Grrl Power #862 – Pew and pew again
When Peggy says “the course changes” she just means that most of the pop-up targets have either a civvie or bad guy option. The course doesn’t rearrange itself. No Shi’ar tech holo-suite danger room for Arc-SWAT quite yet.
I think the most impressive thing about Sydney’s time in the course today (this literally took all day, far more than the seven tries show on this page. It’s like 9:30 PM now) is that she did manage to radically improve her time without actually shooting herself in the leg. Peggy’s been keeping a real close eye on Sydney’s trigger discipline all day.
Sydney’s actually still mostly afraid of guns, which is part of the reason she’s so slow. If anything, she’s too good with trigger discipline. She had been trying to make up a little time with her reloads, which led to the sequence in the middle of the page there, and that wasn’t the only time she messed up a reload because she was rushing.
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Is that a load of scratches on her arms? I can only imagine …
I think that’s soot from all the ammo she’s been using. Yes, she’s been kept on the course that long.
I expected her to reach into the sandbag with the light hook to get the magazine, thus disqualifying herself.
Real talk, she wasn’t gonna pass that run anyways – even if everything else went perfectly and she came in under 4 minutes; Peggy would have told her again, but don’t fumble the magazine.
No, that’s bullshit. I know the military isn’t about fair, but when the rules have been laid out (time under this mark, no civilians killed) then if Peggy had failed her for losing a clip although she still passed the course under the rules, I think Sydney would have gone on strike.
Dropping the magazne shouldn’t disqualify her, IF she finished the course anyway. After all, one ofl tthe most common archaeological finds on battlefields is dropped ammo. However, that might have been her last loaded mag, which would make finishing impossible!
More importantly what if she is only given one reload and there are more enemies than there are bullets in the gun? Impossible would be standard fare without the reload. Thus making the course a two for one scenario.
why would that disqualify her. Its not like in this situation her powers aren’t still available to her in a real scenario. Its like asking a stretcher not to extend their arm down to retrieve dropped ammunition because we’re playing a “no powers” game.
Although I doubt the light hook has a narrow enough point to grab it there without folding around and having to knock all the sandbags out of the way. Not like it has a sticky trip or a narrowing setting or morphing the tip into a beak or something.
Maybe those are later upgrades? Extra thin “cable”, grabby bit on the end, different colours , sticky bit, magnetic bit, all helpful in at least 1 way…
Because the ENTIRE POINT of running this course is to assess competency with the gun, maneuvering, situational awareness, and doing it quickly and efficiently within those parameters. If this was an assessment of her powers and how she uses them, I’m pretty certain the timer would be shorter, and she might not even have a gun on her for the test.
yes, but this was a utility power not a combat power, of which her lack of access to would denote a lack of access to using a gun as well. (Not being able to use her hands). Measuring skill with a limitation isn’t measuring skill, its playing.
Like asking a speedster to slow down, a stretcher not to stretch, a telekinetic/magnekinetic not to levitate the guns at multiple targets. I saw someone arguing Maxima would have to reduce her speed to a human level to run the course…fairness…isn’t an accurate measure of skill and capability in a combat scenario.
Honestly in the long run measuring supers with the same metrics as a regular human is like judging how well a monkey climbs a tree like a fish by tying its hands and feet together so its fair to the fish.
-even saying so a gun trial still makes sense with Sydney seeing as how most of her powers are utility powers while her one combat power has heavy collateral damage risks in a situation with people and property around you don’t want on fire or blown up.
*Captain Armageddon still needs a gun so he doesn’t vaporize the bank tellers and hostages* sort of scenario
I’d say the lighthook can be a combat power, and the shield definitely is, especially when combined with the fly ball. She even used the lighthook and shield as combat powers already (both during the restaurant rumble, though she didn’t use the shield to its full potential – possibly in part because they were trying to limit casualties.)
That said, the PPO is very limited utility outside of combat and the firing range. (Well, at least so far. At some point, if she gets tha super-underpowered upgrade that lets her make the PPO non-destructive, and then OMG.)
the whole point of running with out powers its so you can accurately gauge the boot. ie properly trained human can do it in this time you have to beat this time without powers… its just proving that you can do it and your properly trained. if you blow though the course because say your a speedster did you pass it because you actually were that good or just because your a speedster 4 mins is a lifetime.
speedster, because they are that good, because their powers make them that good and the speedster will have that power in the field in real deadly combat situations they won’t NOT be using their power.
Sydney can be justified as her one offensive power is overkill and even creative with her utility and defense powers is not as effective as a gun in a tight situation.
the point still stands, zero powers in training isn’t training them its playing if realistically their powers would give them an edge in the scenario.
Now it can be justified as reflex and aiming and trigger discipline. But again, applies to those like Sydney, not too a speedster. If Maxima can blast through the course in half a second to disarm every combatant and save the civilian hostages, then that is what would be expected in the field, not for her to tie lead boots to her feet to play at being like a regular human to be fair.
Unnecessary limitations are for play time, not serious combat.
It isn’t training Syd for combat it’s training Syd for the ability to be trained. Focusing, really listening, really watching, taking it seriously, are all skills that are hard for Sydney, as shown by the cupcakes and the dive rolls. Learning how to learn is a real thing.
I get that, the string of discussion here is about the idea that using her light hook, thus any super using their powers, in the course would disqualify them.
\quote the point still stands, zero powers in training isn’t training them its playing if realistically their powers would give them an edge in the scenario.\unquote
The fact that there is a situation that having done that activity won’t help, does not imply that there is no benefit. That point only stands if that activity doesn’t help any situation.
I wonder how many supers can think and reason at super-speed? This is what’s being tested here. The time limit is not for physical testing (although for non-supers it does seem like a workout stress test) but test how quickly the subject can correctly evaluate the risks and responses.
We can’t build the Run for supers since everyone needs to be evaluated against a fixed standard. So — until we learn how to rationally account for super-powers — we are forced to the Lowest Common Denominator.
That’s something Sydney really needs to learn. She has some extremely dangerous superweapons in her orbs, but SHE’s not super herself. Her tendency to goof off and not take situations seriously until she’s forced to makes her potentially very dangerous, not only to her opponents, but also to her team and innocent bystanders. By training her like this, she is forced to take things seriously and that’s perhaps the hardest thing (and the most important) for her to learn.
\quote Measuring skill with a limitation isn’t measuring skill, its playing.\unquote
No, it very much {\sl is} measuring skill. It’s not about fairness, it’s about understanding the abilities of the person under certain restrictions. It’s a matter of preparedness. Naturally, it’s important to judge the entire abilities of the person. Part of that means judging that person’s abilities together. Another part of that is judging each ability separately.
Furthermore, it’s about improving the ability. The improvement of component abilities aids the improvement of composite abilities. When it comes time to really use the abilities, obviously the person should have his whole repertoire available to him. Sometimes, though, it’s better to complete whatever the goal is without using some component abilities. For this, you should now understand, it’s beneficial to be able to do something using only these or only those abilities.
\quote Practise yourself, for heaven’s sake, in little things; and thence proceed to greater.\author Epictetus (Discourses)
did you read further down the discussion before responding to this specific post?
I already consented to those points, and was specifically referring to the argument that relates not only to Sidney but to ALL supers with abilities that would give them an edge, such as the implication Maxima would have reduced her speed to human levels on the course for no clear reason other than to be “fair to the regular humans* which makes no sense.
specifically it was the idea Sidney for some reason couldn’t use her lighthook to retrieve a dropped magazine, then others stating other supers wouldn’t be allowed to use enhanced speed disqualifying them, when such skills being used disqualifying them here makes no sense.
