Grrl Power #862 – Pew and pew again
When Peggy says “the course changes” she just means that most of the pop-up targets have either a civvie or bad guy option. The course doesn’t rearrange itself. No Shi’ar tech holo-suite danger room for Arc-SWAT quite yet.
I think the most impressive thing about Sydney’s time in the course today (this literally took all day, far more than the seven tries show on this page. It’s like 9:30 PM now) is that she did manage to radically improve her time without actually shooting herself in the leg. Peggy’s been keeping a real close eye on Sydney’s trigger discipline all day.
Sydney’s actually still mostly afraid of guns, which is part of the reason she’s so slow. If anything, she’s too good with trigger discipline. She had been trying to make up a little time with her reloads, which led to the sequence in the middle of the page there, and that wasn’t the only time she messed up a reload because she was rushing.
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I’m not sure I understand people’s objections to this form of training for Sydney. In fact, most of the arguments I’ve seen so far are probably the biggest reasons FOR this level of training.
Sydney is a civilian. No, she *WAS* a civilian. The moment she signed those papers, that changed. And she is *woefully* behind. She needs to get up to speed, and that needs to happen fast. Because, as she’s already shown, she’s a really good asset in the field. And this will make her a better asset in the field.
The next argument I’m seeing is ‘so unfair!’. So? Life isn’t fair. Your enemies aren’t going to be fair. The circumstances aren’t going to be fair. Your enemy is going to, if they are even remotely competent, going to try to ambush you by surprise, from behind, at the worst possible time. Fair doesn’t happen in real life.
Then there’s ‘why does she need training with a gun?’. Answer: Because she is being issued one. And there is *nothing* more dangerous to you or your teammates than someone who doesn’t know how to use the weapon they are issued. This needs to get drilled bone-deep, muscle-memory reflex, so that she *doesn’t* have to think about it. Yes, she already has lethal weapons in several of her orbs, but a gun is no less lethal to most targets. Also from the perspective of anyone who might be her teammate… if I don’t know she’s trained to that degree with her sidearm, that’s going to make me hesitate to count on her, which is going to cost me, possibly at a critical moment. Which could cost lives. Her running and passing the course means everyone can rely and depend on her without needing to think about it. Considering her ADHD reputation, that’s doubly important in her case.
And as far as why Peggy is being so hard on her… partly as a rite of passage and common bonding experience, but mostly because, as I mentioned before, Sydney has to get this down to muscle-memory reflex level. You *have* to train to that degree to achieve that. Been there, done that. But you know that whole saying about ‘practice makes perfect’? Wrong. Completely wrong. Practice incorrectly and you train your body for failure. *Perfect* practice makes perfect. You have to do it *right* enough times for it to sink in. Which is why Peggy is making her do it once more ‘to prove it wasn’t a fluke’. Partly because Sydney needs the drill, partly to reinforce doing it right, and partly because if Sydney can do it while already this tired, it proves that she can do it when she *isn’t* that tired. Because, yanno, missions can be a grind. They can get exhausting. You need to know you’ve still got good target discrimination and trigger discipline even when you’re dragging heels. So you need to train to that level of exhaustion. Because you’re going to need it.
Honestly… this is not only ‘correct’, this is, if anything, understating. Sydney came in as a civvie. She needs more training, not less, to catch up with everyone else, most of whom seem to be from other military branches. She needs to be pushed like this, not just so her teammates know she can still hack it like that, but so *SHE* knows it herself, because she’s *done* it. That’s a level of confidence that you need in her new career. Peggy is an outstanding DI, mad props to her for taking even a recruit like Sydney and getting these kind of results from her.
Plus the focus and discipline it takes to pass this course is still valuable for her to have even when not using a firearm – and bullets and popups are cheaper training aids than a course with the necessary targets and safety measures for her to use something like the PPO.
Anyone who thinks “fairness” is an applicable argument to any kind of training is already missing the point pretty hard. I don’t think all the extra stuff about this being a military situation really matters if they don’t even get that.
the fairness remark is clearly aimed at me, and is being mis-read as well as disregarding later comments consenting to the points as to why Sidney specifically is under going these trials.
I was responding to someone who said using the lighthook to retrieve her dropped magazine would disqualify her, and previous pages with comments implying supers wouldn’t be allowed to use their powers such as enhanced speed; to be “fair” to the non-super recruits. Which made no sense seeing as such powers are part of their skills so yes a speedster should be using their speed in this as it tests how well their reactions match up with their speed.
