Grrl Power #992 – Infernal relationships be like…
Sure, “Fiend” is not a direct equivalent because “Baby Eater” is far too specific. Fiend is more of an umbrella catch-all for half and quarter demon/devil mixes, plus assorted other miscellaneous Infernals.
Demons, even during their wardeathdoom phase, are sociologically hierarchical, and have a need to fight their way as high as they can. It’s a critical survival skill for them to assess their chances of taking on the next higher guy though. Now that demons are coming out of this live and die by tooth claw and giant-metal-vaguely-sword-shaped-thing era into a more civilized society, there’s still an urge to establish your place in whatever hierarchy is prevalent. Of course, this is being twisted into trendy consumer… uh, trends. Like instead of a girl wearing her boyfriend’s letterman jacket or his class ring, a lot of demon girls like being collared. Or the other way around. An Erinyes isn’t going to let herself be seen in a Draegloth’s collar, after all. (Unless the Draegloth is like some nerd who is really good at Cthonic Lore and she needs a tutor and he’s like “Okay, but you have to go on a date with me in my collar… yes, to a different layer of the Abyss where no one will know us. I don’t know, I was thinking the Layer of the Flayed? Yeah, it’s all skin. Like, the ground, the clouds, street lights, rivers. I don’t know how it works. I thought it would be interesting… really? Willikers, that’s great! Hmm? Oh, I don’t know if I can afford a collar that nice… No no! I’ll figure something out!” And Devil Roger Ebert gave the movie a thumbs up.)
Dabbler’s face looks just a little too excited in that last panel. I wasn’t quite sure what I was going for when I started drawing it, maybe like she was trying to bite back a smile, but then just went with the full sadistic grin. She obviously knew what Maxima’s reaction was likely to be.
Tamer: Enhancer 2 – Progress Update:
About 3/4 done with my editing pass. The more recently written chapters need a bit more editing as I haven’t already gone through them a dozen times when I was reading instead of writing.
October’s vote incentive is up! This is a redraw of a comic I did in 2011 I think, but never published. I had originally pictured the comic going through an establishment phase, and then taking occasional breaks from the storylines for little one-off moments like these. Which I guess I could still do. I just got wrapped up in the story telling and forgot.
So Dabbler and Sydney are up late one evening on night watch but Dabbler has just discovered Cinemax…
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I’m sure there’s a not-so-good explanation for this one XD
Sure there is, it’s a simple alt lifestyle relationship thing, just may be a bit tricky getting that explanation past Max. XD
That was my first thought, that it’s Dabbler and she’s into some kink.
My first thought too, except I think she might be into EVERY kink.
I’m really starting to get a Superman vibe from Max, and it’s really making it difficult to want to continue reading, Superman is such a terrible god awful hero, it’s just not interesting or fun when one of the main characters is “invincible to everything, and stronger than everyone forever.” Max is rapidly turning into that.
Totally agree about superman, superman is one of my least liked hero because of that.
And heroes like him, with like traits.
But max CAN be hurt, and do have a little weakness as she can not have all her stats at max at the same time.
Even with all her stats balanced, though, she’s equivalent to Man of Steel-era Supes.
If you’re reading this for the power level calculations, you’re reading for the wrong reasons.
admitedlys Superman does have weaknesses.
Magic, and kryptonite are the two biggest major ones which can kill him, of course kyptonite will kill anyone though it just does superman in quicker.
As for magic it pretty much ignores his near invulnerability so if lets say you stab superman with a magic weapon or shoot him with magic bullet it will harm him like he was a normal person.
He’s also been shown to be vulnerable to a variety of methods of mind control, red sunlight which robs him of his powers and finally extreme physical trauma like the sort darksied and doomsday have inflicted on him in the past.
I am not sure what Max’s weaknesses are however to be honest though I am sure she has them.
We saw in the fight with Kevin that her stats have limits, they are just very high. Max could have and intended to kill her but for help from the team.
Max’s greatest superpower is her friends. She most likely wouldn’t have survived Kevin without their help.
It’s not exactly a weakness to ‘have one other person who might eventually be stronger’ though. Weaknesses are exploitable. :)
Sorry, what? (quick google.) Oh, long-term radiation poisoning. I remember in the silver age, an occasional person would have kryptonite jewelry and not know what it was.
I see Superman and similar characters as a way for the writer to say, “Okay combat is boring so here’s a way to make a character whose challenges are emotional, ethical, or character-interaction driven instead because that’s what I’d rather write.”
And that’s Max, kinda. Her challenges are controlling her temper, controlling her ego, dealing with her ofen-difficult subordinates, trying to conform to the ethical and legal requirements of a branch of military service that is simultaneously law enforcement, and dealing specifically with her own personality conflicts with some of the squad – many of which revolve around some sort of unresolved anger we haven’t seen the sources of, but which are specifically about subordination of females, emotional vulnerability, and gender interaction.
The fact that she’s not very good at all of that *IS* the line of potential character development, weakness, and challenges that face her. She has these conflicts and fairly often loses.
Deciding that she’s some kind of golden-goddess combat monster is a way to set combat-as-a-source-of-character-conflict entirely aside and concentrate on conflict that’s more interesting to write.
I agree, but unfortunately, the common response from the audience tends to be “Why is the combat so boring, and why isn’t it the central part of your story? You’re doing it wrong!”
I completely agree with you about why Superman IS an interesting character.
He’s not my favorite (Supergirl is, because she also has survivor guilt and lives in Superman’s shadow of not feeling ‘good enough’ even though she’s probably stronger and faster than he is, according to Loeb and most other writers during New Earth DC and New 52 DC), but his moral center (being a genuinely good person, who was raised to NOT be a bully, even to villains, who has to deal with trying to NOT succumb to the temptations that others without a moral center would succumb to) MAKES him interesting. The reason the fight with Doomsday was so good was because he had to put everything into it to actually KILL Doomsday – there was simply no way to just make him stop without killing there. Otherwise, Doomsday was literally going to just keep killing EVERYONE. Starting with Lois.
Like Batman said, “Deep down, Clark is a good man. And deep down… I’m not.”
That being said, Maxima is becoming…. less interesting as the story progresses, despite my wanting to like her character and be interested in it. Because in many story arcs, she has been interesting to read. Especially her interactions with Sydney.
Main problem is this part if the list of her challenges that you mentioned:
“Her challenges are controlling her temper, controlling her ego,”
The thing is… she doesnt control her temper, or her ego. It often looks like she barely even tries, or thinks of the consequences, or learns from past consequences. She USUALLY just keeps repeating her single strategy of ‘get angry, and attack’
“dealing with her ofen-difficult subordinates, trying to conform to the ethical and legal requirements of a branch of military service that is simultaneously law enforcement, and dealing specifically with her own personality conflicts with some of the squad – many of which revolve around some sort of unresolved anger we haven’t seen the sources of, but which are specifically about subordination of females, emotional vulnerability, and gender interaction.”
All of this is absolutely on point. Brilliantly said! Maxima is fun to read when she IS having to deal with stuff that she’s not good at. Or, when it does get to combat, she’s most interesting to read when she has to rely on others to help, like Sydney.
The fight with Maxima would have been very boring if the ENTIRE fight was her just brutalizing Vehemence the entire time. It got interesting because the tides shifted. Admittedly, it then got a little annoying because V kept pulling new powers out of nowhere, but when the arc concluded, it reads better than when you’re sitting through the fight 3 strips a week for about a year. :)
With fighting Sciona, I think it was probably the MOST interesting villain she had to go up against. Someone who was not as powerful as her, but a LOT better at strategy and able to continually counter her anyway. Maxima had a few annoying parts during that arc, like when she almost destroyed the bridge by letting her anger get ahead of her by firing a plasma blast at Sciona, which prompted Sciona to use her wings to block it… which caused it to hit the bridge. Mainly because after that happened, Maxima said that ‘Sciona attacked the bridge’ when … no Maxima, you caused the damage to the bridge, not Sciona. Her inability to learn from her mistakes seems to be a regular thing. Which I admit is a character flaw, and that’s good. But if she never learns from it, there’s no character growth, and that’s bad.
“The fact that she’s not very good at all of that *IS* the line of potential character development, weakness, and challenges that face her.”
I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s character development unless she learns from those flaws. But it does make her more interesting than if she had no flaws at all.
“She has these conflicts and fairly often loses.”
She really hasn’t lost very often. Actually, she’s only actually lost or almost lost twice. Once to Vehemence, and once to the Super Mannekiller. And both times, she had to rely on someone else to help her – first Sydney, then Hiro. THAT made her more interesting and made her more relatable because,despite her sheer power, she had to rely on her teammates and friends.
That hasn’t really been the case here at all though.
Then again, AND I WILL ADMIT THIS FOR ANYONE SO THEY CANT SAY I WAS WRONG IN THE FUTURE OBERON, the story arc is not over, and for all I know, this could flip 180 degrees like it did with Vehemence.
I don’t think it will, but it could
Another Shrodinger’s prediction from Pander.
How … predictable.
Are you so lacking in any strength of conviction that you’d rather show yourself as such a wishy-washy type, unwilling to take any kind of position out of a desperate fear of being shown to be wrong?
Wrong, about the upcoming plot of a webcomic.
The horror!
There’s hardly anything less impactful, and yet your fear still paralyses you to the point that you need to make ALL CAPS declarations that you believe in nothing and so can’t be wrong because you have qualified every statement you make six ways from Sunday? I sincerely pity you.
“Another Shrodinger’s prediction from Pander.
How … predictable.”
Yes, how dare I be accurate on the possible routes this will go.
“Are you so lacking in any strength of conviction that you’d rather show yourself as such a wishy-washy type,”
Regretably, when my X-Gene activated, it did not give me telepathic powers. it just gave me the power to not get bothered by annoying people on webcomic forums being insulting. I admit it’s a niche power but it comes in handy here.
“unwilling to take any kind of position out of a desperate fear of being shown to be wrong?”
I think you’re putting way too much emotional investment into the webcomic’s outcome. I don’t make predictions like I’m a fortune teller. I give likely probabilities. And usually there’s at least two.
But I promise after I get my time machine working, I’ll remove one of the possibilities so that it will look like I’m Karnak the Magnificent.
“There’s hardly anything less impactful, and yet your fear still paralyses you”
Do you honestly think I’m scared about predictions not coming true on a webcomic plot?
“to the point that you need to make ALL CAPS declarations that you believe in nothing and so can’t be wrong”
Well it was admittedly an attempt to sideline you from making a very dumb post.
Another prediction failed.
“I sincerely pity you.”
No need. I have it made in the shade, being able to live rent free in your head. :)
I know not anything of you both, I barely scanned the thread as it became a sorta-fight.
However, I don’t know what it was, maybe the short sentences that could fit in a comic balloon in Oberon’s post, or the references to weird super-powers in Pander’s…
I mentally transfigured this sorta-fight into a comic book fight between two super-powered humans!
Oberon and Pander! In glittering spandex!
One shouts, “Are you lacking so much in conviction to be scared of your predictions, Pander? Answer me!”, his voice (hers?) booming through the ruined city, echoing through the ages!
The answer. “Do you honestly think, I’m scared, Oberon? You know nothing… fear? terror? NO! I stand in your way… not in fear, but in hope! Hope that my vision will not come to pass!”
Sun setting in the distance. Close up on Oberon’s face. “I have seen what remains of worlds devoured by the Horrors. I hear the screams of the Darkonian in my sleep. The ruined Palace of Yantu-or, once shining its light through their seven planets, dim and forlorn. Never again. Not earth.”
Pain on Pander’s face. “Oberon, please! I should never have told you of my vision. Dr. Oobi’s experiment is the only chance they have to cure the Red Plague. You can’t stop them!”
“The danger is too great.”
Silence.
“If you lack the will to act, I will.”
Determination. Gritted teeth.
Splash page. Legendary clash in mid-air! BOOOOOM onomatopoeia, all in red! Motion lines, light show! Little yellow box down left stating the final fight will be resolved in another issue. I don’t have enough money for it. I get back to the sweltering heat outside the comic book store. Maybe another day. Another life.
If there is ever a movie of this I would like my role to be played by an amazing actress with incredible emotive ability, like Lucy Liu or Pamela Anderson or Kristen Stewart. Oberon would admittedly have to be played by an actor of unlimited charisma, range, and believability, like Stephen Seagal.
If you really want to try to pass off “it may or may not happen” as ‘accuracy,’ well then bless your heart you go right ahead!
Just realize that “bless your heart” is Southern for “fuck you,” which is all that a mealy-mouthed equivocator such as yourself deserves.
I am assuming that your attitude stems from never being hugged as a child.
Or as an adult.
Yes, presenting the alternate possible paths that a scenario can lead to is accuracy.
“mealy-mouthed equivocator”
This particular part of your unhinged rant is hilarious. :)
Oh, how the fallen have fallen!
You can’t refute that fact that you’re equivocating, ‘predicting’ that things both will and won’t happen in the lamest sort of attempt at ass covering, and so you resort to ad hominem attacks as a distraction.
And that’s all you’re doing here, insulting with nothing said that counters my charges. You’ve instead continued your recent theme of supporting my claims (and again, we have no contract and I cannot be billed when you make my case for me!) by citing facts supporting my arguments. Once again since you appear to be incapable of comprehending this lesson that I have taught you several times already: You do not get to claim accuracy when you ‘predict’ that something both may or may not happen. Regardless of the outcome, you are wrong.
I also resort to insults, but you’ll note that they never stand alone. I am always more than capable of presenting a factual argument to devastate my debate opponents. I don’t expect a failed lawyer or a faux lawyer such as yourself to understand this, so just accept that it is so and save yourself a lot of confusion.
Delivering insults to persons like yourself who fail on so many levels that you need to look up the word “fail” and yet still manage to misuse it is just a delicious frosting on the cake of your failure.
“You can’t refute that fact that you’re equivocating, ‘predicting’ that things both will and won’t happen in the lamest sort of attempt at ass covering, and so you resort to ad hominem attacks as a distraction.”
Generally an ad hominem attack requires responding to someone who’s making an actual point in order to call it an ad hominem attack. Not responding to a string of insults.
Also you’re using the word equivocating wrong. That requires using ambiguous language. If anything, I’m too verbose and specific on multiple possible routes. But I wouldnt expect you to understand that.
As you are incredibly stupid.
See… that last bit would be an ad hominem attack, if I was responding to something other than you just making insults and trying to make an actual point about a topic in the comic subject matter :)
“And that’s all you’re doing here, insulting with nothing said that counters my charges”
I literally have no idea what your charges even are because all you basically do is make insults.
“You do not get to claim accuracy when you ‘predict’ that something both may or may not happen. Regardless of the outcome, you are wrong.”
Yes I do. :) And I’m not predicting a yes/no. I’m giving a range of future possibilities. As we see in the next strip, for example, while I gave a range of probabilities here, as did other people, no one guessed that succubi are actually descended from artificial life form flesh golems.
If there is a horse race with 20 horses, and you guess that 3 of them have the best chance of winning, and one of those three do win, then you are accurate. You’d be more accurate if you narrowed it down to two or one, but you’re still accurate.
“I also resort to insults, but you’ll note that they never stand alone. ”
Actually you resort to insults because you’re not intelligent, mature, or respectful enough to give well-formed arguments. You’re basically Morton Downey Jr. trying to debate Aristotle.
“I am always more than capable of presenting a factual argument to devastate my debate opponents”
You almost never give any factual arguments, actually. And when you ‘cite’ things, you tend to cite YOURSELF as proof.
“I don’t expect a failed lawyer or a faux lawyer such as yourself”
You’ve already seen the diploma and bar certification. Also, you could always google things that I say to see that I’m right. Maybe use something other than wikipedia though. Not exactly academically approved.
“Delivering insults to persons like yourself who fail on so many levels that you need to look up the word “fail” and yet still manage to misuse it is just a delicious frosting on the cake of your failure.”
You really need to think up better insults. That one was REALLY difficult to parse and it feels like you’re trying way too hard to ‘zing’ me.
You’re hopeless. Equivocating is the perfect word to use for someone, like you, who is “predicting” that something either will happen or not happen.
Read the part after the word ‘or’ which is used to separate alternatives: “avoid committing oneself.”
You avoid committing yourself by calling both a win and a loss.
It becomes sad, like kicking a baby, when you continuously use examples which only serve to support my arguments.
I hope you don’t charge much as a “lawyer,” because you’ve demonstrated over and over and over again that you can’t make and support a point, and instead provide your debate opponent with support for their own side.
A lawyer who does that deserves disbarment for failing in their duty to promote their client. In this case your client is yourself, which goes to show that the saying that a lawyer who represents themselves has an idiot for a client is an accurate one.
“You’re hopeless.”
Most people here do not like you because you are a mean and ignorant person.
“Equivocating is the perfect word to use for someone, like you, who is “predicting” that something either will happen or not happen.”
I’m actually just giving multiple possibilities of how something might turn out, since the progress of the comic, like all webcomics, is slow. You are VERY fixated on this for some reason, and feel the need to be as much of a jerk as possible. It’s sort of sad, but I’m assuming you’re socially awkward in real life and don’t know how to talk to other people without insults.
“Read the part after the word ‘or’ which is used to separate alternatives: “avoid committing oneself.”
I have committed myself – to a set of possible outcomes.
But honestly, if I was to not commit myself fully, would that not be a good thing? It means I’m not full of myself and leave open the possibility of being wrong. Occasionally. With stuff that involves predicting the future.
“You avoid committing yourself by calling both a win and a loss.”
I was a bit more precise than that. And the reason why one possibility got so many more posts was because there were more arguments about that possibility. If people had argued the other possibility, then I would have had more posts about that instead.
“It becomes sad, like kicking a baby,”
Don’t kick babies.
“when you continuously use examples which only serve to support my arguments.”
They don’t support your arguments, except in your own mind.
“I hope you don’t charge much as a “lawyer,””
Not sure why you use the quotes when you know I am a lawyer. And I charge depending on what I am doing for the client. Sometimes it’s a flat fee, sometimes it’s hourly. And for a few clients, they have me on retainer. The only thing I don’t do is a contingency fee basis, because most of my work is contracts and intellectual property, and I don’t tend to do personal injury law because I find it distasteful and it becomes a slog to get payment after you win.
Also I am pretty sure I charge more than you can afford. :)
” because you’ve demonstrated over and over and over again that you can’t make and support a point”
To be fair, in most court cases, if you were the other side, you’d already be in jail or fined heavily for a lack of court decorum and spewing insults instead of relevant opinions and facts. Also, there would be a judge who would be telling you to be quiet.
“and instead provide your debate opponent with support for their own side.”
You’re again using yourself as your own citation of proof.
“A lawyer who does that deserves disbarment for failing in their duty to promote their client.”
I think Tom would be quite happy to have me as his attorney, since I’m a zealous advocate, and I don’t let personal biases get in the way of making a coherent and consistent defense or offense on behalf of my client.
You’d probably start fighting with your client and get fired, or start sabotaging your client and get disbarred and sued into oblivion.
“lawyer who represents themselves has an idiot for a client is an accurate one.”
Trying to figure out how that saying has anything to do with this.
I’m not representing myself. I’m ‘representing’ a fictional character, Mr. Tom Thothogoth. :)
Also not sure what the stakes are on this.
> Most people here do not like you because you are a mean and ignorant person.
You know that appealing to an unspoken and untested “opinion of the people” is one of the Umberto Eco’s 14 signs of fascism, right?
“You know that appealing to an unspoken and untested “opinion of the people” is one of the Umberto Eco’s 14 signs of fascism, right?”
No, I just know what most people think of Oberon after several years of commenting on the webcomic. Because he gets insulting with almost everyone he responds to. He even makes insults to the author of the webcomic.
Also not ‘appealing’ to anything. Just pointing it out to him since no one ever bothers to outright say it to him when he’s behaving like this. Which is frequently. He can keep on being an ass if he wants. It’s not like I know him RL or care to know him RL. I don’t even particularly care about most of his opinions, since they usually involve insulting someone – whether DaveB, or Guesticules, or a number of other people, or most recently me.
Just pointing out that he’s not doing himself any favors by constantly insulting if he wants his opinions to be taken seriously.
“The sun will rise tomorrow morning, or it won’t” is accurate, because it’s exhaustive, but provides no useful information, also because it’s exhaustive. “If the sun doesn’t rise tomorrow, it’s because a giant wolf ate it” would be a useful prediction, because even though it allows for multiple possibilities, it excludes a great many, and includes some very specific ones.
““The sun will rise tomorrow morning, or it won’t” is accurate, because it’s exhaustive, but provides no useful information, also because it’s exhaustive.”
True, but what I was giving probabilities for were a few possibilities among a MUCH larger range of possibilities, whereas ‘the sun will rise or it won’t is giving 100% of the possibilities. Also, my ‘predictions’ are still more specific than something that broadly defined as ‘the sun will rise’ or ‘the sun won’t rise.’
“If the sun doesn’t rise tomorrow, it’s because a giant wolf ate it” would be a useful prediction, because even though it allows for multiple possibilities, it excludes a great many, and includes some very specific ones.”
Correct. Also if you give multiple reasons WHY the sun won’t rise, that would also be more accurate if it comes to pass, like ‘The sun won’t rise because a wolf ate it, or the sun will rise but we won’t see it because there’s going to be a lunar eclipse, or the sun will rise but we won’t see it because the clouds will be overcast and block our view of the sun.
That’s more accurate, even though I gave multiple possibilities.
Pander: Well… You kinda just said that events would happen a certain way, or they’d be completely different. That’s pretty exhaustive.
Ehhhh not really. I said they’d happen a certain way, or they’d happen a different certain way. It’s not actually exhaustive.
That is true: Superman is vulnerable to magic. Actually, he’s incredibly vulnerable because he usually doesn’t factor in for its existence when he goes into fights. That’s why he needs to work in a team of lesser-abled supers. They provide the backup that’s needed when magic is called into play.
I recently read about an encounter he and some of the JL have with Cheetah. Wonder Woman can fight her because she knows what Cheetah is capable of but the first time Superman meets her in battle, Cheetah bites him in the neck. He immediately transformed into a violent, mindless Cheetah-hybrid that was stopped only by the use of a horn by the tribe that originated the Cheetah. Cheetah was stopped by this horn as well and fled the scene.
That being stated, I have no problems with Max giving this arrogant Tommy Boy demon/fiend a bodily slam and wrenching off his horns.
I’ve found the “Superman is boring” trope rarely comes from people who actually read Superman comics.
It would be like me saying “Wolverine is boring because he’s all ‘SNICKT BUB RAGE BLOOD IGOTBETTER!'”
T’aint true for 75% of their stories, is what I’m saying.
Very much this. In the hands of a decent writer Superman is a very interesting character to follow. I highly recommend What’s So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way? which was adapted into the excellent Superman Vs. The Elite movie as a showcase of why Superman is a great character.
Just like Batman can fall into the meme of always prepared for anything and literally can’t be beat when in the hands of a bad writer, or Booster Gold a psychotic idiot in the incompetent hands of character assassin Tom King, a badly written Superman isn’t interesting.
You don’t talk to enough people who “actually” read Superman comics. I followed Superman, Superboy, and Supergirl as a wee lad. They were the comics I “grew out of” first, migrating to almost exclusively Marvel titles as a teen and 20s young man.
Michael agrees with you and places the blame on writing skill. And he may be right, but remember that I was following three different Superman titles, and lost interest in them at pretty much the same time. If it was the writing then you’d be claiming that DC put their crappy writers at the helm of three of their flagship products, and that doesn’t make much sense.
< hot take > Maybe that’s because DC doesn’t have any good writers. < /hot take >
I’m mostly kidding. Mostly.
“If it was the writing then you’d be claiming that DC put their crappy writers at the helm of three of their flagship products, and that doesn’t make much sense.”
If you read more of Tom King’s Batman, you might agree about how DC does sometimes put crappy writers at the helmof their flagship products. :)
I think the problem is less Superman is boring in his own right, and more that when he interacts with the other heroes in stuff like the Justice League, his absurd level of power requires him to constantly get pelted with green rocks and magic or else take over the whole event and relegate the rest of an otherwise very capable cast to crowd scene extras.
His own series focuses on things other than combat, like his ideals and the ways that his incredible capacity for superpowered violence isn’t ultimately the solution to most of his actual problems. He has personal problems, he has to deal with people around him, and he has to confront the fact that even as powerful as he is, he cannot singlehandedly save everyone.
In the Justice League, he’s one of roughly a dozen heroes called on to stop world-level threats on a regular basis, and is the most overtly powerful of all of them. And that forces the focus on “fight the villain” which is Superman’s *worst* point narratively.
Batman, similarly, is at his best when he’s shown researching the latest threat to Gotham, preparing a counter-strategy, and then using well-trained but ultimately still human levels of power and a handful of gadgetry designed to give him the edge he needs to disable the threat.
Batman shown pulling out the gadgets without being shown preparing them just looks like the writer is pulling deus ex machina out of their ass. Like sure, we know that Batman with prep time always wins, that’s the meme. But that prepwork has to be shown onscreen to mean anything, or else it’s just a total yawnfest of a foregone conclusion.
And now! Now we sidewind back around to Maxima!
Maxima’s problem is that she’s the team’s resident flying brick of “fuck off”. Her presumed weakness in a fight is that she can’t max all her stats at once, and can only engage one threat at a time, but she’s practiced with her power to where she can adjust it on the fly, and you have to react very fast to be able to catch her overreaching with her strength up and not her defense. So she’s definitely in the “her conflicts aren’t in combat” camp.
But her most frequent conflicts as a character are… What, having to be a nearly maternal figure to her team? Her discomfort with social situations? The fact that she very much has the “woman in a man’s world” mentality and feminism is a hot-button issue for her? She’s kind of a flat character and at no point have these conflicts done anything for her or gone anywhere. Best we really get out of Maxima is the “straight man” for the rest of the team being comedic.
She isn’t shown managing her stat pool for her power, because it just kind of fluctuates to whatever she needs it to be in combat. We can safely just assume that her power is distributed to precisely where she needs it at any given time. Maxima has had her power for too long to have a “how do I shot web?” moment, and none of her opponents have been shown to be able to capitalize on the moment she adjusts it.
I disagree. Superman is often boring because he is written poorly. His greatest weaknesses come from his love of others, his emotional fragility, his relationships. Lois and Clark did an excellent job, imo, and remains one of my favorite TV shows. In one episode Clark’s powers were transferred to Lois and there was a huge disaster. She came back home completely devastated because even with all of her new speed and power she couldn’t save everyone and Clark had to explain, in a heart-wrenching moment, that not even he can save everyone, even if he did nothing but be Superman 24/7.
Maxima is written much more solidly than Superman normally is. Her weakness is her team. You get hints that behind the mask she’d rather take on everything herself but she knows she would be a poor leader, a poor friend, and a bad officer if she didn’t let them grow and develop and the only way to do that is to imperil them. You get a view of this when Sydney was missing in space for a month and Maxima was climbing the walls over it.
Superman is a Paragon. Somebody with strong convictions to do good where and when he can.
Those characters are interesting in stories not in and of themselves, but how they affect the people around them. The interesting superman stories are where his convictions of what is the right thing to do in a situation are at odds with what the people around him believe he should do. Because it creates a dynamic that cannot be brute-forced into submission.
Being the OG OP superman’s fight scenes are never going to be interesting as he can shrug off just about everything (plus it makes him ridiculously prone to the Worf effect). The long list of weaknesses that were retconned into his many origin stories are all attempts to tone down his power to more relatable levels.
But a good writer will simply put him against problems that cannot be solved with force or speed (or laser eyes like every other supervillain’s shark ;)) Lex Luthor is Superman’s foil because he cannot just beat him up to make the problem go away.
The more poweful la superhero is, the more psychological his or her problems have to be to remain interesting. Otherwise you end up with shark jumping and ridiculous scenes where two opponents are throwing galaxies at each other, and at least once each month the villain of the week almost destroys reality. (but the already overpowered hero pulls another escalation out of the power hyperinflation curve and saves the day in increasingly ludicrous ways).
It doesn’t help that the whole premise of ‘nobody recognises Clark Kent as superman because of his vanity glasses’ is so laughable.
But none of this makes superman an inherently bad character. He is just a clear example of Sturgeon’s Law in action (90% of everything is garbage)
It’s Superman’s muscular control, of his face muscles, that subconsciously, alters his face. He wondered about that , himself, and stood in front of a mirror and watched his face change.
That is just one of the several different explanations that were retconned in later on. Another, from the Silver Age days, is that he was subconsciously hypnotizing everyone through the Kryptonian lenses of his glasses so that they would see him as dramatically scrawnier than he physically is.
A large part of the writing issues is the 90s and onward push toward one world politics and wishywashy morals. Prior to that he was a paragon highly moral american citizen, and by undercutting that foundation he has had less to be. Cap shares sa lot of the same identity crisis on the marvel side.
Since when was Max, in any major battle, invincible to everything?
V almost killed her, Sciona escaped her and split Syd from the team, and Deus outsmarts her.
Outsmarting Maxi isn’t that difficult: Sydney has done that more than thrice :P
V and the Super Mannekiller were the only times she’s not been invincible to everything in the comic, so far.
She was definitely invincible to anything Sciona was throwing at her (except for the Super Mannekiller).
And Sciona did not split Sydney from the team on purpose. That was not remotely intentional. The Alari souls were just trying to get through the portal before it closed.
We’re not sure if Maxima would have been invulnerable to the Squidwards. I hope she isn’t, because it makes them a LOT less interesting as a threat if she can just beat them without strategy like Sydney needed to use. And even with Sydney, she realized she had to leave because if she stayed, they’d eventually figure a way to counter her ONE strategy which worked with teleporting…. and then she would be dead. If Maxima is just able to blast them to pieces and their shimmer shields don’t work against Maxima’s powers, then…. what’s the real point of them as a threat. It’s just more punching down, and it would make something powerful and exciting and menacing into something boring.
And like G said, it’s pretty easy to outsmart Maxima because Maxima relies mostly on ‘being the absolute strongest and most powerful person anywhere’ even when she’s not. As we saw with Vehemence.
I pointed this out when Pander was trying to insist that Maxima isn’t the most powerful being in the Grrlverse.
She most definitely is, for the set of the beings within the Grrlsverse that we know about.
Pander also listed the Superman weaknesses just as Aline1 does below. To which I responded just as Aline1 concluded: Pointing out that Superman has weaknesses only makes things worse, since we know of no such weaknesses with Maxima.
Maxima is set up to be a constant Deux ex Maxima, because she has the Chekhov’s Gun power of “You don’t know how powerful I am.” When demonstrating her power at the presser she laughed at a suggestion that she went full out. When testing Sydney’s shield she straight up said that she wasn’t using her full power. Even when blasting the Fel Supercarrier she only said something like “I’ve always wanted to cut lose like this” and not “Whew, that was my best shot and barely got through their shields.” This continues to leave ambiguous what might be her top power level.
Maxima is fast enough to move while inside of a time stasis machine.
She is stronger than anyone we know, including an 80′ tall demon/devil hybrid, several alien “supers,” an Alari blood mage, said Alari blood mage’s robots, and every super on Earth. She regularly hands off fights with supers who seem to have all of the “brick” characteristics (super strong, super tough) to her subordinates such as Anvil or Hiro, as if they are beneath her notice.
She is tougher than anything we are aware of, never taking anything more than a broken nose or some clothing damage from even the most dangerous of opponents physical or explosive abilities.
RegalKain isn’t wrong, s/he/they make a very good set of points about how Maxima has been set up in the story.
Pander argued that Maxima wasn’t the most powerful being in the Grrlverse, and seemed to think that Thothamoth was going to be the thing that demonstrated that Maxima wasn’t the most powerful thing in the Grrlverse. And then Pander was proven wrong in the very next comic.
Odd, it usually doesn’t take that long for Pander to be wrong. She’s usually wrong immediately at the point of communicating her thesis, without any need at all for later events to further cement her many errors. But that’s beside the point.
That point being that a Deus ex Maxima character ruins the fun of a story by eliminating any possible narrative tension:
“Oh noes! Here comes an 80′ tall demon looking for world domination with an army of demons behind him just waiting to invade our hapless Earth! Whatever will our heroes do to prevent this calamity?”
*Yawn*
The narrative tension doesn’t depend on uncertain combat outcomes, because the comic is fundamentally not about combat.
This is true as well. Most of Grrlpower is NOT about combat outcomes, it’s usually about the ‘day in the life of a super’ stuff instead.
Although the narrative of Maxima just stomping everyone, including the ones that have been set up and foreshadowed as actual threats does make for a more boring narrative.
So I am forced to agree with Oberon’s last paragraph, even though the rest of his diatribe was just Oberon being rude and overcompensating in his Oberon-ness.
It does also show, though, that he still doesn’t know much about what makes Superman an interesting hero. Superman has morals and, deep down, is just a genuinely good person (as Batman said in Hush, compared to Batman himself, who is not), and holds himself to a higher standard of behavior, because if he does not, he is no longer representing the symbol of which people see him. He’d be betraying the legacy of the House of El. Not to mention the morality instilled in him by Ma and Pa Kent. Maxima is… not doing that. She’s currently sort of acting a little like a psycho with anger problems. Which makes her more boring, admittedly, as just a power fantasy and not the well-fleshed out character she can be in some other story arcs. Plus she doesn’t seem to ever learn from her past behavior to improve herself, which is admittedly irritating to read because there’s a distinct lack of character development then.
But again, the story arc isnt over, let alone the entire webcomic.
Agreed. Max’s total lack of self-doubt means she’s convinced she doesn’t have to learn or change since she’s already the best there is. In someone so powerful, that attitude, combined with her very real anger management issues is actually very scary. Just like Sydney’s combination of immense (and growing!) power and near-total lack of impulse control is a disaster waiting to happen.
My impression is that Grrlpower, while pretty lighthearted and optimistic, is intended to be a more realistic take on comic book tropes, and examine both their implications and solutions to them. Max isn’t supposed to be a virtuous paragon, but an example of the consequences of a real person having that much power. It’s not so much about her internal moral struggle, but about what the appropriate legal mechanisms are to constrain her or hold her accountable.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying here Torabi. Just that her being basically unstoppable and always punching down is not as narratively satisfying as when she has to get help from her team as well, or where the few threats that should exist are actual threats.
I wasn’t bored by Maxi’s intervention here. I was very amused by the possibility that she might rip off Thoth’s…horns and give them to Dabbler as souvenirs. But we didn’t have that happen (dangit) because Dabbler immediately stopped her and launched into her explanation of Thoth’s supposedly pejorative term.
Your statement, whether accurate or not (and I’m not disputing you, just pointing out that it simply does not matter) doesn’t contradict anything in the post you replied to.
You’ve instead decided that the Deus ex Maxima is irrelevant because combat isn’t the focus. And that may be accurate for you, but it obviously isn’t accurate for those who have expressed their discontent regarding Maxima’s lack of any realistic challenge.
And it’s even worse than described. Pander points out:
But when Maxima is constantly shown to be vastly more powerful than her team mates and everything else she encounters, then any credible threat to Maxima is going to laugh at the rest of Archon’s supers.
The only help they can credibly offer will be some contrived rock/paper/scissors situation where their power “just happens” to be especially potent vs some opponent.
“And it’s even worse than described. Pander points out:”
Thank goodness that I’ve said something of which Oberon approves. I can sleep better now. :)
Nice, sarcasm!!!
Danke. :)
Even a stopped clock can oversleep the alarm twice per day. Or something like that.
An alarm can be set for many, many, many times in a day.
Also generally you only can oversleep once per day. In the morning when you wake up. Unless you take many naps each day.
It’s so adorable when you try to be witty with quips, even when you get them wrong :)
The real threats in the story are opponents that can’t or shouldn’t be tackled with overwhelming force, rendering Max kind of useless. Just like how Halo’s truesight orb is useless against most common disguises, Max’s powers are inappropriate against most criminals. Most comic books have a ridiculous number of melodramatic supervillains to keep their heroes occupied, but that’s one of the unrealistic aspects I think Grrlpower is intended to challenge. The goal isn’t to invent a more powerful villain to be Max’s equal, but to think of problems that can’t be solved with overwhelming force.
“I pointed this out when Pander was trying to insist that Maxima isn’t the most powerful being in the Grrlverse.”
Ummm because she isn’t. She’s one of the most powerful supers. But even there, not even necessarily the MOST powerful. And they’ve already shown that there are others from outside Earth who can fight Maxima to a standstill, like Dabbler.
“Pointing out that Superman has weaknesses only makes things worse, since we know of no such weaknesses with Maxima.”
Maxima not having weaknesses (which she might have, but we haven’t really seen much of) wouldnt mean she’s the most powerful being in the universe.
I pointed out that she IS susceptible to mental domination, in the Super Mannekiller fight. I pointed out that she almost died against Vehemence. I pointed out that Atomic Bombshell was able to hurt her, even when not using her biggest attack. I pointed out that the Super Mannekiller explosion got through her armor. I pointed out that the slow time machine was able to temporarily stop her, and the problem with the alien bounty hunters is they did not have enough intel on her to know how to deal with her better, plus the stasis pod was delayed from getting to them by Sydney.
“Maxima is set up to be a constant Deux ex Maxima, because she has the Chekhov’s Gun power of “You don’t know how powerful I am.””
I feel like the takeaway of this encounter with Tom isnt that Maxima is even more powerful, but that Tom is a wimp and being played as a buttmonkey now, despite being foreshadowed as a challenge. It might be bad writing, but I’ll know more about if it is or isn’t once the story arc ends.
“Thothamoth was going to be the thing that demonstrated that Maxima wasn’t the most powerful thing in the Grrlverse.”
That was being foreshadowed as what would happen. Which now clearly is not the case. Although not sure what will happen next. If it’s just ‘Maxima stomps continuously’ then yeah – it’s bad writing, not to mention pretty boring as a narrative.
Also, it’s hard to tell me I was wrong when I actually gave BOTH options as possibilities – one that Maxima would, indeed, stomp, or the other where Tom winds up being a major challenge. The latter would have been a LOT more interesting. I pretty much covered my butt by giving both possibilities though in my prediction. The only prediction that got pushback, though, was that Tom might be a challenge. Re-read my posts.
“Odd, it usually doesn’t take that long for Pander to be wrong. She’s usually wrong immediately at the point of communicating her thesis,”
To quote Illy, citation needed.
“But that’s beside the point.”
It isnt really looking like your post has had much of a point to begin with. :)
“That point being that a Deus ex Maxima character ruins the fun of a story by eliminating any possible narrative tension:”
This is true. Well at least you said one thing that I agree with, even though you couldnt just say that and wanted to try to rag on me like a child first. It’s okay, you got to a point eventually. :) Good on you Oberon!
Manekiller: Not a scratch (the laser might have scratched her or it might have been an art artifact, but we never see that arm again, and any hypothetical injury was never mentioned nor did it slow Maxima down in the slightest. Any injury without any impact on a character is not a ‘real’ injury as far as story telling goes.
Atomic Bombshell: Not a scratch
Vehemence: Broken nose. And didn’t impact Maxima in the slightest, so the rule of “no impact means no true injury applies. It was used to make Vehemence appear to be a threat.
So a broken nose is counted by you as “almost died,” and a very few cases of “she said ‘ow'” (and had some clothing damage which was far more because the author likes nekkid ladies in his fiction than because Maxima got ‘hurt’) are your only examples of how Maxima isn’t the most powerful being in the Grrlverse.
We have no contract, so don’t think you’re going to be able to bill me for making my point for me so very well!
And as far as your request for a citation of you being immediately wrong, I’ve pointed this out numerous times already. Including in the post you just responded to. Don’t put your failure in reading comprehension on me, feel free to revisit the many times this has been done for you already. You don’t get to hand out homework to others just because your memory is faulty or because you lack the self reflection to accept your faulty logic.
And when you pull crap like “I pretty much covered my butt by giving both possibilities” you just make anything you say meaningless. It may seem great and all that you “covered your ass,” but being both wrong and right doesn’t mean that you weren’t wrong. I know you like to think that you present your arguments in a clever manner, but when you fall back on making Schrodinger’s predictions out of a fear of being wrong you really don’t have much of value to say. Any fool can ‘predict’ both that something will either happen or not happen, as you have just proven.
As but one example, I’ve heard even as a layman that a lawyer will address the jury and describe what the facts will show and what conclusion they will be able to arrive at. Most people will have seen something like this in any police procedural or courtroom drama. Your approach here would seem to indicate that you think you’ll be successful in court if you say to the jury something like this:
“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the facts of this case will prove to you, or perhaps not, that my client is innocent. After hearing all of these facts presented you will surely conclude that my client is innocent, or possibly that he is guilty. I’ve covered my ass by presenting you with both possibilities, so you can’t say that I’m wrong. Or probably you will conclude that I am wrong, because what kind of a lawyer makes an argument like this in the first place? But please believe me: I am a clever, clever lawyer with great skills in logic and persuasion!” Or quite probably you are not.