\quote I already consented to those points, and was specifically referring to the argument that relates not only to Sidney but to ALL supers with abilities that would give them an edge … for no clear reason other than to be “fair to the regular humans* which makes no sense.\unquote
My condolences. Here’s something I don’t understand: if you assented to the point that training component abilities is helpful, why do you claim that there’s no clear reason other than fairness? An astute reader might notice that my comment 851076 was not about fairness. Was your reply comment 851084 misaddressed? Furthermore, an astute reader might notice that my comment 851076 was in response to, and countering, the idea that understanding a component cannot aid understanding the composite. About your claim that my comment 851076 was redundant among the comments that were extant at the time that my comment 851076 was submitted, and were in the comment hierarchy rooted at the comment to which my comment 851076 was a reply: I have noticed only ideas which differed from an idea in my comment 851076. Tgape’s comment 851045 had the idea that the component abilities may be, in some situations, useful {\sl per se} ; darkseer’s comment 851052 had an idea that that activity was to establish a control against which to compare progress; gorblimey’s comment 851054 had an idea that the ability measured is an ability that can be complete {\sl per se} in the field; aboo’s comment 851064 had an idea that that activity was to establish serious training. None of these comments had the idea that improving a component aids improving a composite with that component.
Ok not counting Arcade, how many times has Storm been functionally de-powered. Granted she was still a bad ass when she was mentally reverted to childhood.
And lets not get into Thor who was I believe introduced empowered,
Scott (mental Block, having a telekinetic repress his power, being actually de-powered, being mind raped into being de-powered, having his power run away causing him to self mentaly de-power, having his glasses broken forcing him to bind his sight.
Spiderman (not even counting the time he was actually doc Oct) having his blood removed, having his spider sences blocked, Venom,
Captain Marvel you can add Rouge, being stipped of her powers as Binary, Serisouly her running into the Girrlverse version of Rouge could end up with her orbs being stolen
Granted (Grins) (no its good news)
The fact that some in-universe fictional superheroes can lose their powers When The Plot Demands™ is NOT in ANY WAY a valid argument for training without one’s powers. As far as the characters inside the comic are concerned, they’re in real life.
Furthermore, there has been no indicator of the kind of arbitrary, universal (and therefore unrealistic) “power nullified”, so training without their powers is flat-out impossible for many supers.
Yes, there is no Universal power nullifier, that just means each one ha to be customized to the individual, as in the case all of Steven Thomas‘s examples
What are they going to do if they run into a villain who’s power is neutralizing powers?
“a villain who’s power is neutralizing powers”
That’s essentially what Death Toll was, or at least is the kind of power neutralizer that Dave is likely to make. He doesn’t simply turn off their powers, but he can counter all of them.
that wasn’t a power neutralizer (in the power set terms basis) that was an Antithesis power, countering not stopping. It was also implied this applied to ALL threats used against him not just powers. So shooting him could result in a magnetic forcefield or something. His problem was a point of diminishing returns/limited countering. They basically had to throw too many different threats at him at once so his automatic defenses couldn’t keep up. Which one considers a wide variety of powers makes sense his body couldn’t counter every threat at once like trying to counter fire, electricity, and ice all at the same time threw his body out of wack with no single defense able to stop everything coming through.
which lands Death Toll at the C or B rank for Antithesis powers honestly, Amazo he was not.
Anything that can either temporarily or permanently (for the comic book meaning of “permanently”) disable possibly Nth tech items isn’t going to be stopped by a pistol. Anything that prevents Sydney from using her orbs, such as Sciona grabbing her hands, isn’t going to allow Sydney to use a pistol.
Putting Sydney through these paces serves three practical and valid purposes:
1) It’s part of the general training program and no military unit is going to customize their training for each individual;
2) It works towards that general goal of breaking a recruit down in order to rebuild them as a soldier;
3) It teaches situational awareness and trigger control, which might help Sydney react to the battlefield more swiftly, and possibly avoid murdering a civilian.
4) Guns are scary, orbs are less scary. But sometimes when one is being scary with a gun, one encounters a situation where one has to actually use it.
There’s also the factor that they will likely give Sydney a tranq gun of some sort at some point for when she needs to quickly remove more vulnerable (such as baseline human minions, or a super who has human level defense but is a threat due to other powers) combatants with less than lethal means. The PPO is a very lethal weapon with high potential for collateral damage, and while the light hook *can* be sorta used to tie up an opponent or three, it is really inefficient and for some combatants restricting their movement does not stop them from being a threat; all her other orbs are either utility functions like defense or maneuverability, or unknown function, meaning that her only real combat options are zero offense, misapplied utility, and a blaster that could hypothetically qualify as a WMD depending on how it’s used, meaning any fight would instantly go from zero to kill.
TL;DR, giving her a weapon that can incapacitate a foe with human level defense without obliterating them is certainly a good idea, said weapon is likely to be some kind of tranq gun or possibly a scifi equivalent, and if they’re going to give her such a weapon it is a very good idea to train her on real guns first so she treats it like a real gun when she has it. She might also be given a real gun for some reason, but honestly I doubt it.
Who is “rouge?” Someone who wears a lot of makeup? I do believe you were referring to ROGUE.
Isn’t Rouge aka Scarlet the Red that heroine who’s primary power is embarrassing supers so much they lose all of their powers? She’s like, an entire textbook in this discussion on her own.
Yeah, yeah, I know where the door is. I’m going. Geez, tough room.
More seriously, it was probably just a phone autoincorrect.
Nah, its an english thing where people don’t know how to write things they pronounce.
I’ve been in lots of d&d discussion where people put rouge instead of rogue. One of the disadvantages of the language.
That’s because both rouge and rogue are borrow words, rouge is French for red, Rogue is also French for ?fish eggs? WTF? how did we get from fish eggs to person of low morals? I do not understand language despite using it professionally in my day job.
From what I can tell ‘rogue’ has nothing to due with the French word for fish eggs, it traces back to ‘roger’ which was street speak for kind of a scammy beggar which is turn comes directly from the Latin ‘rogare’ meaning “to ask”.
It might also trace back to the Celtic ‘rog’ meaning “haughty” but that lineage seems more tenuous to me.
Souce: OED
It’s also possibly from middle french adjective “rogue,” meaning arrogant. I usually use the variant that feels most natural to me when trying to understand something. Objectively, it may be wrong; subjectively, it’s right.
But I mean, standard English rules of spelling/pronunciation are that a G followed by an E is a soft G, where a G followed by a UE (or anything else except an I) is a hard G. I’d say it’s a problem of people/education, not of the language.
Not that we don’t have lots of oddities and exceptions, but they’re not erring by using the standard in the case of an exception, they’re failing to use the standard.
And I guess it’s just one of those super commonly mixed up words like it’s/its, then/than (my personal pet peeve), their/there, you’re/your… Except rogue/rouge don’t actually sound remotely the same when spoken, haha.
ROUGE
ROGUE
Oops… When one finger wants to jump the queue. Happens all the time with mine.
Same with me and chacne, or heck, ‘Guesticus’ (sometimes, ‘hunter-pecker’ is the better typing method, rather than ‘epileptic-octopus’ :P )
If there are ways to disable her powers, it’s good if she doesn’t need to rely on them. Even Maxima may need to max out her defense power for some reason as far as it will go, and run around on foot at normal human speed.
We KNOW that her orbs require touch to work. We also know that she has a ‘pretty solid’ forcefiled that can protech er against anything up to a nuke or that range currently…
But there may be situations where she can’t use the shield. We’ve only seen it round, and it seems to be ‘neutral’ with regards to touch. If she had to go into a narrow tunnel or enclosed space with lots of delicate items she might not be able to use her shield.
IF she can’t rely on her shield orb to protech herself she may need to put on protective gear that could potentially limit her use of the other orbs also.
Sydney appears to be perfectly capable of walking down a street with her force field on and not being stopped from moving by a mailbox or a fire hydrant. It’s not exactly canon, but the inference is that the shield changes shape on the fly in crowded/cluttered areas to prevent itself from being put on The List™.
Because how useful is a force field when it’ll stop you from walking down a cobblestone street just because one of the cobbles is 2″ higher than the others?
There may be a simpler way to disempower and imprison Sydney. How much pressure can Sydney’s balls exert?, psychokinetically. Grab him by the balls! If they’re held in a closed locked container that can withstand that sort of pressure, Sydney’s inability to touch his balls would preclude his using them; his attachment to them precluding escape.