-a conversation started back when the time completion hierarchy chart was shown.
wish I could edit (maybe aimed at me), this is not the same person *at least not same user name* that responded to me on page 1 who has responded to a post without reading later posts.
wish I could edit, just realized this is not the same person who replied to me on page 1.
so maybe not aimed at me specifically; there was a discussion thread. The point wasn’t it being unfair to Sidney, but the implication supers were being required to not use their powers (like speed) in this course to be “fair” to the non-super members.
I must have missed the arguments saying this is unfair to Sydney, seen that it comes across as neutering her options in the scenario to come across as “fair” to non-super powered recruits; which makes no sense.
Yes the training makes sense, I can admit that, discipline, aiming, reaction time, all good. Just the idea that she can’t use any powers as being excused “because” its only fair to other recruits who don’t have power to run the course on equal footing is a goofy argument. Like telling an Olympic marathon runner they have to wear lead boots and be timed so they are on equal footing with non athletes.
Everything else though on why to take this course this way checks out though.
Exactly! Make her run the course WITH her powers, and it would make total sense. The only reasonable argument for training with a gun instead of PPO I’ve seen is that it’s cheaper — which is true, but Archon seems to be very well funded (judging by Sydney’s paycheck at least), so it doesn’t hold much water.
They still know next to nothing about her orbs. Who’s to say they won’t up and decide to crap out at the worst possible time, leaving her with nothing but her gun?
they trust them enough to bus them down the depths of cold icy high pressure ocean into an underground cave for the vault
Answer: Because she wasn’t issued her powers, she was issued a firearm. Because she needs a force level somewhere between ‘laughable hand to hand skills’ and ‘Light Orb or full-up PPO’. If she is issued a firearm, she needs to be trained in the use of that firearm. Full stop.
The fact that her target discrimination and other skills she’s developing right now will also carry over to her orbs is a bonus, and not an insignificant one. However, as to why she has to do this with just a gun and not with her powers? Because she was issued a firearm and needs to demonstrate basic competence with said firearm prior to being permitted in the field with it.
I… don’t really get why you don’t understand this.
They are civilians that never stepped foot into a MEPS center and most likely not interested in firearms in general or to the degree that they would seek this info out to learn it.
The reason that all supers need to complete the SWAT training classes without using their powers is the unwritten rule that every super has their kryptonite.
If a super’s powers are negated during an op, they will still be a fully trained SWAT officer, and therefore an asset, rather than being as useless to the team as a cosplaying civilian.
Plus, if they pass their training without powers, then no one (including themselves) can say that they only passed because of their powers.
She can use her powers.
She just can’t use her orbs.
Honestly even using her glassess is ‘cheating’.
I am sure that when Peggy find out about her glasses and their ‘auto-aim’ function, will make her repeat all the training and fire course with a normal pair of glasses.
One other point (that may be made below). Sydney may be able to fly at Mach 16 (routinely, and not using the wormhole function), but (so far), but here reflexes are still the reflexes of an untrained young adult with severe ADHD. Also all of her powers come from artifacts, and she is limited to the number of artifacts she can use at any one time.
Sydney is **NOT** a super, doesn’t have the reflexes of a super, and may someday have to make correct decisions on which artifact to switch out, and activate it, in the same time (or less) that she had to draw a gun in. This training will definitely help – particularly if she is in a situation where *every* artifact might be overkill abut a 5.7×28 round might be the right solution for the particular job.
Sydneys reflexes were good enough at mach 4 to dodge every single strike of an orbital bombardment. However heightened reflexes during flight might just be a side effect function of the fly orb, like how it cancels out vertigo. As long as she is paying attention at least (ie, looking where she is going so she doesnt fly through a billboard). No reason to not assume the same wouldnt be true for orb side effects at mach 16.
I’m normally pretty contrarian in the comments here, but I’d like to say that I fully agree with you and would like to add something to the bit about practice makes perfect…
You don’t practice till you get it right. You practice till you can’t get it wrong.
> And she is *woefully* behind.
> she’s a really good asset in the field.
Those two statements kinda contradict each other.
The problem is that the orbs already make Sydney AHEAD of everybody else, save for Maxima and maybe Dabbler.
> Answer: Because she is being issued one.
…which now begs for the next question: why was she issued one? Instead of, you know, a prop for intimidation purposes.