And yeah, I know I’m opening myself up to an accusation of strawmanning you, but I’m not the one who claimed “I pretty much covered my butt by giving both possibilities.” That is a direct quote from you. All I’ve done is to point out using an hypothetical example exactly how ridiculous that claim actually is.
Citation(s) provided.
I’ve been keeping up with this thread as time has waned, and I have to say, this is basically what I’m getting at, I quickly typed something up in my disdain (It is in fact, my first time ever having commented on this comic.) So let me be a bit more in depth.
1. The comic isn’t meant to be combat related. V/Kevin appeared in #249 (Sep 15 2014) , after this “combat” had been going on since #200 (Mar 27, 2014) the combat finishes up and ends #286 (Jan 22 2015), so this not combat focused comic, had nothing but combat for a span of 9-10months straight. I started reading way, way back before Sydney was even in ArcSwat, so try to appreciate my view point, that for nearly a year, all we had was combat, and we’ve had mini-combat several times since that time. The only reason Max didn’t just come in like a wrecking ball, and “win” the fight at the restaurant immediately, is because it was a field test for the team, if Max had just near instantly wiped it up (Which she’s shown to be capable of) V/Kevin would have never gotten to that level of “dangerous” and she could have just removed limbs until all was well in the world.
It’s what I call Artificial danger, or self-made danger. My issue with most “Mainstream” heroes, (Like Superman, Batman, The Flash) is in their own pocket of the world (IE: Their own comics) they are acceptable, but when you look at the greater whole (IE Justice League) it starts to rapidly fall apart. Everything Lex Luthor has done after the first, or second time Superman “caught” him, is now Superman’s fault. It’s obvious Lex can’t be reasoned with, can’t be rehabilitated, but continues to destroy cities, kill people, nefarious deeds, yadda, yadda. Same with Batman and Joke, Flash and Reverse Flash. “Combat” doesn’t work in a group setting, when one person in that group can trivialize 99% of encounters. Worse, is when a lot of those encounters are because of the heroes “bravado” or some moral code, where in they somehow think “not” killing the Joker, is acceptable with his many digit death count, at a certain point the moral code stops being something I believe. That’s my current issue with “Combat” in Grrl Power, I’m never worried about the safety of the characters, because Max will just swoop in and win the day, or Sydney and the bad guys won’t die because it all has to have a nice bow on it. Or they are nameless goons (AKA The Fel ship) and it has no impact that they die.
2. Emotional Focus Point. Everyone loves a good fight scene, everyone likes flashing colors, and amazingly well drawn super hero fights, GrrlPower mostly delivers on this, my only failing point for it, is there is never a sense of urgency (Same with as watching say, The Flash on the CW) because Maxima, or Sydney will win through the power of love, friendship and plot, imagine for a moment.
If that V fight had gone slightly differently, and Sydney when she stepped into her bubble with Kevin, had been seriously, or badly injured (Like hospitalized bad) suddenly the combat isn’t nearly as important, and despite it being such a long-running part of the comic, it falls away from the reader as soon as the fight is over, Max never approaches combat in the same way again, because despite being “a soldier” she has a soft spot for Sydney, Sydney has to seriously consider if this is something she wants/can handle, and can’t be so reckless. She doesn’t have to die, but we spent 9+ months on a battle, we couldn’t spend a month or two, on recovery and watching what it did to the characters? But no, instead everything is all hunky dory, peachy keen and we’re back to whacky antics as usual. You want me to believe that combat isn’t the focus, but the vast majority of things outside of combat (I’d say 60%) is filler fluff, and I 100% appreciate it, and enjoy reading it, but it always feels like the comic is just waiting until the next fight because of it.
I guess what I’m getting at, is if you want to say the comic isn’t combat focused, and Max isn’t a combat focused character, than the comic seriously needs to more deeply explore consequences of fights, and of their lives, right now it’s just a lot of care free living, the recent arc with Sydney getting whammied in time, is a great example of what I mean, the combat was short lived because she’s the main character and plot will prevail, but the follow up PTSD, was an actually GOOD story arc, it showed there were consequences to her actions, it showed a “human” side to Max as well.
3. Invulnerable. As Oberon has pointed out, Max has never been in a life-threatening situation or “nearly died”, with exception to Sydney, no one else in her crew, has ever been in a life-threatening situation or “nearly died”, there have in fact, been almost no significant injuries to the ArcSwat team at all. (One is partially deaf, one lost a toe, and Sydney got some PTSD from being alien worlded) so despite this being a universe where there are entities that can confetti tanks, the crew is mostly unharmed, and mostly good to go for more whacky antics. Max being the paragon of them all in this regard (Except I guess Achilles whose power is literally just invincibility.). A scratch her, some scuff marks on the clothes there, losing my favorite shirt (Oh no, be a shame if we had to see some cheesecake or beefcake because of it tee-hee) doesn’t count to me as a consequence for battle.
4. Shortcomings. For someone who has spent a life in the military, is a commanding officer, and chides her subordinates on collateral damage, Max appears to give exactly 0 fucks about any of it, when it comes to handling a situation, Thothogoth threatened invasion, great sure, no problem that can warrant a stern talking to (Wasn’t that hostile since it was readily disarmed with a simple exchange, a singular show of power, and succubus lovin.) his assistant has shown they can get to the world on their own, so now, when he mentions the world “slave” she goes hulk smash mode, despite the assistant being there. I dunno about you, but if I was in “an army” and my CO was getting attacked by having their face literally crushed (By the way, Max has no idea about this creature, so for all she knows, she could literally be killing him right now, and doesn’t seem to care at all about that, because of the word “slave” ) I’d 100% tell my forces to immediately portal through and begin attacking, this planet is obviously extremely hostile. Max doesn’t care that her attacking Thothogoth could potentially get her team mates harmed or killed by any army he might have, she doesn’t care that it could in fact spark an actual full scale hostile invasion of force (Instead of just a power point presentation.) she also is getting angry on behalf of an alien, that just moments ago, was banging the entity she is now crushing the skull of, mind you, all this over a single word. “Slave” she is an extremely volatile super hero, and her actions seemingly have had no consequences all this time.
I guess my point here, is that her shortcomings. (Extremely volatile, short temper, quick to anger and attack. ) Are sort of the opposite of what you’d expect from one of, the most powerful super heroes on the planet (Which, in universe have been shown to be some of the most powerful beings in existence, given everyone’s reaction to the Fel Ship incident.) in addition to her also being in the military life for most/all of her adult life. But we’re expected to believe she has an exemplary record, and hasn’t just confettied something important before? Does she just hulk smash racists who say racist shit? Cause that’s basically what she is doing right now, hulk smashing a foreign diplomat for words.
P.S. I’ve read a lot of comics, my inherent issue with “Superman being boring” is that most of his problems are self-imposed, and he is the definition of a Mary Sue character, it’s boring to read when there are no stakes on the table ever.
One quick note, but Barry Allen actually did kill Reverse Flash. Death tends not to stick with villains in general, see Joker Immunity, but is explicitly part of Reverse Flash’s situation and killing him is at best a temporary measure.
As for Lex Luthor it is a bit more nuanced than just he’s evil and should be killed. Lex can contribute so much to humanity it is difficult to write him off completely. He has gone heroic several times and even with his selfish bias against Superman he does have some legitimate points. Lex rarely has plans that are outright destructive to humanity and usually just benefit himself more or hurt Superman somehow. It is not uncommon for a situation to arise where Lex is the best or only way to save the day even if he is in villain mode. I think in universe it is accepted that his value alive outweighs the benefits of removing him from the board entirely. Lots of stories back that up and it is mostly a few heroes, like Superman and Batman, plus us as readers that have the view of Lex as truly evil. While in universe he can be elected president, get full pardons for saving the world, and even join the Justice League.
Joker… Well, yeah, keeping Joker alive is insanity. However, he can’t be killed in any way that Batman can feel responsible for. Batman killing someone directly, usually Joker or Joe Chill, is the dam breaking and him going full Punisher in any story it occurs. Batman is extremely aware of this and goes to often insane lengths to keep Joker and to a lesser degree other villains alive. If he could prevent a death and didn’t then he, more or less justifiably, believes he’ll become an even worse monster. If Joker dies and Batman had no way to prevent it then he carries on more or less as usual, such as in Injustice. Batman is not sane, so while keeping Joker alive is insane, a Batman off his rails is easily a bigger threat to the world and beyond. There is no shortage of stories where Batman’s actions put the world or multiverse in jeopardy and that’s without him trying to be destructive. (See Tower of Babel, Brother Eye, Future’s End, and Dark Nights Metal as major examples.)
“Manekiller: Not a scratch (the laser might have scratched her or it might have been an art artifact, but we never see that arm again, and any hypothetical injury was never mentioned nor did it slow Maxima down in the slightest. Any injury without any impact on a character is not a ‘real’ injury as far as story telling goes.”
I wasn’t talking about the laser. I was talking about how it was able to mesmerize her, and the only reason it did not succeed completely was a crack on its lens. So apparently Maxima may be susceptible to mind control.
“Atomic Bombshell: Not a scratch”
Incorrect. Maxima said it popped her back and hurt, but she wasnt going to let Atomic Bombshell know that. And the shaped charge was not even the biggest blast she could make.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-240-shock-and-aw-come-on/
(panel 5)
“Vehemence: Broken nose. And didn’t impact Maxima in the slightest, so the rule of “no impact means no true injury applies. It was used to make Vehemence appear to be a threat.”
Oh I see the problem. You didn’t actually READ THE COMIC.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-274-master-sham/
Sydney on 276: “Oh my god Stop fighting! You’re killing Maxima!”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-279-high-risk-reversal/
Maxima: “If I don’t think of something it’s only a matter of time!”
She didn’t think of something btw. Sydney thought of something.
“So a broken nose is counted by you as “almost died,””
No. Almost dying counts as almost dying.
“We have no contract, so don’t think you’re going to be able to bill me for making my point for me so very well!”
I think you should probably actually read the comic before you make comments. It helps.
“And as far as your request for a citation of you being immediately wrong, I’ve pointed this out numerous times already. Including in the post you just responded to. ”
So your proof of my always being immediately wrong is…. you saying you’ve pointed it out.
That’s definitely not circular logic or anything, nope.
“And when you pull crap like “I pretty much covered my butt by giving both possibilities” you just make anything you say meaningless”
No, it means I know multiple routes that a story can go.
“As but one example, I’ve heard even as a layman that a lawyer will address the jury and describe what the facts will show and what conclusion they will be able to arrive at.”
What conclusion they SHOULD arrive at. Or what conclusion they WANT the jury to arrive at. Not what conclusion they WILL arrive at.
Also, I think you watch too much Matlock.
“And yeah, I know I’m opening myself up to an accusation of strawmanning you, ”
Well at least you realize you’re making a strawman argument and as such, your entire argument is disingenuous, since you’re making up an argument FOR me in order to defeat that argument, instead of reading what I actually write. Realizing you have a problem is the first step, O.
“but I’m not the one who claimed “I pretty much covered my butt by giving both possibilities.””
You really still don’t understand what a strawman argument is, do you?
Because my giving multiple ideas of where the story can go is not a strawman argument.
“Citation(s) provided.”
I’ve yet to see any. :) Citing YOURSELF within the same sentence that you’re citing doesn’t count. :)
Oh I see the problem. You didn’t actually READ THE COMIC. (Your emphasis)
Well you did, but you read what you wanted to read rather than what was actually shown to you.
It’s all great and good to imagine deadly threats, and to cite characters claiming that there are or were deadly threats, but when you demonstrate such a colossal failure of reading comprehension as to attempt to cite (just one example as this will be long enough as it is):
[Oberon] “Atomic Bombshell: Not a scratch”
Incorrect. Maxima said it popped her back and hurt […]
Then you lose all credibility.
Here you’re presumably attempting to argue against my “She said ‘ow'” argument that Maxima has never really been threatened by anything in the comic. And to do so, you’re using what? You’re using an example where Maxima said ‘ow.’
Again, for anyone besides you who may be reading this, Maxima wasn’t hurt by Atomic Bombshell, Maxima said ‘ow’ and had some clothing damage. Which is exactly what I said happened. And yet here you are somehow trying to use my example of a situation where Maxima wasn’t hurt as an example of how Maxima has been hurt. Except she wasn’t hurt, no matter how much you want to believe that she was. Did this ‘ow’ slow her down? Nope. Did this ‘ow’ interfere with her ability to act? Nope. Did this ‘ow’ impact her in any other way other than the thought bubbles you’ve cited but which have nothing other than thought to back them up?
In other words, were we shown that Maxima was hurt, or were we just told that something hurt Maxima, while we were shown that Maxima wasn’t actually hurt at all? Hint: We were shown that Maxima wasn’t actually hurt at all.
This is what anyone who actually READ THE COMIC would conclude. Because this is what the comic showed the readers. Not the wishful thinkers, not the readers who prefer to read things that didn’t actually happen into the things that actually happened. But sadly Pander, despite repeatedly claiming to be a lawyer, you don’t seem to have the ability to actually READ THE COMIC without injecting your own fantasies about what happened into what actually happened.
I guess you’re more of a Rudy Giuliani lawyer, or a Sidney Powell lawyer.
It’s sad, because just like I hope and expect a doctor or nurse to not be anti-vaccination because it’s just ridiculous for a trained medical professional to hold an opinion so divergent from the actual reality of how vaccinations work and how incredibly beneficial they have been since their introduction, I also hope and expect a lawyer to have a basic grounding in facts, logic, and reality, despite lawyers like Giuliani, Powell, and you showing us that this isn’t always true.
“Well you did, but you read what you wanted to read rather than what was actually shown to you.”
The idea that you can read the Vehemence arc and not notice that Maxima almost died in the fight against him shows that you either did not actually read the comic, or you’re just making up lies in hopes that other people did not read the comic. Third possibility is you just are being jerky. Since I’ve seen your ‘arguments’ with other people, I’m probably leaning towards the third one, but I wouldnt immediately dismiss that most of your problem is just common ignorance of subject matter.
Mainly because your ‘arguments’ tend to be a comination of ad hominem attacks/insults and arguments not based even remotely on anything that’s ever happened in the comic. Could be a troll thing also but I’m generally trying to discern the reason FOR the trolling instead of just calling you a troll and being done with it, since you’ve been doing this for a long time.
“You’re using an example where Maxima said ‘ow.’”
No, I’m using an example where Maxima literally says, in the same panel as ‘ow,’ ‘that really hurt’ and ‘that popped my back’ and ‘better not give her the satisfaction of letting her know.’
You are not a particularly intelligent person.
“were we shown that Maxima was hurt, ”
Maxima literally said it hurt in her internal monologue thought bubble. She just wasnt going to let Atomic Bombshell know that it hurt. ALSO said in her internal monologue thought bubble. Read the comic for a change.
“This is what anyone who actually READ THE COMIC would conclude. ”
Funny thing about reading. It involves words. Like the words that Maxima said, when she said ‘that actually hurt’ in the thought bubble, and the reason she didn’t let Atomic bombshell know that it hurt. Which she ALSO said in the thought bubble.
Maybe you just look at the pictures instead and not read the comic though?
And your last paragraph just seems to be word diarrhea about anti-vaxxing and Trump stuff because you’re definitely trolling there since I have no idea how anti-vax, Giuliani, Powell or ‘how vaccinations work’ have to do with anything in the comic, anything in this thread, anything in my post, or anything in your post. It’s not even a tangent because tangents at least have some little connecting minutiae to the original topic.
Btw just in case you have not noticed… since almost everything you say is ad hominem attack, I should probably mention this. It’ll probably be a one-time thing since I usually don’t like ad hominems. But given how much you’ve been doing it, using ad hominem attacking as a response to an ad hominem attack seems appropriate here :
I don’t think anyone here actually likes you. Maybe there’s one person – I dunno. There might be another person who posts only as a troll who feels comradery. But for the most part? No one likes you.
I’m sure there are people here who don’t like me either, but there are also people who do like me, or at least like my posts. But… damn…. I don’t think ANYONE likes you. It’s probably because of your attitude and tendency to just insult people, and that you’re just generally mean and unlikeable in your posts, relying mainly on insults and attempts to create flame wars instead of anything constructive. Your posts never seem to add anything to the conversation. It stands out mainly because most people here – even the people who disagree frequently or argue in a less polite way – are occasionally or even usually civil. But you are almost never civil. It’s sort of sad.
I’m occasionally surprised that I agree with Oberon on something. Does that count?
It’s really when he’s arguing with you that he’s at his worst. I feel like there are plenty of times when he’s said reasonable, intelligent things, though the presentation does tend towards the angry and combative.
“I’m occasionally surprised that I agree with Oberon on something.”
Nah, I’ve occasionally. VERY VERY occasionally, agreed to him on something on the rare instance where he’s not being an ass. He’s usually a jerk though. It’s not usually with me though. He’s been like this with multiple other people, including Guesticules. I’m just the latest person to be in his crosshairs.
Fortunately I don’t care.
You, on the other hand, we disagree a lot but you’re at least civil and don’t resort to insults. So it’s usually more productive to argue with you. I get more out of it intellectually.
“Does that count?”
Nah, it really doesn’t count. To use a saying that Oberon ATTEMPTED to use in another thread and thoroughly butchered, ‘Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.’ It doesn’t make him likeable though, and it doesn’t make it obvious that he actively hates other people here and is looking for a fight, instead of for an reasoned back-and-forth argument.
“I feel like there are plenty of times when he’s said reasonable, intelligent things,”
I definitely wouldn’t describe it as ‘plenty.’ With Oberon, when he gets something right and does NOT get all insulting, it stands out because of how rare it happens.
More like he occasionally stumbles upon a rational argument, then as soon as someone disputes him, he starts with the insults. He is not a generally likable person, and I’d be surprised if he has any friends in real life if his attitude is anywhere close to how it is on the forum. Fortunately, people do sometimes act a lot different online with the shield of anonymity, which is sort of the point of the internet. I doubt he would say half of what he says if he was standing in front of the other person in real life. I don’t think he would be able to string together a sentence coherently enough without getting enraged.
Like you said, he tends towards being ‘angry and combative.’ That’s not very conducive to being liked. Hopefully in real life, he’s not as misanthropic.
I would actually strongly disagree that Max is the strongest super seen so far. That award has to go to Sydney.
The combination of her powers, and how she uses them, and how her shield gives her *time* to think strategically in combat has helped her defeat enemies that even Max had trouble with. Case in point: The end of the fight with V. Also how the fight with Sciona ended up. Hell, Sydney just punked V quite recently in a complete shut-down when V was nearly as powered up as he was when he was soundly trouncing Max.
The only time Sydney has been definitively beaten was the rematch against Concretia when she actually uses her powers intelligently instead of just being a walking brick. And even then, it was an ambush. Every other time, Sydney has either carried the team to victory, given the lion’s share of assistance to the team’s victory, or has otherwise upstaged literally everyone else in the comic strip.
Max has limitations on her power. They’re substantial, but they do exist, and she’s run into them a couple of times. Part of the problem with Max is that she can’t really ‘cut loose’ without substantial collateral damage. See also ‘World of Cardboard’ speech.
However, the key point I wish to make is that it is rare that her raw power has become a deux ex machina or an ass-pull to solve a problem. Name one solution that was actually *solved* as a direct result of Max applying a ‘bigger hammer’ approach. Go on, I’ll wait.
Power potential is meaningless in the face of limitations on power application. The comparison to Superman is a rather silly one, because of how Superman is written, in my opinion, generally very badly. To make up for his cosmic level power, they felt they had to give him a cosmic level weakness. Hence why Kryptonite exists. Then it got to the point where every threat or challenge involved this mythical substance somehow, and it got boring. Then they came up with the magic weakness as a way to challenge him in some meaningful way. It was a brute-force and ham-handed attempt at best, when it never needed to occur anyway.
Superman, at his best written, is constrained by his own morality. Sure, he *can* solve nearly any problem with excessive force. But he *won’t*. Why? Because that would be the hallmark of a bully, and he doesn’t want to go down that road. Therefore, his potential ability to do so is meaningless, because he *won’t* do that. Self-imposed limitations on what would otherwise be overpowered characters is a great way to create a healthy power dynamic while still reserving that level of power for the Darkseid ‘I need me a bucket of popcorn ready, ’cause dis gun b gud’ moments.
The latter is how Max is written. You don’t need *weaknesses* to balance power, you need *limitations on application* of that force. If Max is unwilling to utilize her full power, then it may as well not exist.
I mean, “rapidly”? It’s kind of been her thing since day… well, not day one. But from her first appearance.
Is no one gonna comment on how easy it apparently it is to manipulate max, and how that can be a really bad thing?
It is a demon, and a succubus, he is probably more using it in a wife meaning(a relationship), then anything we would call real slavery.
But who cares, Max seems to have a hair trigger, and an easy to manipulate one at that.
In her defence, Tom was already literal millimetres away from getting his spine ripped out and stuffed up his butt mere minutes previously when he showed up and made threats (and even technically assault!), and has been insistently proposing treason and sedition to Max for most of the rest of the time since then. This isn’t a sudden snap from best buds to Arglebargle rage, this is more of a switch from “The only reason I haven’t already turned you into a smear on the ground is the paperwork involved” to “okay, paperwork it is”.
Really, this was just the straw that not only broke the camel’s back, but carved it’s way straight through the camel and made a decent sized hole in the ground underneath it.
That needs to be a threat at some point. “I would strongly recommend you keep the pleasure of ending you lower than the inconvenience the related paperwork would cause me.”
“How fortunate it is for you that I dislike the paperwork that ending you would entail”
Rapidly shortened to
“NOT worth the paperwork.”
or
“SOOOO owrth the paperwork.”
You’ve reminded me of an old D&D joke. It went something like this:
What do the players do when Azmodeus appears:
1. Flee
2. Cry
3. Attack in a futile gesture
4. Turn invisible
5. Hide in shadows
6. Offer to become his herald, seeking out other worlds for him to consume in exchange for sparing this one and not incidentally your own life
There were several other potential options, leading to the punchline:
X. Call upon your Lawful Good deity to intervene on your behalf. Given the dire situation, the invocation can
be shortened to “Good God!”
I hope for Dabbler’s sake that it was not mere minutes …
Tom’s assistant said “invasion” , that is a declaration of war per the Rules of Land Warfare. Max literally can execute them and not take prisoners since they don’t have a flag, or identifiable uniform aka SPIES.
BTW this is why we have border patrol and not the US army controlling who comes in; army rules are fatal.
“Tom’s assistant said “invasion””
No, he said ‘Are we still going forward with the impromptu invaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.’ :)
So:
1) It was a question, not a declaration.
2) It wasn’t even a full sentence of the word invasion.
3) Clearly they were not invading at that point, nor were they going to after that point. It was a booty call, apparently.
4) Tom’s assistant has no authority to declare anything anyway. It would be like the Jen Psaki declaring war.
Then he said it’s NOT an invasion, it’s a booty call.
Soooo he (the assistant) specifically said that it was NOT an invasion. :)
Plus most invasions don’t involve powerpoint presentations.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-988-its-like-herding-horny-demons/
(Panels 2 and 4)
“Max literally can execute them”
No she cannot. That would actually be a criminal action. There has been no war declared. Nor any authorized military action. This isnt even self defense, because the only one who did ANYTHING violent was Maxima. Mulitple times now.
“since they don’t have a flag,”
They don’t need a flag.
“or identifiable uniform”
Identifiable uniforms are only required during a war. There is no war.
“aka SPIES.”
The legal definition of a spy is one who goes into a place for the purpose of ascertaining the best way of doing an injury there. They came with a powerpoint presentation. They pretty clearly announced their intentions. They are not spies. Maxima murdering Thothogoth summarily would arguably be a court-martiallable offense since she has no authorization to use lethal force, was not in danger, and none of her people were in danger even.
It’s entirely possible that none of the human rules of engagement apply to Tom because the law may just view the utterly lethal repulsion of a demonic invasion “necessary extermination of an invasive species.”
And I’d agree with you on that except that, in the Grrlpower universe, one of the first things they would have done in government upon the PUBLIC realization of alien life, was to create laws, or at the very least, temporary executive orders in lieu of laws, about how to react regarding extraterrestrial actions.
And with the US in particular, we DO have treaties which involve this with the Council, in the Grrlpower universe, so there would be at least SOME human rules of engagement unless the US government was even more incompetent than I normally consider governments to be. And for something which US government is actually constitutionally necessary (providing for the common defense).
Dude, we don’t even have adequate laws about the internet yet, and that was made by humans, fifty years ago. We don’t have them because the people in charge of making the laws a) don’t understand what kind of laws they need and b) are too busy making bank from people who make even more money because the laws don’t exist.
You’re telling me Deus is the only person in the world interested in keeping rules about aliens deliberately vague?
“Dude, we don’t even have adequate laws about the internet yet, and that was made by humans, fifty years ago.”
In my opinion, that’s because making laws for the internet is a lot more nuanced than something like ‘providing for the common defense.’ The former has a lot of different tiny elements to it, many of which can conflict with one another. The latter is already pretty much spelled out in the Constitution and would just need to be expanded to include extraterrestrial civilizations.
Plus remember, in the Grrlpower universe the government already has a rather LONG standing relationship with the Council, which includes extraterrestrials. For about 200 years apparently, at least in the Council’s current incarnation.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-460-super-misdirection/
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-444-reuleaux-earballs/
But I do agree that government tends to be pretty slow on most stuff.
“You’re telling me Deus is the only person in the world interested in keeping rules about aliens deliberately vague?”
On the contrary, Deus is interested in MAKING the rules about aliens. And I for one welcome it. It would bring a new era of prosperity and advancement for all mankind with him as a guiding presence for all people to reach their true potentials, if they so wish to. Because with Deus, freedom and opportunities are important.
Do not sully Deus’s name with a comparison to the common, mostly inept, often corrupt rabble in most government, who only look to their own greedy needs, when there’s Deus, who puts his people’s needs first and foremost, in order to inspire the loyalty which he most richly deserves.
All praise Deus, amen.
Sorry, where was I again?
It is additionally noted that aliens literally toured through the last arc and the only rando-crazies to show up and attack *anything* were directly fought by ARC.
Barring the guy who ate one and induces vomiting via beauty.
Given the heroes were on site for the majority of these encounters and it started as a peaceful engagement, we appear to be going with a “if it can talk back, it’s human enough” ruleset. Tom here showed up in a giant hell portal and attempted to induce heroes to his side via bribery and browbeating, putting him comfortably in the “you’re about to be the guy in a wife beater on Cops” territory.
As illustrated by being spiked into the ground and the current faceplate crusher.
“Tom here showed up in a giant hell portal and attempted to induce heroes to his side via bribery”
I don’t think there was any bribery involved.
“and browbeating,”
There wasn’t much browbeating either, if any. There was just a ‘Look I wanna talk to my lady, buzz off if you know what’s good for ya’ sort of thing said to Maxima who had gotten in the way. Which was followed by being laid out flat on his back. After which he was actually rather sociable and did not make any threats, then he got laid 5 times, then again no threats.
“putting him comfortably in the “you’re about to be the guy in a wife beater on Cops” territory.”
Pretty sure cops are not supposed to crush people’s faces if they hear a single word that they don’t like… directed at someone else. :)
They might not be supposed to, but history shows that it takes less than that for them to kill you.
The bodyslam was a somewhat reasonable reaktion to the provoking poke. Tom did his best to mend things. Sure it would be easier of he wasn’t a bit of a arrogant asshole but then again he is not the only one in this company.
By the way he never really attacked them even though he had the opportunity to do so. I think it’s fair to assume that he is at least as powerfull as Dabbler so it would be best to not provoke him. Then again Dabbler seem certain that he will behave and she should know him well enough.
“By the way he never really attacked them even though he had the opportunity to do so.”
Correct. He never attacked. The worst he did at all was make a very veiled threat, and only made that threat after being threatened by Maxima in the first place. And he stopped even with the threat after the body slam and sex with Dabbler. Which means there is NO excuse for physical force at that point. Everyone who is trying to say there is is saying that if you EVER say anything aggressive to anyone, even if it’s apologized for afterwards or put in the past, you are ALWAYS going to be subject to physical violence.
It’s sort of psychotic a mentality to have.
Person 1: “Hey, you wanna fight or something, jerk?”
Person 2: *punches Person 1*
Person 1: “Ow. Okay sorry about before.”
Person 2: “Okay, well now that you learned your lesson about poking people, it’s all good”
*lots of calm casual talking*
Person 1 to Person 3: “Hey jerk wassup with you?”
Person 3 doesnt seem to mind and seems cool with it. Possibly some backstory behind the word ‘jerk’ with the two of them.
Person 2: *grabs Person 1*
Person 3: “Hey it’s okay! Between the two of us, I’m ‘Jerk'”
Person 2: *beats Person 1 in the face repeatedly*
Person 3: “HEY STOP! STOP!”
Notice that in this scenario, Person 1 is a bit of a creep in the first place. But after the initial violence, Person 1 was no longer doing anything worthy of being physically harmed. At that point, Person 2 is the psycho, not Person 1.
Telling people they would be better off under his administration is not actionable in any way. There’s nothing illegal or immoral about it, since he was not attempting to bribe her… he was attempting to sway her to an understanding of how great it would be if the entire world voted itself under his leadership.
Talking about invading – to the degree that it happened – puts him clearly as a foreign leader, so further violence would be a diplomatic incident caused by loose cannon Max.
“Talking about invading – to the degree that it happened – puts him clearly as a foreign leader, so further violence would be a diplomatic incident caused by loose cannon Max.”
How do you figure? Honestly, foreign leader is the LEAST likely option that I can think of — Presidents and Prime Ministers and etc rarely lead from the literal front of their armies. Far more likely he’s a general (at best) or the equivalent of a crime boss.
Presidents and Prime Ministers not leading from the front is a fairly recent Earth thing, mostly due to, if the leader dies, the country is left in turmoil
Deus is only interested in Deus, I absolutely refuse to believe his “I’m really only in it to make people’s lives better because the government is awful” line.
The only thing we can count on Lex Luthor to to do is watch out for the interests of Lex Luthor, even if he wraps it in pretty words and promises of elevating humanity. Deus “I assure you my sweat shops are air conditioned” is just as reliable.
“Deus is only interested in Deus, I absolutely refuse to believe his “I’m really only in it to make people’s lives better because the government is awful” line.”
It’s okay. Even Jesus, Gandhi, the Buddha, and Moses all had their detractors who did not believe in their beneficence.
“The only thing we can count on Lex Luthor to to do is watch out for the interests of Lex Luthor”
Oh I see the problem. You think Deus is Lex Luthor. He is not. Allow me to explain.
1) Lex Luthor is bald. Deus has a manly, gorgeous hair.
2) Lex Luthor is jealous of Superman’s power. Deus loves Maxima.
3) Lex Luthor is bad and sacrifices innocents to further his own greedy needs. Deus is the paragon of humanity and the hope for a better tomorrow, protects innocents and only stops evil brutal dictators after giving them a chance to redeem themselves and then only stops them in self-defense, all praise Deus amen.
“Deus “I assure you my sweat shops are air conditioned” is just as reliable.”
That little girl who made him the ashtray is sure happy that she now has a future instead of an early grave or enslavement into being a child soldier ahead of her.
Abso-flaking-lutely! Someone isn’t blinded by the polished teeth hiding the lies and untruths
Warder will eventually see the light, as will you. You may not believe in Deus’s benevolence, my child, but he believes in you.
We do have laws for the internet… laws which you think are inadequate.
Congratulations. We also have laws for everything else that many people think are inadequate.
That’s because it’s a democracy.
Your argument does not hold water.
Further, an agreement with the Council exists.
It’s probably part of an EO, which has the force of law unless challenged. Alternately, it could be coequal to a treaty, which is coequal to our constitution.
We haven’t heard what US law has done yet to include nonhumans *including metas* under the rubric of law. A thinking statue is subject to which laws regarding theft, property destruction and so on? What if the property is the statue itself? Is a hyperevolved dog subject to leash laws, and if two of them go on a date, which one holds the leash?
We have the Shadow Council or whatever they were called I am too sleepy to look it up. There are rules of engagement for Archon to deal with demons.
You are awfully sure about the legal authority that Dexon has. You seem to be assuming he is actually just a civilian secretary and not just the person immediately below tom in hierarchy.
In any case, Tom introduced himself as a general, he called himself “world taker”, he repeatedly said that he is there to conquer the earth, when question on how his version is not “invasion and subjugation” he replied that he sets up a pupper government as an intermediary. Then Dexon confirmed that it was an actual threat of invasion, with the armies being marshalled immediately. The assistant even called it an invasion twice, both the cut off one and full one.
Just Tom entering through the portal might be taken as a declaration of war, as moving that much military power that is literally screaming out “my armies are poised to grant humanity a clean break… my grace alone will determine whether or not you live to see it”.
“You are awfully sure about the legal authority that Dexon has. You seem to be assuming he is actually just a civilian secretary and not just the person immediately below tom in hierarchy.”
Because I don’t make assumptions that people have authority on their own until it’s actually stated. Currently, all we’ve seen is he is Tom’s assistant. Which means he’s not in charge and does not have the legal authority to order anything on his own, without Tom’s say so, or that of Tom’s boss (since Tom is only second in command).
“In any case, Tom introduced himself as a general,”
He did not. He introduced him as Dominus Secunde. And the first person to make any actual threat was Maxima, not Tom. :)
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-984-dont-tug-on-etc-etc/
“he called himself “world taker”,”
Because he has taken worlds before. Worlds that are not Earth.
“he repeatedly said that he is there to conquer the earth,”
He did not say he was there to conquer Earth, and definitely did not say it ‘repeatedly.’ You’re making up headcanon that doesnt exist right now. He said, specifically, that his armies are poised to grant humanity a clean break from their squabbling and corrupt institutions. After Maxima spoke to him with a threatening tone.
“when question on how his version is not “invasion and subjugation” he replied that he sets up a pupper government as an intermediary.”
No, he said it was NOT subjugation – he was offering tabula rasa – a clean slate – with the Xevoarchy, since he apparently has pull with the Xevoarchy and Earth is currently in the Xevoarchy’s crosshairs.. When she asked how it isnt invasion and subjugation, he said ‘we prefer to work alongside a collective of concerned stakeholders – ie, Earth’s leaders, like in the U.N. or NATO And if only Maxima would watch the slideshow instead of jumping to conclusions, she would understand that.
“The assistant even called it an invasion twice, both the cut off one and full one.”
He did not call it an invasion. He asked if they WERE invading, as a QUESTION, and was told no. By Tom. Because ‘a lot has happened since he came through the portal.’
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-988-its-like-herding-horny-demons/
“Just Tom entering through the portal might be taken as a declaration of war,”
It was not a declaration of war. He was there to see Xuriel (Dabbler) since they had business. It’s literally the first thing he said after coming through the portal. You’re using headcanon again to say it was a declaration of war.
Also, Dexon seemed to think that Earth had a way to make a ‘decision’ about it. Normally, invasions don’t involve the invaded decided whether or not to be invaded via transcendent slideshows.
““my armies are poised to grant humanity a clean break… my grace alone will determine whether or not you live to see it”.”
1) Immediately after Maxima had also threatened him as well
2) After she bodyslammed him, he stopped making any threats. And in fact told his assistant that they were NOT invading. Therefore, there was no longer any reason for Maxima to be physically violent. Especially not over a non-invasion word to someone ELSE.
Tom himself threatened to bring his army to take over the world.
In the face of that, Max has been more than lenient in demonstrating to him why that won’t be happening. And that if he pushes the issue he’ll go from “bruised pride” to “bruised everything”.
“Tom himself threatened to bring his army to take over the world.”
He did not. He said his armies were poised to do that if Maxima tried anything. Peace through strength. Because Maxima was acting belligerent from the get-go.
“In the face of that, Max has been more than lenient in demonstrating to him why that won’t be happening”
And after that one bodyslam, Max has been anything BUT lenient, even though Tom has not been aggressive at all.
“And that if he pushes the issue he’ll go from “bruised pride” to “bruised everything”.”
He wasn’t pushing any issue. She got violent because he called Dabbler slave, which she admits she IS, and doesnt seem to MIND it. Maxima is being a violent nutcase right now, who is putting the Earth at risk of being plunged into an intergalactic war because she can’t keep her temper in check, much like a child rather than a Lt. Colonel. And even if she can’t be hurt, most people on Earth are not her.
Do you think that if there was a peace talk between President Biden and President Xi Jinping of China, that the correct course of action during talks is to have one of Biden’s soldiers hit him in the face repeatedly with a rifle butt if he calls Hunter a coked-up sub-par artist? Or do you think that would lead to a nuclear war? :)
>He said his armies were poised to do that if Maxima tried anything.
You are mistaken.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-984-dont-tug-on-etc-etc/
“My grace alone will decide whether or not you live to see the much needed order I *will* bring.”
He directly threatened the US military and heavily implied he would kill her whenever he so wished during the course of said invasion.
For being a giant monster that rips through a portal and does that with no provocation, he’s lucky all that happened to him was getting knocked on his ass and then getting laid.
>Maxima is being a violent nutcase right now, who is putting the Earth at risk of being plunged into an intergalactic war
She already told him to moderate his tone and leave. Calling her teammate a slave is decidedly not either of those things.
“You are mistaken.”
I am not. You’re sort of ignoring the order of things that happened. You’re also connecting the ‘slave’ part with the initial backtalk warning or Tom to Maxima’s warning in the beginning, and ignoring that there was a lengthy period in between of all hostilities having stopped, at which point ALL threats had stopped from Tom.
“He directly threatened the US military and heavily implied he would kill her whenever he so wished during the course of said invasion.”
It was an empty statement, basically puffery, followed up by a poke. Which was immediately countered with a bodyslam, after which he was quite civil the entire time. You might notice that I don’t vigorously condemn Maxima’s body slamming Tom. I condemn her skull crushing as unwarranted and no longer being a defensive measure. The skull crushing is utterly unwarranted for a word. And it’s telling that each time, it’s always that Maxima responds to words with violence. It makes her look unhinged.
“For being a giant monster that rips through a portal and does that with no provocation, he’s lucky all that happened to him was getting knocked on his ass and then getting laid.”
I notice that with the aliens that landed in Times Square, Maxima was doing a distinct lack of body slamming. They were also treated with a lot more courtesy, and as a result, were courteous in return.
Except for the aliens who were secretly bounty hunters. They were distinctly not courteous. One of those Bounty Hunters, however, has been partaking in the activities that were happening before Tom showed up.
“She already told him to moderate his tone and leave. Calling her teammate a slave is decidedly not either of those things.”
You’re conflating two separate incidents, separated by the bodyslam, after which Tom DID, in fact, moderate his tone. And calling Dabbler a slave was still a moderation of his tone, since she IS his slave apparently, plus she seems fine with that. It does not warrant skull crushing and, like I said, it makes her out to be a violent nutcase, who is putting the Earth at risk of being plunged into an intergalactic war.
That’s the exact opposite of her main purpose – to protect the status quo and keep the Earth safe from atypical threats. She’s right now doing something which in the long run make the Earth MORE at risk of atypical threats.
Comparison time again. If someone from Mexico breaks through a barrier to get into the US and then says something mean to one of the border agents, after a period of behaving, does it warrant gruesome injury and/or death by the border agents, or would you think the border agents were out of line? I think you’re conflating two separate incidents into one.
>You’re sort of ignoring the order of things that happened.
No, I’m not. There is no “but I won’t if you don’t interfere” clause. Max askes him to either leave or moderate himself and he just reveals that he’s going to invade.
That is a threat, no two ways about it.
>It was an empty statement
Oh my god, you can’t be serious. Max can’t read minds, so there’s no way she would know that.
She obviously took the threat seriously and reacted with relative leniency compared to what he said he wanted to do.
>I notice that with the aliens that landed in Times Square, Maxima was doing a distinct lack of body slamming.
They didn’t threaten to take over the federal government or imply they would kill her.
>And it’s telling that each time, it’s always that Maxima responds to words with violence.
What do you mean, “each time”? Max has never actually struck anyone, save Tom here, over just words as far as I remember. Not V, not Sciona, and not Deus.
>And calling Dabbler a slave was still a moderation of his tone, since she IS his slave apparently
And Max is just now learning that. I’m sure Tom will be left unhanded, if sore, by the next page.
“No, I’m not. There is no “but I won’t if you don’t interfere” clause. Max askes him to either leave or moderate himself and he just reveals that he’s going to invade.”
Yes you are. You’re ignoring what Tom said first – that he had dealings with Xuriel. That was the point of his coming to Earth. He’s been looking for her for a while. Then Maxima made a veiled threat to him. So he made a veiled threat back at her. Then he made the very ill-advised motion of poking her, and was bodyslammed for his action.