“If [Sydney] had to go into a narrow tunnel or enclosed space with lots of delicate items she might not be able to use her shield.” – Anthony_Lion
Or, more likely, if the circumstances demand that two other Orbs are essential, thus not leaving a hand free for the Shield. Examples could include combinations of carrying a heavy load (in the Lighthook), through an area with no breathable atmosphere (requiring Air), off the ground (with Flight), and/or while needing to see through magical disguises (with Truesight).
Even at max defense, Maxima might still have considerable strength compared to a regular human. Most supers don’t seem to be capable of really turning off their powers, or their existence as supers tends to give them ideal, figures that are also very fit, so the fitness alone likely assists them greatly.
Sydney has none of that.
BUT! I do agree that in showing the can do this course at a mundane level, they DO need courses and tests which utilise her orbs so she gains experience putting her powers to use in combat situations. I suspect those tests and exercises likely need to be tailor made for each member with powers.
the course changes, yeah, but doesn’t someone have to manually replace the boards seeing as this is a live ammo run? and doing so without Sydney seeing how they are being rearranged so has to go stand in the broom closet/outside the course door…yeah this definitely took all day.
while not having the same weight, I’d think a laser tag run might have been a better starting point for her, clear that, then move up to live ammo runs.
If you look carefully, you can actually see the bullet holes and/or damage from the previous couple of rounds in those first few panels. No doubt the boards need replacing once in a while and they might have replaced or field repaired the two that lost their heads to Seneca’s run, but its easily possible that with Sydney’s lighter arms she was able to go all day on this course.
There is usually two cut-outs at each spot (okay, maybe not every spot), and all that happens is the course supervisor pushes either button B or button C (or it’s a random computer program doing it)
The amusing question now is thus: how many times in a row did she have to prove sub 4 min before Peggy was satisfied.
Two in a row??
Without shooting civilians.
She’s soulbound to a device that can probably blow a hole through the planet and she’s afraid of guns? Wild, man.
She’s not exactly comfortable with the PPO either, given that her concern wasn’t so much actually having PTSD so much as if she were to have an episode for any reason, the PPO is in reach at literally all times; having a nightmare, and lashing out by grabbing and firing off the PPO would be devastating to all around her.
Also, guns hurt to fire – they’re loud, recoil has kick, heavy in both mass and in trigger weight, etc.
As we saw at the press release/range demonstration, the PPO requires more effort to use than the other orbs. Since this was literally years before Sydney’s fear of inadvertently blasting off the PPO due to a nightmare came up, it must be considered that the author may have had this mini-plotline in mind from the start.
Years RL time, but only a couple of months comic time.
You and Pander both need to learn how to extract context from text. Something a lawyer should be able to do without difficulty, by the way.
The clear context was the author possibly holding this plot line in his head/notes for years before finally getting to demonstrate further possible reasons why the PPO is harder to use than the other orbs.
The amount of time that passed in the story is irrelevant and not any part of this discussion.
I’m a bit bewildered by your post, Oberon. You stated something which was factually inaccurate – that Sydney hs been worried about the PPO for years. This is simply not possible, because she has not HAD the PPO for years – she’s had it for months – something both I and Opus have explained. it was not ‘years of Sydney’s fear of inadvertently blasting off the PPO.’
This literally has nothing to do with context – you made a mistake IN context, and did not relay it remotely well in your sentence whatsoever, because you were using Sydney (who is in comic book time) as the subject matter in that sentence, not DaveB (who is in real life time).
It’s not a lawyer skill to need to decipher when someone has bad sentence structure and uses the wrong subject matter :)
I’m especially bewildered why you’d have tried to correct Opus, who outright stated RL time and comic time when you tried (incorrectly) to ‘school’ him (and me).
No, I did not. I referenced years, and you decided in your own mind that I was referring to comic time when the clear context of my reference to the author and how long he had possibly had the bit of story about Sydney fearing using the PPO during a nightmare or whatever should have indicated to any person that I was speaking about real time.
And again, a lawyer should not have either made this error, nor failed to recognize it once it was pointed out to them.
More like months, not years. Remember all this is only about 3-4 months after she was let onto the team (1 month and a couple of days from Sydney’s perspective),and maybe a few more months since she first GOT the orbs in the Florida Keys in the first place.
I have no problem flying on a plane, but have a fear of heights. Go figure.
Same.
And I’m terrified of flying but heights are ok. (mind you I am an aircraft mechanic)
Makes perfect sense to me. Being on a plane, even looking out the window, doesn’t have the same visceral, sphincter-clenching feeling as does looking over a precipice at a long drop from close range.
Then how do you explain me?
Only time I am even remotely scared of heights is if I am climbing myself. Then I tend te be between very scared and terrified, even if its only a 7 step ladder.
Put me on the rim of a Skyscrapers roof, and if theres a wall to elan on to look out further, I will do so.
Sigh…
how does one climb oneself?
The same way one pulls oneself up by ones bootstraps.
It’s pretty easy to climb oneself if you have the right temporal powers, or you have something going on like Harem or Yaaaaaaaay Newfriend (from Questionable Content.) Not the teleporty bit, the multi-corporeal bit (as far as we know, Yay can’t teleport.)
I personally have no fear of heights if I’m just climbing myself, but to be fair I’m not very tall. Put me on the top floor of a skyscraper, and even if I can’t see out, I’ll be rather terrified.
As far as we hope Yay can’t teleport :P
Can you do the same without any effect on you if the wall isn’t there?
I hike and camp a lot, and I prefer mountainous terrain. So I get a lot of opportunities to look out over what are long falls, and nature is seldom so considerate as to put up a rail that I can stand behind. It’s these situation where my sphincter clenches up, despite me not having any general fear of heights. And it’s not even really fear in these cases. I don’t freeze or get sweaty or anything, and I know what I’m doing when I walk up to the edge of some cliff or outcrop which looks out over a big drop.
I don’t have a fear of heights, I have a fear of the easiest way down.
Well see #327, it explains it pretty well.
“Bayonettes on a minigun?”
“Yeah, that started off as a joke.”
I know the point of this exercise is to teach her not to rely on her orbs but I’m still curious how fast she can complete the course if she’s allowed to use them.
Between the speed and ability to bypass terrain that flight would give her quite a lot faster however she would need to land to reload.
Well… if she can keep the shield orb up and switch between flight orb and either the light hook or PPO then I suspect she could do it pretty quickly without having to worry about cover. Best part is even if she’s switching as quick as possible between the flight orb and an attack one she’ll probably still have enough time to not attack a civilian target.
However if they absolutely require her to use cover then I imagine she could use just the flight orb and PPO or Light Hook and cruise through it fast with only the threat of hitting a civilian to slow her down… or running physically into an obstacle at high speed with the flight orb… which, when talking about Sydney, is probably something that’ll happen.
The ability to bypass terrain with the flight orb doesn’t matter for a test in which the student is expected to have their feet more or less planted, other than whatever movement is necessary to compensate for the Newton’s third law consequences from her gun movements. All of Sydney’s movement on her first run was due to her being a goof.
The shield orb isn’t really necessary, as the ‘live fire’ aspect means that there are real bullets in her gun, not that she’s getting shot at. The course is designed to not ricochet bullets back at her.
I’m not sure where the light hook enters into this, though I suppose she could knock the cutouts over instead of PPOing them, and depending on how the sensor worked, that could count as a hit. (Also, depending on how the sensor worked, the PPO might *not* count as a hit. The PPO could simply vaporize the target without any physical vibration that the sensor uses to register a hit.)
I upvote this comment
She needs to find out how to link those glasses to her orbs and have cora install some sort of IFF / way to detect if the target is armed…
Target in sight, lockon , blast away!
I’m not sure we’ve gotten a real indication that the PPO is faster than shooting a loaded semi-automatic. Static panels don’t really show speed well, and most of the time don’t try to. Sure, the PPO has a fully-automatic mode, but that’s a good way to shoot a civvie.