And besides, even if we give her a real gun, there is a big difference between gun safety course (which is badly needed, BTW) and this.
> if I don’t know she’s trained to that degree with her sidearm, that’s going to make me hesitate to count on her
Why? There is a number of things that she might help you with, and, surprise, none of them involve a gun. Or would you also hesitate to count on Leon (providing you information) because he wasn’t (probably) trained with a gun?
> She needs more training, not less, to catch up with everyone else
That’s the problem. What we have is a team of individuals with VERY different skills. None of them is EVER going to catch up with ANYBODY else on a team. This is as far from a typical military platoon as it is going to get.
Honestly, I would love to see a scenario where the skills she is trying to develop here are put to good use. Like, for example, in Agents of SHIELD, Daisy regularly does hand-to-hand combat training (although it gets much less focus), and, surprise, actually does hand-to-hand combat, augmenting her natural, quite formidable, powers. In GP-verse, we’ve seen how many super fights? And how many of supers were involved in those? And how many times any of them (of supers) reached for their gun? Right.
> Practice incorrectly and you train your body for failure
That’s the essence of my complaints. I just don’t see how is this kind of practice “perfect” for Sydney, or even “correct”.
She was issued a sidearm, because she’s now in the military
The areas she needs to ‘catch up to everyone else’ in, is in discipline, self-confidence and self-awareness of her capabilities and abilities, and working as a team
It may not be a ‘typical military platoon’ but it is still a military platoon
You seem far to focused on her sidearm and ignoring (deliberately?) the real reason for this exercise: discipline and teamwork (just because it’s not a team exercise doesn’t mean it’s not about working as a member of a team)
I’m focused on a gun, because the comic is focused on a gun. A lot.
OK, I would admit, Sydney’s idea of teamwork is not exactly the best ever, we’ve seen proof of that, but running a firing track alone doesn’t sound like a perfect way of boosting her teamwork skills. If anything, it sounds like a good way to condition her to NOT use her own skill set in a battle.
I remember that scene from the beginning of X-Men: the Last Stand. As ridiculous and over-the-top as it was, and even with Wolverine botching it by, essentially, handling the threat by himself, I think it was much more effective in making them a team. Because it relied on individual skills, showcasing them to others, instead of making everybody do the same thing.
Or that obstacle course in “Phule’s company”: somebody big and strong stays close to the wall, letting others step on his shoulders instead of scaling the wall himself; somebody stays on top of the wall, giving others a hand, somebody tall enough simply walks through the mud pit — and somebody, who is unfit for running the course at all, but is a useful member of the team otherwise, is simply carried by others, all the way from the beginning to the end. And this is even an example of individuals who do NOT differ that much.
And what that movie failed to show, was all the hours each character put into training individually first
Can’t remember what movie it was, can remember the ‘misfit’ team went last in the final competition, and simply had someone go first and set charges at each obstacle blowing them up (or down) and the rest simply jogged to the finish line
Before one can train as part of a team, they must first be trained to be part of a team
Do you not remember Sydney’s attitude at the start of this? Or even after seeing Neca run it?
Those are reasons Sydney is running this course ‘normal’
And again, everyone has had to run it, including Hiro (Maxi has probably done it, about ten times in the same length of time Neca did it, which is why her time is not recorded)
> can remember the ‘misfit’ team went last in the final competition
Um… no. That wasn’t the final competition, and they did not “go last”
> someone go first and set charges at each obstacle blowing them up (or down)
Something like that. Also, someone sneak on the member of the opposite team manning the machine gun and “convince” him not to interfere. And eventually, a “real” military commander admitting that’s how they would do it themselves if it was a real fight, and that’s how they SHOULD have done it themselves that time.
> Do you not remember Sydney’s attitude at the start of this?
Yeah. She was basically treating it as a joke. And my point is that it WAS a joke — they only managed to turn it into a cruel one.
> And again, everyone has had to run it
Probably, which is equally stupid. I’m not saying Sydney should be exempt from something everybody else does; I’m saying that supers — all of them — should have a completely different training program, with individual variations designed for their specific powers (and weaknesses).
Like said, it was a movie (possibly that one with Billy Murray, where he joined the Army because he was broke?), not a book
The Supers do have individualized training: once they figure out what it will entail
They still have to do the same basic training as everyone does (remember, again, when Sydney started? how all members of Archon, including support staff, have to do the track run, they just had to tell the Supers to stop ‘cheating’ {you could see Morph in the background extending his legs to travel further})
Training, all aspects, is not a joke. You think Sydney is the first one who was forced to do the course until they dropped, and then do it again?