“That is a threat, no two ways about it.”
She bodyslammed him for poking her. Not for anything he said there.
And now that he’s NOT making any offensive touching, she’s now attacking him for non-threatening words instead. She’s acting in a rather psychotically angry manner because of a WORD. And not in keeping with an officer of her rank.
“Oh my god, you can’t be serious. Max can’t read minds, so there’s no way she would know that.”
And yet after she flipped him, she did not do anything else. Clearly she didnt take the threat seriously. She took the poke as an insult, and responded to the poke with violence in order to make him not want to do anything like that again.
“She obviously took the threat seriously”
No, she took being poked seriously. It was the equivalent of a guy saying ‘what are you gonna do about it.’ And the other person not doing anything. Then the guy pokes the first person in the chest, and THAT’S when that guy gets knocked out.
“They didn’t threaten to take over the federal government or imply they would kill her.”
1) Neither did Tom
2) And how would Maxima know what the aliens in Times Square were planning on doing? Clearly she didnt know that there were some on board who were going to try to kidnap her, for example.
“What do you mean, “each time”? Max has never actually struck anyone, save Tom here, over just words as far as I remember. Not V, not Sciona, and not Deus.”
Well there was her grabbing Dabbler becaus she didnt like being told that she ‘wasn’t the biggest in the room anymore.’ But fair enough point. I should restate what I said.
Max frequently responds to anything with disproportional levels of violence.
Dabbler in the ballroom.
Sciona when she was chasing her and decided to do something that resulted in destroying a bridge.
Apparently whatever gave her the title ‘Destroyer of Mosques’
Her actions during the press after-meeting (admittedly, she did that ONLY once she realized Sydney’s shield can handle it easily)
My point is, Maxima lectured Sydney that she should reprogram her reaction to surprise, to go for her shield instead of lashing out. Maxima should take her own advice and reprogram her reaction to mere rudeness.
“And Max is just now learning that. I’m sure Tom will be left unhanded, if sore, by the next page.”
I want to think you mean she’ll let go of him, but it’s equally probable (based on what I’ve seen of Maxima’s temper and penchant for disproportional violence) that you’re saying she’ll rip off his hand. :D
>Then Maxima made a veiled threat to him. So he made a veiled threat back at her.
No, Max told him to be more polite, explain himself, and/or leave. She even just said she’ll *ask* him to leave as well, with no language suggesting force.
Tom then threatens to take over the planet and kill her.
One is a polite request and the other is a threat that pretty much demanded a response.
>She bodyslammed him for poking her.
It could have been both. You don’t know. :)
>And yet after she flipped him, she did not do anything else. Clearly she didnt take the threat seriously.
So now even you admit she was being lenient with him. She didn’t follow up because he was clearly incapacitated and she wanted to give him another chance before restoring to seriously hurting an alien.
> Neither did Tom
He literally did. Those were his exact words. You just don’t want to admit it.
>And how would Maxima know what the aliens in Times Square were planning on doing?
Max does not punish thought crimes, so without proof, she has no motivation to apprehend anyone for something they might theoretically do.
>Max frequently responds to anything with disproportional levels of violence.
Dabbler groped her. So whether or not that’s punch-worthy is up to personal opinion.
And Sciona was a terrorist using magical WMDs. Max was justified in trying to blow her out of the sky and to give chase, especially with a team ready to come in and support the bridge.
>Her actions during the press after-meeting (admittedly, she did that ONLY once she realized Sydney’s shield can handle it easily)
Max has only ever hit Syndey’s shield when told to. And only ever after testing its limits.
“No, Max told him to be more polite, explain himself, and/or leave. She even just said she’ll *ask* him to leave as well, with no language suggesting force.”
Actually her tone and body language suggested she would FORCE him back through the portal. If was puffery, which she was ready to follow through on.
“Tom then threatens to take over the planet and kill her.”
Actually there was no threat made. He said his armies could take over, and he they did, it would be up to him if she lived or not. It was puffery.
“It could have been both. You don’t know. :)”
I’m seeing it a the poke being the reason because of the onomatopoeia that DaveB put on comic #984 of ‘Ill-advised poke.’
But sure, i’ll give you that it could be both as a possibility. Because my main problem with Maxima’s action has been the skull crushing, not the body slam. The body slam critique is to just show that the only violent actions have been by Maxima.
AFTER the body slam, Tom’s been not only not violent, whch he was already being BEFORE the body slam, but ALSO civil and not making anything that could remotely be seen as a threat. In fact, he outright said things which were a reversal of anything that could have previously been seen as a threat.
“So now even you admit she was being lenient with him.”
Eh, NOT following through with killing him is not what I’d consider lenient. It’s what I’d consider ‘not trying to start an interstellar war.’ Which Maxima is now throwing away because SHE DID NOT LIKE A WORD THAT WAS SAID.
“She didn’t follow up because he was clearly incapacitated and she wanted to give him another chance before restoring to seriously hurting an alien”
And he took that chance, and stopped making threats, and was able to ‘have his dealings’ with Xuriel that he wanted in the first place. Five times, in fact.
“He literally did. Those were his exact words. You just don’t want to admit it.”
Nah, it was pure puffery.
“Max does not punish thought crimes, so without proof,”
And yet she’s crushing his skull over him calling Dabbler ‘slave.’ Which apparently is ACCURATE and Dabbler is okay with the name being given to her. Meanwhile, her own subordinate, Sydney, was hurting poor Tom’s feelings by saying his head looked like a thumb, body shaming him, then saying his name is like calling someone a baby eater, under the initial guise of wanting to ask pertinent questions instead. Poor Tom. Poor BULLIED Tom.
“Dabbler groped her. So whether or not that’s punch-worthy is up to personal opinion.”
Dabbler groped Maxima in response to getting grabbed by the back of the neck and having her head shoved towards Sydney, while being yelled at angrily by Maxima.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-101-what-else-would-you-do-with-two-invisible-arms/
(Panels 5 and 6)
And the reason Maxima STARTED laying hands on Dabbler in a violent manner was because Dabbler just said that Maxima was no longer the ‘biggest girl in the room’ Boob-size-wise.
“And Sciona was a terrorist using magical WMDs”
Not at the point when Maxima was chasing her she wasn’t using any magic WMDs. The entire time, Sciona was actually trying to get back home. Maxima’s actions of ‘blast her’ directly caused a bridge to get destroyed and almost killed innocent civilians. THEN she blamed it on Sciona, who did not do anythng aggressive at that point in time to civilians OR Maxima.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-615-whoops/
Maxima fired at Sciona, while her back was turned on her, and Sciona only barely was able to get her wings up in time to prevent being killed. Maxima shouldnt be using such powerful ordinance (her plasma blasts) when in close proximity to civilians.
The pink-haired reporter during the press conference specifically worried about that and voiced that EXACT concern. And Maxims recklessly dismisses those concerns. I”m thinking that fluffy kittens may need therapy after the ordeal they went through because of Maxima’s recklessness.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-177-one-step-forward-two-steps-back/
(Panel 3 and 4)
” Max was justified in trying to blow her out of the sky and to give chase, especially with a team ready to come in and support the bridge.”
She was NOT justified, just like a police officer is not justified to pull out his gun and start firing wildly at a fleeing mugger, running AWAY from him or her, who just stole a wallet when people are nearby.
“Max has only ever hit Syndey’s shield when told to. And only ever after testing its limits.”
I wasn’t talking about hitting Sydney’s shield. Although as far as PUNCHING the shield went, Sydney did not seem to expect Maxima to do that, and Maxima was getting very angry that she COULDNT punch through it or even tax it, to the point where her punches on the shield were being heard throughout the building.
Maxima. Doesn’t. Control. Her. Temper. Well.
And if frequently causes problems where if she just acted more responsibly, it wouldn’t. She literally acts in ways that she told Sydney not to act, in a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ mindset.
Lots of collateral damage in civilian areas.
Restaurant fight.
Bridge chase.
Mosque (possibly)
Whoever owns this building that Maxima used as a pinata – https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-717-the-long-foot-of-the-law/
“No, Max told him to be more polite, explain himself, and/or leave. She even just said she’ll *ask* him to leave as well, with no language suggesting force.”
Actually her tone and body language suggested she would FORCE him back through the portal. If was puffery, which she was ready to follow through on.
“Tom then threatens to take over the planet and kill her.”
Actually there was no threat made. He said his armies could take over, and he they did, it would be up to him if she lived or not. It was puffery.
“It could have been both. You don’t know. :)”
I’m seeing it a the poke being the reason because of the onomatopoeia that DaveB put on comic #984 of ‘Ill-advised poke.’
But sure, i’ll give you that it could be both as a possibility. Because my main problem with Maxima’s action has been the skull crushing, not the body slam. The body slam critique is to just show that the only violent actions have been by Maxima.
AFTER the body slam, Tom’s been not only not violent, whch he was already being BEFORE the body slam, but ALSO civil and not making anything that could remotely be seen as a threat. In fact, he outright said things which were a reversal of anything that could have previously been seen as a threat.
“So now even you admit she was being lenient with him.”
Eh, NOT following through with killing him is not what I’d consider lenient. It’s what I’d consider ‘not trying to start an interstellar war.’ Which Maxima is now throwing away because SHE DID NOT LIKE A WORD THAT WAS SAID.
“She didn’t follow up because he was clearly incapacitated and she wanted to give him another chance before restoring to seriously hurting an alien”
And he took that chance, and stopped making threats, and was able to ‘have his dealings’ with Xuriel that he wanted in the first place. Five times, in fact.
“He literally did. Those were his exact words. You just don’t want to admit it.”
Nah, it was pure puffery.
“Max does not punish thought crimes, so without proof,”
And yet she’s crushing his skull over him calling Dabbler ‘slave.’ Which apparently is ACCURATE and Dabbler is okay with the name being given to her. Meanwhile, her own subordinate, Sydney, was hurting poor Tom’s feelings by saying his head looked like a thumb, body shaming him, then saying his name is like calling someone a baby eater, under the initial guise of wanting to ask pertinent questions instead. Poor Tom. Poor BULLIED Tom.
“Dabbler groped her. So whether or not that’s punch-worthy is up to personal opinion.”
Dabbler groped Maxima in response to getting grabbed by the back of the neck and having her head shoved towards Sydney, while being yelled at angrily by Maxima.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-101-what-else-would-you-do-with-two-invisible-arms/
(Panels 5 and 6)
And the reason Maxima STARTED laying hands on Dabbler in a violent manner was because Dabbler just said that Maxima was no longer the ‘biggest girl in the room’ Boob-size-wise.
“And Sciona was a terrorist using magical WMDs”
Not at the point when Maxima was chasing her she wasn’t using any magic WMDs. The entire time, Sciona was actually trying to get back home. Maxima’s actions of ‘blast her’ directly caused a bridge to get destroyed and almost killed innocent civilians. THEN she blamed it on Sciona, who did not do anythng aggressive at that point in time to civilians OR Maxima.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-615-whoops/
Maxima fired at Sciona, while her back was turned on her, and Sciona only barely was able to get her wings up in time to prevent being killed. Maxima shouldnt be using such powerful ordinance (her plasma blasts) when in close proximity to civilians.
The pink-haired reporter during the press conference specifically worried about that and voiced that EXACT concern. And Maxims recklessly dismisses those concerns. I”m thinking that fluffy kittens may need therapy after the ordeal they went through because of Maxima’s recklessness.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-177-one-step-forward-two-steps-back/
(Panel 3 and 4)
” Max was justified in trying to blow her out of the sky and to give chase, especially with a team ready to come in and support the bridge.”
She was NOT justified, just like a police officer is not justified to pull out his gun and start firing wildly at a fleeing mugger, running AWAY from him or her, who just stole a wallet when people are nearby.
“Max has only ever hit Syndey’s shield when told to. And only ever after testing its limits.”
I wasn’t talking about hitting Sydney’s shield. Although as far as PUNCHING the shield went, Sydney did not seem to expect Maxima to do that, and Maxima was getting very angry that she COULDNT punch through it or even tax it, to the point where her punches on the shield were being heard throughout the building.
Maxima. Doesn’t. Control. Her. Temper. Well.
And if frequently causes problems where if she just acted more responsibly, it wouldn’t. She literally acts in ways that she told Sydney not to act, in a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ mindset.
Lots of collateral damage in civilian areas.
Restaurant fight.
Bridge chase.
Mosque (possibly)
Whoever owns this building that Maxima used as a pinata on comic #717 (I think if I post the link I’ll get moderated for having more than 3 links).
>Actually her tone and body language suggested she would FORCE him back through the portal.
We’re arguing threats, not tone here. She was authoritative and straightforward while Tom just went immediately for threatening both her nation and her life.
>Actually there was no threat made. He said his armies could take over
He literally says he “will” bring order to her world and decide whether or not she lives. He uses that word specifically, as I quoted before.
>The body slam critique is to just show that the only violent actions have been by Maxima.
Threatening to kill someone in cold blood is usually seen as violent where I’m from, don’t know about you.
>Eh, NOT following through with killing him is not what I’d consider lenient.
You cited her not following up on her attack as a sign of her “not being serious”. Which implies a serious response to his threat would be to kill him.
>Nah, it was pure puffery.
You’re actually in denial. You can’t and don’t know that.
>Poor Tom. Poor BULLIED Tom.
Hey, maybe other characters wouldn’t be shitting on him so much if he didn’t come in acting like a presumptuous jackass.
>Dabbler groped Maxima in response to getting grabbed by the back of the neck and having her head shoved towards Sydney, while being yelled at angrily by Maxima.
Even assuming that’s where her hand was, that is not equivalent to sexual harassment. Not legally or morally for most people.
>Not at the point when Maxima was chasing her she wasn’t using any magic WMDs.
Max had definitive intel Sciona was going to be using them if she managed to escape. And as far as Max saw, Sciona was speeding towards a bridge full of civilians, so she took the shoot.
And considering how she couldn’t have predicted that her shot would bounce *and*she kept the bridge stable enough to ensure her team could come in and save everyone; her actions would be justified in the eyes of the military.
The US military, certainly, has accepted civilian casualties for far lower stakes.
>Although as far as PUNCHING the shield went, Sydney did not seem to expect Maxima to do that
Sydney was egging Max on to hit the shield harder in that scene. She knew exactly what was happening.
“We’re arguing threats, not tone here. She was authoritative and straightforward while Tom just went immediately for threatening both her nation and her life.”
We’re arguing both. Don’t just dismiss half of it.
“He literally says he “will” bring order to her world and decide whether or not she lives. He uses that word specifically, as I quoted before.”
Once again, you’re ignoring the use of the word ‘poised to’ instead of ‘going to.’ :) Plus, like I’ve said multiple times now and you and others arguing like you NEVER RESPOND TO…. any threat of invasion was already COMPLETELY NEUTRALIZED after the body slam, rendering any further violence to be gratuitous, unnecessary, and created a distinct gap between ‘threat’ and ‘violence.’
You keep conflating the body slam and the skull crushing as a single action and purposely ignore anything that happened in between.
“You cited her not following up on her attack as a sign of her “not being serious”. Which implies a serious response to his threat would be to kill him.”
Again, you are ignoring, and keep ignoring it’s two SEPARATE actions by Maxima. The body slam is a distinctly different action than the skull crushing, with a LOT having changed in the interim amount of time.
“You’re actually in denial. You can’t and don’t know that.”
I honestly am not in denial. The fact that the before was a threat (I’m steelmanning your position) and the after realization was it was actually a powerpoint presentation, shows that his ‘threat’ seems to have been more puffery than danger. Basically saying ‘I have this to back me up in case you get mouthy with me, little missy, big whoop you wanna fight about it? Now sit down and watch this slideshow.’
“Hey, maybe other characters wouldn’t be shitting on him so much if he didn’t come in acting like a presumptuous jackass.”
To be fair, Dabbler did apparently steal from him the last time they met, and apparently he really really missed her. :)
But seriously, yeah, he’s a jackass in his tone. That doesnt merit skull crushing once he’s no longer making anything that can even be CONSIDERED a threat, though. The danger had already passed, and Maxima is resuming violence anyway.
I can give you the bodyslam as being acceptable force, but you seem unwilling to grant that the skull crushing was NOT acceptable force because you keep focusing on the ‘threat’ (or puffery) that was no longer an issue.
“Even assuming that’s where her hand was, that is not equivalent to sexual harassment. Not legally or morally for most people.”
Why do you think a superstrong woman grabbing you by the neck and shoving you forward painfully is NOT as bad as a tush grope done in retaliation? Which did make Maxima let go of Dabbler.
Seriously, you keep seeming to ignore when Maxima STARTS violent acts because of people talking instead of ACTING.
If I call you stupid, and then you punch me as a result of being angry about being called stupid, then I kick you in the cohones…. who do you think started the fight? It would actually be you, because you initiated the first violent act. Because a punch is NOT an an appropriate response to an insult, or being teased. And if there was a threat involved, and then the threat was rescinded, then additional violence is inappropriate as a response to that initial threat.
“Not legally or morally for most people.”
Actually, legally both are offensive touching if done on their own, but the fact that Maxima STARTED the offensive touching there mitigates Dabbler’s offensive touching in response to make her stop doing the first offensive touching.
If you grab me, and I do anything to make you stop grabbing me involving grabbing you back, my grabbing you has a mitigating factor, while yours does not. Hence your offensive touching (battery) has no defense, while my offensive touching (battery) does have a potential defense.
If a guy grabs me in an alley, and my first response it to grab his junk and squeeze really hard to make him let go…. do you think both parties were wrong, only one party was wrong, or one party was more wrong than the other party because one had an excuse for doing it and the other did not?
“Max had definitive intel Sciona was going to be using them if she managed to escape.”
Her intel did not require her to fire plasma blasts, when she could have instead just grabbed her and tackled her into the water. Which she actually wound up doing later in the forest, proving that she did not have to recklessly fire a plasma blast.
“And as far as Max saw, Sciona was speeding towards a bridge full of civilians, so she took the shoot.”
Lets assume that Maxima genuinely did think that, since that’s a legitimate argument to make, despite nothing from Sciona signifying that she was actually planning to do anything like that. Like you’ve said, Maxima is not a mind-reader.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-614-stratotail/
What is not legitimate is Maxima’s reaction to fire a plasma blast instead of use her superior speed to tackle her. She used disproportional force, as she FREQUENTLY does, to try to stop the target. And in this case, it was reckless and almost killed people due entirely to Maxima’s actions.
“And considering how she couldn’t have predicted that her shot would bounce”
Whenever you fire any weapon with innocent civilians nearby, you should ALWAYS consider the danger of ricochet. That’s just common police safety training. When you are firing a PLASMA BLAST that can liquefy tanks, one would think you should be EVEN MORE CAREFUL about civilian safety.
Maxima is reckless when she engages in disproportional response on her own, without orders from a superior officer, and she relies way too much on the idea that she will always be able to fix any problem that she might cause from that recklessness with her powers.
“*and*she kept the bridge stable enough to ensure her team could come in ”
Her patch job gave maybe 30 seconds, and worse, she blamed it on Sciona when it was actually Maxima’s own recklessness which caused the bridge damage.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-616-superhero-triage/
She had no way to know if her team would get there in time, or if people would still die anyway as a result. She definitely was not putting the lives of civilians first there. Heck, Hiro got injured as a result, which shows that she had no way of knowing what would happen. In short, Maxima got lucky that no one died. It doesnt change that she was reckless with her disproportional violence, and if she was a normal cop in RL, and a similar non-superpowered, less extreme example happened, she would be on suspension most likely, pending a hearing. Plus the police department (or in the Grrlpower universe, ARCHON) would be sued for all sorts of damages, both from the city and any civilians that were hurt or in any way harmed physically or emotionally or financially as a result.
“The US military, certainly, has accepted civilian casualties for far lower stakes.”
….. uh… no. Not when it’s on American soil, to American citizens. When it does happen, they usually try to cover it up or shift blame. Also Maxima had no idea what the stakes were in the first place, so it’s sort of difficult to make a comparison regarding stakes.
“Sydney was egging Max on to hit the shield harder in that scene. She knew exactly what was happening.”
Again you seem to ignore what happened BEFORE that, when the punching STARTED.
I present to you Comic #90
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-90-grand-mal-willies/
(last panel)
This comic took place THREE strips before Sydney was egging her on, before Sydney even knew that her shield would be able to handle Maxima’s punches easily.
Last panel.
Maxima: “A forcefield, eh? Why don’t we test it with something that hits harder than that foam?” and she’s cracking her knuckles making a fist.
Sydney’s reaction: Wide-eyed fear
Sydney: “Eep.”
So no, Sydney did NOT know exactly what was going to happen. She did not think it would be safe at all until after Maxima started punching it and Sydney could feel that it was being hit but no difference no matter how hard Maxima hit it.
This is getting stupid. You’ve completely twisted yourself into nots in trying to paint Tom as somehow a victim or without blame in this situation.
>We’re arguing both. Don’t just dismiss half of it.
Well, using a firm tone when telling someone to leave certainly isn’t on the same level as a direct threat.
>Once again, you’re ignoring the use of the word ‘poised to’ instead of ‘going to.’
He said they “will” bring order. Which implies it’s going to happen.
And his assistant reveals they were ready to do just that on his order.
>any threat of invasion was already COMPLETELY NEUTRALIZED
But it’s not exactly all water under the bridge.
>The fact that the before was a threat (I’m steelmanning your position) and the after realization was it was actually a powerpoint presentation
It wasn’t just a presentation. It’s just that his army, and subsequent killing of Max, would include one.
>but you seem unwilling to grant that the skull crushing was NOT acceptable force
Oh, well yeah. Not legally acceptable force.
Don’t know what rules Grrlverse has on what is acceptable against an invading force that gives up.
> Dabbler’s offensive touching in response to make her stop
What makes you think Dabbler did that to make her stop? Dabbler is pretty eager to be grabbed by Max anytime.
>Her intel did not require her to fire plasma blasts
It didn’t, but it was (as far as Max knew) the fastest way to stop Sciona before she reached the bridge.
Max does not have infinite speed. Only after passing the bridge was she close enough to try physically grappling Sciona.
>Whenever you fire any weapon with innocent civilians nearby, you should ALWAYS consider the danger of ricochet.
They weren’t “nearby” they were hundreds of meters away. And the blast was fairly weak considering when it hit the bridge it didn’t obliterate it.
Max angled the shot down so that even if she missed it would only hit the water, was hundreds of meters away from civilians, and toned down the power.
That was possibly the safest shot she’s taken in the whole series.
>She had no way to know if her team would get there in time
Yes, she did. Max knows how fast Sydney is and their team has a teleporter.
>Also Maxima had no idea what the stakes were in the first place, so it’s sort of difficult to make a comparison regarding stakes.
Yes, she does. The council told her how dangerous Sciona and those items were.
>I present to you Comic #90
Wow, you presented Max asking permission before hitting the shield. How… horrible?
And considering how there was no collateral when we cut back to that scene, Max started off fairly weak too.
“You’ve completely twisted yourself into nots in trying to paint Tom as somehow a victim or without blame in this situation.”
Not really, I’m not. I haven’t ever said that Tom has no blame. I’m saying Tom hasnt been violent. I’m saying Maxima has repeatedly responded to words with physical violence, and she’s the only one who has. If you call Mike Tyson a loser, don’t be surprised if he knocks you out. But that still means Mike Tyson was more in the wrong than the person who calls him a loser. Violent action is worse than rude language. They are not equivalent. It’s a massively ‘disproportional response.’
“Well, using a firm tone when telling someone to leave certainly isn’t on the same level as a direct threat.”
Lets steelman what you’re saying, again. Let us assume this is correct. After the bodyslam, there were no threats being uttered, and any potential threats that had been stated pre-bodyslam had been completely neutralized by Tom saying there was NOT going to be an invasion.
So now, try to argue entirely based on the idea that you’d think that physical violence is an acceptable response to rude, non-threatening language said to another person. Even if the word used is accurate.
Seriously, respond to that, instead of continually going back to stuff from pre-body slam. I think the reason that you don’t is you might realize that Maxima is in the wrong at that point.
“He said they “will” bring order. Which implies it’s going to happen.”
Actually it implies a potential future event, not that it is a certainty, since it’s tied to the previous sentence, which used poised, not will.
And again, if I steelman and accept your intepretation of ALL things pre-bodyslam, it doesnt change anything that I’m saying about where Maxima is out of line, post body-slam, which is what’s happening in the above strip. The body slam was a few strips ago.
“Max does not have infinite speed. Only after passing the bridge was she close enough to try physically grappling Sciona.”
She doesn’t need to have infinite speed. She’s fast enough to catch Sciona though, and that was already proven in the very next strip when she does EXACTLY that. If she used that energy for speed instead of a plasma blast, no bridge would be even at risk of being destroyed.
“They weren’t “nearby” they were hundreds of meters away.”
Considering the range of Maxima’s plasma blast, it clearly was nearby enough, and Maxima should, at the very least, understand the range of HER OWN RANGE ATTACKS. If you recall, Maxima threw a tank over a MILE away…. and then shot it with a plasma blast as well…. and it created a firestorm that engulfed the entire area, including around Sydney’s shield where the press was. Over a mile away.
BTW, hundreds of meters away is not very far. If a missile hit hundreds of meters away from you, it would be a very close miss. Even up to 900 meters is only about a half mile. We’ve already seen that the after-effects of Maxima’s blasts go a lot farther than that.
“And the blast was fairly weak considering when it hit the bridge it didn’t obliterate it.”
…. the blast went through the steel frame of the bridge like the bridge was made of soft butter. If that’s weak, then like the pink haired reporter said, she shouldnt be allowed to use ordinance like that near populated areas.
“Yes, she did. Max knows how fast Sydney is and their team has a teleporter.”
Where did you get that she knew how far away they were for her to do the calculations in her head of how quickly they could get there, stop the bridge from collapsing, and save any people who were in danger in time? The point is it was an unnecessary risk that was COMPLETELY avoidable by just not being stupid and going for the most violent attack she could think of as the first attack.
Heck, she has a gun also, why not use that. Much less chance of a ricochet that will destroy a nearby bridge since a gun’s range if not nearly as far as her plasma blast, and a ricochet would be not nearly as powerful the kinetic force, but the bullet itself would still be able to stop Sciona (although it could also be deflected as well, hence why tackling would be the best option). It hurt Brut later on, who is likely harder to injure than a pre-blood potion Sciona.
“Wow, you presented Max asking permission before hitting the shield. How… horrible?”
Oh for crying out loud, I’m showing that, at that point in time, Sydney and Maxima each had no idea how incredibly effective the shield would be against Maxima’s punches, based on Sydney’s INITIAL reaction of ‘eep’ and wide eyes of being afraid.
“And considering how there was no collateral when we cut back to that scene,”
Because the general ordered her to stop before the shock waves of the punches ‘ruptured everyone’s eardrums and destroyed the room. That doesnt mean her punches were weak. It means when Maxima starts getting angry (like she was with not being able to even tax Sydney’s shield until ordered to stop), she is not exactly paying attention to how much damage she can cause around her.
“Max started off fairly weak too.”
And ended with punches powerful enough to be heard throughout the building, or at least as far as a few floors away where Mathias, Anvil, Harem and Heatwave were.
>Let us assume this is correct. After the bodyslam, there were no threats being uttered
Then that’s agreed.
>Actually it implies a potential future event, not that it is a certainty, since it’s tied to the previous sentence, which used poised, not will.
Poised just means they’re ready to attack. And he never gave a stipulation for what, only to say that they will bring order in the next second.
And his assistant revealed that he was planning to do exactly that.
>She’s fast enough to catch Sciona though,
Not until they had already passed the bridge. We have been shown or told nothing to indicate she was holding back for some reason.
>Considering the range of Maxima’s plasma blast, it clearly was nearby enough
That’s an unreasonable restriction then. No ranged power, or even a mundane gun, could be used in a city then because there’s a non 0% chance of it bouncing and killing someone far away.
>…. the blast went through the steel frame of the bridge like the bridge was made of soft butter.
Not really? It doesn’t slag the concrete or anything, just knocks off the cables on a support pillar.
>Where did you get that she knew how far away they were for her to do the calculations in her head of how quickly they could get there
Max knows how fast she is and how fast Sydney is, also teleportation. 30 seconds is plenty of time.
>Heck, she has a gun also, why not use that. Much less chance of a ricochet that will destroy a nearby bridge since a gun’s range
1) A gun is way too weak to do anything.
2) How is a bullet less likely to ricochet than an energy blast?
>Because the general ordered her to stop before the shock waves of the punches ‘ruptured everyone’s eardrums and destroyed the room.
This obviously means they started off much weaker than that. Max’s punches weren’t even in line with Sydney’s body besides. Even if the shield broke, Sydney would be unharmed.
“Poised just means they’re ready to attack. And he never gave a stipulation for what, only to say that they will bring order in the next second.”
Correct. Poised means ready to attack. It does not mean a certainty, like ‘will’ can mean. And from the context of that strip, it seems like the stipulation was ‘pay me due respect and stay out of my way while I have dealings with Xuriel, or else.’ Maxima then showed that the ‘or else’ would not work well for him with a bodyslam after he poked her, because he was on HER home turf, and so he needed to give HER respect. But he did wind up having his ‘dealings’ with Xuriel. And like we both agree, after the body slam, his attitude definitely changed and there were no more threats uttered. Which means anything that happens from there would be morally ‘tabula rasa.’
“And his assistant revealed that he was planning to do exactly that.”
Again no, his assistant asked if the invasion was still on. And Tom then quite quickly said no, it was not. At which point the assistant concluded that it had not been an invasion after all that Tom was there to do, but rather a booty call.
“Not until they had already passed the bridge. We have been shown or told nothing to indicate she was holding back for some reason.”
Maxima’s ability to move fast before or after the bridge does not change. She was JUST as potentially fast before the bridge as she was after the bridge.
“Not really? It doesn’t slag the concrete or anything, just knocks off the cables on a support pillar.”
Please look at the actual picture. I’ll provide the link.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-615-whoops/
Look at panels 3 and 4.
In panel 3, her plasma blast goes right through the steel (not concrete, the concrete is used at the base of the tower) of the support tower like it was made of soft butter. Then in panel 4, the plasma blast explodes, which not only destroys part of the bridge tower, but also causes the main support cable to have nothing to connect to.
It’s not just ‘knocking off a cable.’ Also, the main support cable on bridges are MASSIVE. On the Brooklyn bridge, the main support cable uses almost 7000 TONS of steel, and even the tables that are attached to the main cable are 16 inches thick EACH, one of which did a whiplash thing and hit Hiro in the face like a whip, which for anyone else would have turned them into a fine red mist.
So yes, Maxima destroyed the bridge itself, not just knocked off a cable.
“That’s an unreasonable restriction then.”
It’s no more unreasonable than American gunships have when firing their ordinance. And Maxima’s plasma blast is more powerful than a gunship’s howitzers.
“No ranged power, or even a mundane gun, could be used in a city then because there’s a non 0% chance of it bouncing and killing someone far away.”
Maxima’s plasma blast is not like a gun, unless you mean like a Howitzer, or the main gun of an AC-130 (those can level an entire city block if it misfires).
“Max knows how fast she is and how fast Sydney is, also teleportation. 30 seconds is plenty of time.”
Maxima, at the time, did NOT know that Sydney could teleport. Also Sydney cannot teleport anyone else, just herself. Sydney would not be capable of saving the bridge on her own, since her lighthook can only hold about 16 tons, and the main cable for the bridge weighs about 7000 tons, so even holding up part of it is likely going to be a lot more than Sydney can handle. You’d need people like Stalwart or Hiro instead, if Maxima is not there.
“A gun is way too weak to do anything.”
It wasn’t too weak to hurt Brut, who has super levels of durability. Maxima’s gun is a lot more powerful than your typical firearm.
“How is a bullet less likely to ricochet than an energy blast?”
1) Lightsabers can deflect laser blasts, but not slugs and bullets.
2) Bullets are smaller than the plasma blast, so harder to deflect.
3) Bullets are less visible than the plasma blast, so harder to know to deflect.
4) Bullets are less loud than the plasma blast when dealing with wind resistance in your ears as well, to less likely for Sciona to know to turn around to deflect it.
5) Bullets ricocheting are less likely to cause massive damage on the scale that the plasma blast ricocheting can cause. Police are supposed to minimize possible collateral damage in their actions.
“This obviously means they started off much weaker than that.”
And they ended up hard enough to be about to rupture eardrums of people a fair distance away and risk destroying the ballroom from just the shockwave of the punches.
“Max’s punches weren’t even in line with Sydney’s body besides.”
If a punch capable of getting through Sydney’s shield did so, and the punches that could not were causing damage from just the shockwave, then a punch even close to Sydney at that level of power would have hurt her a lot, probably ruptured her eardrums as well, and possibly worse. Fortunately, Sydney’s shield was able to easily handle it.
“Even if the shield broke, Sydney would be unharmed.”
1) Maxima (and Sydney for that matter) had no idea if the shield would hold to that extent until Maxima was hitting hard enough that the entire building was hearing the punches and the eardrums of the people in there, save for Sydney safe behind her shield, were hurting.
2) See above. If the shield DID break, the contact front of the shockwave would have hurt Sydney
3) Neither Maxima or Sydney had any idea what physiological effects actually managing to break Sydney’s shield would have on Sydney, since she is in some way tied TO the orbs.
> it seems like the stipulation was ‘pay me due respect and stay out of my way while I have dealings with Xuriel, or else.’
Still a threat then.
> Again no, his assistant asked if the invasion was still on.
Yup, basically confirmation.
Tom changed his mind but that doesn’t change the fact that invasion was his initial plan.
>Maxima’s ability to move fast before or after the bridge does not change. She was JUST as potentially fast before the bridge as she was after the bridge.
You don’t know that. None of us do, actually.
All we know is that Max deened the blast to be the fastest option there.
>So yes, Maxima destroyed the bridge itself, not just knocked off a cable.
She blasted the tip of the major pillar off, if it had been the whole bridge then they’d all be dead.
But fair enough on it going through.
>It’s no more unreasonable than American gunships have when firing their ordinance.
Max isn’t under gunship laws. Her opponents demand higher levels of ordinance than most civilian firearms.
>Maxima, at the time, did NOT know that Sydney could teleport.
No, the team’s other teleporter, Harem, could have gotten them there.
Hell, Harem even teleports directly into Sciona’s base.
>Maxima’s gun
Case in point; it’s a gun that still loses velocity over long distances and can’t injure those with superhuman endurance.
Max’s blasts have neither of those weaknesses and has a track record of never bouncing off.
>Lightsabers can deflect laser blasts, but not slugs and bullets.
Hasn’t been true in this comic. Every barrier and shield before Sciona’s just tanked the blasts, not bounce them away.
Sciona already saw Max and was prepared for her in the previous scene, we don’t know what her energy blasts sound like when not exploding or charging up, and like I said it’s never happened before.
>And they ended up hard enough to be about to rupture eardrums of people a fair distance away and risk destroying the ballroom from just the shockwave of the punches.
1)Yes, that’s how escalating force works.
2)Obvious exaggeration? If they were “strong enough to destroying the ballroom” then those people would be dead.
Or at least seizing up on the ground and clutching their ears.
>then a punch even close to Sydney at that level of power would have hurt her a lot
Didn’t hurt anyone else in the room, or Dabbler, or the guy in stealth.
>Neither Maxima or Sydney had any idea what physiological effects actually managing to break Sydney’s shield would have on Sydney
Sydney seemed prepared to take that risk considering she was egging Max on as the punches got stronger.
“Still a threat then.”
Stay out of my way while I talk to my woman if you know what’s good for you is a threat, sure. Again, in a very ‘puffing’ sort of way. Not a ‘I will do this’ but rather an ‘If you get in my way, THEN I will do this’
It’s a moot point though since, like we BOTH agree, the pre-bodyslam actions are quite different than the post bodyslam actions in regards to Tom’s behavior.
“Yup, basically confirmation.”
Tom did not give confirmation. He said no. Saying no is the opposite of giving confirmation.
Saying yes would be confirmation. Because the assistant already realized BEFORE he said that that it was NOT going to be an invasion after all – just a booty call.
“You don’t know that. None of us do, actually.”
Actually we DO know that. We know that because we’ve seen several examples of how fast Maxima can move.
1) We saw her able to get from the bank to ARCHON tower to ‘discipline’ Harem within seconds, and ARCHON tower is at least a significant distance from the bank. Definitely a LOT farther than the distance between Maxima and Sciona pre-bridge
2) We know that Maxima’s top speed it at LEAST faster than Mach 4, probably significantly so, since When Sydney’s speed topped out at Mach 4 (before her upgrade), Maxima said it put her FIRMLY as the second fastest flier – which is because Maxima is (or was, depending on if Maxima is faster than Mach 16) the fastest flier.
3) We’ve also seen how long it takes for her plasma bolt to travel from her hand to the target, several times – with the tank, with the testing of Sydney’s shield on the range, and with firing at Sciona. It looks like Maxima literally can move FASTER than the plasma blast.
4) Maxima has already been shown to be able to move so fast that she can catch bullets out of midair. The fastest bullets can travel at 5000 feet per second. The slowest bullet travels at around 600 feet per second. Most average bullets travel anywhere from high subsonic to Mach 4 for conventional firearms, and the median velocity for average pistol rounds is about Mach 1.2, while the average rifle round is about Mach 2.2.
Maxima can move faster AND react than the fastest bullets, apparently with ease.
“All we know is that Max deened the blast to be the fastest option there.”
We do not know that she deemed the blast to be the fastest. We just know she chose to blast instead of tackle. I think it’s because Maxima is sometimes reckless when using her powers when other options are better.
“Case in point; it’s a gun that still loses velocity over long distances and can’t injure those with superhuman endurance.”
It takes a longer distance than the distance between Maxima and Sciona for a bullet to lose its velocity to any significantly degree though.
“Max’s blasts have neither of those weaknesses and has a track record of never bouncing off.”
Where are you getting that it has a track record of that?
“Hasn’t been true in this comic.”
“Every barrier and shield before Sciona’s just tanked the blasts, not bounce them away.”
Yes, but we’ve seen what happened to SYDNEY’S PPO plasma blast when used against the Super Mannekiller’s shield. It ricocheted off, and caused a forest fire.
The point being there’s precedent that shields CAN cause ricochets when hit by energy blasts, and Maxima would be aware of that because she knew about what happened with the super mannekiller. Who’s shield looked like it behaved a LOT like how Sciona’s wings behave when acting like a shield.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-511-rapid-fire-starter/
(panel 8)
“we don’t know what her energy blasts sound like when not exploding or charging up,”
Sciona would, since Maxima using her plasma blast were shown on TV -multiple times- before that comic strip. During the tank example and during the restaurant fight (twice – once against Hex and once against Vehemence). Remember, all that was televised on national TV.
“2)Obvious exaggeration? If they were “strong enough to destroying the ballroom” then those people would be dead.
Or at least seizing up on the ground and clutching their ears”
I don’t think you understand how tall a central bridge tower is. The Brooklyn Bridge’s central tower, for example as an analog to the bridge Maxima blew up, is 272 feet above where the cars would be. That’s a lot different than ‘being in the same room’ or ‘being a few inches away from the blast.’
“Didn’t hurt anyone else in the room, or Dabbler, or the guy in stealth.”
1) Dabbler was not in the room at the time. The punching of the shield was Strips 90 and 93. Dabbler is not called into the room until strip 100.
2) X (the man or woman in stealth) was also not in the room until strip 100, since they are shadowing Dabbler, and Dabbler was not in the room until strip 100.
3) It WAS hurting other people in the room, like General Faulk.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-93-sydney-is-possibly-the-only-person-to-get-away-with-this/
(panel 5)
“Sydney seemed prepared to take that risk considering she was egging Max on as the punches got stronger.”
1) I would not consider Sydney, at least at that point in time, to be someone who has the best survival sense, given her penchant for getting herself injured with a variety of bruises.
2) By that point, Sydney realized that the last punch did not feel different than the first, but MAXIMA did not know that. Because she literally ASKS Sydney that, after the fact, in panel 7.
Then Maxima had to be reminded AGAIN to stop punching hard enough to shatter windows (and eardrums) when she punched Dabbler and hit HER shield. And you can see that the shockwave from that punch also bounces off even DABBLER’S shield, and winds up cracking a window. Sydney was not hurt from that, despite being closer to it, because she was still bubbled up in her shield.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-102-dabblers-gunnin-for-kp/
(panels 1, 2, and 3)
>Again, in a very ‘puffing’ sort of way.
Tom should learn to not try ‘puffing’ to military officers about killing them and taking over the world.
>Tom did not give confirmation. He said no.
After Dabbler had sex with him. Before then even his close assistant thought they were going to invade.
>Actually we DO know that. We know that because we’ve seen several examples of how fast Maxima can move.