Using the orbs, she doesn’t have reload time. But other than that, I don’t think we have any way, as readers, to figure this out. I’d think it would take a DaveB answer.
I’m not quite certain why Sydney is required to train with a gun. Sure, Maxima made a good point that pointing a gun conveys intention quite nicely, but it’s not the same as actually using the gun.
Same for wall climbing. It’s not like Sydney is going to lose her powers. And if she does, the best they can do is to send her home, not try to make Peggy out of her.
The PPO has not demonstrated a low power setting so a weaker weapon is a good idea and they know nothing about those orbs so they could cut out the second she actually takes a life or shut down for a hour to recharge tomorrow morning or just give her a pop up saying she has reached the end of her free trial and must pay keep using them.
She’s part of the DoD, and in a military structure. And what’s more, is that conveying intention should ALWAYS be backed up with the ability to actually use it, and use it both competently and effectively. As for wall climbing, it’s part of a physical fitness thing that all military personnel need to undergo on a regular basis.
It’s an long shot, but if Sydney is denied her powers for any reason – nullification fields, unforeseen and *bad* functionality of the orbs, wearing gloves that for one reason or another, cannot come off, a coating applied to the orbs… It’d sure suck if she didn’t have a piece of standard equipment and no training even if she did have it should those events occur; similarly sucky situation if she wasn’t physically fit enough to escape or go to fisticuffs in these scenarios.
In terms of how fiction works: if she relied 100% on her orbs, that’d be exactly when the GM has a monk do some special combat/grapple actions to keep the orbs out of Sidney’s hands.
Please explain to the class how Sydney’s training with a pistol is going to be of use in the situation where she does not have the use of her hands.
In general I agree with your post, but that example should have been thought through a bit before posting, eh?
I think you misread it: it’s not about making her unable to use her hands, it’s about keeping the orbs out of those. Which might be a reasonable concern, but probably not the biggest one (like, for example, the concern over what would happen if some bad guy gets to physically touch the orbs).
she’s wearing gloves?
Somebody put super-epoxy on her gun. She drew her gun to intimidate someone, and now she can’t drop it to pick up an orb. In *either* hand, because she used her other hand to brace the gun for a moment before she figured out her gun was epoxied.
Of course, the worst bit about this is her inability to maintain trigger discipline after her finger touches the epoxied trigger…
(Yeah, I deliberately came up with one where the useless except for threat value gun is part of the power block.)
I assume because having a weapon and not knowing how to use it is a big no-no for Archon (or any elite branch of anything, really). As another superhero series put it, the good guys aren’t better because they’re stronger, but because they train harder than the bad guys. And a big part of that is training at _everything_, not just your specific skills/powers.
This has been extensively discussed already, but:
1) They don’t know whether her powers can be shut down or misfire; their power source is unknown, and there are a lot of other powers out there, the interactions of which with her orbs are also unknown.
2) She’s going to have to work alongside teammates with guns (Peggy, Duke et al), and a little firsthand experience of how they operate should be useful.
3) The training has other transferrable benefits. She’s also being trained in resilience, which she would not gain from simply having fun with her orbs. She’s getting used to a learning environment, obeying safety instructions etc., in a controlled and known environment.
4) They’re probably still figuring out what an effective training programme for the orbs would look like.
5) The availability of suitably durable people to supervise full on training with the pew pew orb is pretty much just Maxima and Achilles, of whom only Maxima would be any good at it / able to prevent collateral damage. Similarly, so far as we know they’ve only got Maxima and Hiro available to teach flying, not that many esoteric tech specialists to help with researching its functions (Dabbler and maybe some support tech staff), etc. All of whom have significant other commitments besides training even a very powerful newbie. Whereas it’s easy to find people to train her in physical training and firearms. (Although maybe some combat lighthook training might be relatively easy to organise safely as a starting point)
6) RE collateral damage: they can get some idea from how she responds to this training of the likelihood and frequency of her going off book in more dangerous training.
7) It would be irresponsible to give someone a gun to carry for intimidation purposes without even a little training in how to use it.
She has to show she CAN act as a member of the team.
Her past succeses she was a wildcard.
It’s the journey AND the destination.
> and there are a lot of other powers out there, the interactions of which with her orbs are also unknown
Unrelated, but: I would seriously consider somebody else grabbing the orbs — it was pointed out before that nobody knows what would happen. Achilles might be a good candidate for this. Anyway, I’ve already addressed that point — best to keep her out of fight then.
> a little firsthand experience of how they operate should be useful.
Again: how? If, say, she and Peggy are on a mission together, and Peggy is shot — Sydney shouldn’t grab her gun and try to shoot, she should use her orbs. There is a point that her powers could shut down in a middle of a fight, but that means those training sessions provide her an unlikely backup at best, and we don’t spend day after day honing a skill that we aren’t expected to ever use.
> She’s also being trained in resilience, which she would not gain from simply having fun with her orbs. She’s getting used to a learning environment, obeying safety instructions etc., in a controlled and known environment.
Yes, except that (unless the orbs shut down) those are not skills she would need. I don’t think there is any point in teaching Achilles a proper technique of falling down (I actually did at some point learn how to safely fall on your back), since he is, you know, invulnerable. Speaking of, we could ALSO expect Achilles invulnerability (or any other super’s power) to shut down just as easily, since nobody knows how exactly those work.
> They’re probably still figuring out what an effective training programme for the orbs would look like.
Ahem. Then maybe start training when it IS figured out? Doing something for the sake of doing something is generally a bad idea.
> Whereas it’s easy to find people to train her in physical training and firearms.
Again, that’s doing something for the sake of doing something.
> they can get some idea from how she responds to this training of the likelihood and frequency of her going off book in more dangerous training.
OK, fair point. But again, that probably shouldn’t be an exhausting all-day training session.
> It would be irresponsible to give someone a gun to carry for intimidation purposes without even a little training in how to use it.
It doesn’t have to BE an actual gun; theatrical prop would do just fine.
“It doesn’t have to BE an actual gun; theatrical prop would do just fine.”
Ask all those families who have lost a kid to a police shooting because all the kid had was “theatrical prop”.
Lissen up cobber. You have never been in a team, have you? You are a solo player, we get that. But please don’t wreck the playground for others, just because you don’t like it. Find a playground that nobody else uses, then remodel it. We won’t mind.
> Ask all those families who have lost a kid to a police shooting because all the kid had was “theatrical prop”.
Um… That’s exactly my point. The prop looks just as threatening as the real thing.
> You have never been in a team, have you?
There is no need for personal attacks. And no, you’re incorrect.
> But please don’t wreck the playground for others
Are you trying to censor others’ comments here? Sorry, mate, but there is only one person who is allowed to do so here, and that’s Dave B. Now, if HE asks me not to raise certain questions, I’ll comply, but YOU don’t have that kind of power.
“That’s exactly my point. The prop looks just as threatening as the real thing.”
NOW I get to a personal attack. The prop is only a threat, nothing more. You are an idiot if you rely on a mere threat to restrain a potentially violent person.
No, I am not trying to censor anyone’s comments, there’s no point in only trying when the power is missing. And your attitudes in everything you postulate (NOT your replies to me) reveal your lack of team spirit.
> The prop is only a threat, nothing more. You are an idiot if you rely on a mere threat to restrain a potentially violent person.
Of course. I’m not suggesting that Sydney abandons her REAL weapon, which is MUCH more powerful, if less intimidating.
> And your attitudes in everything you postulate (NOT your replies to me) reveal your lack of team spirit.
Frankly, I doubt you actually know what “team spirit” means.
Here’s the problem with having a prop. A prop does not inspire her to have discipline. Because she knows it’s a prop. She knows it’s not deadly, so if she uses it incorrectly, no one is at risk, therefore there’s no need to be responsible with handling it. Even with the PPO, although she’s more responsible than they thought she’d be with it, she’s not exactly ‘scared’ of it. She gets ‘lost’ in using it the time she used it as a cutting weapon, and used it very panicked against the Super Mannikiller (and not that effectively, since she wasnt aiming well).