None of those examples are relevant since Sciona is portrayed in that scene as being quite speedy herself. They explicitly call her supersonic and while obviously not as fast as Max, that doesn’t mean Max could instantly catch up any time she wanted.
Hence the chase scene.
>We’ve also seen how long it takes for her plasma bolt to travel from her hand to the target
Not really? We’ve gotten no frame of reference for how fast the blasts are. We know that Max can deliberately delay their explosions, but aside from that? Nothin’.
They could be slower than a bullet or near lightspeed since they haven’t been compared to anything else.
Like this scene here:
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-327-ask-a-self-evident-question/
Where there isn’t even a transition scene and it looks like the target instantly exploded.
>We do not know that she deemed the blast to be the fastest. We just know she chose to blast instead of tackle.
We know she could only get close enough to tackle until sever seconds/hundreds of miles later.
>Where are you getting that it has a track record of that?
Every other time we’ve seen her use them and they never bounce off? Even Sydney’s shield doesn’t bounce them, they just explode on impact.
>Yes, but we’ve seen what happened to SYDNEY’S PPO plasma blast when used against the Super Mannekiller’s shield. It ricocheted off, and caused a forest fire.
Max and Sydney have wildly different powers with different energy sources.
And one has significantly more experience fighting super than the other.
Plus; Sydney was eplicity using a less concentrated and weaker version of her power in that scene.
Not to mention that Sciona’s wings and the golems shields don’t look at all similar.
>Sciona would
No, I mean, we don’t know.
As in they could be the loudest things ever or near-silent volleys of energy.
>That’s a lot different than ‘being in the same room’ or ‘being a few inches away from the blast.’
That doesn’t at all address my point: If they were “strong enough to destroying the ballroom” then those people would be dead.
Or at least seizing up on the ground and clutching their ears. There are several, normal people in the room while Max is punching.
>It WAS hurting other people in the room, like General Faulk.
No, he just told her to stop before it did. He looks and acts fine. The paper on the desk isn’t even ruffled.
It just got too loud, dude.
> I would not consider Sydney, at least at that point in time, to be someone who has the best survival sense, given her penchant for getting herself injured with a variety of bruises.
How is that Max’s fault? If they both agreed to test the shield, then no one is at fault there.
>Because she literally ASKS Sydney that, after the fact, in panel 7.
I feel like Max could infer that based on how Syd is just goofing around behind the shield at that point.
>Sydney was not hurt from that, despite being closer to it, because she was still bubbled up in her shield.
And it hurts no one else either.
“Tom should learn to not try ‘puffing’ to military officers about killing them and taking over the world.”
Again a moot point since that’s pre-bodyslam, and has nothing to do with the skull crushing. He’s obviously learned not to engage in puffery with Maxima. It doesnt seem to help though since Maxima is still acting like a violent sadist even after the bodyslam. :)
“After Dabbler had sex with him. Before then even his close assistant thought they were going to invade.”
What his assistant thinks or doesnt think doesn’t matter unless that assistant is allowed to declare war. When he asked the person who DOES have that authority, he was told no. And the assistant was primarily concerned with the powerpoint presentation, not an invading army. Probably because he put a lot of work into it, poor guy.
“None of those examples are relevant since Sciona is portrayed in that scene as being quite speedy herself. They explicitly call her supersonic and while obviously not as fast as Max,”
Hiro can move at Mach 1, so that’s supersonic as well. But Maxima is much faster than him. Sydney was able to go at Mach 4, before the Squidward upgrade, and Maxima was also faster than her. Considering how Maxima was able to CATCH UP TO SCIONA after the bridge, even though Maxima had to take a few seconds to do an emergency patch of the bridge, that shows that she is MUCH faster than Sciona. I’m not sure why you ignore that – as if Maxima was not capable of being as fast before the bridge as she is after the bridge.
Every time I’ve brought that up, you’ve seemed to ignore responding to it.
“Hence the chase scene.”
Not only is Maxima faster, in fact, she also HAD THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE until Sciona’s sensors detected Maxima. And Maxima can react a LOT faster than Sciona as well, as we’ve seen in the later fight in Sciona’s mountain lair.
“We know she could only get close enough to tackle until sever seconds/hundreds of miles later.”
It was not even long enough for Sciona to say a single complete sentence. I don’t know where you’re getting hundreds of miles from. You can SEE the mountains even in the bridge scene. Then you can still see the mountains when she gets tackled later.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-616-superhero-triage/
“Max and Sydney have wildly different powers with different energy sources.
And one has significantly more experience fighting super than the other.”
The point is that energy shields reflecting energy blasts is something THAT MAXIMA KNOWS CAN HAPPEN. And she knows that Sciona’s wings are energy-based. This is an OBVIOUS risk. She did not even try to mitigate the risk by doing something that cannot be subject to ricochet.
I have no idea why you’re soo hell-bent on claiming that Maxima NEVER makes any mistakes that cause real problems – it’s like you’re trying to show that she is, in fact, a Mary Sue.
“No, he just told her to stop before it did. He looks and acts fine. The paper on the desk isn’t even ruffled.”
He was holding his ears and Arianna said she was going to shatter the windows. Then when Maxima punches at Dabbler’s shield, it DOES crack the window.
“It just got too loud, dude.”
The window cracked because of the concussive wave FROM the loud sound, dude.
“How is that Max’s fault? If they both agreed to test the shield, then no one is at fault there.”
Because Maxima is supposed to be a trained soldier who should understand basic testing safety, while Sydney is an amateur comic book store owner, who is not expected to know this sort of thing.
If you ask a child if you can strap wings onto him and toss him off the roof, and he thinks ‘YEAH THATS COOL! I’LL FLY LIKE SUPERMAN!’ then when the kid gets hospitalized, you’d be more at fault than the stupid kid. :)
“I feel like Max could infer that based on how Syd is just goofing around behind the shield at that point.”
It didnt look like Max was inferring anything except ‘grr I want to show her that I can break that force field.’ …. she even literally SAYS ‘grr’ as she’s trying to punch even harder. Normally, Maxima doesnt put much effort into her strength because it’s so extremely high level.
>What his assistant thinks or doesnt think doesn’t matter
It does when I’m talking about what Tom initially wanted to do.
>Not only is Maxima faster, in fact, she also HAD THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE until Sciona’s sensors detected Maxima.
Her sensors picked up Max?
Wow, It’s almost as if Max couldn’t just instantly close the distance between them.
>If you ask a child if you can strap wings onto him and toss him off the roof
If you’re going to portray something that two consenting adults agreed to with relatively low stakes as Max’s fault and a sign of “destructive behavior” then I really think you should stop.
The punches Max hit Sydney’s shield with did no damage to their surroundings whatsoever and were only portrayed as being loud.
If Max were to get permission to do anything with just a slight risk of danger, you’d say it’s her fault because you’re that biased against the character.
“It does when I’m talking about what Tom initially wanted to do.”
Except you’re ASSUMING what Tom intended to do, rather than what the evidence is showing he intended to do.
You’re assuming that he intended to have Dexon invade with Thothogoth’s army.
What is shown is actually that he intended to have Dexon check with him to see if they WOULD be invading. It’s different. One is intent to invade, period. The other is intent to have invasion as a possible backup if it turned out to be necessary.
So what Tom initially intended to do was have the army as a backup for a potential invasion, should it become necessary. Otherwise, Dexon would not have come through ON HIS OWN, asking if the invasion was going to happen, carrying his powerpoint presentation (which is apparently the primary option) – he would have been coming through with a full army from the get-go.
“Her sensors picked up Max?”
Yes, you can see that her sensors pick up Maxima. Not immediately, but after she’s tailing Sciona for a bit.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-614-stratotail/
(panel 2)
“Wow, It’s almost as if Max couldn’t just instantly close the distance between them.”
I have no idea WHERE you’re getting that. It’s already clear in the page I linked to that discovering she was being tailed was NOT immediate. And we already know that Maxima can cover VAST distances in the time that it takes for a TV signal to travel from broadcast to the TV, in under a few seconds. She’s a LOT closer to Sciona than the distance that she was from the bank to Archon HQ.
So yes, she COULD have instantly closed the distance between them. With EASE.
“If you’re going to portray something that two consenting adults agreed to with relatively low stakes as Max’s fault and a sign of “destructive behavior” then I really think you should stop”
Why do you assume they had any reason to KNOW that it would be low stakes? You have no reason to believe that, except by using audience metaknowledge that they, the characters, do not possess in ANY way.
“If Max were to get permission to do anything with just a slight risk of danger, you’d say it’s her fault because you’re that biased against the character.”
I am not biased against the character. I just point out when she has flaws and don’t bend over backwards to defend obvious mistakes and flaws that she makes which should have an actual penalizing result from moral, ethical, legal, and strategic standpoint. Because I do NOT consider Maxima to be a Mary Sue, nor a perfect character. I consider perfect characters to be boring and badly made characters, but I don’t consider Maxima to be poorly made or boring, since she has a very good possible backstory which has only been cursorily hinted at a few times.
But if she always was justified in her over-violent, sometimes psychotic, sometimes unconstititional or bullying or reckless actions, then she would NOT be as interesting. I don’t tend to white knight for fictional characters – I look to see if they have flaws like a real person does, and i don’t think make excuse after excuse for it to dismiss those flaws.
That is different than being biased. Critiquing a character’s behavior is not the same as hating the c haracter or being ‘against’ the character. Watch any Pitch Meeting youtube skit – they comment on every possible flaw of character actions, but it doesn’t mean they hate the movie or TV show.
>Except you’re ASSUMING what Tom intended to do, rather than what the evidence is showing he intended to do.
The evidence so far is that he showed up, threatened to kill Max and take over earth with his army, then it’s revealed his army was actually prepared in such a way/or his assistant was directly told that an invasion was on until he stepped in to check again.
>What is shown is actually that he intended to have Dexon check with him to see if they WOULD be invading.
You don’t know that. (Getting a lot of mileage out of this phrase)
Tom never say that he intended for Dexon to check on him and see if they would invade. Dexon walks on in on them having sex for reasons we simply don’t know.
Maybe he was just worried that his boss was taking so long.
>I have no idea WHERE you’re getting that.
Based on the fact that Max couldn’t.
She wasn’t tailing Sciona. Max was actively chasing her, and Sciona apparently still had enough of a headstart that she couldn’t just speed up and catch her before she reached it.
>Why do you assume they had any reason to KNOW that it would be low stakes?
Low stakes as far as they know. Sydney would have said something if she felt any feedback from the shield and Max’s punches started off weak before escalating.
The point of testing a power is to figure out the exact stakes.
>I am not biased against the character.
You quite literally are. You bend over backwards for every antagonist she has faced, even those that directly threaten her life or the place she’s sworn to protect, just to devil’s advocate about how mean Max is to them.
And it’s even more ridiculous here because everyone was fine with the shield testing with Sydney until it got too loud.
“The evidence so far is that he showed up, threatened to kill Max and take over earth with his army, then it’s revealed his army was actually prepared in such a way/or his assistant was directly told that an invasion was on until he stepped in to check again.”
That’s not remotely how it looked. It looked like a very impromptu army was set up JUST IN CASE he would need it. It was not set to go automatically unlesss Tom stopped them afterwards. it was set up so that the only way they would come over would be if Tom said yes. Tom wound up saying no. So there was never an invasion – there was not an invasion that was stopped – the invasion never started in the first place. Just saying otherwise does not make your view of it true.
“You don’t know that. (Getting a lot of mileage out of this phrase)”
Well when you use a phrase incorrectly you’re gonna get good mileage out of it.
I do know that, because the army did not come through FIRST then have Tom say ‘no, no, the invasion is off, go back.’ Tom was asked FIRST if the invasion was on, and Tom said no. The invasion never started, so it wasn’t stopped. You can’t stop something that hasnt even started. Even the PLANNING for it was described as ‘impromptu.’
“Maybe he was just worried that his boss was taking so long.”
That doesnt even make sense from an invasion planning standpoint to first send your leader ahead, if you are planning to definitely invade a place which you KNOW has defenses in place capable of turning back a powerful attacking force (ie, the Fel Supercarrier). He was there for Xuriel, as evidenced by him SAYING HE WAS THERE FOR XURIEL in the very first sentence.
“She wasn’t tailing Sciona.”
They LITERALLY SAID THEY WERE TAILING SCIONA.
Please READ THE PERTINENT COMIC when you make comments about it
Look, I’m going to show you the EXACT PLACE where Maxima says the PLAN is to tail her back to her base.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-612-thunderbirds-are-go/
(panel #3)
“I’m going out to track her visually, otherwise we can lose her if she goes subsonic. I’ll engage IF I HAVE TO, but I’d PREFER TO FOLLOW HER BACK TO HER BASE OF OPERATIONS SO WE CAN FINALLY FIGURE OUT WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.”
Also, she’s loading her gun, because ‘engaging’ actually meant, in her mind at the time, shooting her. Not firing a gd plasma blast at her, which did not work out well at all.
So again, tell me how she wasn’t tailing Sciona. AFter she said she was tailing Sciona.
Also why would she say ‘Sciona’s spotted me’ if she was not trying to TAIL her. You don’t say someone’s spotted you if you’re trying to ACTIVELY ATTACK. They’d obviously spot you WHILE YOU’RE ATTACKING.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-614-stratotail/
(last panel)
“Based on the fact that Max couldn’t.”
She LITERALLY DID CATCH HER after the bridge part happened. I have no idea why you’re being so obstinate about this.
“You quite literally are. You bend over backwards for every antagonist she has faced,”
No. You bend over backwards to DEFEND her. I’ve actually defended her during the Vehemence fight, and I’ve defended her when Oberon would call her a Mary Sue. I also defend her when people call her a boring character. Here’s the difference between us – I don’t let the character have a pass when she does something wrong, but I also don’t unfairly judge her just because she’s overpowered. You, on the other hand, seem to think she can do no wrong. You’re basically acting like a fanboy, which is not a good way to argue that she isnt a Mary Sue.
Plus you keep arguing the same thing over and over, and keep ignoring each place where I disputed it. You say something, I show how you’re wrong…. you say the same thing again. I explain in another way how you’re wrong…. you say the same thing a third time. That’s why this thread has gone on for days after the strip ended. You’re not actually progressing the argument.
>It looked like a very impromptu army was set up JUST IN CASE he would need it.
And his “just in case” scenario seemed to include Max asking him questions.
So I’ll forgive for assuming he was more aggressive than he truly was.
>That doesnt even make sense from an invasion planning standpoint to first send your leader ahead
It does if he’s the Maxima of there army. Which seems to like to carry himself as.
>They LITERALLY SAID THEY WERE TAILING SCIONA.
That is fair enough, I had forgotten that part.
>She LITERALLY DID CATCH HER after the bridge part happened
Exactly, after they had already passed.
>I don’t let the character have a pass when she does something wrong
Neither do I. We simply disagree about what is wrong.
“And his “just in case” scenario seemed to include Max asking him questions.”
She wasn’t just asking questions though. She was telling him to leave. Rudely. Which gets in the way of his dealing with Xuriel.
“So I’ll forgive for assuming he was more aggressive than he truly was.”
Oh he was definitely more VERBALLY aggressive than he needed to be, but he didnt immediately respond with having his army come through. He responded with similar tough talk. Puffery.
Again, moot point since post-bodyslam Tom acts a lot different than pre-bodyslam Tom, who was already not actually doing anything more than tough talk.
“It does if he’s the Maxima of there army. Which seems to like to carry himself as.”
He’s clearly second in command, not in command. If anything he’s the ‘Hiro’ of the army. Dominus Secunde. Second in Command.
“Exactly, after they had already passed.”
Because she didnt start chasing him again until after the bridge. If she did BEFORE the bridge, she would have caught him just as easily as she did after the bridge.
“Neither do I. We simply disagree about what is wrong.”
I’d like to think that you think that way, but I’ve seen no evidence about you ever not giving Maxima a pass on the things she’s done wrong. I’ve presented multiple examples, and for each one you seem to make excuses for her. You are literally treating her in a way that people define Mary Sues. Can do no wrong, and anyone who thinks she’s in the wrong is themselves wrong or evil.
>She wasn’t just asking questions though. She was telling him to leave. Rudely. Which gets in the way of his dealing with Xuriel.
1)She merely asked him to moderate and explain himself.
2)Him deciding to threaten death and war over a tone isn’t better.
>He’s clearly second in command, not in command.
He’s clearly in charge of this specific incursion though since he went in half-cocked and made no mention of his superior.
>Because she didnt start chasing him again until after the bridge. If she did BEFORE the bridge, she would have caught him just as easily as she did after the bridge.
In the microseconds between those moments, she only had time for a single blast.
>I’d like to think that you think that way, but I’ve seen no evidence about you ever not giving Maxima
I think of Max as wrong when the story presents her as such.
Acting belligerent? She was informing Tom that he had committed a crime (illegal immigration, possibly compounded with trespassing on federal land).
Secondly, you repeatedly keep understating demons authority. What we have seen is that he is in charge of advertising the intermediary government and marshalling the armies, as he stayed he had done so and was not contradicted by his superior. Requiring more evidence to prove that he has authority within the army is just unreasonable given the comic format.
Secondly, Tom is a general. He has armies, plural, and has stated so multiple times. Trying to say that he is not a general is just ignoring that words differ between languages. Whatever his title is, it translates to something equivalent to the title of general as the term is defined.
Also ‘taken as a declaration of war’, meaning that however he intended it, it is understood as a straight up declaration of war.
Dude, are you just here to be an asshole, arguing against what is immediately obvious just to practice Gorgias’ philosophy? It is annoying and you need to learn to seperate the court room from normal conversation. You keep trying to argue along the lines of American law when discussing a comic universe that has demons in it. It is just silly dude.
“Acting belligerent? She was informing Tom that he had committed a crime (illegal immigration, possibly compounded with trespassing on federal land).”
Tell me more about your view that illegal immigration should be met with physical violence? Do you feel that border agents should open fire on people who climb over the southern barriers into the US? Just curious about your stance as it compares to RL on this.
“Secondly, you repeatedly keep understating demons authority.”
I’m assuming you mean Dexon (sp?). I’m not understating anything – I’m not ASSUMING things that have not been shown in the comic though. Dexon is his assistant, and anything about invasion has always been in the form of a question – ‘are we invading? No? Okay.’ It’s very clear from that that he does not have ‘power to declare invasions.’ Dexon seems more focused on wanting to show the powerpoint presentation instead.
“Also ‘taken as a declaration of war’, meaning that however he intended it, it is understood as a straight up declaration of war.”
It was not a declaration of war though.
“Dude, are you just here to be an asshole,”
Between the two of us, which of us is using insults as part of our arguing strategy, and which of us is being civil?
“arguing against what is immediately obvious just to practice Gorgias’ philosophy?”
It’s not immediately obvious, and I think I already made the ‘Devil’s advocate’ joke in another thread.
“It is annoying and you need to learn to seperate the court room from normal conversation.”
It’s entertaining and this is how I engage in normal conversation if I want to provide a vigorous but civil argument.
“You keep trying to argue along the lines of American law”
Cool. I’m an American lawyer so that checks out.
“when discussing a comic universe that has demons in it.”
Cool. I’m an American lawyer who’s also a nerd about comics, so that checks out.
“It is just silly dude.”
You’ve clearly never been on Quora or CBR to see the comic nerd arguments there. Pretty much any argument about comics is ‘silly.’ Arguments on if Superman would beat Goku is ‘silly.’ It’s also fun.
You are confusing whether or not someone is using vulgarity with whether or not someone is being civil. You are being needlessly argumentative repeatedly well past any point of reasonableness. You are using blue and orange logic to try to defend/prosecute characters in defiance to actual logic. You keep purposefully picking the ‘wrong’ option and seeing how far you can take it, by which translates into annoying people until they stop engaging with you. That isn’t civil.
For the record, Maxima didn’t shoot people climbing over fences. That is a false equivalence and another example of the looney tunes logic you are such a fan of.
In real life, the people climbing over the fences are refugees of one sort or another. For the most part, they are just regular people, non belligerent civilians I mean.
Tom on the other hand started an argument immediately and when told to either calm down or leave, he threatened to have a lt colonel murdered, “my grace alone will determine whether or not you live”. The escalation at that point was Maxima throwing him to the ground in a manner unlikely to even bruise too bad.
And again, where in that sequence of events did maxima do something equivalent to shooting people for committing a civil infraction?
Lastly, you keep maintaining that dexon is just an assistant and equivalent to a secretary on earth, while also ignoring all of the things that dexon has actually done. He marshalled tom’s armies in preperation for what dexon at least believed (most likely because tom told dexon it was) an invasion. He also appears to be in charge of the power point that the puppet government would receive, which suggests he functions as a handler for the puppet government. You keep just conveniently ignoring that and all of the times that dexon or tom says “invasion”, a grammatical variation of invasion, or a synonym.
“You are confusing whether or not someone is using vulgarity with whether or not someone is being civil.”
The word slave is not vulgarity. Especially after Dabbler stated that is actually what she is in her relationship with Tom, and that it was ‘fine.’ And that she’s clearly okay with it, which implies that it’s probably different than Earth’s use of the word (at least in how Maxima is thinking of it). If anything, the normal implication is that it would be like a dominatrix/slave thing, because of the ‘collar’ comment, not a ‘plantation slaver/slave’ thing.
“He marshalled tom’s armies in preperation for what dexon at least believed”
Dexon was obviously mistaken, since it turned out to be a booty call, not an invasion.
“which suggests he functions as a handler for the puppet government.”
Concerned stakeholders does not mean puppet government. It seems to mean equal partners, because he did specifically say it would not be subjugation. Plus apparently ENTIRELY voluntary.
” You keep just conveniently ignoring that and all of the times that dexon or tom says “invasion””
Tom never says invasion.
Dexon only ever says it as a question, not as a declaration.
Btw, I skipped over this part of your post because it was a tangent and mainly insults or ad hominem attacks… but….
“You are using blue and orange logic to try to defend/prosecute characters in defiance to actual logic.”
The only reference I can think of with the term ‘blue and orange logic’ would be the colors of portals on a Portal Gun in Portal. Which is based on physics. Which is a logical and real thing.
Therefore, what I’m saying is, according to your statement, as logical as physics. :)
“You keep purposefully picking the ‘wrong’ option and seeing how far you can take it,”
No, I keep bringing up reasonable arguments. You just don’t like the arguments.
“by which translates into annoying people until they stop engaging with you.”
If that was the case, it clearly doesnt work because people are frequently engaging with my posts and do not stop one bit. :)
“That isn’t civil.”
It’s definitely civil. Speech and arguments are civil. I don’t insult people. I don’t namecall. I don’t use strawman arguments and try my hardest to never use an ad hominem attack, despite getting them directed at me frequently by certain people.
Also a lot of people really enjoy the posts. If you don’t, you are free to not respond to them. I’ll be devastated but I will figure out how to persevere without your responses. Somehow.
>Do you think that if there was a peace talk
Except this isn’t a peace talk. It’s a giant monster with a size complex who started threatening people and things like he owned the place and then got his ass handed to him.
I don’t even know why you’re invested in this. Tom is obviously an asshole who is used to stomping around and taking over weaker forces than him and ruling their worlds. (All over a past lover no-less.)
Max teaching him a little humility will hopefully also save other planets from his petulant, ill-advised rage.
“Except this isn’t a peace talk.”
I used peace talk as an example because I don’t want to envision Xi Jinping visiting Biden to get a booty call with Kamala. I would rather be able to sleep at night without nightmares.
” It’s a giant monster with a size complex who started threatening people and things like he owned the place and then got his ass handed to him.”
After which he behaved and made nothing that could even be construed as a threat. His initial threat, if it can even be called that, was equivalent to Maxima’s original threat. Then after he was bodyslammed… no threats anymore. Just normal conversation.
“I don’t even know why you’re invested in this.”
1) I’m into comic arguments. I’m a comic book nerd. Plus a lawyer.
2) Maxima is doing something ill-advised that makes the safety of Earth more precarious, not less so.
3) It’s narratively unsatisfying to make the ‘threat’ so pathetic and non-aggressive beyond words and the ‘hero’ seem like a bully.
4) Because Tom was set up as being a major threat, not a run-of-the-mill minor threat who can be curb-stomped with laughable ease. It’s a little weird to make a Fiend Arch-Lord who was set up as someone where ‘a great burning would herald his return’ into someone sympathetic and bullied as part of the narrative. When he is, in fact, as you have said, supposed to be presented as more of an a-hole.
“Tom is obviously an asshole who is used to stomping around and taking over weaker forces than him and ruling their worlds.”
Yet he hasn’t been VIOLENT with Earth. He came with a powerpoint presentation instead.
“(All over a past lover no-less.)”
Hooking up with Dabbler seems to have been his main concern, not taking over Earth. Evident by how the entire idea was completely dismissed after a body slam and a sex-romp.
“Max teaching him a little humility”
This isnt teaching humility, it’s crushing his skull because she doesnt like a word being said. And it would not result in what you’re wanting. The rest of his army, and his boss, would likely just change strategy to ‘teach them how to feel anguish and loss by killing others who are important to them, since Maxima cannot be everywhere simultaneously.
She’s being dumb, simply put, to anyone who would be dedicated to teaching HER humility.
“will hopefully also save other planets from his petulant, ill-advised rage.”
I doubt it. See my example of what would more likely happen. Not to mention how this puts Earth even further in the crosshairs of the Xevoarchy by showing Earth to be incapable of diplomacy PLUS being a galactic threat, significantly worse than the Alari on their worst day.
If people are going to judge all Alari by Sciona, which apparently has happened (see Dabbler and Cora’s views of the Alari, vs Sydney’s more nuanced views of them), then people will judge all Earthlings by Maxima – ie, hot headed, unhinged, prone to violence, and needing to be taken down several pegs before she’s directed at them at her government’s behest…. or even on her own just because she gets pissy about an alien saying a word she finds distasteful.
> if it can even be called that
Why are you trying to baby him so much?
He isn’t an innocent peace talker, some poor illegal immigrant, or whatever other analogy you want to throw around. He doesn’t even technically have any rights in the planet he decided to cross over to.
Tom is a grown ass fiend-man. He made a threat, fucked around, and proceeded to find out.
> Maxima is doing something ill-advised that makes the safety of Earth more precarious, not less so.
I doubt that. You have displayed a startling lack of ability to read the tone of the current course of events. Tom isn’t anywhere close to even trying war talk again.
> It’s narratively unsatisfying to make the ‘threat’ so pathetic and non-aggressive beyond words and the ‘hero’ seem like a bully.
> Because Tom was set up as being a major threat
No, Tom was never a big threat. We’ve gotten antagonists before that could match Max physically, escape her consistently, or just plan enough that she can’t interfere.
He was never gonna be one of those things and his dialogue made it obvious. I mean, for god’s sake he introduced himself by declaring he’d take over the planet and kill Max with little preamble; we all knew he was gonna his ass beat.
Even his backstory featured him getting dunked on by Dabbler.
> This isnt teaching humility
Oh, it most certainly is. It’s the most textbook version of “big man gets humbled” I’ve seen in a while.
> Not to mention how this puts Earth even further in the crosshairs of the Xevoarchy by showing Earth to be incapable of diplomacy PLUS being a galactic threat
As Dabbler, her friend, and the various aliens in times square showed: we are perfectly capable of diplomacy and accommodation.
Just don’t come in threatening to take over the planet and to kill one of our strongest defenders.
“Why are you trying to baby him so much?”
I’m playing Fiend’s advocate. Plus pointing out a narrative problem about Maxima that makes her less interesting and/or likeable than she could be as a character. I doubt it’ll actually amount to anything – DaveB clearly has ideas on what to do with his own creation, but hey – got a forum here for comic nerd arguments so I’m gonna make comic nerd arguments.
“He isn’t an innocent peace talker, some poor illegal immigrant, or whatever other analogy you want to throw around.”
And yet the way Maxima is acting and such a violent and one-sided manner literally makes him more sympathetic. Or at least makes him NOT look like as big a villain as he had been foreshadowed to be before this arc. I have to assume that was NOT the intent.
“He doesn’t even technically have any rights in the planet he decided to cross over to.”
No idea on that. The difference between the Grrlpower universe and ours is that the Council exists there. Technically speaking, I could argue that Dabbler could not be an American citizen also, for reasons similar to what you just said, but I’m assuming there are also things written in the Council/US treaties and agreements that cover that. Or at least, I’m not dismissing the possibility that there are.
“No, Tom was never a big threat. We’ve gotten antagonists before that could match Max physically, escape her consistently, or just plan enough that she can’t interfere.”
He was clearly being set up to be one. He was on that big threat splash page, which had either big threats or big-threat-adjacent people in it. Which actually is where we find out about Vehemence, and get a hint about Sciona via her vampire cohorts.
They are ‘special’ antagonists, which DaveB did confirm, and confirmed again a few strips ago when he said:
“Huh, we’ve actually met over half the players on that page now. Might have to come up with another gallery of villains soon.”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-982-no-longer-sleeping-with-the-archenemy/
But apparently he’s been neutered, or it’s a case of a Rian Johnson-style ‘Last Jedi-esque’ subversion of expectations. Sort of like how Snoke was supposed to be set up as a big bad, then turned out to not be.
“I mean, for god’s sake he introduced himself by declaring he’d take over the planet and kill Max with little preamble; we all knew he was gonna his ass beat.”
Ummmm Vehemence was similar in his threats, if you recall. Sciona also made a similar statement when she got back to Alar/Alari Prime.
“Oh, it most certainly is. It’s the most textbook version of “big man gets humbled” I’ve seen in a while.”
Perhaps I did not explain myself well. When I say ‘it’s not teaching humility’ I mean ‘it’s a reasonable assumption to think that Tom has way too much pride to let this turn him humble, and instead would make him obsessed with making Maxima pay for the humiliation she just put him through.’ Or ‘it’s a reasonable assumption to think that Tom’s boss will not take this affront to his authority by turning his second in command into a pathetic puppydog well, and would want to make Maxima regret doing it.’
I’ve given examples of how they could make her regret it, btw. Ways that would leave a permanent mark on her psychologically and emotionally, that she would never be able to get over. But I think those ways would probably be way too dark for the theme so far in this comic. It’s more of an ‘action movie’ thing to do than a ‘superhero comic’ thing to do.
That being said, Hal Jordan (the first human Green Lantern) did deal with something similar happening to him. That infamous refrigerator page.
“As Dabbler, her friend,”
Maxima’s actions towards Dabbler hardly have been diplomatic. :) I’m wondering how many phones and walls Maxima has destroyed when Dabbler repeatedly, as General Faulk put it ‘pokes the hornet’s nest.’
“and the various aliens in times square”
She was under direct orders there. Maxima has a sometimes out-of-control temper but she does usually seem to obey the chain of command when General Faulk gives an order. He’s given her orders several times and she does always obey HIS orders. Which is a positive thing I can admittedly say about Maxima. Although sometimes he has to remind her that he’s her commanding officer.
She should know now to spark interstellar wars against Earth over a mean word by her own common sense, though.
I would argue that Tom may not be the main threat that he represents on that page, just as the vampires instead represented Sciona. It may also be that he’s intended as a subversion of expectations. We’ve seen several of the people on that page, and rather than just fall into a pattern where we know what role they’ll play in the story, and how each arc will go, Tom is something else.
I will admit to being disappointed so far after how much he’s been played up, with Dabbler’s memories of him, and the implication that Max’s powers might have some connection to him. Hopefully there will still be some interesting twists and turns to this arc.
“I would argue that Tom may not be the main threat that he represents on that page, just as the vampires instead represented Sciona”
That is an excellent point, and one I have nentioned elsewhere as a possibility. The fact that he is titles dominus secunde (second in command), which is a title he semi-recently got, based on how Dabbler said that was a new title, means there is a First in command.
“ It may also be that he’s intended as a subversion of expectations”
Yes it might be, but that would be the worst idea narratively imho. Very Last Jedi supreme leader Snoke-ish. It would be very disappointing and nake this arc rather meaningless, so I hope thats not whats happening.
“ Hopefully there will still be some interesting twists and turns to this arc.”
Me too, Tor.
Ps- just curious how you came up with your forum name?
>And yet the way Maxima is acting and such a violent and one-sided manner literally makes him more sympathetic.
Talk shit/threaten a military officer and her entire nation, get hit. Simple as that. You’d have far less sympathy if Max did the same thing to a planet she thought was weaker and got her ass handed to her.
It’s hardly bullying.
>Ummmm Vehemence was similar in his threats, if you recall. Sciona also made a similar statement when she got back to Alar/Alari Prime.
They both had something Tom lacked; build-up.
Chances to display their power and intelligence over the course of dozens of pages.
>‘it’s a reasonable assumption to think that Tom has way too much pride to let this turn him humble, and instead would make him obsessed with making Maxima pay for the humiliation she just put him through.’
Then rejoice. With Max much less likely to kill him now, he has the chance to regroup and think of different strategies besides fighting Max straight up.
>She was under direct orders there.
So Max, as far as the wider alien community knows, is a soldier willing to follow diplomatic orders. With the only exception being people that grope her, threaten to kill her, and invading Fel armies.
Great, glad we agree.
“Talk shit/threaten a military officer and her entire nation, get hit.”
He already got hit with the bodyslam. The skull crushing has NOTHING to do with that. The threat had already been completely neutralized at that point. The skull crushing is from the word ‘slave’ being directed at Dabbler, and Dabbler saying that it was an accurate term to be used.
Lets not be disingenuous now, okay? You’re trying to conflate two different incidents when there was a calming down period and period of peace between those moments.
Extreme example:
There’s a hostage situation. Then the hostage taker lets everyone go and gives up his or her hostilities.
Then the police shoots him because the FORMER hostage taker called a different cop, who was being a jerk, a jerk.
The police who shoots him can’t then argue ‘but he was holding a hostage so I was in my rights to shoot him!’ Because he was no longer HOLDING A HOSTAGE. The danger had already passed and no threats were happening anymore.
“It’s hardly bullying.”
It’s definitely bullying.
“Chances to display their power and intelligence over the course of dozens of pages.”
Tom actually has possibly the LONGEST build-up of any character in the entire comic, starting on Comic #177.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-177-intergalactic-baggage/
Then he was mentioned in the ‘big threat splash page.’
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-186-fingers-to-maximum-steepleage/
Then Tom was mentioned by Cora after Sydney returned to Earth after Sydney returned from deep space during her party
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-737-succubus-couture/
(panel 4)
“With Max much less likely to kill him now, he has the chance to regroup and think of different strategies besides fighting Max straight up.”
That’s not exactly a good thing for Earth, now is it? It’s the exact opposite of what Maxima is supposed to be doing – maintaining the status quo, as Deus, Paragon of humanity and mentor to all, had very accurately assessed all praise Deus amen.
“So Max, as far as the wider alien community knows, is a soldier willing to follow diplomatic orders.”
And if she hasn’t been given direct orders, she’s a loose cannon who is prone to acts of incredible violence if not constantly on a metaphorical leash by her superiors. Which they usually don’t put her on.
“With the only exception being people that grope her, threaten to kill her, and invading Fel armies.”
For now. Although others in her government have also implied that they could order her to seize non-hostile aliens’ property, like Cora’s ship, if they do not comply with Earth demands on other things that Earth wants.
“Great, glad we agree.”
I’m pretty sure we didnt agree on much, actually. Maybe a few things but most of this seemed like a disagreement. Unless you’re being sarcastic? I can’t tell.
It’s… complicated, and I don’t think I’d even remember all the reasoning that went into it, but the most relevant bits are that “tora” is Japanese for “tiger”, and “rabi” is kind of a corruption of “rabbit”, and the character “兎”, which means “rabbit” can be pronounced “toe”. My avatar picture is of a rabbit made out of electricity. So there’s just kind of a general theme of “dangerous rabbit”.
Isn’t it interesting how much leeway the audience gives Max and the humans of Earth for the threatening things they say and do, while simultaneously proclaiming that Tom deserves summary execution, basically just for showing up, being less than completely compliant, and boasting about his power or the benefits of his rule?
Well you also have to remember we have a sunken cost in enjoying the comic. :) So we’re likely to forgive little parts here and here that detract from the enjoyment.
ALSO…. a lot of things that might not be enjoyable in the present while reading the comic in a slow reveal will be a lot more enjoyable when reading the comic while binging it.
Case in point, the restaurant fight and the Vehemence fight took over a YEAR. It was a slog if you were going through it in real time, and felt like ‘Vehemence keeps coming up wht new powers out of nowhere and this fight will never end and I will never get back to the ‘day in the life’ stuff that makes the comic interesting arrrrgh’
But then you read it as part of a binge and it flows rather nicely. It’s a completely different feeling to binge read or binge watch something. It was the same way with Breaking Bad. It was a LOT more fun to binge it.
Plus, since we’re in real time and have no idea how long each arc will actually be, and my time machine is in the shop (like I mentioned to Oberon) we are forced to guess on what will happen and don’t have an imediate payout for sometimes many pages in the future. Sometimes it works and makes the story read better (ie, Vehemence and all the twists in who had the upper hand) – sometimes it doesn’t and makes the story read worse (ie, Hench Wench fight going on a lot longer than it needed to).
Grrlpower is something I’d definitely buy once Dave compiles it into a single Graphic Novel or multiple graphic novels, though.
“simultaneously proclaiming that Tom deserves summary execution, basically just for showing up, being less than completely compliant, and boasting about his power or the benefits of his rule?”
I think very frequently they’re looking for an in the moment quick gratification instead of being concerned about the longer term narrative flow. That’s just my opinion though.
>He already got hit with the bodyslam. The skull crushing has NOTHING to do with that.
Oh it does. Because he’s still shouting, puffing himself, and throwing around (as far as Max knows) very insulting language like he’s going to do something.
He’s acting awful rude and lackadaisical for a guy that just tried to kill her. This is just a reminder that it’s not all water under the bridge.
>Extreme example
Also irrelevant since Tom isn’t a hostage-taker. He was a potential invading force and we saw how the team deals with those. (Which his assistant accidentally let slip when he came through a portal and asked if the invasion was still on. He actually was ready to invade.)
Considering how dead the Fel are, Tom got off easy.
>Tom actually has possibly the LONGEST build-up of any character in the entire comic
One is him getting dunked on by Dabbler, I’ll give you the splash page but that isn’t much, and the third is him being talked about like he’s an annoying ex. Not some great and terrible threat.
>That’s not exactly a good thing for Earth, now is it?
He came here ready with an army to invade already and clearly wasn’t receptive to even polite requests to tone himself down.
Nothing Max could have, besides maybe kneeling and groveling to him, would change things if you *really and truly* think Tom is still planning to conquer the planet.
In fact, in a different comment chain, you seem very adamant that what he said initially was puffery. That he didn’t really mean it.
So which is it?
>And if she hasn’t been given direct orders
The only aliens to see Max while not under direct orders is the council alien (who she saved the life of), Dabbler, Cora, the Fel (who are hated and very much dead), and Tom here(the jackass who threatened to kill her and invaded the planet.)
As far as the alien community knows, Max is golden. (No pun intended.)
“Oh it does. Because he’s still shouting, puffing himself, and throwing around (as far as Max knows) very insulting language like he’s going to do something”
Oh it doesn’t. None of his shouting has been remotely a threat. Feel free to show me where it has been.
None of his ‘puffing’ has been about invading or doing anything aggressive – just that his kind are not baby eaters. Unless you’re saying he’s not allowed to say that he is not a baby eater.
The language he ‘threw around’ is the word “slave.” Maxima did not start crushing his skull until Dabbler said ‘It’s fine Max. I am his slave.” She was FINE with it. Maxima had a problem with the word and concept that Dabbler was a slave, despite it being pretty obvious that there’s some probably some sort of unique concept about the word ‘slave’ when dealing with infernals.
So it had NOTHING to do with the invasion talk or ANYTHING before the bodyslam. Not one single thing.
“He’s acting awful rude and lackadaisical for a guy that just tried to kill her.”
I wonder about people today who conflate words with action. He did not ‘try to kill her.’ I do not know how a person’s mind can take a threat (and not much of a threat at that, but lets steelman and call it a threat) and say ‘that’s trying to kill you’.
If you say to me, “If we ever meet, you better be respectful or I am going to beat you up or kill you.” …. guess what.
You did not just try to kill me. You also did not try to beat me up. You made an empty threat instead. And I would not, upon you typing that, be justified to find out everything I can about you RL, and have you executed. Because that would be psychotic
You do realize when I’m ‘sending ninja hit squads’ after people, it’s a joke, right? There are not actually any ninja hit squads.
“This is just a reminder that it’s not all water under the bridge.”
That is INCREDIBLY disingenuous, because that’s not why she’s doing it. She’s doing it because of the slave comment and, more specifically, because Dabbler said that she IS a slave, and that offends Maxima’s sensibilities as an American who probably believes in liberty. Although Maxima doesnt bother to wait for context. Because she is reckless and has a hair trigger temper.