With a real gun, you have to be responsible. That message is ingrained in your head with proper gun safety, instead learning how to use a gun from watching Hollywood movies (which Peggy has already exorcised from Sydney’s head).
Not to mention, a gun is easier to train with than the PPO, of which we currently only know of two types of ways to fire it – big-honking space beam and rapid spray and pray firing. Neither of which have been shown to be particularly precise for Sydney YET.
Yes, they will need to train her on aiming the PPO, but you shouldnt start with teaching a person how to drive a tank until they know how the basics of how to drive a car first.
>but you shouldnt start with teaching a person how to drive a tank until they know how the basics of how to drive a car first.
As Faith Marie Smith learned on her 14th birthday.
I do not know who that is. Theooint I am trying to make is, when training someone in anything – especially responsible weapon use, be it an orb or a firearm, you need to start small and build up.
First they started with video games
Then guns on a paper target
Then guns on a live fire range
Then they can work up to using the PPO.
In the meantime theyre going to try getting a gauge on its power levels before having her fire it at targets.
To quote Dabbler… “thin edge of the wedge. You need to start with being able to take in one finger before you can handle two.” :)
Theooint = the point.
Sorry was using my phone.
I agree. Just making a nerd comment.
Faith Marie Smith is John Ringo character from the Dark Tide Rising series. (Bio-plague living zombie apocalypse series) who is direct commissioned as a Marine LT when she was 13. Got her first driving lesson on her 14th birthday in an M1 tank they named Trixie. She ran over a lot of cars with it.
>> a little firsthand experience of how they operate should be useful.
>Again: how? If, say, she and Peggy are on a mission together, and Peggy is shot — Sydney shouldn’t grab her gun and try to shoot, she should use her orbs.
That’s not the point, the point is to effectively operate in a team everyone has to have a reasonable idea of each-other’s capabilities. Currently, Sydney’s only knowledge of firearms and what can/cannot be done with them comes from video-games and action movies. Sydney knows that Peggy is an expert-level sniper but she could get herself and her team into a LOT of trouble if she goes into a situation thinking that this means Peggy can deliberately ricochet a bullet off three walls and still hit the gnat landing on a perp’s nose.
> the point is to effectively operate in a team everyone has to have a reasonable idea of each-other’s capabilities
That actually makes a lot of sense. Still, the training seems to be focused on making her proficient with a firearm, not on making her understand the limits of such proficiency in others. But that might be just my perception.
Fridge logic though: this training might get her somewhat more accurate idea of Peggy’s abilities, but not, say, Anvil’s or Jiggawatt’s. So, it’s not about “have a reasonable idea of each other’s capabilities”, it’s more about “have a reasonable idea of some, not the most important, part of the team’s capabilities” (and yes, Peggy is an important member of the team, just not in the most important part).
That’s a fair point, but handgun capabilities are very general-purpose compared to the Supers’ individual Powers. Familiarity with firearms use and tactics doesn’t just give you insight into Peggy’s capabilities on the field, but also Goose, Seneca, Sean the Seal…
The ‘flashier’ powers, including ‘Peak Humans’ like Math, are all effectively unique cases; learning the capabilities of one doesn’t necessarily say much about any others. In contrast, any Baseline Human, and any Super whose Powers don’t involve ‘special’ physical enhancements, will be operating within the same capabilities and constraints if (for whatever reason) they’re using a given type of firearm. Note that this doesn’t just apply to members of ARC, but also to potential opponents both Powered and Baseline. If we assume that it takes a comparable amount of time and effort to learn each set of capabilities, it makes sense to start with the set that can be most widely applied.
You don’t military, do you?
If you refer to how military tends to apply something that worked before even if the situation is completely different, I totally understand (and it’s not just military that does it). However, it seemed like Archon is significantly more relaxed than your average military, so, they might actually apply some reason there as well.
For example, Maxima’s aforementioned reasoning about why they carry guns at all seems quite solid.
I really don’t see how physical conditioning, general discipline, and basic firearm practice are niche skills.
Some of them could easily carry over to powered combat, as Sydney has been caught by surprise and with her shield down before. On top of it making her a better team player.
I guess I just find it a bit inconsistent that we have all this training, but we never see it being useful. In every fight we’ve seen until now, only non-supers used guns or employed their physical skills, supers (including Sydney) would ALWAYS rely heavily on their powers and not on their training.
That’s a false dichotomy.
One of the ways that you mindfully train a skill is by holding all other skills steady…. make them boring, so that only the one you are training gets the attention. Poor Sydney is going to be on that course all night in her dreams, integrating what she learned.
What Sydney trained here — limited to a gun, her body, and her perceptions — will be in play in all future scenarios she inhabits, with the exception of the gun.
Maxima didn’t make “a good point that pointing a gun conveys intention quite nicely“. She made a good point that while very few people with a bad attitude can recognise the devastation they’ll get from the PewPew, they will always recognise the promise of a loaded gun. And I’m very sure you’ve seen all those Hollywood situations where the person with the gun cannot bring him/herself to actually squeeze the trigger. So thus the need to train Syddles that she is actually required to occasionally kill real live people in a very personal fashion.
So the Hogan’s Run is as much desensitising as it is target discrimination. Now all that’s needed is to ensure Syddles never gets closer than 2 meters (“yards” for the underprivileged) to any suspect she’s bailing up. “GET THOSE HANDS UP TO THE CEILING, AND MAKE SURE YOUR FEET AIN’T TOUCHING THE GROUND!”… “Hey little girl,” reaching for Syddles “you be…” BANG. “Do you not understand American?… Oh. You’re dead. Stupid wannabees.”
Same for wall-climbing. Any enforcement group is a team effort. If you are not prepared to do things the hard way, the way less privileged members have to do it, then you don’t belong. The corollary is that the team management are required to make sure everybody can do things the hard way, and train the under-privileged to take advantage of whatever powers are available.
And there’s a third reason. Archon needs to find out what she’s made of. I have to admit Archon has not yet assumed that responsibility, but they gotta start somewhere. Corporal Pixel needs an intensive 12-week military training course starting sometime last week…
> She made a good point that while very few people with a bad attitude can recognise the devastation they’ll get from the PewPew, they will always recognise the promise of a loaded gun.
How is that different from what I’ve said?
> the need to train Syddles that she is actually required to occasionally kill real live people
By making her shoot cardboard cutouts?
> So the Hogan’s Run is as much desensitising as it is target discrimination.
I didn’t understand anything in that paragraph, sorry.
> If you are not prepared to do things the hard way, the way less privileged members have to do it,
Bullshit. If you can fly and aren’t prepared to climb, it doesn’t mean another bembers would have to climb instead of you. It means that you’ll fly up and save everybody’s breaths.
> Archon needs to find out what she’s made of.
Assuming that someone’s performance in training sessions is a reliable indicator of that someone’s performance in a live environment is a common mistake, yes.
I see that you would prefer to simply assume what performance in a live environment will be based upon the tea leaves instead of a test which tries to closely approximate the situation.
Well, it kinda doesn’t. Which is the point.
Re-e-al-l-ly?
Yeah, you can’t read tea leaves and figure out who is going to freeze up just because they are 20′ above the ground. MigMit might wish that this was the case, but it isn’t so. You need a test which at least closely approximates the situation you are training for in real life.
A lot more people would be killed by friendly fire if the shooters never had to practice not firing at friendlies while also trying to kill the nonfriendlies as quickly as possible. No test environment is going to be a perfect match for reality, but it can train the reflexes and the mind to work better when the real situation arises.
>Assuming that someone’s performance in training sessions is a reliable indicator of that someone’s performance in a live environment is a common mistake, yes.
If you can think of a better and more consistent way to reliably train Sydney in that aspect, I’d love to hear it.
Otherwise this is the most practical way.
>> the need to train Syddles that she is actually required to occasionally kill real live people
>By making her shoot cardboard cutouts?
>> So the Hogan’s Run is as much desensitising as it is target discrimination.