“Also irrelevant since Tom isn’t a hostage-taker. ”
Oh for crying out loud. Do you understand what analogies are? The example is an analogy of action and response – of how intervening acts affect cause and effect, not a word for word direct comparison to every single element. You HAVE to realize that, right? I have a hard time thinking you’re being serious on this argument – but to be fair you might not understand what analogies are. In which case, I will explain.
An analogy is a general comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of an explanation or clarification, not for each element in the two things. In this case, the thing I’m comparing is the existence of INTERVENING ACTS. I hope that I just explained what analogies are.
I’m not trying to be rude btw, I swear, and if I’ve been rude I apologize. I’m just a little thrown by some of the things you are using as arguments.
“Considering how dead the Fel are, Tom got off easy.”
There was no intervening act or intervening period of peace and dialog with the Fel. They were just mindlessly attacking from start to finish. Tom was not. THAT is a bad analogy that you’re making.
“One is him getting dunked on by Dabbler, I’ll give you the splash page but that isn’t much, and the third is him being talked about like he’s an annoying ex. Not some great and terrible threat.”
It’s showing that he’s been foreshadowed to appear in the comic as a villain as far back as 2013. That’s 8 years. That shows a LOT of foreshadowing that he’s meant to be a threat, plus the fact that it’s not JUST the splash page, but literally two other times makes it all the more ‘foreshadowed.’ The fact that he isnt a threat because he’s pathetically weak and helpless compared to Maxima (so far) generally means one of three things:
1) There will be a turnaround, like there was with Vehemence turning the tables on Maxima and BECOMING a major threat later on in this arc;
2) He is not a major dangerous threat himself, but he is ‘major dangerous threat’-adjacent, like Sciona’s vampire cohorts were on the splash page to be adjacent to the real ‘major dangerous threat’ – Sciona.
3) DaveB is pulling a subversion of expectations as it relates to Thothogoth, very much like Rian Johnson did in the Last Jedi with Supreme Leader Snoke, where he was puffed up to make us think he’s be a big bad powerful danger who is a real threat…. and then he dies in two seconds because he suddenly could not predict what Kylo Ren was going to do, and so he is eliminated like a pathetic punk with ease. I don’t personally think that would be very satisfying if that turns out to be the route, because I find subversions of expectation to be lazy writing, but it’s not my story, and I have enough of a sunken cost in reading this that I’m already hooked on the greater Grrlpower storyline for one arc to ruin that for me. I don’t THINK it will be this one, but I’ve been wrong before which is why I usually don’t make predictions, just list the probabilities. When I get my time machine out of the shop or my future sense powers manifest, this might change.
“He came here ready with an army to invade already and clearly wasn’t receptive to even polite requests to tone himself down.”
1) The army isnt here, it hasnt come through the portal
2) After the body slam, everything changed and he is NOT bringing the army here anyway, since it’s NOT an invasion, it’s a booty call. He stated that explicitly twice between the body slam and the skull crushing. Again… These are INTERVENING ACTS that changes the proximate cause between one cause and a different effect. It’s like the Palsgraf vs Long Island Rail Road legal case about proximate cause. Feel free to google the case. It’s a very important court decision.
“Nothing Max could have, besides maybe kneeling and groveling to him, would change things if you *really and truly* think Tom is still planning to conquer the planet.”
The body slam actually DID change his mind. And if that didn’t, the five orgasms via Dabbler did. So no groveling required. He got one stick then five carrots instead.
“In fact, in a different comment chain, you seem very adamant that what he said initially was puffery.”
That’s pre-body slam. The skull crushing is post-body slam. Again. Intervening Acts. Proximate cause is too distant.
“The only aliens to see Max while not under direct orders is the council alien (who she saved the life of), Dabbler, Cora, the Fel (who are hated and very much dead), and Tom here(the jackass who threatened to kill her and invaded the planet.)”
1) She was under direct orders with Dabbler. Multiple times, in fact. Including once on the comic pages where Faulk literally gave her a direct order in the dialog.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-102-dabblers-gunnin-for-kp/
(Panels 2 and 3)
General Faulk: “Colonel, sit your ass DOWN!”
He also gave her an order a few strips earlier to not break her phone when getting angry with Dabbler.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-99-this-is-how-you-tug-on-maximas-cape/
General Faulk: “Do not break another phone, Colonel!”
And a few strips before that as well, with Sydney, because Maxima was getting too stubborn to accept that she could NOT punch through Sydney’s force field.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-93-sydney-is-possibly-the-only-person-to-get-away-with-this/
General Faulk: “Colonel, STOP!”
She was also very likely under direct orders on how to proceed with Cora since she returned to base when they received word that Sydney was back, which means there was coordination between her and her superiors and Dabbler when they found out that Cora had found Sydney in the first place.
“As far as the alien community knows, Max is golden. (No pun intended.)”
1) I don’t know what you mean by this, please explain.
2) To everyone else, FOR GODS SAKE HE SAID NO PUN INTENDED PLEASE DONT MAKE MORE PUNS, MY CREDIT CARD IS GETTING MAXED OUT ON NINJA HIT SQUAD SERVICE PURCHASES.
>So it had NOTHING to do with the invasion talk or ANYTHING before the bodyslam. Not one single thing.
Probably disinclined her towards giving him the benefit of the doubt.
>You did not just try to kill me. You also did not try to beat me up.
Miss type on my part. Besides, Max isn’t trying to kill him here. Just hurting him.
> Do you understand what analogies are?
I understand that your analogies are dumb and don’t provide an accurate comparison of scale.
>Tom was not.
He said he was going to. You don’t need to wait for someone to attack you when responding to what could possibly be a credible threat.
>It’s showing that he’s been foreshadowed to appear in the comic as a villain as far back as 2013. That’s 8 years.
Someone being foreshadowed means they’re going to be important in some capacity in the story. Not necessarily powerful.
>That’s pre-body slam. The skull crushing is post-body slam.
If he’s willing to kill millions of people over his head hurting then I care even less about what Max is doing to him right now.
>She was under direct orders with Dabbler.
My argument was not that Dabbler had never seen Max under orders. So I don’t get why you’d bring up those examples.
“Probably disinclined her towards giving him the benefit of the doubt.”
But the benefit of the doubt about what? He didnt make anything that could even be confused of as a threat at that point to have a doubt about. He called Dabbler ‘slave.’ And Dabbler was saying that was ACCURATE… plus didnt seem bothered by it. THEN Maxima decided to start crushing his skull because she gets psycho when she gets angry. Sometimes rather hypocritically so, considering she calls Dabbler far worse and intentionally insulting things (which are also usually accurate as well).
“Max isn’t trying to kill him here. Just hurting him.”
If you’re trying to crush a person’s skull… that’s lethal force. Not to mention, why even hurt him? He did not do something worth hurting him at that point. Nothing he’s said or done, post bodyslam, is remotely offering an even halfway good excuse to hurt him.
“If he’s willing to kill millions of people over his head hurting then I care even less about what Max is doing to him right now.”
1) Soooo if someone was to crush your head, you would not want revenge?
2) Soooo if someone was to crush the head of someone else…. say… your little brother… you would not want revenge?
3) He was not saying anything remotely like that he was going to kill millions. Or kill ANYONE, post-bodyslam. That’s your headcanon talking right now. In fact, he literally said the opposite, that there would be NO invasion. And then he gets his head crushed.
4) You’re having a rather peculiar relationship with linear time because the only threat made was PRE-bodyslam, and the ‘head crushing’ is post-bodyslam. So unless he was experiencing the future before the past, the sentence you just used makes very little sense.
“My argument was not that Dabbler had never seen Max under orders. So I don’t get why you’d bring up those examples.”
Your argument was, and I’ll quote you, that ‘The only aliens to see Max while not under direct orders is the council alien (who she saved the life of), Dabbler, Cora,’ etc.
I was showing examples of that sentence being incorrect.
>But the benefit of the doubt about what?
That Dabbler isn’t under a traditional form of slavery.
>If you’re trying to crush a person’s skull… that’s lethal force.
She isn’t though. So it’s not.
>Soooo if someone was to crush your head, you would not want revenge?
>Soooo if someone was to crush the head of someone else…. say… your little brother… you would not want revenge?
If I got my head crushed my capacity to exact revenge would be nill. I would be what is known as a corpse.
But presuming I did live: Enough to kill millions in an intergalactic war? No.
>He was not saying anything remotely like that he was going to kill millions. Or kill ANYONE, post-bodyslam. That’s your headcanon talking right now. In fact, he literally said the opposite, that there would be NO invasion.
You’re the one who said he’d invade earth in order to get back at Max for humiliating him, not me.
>I was showing examples of that sentence being incorrect.
What?
“Dabbler has seen Max while she wasn’t under explicit orders” =/= “Max has never been under orders around Dabbler”.
Unless you’re trying to claim that Max is always under orders around Dabbler, which is just objectively not true.
“That Dabbler isn’t under a traditional form of slavery.”
Dabbler is a demon and was SAYING it was fine. Even if she doesnt give Tom the benefit of the doubt, she should be giving DABBLER the benefit of the doubt about her relationship with Tom.
“She isn’t though. So it’s not.”
Uh, she most definitely WAS trying to crush his skull. You can see the cracks. You can hear (via onomatopoeia) the CRRK!
“If I got my head crushed my capacity to exact revenge would be nill. I would be what is known as a corpse.”
Would you think your loved ones would want revenge?
If your ghost was hovering above your headless body, do you think you’d be thinking ‘Man I really hope someone avenges my death at the hand of this psycho woman’
“But presuming I did live: Enough to kill millions in an intergalactic war? No.”
Well I guess you’re better than a Fiend. :)
But seriously speaking, are you assuming you would know that most people don’t have Maxima’s psycho mindset (as far as the head crushee is concerned) as well.
Tom already said that Earth is, and I will quote EXACTLY, “seen as a threat by powers greater than [Earth’s] undisciplined nations can hope to resist. Your assault on me only proves the danger you represent.”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-989-invasion-schminvasion/
(Panel 1)
“You’re the one who said he’d invade earth in order to get back at Max for humiliating him, not me.”
I was saying that is a possible thing that he could do if he was the threat that you are claiming he is. And it’s probably a stupid idea to make that possibility more likely when it doesn’t need to be by just not crushing his head over a word that she doesn’t like.
“Unless you’re trying to claim that Max is always under orders around Dabbler, which is just objectively not true.”
I’m not saying that. I’m saying the times where she gets angry and attacks Dabbler, or look like she’s about to do something violent or destructive only stop because she’s ORDERED to stop by her superior commander, General Faulk. The time when General Faulk isnt around to order her not to result in stuff like Dabbler being sent through a wall. :)
>Dabbler is a demon and was SAYING it was fine
I don’t see how her being a demon would make it better and Max let’s him go shortly after Dabbler explains.
>Uh, she most definitely WAS trying to crush his skull.
If she was, he’d be dead. She cracked whatever counts for his skin, but it’s pretty evident that she’s barely trying.
>Well I guess you’re better than a Fiend. :)
You’re making me feel less and less bad about Tom being hurt.
> (as far as the head crushee is concerned)
Not relevant here.
Most aliens know what humans are. So does Tom;(at least enough to study our society) he just thought he was strong enough to push one of their strongest powers around.
He was wrong.
>if he was the threat that you are claiming he is.
You never stipulated that before
Plus: I said he made a threat not that he still is one.
>only stop because she’s ORDERED to stop by her superior commander, General Faulk.
Again: How is that relevant to my point?
“I don’t see how her being a demon would make it better and Max let’s him go shortly after Dabbler explains.”
Because Dabbler, being a demon of extreme intelligence, would understand the context of a Fiend like Tom saying that a lot better than Maxima, a human super of average-ish intelligence, would. Dabbler certainly even knows more about demonkind, being a demon herself of considerably extreme intelligence, than ARCHON’s own resident demonologist (Zephon).
“If she was, he’d be dead. She cracked whatever counts for his skin, but it’s pretty evident that she’s barely trying.”
Given that his horns were also cracking, and his ‘face’ is connected to the horns, I’m pretty sure that Tom’s face is actually bone. IE, part of his skull is also outside of his body. Demon physiology.
“You’re making me feel less and less bad about Tom being hurt.”
Yeah you’re also basing your answer on KNOWING that humanity is not the danger that the rest of the galaxy things Earth is. Since you live on Earth.
Sooo lets change it up to an alien species that you do NOT know a lot about as a human.
Lets say it’s the ‘Bugs’ in Starship Troopers, and you somehow managed to communicate with the brain bug (or the bug god from Starship Troopers 3) for negotiations, And that bug killed your crew and almost murdered you but you managed to get away.
You wouldnt want to blow up that planet and every Bug on it?
Because that’s what actually wound up happening in Starship Troopers 3. :) That killed trillions of Bugs. Would you have instead instituted a ‘live and let live’ strategy with the bugs, despite them showing themselves to be naturally aggressive and willing (and even wanting) to kill you and others of your kind?
“Most aliens know what humans are.”
Most aliens know what humans are. Most aliens were NOT familiar with TERRAN humans though, until the Fel Supercarrier destruction by Maxima.
Cora already said there’s a significant distinction between just ‘human’ and ‘humans from Earth’ (Terrans).
Sort of like there’s a difference in Stargate SG-1 between the Ja’faa, the Tolan, the Ashen, the Galaran, Michael’s Wraith Hybrids, and tha Tau’ri. They’re all humans, or at least partially human with the Wraith Hybrids, but they’re VERY different in almost all ways – biologically, technologically, societally, etc.
Even humans who are not biologically different on Earth vs humans on Abydos (Abydonians), are MASSIVELY different societally, technologically, and philosophically.
So no, there’s no reason Tom should think he would know that Earth is NOT a danger. Because he knows that the Xevoarchy thinks Earth is a danger. So does the Galactic News Network, and GNN is the most trusted name in galactic news.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-981-victory-pose/
(See panel 5)
‘Earth: A planet in CHAOS. 1800 Currencies. 200 Countries. 2000 languages. Diplomatic efforts slowed by infighting among residents.’
‘Fel Supercarrier downed in a single shot by pre-FTL civilization.’
“Plus: I said he made a threat not that he still is one.”
If he is no longer a threat, then lethal force, or ANY force for that matter that can cause injury, is unwarranted.
“Again: How is that relevant to my point?”
It implies a series of behavior by Maxima, where she goes overboard on the violence unless told not to by her superiors. That’s how it’s relevant. Maxima was going overboard here, with the skull crushing.
>Because Dabbler, being a demon of extreme intelligence, would understand the context of a Fiend like Tom saying that a lot better than Maxima, a human super of average-ish intelligence, would.
And then Max listens to her.
>Yeah you’re also basing your answer on KNOWING that humanity is not the danger that the rest of the galaxy things Earth is. Since you live on Earth.
So do a lot of aliens. They can even semi-freely visit whenever they so choose. And have been doing so for quite a while.
>Sooo lets change it up to an alien species that you do NOT know a lot about as a human.
Irrelevant since humans are widely known in Grrlverse. Find a better example.
>Most aliens know what humans are. Most aliens were NOT familiar with TERRAN humans though
They easily could be. The intergalactic community happily immigrates on and off earth while consuming the media therein.
This is revealed when we first meet the council’s alien representative. Aliens have been interacting with Terran society since at least the times of the ancient Egyptians.
>If he is no longer a threat, then lethal force, or ANY force for that matter that can cause injury, is unwarranted.
Fair enough. But it’s hardly lethal.
>It implies a series of behavior by Maxima, where she goes overboard on the violence unless told not to by her superiors.
But how is that relevant to my point?
Which is:
The only aliens to see Max while not under direct orders is the council alien (who she saved the life of), Dabbler, Cora, the Fel (who are hated and very much dead), and Tom here(the jackass who threatened to kill her and invaded the planet.)
As far as the alien community knows, Max is golden. (No pun intended.)
“You do realize that you just proclaimed invincibility, and then immediately challenged someone to a fight, right?”
“Gasp! A guaranteed loss!”
“And then Max listens to her.”
After she is ALREADY CRUSHING HIS SKULL.
“Irrelevant since humans are widely known in Grrlverse. Find a better example.”
You are, again, conflating terran humans with humans, which the comic itself says are completely different, according to Cora in the press conference. And according to what we’ve seen of the aliens who were video-ing Sydney when she was eating Grakz on the Fracture.
So no. NOT irrelevant. Not even slightly irrelevant. Very, very, very relevant.
“They easily could be. The intergalactic community happily immigrates on and off earth while consuming the media therein.”
They aren’t. As we see from the tourism scam by Ray.
For every Greenie, there’s a few billion (or a few trillion) who have no idea about anything about Earth before the Galactic News Network reports. It’s like saying that I’m familiar with Hawi or Hilo Hawaii because I’ve been there a lot … but most people probably are not remotely familiar with it, and probably have never even HEARD of those cities. How many people ever heard of Aleppo before Gary Johnson said publicly that he did not know what Aleppo was? Heck, most Americans can’t spot American Samoa on a map, if they even know what American Samoa is.
“Fair enough. But it’s hardly lethal.”
I’d say that having one’s skull crushed is definitely attempting a lethal attack. For example, put your head in a vice and let someone start crushing your skull. As soon as you hear a few cracks, they stop. That’s still a lethal attack, even if they’re stopping before the ACTUALLY kill you.
Or think of it like a DnD role playing game. There’s a difference between lethal attacks and non-lethal attacks, even if the lethal attack does not kill in one move.
“But how is that relevant to my point?”
As we say in the law, it’s evidence of a ‘pattern of conduct’ or ‘pattern of behavior’ – which is the whole point of this thread – that Maxima engages in violence even when she should not because she acts recklessly.
I think that this thread has gone on so long that you may have lost track of the points which we were arguing about. :)
>They aren’t. As we see from the tourism scam by Ray.
Yes, they do. Cora and Dabbler tell us as much.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-461-clandestilen/
You are flat out wrong here.
>That’s still a lethal attack, even if they’re stopping before the ACTUALLY kill you.
It’s merely injury if they stop before it kills.
>I think that this thread has gone on so long that you may have lost track of the points which we were arguing about
No, I made that point in response to you saying that Max is making humans/earth look violent because of her actions.
“Not to mention how this puts Earth even further in the crosshairs of the Xevoarchy by showing Earth to be incapable of diplomacy PLUS being a galactic threat, significantly worse than the Alari on their worst day.
If people are going to judge all Alari by Sciona, which apparently has happened (see Dabbler and Cora’s views of the Alari, vs Sydney’s more nuanced views of them), then people will judge all Earthlings by Maxima – ie, hot headed, unhinged, prone to violence, and needing to be taken down several pegs before she’s directed at them at her government’s behest…. or even on her own just because she gets pissy about an alien saying a word she finds distasteful.”
Which is just plain not true because, as I’ve said before and you’ve yet to disprove:
The only aliens to see Max while not under direct orders is the council alien (who she saved the life of), Dabbler, Cora, the Fel (who are hated and very much dead), and Tom here(the jackass who threatened to kill her and invaded the planet.)
As far as the alien community knows, Max is golden. (No pun intended.)
“And then Max listens to her.”
That’s the thing. She DOESNT. Not immediately. Not even after her first or second ‘stop’ She doesnt stop until Dabbler starts explaining in DETAIL, instead of just telling her to stop, or telling he it’s fine.
“So do a lot of aliens. They can even semi-freely visit whenever they so choose. And have been doing so for quite a while.”
A miniscule amount actually, strictly done via the Council. You can see that Earth has become a lot MORE in the galactic eye with Ray Cosmic’s new business, and those tourists seem to have NO clue about Earth at that point, Ray included, since they land in the MIDDLE OF TIMES SQUARE and start wandering all over the place, no subtlety, no disguises, etc, like aliens did (like Greenie/Jeanie or Carlton/snapping spiky lizard alien) via the Council, who at least used hologuises/masquerages/camobscures/anonyflages.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-377-club-encounters-of-the-third-kind/
(panel 1 and 2)
“They easily could be. The intergalactic community happily immigrates on and off earth while consuming the media therein.”
They arent though. You are completely ignoring what Cora EXPLICITLY said during Cora’s press conference:
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-757-ets-extra-terran/
(see panel 5)
Cora: “Don’t mistake a race for a culture. Those people are human, but they’re NOT Terrans.”
“Fair enough. But it’s hardly lethal.”
I’m not sure how to explain more clearly that….
Crushiing or starting to crush a person’s SKULL…. is. Lethal. Damage.
Think of it like DnD. There’s non-lethal damage and lethal damage. If you’re doing lethal damage, it does not mean that they die in one dice-roll. It means you’re doing something which WILL DEIFNITELY result in death if continued.
“But how is that relevant to my point?”
It’s relevant because it shows that Maxima has a pattern of reckless behavior, which mainly is avoided when she’s under direct orders. When she is doing things by her own volition, she seems to choose to be more violent, more aggressive, and more reckless.
She even was about to with Death Toll. Which would likely have NOT worked out well. She was reckless with the Super Mannekiller as well, being reckless by arrogantly assuming that even if it could copy her powers, it could not copy ‘her magnitude’ – despite having NO REASON TO THINK THAT other than hubris.
I’m showing she’s flaws and reckless. You’re arguing she is not. The series of behavior of recklessness proves my point and invalidates yours.
“Yes, they do. Cora and Dabbler tell us as much.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-461-clandestilen/
You are flat out wrong here.”
Actually your link literally proves I’m right, not wrong.
The Falcon Head Alien’s actions are literally part of the reason the Council had to make sure aliens were disguised. Because otherwise they wind up creating religions among humans and are mistaken as gods or angels (like the Alari, we find later on).
“It’s merely injury if they stop before it kills.”
So are you actually arguing that shooting someone (not invulerable) with a gun in the chest is NOT a lethal attack if it doesn’t kill them? Because that is NOT how the law works. If you’re shooting at someone, it’s a lethal attack. If you come at someone with a sword, it’s a lethal attack even if they only get injured. Sciona survived a BEHEADING…. but it was a lethal attack against her.
Crushing. Someone’s. Skull. Until. It. Starts. To. Crack. Is. Attempting. A. Lethal. Attack.
I’m not sure how to say that more plainly, or how you do not think this makes you look like you’re bending over backwards to defend Maxima doing something undeniably wrong and excessively violent (as an attempted LETHAL attack), based on her not liking a word being said.
“No, I made that point in response to you saying that Max is making humans/earth look violent because of her actions.”
It’s literally on the Galactic News, and Tom just confirmed it a second time a couple of strips ago.
“Which is just plain not true because, as I’ve said before and you’ve yet to disprove:”
Then you need to re-read my posts because I’ve thoroughly disproven it several times now, complete with links.
>A miniscule amount actually, strictly done via the Council.
You don’t know that.
There is no mention of even council ”
approval needed for an alien to visit or stay on Earth.
Listen, this argument is going to be fantastically more boring if I have to analyze and critique every completely unfounded thing you say just because you think it strengths your point.
>They arent though. You are completely ignoring what Cora EXPLICITLY said during Cora’s press conference:
Like this, where Cora doesn’t even comment on how many aliens immigrate to earth. Only that millions of humans are in space due to aliens uplifting a few during the pre industrial era.
>It’s literally on the Galactic News
What’s mentioned on the Galactic news had nothing to do with Max exclusively.
>The Falcon Head Alien’s actions are literally part of the reason the Council had to make sure aliens were disguised.
Veil auto takes care of that. Literally the point of the whole system.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-456-supernatural-police-brutality/
>Crushing. Someone’s. Skull. Until. It. Starts. To. Crack. Is. Attempting. A. Lethal. Attack.
I suppose, fair enough. Does this mean you’ll give up the “Sciona wasn’t really trying to kill them” argument in the other comment chain?
“You don’t know that.”
I do know that, based on Cora’s description of how much Earth mattered to the rest of the universe. That ‘Earth had nothing the rest of the universe wanted or cared about.’ Basically, we’re a backwater place for anonymous sex tourism. Basically somewhere that people might visit, but not MANY people visit it because there’s not much interesting here for most aliens. Much like going to Nepal or Tibet or something.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-754-and-your-race-smells-of-elderberries/
That is…. before it was realized that Earth can take down a Fel Supercarrier with a handful of people – or even with just one person. And before the realization that someone from Earth seems to have the ability to make Aetherium Causeways.
Btw, Dabbler mentioned something about this back at Club Oontz on the roof as well. Most aliens don’t bother travelling to pre-FTL worlds for vacation. The galactic travel agencies don’t go to anywhere except post-FTL civilizations. That necessarily suggests that a comparatively very small number of aliens go to Earth for vacation.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-379-dont-forget-the-alien-sex-tourism/
“Like this, where Cora doesn’t even comment on how many aliens immigrate to earth.”
She said that Earth really doesnt have anything the rest of the universe wants or cares about.
Dabbler also said this when it comes to alien tourism, because none of the alien travel agencies bother to send aliens to Earth for vacation, because Earth is not a post-FTL civilization.
“Only that millions of humans are in space due to aliens uplifting a few during the pre industrial era.”
She described even the small number of humans that were taken to space as ‘a small trickle of humanity’ if I recall. She didn’t even say it was millions that were taken into space – just that there are NOW a few million humans in space. Meaning the small number of humans taken off Earth reproduced in the hundreds of years since then.
” Does this mean you’ll give up the “Sciona wasn’t really trying to kill them” argument in the other comment chain?”
Read what I said again. I made a caveat. Sciona wasn’t initiating trying to kill them. The only humans, other than Coot, who Sciona ever tried to kill were those who were hunting her down (ie, ARCHON) or members of the Council (who were also trying to hunt her down). And even then, she was mainly doing it in an attempt to slow them down from stopping her plans of getting him, not ‘just because she wanted to kill them.’
For example, if I want to leave your house, and you try stopping me from leaving, then I manage to get out and you chase after me, threatening to kill me… then actually corner me…
If I then try to kill you, who’s the actual aggressor? You’d be the aggressor, and I’d be operating in self defense.
Btw, I do think Sciona is probably evil. Once again, I am playing Devil’s Advocate here though.
The reason I think she’s evil is different than your reasoning though, I suspect. I think she MIGHT have been hunted by the Council because she was doing stuff which threatened revealing the Council to humanity. Possibly involving fighting or PLANS or even just arguments with the Council about conquering humans. Although it might just be because Alari have a VERY bad (possibly stereotyped) reputation as a-hole conquerors, even though Sciona seems to be more of a combo scientist/mage than an outright soldier.
>Much like going to Nepal or Tibet or something
Dude, it’s the information age.
I, with my regular ass human technology, can look up Tibet and know their entire cultural history in a matter of minutes.
And the aliens in Grrlverse have travel and monitoring technology far beyond that. It’d be trivially easy for them to know about Earth and it’s inhabitants.
>Meaning the small number of humans taken off Earth reproduced in the hundreds of years since then.
Definitely a possibility. I concede.
>Sciona wasn’t initiating trying to kill them.
She inadvertently did during the Council meeting and purposefully tried to when she first met Sydney.
>If I then try to kill you, who’s the actual aggressor?
The terrorists that kidnaps people and tries to kill law enforcement.
“I used peace talk as an example because I don’t want to envision Xi Jinping visiting Biden to get a booty call with Kamala. I would rather be able to sleep at night without nightmares.”
I’ve been reading through these conversations for shits and giggles, and that right there was the payout that made me laugh out loud. Thank you, thank you very much.
Glad to be of assistance. :)
“Explain yourself or leave” is totes equivalent to a murder threat everyone knows that. And ‘nothing that could be construed as a threat’? you just skipped over all of 989 and the beginning of 990 when he reiterated that he was there to conquer the earth. Real observant one we have here.
“you just skipped over all of 989 and the beginning of 990 when he reiterated that he was there to conquer the earth.”
He did not say he was there to conquer Earth. He was issuing a warning to Maxima to not treat him lightly.
Plus, like I’ve said to you now a few times, after the body slam, your argument is irrelevant since he was no longer even saying that, and we find that his ‘invasion plan’ is a powerpoint presentation. And he outright says there will be no invasion.
Maxima is not crushing his skull because of anything remotely related to an invasion threat, and you’re being very disingenuous for conflating the two things. She is crushing his skull because Dabbler said that she IS his slave, and Maxima does not like that he called Dabbler slave, despite it being a factual statement which Maxima is too impatient and hair-triggered to wait to hear first.
As someone who claims to be a lawyer, even you must recognize that Tom laying hands (claw, whatever, the body part is not the point so much as the unwelcome physical contact) on Maxima was an assault. And that his threats also contributed to that assault.
Most people, and most lawyers, would classify an assault as a crime of violence.
The term “crime of violence” means—
(a) an offense that has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another, or
(b) any other offense that is a felony and that, by its nature, involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense.
Tom has made several statements which described his intention to commit physical force against the citizens and governments of Earth in his process of securing “fealty.” And then he straight up assaulted Maxima by poking her with his claw. The claw of an 80′ demon, so not even in the same ballpark as being poked by a human finger. More like being poked with a redwood tree, with all the danger that mass implies to whomever is on the receiving end of that poke.
Are you really certain that you want to claim, as a lawyer or not, that Maxima is the only person who has committed a crime of violence since the arrival of Thothamoth?
Did you graduate at the bottom of your class? The statements you continue to make don’t appear to have much legal grounding, so I think it’s more than fair to ask.
You also seem to conveniently ignore many facts in your relentless pursuit of your flawed thesis: “Tom didn’t threaten to bring an army to Earth.” Um, his henchmen said “So are we invading?” indicating that this was indeed Tom’s plan, and that said henchman was confused to find that Tom’s invasion plan had changed into a booty call within the time span of a few brief minutes. You can equivocate over what “we still going forward with this impromptu invaaaa” actually meant, but the rational people amongst us aren’t as confused as you appear to be.
I thought lawyers were supposed to be good at presenting a believable case? I guess only good lawyers have that ability. And a lot of non-lawyers. Just not you for some odd reason. I recall someone delivering unto you an epic burn just a few comics ago, something like “I guess you’re more convincing in person.” I wish I remembered their name to give them the credit they deserve for recognizing your failure to demonstrate any of the typical logic and debate skills a lawyer is expected to posses. I certainly hope you’re more convincing in person, otherwise you might starve to death.
“As someone who claims to be a lawyer,”
I’ve literally shown you pictures of my law degree and Second Department Bar certification hanging in my office. You’ve. Seen. Them. The ‘you’re not a real lawyer are you hur hur’ joke is played out.
“even you must recognize that Tom laying hands (claw, whatever, the body part is not the point so much as the unwelcome physical contact) on Maxima was an assault.”
Actually it’s battery, not assault. Unwelcome touching. It wasn’t violent though.
Moot point though, since I’m not arguing about the body slam being unwarranted. I’m arguing that the skull crushing is unwarranted. And I’m pointing out the only person who’s been using physical violence between the two of them has been Maxima. Prove me wrong. Show where he’s done anything physically violent.
“Most people, and most lawyers, would classify an assault as a crime of violence.”
Actually no. Most lawyers would not. Laypeople like you would, because they don’t know the law. Go to law school, then get back to me after first year Crim Law.
Criminal assault does not require any violence. It requires reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact. The poke would be considered offensive contact, even if not violent, which it was not.
“The term “crime of violence” means—”
I’m aware of what is stated in 18 USC 16. Even by that definition, nothing Tom did is ‘crime of violence.’ Read the full sentences. There has to be an actual crime happening as well.
“Are you really certain that you want to claim, as a lawyer or not, that Maxima is the only person who has committed a crime of violence since the arrival of Thothamoth?”
1) Again, you’ve already seen my diplomas and certifications hanging in my office. The only thing I blocked out on it was my name because you seem a little unhinged and I’d rather not have someone like you harassing me in real life. :) If you want I can take more pictures though, maybe with my computer turned around on the desk with grrlpower on the screen?
2) Yes, I’m saying Maxima is the only one who has been violent. Thothogoth has not been violent. The poke was a crime in the most technical sense, but not a violent crime. Just as if you came to my office to call me names and poked me once, it would be a crime, but not a violent crime. Maxima, on the other hand, has done ACTUALLY violent acts. The body slam was violent, although not a crime since she was poked and she responded with what she COULD argue was adequate force. The skull-crushing, however, is not only EXTREMELY violent, it’s also a crime of violence, since it’s in response to him saying a word, to another person, not directed at her, and that other person did not seem to mind it.
“Did you graduate at the bottom of your class?”
Top 10% actually. I also did very well on several state bar exams and have federal sponsorship.
“The statements you continue to make don’t appear to have much legal grounding,”
Only because you seem to know almost nothing about the law. Don’t mean that as an insult. You literally just say things that are very ignorant of the law, despite my not only telling you the law, but usually showing you the statutes that show the legal definitions, and you tend to just use insults instead.
“You also seem to conveniently ignore many facts in your relentless pursuit of your flawed thesis:”
On the contrary, I actually stick to the facts in a rather pedantic and exacting manner. :)
” “Tom didn’t threaten to bring an army to Earth.” Um, his henchmen said “So are we invading?””
He was asking if they were, and Tom said they were not. Therefore, he was not invading. Nothing ignored there.
” indicating that this was indeed Tom’s plan, and that said henchman was confused to find that Tom’s invasion plan had changed into a booty call within the time span of a few brief minutes.”
Seems like any plan that Tom’s assistant thought was going to happen was not that serious if it could be changed in a few minutes. Point remains, there was no invasion, and by that point, not even the slightest threat of a potential invasion anymore.
“You can equivocate over what “we still going forward with this impromptu invaaaa” actually meant,”
I’m not equivocating. I’m saying what it meant. He was asking if there was going to be an impromptu invasion, and stopped mid-sentence because he realized there wasn’t.
“I thought lawyers were supposed to be good at presenting a believable case?”
I’ve presented a very believable case. You’re just very ignorant of the law and you tend to rely on strawmen or insults when you can’t argue based on the facts presented.
Here are the facts I’m presenting. And read what I write VERY CAREFULLY.
1) The only person who’s been ACTUALLY VIOLENT has been Maxima. Fact.
2) The invasion never even started. Fact.
3) Thothogoth was there because he had dealings with Xuriel, not because he was wanting to invade. Fact.
4) After the bodyslam for his implied threat + non-injurious poke, he no longer even made any threats. Fact. In fact, he was very civil post-body slam. Fact.
5) Maxima had no legal cause to be crushing his skull. Fact.
6) Maxima is crushing his skull because she does not like that he called Dabbler ‘slave.’ Fact.
7) Calling someone else slave is not violence – it’s words. Fact.
8) Dabbler was not taking offense at being called slave – she even confirmed it and told Maxima that it was fine. FACT.
“I recall someone delivering unto you an epic burn just a few comics ago,”
I wouldnt call Illy ‘convincing’ or able to deliver epic burns. She just decided to call me an antisemite because she is incapable of arguing or making tangents of tangents of tangents.
“something like “I guess you’re more convincing in person.””
I sincerely don’t think you (or Illy) would do well arguing with me in person before a judge, because you’d each probably wind up in contempt of court when you start hurling insults instead of valid legal reasoning. She’d start calling the judge an antisemite for not recognizing some sort of tangent of a tangent, and you’d question if he or she was a real judge. :) And I’m not sure either of you have the capability to temper your tongues in front of an authority figure like a judge, based on what I’ve seen. You both strike me as the type of people that would get in trouble because you’re not behaving in accordance with court decorum.
No Tom was not civil before or after the bodyslam. He is a parody of the stereotypical rude, pompous, arrogant asshole powerfull demonlord so being civil is probably impossible for him. But he tries to discuss things without actual violence which is what is really important here. As a adult you sometimes need to swallow your pride and try to communicate with rude people and resist the urge to punch them. Maxima failed.
“No Tom was not civil before or after the bodyslam.”
He seemed quite civil after the bodyslam. Plus maybe this IS being civil for an Archlord Fiend.
He went from ‘I have an army, do not get too big on your power blah blah blah’ to talking about how much he loves Dabbler and how Sydney is being hurtful to his feelings, and how Earth is in danger because of being in the Xevoarchy’s crosshairs and he’d really like them to see the powerpoint presentation on how it would not be subjugation or anything icky like that.
“He is a parody of the stereotypical rude, pompous, arrogant asshole powerfull demonlord so being civil is probably impossible for him.”
This is true about the stereotype, but Dabbler was keeping him from being uncivil by reminding him when he was getting out of line or being unfair to Sydney’s questions.
“But he tries to discuss things without actual violence which is what is really important here.”
Correct.
“As a adult you sometimes need to swallow your pride and try to communicate with rude people and resist the urge to punch them. Maxima failed.”
Also correct.
My point is that Tom is rude and provocative as he should be because it’s funny. That’s not very civil in my opinion.
It’s pretty civil for a fiend. Also pretty civil compared to Maxima. :) Heck, after the body slam, one could argue that he was pretty civil compared to Sydney even. :)
We don’t know enough about Toms culture to know of he is rude by fiend standards. But Dabbler probably know him and his culture well enough and she isn’t offended by him so you may be right. In any case he is a reasonable fiend, rude or not.
Perhaps Tom is a bit like Deus. Someone who acts like a villain but is pragmatic and reasonable. It could be fun if they met. There would be a lot of villainous monologes and evil laughs.
You are picking the nits here, and also the cherries.
A summarised timeline of relevant comments is (I think I have it all here)
Tom arrives telling he has dealings with Dabbler
Max ask him for his passport
Tom then, after a little back and forth about how humanity is getting too uppity, says that he has an army poised to throw down earth’s corrupt regimes and makes a direct threat to Maxima, including physical contact (aka conducts assault and battery on a law enforcement officer)
Max proceeds to deck him in a millisecond
Max, Sydney and Tom argue a bit, Dabbler gets involved and the two have their little make-out session because apparently Dabbler feels she owes Tom that.
As that is going on Devon shows up to ask about if they can go on with the invaaaaay. He after a little wait aks Tom if this was a booty call after all and not an invasion because he had to scramble everyone to be ready. Later on that page, when Tom got his speedos back on, Devon again mentions a planned invasion, Maxima calls out: nobody is invading and he then tells her that she should look at his powerpoint (to understand the benefits of being subjugated to Tom)
…
I do not see how Maxima can possibly misunderstand Tom’s intentions here.
He explicitely tells her before Devon even shows up that he has an army ready to take over control of the planet and that he is willing to kill Maxima then and there if she tries to stop him, or annoys him (he says her survival is only on his whim while he pokes her in the chest)
Technically Tom did not use the word invasion (Devon did, twice and once partially. Neither denied when Maxima brought it up, just insisted on using a different word for the same process and Maxima called out ‘how is that not an invasion and subjugation?)
At this point Maxima has every reason to treat Tom as the commander of a hostile force that is one step through a portal way from military action against the USA. If this were serious military science fiction and not sexy comedy, Maxima would only be restrained at this point by the need to inform her CO of the situation so as not to escalate hostilities when those higher up the totem pole might want to try for a diplomatic solution instead. But as soon as Tom starts bringing troops through then Max should start blasting.
Given the nature of this comic it thankfully will not come to that. It would be funny if Sydney could use her causeway to redirect the portal to whatever scrambled location was the last destination before she unlocked the ability again, stranding Tom and Devon on earth.
Btw, before declaring what is and is not part of the Rule of Land Warfare…..
https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/law-of-land-warfare_7.pdf
Here :) Some reading. Check Chapter 3 in particular, starting on page 31.
Big mistake in your rather lengthy pontification:
a) What makes you think extraterrestrial beings posessing vastly superior technology and knowledge care one iota about the legal technicalities of warfare touted by one splinter tribe of a rather argumentative primitive planet when they do decide to claim it as their turf?
Especially the ones who have a standard alter-to-specifics presentation ready to roll?
b) See a)
“Big mistake in your rather lengthy pontification:”
I doubt it but lets hear your reasoning?
“a) What makes you think extraterrestrial beings posessing vastly superior technology and knowledge care one iota about the legal technicalities of warfare touted by one splinter tribe of a rather argumentative primitive planet when they do decide to claim it as their turf?”
Because the Xevoarchy seems to have something analogous to the Prime Directive. And since Tom seems to want people to AGREE to be under his leadership, it helps if you know something about the planet’s political structure. Which he seems to based on what he said earlier about how the governments are not unified.
Also, in case you forgot, Extraterrestrials and demons are both part of the Council, which has regular dealings with the US Government.
“b) See a)”
See above.
The Xevoarchy, despite their alluded power, and as far as explained in the comic in several places, only seems to act when the *galactic* status quo is in danger.
It definitely didn’t do anything about the clearly genocidal attack on the Alari homeworld, seems to be unable to do anything about the Fel, and it certainly doesn’t interfere with empire-building as evidenced by remarks of both Cora and Dabbler.
In fact, “accidentally opening up a portal that unleashes a demonic horde” would be exactly one of those 1001 things that may kill off a civilisation that the Xevoarchy specifically does not interfere with, since it’s obviously self-inflicted.
The demons and extraterrestrials on the Council are those with vested interests in our planet, and very much do not want to rock the boat. agreed. However… I very much doubt that the demons on the Council speak for *all* demonkind.
They may be one of the “stakeholders” Tom wants/needs to “convince”, but their role as Safekeepers of Secrets is pretty much washed out after the Big Reveal. Tom can safely ignore them, as with the Xevoarchy, because of the “self-inflicted” principle, while even being able to claim failure on the Council’s part
because one of their jobs is/was preventing someone being so stupid as opening a Portal to the Gates of Hell…
As for his insistence on Red Tape.. He is a Fiend, “identifying” as a Devil. Quite neurotically so..
Devils don’t do anything without a Contract. Period. It’s one of their defining features. Famously so.
Tom MUST conform to the stereotype, or he will be violating his much-valued identity. He can’t help himself.
As a Devil, he can only really start conquering unless someone…*anyone* asks him to. Preferably without goign over the Fine Print of the Contract with a fine comb…
What stops him from just razing the place isn’t some human lawyerese that is easily ignored under the guise of “necessity”and “expediency” ( as all military protocols..) , but his neurotic attachment to his “Identity”.
“The Xevoarchy, despite their alluded power, and as far as explained in the comic in several places, only seems to act when the *galactic* status quo is in danger.”
I believe I’ve made a lengthy argument about this in the past but I’ll do it again here.
Having a pre-FTL planet, which is still largely at war with ITSELF, highly aggressive to outsiders as well, with access to Aetherium Causeways despite nothing in their history suggesting they should have that advanced a technology through natural technological evolution (except for a single paragon of virtue who seems to have developed technology on his own, possible via some help from the Alari), members who can take down a Fel Supercarrier with only a handful of soldiers, and a soldier who is capable of killing, with ease most likely, a Fiend Archlord with her bare hands and firing plasma blasts capable of getting through almost any known shielding in the galaxy….. yeah I’d say that was ‘disruptive of the galactic status quo.’
“and it certainly doesn’t interfere with empire-building as evidenced by remarks of both Cora and Dabbler.”
They also implied that it clearly depends on how far they go. There are certain levels at which they WILL get involved, and according to Thothogoth,
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-989-invasion-schminvasion/ (panels #1 and #3)
and the Galactic News,
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-981-victory-pose/ (panel #5)
Earth is already in the crosshairs, in case you forgot. Plus even the Council is wary of supers, and the Council also has a representative who seems to have ties to the Xevoarchy or the Galactic News (read what it says in Panel #5).
“It definitely didn’t do anything about the clearly genocidal attack on the Alari homeworld,”
The Alari were a post-FTL society, not a pre-FTL society, and likely were not enough of a threat to merit attacking it. Although Dabbler did think, at first, that might have been the reason for Alar’s destruction. Which means it’s probably close to the threat level needed for the Xevoarchy to take action. And Earth has already shown itself to be MUCH more of a threat.
“In fact, “accidentally opening up a portal that unleashes a demonic horde” would be exactly one of those 1001 things that may kill off a civilisation that the Xevoarchy specifically does not interfere with, since it’s obviously self-inflicted.”
Unless that planet in question seems capable of having a single soldier annihilate the head of that army with one hand with ease.
“However… I very much doubt that the demons on the Council speak for *all* demonkind.”
Not sure where you’re going with this to be honest.
“They may be one of the “stakeholders” Tom wants/needs to “convince”, but their role as Safekeepers of Secrets is pretty much washed out after the Big Reveal. Tom can safely ignore them, as with the Xevoarchy, because of the “self-inflicted” principle, while even being able to claim failure on the Council’s part”
I have no idea what you’re arguing here either. Especially in reference to anything I wrote.
“As for his insistence on Red Tape.. He is a Fiend, “identifying” as a Devil. Quite neurotically so..”
No, he doesnt identify as a devil. Or a demon. He identifies as a Fiend. Since he’s a Fiend. And if anything, he might identify also as a demon AND a devil, or superior to both, as the mood suits him, according to Dabbler. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information now since just one strip ago shows the opposite of what you’re saying.
“Devils don’t do anything without a Contract. Period. It’s one of their defining features. Famously so.”
1) He’s not a Devil, he’s a Fiend.
2) He does have a Pact with Dabbler. I’m a lawyer. I make contracts with a lot of people as well, and I’m pretty sure at least 80% of them are not demons or devils or fiends. Okay maybe 75%. Definitely not less than 60%.
3) Even if he was a Devil, which he is not, Devils DO things without contracts as well. They just make contracts when they want to bind someone to do something, although it binds them to do something as well first. So you’re incorrect there.
“Tom MUST conform to the stereotype,”
Why would he have to conform to a stereotype of something that he isn’t, based on rules that are not what you’re describing as rules. You’re basically just making up headcanon right now that doesnt actually exist as far as we know in the Grrlpower universe.
“or he will be violating his much-valued identity.”
He identifies as a Fiend. He literally identified as a Fiend in the last strip AND in this strip. And he has not EVER identified as a Devil, so I don’t know where you got that from.
“As a Devil, he can only really start conquering unless someone…*anyone* asks him to.”
1) Again, he’s not a Devil, he’s a Fiend.
2) Where are you getting these rules for Devils from?
“What stops him from just razing the place isn’t some human lawyerese that is easily ignored under the guise of “necessity”and “expediency” ( as all military protocols..) , but his neurotic attachment to his “Identity”.”
1) Again, he is not a Devil, nor has he identified as a Devil. He has identified as a Fiend. And he literally is a Fiend – the offspring of a Devil and a Demon, according to Dabbler in the previous strip.
2) What stops him from razing the place is that Maxima seems capable of killing him with one hand if he says a word she doesnt like.
3) Necessity and Expediency don’t prevent contracts from needing to be fulfilled actually. Not sure where you got that either. Only stuff like Ambiguity (which doesnt always STOP the contract, just removes the ambiguous parts), Unconscionability, Illegality, Voidability, Public Policy (sometimes), Mutual Agreement, and Breach (which tends to require a penalty that must occur as a result). I’m not sure that, with a magical contract, breach is possible. Since magic isnt real in RL, but is in the Grrlpower universe.
Your argument that Earth is already in the crosshairs of the Xevoarchy seems the biggestt hing to me. Imagine what we must look like to them: warlike, divided, primitive; yet able to destroy a Fel invasion mere moments after it begins; somehow able to use aetheron portals (which even far more advanced species can’t do); having individuals who can beat armies; welcoming the Alari, a notoriously aggressive species – and imagine when they find out Deus has somehow made a portal to The Fracture and imported all kind of proscribed tech! I think the Xevoarchy will feel they have to intervene, before Earth becomes a serious threat!
You are very intelligent and cool and I think we should be best friends forever.
—-
*Gets into Deus Cheering Mode*
That being said, Deus seems like the only one that actually bothers covering his tracks or makes it look like he created the technology through Earth-based scientific progress (even when he hasnt). He’s also the only one who bothers to hide just how much tech he has, and covers it up with any opportunity he gets, like the Alari refugee ship in Galytin. If anyone can HIDE stuff from the Xevoarchy finding out it’s not purely human tech, it would be Deus.
BTW, I like how Deus seemed to already be familiar with what the Fracture was somehow. He even knew where to trade for tech, what tech he wanted, and what the aliens on the Fracture would want to trade FOR that tech. I still think it’s because he’s either a time traveler, or more likely that he’s communicated with himself from the future, sort of like David Xanatos did in Disney’s Gargoyles. But that’s my personal pet theory. His welcoming of the Alari will depend on Deus’s ability to generate positive P.R. that the Xevoarchy would see.
Now that you mention it – Deus knows a lot of things most people don’t. As you say, he knew about the Fracture, to the point he knew exactly where to open his ‘stargate’ to. He already knew about the Alari well before meeting Sciona (‘I always wanted to bed an Alari’). He knew about the Coucil’s top secret vault, how get there and what kind of security to expect. He seems to know a LOT of things he’s not supposed to know. Personally, I think he would be exactly the kind of opponent who’s the greatest danger to Max because he’s extremely good at strategy and tactics. D. seems to be able to think circles around Maxima. (That’s where Max and Superman differ IMHO: Supes is always portryed as being extremely smart; Max so far hasn’t been. Also, Superman has great self control in contrast to Maxi’s hair-trigger temper.)
Once again, I would like to say that you are very cool and we should do lunch. Also you are very intelligent and charismatic. We should have matching lanyards and I agree entirely with everything you said.
Deus truly is a marvel, all praise Deus, amen.
—-
“Supes is always portryed as being extremely smart; Max so far hasn’t been. Also, Superman has great self control in contrast to Maxi’s hair-trigger temper.”
If any comparison with Superman is appropriate, it would be Injustice Superman, who is arrogant, having very little self control, also having a hair trigger temper as there’s no one to actually counter him, just people who are sycophants or people who are too scared to try to counter him without dying (except for Batman and Plastic Man). Maxima seems like she’s going down that road, although I’m hoping Sydney is an example of someone who would moderate her. But she’s busy taking pictures of Maxima bullying the Fiend Arch-Lord right now instead, so maybe it’ll fall to the succubus sex demon to provide a moderating voice instead.
“He just has an annoying knack for knowing stuff he shouldn’t.”
Torabi or anyone else, I need to know how to do that with the links being put into sentences again please.
<a href=”link goes here”>how it shows up goes here</a>
crosses fingers and hopes all that doesn’t get mangled
Oh good, it survived. As complicated as it may look, that’s how it works. It was even more complicated to get it to show up without being turned into a link.
Thanks. I need to put that somewhere so I don’t forget it this time.
“As for his insistence on Red Tape.. He is a Fiend, “identifying” as a Devil. Quite neurotically so..”
He is very definitely NOT a devil. See: https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-983-business-or-pleasure/
Dabbler: Whoaaa there, Tom. Neither one of us are [sic] devils […]
Tom: [does not disagree]
C). Since we’ve determined that Tom is NOT a “demon”, any assumptions regarding standing agreements between the US Government and demons or The Council are probably irrelevant.
“C). Since we’ve determined that Tom is NOT a “demon”, any assumptions regarding standing agreements between the US Government and demons or The Council are probably irrelevant.”
When I said demons, replace ‘Demons’ with ‘Infernals and Celestials’ Since both are part of the Council, and it’s a more expansive category than just saying Demons. Infernals includes Devils, Demons, and Fiends. It doesnt say ‘Succubi’ either, but they’re also part of the Council. They’re a subsect of Demons. Angels are also part of the council btw, as are Valkyries apparently from what we’ve seen. Plus the other parts of the Council come under ‘Ex Miscellanea’
“rather lengthy pontification”
Oh, come on. This is an internet discussion feature.
Lengthy responses, especially when they are on-point, educated and non-nasty, are a good thing.
You don’t have to LIKE them or AGREE with them but it actually shows that someone took you seriously – they just know more or know differently than you.
Or maybe it’s just a little nerdy. The line between expert and nerd is blurry.
“The line between expert and nerd is blurry.”
I think I can be an expert AND a nerd. :)
you can also be blurry, if you feel like it
;P
Ah, to get blurry with an expert nerd would be very heaven!
the line between genius and insanity is also blurry
line? what line? it’s all a matter of marketing.
That actually doesn’t matter.
The topic is Max’s paperwork, not the political fallout resulting from her deciding to do said paperwork.
Interesting reading…
“American courts have held that the alien enemy has no rights other than those which the sovereign chooses to grant.”
That’s the closest thing I can find in that link to something covering Maxima’s actions. Maxima is the ranking officer on the scene and is exercising her judgment.
And frankly… nothing of what you said applies here. Tom showed up making explicit threats and hostile statements. If he had done the research he claims to have done, then he would know how that would have come across – so he cannot be said to be ignorant of Earthly customs and attitudes. Hell, when his assistant showed up he AND Tom made it clear that they still had every intention of overthrowing the U.S. government, one way or another. And that they had been, and still were, actively considering violence as a method of achieving that goal.
Or to put it another way: Tom showed up acting like British officers did during the height of their Empire… except he tried it with the equivalent of Shaka Zulu.
“That’s the closest thing I can find in that link to something covering Maxima’s actions. Maxima is the ranking officer on the scene and is exercising her judgment.”
She is exercising poor judgment, and is initiating violence, not responding with violence. Also, Tom has not been labelled an enemy yet by the government, so Maxima is giving herself authority that she does not possess. There is no actual danger occurring, and any potential danger had already passed.
“And frankly… nothing of what you said applies here. Tom showed up making explicit threats and hostile statements.”
1) No he was not
2) Even if you consider what he said to have been a threat, the threat was already neutralized after the bodyslam. Any potential threat was over, and he specifically said there was NOT going to be an invasion. At that point, Maxima becomes the aggressor if she performs any physical violence.
“Hell, when his assistant showed up he AND Tom made it clear that they still had every intention of overthrowing the U.S. government, one way or another. ”
You’re engaging in headcanon that isnt happening in the comic. His assistant showed up, asked if there was going to be an invasion, and was told no. Because it was actually a booty call. You don’t go to war over a booty call unless you’re Troy and Athens.
And offering to show a powerpoint presentation is not an act of war or an invasion. It’s more like ‘I’d like to make your leaders a political offer which can be mutual beneficial for both of our governments. It’s entirely your choice. Take me to your leaders please so I can show them this lovely powerpoint presentation with transcendent transitions.’
I would love to see that PowerPoint presentation. My wife says she want that shirtless bishonen demon to show it for her.
I have to admit I’m curious about it too. I’ve never seen a transcendent transition.
1: yes he most certainly is – the start of her interactions with him were her introducing herself, stating her name, rank, and status as a representative of the legal government. His response:
“My armies are poised to grant humanity a clean break from their squabbling and corrupt institutions, to start anew with lessons learned from past mistakes, and my grace alone will determine whether or not you live to see the much needed order I will bring.”
And he TOUCHED her, to boot. To put that in perspective… you know the guards at Buckingham Palace? The ones tourists love to make fun of? You can mock them and say things to them… but if you touch one of them, they will promptly beat the snot out of you and then arrest you. Because they’re military, they’re guards, and they’re carrying modern rifles because they’re SOLDIERS ASSIGNED TO GUARD DUTY. The moment he touched Maxima, after making a very explicit threat to overthrow the government she stands in service to, AND making death threats, he gave her justification to do a whole lot worse than what she’s done so far.
“You’re engaging in headcanon that isnt happening in the comic. His assistant showed up, asked if there was going to be an invasion, and was told no.”
Hahahahah no. No, you don’t get to pretend that what’s right there on the page is “headcanon” because you don’t like it. His assistant asked if the invasion WAS STILL GOING TO HAPPEN. They planned an invasion. His armies are ready for the invasion that they planned.
“the start of her interactions with him were her introducing herself, stating her name, rank, and status as a representative of the legal government.”
Her statement read more as a ‘You will do what I say or I will put you down’ sort of statement, actually.
Notice how he said ‘they are poised’ He did not say they are going to invade. He was saying it as a warning.
It didn’t work with Max. Plus he poked her which resulted in the body slam. I’m thinking MAINLY because of the poke. If he hadn’t poked her, they would have more likely traded puffery back and forth instead.
After the body slam, though, he was very civil. And nothing that could even be argued as being a threat at that point.
“to put that in perspective… you know the guards at Buckingham Palace? The ones tourists love to make fun of? You can mock them and say things to them… but if you touch one of them, they will promptly beat the snot out of you and then arrest you.”
Yes that’s how I see it also. But when you’re saying stuff to them, they are not going to take it as a credible threat until you do something additional. Like poking.
“The moment he touched Maxima, after making a very explicit threat to overthrow the government”
No, the moment he touched Maxima, he was getting in her personal space. She doesnt like that. At least when she’s on the receiving end. It did not make the ‘armies are poised’ puffery more threatening though.
“he gave her justification to do a whole lot worse than what she’s done so far.”
You’re missing the point, like a few people I’ve argued with have missed the point.
Let us assume that the body slam was warranted. Because I can see that being a valid argument.
The skull crushing is NOT warranted. At all. There is no justification for it. Any threat that you CAN argue, pre-body slam, does not exist post-body slam. After the body slam, all of his arguments are based on how the Earth is in the crosshairs of the Xevoarchy and they would benefit from his leadership or being part of his group, because his group supposedly has enough pull with the Xevoarchy to offer Earth a ‘clean slate.’ And the true extent of his ‘invasion’ is made clear in that it’s a powerpoint presentation where they would be needing to voluntarily join him as interested stakeholders in Earth’s future in the greater galaxy, in a way that will not cause interstellar wars with Earth on one side and the Xevoarchy on the other side.
” No, you don’t get to pretend that what’s right there on the page is “headcanon” because you don’t like it. His assistant asked if the invasion WAS STILL GOING TO HAPPEN.”
And Tom said no. Therefore, the invasion was not going to happen. And there was NOT going to be any subjugation. All that happened before the skull crushing but after the body slam. It completely changes the interaction. Why do you keep ignoring THAT part?
“Her statement read more as a ‘You will do what I say or I will put you down’ sort of statement, actually.”
If that’s how you choose to see it, that’s on you. That being said, any such implied threat would be a perfectly appropriate response given to a potential threat to her country, acting on domestic soil.
“No, the moment he touched Maxima, he was getting in her personal space. She doesnt like that.”
My response: HAHAHAHAH! Because seriously… that’s such a fucking stupid thing to say. Try poking a cop in the chest and seeing what happens. Then try poking a combat veteran, who is also an officer in front of her subordinates, in the middle of a potential “hot zone” that YOU turned potentially hot. I’ve been being as polite as I can be, but that really sent you straight into “Pander doesn’t like Maxima and will strain credulity, ignore facts, and dismiss common sense to make her the bad guy, no matter how EXTREMELY justified she happens to be.”
The ONLY thing she did that is not 100% “good job Maxima, everything you’re doing is great, expect another commendation for handling this so well” would be the head crushing… and that’s more of a “well, you did such a great job, and he said something so STUPID… we’re going to pretend it didn’t happen. While giving you another commendation for shutting down a planned demonic invasion cold.”
“Try poking a cop in the chest and seeing what happens”
Cops don’t like it when you get in their personal space as well. Especially if you poke them.
PS – if you poke a cop and he bashes your head in with his nightstick, he’s used disproportionate levels of violence. Watch a protest some time. Most of the riot cops do NOT respond with violence when they have protestors yelling in their faces or pushing at them. They usually just push back or hold the line of defense.
“Then try poking a combat veteran, who is also an officer in front of her subordinates, in the middle of a potential “hot zone” that YOU turned potentially hot.”
1) Combat veterans don’t like you getting in their personal space either. Especially when you poke them
2) This was not a hot zone yet.
3) Again, I don’t know why several people do not realize this, but my problem is with the SKULL CRUSHING, not the body slam. My pointing out the body slam is to just emphasize that the only person who HAS been violent has been Maxima, not Tom.
“I’ve been being as polite as I can be, but that really sent you straight into “Pander doesn’t like Maxima and will strain credulity, ignore facts, and dismiss common sense to make her the bad guy, no matter how EXTREMELY justified she happens to be.””
I… actually do like Maxima. I’ve mentioned this many times, including to Oberon, who tends to give me a lot of insults about it. But she does stupid, recklessly violent things when she does not have to. I consider this a flaw in her character that actively affects the story. This is, in part, a good thing because it’s an argument that she is not a Mary Sue. But it’s still a flaw. By arguing that it’s not, you’re strengthening the idea that she IS a Mary Sue.
“dismiss common sense to make her the bad guy, no matter how EXTREMELY justified she happens to be.””
There is no circumstance under which calling someone a name is grounds to crush their skull. That DOES make her bad, or at least not remotely morally in the right. It’s sort of like the argument that Illy was making to me about ‘punching Richard Spencer because he’s a piece of crap racist and antisemite.’ I wouldnt punch him, even if I wanted to, just because he says words that I don’t like. It’s morally wrong unless there’s an imminent threat of violence that I’m trying to prevent.
Which is why I don’t argue very strenuously about the bodyslam. Because there ARE arguments for that. But I do argue about the skull crushing. Because there’s NO good arguments for that. The only reason I bring up the bodyslam at all has been, and I’ve spelled this out, that it shows that Maxima has a habit of using disproportionate levels of violence – not that violence is not warranted at all in all cases.
“The ONLY thing she did that is not 100% “good job Maxima, everything you’re doing is great, expect another commendation for handling this so well” would be the head crushing”
No, that’s a 100% ‘you did a bad thing Maxima, go to the therapist and get a handle on your anger before you cause a war where simple talking or questions would make it a non-issue.’
“he said something so STUPID…”
He said something factually accurate, to someone else, who did not seem to mind, and then alerted Maxima that he was, in fact, 100% correct. Then Maxima starts crushing his skull.
“we’re going to pretend it didn’t happen.”
No offense, but it sounds sort of like you’re arguing in favor of a ‘blue wall of silence.’
Commissioner: “Yes, Officer Rageaholic. We see that you did bust everyone involved in that drug sale. Good job! You did, however, shatter that man’s skull with your nightstick when he called you a pig, after the situation was over and he was sitting in the squad car, but you’re a cop and you did get a good collar with that drug bust so … we’ll just keep that little…. police violence abuse between the two of us since it wasn’t caught on video tape. wink wink nudge nudge, cops gotta stick together amirite? Just make sure it doesnt happen again in front of witnesses with cameras.’
No, I am not arguing in favor of a “blue shield of silence.” In fact, I think cops need to be held more accountable, and to be deprived of their excuse of “it’s a tough job, we’re heroes, we protect and serve.” (Especially since all three of those claims are… questionable, at best) They need to be taught to behave like… Maxima’s team.
In response to your statements about hot zones… this was a training area – the equivalent of a mortar range (on account of the sheer amount of destructive power being unleashed). The training area was invaded by a potentially hostile intruder who was VERY provocative with his words. He is VERY lucky that Maxima has not yet seriously harmed him – and Maxima has shown herself to be quite capable of self control and restraint, given that she could have done far worse but chose not to.
Frankly, you’re nitpicking over the details of Maxima’s actions in STOPPING A DEMONIC INVASION. Which this totally was – as you acknowledged, the assistant pouted because the invasion was cancelled. Meaning IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
Again: hot zone. Lots of adrenalin and stressors. And in front of her subordinates, whose loyalty she commands because she is loyal to them. Not condoning the head crushing… but it’s certainly understandable, especially given that disabling him without killing him was already doing more than she had to, all things considered.
“No, I am not arguing in favor of a “blue shield of silence.” In fact, I think cops need to be held more accountable, and to be deprived of their excuse of “it’s a tough job, we’re heroes, we protect and serve.” (Especially since all three of those claims are… questionable, at best) They need to be taught to behave like… Maxima’s team.”
You can understand why I’d think that’s what you’re saying though, when you said ‘we’re going to pretend it didn’t happen.’ Right?
“Frankly, you’re nitpicking over the details of Maxima’s actions in STOPPING A DEMONIC INVASION.”
No, you’re ignoring that there is a difference between ‘before bodyslam’ Tom’s actions and ‘after bodyslam’ Tom’s actions. You’re ignoring what, in law, we call ‘proximate cause’ and ‘intervening acts.’
“Which this totally was – as you acknowledged, the assistant pouted because the invasion was cancelled. Meaning IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.”
No, it literally was not. Because the assistant was asking IF it was going to happen. Which means whether or not it was going to happen was based on other things needing to occur first. And as soon as Tom said that there would NOT be an invasion, there was not any threat. And therefore I have no idea why you keep using the threat of invasion as an excuse to crush Tom’s skull, since THE THREAT NO LONGER EXISTED.
Also, the assistant seemed more pouty that no one wanted to watch the powerpoint presentation that he worked really hard on. Powerpoint presentations are not threats worthy of skull crushing, btw.
“Again: hot zone.”
There was NO HOT ZONE after the bodyslam and booty call. WHERE are you getting a hot zone from post-bodyslam? TALKING is NOT a HOT ZONE. There was no fighting happening anymore. At all. Tom had not made a single aggressive move post bodyslam. Tom had not made a single aggresive threat post bodyslam. Tom had, in fact, made the exact opposite. Saying that there was not going to be an invasion. Saying that he was not speaking of subjugation at all. Answering Sydney’s insulting and irrelevant questions in a Q and A that had nothing to do whatsoever with invasions or threats at all.
“Not condoning the head crushing… ”
You’re sort of seeming to condone head crushing by trying to continually tie it to pre-bodyslam stuff though, when there is a very substantial series of intervening acts that destroy proximate cause between the threat and the skull crushing.
“but it’s certainly understandable,”
The only understandable part of Maxima’s action of skull crushing is that she has a violent and explosive temper that is not suitable to someone of her rank, where calm and rational talking makes more sense.
“especially given that disabling him without killing him was already doing more than she had to, all things considered.”
I’m trying to figure why you think that crushing his skull is ‘disabling without killing’ when it’s clearly an attempt to kill’ Just grabbing his face would be ‘disabling’ – but disabling from WHAT? He was not doing anything aggressive at that point.
We’ve seen from the early days Max has big, pushable buttons. A villain with good intel could lure her into a trap quite easily.
And this makes Maxi interesting!
It’s funny how this comment is directly below another one complaining about how Max is boring because she has no weaknesses.
Different people have different opinions. :)
There should be a plot arc where the conflict is ENTIRELY due to Max being manipulated by someone. Address the issue directly rather than dancing around it.
Is Sydney takin photos?
ps: oh, that is looking like a soon to be face remodeling
It took me a minute to understand. If i got it right, this is Sydney doing background lighting so that Max gets the ominous ‘Dark shadow over face’ look that really sells the “You done Fucked up” vibe to how angry she is. and if i got it right, GOLD STAR!
Syd’s face in p5 and p6 lol.
This is gonna be good. Max is about to learn about sub/dom relationships. I guess collaring will also get brought up too.
Get the good popcorn ready for this one!
Oh good, someone else realised it, too. Heh. But hoo boy – Xuriel, a slave? Deeeeeeeeefinitely more on the “brat” end of the scale there XD
What I find more interesting is that the putative Dom-Tom seems to be using a Safeword in the last panel that Dabbsie recognises… That grin almost can’t be wider…
Oh lordy, I think you’re right. Skeletal wings, horns, bony plates and exposed teeth? Probably settled on some ground rules after the first time, when Dabbler kicked a hole in his chest.
Granted, I’m just speculating on that last part, but really, would any of us be surprised if it was true?
Man, I can’t help but think of the short story about the Baby Eating Aliens.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/n5TqCuizyJDfAPjkr/the-baby-eating-aliens-1-8
Just the first (very roughly) translated message from the newly discovered alien race:
THIS VESSEL IS THE OPTIMISM OF THE CENTER OF THE VESSEL PERSON
YOU HAVE NOT KICKED US
THEREFORE YOU EAT BABIES
WHAT IS OURS IS YOURS, WHAT IS YOURS IS OURS
I recall a fairly entertaining SF novel that involved an alien refugee. He had skin problems, they were being treated by human doctors. But there was quite a fuss when he found out he was being treated with “oil of babies”.
I don’t recall if that translation error ever did get resolved.
Glad to see our minds both went to the same place!
How is Toms name said?
Tho Tho Goth?
Thot Ho Goth?
Thot Hog Oth?
Thoth O Goth?
Thot O Goth (silent H)?
I’m like 90% sure it’s canonically wrong but in my head it’s pronounced like someone burned their tongue and then said “the shoggoth”
I am hearing something like Yogsothoth only with th placements like hissing it out.
Tom’th parenth both have lithpth, tho Tom thinkth hith name ith not Ssossogoss.
I like this pronunciation best. :D
Thoth O’Goth? As in, Thoth of the Goth?
Thoth O’goth. as in the Celtic language.
I like this pronunciation second best, after gorblimey’s.
Thoth O’Goth? As in, Thoth o(f the) Goth?
Dang it. Thought it erased my first draft. Oh well.
I’m honestly impressed that Tom has climbed up to his current rank, considering he continuously fails to assess the strength of the local ‘alpha’. Maybe that’s the real reason Dabbler was impressed.
I want to point out that Dabbler’s doing this on purpose. She knows exactly what that sounds like, she definitely didn’t intend to clarify anything, at least for a moment.
Dabbler is definitely doing this on purpose but I think she intends to fix the situation. This is one of those you owe me for getting you out of the mess I pushed you into situations so after giving Tom all the rope he needed to hang himself she’s going to clarify social norms for demons and provide context leaving Tom owing her.
and sydney back there just grabbing a pic of the awesomeness that is max going full throttle at toms face like palming a basketball.
i think, like someone else said, she’s providing backlighting so Max’s face is shadowed and ominous
Por que no los dos?
Funny sidenote for all who are interested in the german language:
“To rack ones brains” stands for “Sich den Kopf zerbrechen” in german, which literally translates back to “to break ones head”.
In a way, that is exactly what Max does. And I like it!
I am deriving an unseemly amount of glee from imagining Tom’s voice going panicked and high-pitched as he begs Dabbler to “fix it”, a.k.a. “explain things better so he won’t get his skull crushed by an enraged Maxima”.
I just don’t like him.
It just came to my attention in the vote incentive that Dabblers fourth hand is conspicuously absent from the image under the popcorn bowl, nudge nudge wink
Hey, if you find out somebody standing in front of you is a slaver, and you have the power to crush their skull with your bare hands, it seems reasonable to do that before giving it a single thought.
Except that, even n this context, Tom could mean it in a sexy way.
But I’d only crush the skull a leeetle bit. I vehemently oppose the death penalty because it forgives the convicted person the need to suffer for the crime(s). So a slaver would have to suffer through unknitted cranial bones causing all sorts of misery. For the rest of the slaver’s (I hope very long) life.
How does making more people suffer make the world a better place? There’s enough suffering to go around already; we should attempt to reduce it wherever possible.
Sometimes killing someone may be the most effective way to do that.
Suffering can be redressed. Death is permanent. Ergo, some mistakes can never be atoned. I prefer to make minor errors, they cost less.
Better then to not cause suffering at all. Make the criminal pay for their crimes in a way that benefits others, that reduces the suffering in the universe, rather than just pointlessly causing more.
We-e-e-elllll, some nations do still have the chain-gang. The work done in that fashion benefits others. Oz doesn’t do it but.
If you’re absolutely certain of their moral failings, that may be reasonable. If not, you may yourself be committing a horrible misdeed.
The outlook wouldn’t be good for humanity if that principle was applied broadly.
I just want to point out that Torabi and I agree on this.
While funny I am confused, this dude is completely non-threatening. Just appeared and he’s being owned every which way.
Almost his first words upon appearing were a direct statement that he was about to invade and a threat against Max’s life. https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-984-dont-tug-on-etc-etc/
He has been about as threatening as the ginger midget on Family Guy who constantly says, “Thats right, you wanna fight about it?”
Tom certainly has been very threatening. As in: making lots of threats.
So far he has not been very good at following through on those threats. But that may change depending on the size of his army at the other side of that portal. It is s bit different if there are a couple of dozen demons waiting there, or if there are couple of dozen billion of them …
Devon at least seems to be trying to explain that this is not so much a hostile take over but rather a corporate buy-out. Tom on the other hand is not having any of this diffusing the situation stuff.
“So far he has not been very good at following through on those threats.”
Like I said, he’s about as threatening a the ginger midget on Family Guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJimiVFCjJ0
” It is s bit different if there are a couple of dozen demons waiting there, or if there are couple of dozen billion of them …”
True, true. I can’t argue with that, although I think that outcome is very unlikely.
“Devon at least seems to be trying to explain that this is not so much a hostile take over but rather a corporate buy-out.”
That sounds fairly accurate, although I’d think of it more as an offer of being ‘invited into the corporate family.’ :)
With the recent conversations I saw this and couldn’t in see it. Thothogoth. Thoth o Goth. Idk what thothing is but it sure seems like he’s going way way out of his way to seem edgy and cool… Like he’s basically a demon goth/edge Lord.
It’s always a joy to watch Max rage.
Hard Disagree.
Max is as close to Mary Sue levels of power that it’s a touch annoying, and while I can’t argue against her conviction here, her easily pushed buttons make her a liability. She could stand to learn to think before she acts, IMHO.
I suspect her super speed hair trigger makes her used to just being the decisive actor in crisis situations, but not all situations are truly a crisis, she just often assumes they are, (or could be). It gets a touch muddier when all people present are metahuman and not truly in danger, so her response is inflated.
Max is clearly not only not in danger herself, she’s acting terribly irresponsibly at the moment. Perfectly great for a friend to do, absolutely unprofessional and dangerous in a military officer.
A Mary Sue that nearly died in the first major battle of the comic, huh?
Against someone who had to secretly power up and THEN fight everyone else just to be a close match to her then still only nearly won due to surprise and that energy based attacks cause her to put more to defense.
Yup, he had to use tactics and strategy to get close to winning.
Same with Sciona. And Deus kinda.
And all of Max’s showings throughout those events puts her firmly out of “mary sue” territory.
I’ve never considered Maxima to be a Mary Sue. Because she does not meet the definition of Mary Sue.
But her attitude combined with her general overpowered power level doesnt do many favors to her in a narrative sense when combatting a threat, because there’s no tension whatsoever if you KNOW she can just curbstomp them completely and utterly without even the slightest pushback. It’s not a mary sue at that point, but it is a wank. The exceptions being exactly the ones you mentioned – Sciona and Vehemence, two of the others who are on the splash page or (in Sciona’s case, splash page-adjacent). Which is why it’s jarring for Tom to be such a buttmonkey in comparison. Plus it does get in the way of the idea that Maxima is in any way a ‘professional high ranking military officer’ when she not only has no diplomatic skill whatsoever, but also does things which exacerbate situations instead of making things more safe in the long run.
Which is the point that both Rune and Rei are bringing up, essentially.
But that being said, this is not the end of this story arc so stuff could change in many ways to turn the tables. It’s one of the peculiarities of a webcomic format compared to just reading a comic book normally. When you read a normal comic book, you don’t have to wait days or weeks between pages.
> because there’s no tension whatsoever if you KNOW she can just curbstomp them completely and utterly without even the slightest pushback
When has that ever happened for a serious threat?
Certainly not with V, or Sciona, or Deus.
Max is a powerhouse, that’s her archetype as a character. And unlike in comics, Dave keeps how big of a deal she is consistent.
And the threats in the story of have been taking accountant for that. It’s honestly kind of refreshing and a nice break from stories that basically worf their supposed powerhouse characters.
“When has that ever happened for a serious threat?”
*cough* Fel supercarrier *cough*
Also the alien bounty hunters’ tech.
Also Brut.
Also the guy she gave a choice of ‘surrender or have your head amputated’ when she was alerted that Sydney was back.
Also the Vault Guardian.
Also, with V, had she listened to Sydney even once, it would have been a curb stomp there was well. Vehemence even admitted it. Before he had ‘power to burn.’
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-270-options-dwindling/
(panel 2)
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-274-master-sham/
(panel 2)
“If you caught me when I wasn’t already charged up you’d be able to crush me in short order.”
The Vehemence fight was, in fact, saved from being boring by Vehemence turning the tables on her halfway through the fight. Which is what made the Vehemence arc better to read than this. Admittedly the sheer length of the fight made it a bit of a slog to get through because of how slow it progressed, but people who read it all together would find it reads quite well. Reading webcomics change depending on if you’re waiting several days per page vs binge-reading many pages, or entire story arcs, all at once.
“Max is a powerhouse, that’s her archetype as a character.”
I’m aware of that, and I do like that about her. But it gets a little boring if she constantly is just punching down, narratively speaking. I admit, though, there’s an arguable reason for this – because this is actually Sydney’s story, not Maxima’s, and Maxima is the deutertagonist, not the protagonist.
“And unlike in comics, Dave keeps how big of a deal she is consistent.”
I’m aware of that too. But the reason I didnt really mind the curb stomps of stuff like the Vault Guardian or the bounty hunters or the Fel Supercarrier is there was no foreshadowing of them being major threats or a ‘villain gallery’ like Sciona, Vehemence, Arabic Guy supposedly-equal-to-Maxima, ‘cleansing guy, ‘mask girl’ or Thothogoth.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-186-fingers-to-maximum-steepleage/
So the expectation for Tom, in particular, is her would not be a curb stomp. Which he turned out to be. Or at least ‘is turning out to be so far.’ But like the Vehemence fight did show, that could always change. Or a more powerful person could tag in. I don’t know since I havent gotten that future sense power I was hoping for yet. :)
Oh, Deus is there too, but he’s not a villain, he is the paragon of humanity. And obviously any confrontation between him and Maxima, ridiculous as that may be, would have him win before there’s even a fight. Not that he would ever do something like that, being a paragon and all that. All praise Deus, amen.
“And the threats in the story of have been taking accountant for that. It’s honestly kind of refreshing and a nice break from stories that basically worf their supposed powerhouse characters.”
Ironically, they worfed Tom, actually. Like I said, he was being set up as a dangerous villain…. then turned out to not be. A worf effect in order to show how tough Maxima is. But the problem is… we already KNEW that Maxima was insanely powerful. So it feels like a missed narrative opportunity.
>*cough* Fel supercarrier *cough*
Man, the entire team clowned on the Fel, not just Max.
That goes for the rest of your examples; all things other team members could have or did, handle themselves just as easily.
And V says no such things in those panels; Just that if she hadn’t held back during the start of the fight, she would have won. But that’s irrelevant of Sydney.
>Ironically, they worfed Tom, actually.
Does that fit?
Tom had no feats and was not stated to be the strongest, well, anything.
“Man, the entire team clowned on the Fel, not just Max.”
The entire team did not bring down the Supercarrier. JUST Maxima. By herself. In a few seconds.
Soooo… no. You’re wrong there.
“That goes for the rest of your examples; all things other team members could have or did, handle themselves just as easily.”
No, not nearly as easily. Not even close. All of my examples are things that, with Maxima, tend to become a curbstomp instead of an actual fight.
Think of it like the Mannekiller fight. They were coming up with this whole big strategy on how to possibly stop that combined mannekiller…. then Maxima comes in and just annihilates it in 2 seconds before anyone knows what’s happening.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-485-miniboss-fight-music-record-scratch/
“And V says no such things in those panels; ”
…. I literally provided the links where he LITERALLY DOES SAY SUCH THINGS. I even provide the panel numbers where it’s said, and even sometimes gave the exact quotes. Cmon, be fair now.
“Tom had no feats and was not stated to be the strongest, well, anything.”
He literally started by giving his title and accomplishments, which Dabbler was impressed with. He was set up as one of the ‘big threats.’ Then immediately neutered (at least so far, or he might just be a ‘big threat-adjacent’ person, like the vampires were for Sciona). Unless it’s all a subversion of expectations like Supreme Leader Snoke was in Star Wars.
>The entire team did not bring down the Supercarrier. JUST Maxima. By herself. In a few seconds.
Yeah, but that fits the tone of the Fel getting smacked around in general. It was a cakewalk for everyone.
>No, not nearly as easily.
Aside from the Manekin? Max helped bring down the guardian that applied a magic debuff to her team.
Brut was a, well, one-off brute. And so was the nobody she threatened to decapitate.
I honestly don’t see the problem. Those aren’t important moments.
>He literally started by giving his title and accomplishments,
Hyping yourself up doesn’t make you a big deal. A highschooler with an ego problem can do that.
And Dabbler congratulates on just getting a promotion. That’s it. It’s not even something so dangerous she bothers warning anyone about.
“Yeah, but that fits the tone of the Fel getting smacked around in general. It was a cakewalk for everyone.”
It was not a cakewalk for everyone. It required strategy for most everyone else, except Stalwart.
It also required Cora having the shields up so they could be fighting the Fel attackers without worrying about the orbital bombardment.
With Maxima, though, it WAS a cakewalk. No real strategy needed – just plasma blast set to maximum and FIRE. She took down the actual threat. The supercarrier. Which is what we were talking about in the first place. The Fel Supercarrier, which probably had a LOT of Fel troops on it. A lot more than few grunt troopers that the others took care of.
I’m actually curious about something with you and a few others.
You want to say that Maxima is NOT a Mary Sue. Good. I don’t think she is a Mary Sue either, partially because of her flaws which are ACTUALLY relevant to being negative to her success in the story.
But then you argue with me about how those flaws were NOT flaws.
I argue that Maxima makes a lot of mistakes, which are not immediately fixed, or that are only fixed by sheer luck, not because of her planning.
Then you argue that she makes no mistakes.
You’re literally arguing that she IS a Mary Sue. Which she is not. I’m proving she is not, you’re trying to prove she is by arguing the elements which would make her one, even though the facts go against a Mary Sue label.