>I didn’t understand anything in that paragraph, sorry.
This is not meant to be rude, but your last line is pretty obvious from this and other comments you made.
She is in a line of work which might require her to perform actions that will kill people. This is not something that most people can do, much less in an instant, without training. You need to train people to recognize hostile situations and respond with muscle memory as soon at the brain identifies the threat, and decides to respond. Without the, “OH HOLY SHITBALLS! If I do this I might kill them. They are trying to kill me, but I don’t if I can do something that might take someones life..” Especially if you are doing that, you’re likely to be killed at the “If I do ….” point.
That requires training, desensitsation, and repetition until you are capable of acting at the muscle memory level. That type of training mostly carries over to whatever weapon you are using. Whether the PPO or the Lighthook is the chosen weapon, the majority of the heavy lifting is done in training the mind in how to discriminate threats and responses.
Starting off with firearms training even with superpowers works on that mental skill set. And it is a lot less hard on the scenery with a gun than a tank-vaporizing weapon.
> Without the, “OH HOLY SHITBALLS! If I do this I might kill them.
Ahem. https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-212-premature-articulation/
This seems the least of Sydney’s problems.
> your last line is pretty obvious from this and other comments you made
I see what you did here.
But honestly, I only meant that I’m unfamiliar with most of those references (e.g., I have no idea what “Hogan’s Run” is).
>> Without the, “OH HOLY SHITBALLS! If I do this I might kill them.
>Ahem. https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-212-premature-articulation/
>This seems the least of Sydney’s problems.
Nope, not even remotely the same thing, especially when her response later is this:
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-327-ask-a-self-evident-question/
>> your last line is pretty obvious from this and other comments you made
>I see what you did here.
>But honestly, I only meant that I’m unfamiliar with most of those references (e.g., I have no idea what >“Hogan’s Run” is).
I thought that would have been obvious from context, but here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan%27s_Alley_(FBI)
> especially when her response later is this:
I don’t see her trying, or hesitating, or refusing to kill anybody in the page you linked.
> I thought that would have been obvious from context,
Well, not to someone who never heard of that thing.
Ok, not worth the discussion, if you aren’t willing to accept information that didn’t come from you.
???
I don’t care who the information comes from. We were discussing people being unwilling to pull the trigger (even if threatened); I don’t see how the linked page is relevant, given that there is no trigger for Sydney to pull there. Perhaps you can explain?
It’s about trigger DISCIPLINE, even if a weapon does not have a trigger. Ie, if you want to fire a howitzer, learn to fire a gun first, even if the two things are not the same. The mentality behind them are and the mindset you need to be in when using them are.
Or as I’ve said a few times, you need to teach someone how to drive a car before you have them drive a tank if you want to do things in a controlled situation.
“By making her shoot cardboard cutouts?”
Yes, by making her shoot cardboard cutouts. And before that, by making her learn basic tactics by playing a video game BEFORE she moved to using a gun Its safe progression before whipping out the PPO and firing it in a live fire course, since the PPO’s power levels are sort of like learning to fire a howitzer before learning to fire a basic gun.
First – teach her basic tactics – ie, the video game.
Second – teach her how to aim – ie, the paper targets.
Third – teach her how to combine tactics + aiming under a stressful situation (ie, timed) where things change during the test – ie, the live fire course
Fourth – teach her the level of her PPO’s power output (assuming they can figure that out)
Fifth – teach her to apply what she’s learned with a gun (both discipline-wise, aiming-wise, and strategy-wise, to the PPO
“The whole point with the training is the leashing.”
I’d forgotten that page :(
I miss this comic
In the military, everyone goes through basic training. Even those headed out to be office clerks in the ass end of Nebraska and will never, ever see any actual combat or carry a weapon on a regular basis will have to go through training, including firearm training. Archon might be more relaxed in protocol than the standard military unit, but they still have strict regulations that they must adhere to, that includes every soldier/officer in a branch. And given that Archo is also classified as a domestic police force, there is additional training they will have to endure.
It’s also been stated before that Sydney will be armed with a pistol at the very least when out in the field on official duty, so she has to know how to use it regardless if she ever does or not.
It boils down to a principle of: It’s better to have it (firearm/physical training) and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Exactly, when I was training to use the Bloop Tube (grenade launcher) I still had to qualify with my .38 Special that I chose because it looked cooler than the .45 and also because my one previous experience with a .45 showed my tiny hands had a very bad time with the grip safety. Most of my life experiences have been that small hands were useful for getting things in or out of small spaces, but the grip safety of a .45 was not one of those experiences. Also this was right before the grenade launcher was integrated with the M16 so grenadiers had to have a pistol to shoot when the target was too close to use the grenades.
If you have a gun, you should trained to use a gun. If you are pointing a gun at someone, you should be trained to use a gun.
Not having training makes you more dangerous to everyone around you when you have a gun. It’s a deadly tool, you don’t just hand it out to look intimidating. That would be grossly irresponsible. Anyone carrying a gun around without being trained how to use it properly should not have a gun.
Bear in mind that the PPO has two known settings – a powerful auto-cannon and a doomsday gun. Perhaps she should have something a bit less overkilly?
Its even more impressive that she kept getting better while also running out of steam from non-stop exercise all day.
Still poor form on Peggy, fatigue and a live range is recipe for dead people….
You’d have to be incredibly tired to shoot yourself instead of just putting the gun down and refusing to continue. I suspect Peggy was going for fatigue as much as reducing the time, she’s not the type to let Sydney’s ADHD override the command/training structure.
Not Self, others, have seen too often, especially with unskilled recruits…
But if we’re talking about shooting oneself with a pistol, a quick troll of youtube will net you far too many video showing you dont need to be too tired to shoot yourself with a pistol.
Fatigue training is valid, but can be done with blanks and with more experenced personnel.
You go Sydney! You’re a better Trooper than I am
Should have included a clock somewhere to let us know how long they’ve actually been at it. Pretty sure Sydney would say it’s been an eternity at this point. :P
An in-comic clock might help contextualise this, but that could also be done next page. For example, she gets outside once she’s done and it’s night.
Sometimes simple tasks take a lot longer than you expect, and night just sneaks up on you.
Where is her hearing protection? Where is ANYONE’S hearing protection!? This is a live fire exercise in an indoor environment with less than stellar sound absorption!
…and a pretty loud and flashy gun such an unsupressed Five-seveN is.
*eg* Maybe they’re all tone-deaf since the Club Oonz clubbing and Golem blasting and Fel hunting and Mountain blasting &c.
Until proven otherwise, I’m going to assume it’s those foam in-ear ones, but, like, Dabbler apprentice has cranked with them so they don’t impede speech-frequency noises.
Those little foam ones are pretty good for allowing speech through and still suppressing sound..
Another note with her reload is that if she’d been counting her shots better then she’d be changing while still holding one in the chamber so there isn’t a need to load the first round… That might depend on exactly what gun she has but It appears like her particular model requires that.
Another thought… I wonder if the “glasses” would be able to register the “PPO” and provide targeting guidance for it.
Honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me if she need to get Dabbler or one of the ship’s crew to do some custom modifications in order to have it recognised.
It’s an auto pistol, the slide is held back initially by the empty mag and then by a internal mech, swap in a new mag and it chambers a fresh round..
Yes it does that. But some people feel that it is better to change magazines with one in the chamber because if you have a threat present before you get the magazine replace, (depending on firearm) you can respond with at least one round. Also, you don’t have to move your thumb up to release the slide catch and let the slide slam home. That takes a bit more time, and at least for me, moves the pistol a bit from the momentum of the slide
It’s an auto pistol, the slide is held back by a small catch engaged by an empty mag, fresh mag on and release the slide, and a new round is chambered.
Dabbler and Specs were both unable to scan the orbs in any way, I doubt Cora’s tech can either. The only thing we’ve seen register the orbs at all is the Squiddy scout, and it responded pretty dramatically.
Grabs the PPO.
Starts ‘identify weapon’ sequence.