I don’t really understand that.
>It was not a cakewalk for everyone. It required strategy for most everyone else
What strategy? They just group up and started beating on them.
>But then you argue with me about how those flaws were NOT flaws.
Not really. Just pointing out how you’re misrepresenting certain things that happened.
“What strategy? They just group up and started beating on them.”
Here ya go. Strategy.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-766-bullet-dump/
“Not really. Just pointing out how you’re misrepresenting certain things that happened.”
Except I’m not misrepresenting things. I keep showing links and pointing out the panels where I’m explaining my reasoning, even. I’m pointing out Maxima’s mistakes, while you and a few others seem to be giving her a pass. Which are literally elements of being a Mary Sue, where ‘she does nothing wrong’ and ‘anyone who says they’re doing something wrong is bad.’ Which I don’t agree with, because I DON’T think Maxima is a Mary Sue. But it’s harder to argue that if I was to accept your view of Maxima.
>Here ya go. Strategy.
Fair enough.
>I’m pointing out Maxima’s mistakes, while you and a few others seem to be giving her a pass.
Me giving Max a pass on certain things or explaining how something isn’t nearly as bad as you think it is wouldn’t make her a Mary Sue or devoid of all flaws.
Especially since of all the mistakes Max has made (or been made to look less than perfect), we’ve only discussed a few.
“Me giving Max a pass on certain things or explaining how something isn’t nearly as bad as you think it is wouldn’t make her a Mary Sue or devoid of all flaws.”
I’m not saying that YOU think she’s a Mary Sue. I’m saying your arguments would be used to support the idea that Maxima is a Mary Sue, so i’m confused why you don’t seem to like arguments that show that Maxima has actual, problematic flaws that hinder the good guys’ progress.
“Especially since of all the mistakes Max has made (or been made to look less than perfect), we’ve only discussed a few.”
When I talk about Max’s mistakes, I’m talking about substantive mistakes – stuff which actually can affect the story. Not just meaningless or minor mistakes that have no real bearing on the progress of the good guys. In fact, most Mary Sues tend to have minor flaws that are overall meaningless (being clumsy, being ‘too pretty’, having a temper but never letting it actually get in the way of the job, being flirtatious, etc).
If Iron Man’s alcoholism never actually was debilitating to him, it wouldnt be much of a flaw. If Supergirl’s survivor’s guilt never made her freeze or made her get wracked with self-doubt to the point where villains were able to exploit it, it wouldnt be a substantive flaw. If Green Lantern Jessica Cruz’s being afraid did not actually hamper her ability to use her ring, it wouldnt be a real flaw. If Spider-Man did not constantly blame himself for his uncle’sdeath to the point where he puts himself in danger that’s over his head, then it would not be a substantive flaw.
Flaws need to actually be debilitating in order for the hero to have something to internally overcome, usually because they create their own problems on TOP of the normal opposition they have.
The reason we’ve only discussed a few of Maxima’s mistakes are because those are the substantive mistakes she’s made, mostly stemming from her temper and her hubris/arrogance. Her temper and hubris are flaws. The mistakes she makes as a result of those flaws make them SUBSTANTIVE flaws from a narrative standpoint. And Mary Sues can have flaws (usually as a way for the author of the Mary Sue to argue that they are not mary sues), but not SUBSTANTIVE flaws.
“Me giving Max a pass on certain things or explaining how something isn’t nearly as bad as you think it is wouldn’t make her a Mary Sue or devoid of all flaws.”
The element of being a Mary Sue that I’m talking about isnt about being devoid of all flaws. It’s about being devoid of all flaws that would be consequential to the story. Just saying Maxima has a temper does not make it a flaw if it always winds up being beneficial with no downside. I’m showing that her temper HAS a downside that can hurt her and the good guys.
I just find it weird that there are people who are being so insistent that Maxima does not do anything wrong. They DON’T think she’s a Mary Sue, but their arguments in favor of her always doing the right or understandable thing works against their stance of non-Mary Sue-ness.
Sort of like when I said Maxima was in the wrong with how she acted with Krona after the Mars factory, when Maxima did something that, under any reasonable scenario, would have been unconstitutional and against the rules that Maxima has to abide by (or if the ARCHON charter allows her to violate the Constitution, then the ARCHON charter itself would be unconstitutional in those areas).
To be fair, I don’t remember if you had an opinion on that or not. When I say ‘you’ I mean a more generalized ‘you’ being ‘people who keep defending problematic actions done by Maxima.’
>It’s about being devoid of all flaws that would be consequential to the story.
Well, of the things consequential to the story, we’ve discussed none.
The bridge, slapstick with Dabbler, and even what she’s doing to Tom right now isn’t really relevant to the story of Max’s character.
Max faces social/non-physical consequences and challenges most of the time. As is appropriate for her kind of character.
And on that scale, she has hardly been perfect or flawless. Her interactions with Deus alone shows that. Along with Dabbler, Cora, and Arianna.
>under any reasonable scenario, would have been unconstitutional and against the rules that Maxima has to abide by
But that wasn’t a scene portrayed as Max making a mistake or being shown up though. Those scenes are pretty clear.
“Well, of the things consequential to the story, we’ve discussed none.”
We’ve discussed MANY, frequently relating to how Maxima is reckless because of her anger issues, but you keep dismissing it. Which does make it seem like you’re arguing in favor of things which show her to be a Mary Sue. Because it’s like you don’t want to admit she’s flawed in ways that are BAD.
“The bridge, slapstick with Dabbler, and even what she’s doing to Tom right now isn’t really relevant to the story of Max’s character.”
Of course it is! IT shows a pattern of conduct and behavior of how she is reckless, can’t control her anger, and chooses the more violent route when it’s not the optimal route to use (again, mostly because of her hair trigger temper).
“And on that scale, she has hardly been perfect or flawless”
Part of the excuse made by people who say a Mary Sue is not a Mary Sue is to point to a flaw which is NOT relevant to the story, because it doesnt actually harm the character’s ability to do something, or where the flaw don’t wind up being negative after all. I’m pointing out flaws that DO harm her ability to do things, and ARE negative, and you’re arguing against that. Which is arguing in favor of things that would make her a Mary Sue.
“But that wasn’t a scene portrayed as Max making a mistake or being shown up though.”
It was an unconstitutional act by a federal officer who’s supposed to UPHOLD the Constitution. That’s a mistake. The idea of her not being shown up as a result makes it MORE likely, not less likely, that someone can successfully argue that she is a Mary Sue.
>We’ve discussed MANY, frequently relating to how Maxima is reckless
No, that’s what you think of Max based on your analysis of her character. Hell, you may even be right.
But the story surrounding Max clearly isn’t about that. Her being “reckless” or “too aggressive” simply aren’t things other characters talk about much, if at all.
>I’m pointing out flaws that DO harm her ability to do things
Deus’ ability to constantly plan around her and Archon by using his status is a flaw.
And I don’t remember you pointing out anything that harms Max’s ability to do things.
>That’s a mistake.
Hardly. She listened to Kora then instructed her to spend some time having her powers analyzed by Dabbler.
It was actually quite a diplomatic solution.
“No, that’s what you think of Max based on your analysis of her character. Hell, you may even be right.”
It’s been a very detailed analysis. :)
“But the story surrounding Max clearly isn’t about that. Her being “reckless” or “too aggressive” simply aren’t things other characters talk about much, if at all.”
It literally is, and has been a description of her by General Faulk. And by MAXIMA HERSELF DESCRIBING HERSELF AS A PR NIGHTMARE. And she’s proud of that fact.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-113-secret-meetings-in-smoky-wood-paneled-rooms/
Maxima: “In spite of Arianna’s instinct, I think she’ll be more of a PR nightmare than me. WHICH I MEAN AS A POSITIVE.”
General Faulk: “I don’t think you’re in any danger of being knocked off your throne yet, oh Destroyer of Mosques.”
She also does reckless things like pointing her firearms at other cadets, like Sydney, despite it being AGAINST THE GUN LAW SAFETY THEY ARE TRYING TO INSTILL IN THE CADETS.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-327-ask-a-self-evident-question/
(Panels 12 and 13)
And Peggy explains in DETAIL that the rules for everyone else do not apply to MAxima, but the VERY NEXT PANEL she invalidates her entire ‘exception for Maxima’ when she says:
Peggy: “That said, I don’t care what your powers are. Anyone not observing proper gun safety gets to carry around the pink latex gun in their holster for a week, as well as other possible non-judicial punishments. So JUST DON’T.”
Because all the excuses on why Maxima’s recklessness with a firerarms did not matter for her seem to not at all fix the fact that Maxima is reckless.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-332-guns-and-no-nos/
The idea of guaranteeing that Maxima will always catch the bullet, that she will NEVER be distracted at some horribly inopportune time, that things will always go how she planned… that’s HORRIBLY reckless gun safety, even if Supergirl might do something like that in the comics.
Supergirl does in a comic when she’s part of the Outsiders where she pretends to kill someone with a gun while undercover, but actually fires the gun, then at superspeed plucks the bullet out of the air, moves to the person she fired at, thwaps her with her finger to knock him out, and make it look like he was shot when he was not, all before the human eye could react.
Which is something Maxima can do. EXCEPT…. this comic is supposed to make a habit of deconstructing tropes like that as being stupid strategies to do in a ‘real world’ scenario of the grrlpower universe.
“Deus’ ability to constantly plan around her and Archon by using his status is a flaw.”
I don’t think you know what a flaw is if you call that a flaw. It’s the exact opposite of a flaw – his strategy and intelligence are STRENGTHS and virtues.
“And I don’t remember you pointing out anything that harms Max’s ability to do things.”
Then you seriously need to read my posts a LOT more carefully because it’s a HUGE amount of what I write about, including what I’ve written about in response to your posts.
“Hardly. She listened to Kora”
I’m assuming you mean Krona.
“then instructed her to spend some time having her powers analyzed by Dabbler.”
She did not just ‘instruct’ her. She ordered her and illegally detained her. I’m definitely not repeating my argument of that because you can just go back to those pages and read the SCORES (possibly over 100, in fact) of posts where I explain how what she did was unconstitutional in EXTREME detail, even pointing out the exact laws and parts of the Constitution that she violated.
“It was actually quite a diplomatic solution.”
That’s like saying the Japanese being put into essentially concentration camps until the end of World War 2 was quite the ‘diplomatic’ way of making sure there were no spies in the US. I could also make a Nazi comparison but I don’t feel like engaging in Godwin’s Law. or I could compare it to Stalin or Mao with people they thought were potential threats, but I feel that comparing Maxima to nazis, Stalin, or Mao would diminish the sheer evil of what they did, when there are less monstrous but still unconstitutional actions I can point to for examples.
>It literally is, and has been a description of her by General Faulk. And by MAXIMA HERSELF DESCRIBING HERSELF AS A PR NIGHTMARE. And she’s proud of that fact.
Yeah, dude, those are called jokes.
They in fact make no moves to pressure her to change in that regard and Max largely hasn’t.
These great flaws you see in Max aren’t portrayed as all that big in the context of the story.
Besides maybe the bridge, which is solved in short order anyways.
Perhaps make the barest attempt to read context so it doesn’t look like you’re trying to confidently lie your way through this.
>She ordered her and illegally detained her.
No one cares. Not even Kora.
And depending on what powers and privileges Max may have as an officer of Archon, it may not even be technically illegal.
Again, maybe walk away from this for a bit.
“Yeah, dude, those are called jokes.”
I don’t think it was a joke. At least not in-universe. It was legitimately describing Maxima as a P.R. nightmare, by the people responsible in universe for P.R.
“They in fact make no moves to pressure her to change in that regard and Max largely hasn’t.”
1) You do not know that. You are making an assumption.
2) Anvil realizes after Maxima’s press conference finale that she might get reduced in rank and Hiro put in charge instead. Maxima was just betting that she’s far too valuable because of her power level for the higher-ups to do something like that, because she’s incredibly arrogant about her own self-importance, largely for good reason.
3) There are senators who ARE pressuring this sort of thing because of Maxima being a PR nightmare.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-184-battling-the-future-with-rocks/
Anvil: “Aren’t you worried you’re going to get in trouble for scaring the press?”
Ariana: “Yes that’s right SENATOR! (said out loud so Maxima can hear that Ariana’s having to deal with Senators yelling for her to be punished for her actions during the press conference)”
Ariana: “I Agree she was heavy handed, but hte quailing effects of her actions regarding the super… blah blah blah PR Spin Doctoring”
Maxima: “I’m not really worried, no.”
Anvil: “You don’t think they’d knock you down a rank just to show who’s the boss. Bump up Hiro an put him in charge of ARC-SWAT?”
Maxima: “It’s possible, but I’m betting no.”
“These great flaws you see in Max aren’t portrayed as all that big in the context of the story.”
What are you talking about? Each flaw I mentioned is a substantive flaw or could be a substantive flaw. When you minimize them, you make them meaningless flaws, which supports the argument that Maxima is a Mary Sue.
“Perhaps make the barest attempt to read context so it doesn’t look like you’re trying to confidently lie your way through this.”
You’re beginning to take this way too personally if you’re accusing me of lying. Between the two of us, I’m the one who’s been giving links to support everything I’m saying. I’m confident because I’m correct.
“No one cares. Not even Kora.”
1) Krona, not Kora.
2) Krona did care. She just seemed to realize she had NO choice in the matter. Again, check the page where it happened. Even Maxima realized that what he was doing was arguably suspect, but Maxima tends to be full of self-importance and does not think anyone will ever call her on it.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-527-when-i-say-favor/
Do you understand why the name of the comic is ‘When I say favor’?
It’s because it wasnt actually a favor she was asking – it was a demand. It’s why Maxima planted her hand on Krona’s shoulder before taking her in.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-527-when-i-say-favor/
(panels 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7)
Krona is VERY concerned about Maxima laying her hands on her. Maxima makes sure to semi-alleviate that by saying ‘she wasnt going to disappear her into some blacksite.’ How nice of her to say that the unconstitutional action she was already committing would not be even more criminal. :)
Krona even stutters about it because she is NERVOUS about Maxima’s ‘insistence.’
She even threatens to cuff her if she did anything more with her powers – including making her jacket 2 sizes larger.
Maxima also gives the reason for why she wouldnt blacksite Krona being ‘atypical individuals are considered a national resource after all.’ Despite the fact that Krona is part of the Council’s VI. Maxima was not going to blacksite her because she can be potentially useful to Archon in the future. That’s some messed up reasoning there for someone who had just saved Sydney’s life.
“And depending on what powers and privileges Max may have as an officer of Archon, it may not even be technically illegal.”
Maxima is not allowed to violate the Constitution. I do not care what powers and privileges she has – she cannot have powers to violate the Constitution. She is not supposed to be above the law that she swore to uphold. That would make her an authoritarian tyrant instead of just a soldier or police.
>I don’t think it was a joke.
It was quite literally a set up for the punchline of Max looking cutely embarrassed about a past mistake.
It couldn’t clearly be a joke, you just don’t want it to be.
And I get it, it sucks to see something you think is serious be treated flippantly in a story, but it is what it is.
>Krona did care.
She looks nervous, like anyone who thinks tbey may be facing arrest but comes out of it happier and with a better understanding of her power.
All around, not a scene portraying Max as in wrong or overly aggressive.
>Maxima was not going to blacksite her because she can be potentially useful to Archon in the future. That’s some messed up reasoning there for someone who had just saved Sydney’s life.
I believe that may also be what is called a joke? Though you do you.
>I do not care what powers and privileges she has – she cannot have powers to violate the Constitution.
The government can and has given special permissions before, so it’s sadly not as cut and dry as you say.
Having high power was never a Mary Sue trait, being better at everyone at everything without trying or previous experience is what you are thinking of.
Also that term has become so badly mis-used at this point anyone calling a character that just comes across as *I don’t like this character therefor they must be this and no one else should like them either*
The classic Mary Sue is Wes Crusher from ST:TNG. No powers at all.
Wesley Crusher was more of a Scrappy Doo than a Mary Sue. :) But I mostly agree with this.
People do admittedly mis-use the trope term a lot, when they usually mean, when they’re talking about power levels, that there’s no narrative tension.
A Mary Sue is not a powerful character. (nor is it a fan service character or a self-insert)
It is a form of bad writing where the story and logic are subverted to glorify a single character.
Or as somebody put it: A Mary Sue is not just the central character of the story universe, it is the only real thing in that universe. Everything else exists to show how awesome the Mary Sue is.
The trope namer (and the reason why the bad writing style has become synonymous with female heroes) was actually a parody of bad fan fiction writing, not an attempt at serious writing.
The very first Mary Sue known from literature was actually a dude named Beowulf…
Max is not a Mary Sue because the grrlpower universe does not revolve around her. She is a fair bit more powerful than is comfortable for story telling, but as explained above, that is not what makes a Mary Sue.
“A Mary Sue is not a powerful character. (nor is it a fan service character or a self-insert)”
Well it can be both of those, but needs an additional element that you mentioned below, plus one MORE element – that the universe revolves around the character to make everything work in her (or his, for a Gary Stu’s) favor, and she is universally loved and/or respected, and never mocked.
Maxima gets mocked and teased quite a bit. By Dabbler in particular, by the bad guys, by Harem, by Sydney, by Arianna, once or twice by Anvil even. Also, a Mary Sue has no real flaws to speak of, and if she does have a flaw, it’s something harmless like ‘being adorably clumsy.’ Maxima doesnt really have any PHYSICAL weaknesses that we know of yet (except that when she maxes out one stat, it minimizes the others, but it’s been inconsistent on how powerful she is when she’s using her ‘golden triangle of power levels’), but she does have personality flaws of being arrogant and full of herself, having anger issues which make her do STUPID things (see the bridge incident), is prudish to the point of being socially inept (which Anvil is trying very hard to end as a personality flaw), and an inability to ever realize when she has made a mistake and ADMIT that she made a mistake. Basically similar personality flaws to Tony Stark, except Stark has alcoholism and hedonism instead of anger management problems and prudishness.
But power alone is not an element of being a Mary Sue.
Rey from Star Wars sequels, Michael Burnham from Star Trek Discovery, and to an extent, Wonder Woman from DC Comics (okay she is not QUITE a Mary Sue, but she gets close very often with certain writers) are Mary Sues. Luke Skywalker from the original trilogy, Ahsoka from Clone Wars/Rebels, and Supergirl from DC comics are not, despite also being massively powerful characters.
Oh also Stephen Seagal in almost every movie he’s ever been in aside from Executive Decision is a massive Gary Stu.
I think I’ve offered a similar definition before: it’s not the traits of a Mary Sue that are relevant, but that the story and its elements treat the character differently from other characters. The Mary Sue is praised or rewarded for having some trait, while some other character is vilified or punished for having the same trait. They might be mocked, but only to establish the mocking character as a villain. The story exists to elevate the Mary Sue, which is why self-insert characters are so common.
The thought of Tony Stark as a prude amuses me for some reason.
To be fair I get that definition largely from a Youtube channel called Literary Devil (I havent watched his channel for a while – who I disagree with in some areas, but his definitions are spot-on accurate), and he explained what a Mary Sue is better than anyone I’ve ever heard describe it.
Found one of his videos about Mary Sues.
In one of his videos he gets more into explaining the definition, or it might be ‘The Tutorial Demon’ who explains it as:
“Your standard Mary Sue typically possesses traits like:
1) Being loved regardless of how they act;
2) Anyone who actually does dislike them is evil;
3) They’re always right;
4) Anyone who disagrees with them is always wrong;
5) Their comebacks are always considered ‘clever’ and ‘witty’;
6) They’re stronger than everyone, faster than everyone, and more powerful than everyone;
7) They’re the best at everything they do, even if they’ve never tried it before;
8) They don’t have flaws, or;
9) If they do have flaws, it’s something small, like being clumsy, or the opposite, like being ‘too pretty’ (yes, that’s a real thing with Mary Sue characters)
You see this a lot in fanfiction, because the natural habitat of the Mary Sue -is- Fanfiction.
This likely stems from the author wanting to place themselves in their favorite series. Not their real selves, with all those nasty ‘human’ elements… but their ideal selves. The one with the great hair, great looks, and existent social skills.”
This clearly does not describe Maxima. Nor does it describe DaveB.
and for those who don’t have an hour to spare, here is a condensed and concise video on the subject from Overly Sarcastic Productions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU
I think it would be an hour well spent. it’s a really well-done video. :)
But I like the video you showed as well. I think I’ve watched it as well.
I particularly like this part of the video when describing the “Gen 1 Mary Sue”:
“Our buddy Mary Sue is gorgeous, talented, desired and respected by everybody. She’s better than everybody at what they do, but nobody’s mad about it because she’s JUST SO AMAZING. But none of that is why we dislike her. No, we find her annoying because THE STORY IS EMPTY. This version of Mary Sue takes the spotlight and prima-donnas her way through an otherwise fascinating fictional universe. This is just pure wish fulfillment. She’s a bundle of character traits with nothing behind the eyes and makes the story no fun, unless you like pretending to be her because the story becomes entirely centered on how great she is.”
Then she describes second generation Mary Sues, and sub-sections of Mary Sues like Jerk Sues, Possession Sues, and Villain Sues. :) Plus a lot of other gen 2 Mary Sues. Then gets into examples in original writing, not just fanfics. Good video.
On that list I agree with most however,
5: can just be bad writing, see plenty of folk heroes who the author insisted were clever and witty but if not for plot armor and apparently living in a world with everyone dumber than them they wouldn’t be, yet I wouldn’t consider them Mary Sues because they fit the type of story. even if in real life their come back are groaners.
6: See earlier statement that this is NOT a Mary Sue trait, and the fact it keeps being targeted as such has made so many writers focus on creating absurd weaknesses or nerfing characters rather than work on their actual personalities and character traits. Heck Goku *save the (where the hell was this asshole hiding this whole time uber powerful character opponent)* has for much of Dragon Ball and beyond matched the stronger, faster, and whatever definitions like ninety percent of the time. Especially in the first series, there would only occassionally be a slight struggle which was overcome by a little training or some clever idea by Goku. Yet few would consider Goku a Mary Sue
*PS Goku is loved by most the cast, even if you have to add (as friends0) but like half his friends used to be enemies at some point.
and the few characters who do genuinely dislike them are evil, see Frieza.
See this is one of the big problems with even using the term Mary Sue, people like to justify their dislike by adding all these really specific points, some of which are okay from a writing element, but others are clearly a matter of taste and even genre.
or is Bugs Bunny a Mary Sue? check that list and then look back at most Bugs Bunny cartoons.
I just thought of another example of a Gary Stu btw.
ANY CHARACTER PLAYED BY NEIL BREEN. :)
Re: Pander.
Is disagree with the notion that Rey is a Mary Sue character any more than Luke is. Or if she is, then so is he, since their characters are essentially the same.
Both of them are trying to escape their situation (Luke from being trapped as a moisture farmer in the backwater of all backwaters, Rey from losing her parents). Rey is looking for somebody who tells her what she should do. She wants to be the hero, but has no idea what that means for her. In the first movie this is a bit more subtle, though she outright states it once, and it is pretty much the central them of her entire character arc in the second movie.
But neither of them are the point around which the entire story revolves. They are the heroes of their stories, but their story is not only about them. Luke had Leia, Han and Chewbacca and those three had their own arcs that interacted with the greater threat of the empire in independent ways. Rey had Finn, Luke and Kylo and again those had their own interaction with the greater threat of the New Order independent of what Rey was doing. Both Luke and Rey had a power to do the one thing nobody else could do, but this did not define the story and neither story elevated their heroes /before/ that defining action.
There aren’t actually all that many Mary Sues (of either gender) in literature. But the label gets applied increasingly to any female character with heroic character traits. Few people know what a Mary Sue actually is and only know of the wrongly applied label. And as such they are unwittingly complicit in a deliberate attempt by a tiny minority of very outspoken reactionaries to remove all female representation from media beyond the pre-feminist notions of what a woman should be (and aspire to be). Because Mary Sue is such a toxic label it is a handy tool to brandish for those who do not want to see any female representation with any heroic characters or characters with agency of their own. And because the label is so ubiquitous it also is an extremely effective tool.
I forgot to add that in the first two movies Luke is also constantly looking for guidance and confirmation. A bit less explicitely because the 1980s hero trope would not allow too many uncertainties to be displayed in the hero of the story. We got a bit better with story telling and trope evasion in the decades since the first star wars movie of course. We got some very interesting and entertaining characters out of that freedom from old stereotypes.
(the problem with the star wars sequels was not so much Rey or the rest of the new cast but Han and Luke. Their characters inexplicably were rolled back and/or put on hold. Which was frankly unacceptable for characters we knew so well from their own trilogies. Given that they are old now and that 40 or so years have passed we can accept them changing, but we need to be shown the reason why they changed as they did, and we need it to be a better reason than we got, as these were the heroes of their trilogy and heroes do not simply roll back their entire heroic character arc.
The problem originated not with Rian Johnson but with JJ Abrahams when he set up the puzzle box of ‘Luke is missing’. The template he wrote The Force Awakens from required a roguish character and he pushed the Han Solo character into that slot ignoring the poor fit, warping the character from the end of The Return of the Jedi to the one from the beginning of A New Hope. Johnson was then left to answer the question of ‘why did Luke
kywalker leave, and why did he stay away?’ He only had the flashback where Kylo Ren and his knights destroyed the Jedi temple and order that Luke was rebuilding. Johnson at that point had no good options of how to explain all that coherently and the solution her arrived at ended up making Luke looking decidedly unheroic. For Han a better way could easily have been found to introduce him into the story, though Poe would have been written to take over the role of the rogue that the template required. For Luke I cannot think of a different solution that would have been better than what we got. The choices were that Luke was incompetent, cowardly, oblivious or defeated. The bitter old man we got was mostly the defeated one with a bit of being oblivious thrown in. This is such a big departure from the hero we got at the end of Return of the Jedi that it needed a lot more explanation than the movie took time to give. The key reason we needed to be told is why Luke came to the conclusion that the Jedi order must disappear. As that led to his self imposed exile. That explanation should have been in the three lessons that Luke gave Rey. He explained what the force is, but he never explained where the Jedi order got it all wrong. Johnson had a similar opportunity in the meetings of Rey and Kylo but equally dropped the ball there. And as a result we got an uncharacteristically bitter Luke without any real explanation of how he got to that point, and thus a severe disconnect in the expectations and perceptions of the audience.
“Is disagree with the notion that Rey is a Mary Sue character any more than Luke is. Or if she is, then so is he, since their characters are essentially the same.”
I would actually give a VERY long explanation on why Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke is not, but Literature Devil did an amazingly good Youtube video on this, so I’m just going to include that video here for you to enjoy.
The video is called “Why Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke Skywalker is Not. It’s about 36 minutes long
I literally could not put it better than he did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN8Qm5o0oSY&t=33s
He also does mention a bit on this in this video as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7CtqvjdnAY
Enjoy!
Watched the video, on double speed with captions on.
Can’t say I am convinced by his arguments.
He typically puts up a specific aspect of Luke’s character or abilities and then tells how Luke ‘developed’ those naturally. (like stating that growing up on a moisture farm explains why he is a great speeder pilot and a great shot, even when logically there is no causation. Plenty of farm boys on earth are not particularly good drivers, and while most of them can shoot, that does not make them automatically exceptional shots (or the olympic gun categories would be dominated by farm boys))
He ten puts up Rey and brings up a similar, occasionally vaguely similar, situation and then usually without any arguments just claims this proves that Rey is a Mary Sue character. E.g. Luke being a Farmboy is somehow exempting him from that label, but that fact that Rey grew up on a desert planet and was forced by the local crime boss to work as a parts scavenger somehow means she is unnaturally awesome and a Mary Sue.
In truth, both characters are the hero of the story and are presented as more capable than average. Which is kind of part of the definition of heroic characters (people who can, and will, do things that ordinary people cannot or will not do).
The whole video is full of this kind of contrasting presentation, where Luke gets shown in a positive light while similar situations or attributes in Rey are dismissed, with hardly any evidence or reasoning, as negative and proof of her Mary Sue-ness.
On top of that the creator of that video seems to go by a different, and in my personal opinion fairly useless, definition of a Mary Sue as ‘a character who gains power without much effort being shown’
I think the Overly Sarcastic Productions definitions of Mary Sue being a form of bad story telling with an overly centralised story that sacrifices the story for glorifying the central character’ is more useful in distinguishing what is and is not a Mary Sue.
I prefer the first definition because the first easily covers the majority of heroes in all stories. It certainly includes Luke because, let’s face it, he ‘masters’ the Force in a couple of days. He spends a little time on the Millenium Falcon being blindfolded and getting zapped by a floating droid and only at the end of that trip (which even by the loose definition of travel times in Star Wars cannot have been more than a day or two, if that) he manages to block a zap. Once. Then he does no training and no force using until the very end where he intuits the exact moment to fire those torpedoes because of the Force. In the second movie he pulls a new Force ability out of thin air that nobody could have taught him. He shows that he is still an exceptional speeder pilot, then flies off to Yoda for training. Then returns because Leia e.a. have managed to get themselves in trouble. If you go by how long /their/ story is we come again at no more than a couple of days, and this time we must disregard travel time completely or Luke would have set off from Dagobah days before the Falcon even arrived at the gas giant. Between the second and third movie enough time has passed that Luke could have used to get some (self) training done. But it is still a matter of months, not years as the movies implied mastering the Force would normally take.
Now compare that to Rey’s accomplishments and can you honestly say it is meaningfully different? She is a skilled pilot same as Luke when neither has a particular reason to be one other than talent and force sensitivity. Luke is a good shot while Rey used a quarter staff her whole life and is good with that weapon. Both learn they are Force sensitive and start experimenting with it, learning tricks they did not know before (Luke with telekinesis and Rey with mental domination). Both get cursory training from a reluctant mentor and break off that training shortly to do something heroic but foolhardy, and have that blow up in their faces. Then they both learn from that mistake and apply themselves to training and gain a measure of mastery. The first time we see either fight with an actual light saber both are at the ‘whack it hard’ level of no-skill. Granted, Rey shows more actual skill by the end of movie 8 than Luke did by the end of movie 5, but Rey had trained her entire life with a quarter staff. The jump from that to sword is a lot shorter than from rifle to sword.
As you can see, it does not take great leaps of imagination to argue that Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke is (or that if either is then both are) given how similar their characters and character arcs have been deliberately made by the writers and directors. And if you want to label Rey exclusively a Mary Sue then you have to come up with a better argument than: Because Reasons.
“Can’t say I am convinced by his arguments.”
I’m not sure why you wouldnt be, but to each their own.
The problem with Rey is she doesnt actually do anything to learn or earn her powers. Luke does.
Rey is never shown to be anything less than perfect, from start to finish. Luke is – he starts as a whiny kid, becomes arrogant and that arrogance results in his getting his hand chopped off by Vader, then finally matures into a fully realized hero in the end. Rey has NO growth. She doesnt have a character arc – she has a character…. horizontal line.
Everyone respects Rey from start to finish – even the bad guys. Most people dismiss Luke or treat him as weak, especially in the first movie. Han does, the Rebels do, the Emperor does, Vader does (even as he’s trying to get him to side with him to overthrow the Emperor). Obi Wan treats him like a student who does not know what he’s doing – because he does not know what he’s doing. Yoda treats him like an undisciplined student… because that’s what he is at that point in time.
Rey has skills and knowledge where there’s absolutely no logical reason for her to have. Why would she know how to speak Wookie on a planet where she’s NEVER seen a wookie. Why would she know how to fly the Millenium Falcon BETTER THAN THE PERSON WHO OWNED HER FOR DECADES? Why would she be better at using a lightsaber than Kylo Ren, who learned from Luke Skywalker himself. Heck, why is she better than Luke Skywalker as well? With NO TRAINING. Why is she able to use Jedi Mind tricks only a few second after knowing that power exists, and less than a day before knowing that the Force existed at all? Why can she sail a ship through waters which even skilled sailors on that planet say is impossible… when she grew up on a DESERT PLANET! Why can she use a staff to defeat multiple trained soldiers simultaneously, before she even knew that she had the Force? Why can she shoot with perfect accuracy only a second after holding a gun for the first time ever? She doesnt LEARN anything. She just automatically knows everything. Luke had to learn everything he did later on, and we see him doing the learning process.
The world seems to just alter itself FOR Rey, without rhyme or reason as to why. Things like Luke’s lightsaber turning up in the cantina, with no explanation except “A good question, for another time” (which never happens). Things like BB-8 staying with Rey instead of Po. He’s Po’s droid – give him BACK REY YOU DROID THIEF. Things like her Kylo Ren trying to kill her by RUNNING HER OVER WITH HIS TIE FIGHTER… instead of, yknow…. just blasting her like a normal person would. Things like her going from one planet to another in the blink of an eyes, despite how it should be taking TIME to get from one place to the other, like it did in the original 3 movies AND the prequels. With Luke it takes time, with Rey it doesn’t.
So yes, Rey meets all the elements of being a Mary Sue.
1) Being loved regardless of how they act – Rey is. Luke is not.
2) Anyone who actually does dislike them is evil – This is true for Rey. This is not true for Luke (Han does NOT like Luke at first. Several Rebel pilots were dismissive of Luke when he said he could shoot at the weak spot since it wasnt much bigger than a womp rat – and those other pilots were NOT evil.
3) They’re always right – Rey is NEVER wrong.
4) Anyone who disagrees with them is always wrong – See #3
5) Their comebacks are always considered ‘clever’ and ‘witty’ – Plus also smarter than others at their own areas of expertise (better than Han at fixing the Millenium Falcon, better at flying than Po, the best pilot in the Rebellion, better at using a lightsaber than Kylo Ren OR Luke Skywalker, better at the Force than Luke Skywalker, a better shot with a blaster pistol or ship’s blasters than Finn, etc. And she always has the witty comeback, unless it’s to show that the other person is evil because he’s been mean to Rey (Kylo Ren calling her parents nobodies – and that even turns out to be a lie).
6) They’re stronger than everyone, faster than everyone, and more powerful than everyone – see #5
7) They’re the best at everything they do, even if they’ve never tried it before – see #5
8) They don’t have flaws, or;
9) If they do have flaws, it’s something small, like being clumsy, or the opposite, like being ‘too pretty’ – Rey’s only flaw, if anything, is she wants to belong. It’s a minor flaw which doesn’t actually HURT her or get in her way – if anything it just drives her. Even when she makes a mistake, like pressing the wrong button to let those giant Rathtars, it winds up being great because they kill all the bad guys and none of the good guys get hurt, which allows them to get away. And that’s before she’s had even a single second of even being off the planet.
Now lets look at Luke:
1) Being loved regardless of how they act – he’s not loved regardless of how he acts. Yoda doesn’t take any of his whining crap. Han thinks he’s a gullible idiot for believing in the Force. The resistance does not have the instant faith in him that they have in Rey.
2) Anyone who actually does dislike them is evil – See #1
3) They’re always right – Luke is CONSTANTLY wrong. He makes mistake after mistake, repeatedly. Mistakes which actually affect what happens in a negative way. He got his hand chopped off because he left Yoda’s training before he was ready. He got captured by the Ewoks. He did not do everything on his own – he always NEEDED help for his greatest triumphs (destroying the death star was only possible because of Han, stopping the emperor was only because of getting through to Vader, who we already knew wanted to overthrow the Emperor, but now also wanted to save his son from being killed BY the emperor, Leia basically got them free during the prison break when they were cut off in the hallway, R2D2 freed them from the trash compactor, and everyone pretty much helped make his REALLY bad plan against Jabba wind up working at all.
4) Anyone who disagrees with them is always wrong – Obi Wan and Yoda were both ENTIRELY correct that he was not ready to face Vader. At all. As opposed to Rey, who beat Kylo every single fight, despite non-existent training.
5) Their comebacks are always considered ‘clever’ and ‘witty’ – Luke is not clever or witty. For most of the first movie, he’s actually VERY whiny. Then for most of the second movie he’s arrogant and it does not make things remotely easier for him.
6) They’re stronger than everyone, faster than everyone, and more powerful than everyone – again – Luke… LOST… against Vader. Luke was losing against the Emperor and only survived because Vader saved him. Luke was going to get blown up by Vader but Han saved him. Luke almost froze to death on Hoth but Han saved him there as well.
7) They’re the best at everything they do, even if they’ve never tried it before – See #6.
8) They don’t have flaws, or – Luke definitely has flaws. Impatience, being whiny, not listening to his teachers until it’s too late, having NO street smarts whatsoever in the first movie (and having to be continually saved by other people)
9) If they do have flaws, it’s something small, like being clumsy, or the opposite, like being ‘too pretty’ – See #8 – Luke’s flaws are never small, unlike Rey’s.
And all that I wrote is a fraction of the reasoning that Literature Devil gave :)
I was genuinely hoping Thotogoth was a match for max. She’s claimed Dabbler could fight her and relatively equal ground and Toth should be a match for get off not stronger. I was hoping the finger flip earlier was from surprise but…haaa
well I don’t know, page 176 infers that dabbler whomped up on Thom handily…
Looks more like she did something to trick him into falling into a trap than ‘whomping him handily’
Long story short… Thotogoth really needs better PR management as he keeps making things worse by saying the wrong things.
We think he is powerful and scary… But we may be dealing with an office worker or someone along the lines of Lex Luther in… Plans and Traps instead of Punch and Fight. Popping up and looking big and scary stops most opponents thinking they are bigger and thus more dangerous. It is why lots of animals puff themselves up to look bigger and why humans are told to try looking as big as possible to stop some wild animals from possibly ripping them apart.
When faced with Max in (Show of force stops a fight before it starts) line of thinking… That is like taunting the Punisher from Marvel about doing smething dangerous to inncoent people unless they are set free… And thinking he is Batman.
Is Sydney taking a pic in Panel 5?
To be fair, if you go to a planet that has never heard of humans and you call your race “baby eater”, it is as likely they’ll take that as an awkward translation and be resigned to calling everyone from Earth that. Which could lead to unfortunate diplomatic snafu’s when the races meet officially.
This is also assuming the non-human race in question understands what you mean by the word ‘baby’
This should be good.
…ya know, this page has some Unfortunate Implications to it. It’s essentially a police brutality incident, and is a bit jarring given all the BLM stuff in the news over the past few years.
Don’t worry. Who would call Max out on it?
I think Dabbler might be about to.
Max’s extreme feminism is going to get her into trouble someday. She reacts violently to ANYTHING she thinks is mysogynist (like that ‘burka’ joke early in the comic, which was apparently something she regularly falls for); here she’s ready to crush somebody’s head, even though Dabbler obviously has no problem with the word.
In real life, Max would be seriously scary because she obviously knows nobody can control her unless she goes along with it. Meaning she knows she can get away with anything. I wonder how her early training went. Can’t imagine Max letting a sergeant shouting abuse to her.
When did she ever react violently to someone before that wasn’t an enemy?
I can’t even remember her *threatening* to hit anyone that wasn’t either fighting or gearing up to fight(V and Tom). Max usually just hits someone or she doesn’t.
“When did she ever react violently to someone before that wasn’t an enemy?”
You put a qualifier on it by adding ‘that wasn’t an enemy.’ But if you mean ‘that wasn’t an enemy that was actively fighting her’… then technically, Sciona meets that criteria once.
She tried to plasma blast Sciona when she was flying after her, which directly caused Maxima to almost destroy the bridge and could have injured or killed a lot of civilians. Not to mention a lot of innocent cuddly kittens.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-615-whoops/
She didnt even stay to save them. Just did a very quick patch-hob which would only last a very short amount of time, according to her, and relied on others from ARC-SWAT getting there to save the people that she herself endangered.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-616-superhero-triage/
Does that count? :)
Also she tried to attack Dabbler in the ballroom during Sydney’s interview. Dabbler is definitely not an enemy. Just someone who irritates Maxima in general. Maxima was the one to first grab Dabbler, then Dabbler responded to being grabbed by giving Maxima’s tush a squeeze… which resulted in Maxima trying to punch Dabbler very hard (but Dabbler was able to first get up a shield to counter it, then was hiding behind Sydney’s shield.
She also apparently destroyed a mosque once. And while she first said it was an accident, she then murmured ‘mostly.’ Which implies it wasn’t really an accident.
She also almost killed her little brother when she was younger when he popped a paper bag by her. That was a pretty violent reaction to being startled, but admittedly, that falls more under ‘accident’ since there was no intent there at all, and it would be unreasonable to say it was from recklessness, because until that point, she didnt even know that she HAD plasma blast powers.
“I can’t even remember her *threatening* to hit anyone that wasn’t either fighting or gearing up to fight(V and Tom). Max usually just hits someone or she doesn’t.”
I’m not sure if this counts as a threat or not, but the ‘Impress me with your silence’ to the incredibly annoying customer in the comic book shop. To Maxima’s credit, she did not throw him through a window (like Sydney was embellishing) and instead flew onto the top of the comic book shop to not have to deal with him.