Error.
Why does Sydney need to do the course? Simplez. She is a serving member of an organisation, which has a defined range of core competencies.
+1.
After the mag incident, I’m surprised Peggy doesn’t have Sydney practice doing mag swaps until it can be done without looking at the firearm.
Plus blind field-strip and re-assembly. At night. With the lights off.
DISHONOUR ON YOU. DISHONOUR ON YOUR COW!
Sorry still not seeing the point of this timed ability of Sydney vs military soldiers (2-6 years of prior service) and Supers (with innate powers)
Had it been a live fire house with teams, then I can see the training value. Since your taking someone still in Basic (as seen by Sydney’s other activities) and not giving them a goal except do it faster. It serves as much utility as an obstacle course. So it comes out this is the military way of doing things, not this is how to make a team member.
You ever been in the military? Or the Fireys? An Ambo? Police? They all do it the same way, because it works. It works because everybody has to go through the same punishment, to the same standards. When nobody is privileged, you become a team. T. E. A. M. And it really is the Basic Training, “Keep Up, or Keep Out.”
Everybody in Arc-SWAT had to make the 4-minute mark so they could stay in the unit. Mind you, I’d love to see General Faulk do his annual… :)
Yeah, there is no way Maxima would not be considered privileged — she has to do all the same exercises.
Messed up double negatives here. Basically, if everyone has to do the same things, then those with skills are bound to be considered privileged. Teamwork is not about everyone being the same, it’s about recognizing individual skills and assigning people to do what they do best. “This looks like the job for Aquaman” and so on.
Did you not read the previous page which showed that the ones at the top of board were the ones without powers?
And those who that replied seemed to miss my point, Sydney is still doing basic training, she is not a combat VET or warrior like everyone else that ARC deploys is.
Academy cadets have zero muscle memory on weapons there have just been exposed to.
Sydney is still just a plebe with the greatest set of gear( and gadgets) on earth.
And since this is an elite unit, where are the parachute drops? I mean every US military elite has to go to jump school. Do they have a minimum number of drops since you don’t time jumps?
Let’s just say the Men in Black live fire pistol demo seems more appropriate for what we know Sydney is going to deal with
And… what’s your point here? Yes, if supers are artificially hamstrung, they don’t do well. Which is why it’s not Heatwave who has a sniper rifle when they fight Vehemence, it’s Peggy.
That’s also because Brook isn’t trained in using a sniper rifle, Pegs is
And the point in non-powered training, is if they are ever in a position where they, for whatever reason, can’t use their powers, they can still contribute (probably the wrong word, still struggle with finding the correct terminology sometimes)
For example: they are in a gaseous environment, safe enough to breath, just highly flammable, which renders Brook effectively useless (and highly dangerous) seeing how her power-set is flames
You wouldn’t expect her to just find a corner and sit the encounter out, would you?
> That’s also because Brook isn’t trained in using a sniper rifle, Pegs is
Exactly! And that is totally fine.
> they are in a gaseous environment, safe enough to breath, just highly flammable
Are you seriously suggesting using FIREarms in that situation?
And yes, in some very special situations I do expect some team members to sit on their hands, or keep busy somewhere else (like, for example, getting out of the room and running the perimeter). Preparing for unlikely situations might be worth it, but training for the likely ones should probably take precedence.
Just because they have the name ‘fire’ in them doesn’t mean the are, literally, on fire, and most modern firearms don’t ‘spark’ like in the movies
How do you know what is likely or unlikely?
If they are properly trained, there would be no need for anyone to be sitting on their hands
sorry but, striker hits primer, combustion. Highly flammable gas everywhere, guess what just happened inside your gun and now around your hand.
Note how said “‘spark’ like in the movies”? You know, the same movies that have cars exploding into a fireball when they get hit by another car?
Not talking about flintlock pistols
even if its now small last I checked guns still use combustion tech; striker, primer, to propel bullets. Its not a huge spark, but its still a spark, and since it IS causing combustion and air is needed for combustion, if there was a saturation of a highly flammable gas everywhere around you, then that spark would be enough to ignite that too.
-although this conversation is giving me a weird Myth Busters vibe, did they ever do one on if modern guns firing inside flammable gas could ignite the gas.
we also had a comments discussion like this before regarding the use of heat vision or heat beams in general against someone holding a gun.
“did [Mythbusters] ever do one on if modern guns firing inside flammable gas could ignite the gas – Rhuen
I don’t know whether they did test it or not, but I would expect it could in the right circumstances. Even if the muzzle flash isn’t carrying particles of burning propellant, it’s still a large amount of very hot combustion products being forcibly injected into the atmosphere, which could well be enough to kick off the chain reaction of igniting the room gas. A handgun would probably be a higher risk than a rifle: the shorter barrel contains the propellant explosion for less time, so the combustion products have less time to cool and the propellant powder grains have less time to burn through before they’re exposed to the room gas.
Note that much will depend on the concentration of flammable gas and oxidiser (usually oxygen) within the room. Explosions are only possible within a certain range, the limits of which are different for each fuel/oxidiser combination: not enough fuel or not enough oxidiser, and the chain reaction dies out before it can spread and explode. Temperature, pressure, and the presence of inert gases will also have an effect.
The skills of a sniper are different and more specialized than the skills for a normal person shooting a gun
The former is a specialization – the latter is the basics. I’m willing to bed Brooke knows the basics of using a firearm, even though she’s not a sniper like Peggy is.
I’d be interested to see what effects from this training carry over into her use of her other powers.
Remember Sydney: slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
It’s fun to see Sydney make an older cultural reference, even if Romeo and Juliet is kind of an obvious one. She actually does have some knowledge of pop culture older than the TV era.
Yep, Sydney may have gotten better at her marksmanship but the military also needs to know that she can keep that up while under stressful conditions. Since this is all under the caveat that can be filed under “job expectations” at least Sydney won’t have to pay for the ammo she’s using today…
Aaaahhhh come ON! There’s no way ArcSWAT is like the WA Police, too underfunded to cover cops’ required hand-gun practise! (They have to pay for that out of their own pockets at a PRIVATE SECTOR gun range, fer crissakes!) AND they have to use Glocks — you know, the cheapest crap available. At least the government could have bought them Beretta Px4s!
I’m a little surprised there wasn’t a “Rest the clock” reference in this page, seems like the perfect place for it and it’s a movie that I know that Sydney would have seen and I’m willing to bet Peggy has too.
That said, ah the joys of a shoot house/live fire course. That 3:58 time would have felt a lot longer than you think it would especially since she’s been running it so many times. I do imagine that there’s a different array and patterns of poppers otherwise sheer repetition would have Sydney just jumping from target to target because she knew exactly where they were instead of actually practicing her situational awareness but that may come later.
That was supposed to be “Reset the clock”, stupid autocorrect.
That clock has been running all day. It needed some rest.
oh, the clock can rest whenever it likes, it has plenty of time on its hands.
Boooooo!
But after that, it won’t dare show its face any time soon.
Hisssssssssssss!
You seem all wound up. Maybe you should relax by watch-ing some videos on TikTok.
Nice – that one’s sure to grind gorblimey’s gears.
I’m looking for something punny here, but maybe I need winding up?
I would, but time seems to have fled…
I’m actually feeling really bad for Sydney here. This whole gun course scene has been really brutal for her. Especially since you said this took all day. Especially with the chance of her actually using a gun in a combat scenario would be really low and situational at best considering she needs her hands free to use her powers right now.
Every time I’ve completed a new karate kata (without any major mistakes) my sensei responded with that line
Dropping a magazine is something that might happen in a real life combat scenario.
Rather than starting over, reacting to that fumble in a way that doesn’t slow you down or endanger you should be something you practice.
Grab another mag and slap in it, continue the course.
Why continue when she knows she’s already failed to beat the clock?
I know she’s gotten it in other contexts, but Sydney now knows the true meaning of “I can do this all day.”
This is about situational awareness and focus don’t get distracted by the gun. The important lessons learned there extend far beyond combat, especially for someone like Sydney.
This isn’t really about training Sydney to use a gun, really.
It’s about improving her target discipline, handling stress and surprises, and helping her not lash out.
Also: “you work the task until the task is done.” Or as much of it as they can get away with. Seriously, they’ve already dialed it back as far as they can with Sydney, because she’s not an Embrace the Suck type with an existing predilection to be a soldier. Heck, imagine if she didn’t *want* to be a four-color super, but still had this power suite.
More like a COURSE upon your house, amirite? ;)
A curse on this course.
Filthy casual range people go to the range, and go home after one run. Hardcore range people go to the range all day. They run the course over and over because they are just that hardcore.
If you really want to save time on the reload leave one round in the chamber so you don’t need to re-cock the gun.
This was pointed out before, but the gun she is shooting is a semi-automatic.
Basic types of guns:
Single action – Most primitive type of gun that can hold more than one round, usually a revolver. Think ‘Old American West’. In order to shoot, the hammer must be pulled back and set (cocked) mannually. Pull the trigger, the hammer falls, & the gun fires the bullet. To shoot again, you have to re-cock the hammer, which also spins the next bullet in position. Slow, & requires 2 hands or a lot of fumbling to reset.
Double action – Most modern revolver designs. You don’t have to manually cock the hammer. The trigger mechanism pulls the hammer back and spins the next bullet into position as you are squeezing, and releases tthe hammer at the end of travel. Most of this type can be fired as a single action, which can be more accurate because you aren’t fighting the spring on tbe hammer. Can be fired easily with one hand.
Semi-automatic – The type of gun that Sidney is using. Instead of holding bullets in a round cylinder (classic 6-shooter) they are stored in a magazine in the handle. Pull the trigger, the hammer fires, and the force pushes the top of the gun (the slide) back. This ejects the empty case & resets the hammer, and grabs another bullet when it slides back forward. Some of these can only fire the first shot if you cock the hammer (like a single action) and some will pull the hammer back for you (like a double action.) This type can usually hold more bullets, but has a SLIGHT disadvantage. If the bullet doesn’t fire, you have to manually clear the jam and reset the whole gun (good design and quality bullets make this rare.) A single- or double action just requires you to pull the hammer back and spin a good bullet into firing position.
Run out of bullets in the single- or double- action revolver, and the cylinder has rotated 360, so you have an empty case. The gun functions the same, but there is nothing to shoot. You have to pull the empty cases out and reload.
Run out of bullets in a semi-auto, and the piece in the magazine that pushes more bullets up to be fired goes far enough to block the slide back. Push a button, and the empty mag drops out. Load a full one in and push another button, and it releases the slide and loads a bullet. If you drop the mag out when it is empty but there is still one bullet in the chamber, you can load a full magazine in without having the slide lock back.
Full automatic guns are similat to a semi-automatic, but they keep firing until you let go of the trigger (or run out of ammo.)
Of course there are odd-ball designs out there like the Semi-automatic Webly revolver, but this covers 99% of it.
As you mentioned, a semi-auto design generally (always?) locks open after the last shot is fired, requiring a (minimal) user action (push button or pulling the slide) after changing magazines to load the top round and continue shooting.
However counting shots and (optionally) swapping early is still a beneficial habit, because it prevents someone from trying to take a critical shot after breaking cover and a) trying to fire an open, unloaded weapon, or b) having only 1-2 rounds left and then having to reload unexpectedly.
Some designs will even allow you to fire that last round with the magazine out, in case you are unable to finish reloading before needing it. Most don’t though, preferring the interlock safety of requiring a magazine to avoid the risk of accidental firing while its “unloaded”.
ADHD folks are actually pretty good at situations like this, since our attention is everywhere and on everything at once. Learning curve doesn’t really curve that much, though.
… list… of curses… so long… too tired… to enunciate…
So we know that there are female badguys in the universe yet all of the badguys on the training course are burly 30-40 year old men and all of the “civilians” are women. I know there’s a certain aesthetic in comic books about the appearance of the minion mooks but this seems like a bad mind set to be instilling into what you’re portraying as a realistic lethal force range. Instead of just changing the target to the “harmless woman” on one run maybe have the character with a gun on one run and without a gun on the next.
I think DaveB mentioned on an earlier page that they probably need to get less stereotypical targets.
The one Sidney said was a bad guy last time was a blue girl. It’s common to have swappable bits on the targets, so one run the bearded guy in gray sweats is holding a rake and the next time he’s got a riot gun. They also move the targets every time.
Being told to do it again to prove it’s not a fluke is right up there with “No, your OTHER left!” in terms of being funny right up till you hear it actually used. A dreaded variation on it is being told your success at something proves your earlier failures were just you being lazy, do it again as punishment.
Given that military forces tend to end up in situations where the first attempt is the ONLY attempt, encouraging maximum effort right out of the gate is a pretty good idea. Still felt unfair as all blazes when the Leading Hand dropped that on our team after the fourth run of the 2 mile peg.
Analysis:
why does Sydney have to do this.
Primary: Archon is primarily military/law enforcement. So regulation.
-adjusting training to fit each individual super’s power set isn’t really feasible so this creates a base understanding of her abilities, as well she is physically more base line human than most supers so training on targeting, reaction time, speed, ect…
Secondary: Other than being creative with them, Sydney only has one offensive power, and it is an overkill power whose lowest unlocked setting still amounts to “everything is on fire”. So training in a weapon that can be threatening, and able to disable or take down a threat with (minimal) risk to civilians and the surrounding area isn’t a bad idea.
Succinctly put, although tangentially, I don’t think “one offensive power” is entirely accurate. Obviously the PPO is her main weapon, and overkill for most situations, but she’s put the lighthook to good offensive use, and shown plenty of creative thinking in using the others in unorthodox ways. She could also use the shield & flight orb as a human wrecking ball, or (potentially) create knockout/poisonous gases with the air orb.
the shield can be argued more for combat, although I wasn’t thinking defensive power only offensive power, I don’t normally think of a Defense Aura as combat exclusive as it also protects from daily hazards. But yeah I get the idea. Its a powerful barrier so likely intended for defense against attacks. Was thinking again, offensive use against opponents; even creatively a wrecking ball is still over kill in most combat scenarios with civilians and limiting property damage, unless she can shrink it down to skin tight for a tackle (which so far she can’t).
the light hook I am going to argue is a utility power, her own thought being a mooring line, or possibly a tow line given compared to the other powers how much weaker it is (16 tons is still ALOT but given what the other orbs can do physics breaking wise not as impressive), she is using it creatively because she has limited offensive options; but combat doesn’t seem to be its intended purpose. Like using a chain as a weapon.
Personally, I think the biggest issue with this whole thing is, them trying to get her to pass it, twice, in one day.
If she can get her time under 4 minutes in a single day, heck.. if she could get it under 6 minutes in a single day, that is massive improvement.
There’s no actual time requirement here. No mission she -must- go on tomorrow. Call it a night and hit the course again in the morning. Actual military does this and it would make far more sense than any of the other power-related concerns mentioned so far here.
I’m done. Good universe, bad characters.
Ah, I remember those long, stressful, bastard days fondly. They were hell, but they are designed that way.
You get used to the exhaustion and learn to function and fight through it. Sydney will be put through the fiery furnace of training again and again, purifying her skills until she is the perfect military/police person.
If I’m judging this correctly, it isn’t about the weapon used or the course layout.
Sydney/Halo’s origin is non military human, they know she has a shield, PPO, etc.
But she still needs to identify friend or foe in a battlefield as soon as possible, the gun is merely a way to have her train under pressure with minimal risk to the building she is in.
Remember they are unaware of the full details of her Squiddly battle, which seemed to have our ADHD lead character under near similar pressure conditions, this is the training she should have received before said battle & would have had she not been stuck/left behind.
If she realises this then she will go out of her way to go faster.
Oh and maybe her glasses upgrade read neural input from her temples, which would then allow them to activate targeting with any weapon, be that Nth tech or a custom pistol.