This. Sometimes Max reminds me of someone with a hammer, who sees everything as a nail.
Admittedly she’s an effective hammer, but one that will probably also be using that hammer on screws, the wood board itself (breaking it), and the occasional mal-adjusted puppy.
:)
> Does that count? :)
No, because Sciona was a terrorist that Max was told was playing around with the magical equivalent of WMDs and who needed to be stopped at all costs.
Why would you even bring up that example?
>Also she tried to attack Dabbler in the ballroom during Sydney’s interview.
Dabbler groped her. A punch is honestly the expected response from such misconduct.
>She also apparently destroyed a mosque once. And while she first said it was an accident, she then murmured ‘mostly.’ Which implies it wasn’t really an accident.
We also don’t know the context of that.
Are you seriously just trying to omit context, or bring up instances we know little about, to make Max look bad?
“No, because Sciona was a terrorist that Max was told was playing around with the magical equivalent of WMDs and who needed to be stopped at all costs.
Why would you even bring up that example?”
Because her ill-advised attack on Sciona INSTEAD of just chasing her and capturing her that way almost killed a lot of civilians due to Maxima’s actions.
“Dabbler groped her. A punch is honestly the expected response from such misconduct.”
Look one panel before that. Maxima was the first one to do something aggressive there as well. Dabbler groped in RESPONSE to being angrily grabbed by Maxima. Maxima typically uses way more force than necessary.
“We also don’t know the context of that.”
I know. I’m only bringing it up because Maxima then murmured ‘mostly.’ If she did not, I would not have brought it up.
“Are you seriously just trying to omit context, or bring up instances we know little about, to make Max look bad?”
I haven’t omitted context at all. I’m just being fair and honest about things because I expect arguments to be steelmanned, not strawmanned. I’m using Maxima’s own admissions. Maxima DOES look bad in multiple cases. A police officer who had a history of excessive violence that she has would likely get visited by IA. It’s probable that the reason Maxima does not is she is so insanely important BECAUSE of her powerset and the extreme level of her powers that they give her a LOT of leeway, despite her anger management problems.
>Because her ill-advised attack on Sciona INSTEAD of just chasing her and capturing her that way almost killed a lot of civilians due to Maxima’s actions.
Even if you believe that; that’s not an instance of Max attacking someone over just being angry or offended.
> Dabbler groped in RESPONSE to being angrily grabbed by Maxima.
Holy shit, Max grabbed her shoulder and pushed Dabbler forward by approximately 1 foot.
That’s hardly equivalent to squeezing Max’s ass.
>I know. I’m only bringing it up because Maxima then murmured ‘mostly.’ If she did not, I would not have brought it up.
Again, what does Max mostly, accidentally destroying a Moscow have to do with whether or not she attacks people over just anger?
We don’t know the context of why or how that happened. So it’s a bad example.
>I haven’t omitted context at all.
You literally did in the case Sciona. Omitting the fact that she was an active, fleeing threat of national scale.
>A police officer who had a history of excessive violence that she has would likely get visited by IA.
Irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Max hits people over mean words/simple offense.
“Even if you believe that; that’s not an instance of Max attacking someone over just being angry or offended.”
Actually yes, she attacked with a plasma blast right there and then because she was angry, instead of continuing to just pursue her or use her superior speed to catch her.
“Holy shit, Max grabbed her shoulder and pushed Dabbler forward by approximately 1 foot.
That’s hardly equivalent to squeezing Max’s ass.”
Maxima started the ‘unwanted touching’ And she grabbed the back of her neck and yanked her violently forward and downwards. Let’s be honest – If someone did that to you, you’d definitely consider that aggressive and violent behavior.
“You literally did in the case Sciona. Omitting the fact that she was an active, fleeing threat of national scale.”
I literally did not omit anything. At the point where Maxima was throwing a plasma blast at her, Sciona was NOT creating a threat of national scale. She was a fugitive, but there was not any active threat. The active threat was caused BY MAXIMA’S ACTIONS. Sciona’s primary goal the entire time was to be able to get home, in fact. Her plans all seemed to involve stalling and slowing down the heroes’ progress long enough to get the portal active so she could get back to Alar. And she couldnt just get help from the Council to do that, because the Council had already tried to behead and murder her in the past.
“Irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Max hits people over mean words/simple offense.”
You think that Maxima having a history of excessive violence is irrelevant to whether Max hits people over mean words and simple offenses? How is that irrelevant? It’s directly on point as character evidence.
>Actually yes, she attacked with a plasma blast right there and then because she was angry
She did it because Scion was a fleeing terrorist who she thought was targeting the bridge she was drawing closer to.
Not because she just hates Sciona so darn much.
>Maxima started the ‘unwanted touching’ And she grabbed the back of her neck and yanked her violently forward and downwards
You’re adding a whole bunch of stuff that Dabbler clearly didn’t feel about the sistuation. She was completely balanced and unruffled the whole time, even finding the time to grab her ass while going with the motion.
>At the point where Maxima was throwing a plasma blast at her, Sciona was NOT creating a threat of national scale.
Yes, she was. Max and her team were already made aware that Sciona was fleeing and intending to use very dangerous magical weapons, which makes her a threat.
>You think that Maxima having a history of excessive violence is irrelevant to whether Max hits people over mean words and simple offenses?
Yup. Because excessive violence, even if I were to give you that, doesn’t answer the question of what sparks said violence.
“She did it because Scion was a fleeing terrorist who she thought was targeting the bridge she was drawing closer to.”
She literally proved seconds later AFTER the bridge that she could have just tackled her instead with her superior speed and strength, which would not have resulted in collateral damage from recklessly firing plasma blasts in an area where civilians were present, because she did not even THINK to take into account the possibility of a ricochet.
Why are you trying to prove that Maxima is always right if you agree that she’s not a Mary Sue? Which I’m assuming you agree that she isnt, right?
“Not because she just hates Sciona so darn much.”
It’s not about hate. It’s about her temper and reckless actions. She gets angry, then she gets arrogant, then she gets reckless. Or she gets arrogant, then she gets angry, then she gets reckless.
“You’re adding a whole bunch of stuff that Dabbler clearly didn’t feel about the sistuation.”
1) You’re adding a bunch of stuff that was not the case with Tom, like ignoring that there was no longer a threat of invasion.
2) As you can see in the comic, Dabbler says ‘oof!’ and what Maxima to Dabbler did does not look remotely comfortable. Panels 5 and 6
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-101-what-else-would-you-do-with-two-invisible-arms/
Even Sydney was taken aback and put her arms up defensively from the action.
“Yes, she was. Max and her team were already made aware that Sciona was fleeing and intending to use very dangerous magical weapons, which makes her a threat.”
Really. What was the national threat? What specifically did ARCHON know that Sciona was going to do? They did not know. WHat was causing a threat was Maxima using a plasma blast, instead of, say, tackling Sciona into the water.
She clearly was CAPABLE of doing that, because she did it seconds later in the forest. Maxima was choosing the more violent route instead of the smarter, less reckless route. And that caused the bridge to get destroyed.
“Because excessive violence, even if I were to give you that, doesn’t answer the question of what sparks said violence.”
What seems to repeatedly spark it is a far lesser cause to her effect. It’s sometimes insults, sometimes words, sometimes a grope, sometimes she just has a temper because someone’s being insubordinate. Sometimes she is surprised at a part of a meteorite on someone’s shelf. She just tends to react with anger, and often with violence. Usually very disproportionally excessive violence compared to the cause or the point of why she’s using violence in the first place.
A cop, which she essentially is, should not have a history of excessive and disproportional violence.
Heck, that is her main concern about Sydney – that she will abuse her status as a cop and the authority that comes with the badge.
—-
Seriously though, I want to know, putting the whole Fiend’s Advocate though argument aside… why are you trying to make it as if Maxima never makes any mistakes? You do realize your arguments, if they were accurate, which the are not, would be arguments in FAVOR of saying Maxima is a Mary Sue, right?
>She literally proved seconds later AFTER the bridge that she could have just tackled her instead with her superior speed and strength
At their speeds, “seconds later” is far past the bridge. To stop the attack she thought Sciona was preparing, Max needed to stop her in the moment.
>It’s about her temper and reckless actions.
But this entire comment chain is about whether or not Max attacks people just because she’s offended.
Which blatantly isn’t true.
>As you can see in the comic, Dabbler says ‘oof!’ and what Maxima to Dabbler did does not look remotely comfortable.
Dabbler looks fine though? She’s even smiling and we know she has enhanced strength.
>What was the national threat? What specifically did ARCHON know that Sciona was going to do?
Intel from the Council about how dangerous the artifacts she stole were.
That’s like the entire arc of them even finding out about her.
>What seems to repeatedly spark it is a far lesser cause to her effect.
But not due to just simple offense or anger.
I rest my case.
“At their speeds, “seconds later” is far past the bridge. To stop the attack she thought Sciona was preparing, Max needed to stop her in the moment.”
She caught up to Sciona, despite giving her seconds of a head start during her ‘quick patch’ of the bridge damage that Maxima herself caused. That just further shows that Maxima could have easily tackled her at superspeed BEFORE Sciona would be at the bridge, if Maxima thought Sciona was going to do something to it.
“But this entire comment chain is about whether or not Max attacks people just because she’s offended.”
It’s about if Max attacks people with violence because she gets very easily angry. Which is frequently because she’s offended. Which she does.
“Which blatantly isn’t true.”
It IS true. I’ve given several examples, as well as some links, in this thread.
“Dabbler looks fine though? She’s even smiling and we know she has enhanced strength.”
The fact that Dabbler is ‘built to be played with roughly’ doesnt change that Maxima jumps to violence frequently when she gets angry.
“Intel from the Council about how dangerous the artifacts she stole were.”
Sounds more like a Council threat than a national threat, since her attacks were directed at the Council, not the US.
“But not due to just simple offense or anger.”
Um… yes, Due to simple offense or anger. Simple offense or anger tends to BE the ‘far lesser cause to her effect.’
I rest my case as well.
>She caught up to Sciona
Not until an unspecified amount of time later, which is clearly far past the bridge.
>Which is frequently because she’s offended.
Yet you provided no examples of Max attacking someone just because she’s offended. Sciona was a fleeing terrorist and Dabbler wasn’t even attacked.
> The fact that Dabbler is ‘built to be played with roughly’ doesnt change that Maxima jumps to violence frequently when she gets angry.
Is that you admitting that shoving Dabbler forward doesn’t count as violence?
>Sounds more like a Council threat than a national threat, since her attacks were directed at the Council, not the US.
The Council, at the very least, is in an official partnership with the US government and is in charge of maintaining supernatural stability in the nation. (and worldwide).
An attack intended to destroy or destabilize them, as far as their intel could tell, using incredibly dangerous, magical artifacts is a national-level threat.
>Um… yes, Due to simple offense or anger.
I can’t believe Max attacked Sciona just because she was angry and for no other reason./s
“Not until an unspecified amount of time later, which is clearly far past the bridge.”
Within the very next page, during which Sciona only had time to even finish a partial sentence. Meanwhile, Maxima had time to do a quick patch job and still catch up to Sciona AND tackle her. You KNOW that Maxima is insanely fast – she could have tackled her before when she was a MUCH closer distance from Sciona already.
“Is that you admitting that shoving Dabbler forward doesn’t count as violence?”
I am not. Whether Dabbler is able to handle rough play does not change that Maxima was being violent. If I punch Mike Tyson, I’m being violent. Even though Mike Tyson would not even flinch and, given Tyson’s history with women, I would almost certainly regret it. When Sydney punched Maxima in the face, Sydney was being violent, even though Maxima is invulnerable. The only difference with Sydney is she punched Maxima accidentally because she was in a rage about the supposed bank robber that had taken her hostage, when Maxima pulled her off of him (Mr. Amorphous).
“The Council, at the very least, is in an official partnership with the US government and is in charge of maintaining supernatural stability in the nation.”
My point is that the only danger that Sciona has presented at that point has been against the Council. Multiiple times. The initial time when she was mostly beheaded. The assault on the Council Chamber by the Mannekillers. The attack on the Sigils. The kidnapping of people for Sciona’s blood magic in the Mars factory (you might have noticed they were only Council citizens, not non-Council human American citizens). The only time where a non-Council-affiliated person was harmed by Sciona, aside from when Sciona fought ARCHON (who was fighting or pursuing her first, mind you), was poor innocent, monster-besieged Coot. And one of those times, he was combined with Wyrmil, who most definitely is not a non-super American citizen. Long story short, the only real victim of Sciona’s machinations has been the Council.
The Council and ARCHON have a working treaty with each other, but that does not make Sciona a national emergency. It’s A Council emergency that ARCHON is helping the Council with.
“An attack intended to destroy or destabilize them, as far as their intel could tell, using incredibly dangerous, magical artifacts is a national-level threat.”
Deus seemed quite capable of knowing why she stole the item that she stole – she wanted to get back home and off Earth, away from the Council’s ability to kill her.
Admittedly, Deus is far smarter than the sum total of everyone at Archon, being the paragon of humanity and the world’s most perfect person, who we should all look up to as an inspiration of what we could be if only we have unlimited intellect, charm, and moxie. All praise Deus, amen.
>Within the very next page
Again; close to supersonic speeds.
A few seconds is hundreds of miles worth of distance being eaten up. I didn’t point it out earlier, but it’s a bit unrealistic that Max or Sciona has time to talk mid-flight at all.
Thankful it’s mostly just thought bubbles.
>Whether Dabbler is able to handle rough play does not change that Maxima was being violent.
A shoulder shove isn’t violent. Not by most people’s standards. You’re just really reaching with this one.
>My point is that the only danger that Sciona has presented at that point has been against the Council.
So, a national scale threat at the least. International even if she attacked all Council meetings around the world.
Like, you’re trying to frame this as if crippling or destroying the Council lowers the threat at all. It’s like saying; “she isn’t a national level threat, she’s just trying to kill off most of the US government and destroy their institutions”.
>The Council and ARCHON have a working treaty with each other, but that does not make Sciona a national emergency. It’s A Council emergency that ARCHON is helping the Council with.
The Council is an invaluable, international organization that America leans on for supernatural stability. I can’t overstate how prioritized their survival would be.
>Deus seemed quite capable of knowing why she stole the item that she stole – she wanted to get back home and off Earth, away from the Council’s ability to kill her.
1)Because Sciona sat and talked with Deus. Which no one else has had the time to for obvious reasons.
2)She actually wanted her planet’s military to come over and conquer earth. She explicitly mentions turning supers into lab rats.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-636-promises-promises/
“I didn’t point it out earlier, but it’s a bit unrealistic that Max or Sciona has time to talk mid-flight at all.”
Why would she be talking to her? She should have been TACKLING her into the sea.
“A shoulder shove isn’t violent. Not by most people’s standards. You’re just really reaching with this one.”
I’m really not. If someone grabs you by the shoulder and wrenches you over, that’s being violent. Even if not actively injuring you.
Maxima reacts physically to NON-THREATENING words, like she did with Dabbler. Like she did with Tom, post-bodyslam.
“So, a national scale threat at the least. International even if she attacked all Council meetings around the world.”
The Council is not the US, nor any other nation in the world. It’s a distinct group separate from world governments. If anything, they’re closer to a multinational corporation that is not owned by citizens of any nation. Like the Illuminati in Disney’s Gargoyles. But more expansive than that.
“Like, you’re trying to frame this as if crippling or destroying the Council lowers the threat at all.”
No, I’m framing it as ‘She was not attacking the US, she was attacking the Council, in order to steal something to leave Earth.’ There was only one single American citizen that she ever attacked at all, who was not attacking her first, and that was Coot. Poor, innocent Coot.
If you want to say she was declaring hostilities against the US by attacking and trying to murder one of its citizens, then that’s probably a better argument. :)
“The Council is an invaluable, international organization that America leans on for supernatural stability. I can’t overstate how prioritized their survival would be.”
I’m not sure how an enemy of the Council becomes a US national emergency, still. And even if I was to say it was by virtue of a destabilized Council not being good for the US, I’m not sure how it would mean that Maxima should use a plasma blast only a short distance from a bridge instead of directly tackling her, when she is CLEARLY faster than Sciona.
“1)Because Sciona sat and talked with Deus. Which no one else has had the time to for obvious reasons.”
Deus knew all about Sciona and what she wanted BEFORE Sciona ever met him. He knew even what she WANTED from the vault before she even broke into the vault. Even Sciona forgot half of what she had come there for, but Deus somehow knew.
“2)She actually wanted her planet’s military to come over and conquer earth. She explicitly mentions turning supers into lab rats.”
Yes, after Archon had repeatedly attacked her and tried to capture her to send her back to the Council for execution. Also after Dabbler had SHOT OFF HER LEG, part of her wing, and beaten her the hell up. Also after ARCHON tried to prevent her from escaping back to her home planet and away from Earth.
Now mind you… it’s possible that she would have still tried to convince her government to conquer Earth anyway. But that’s based on stuff I can’t possibly know for sure, since what we do know is Sciona’s view of Supers is based ENTIRELY on how she’s been treated BY supers. Both Archon and Vale.
We’ve already seen that the Alari are not necessarily always going to be trying to conquer, as we can see on Galytin. They didnt get off the ship in Galytin and try to take over the nation. Instead, they work with Deus, and some work FOR Deus.
So apparently some Alari know that they should side with the paragon of humanity and greatest savior of all time, who is doing what is right and just for Earth. All praise Deus, amen.
And the Alari refugees did not seem particularly mean either. Admittedly they were refugees but they didnt seem very haughty about it, like ‘HOW DARE YOU TREAT US LIKE PEASANTS, WE ARE ALARI BLAH BLAH BLAH’ Instead, they were just…. really sad and sympathetic victims.
>Why would she be talking to her?
Max never talks to Sciona. But she does verbalize midflight, which I’m assuming is just a writing gaffe. Because if she did that while going faster than the speed of sound then she should be thousands of miles out of position by the time she finished speaking.
>I’m really not. If someone grabs you by the shoulder and wrenches you over, that’s being violent.
A one-handed shove that didn’t even ruffle Dabbler’s coat.
>It’s a distinct group separate from world governments
They actively collaborate with the US government and their law enforcement branches are intertwined on an institutional level.
> I’m not sure how it would mean that Maxima should use a plasma blast only a short distance from a bridge
It means Max is almost justified to use any level of force to bring her down.
>Yes, after Archon had repeatedly attacked her and tried to capture her to send her back to the Council for execution.
1)You have no way of knowing that. She could have been planning to do that the entire time.
After all, Deus only says she wants to make a portal back home, not why.
2)Sciona mentions being in communication with her planet days ago, planning this. They had already agreed to attack.
3)Cool motive, still an attempted take over of Earth.
Especially when Max immediately gives up chasing her to try and get everyone off of the planet.
>Also after Dabbler had SHOT OFF HER LEG, part of her wing, and beaten her the hell up. Also after ARCHON tried to prevent her from escaping back to her home planet and away from Earth.
Yeah, that’ll happen when you’re a terrorist that murders lots of people.
“Max never talks to Sciona. But she does verbalize midflight, which I’m assuming is just a writing gaffe. Because if she did that while going faster than the speed of sound then she should be thousands of miles out of position by the time she finished speaking.”
What the heck does this have to do with how Maxima should have tackled instead of blasted?
“A one-handed shove that didn’t even ruffle Dabbler’s coat.”
I don’t know why you think ‘violent action’ means they have to be injured or clothes torn. Violent action means ‘any act that involves violence, force, or threat’ This involved force.
Rather than just yell at Dabbler to check out the orbs and point to the orbs, she has to lay her hands on Dabbler and yank her head forward.
“They actively collaborate with the US government and their law enforcement branches are intertwined on an institutional level.”
Actually this collaboration was not typical, as shown in the comic itself. The Council has its own specific law enforcement – the Vi. Even with ARCHON, Dabbler is considered the ATTEMPT to get them intertwined (“thin edge of the wedge, you need to handle one finger before you can handle two”). And Pixel is a unique case since she is BOTH a super -and- a werecreature.
“It means Max is almost justified to use any level of force to bring her down.”
UM…. no. You’re wrong. Absolutely wrong. A police officer is not justified to use any level of force RECKLESSLY. They are obligated to use proportional force in a way that minimizes the POTENTIAL of collateral damage.
“After all, Deus only says she wants to make a portal back home, not why.”
So the only thing Archon ever learned was that Sciona was trying to escape from a worldwide group who had already tried unsuccessfully to murder her, via an unsuccessful decapitation.
That… doesnt sound like she has a vendetta against the US or Earth – it sounds like she has a vendetta against the Council, if anyone, and she just wants to get off the planet. I might consider ARchon’s detective skill to be more like Batman or Monk, while you seem to equate Archon’s detective skill more to that of Inspector Gadget. :)
“Especially when Max immediately gives up chasing her to try and get everyone off of the planet.”
AFTER Sciona already escaped and Maxima had the squidwards to deal with, who were becoming focused on Sydney.
“Yeah, that’ll happen when you’re a terrorist that murders lots of people.”
Just curious. Can you show me who she murdered? I actually did a check on this and…. I don’t think she actually ever murdered anyone. At least not successfully.
I mean I know that she attempted to murder Wyrmil and Coot, but she failed to succeed at that. Her actions in the Vault with Deus were to inconvenience him only, not kill him. I don’t recall Sciona actually murdering anyone. I don’t even recall Sciona attempting to murder anyone except for Coot and Wyrmil, who were actually working WITH her (although Coot was working with her based on a lie).
>What the heck does this have to do with how Maxima should have tackled instead of blasted?
It doesn’t. It was a one-off sentence amidst my actual point about how fast Ma and Sciona were. So I’m not sure why you focused on it.
>I don’t know why you think ‘violent action’ means they have to be injured or clothes torn.
Or with intent to harm, which Max clearly didn’t have.
>Actually this collaboration was not typical, as shown in the comic itself. The Council has its own specific law enforcement – the Vi. Even with ARCHON, Dabbler is considered the ATTEMPT to get them intertwined
So they are intertwined.
Once your law enforcement agencies are branches of the same whole that deal with all super, and supernatural, threats with intermingling agents, then you are connected.
To deny this obvious relationship between the two institutions is pedantry.
>You’re wrong. Absolutely wrong. A police officer
Max isn’t a police officer. Archon is not civilian law enforcement.
And it is a fact that militaries do accept prioritizing taking down a substantial threat over saving civilians. Especially when there are other team members that can take care of said saving.
>So the only thing Archon ever learned was that Sciona was trying to escape from a worldwide group
They learned that she committed several terrorist attacks on Council meetings (which included trying to kill any Archon members present), succeded in killing several council members in other locations, and has been kidnapping supernatural citizens to drain them of blood.
And also killed a mundane civilian when breaking into a vault.
And were told that what she stole from the vault were extremely dangerous magical artifacts.
>who had already tried unsuccessfully to murder her
She was almost executed in the past for the crimes she presumably committed back then.
>AFTER Sciona already escaped
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-636-promises-promises/
No, that’s what she immediately says after going through the portal: “Our priority is getting everyone back.”
>I don’t even recall Sciona attempting to murder anyone except for Coot and Wyrmil, who were actually working WITH her (although Coot was working with her based on a lie).
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-487-semi-angelic-messenger/
Dude, she sent constructs to kill the council. How can you not remember this?
“It doesn’t. It was a one-off sentence amidst my actual point about how fast Ma and Sciona were. So I’m not sure why you focused on it.”
Because it’s yet another example of how incredibly fast Maxima is, and how she could have tackled Sciona before the bridge just as easily as after. More easily, in fact, since she didn’t need to do a patch job on the bridge BEFORE the bridge was damaged by herself.
“Or with intent to harm, which Max clearly didn’t have.”
Why do you always ignore certain words in the definition? Again, that’s strawmanning. Ignoring part of my argument to make it easier to argue against it. Use the actual words presented in the definition, not ‘some’ of the words while ignoring others. I literally gave you the full definition, and you intentionally only used part of it in order to be able to refute it, when if you used the entire definition, you can’t refute it.
Intent to harm, injure, FORCE, or threat. She was FORCING.
“So they are intertwined.”
No. If they were intertwined already, then Dabbler would not be an ‘experiment in trying to collaborate.’ Because they’d already BE intertwined. They aren’t.
“Once your law enforcement agencies are branches of the same whole that deal with all super, and supernatural, threats with intermingling agents, then you are connected.”
IF the KGB and the CIA have joint operation to capture a terrorist, the two agencies are NOT INTERTWINED.
To use corporate/contract law as an example (which also applies to government contracts btw)
If two companies have a joint venture, rather than a merger, then they are not intertwined.
Joint Venture = not intertwined. A limited contract for a very specific purpose.
Merger = intertwined, a broad combination of both companies, to the point that they are now one company.
“Max isn’t a police officer. Archon is not civilian law enforcement.”
Yes, she is. She even describes herself as one. It’s even one of her few worries about Sydney becoming part of ARCHON.
Maxima: “If I have any reservations, it’s about the authority that comes with the badge.”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-115-reservations-for-two/
(Panel 3)
Arianna also explains it VERY verbosely about what ARC-SWAT is.
They. Are. There. To. Police. Supers.
Arianna: “Before you do sign this Sydney, it’s important that you understand a few things. One, THIS IS A MILITARY POLICE FORCE, AND MAXIMA WILL BE YOUR COMMANDING OFFICER.”
And Arianna makes a direct comparison between Archon and regular police.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-127-a-cautionary-clause/
(Panels 1 and 2)
She also does so AGAIN during the Press conference for ALL ARCHON agents when she describes what ARCHON is.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-144-pr-hopscotch/
(panel 3)
Arianna: “ARCHON IS A FEDERAL MILITARY POLICE FORCE, SOMETHING AMERICA HAS NEVER HAD BEFORE.”
And Suzie News even questions this asking why this does not violate Posse Comitatus (the reasoning being the same as why the Coast Guard does not – which is also a type of military police force that protects the area AROUND the US.
I mean the comic literally states, WORD FOR WORD, something you’re saying is not true here. I don’t see how you can possibly argue with that. There’s no wiggle room here unless you again try to change the sentence to create a strawman argument, rather than the actual facts presented.
“Archon is not civilian law enforcement.”
They don’t have to be. They’re a MILITARY police force which still deals with civilians, not military. They go into detail on why this does not violate posse comitatus. Remember? In fact, the only reason why they were not made into a civilian police force instead of a military police force that deals with civilians (non Archon supers like Vehemence or Vektor or Lee Press-On Nails or Concretia are still civilians, not military) is because they thought that ARCHON members would follow orders more readily if they were given by military commanders than civilian commanders. The job, however, is the SAME.
I’m going to continue this in a second post so I can do more links.
“They learned that she committed several terrorist attacks on Council meetings (which included trying to kill any Archon members present), succeded in killing several council members in other locations, and has been kidnapping supernatural citizens to drain them of blood.”
1) She was attacking sigils, and you have nothing to show any PEOPLE were killed. If you do, show me the link that shows ANYONE WAS KILLED. All that your link shows was two other sigils were attacked – one sigil continued to function at lower power, and the other sigil was completely destroyed. There was NOTHING to say anyone died except in your headcanon.
2) She did NOT succeed in killing ANY council members whatsoever. Again, show me a link where this happens.
3) Kidnapping to use blood is not killing. They seem to be quite alive afterwards when Pixel and the others are freed (ie, the drow and others).
“2) And also killed a mundane civilian when breaking into a vault.”
Okay now I’m pretty sure that you don’t read my entire post. I mean it’s understandable since there’s SO MUCH being written, but you’re still not reading my posts in order to sy this.
1) I specifically mentioned that the only civilian that she attempted to kill was poor Coot. It’s literally the only example at all of Sciona doing anything attempted-ly murderous towards anyone outside of Council members.
2) That one person who she tried to kill, Coot, was in a partnership with her, albeit under false pretenses, because he also wanted to kill monsters (who he blames for killing his family). Coot is probably the most innocent person in that entire arc, ironically, despite being portrayed as a terrible individual. I’ve seen no evidence that he’s terrible, just crude. But he was someone who wanted to kill Council members as well. :)
Also Maxima had no idea at that point in time that Coot was an innocent civilian, and by the time she did find out that, Coot was ALIVE, rather than dead (thanks to merging with Wyrmil).
“And were told that what she stole from the vault were extremely dangerous magical artifacts.”
Yes – objects which were to be used to let her ESCAPE EARTH. Which Deus was able to discern quite easily, but apparently ARCHON could not.
Again to be fair, Deus is far more intelligent than anyone in Archon, as the world’s most magnificent man, paragon of virtue and humanity, potential savior of us all, all praise Deus amen.
“She was almost executed in the past for the crimes she presumably committed back then.”
You’re literally giving reasons why she’s a victim instead of a villain. Which is funny because she IS a villain – primarily against the Council – but your arguments can be used to protect her from that sort of allegation instead. ‘Presumably’ committed. The Council does not give a trial. They respond in a very feudal and authoritarian fashion, according to both Sciona and the Council itself.
In fact, the only thing they say about Sciona is ”
There is someone… but we cut her head off. Or… most of her head.” Nothing about what her crime was. Nothing about who her crime was directed at, if she even committed a crime at all outside of ‘Being an Alari’ Seems easy enough to just say she was guilty of ‘Being on Earth while Alari’ (a little play on the term ‘Driving while black’).
In fact, the only evidence of any crimes which we’ve seen at all is that the Council ‘aggressively polices their own’ to prevent exposure, not to protect the US or the world, to a point that even some council members think is not warranted and overly brutal.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-456-supernatural-police-brutality/
(see panels 7 and 8)
Count Ingsol: “Many of the groups here should be inherently at odds with each other. By necessity, the Council maintains an inviolable peace. The moment ANY strife happens BETWEEN GROUPS THREATENS TO EXPOSE US, the council reacts with incisive…. troubleshooting.”
IE, they murder the hell out of anyone who risks breaching the veil, regardless of if it’s an attack on humans, an attack on another group within the Council, or being very sloppy in hiding the existence of the Council from the world.
“https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-487-semi-angelic-messenger/
Dude, she sent constructs to kill the council. How can you not remember this?”
She literally is told by her vampire cohort, Zvonamir, that Sciona KNEW they would likely fail, and it was just sending fodder as a distraction while she built her super mannekiller and prepared her plan to escape Earth.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-489-two-liter-minimum/
(see panels 2 and 6)
How did you forget THAT?
She literally realized that it was unlikely that the mannequins would kill anyone. She just was unaware at how UTTERLY huge the failure would be. She knew about supers being there. She knew about mages and many other supernatural types being there, and her main defense for the mannequins was anti-magic defenses.
>She literally is told by her vampire cohort, Zvonamir, that Sciona KNEW they would likely fail
Yeah, so uh, you’re just lying now?
Sciona says no such thing. She’s just surprised they failed. And the vampire only says that they knew the mannequins would be outnumbered.
So, yeah, Sciona was actually trying to kill them when her constructs threw a grenade filled with silver shrapnel at them.
>She was attacking sigils, and you have nothing to show any PEOPLE were killed. If you do, show me the link that shows ANYONE WAS KILLED. All that your link shows was two other sigils were attacked – one sigil continued to function at lower power, and the other sigil was completely destroyed. There was NOTHING to say anyone died except in your headcanon.
Yeah, I think you need to cool off when you legitimately think that when place filled with people is “destroyed” means that no one died.
Especially considering how those things blow up when magic was used on them.
> One, THIS IS A MILITARY POLICE FORCE, AND MAXIMA WILL BE YOUR COMMANDING OFFICER.”
And you either don’t know that a military police force, when engaging a military/non-civilian level threat like Sciona, they stop playing by regular police rules.
Well, either that or you’re lying.
“Yeah, so uh, you’re just lying now?”
Duff, until now, you’ve been arguing respectfully. Now you’re beginning to get insulting, accusing me of lying just because I’m showing that you’re wrong. I’m not lying. You’re being disingenuous by saying that I am.
“Sciona says no such thing. She’s just surprised they failed. And the vampire only says that they knew the mannequins would be outnumbered.”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-489-two-liter-minimum/
Sciona: “The husks’ are just fodder though.”
Fodder = short for cannon fodder. Slang that means ‘soldiers regarded or treated as expendable in battle. Originated in World War 1, where soldiers were sent into battle as high casualties for little gain (in this case, just to stall the Council and keep them off track)
How you take this and say I’m lying is beyond me. Or you might just not understand what ‘fodder’ meant, which is possible and understandable.
“So, yeah, Sciona was actually trying to kill them when her constructs threw a grenade filled with silver shrapnel at them.”
1) Again, it was meant as a way to distract the Council and slow them down. The mannequins were fodder. Sciona explicitly describes them as such. If they MANAGED to kill anyone, so much the better, but it wasnt the primary objective of using them. Even when ARCHON directly attacks Sciona’s HQ, her main goal in using the mannequins was to slow Archon down.
2) The Council are the people who tried to murder Sciona, and they’re the only ones she has made any attempt to kill at all without first being attacked in a particular battle, aside from Coot. Mainly because the Council had already TRIED to kill her.
“Yeah, I think you need to cool off when you legitimately think that when place filled with people is “destroyed” means that no one died.”
1) I’m cooled down. You’re the one accusing others of lying and trying to make this personal. :) Just because my arguments are effective doesn’t mean I’m enraged or something. If you think I’m enraged because I’m using capitalization, no, I’m not. I use capitalization to stress certain words, since text is not an emotive medium.
2) You literally have nothing to show that anyone died. Please, if you do, show me the link. Then you can accuse me of lying if you show me a link showing that someone died or showing that someone says someone died. Go on, I’ll wait.
“Especially considering how those things blow up when magic was used on them.”
Again,doesnt show that anyone died. In fact, how would they know what happened to the second sigil if the fae died? If you say ‘there were survivors’ then how would you know how many survivors there were? You’re making guesses based on stuff that you have no reason to know. I’m the one NOT making assumptions.
If anything, the trope is ‘if you don’t see a body, they’re not dead.’ But even more so here. If you don’t hear anyone even SAY anyone is dead, then they’re not dead. We did not hear anyone say anyone had died. At all. Just that the sigil was destroyed.
Also, the mannequin was set to explode because Master Gault tried to magically scan it to get some clues.
“And you either don’t know that a military police force, when engaging a military/non-civilian level threat like Sciona, they stop playing by regular police rules.”
Okay you are being VERY disingenuous now, because you’re not even responding to what I had said in the post. You said that Archon is not a civilian police force. So I pointed out that she is a military police force designed to operate in civilian areas. Much like the Coast Guard can do.
When you’re on US soil, the military police force has to abide by certain rules. It’s not ‘all bets are off.’ When the Coast Guard finds a drug boat in civilian waters, they don’t just blow up the boat. They are STILL BOUND BY THE CONSTITUTION. They perform an arrest.
“Well, either that or you’re lying.”
Do you understand what lying means? It doesnt mean ‘when someone says you’re wrong.’
You are not ‘fact.’ Most of the time you don’t even give the same level of citation that I give.
It’s like if we had a court case, and I present evidence as Exhibit A as a gun supposedly used in a crime, and you stand up and yell “You’re lying!”
The judge would say ‘uhhh what is she lying about? She presented evidence. Prove that the evidence is irrelevant or sit down.’
I’m not lying. I’m showing evidence that you don’t like because it’s proving my point.
>Sciona: “The husks’ are just fodder though.”
I have to ask you sincerely;
What do you think is more likely?
A)All the mannequins would have suddenly stopped attacking after a council member was knocked down after stabbing and shooting them.
Or
B)You’re taking the word “fodder” too literally and that the lethal ammunition we see, many of which designed to kill supernatural beings, were being used for what it looked like; killing people.
>Again,doesnt show that anyone died. In fact, how would they know what happened to the second sigil if the fae died?
Several ways. Most obvious being scrying spells.
Second most obvious is that the valkyrie who relayed the news flew over.
>If they MANAGED to kill anyone, so much the better, but it wasnt the primary objective of using them.
It’s still attempted murder to shoot at someone, and a genuine attempt on their life, even if you think they’ll likely dodge in time.
Seriously, there’s playing devils advocate and then there’s just denying what happened on screen.
>You said that Archon is not a civilian police force. So I pointed out that she is a military police force designed to operate in civilian areas.
Yes, which makes them much different from the purely civilian kind.
>When you’re on US soil, the military police force has to abide by certain rules. It’s not ‘all bets are off.’
It is depending on the threat level and Sciona was a terrorist in possession of and with ample reason to use some of the most dangerous magical artifacts on the planet.
>You are not ‘fact.’ Most of the time you don’t even give the same level of citation that I give.
Besides comic strips? You don’t cite your sources much either.
I’m starting to get bored with this and wondering what the point is supposed to be. I liked Sidney learning stuff but she’s turning hypercompetent, Maxima was already hypercompetant, Dabbler defines hypercompetant, and I’m wondering if I should just go and binge all of this some time in the future. I liked the callback to dabbler’s lesson about fiends and whatever, but I’m wondering when or if it will matter to the over all story. This is starting to feel like Sinefeld, and I can’t stand Sinefeld. I need some stakes, damn it.
Good training makes you “hypercompetent” at your job.
These are increadably powerful people by the universe’s standards. With significent training and/or experience.
And I wouldn’t say Syd is turning hypercompetent. She’s turning competent, and has always been powerful and creative. In a world with magic, and magic-adjacent superpowers, creative is *terrifying*.
> He’s a white nationalist and white identarian, a neo-nazi, and a noted antisemitic conspiracy theorist. IE, he’s a very evil man.
> It still doesn’t make it ‘right’ to attack without due cause.
The way you described him sounds like due cause to me.
If someone is talking about literally wanting you dead, and has followers who have very obviously used his words as inspiration for violence and murder before, does it matter that he’s “just talking”? Look up “Stochastic Terrorism” for how the leaders of this avoid legal culpability while very clearly causing deaths.
Regarding your thoughts on optics, that has been shown to not work. Repeatedly. If you’re as smart as you claim then I shouldn’t need to list examples.
The only thing that has been show to stop Nazis from killing people has been to aggressively oppose them at every turn.
They spout their evil ideas (your words): You stop them talking, any means at your disposal.
It’s a simple matter of self-defence. Unless you’re arguing that you don’t have the right to defend yourself from someone pointing a loaded gun at you, just because they haven’t pulled the trigger yet?
What someone is thinking is not due cause for violence.
What someone is doing definitely can be.
Someone’s affiliation with a splinter group or philosophy, even one that advocates crime, is not cause for violence.
Someone’s participation in or conspiracy to commit specific crimes, definitely can be.
There’s a line that has to be crossed, and “Being” a an evil white supremacist neo-nazi, conspiracy theorist asshole does not cross it. He can’t cross that line without taking some specific action.
So we need to wait for the Nazis to attack before stopping them?
That means that they win.
Uh huh. Good luck forming the thought police and claiming you’re trying to fight totalitarianism. I’m sure you’ll be able to find three or four people who take you seriously.
Careful Bear, she’ll call you a Nazi too. :)
Enough humans eat lamb, caviar and chicken eggs to qualify as “baby eater” to some alien races.
Caviar and chicken eggs are unfertilized when they’re meant to be eaten, and therefore not babies, but you’re dead-on about lamb. :)
How do you know, they are, unfertilized!?
Because thats just how eggs meant for consumption are sold. Its why, when you crack open an egg there isnt a fetal chick in there. I actually wanted to make sure that I was correct so I googled and … yes, chicken eggs and caviar snd other eggs meant for consumption are NOT fertilized.
Oh god. Another episode of Max being a hypocritical idiot.
I guess personal space rules only apply when its Max’s personal space we talk about.
Invading others isnt a problem.
Whats the different you say? that Max is strong enough to enforce it?
Then i guess the lesson here becomes, if your strong enough its alright to touch others as you please.
Since when has Max ever been really anal about personal space rules?
Aside from not liking being groped by Dabbler, she’s a very physically affectionate person. Notably with our MC, Sydney.
The important part of Super- Human, is Human!
Something tells me Max is going to crack his skull very VERY slowly, also cute what Syd is doing in the background. XD
Syd has read enough hentai
That last panel immidiately made me think of Fry in Futurama: https://youtu.be/ft23OqcldqY?t=11
Note: This has likely been pointed out elsewhere, but the comments for this strip exploded into some kind of back and forth between two posters, and I’m not digging through ALL of that just to see if someone beat me to this. @_@
“fiend is not the equivalent of baby eater”
it kinda is
For a woman so enthusiastic about Dabbler adapting to Earth Culture, Maxima sure is quick to force her opinions onto literal otherworldly beings.
Panels 4 to 9 remain my favorite for showing how much Maxima is the second-most awesome, right after Sydney. Especially panel no. 6–that encapsulates her depth, showing her love, beliefs, and honor in one sentence.