A key thing you’re missing about superpowers, MigMit, is that they come in three broad categories: Passive, Activated and Tool-based.
Max, for instance, has both Passive powers (all five of her abilities have a default level that is always ‘on’), and then Activated powers that let her amp up those baseline powers to higher levels. Achilles’ and Anvil’s powers seem to be all Passive–she can’t be not-strong, and he can’t shut down his invulnerability. So such characters would need to do basic training geared to make them use their powers effectively.
Sydney’s, though, are all Tool-based. She MUST have access to the orbs to use them. And for all her power, there are ways to shut down her ability to control the orbs; likewise, there will be times when she has to use different powers than her weapon-based ones. This basic, unpowered training is thus completely necessary. Note that the PPO is actually a bad choice to use against a non-resistant threat–the blast is so strong that even Sydney realized it would be a bad idea to use indoors. If someone’s got a hostage, that’s not a good choice for a weapon, even if you’ve got a clear line of fire–a bullet is way more precise.
And then, yes, once she’s done with that? She’ll need specific training with her powers, as well. But that’s only to come after her baseline training, so that it builds on the basics.
I am wondering… what if they came up against a super who had the power to disable other powers, like Leech. Or who can copy other super-based powers, like Synch or Amazo. In those cases they probably should be training the other recruits… and even Maxima…in a way where they need to sonehow minimize their powers. With maxima she could dump ALL of her stats into something like her plasma beam then run the course. With not just average superpowers… but minimal.
Actually in those scenarios, Sydney would probably be the most valuable person on the team (and Dabbler as she has so many gadgets that are not super based.)
If Vehemence (and death toll for that matter) taught them anything, its that having “active” powers do not mean they should not find a way to train them somehow to minimize those powers, for those with superspeed or the ability to never fatigue or use super adrenaline.
Btw all that being said, the training is good for sydney anyway because of instilling discipline, which will cross over into how she behaves when using the orbs as well (as Faulk said, the training is the leashing).
LEECH! That’s the dude’s name was trying to remember in a previous comment
Personally, that ‘training is the leashing’ may be rubbing people the wrong way because they believe the ‘leashing’ is to Archon
Also believe, Faulk may not have actually meant ‘leashing’, at least not in the most common meaning of the word
Most Aussie elite units believe in “break them so we can make them”. Probably what Faulk had in mind.
When Faulk used the word leashing, he was using it in response to Zephon saying something along the lines of ‘do you really want to unleash this girl to the public?
He was basically meaning ‘make sure that the training gives her more discipline on how she uses her powers responsibly, rather than what they already had seen of her very ‘spontaneous’ reactions to danger. In -that- respect, training with a gun, instead of with her orbs, would probably provide the basics of being responsible. ie, if you’re responsible with a normal gun, you’ll probably be more responsible with a Nth level space gun that you already have regardless of what we do with you.
Yeah, more ‘reigning in’ of her, well, Sydney-ness than chaining her to the post and only letting her off when and where they decide
I think this was partially covered, while most supers have the same default enhanced physiques their powers work differently with no base source no “x-gene”, “meta gene”, or any of the other genes that were so popular in comics in the late 1980s into the 1990’s as the go to; or ether-nano, or astral link or ect…
so a universal power dampener or shut off isn’t possible. Can’t remember the page but Maxima was talking to Sydney about this.
that isn’t to say we can’t possibly run into a life force drainer who can drain through someone’s powers if they are linked to their own spirit, or mental blocker telepath making someone believe their powers don’t work so strongly they temporarily can’t use them; just no mutant collars or one guy like Leech could shut down all supers (of course that said did Leech’s powers work on non-mutants? pretty sure they didn’t work on aliens or magic), remember if irritating people his powers shut down Juggernaut in X-3 because Juggernaut’s powers aren’t supposed to be mutant in origin.
Uh. Dude. No offense, but like… This is basically equivalent to Boot Camp. (In the vaguest possible way, anyway.)
Every member of the Military goes to Boot Camp and gets the exact same training (differing per branch, of course), before going off to their specialized training based on what section they choose to serve in. A Mess Chef, an Engineer, and an Infantryman will all have different specialized training, but the core training is still the same.
To address the points in order:
You can be an asset to the team and still woefully behind. These are by no means mutually exclusive points. Or did you miss the point where this will make her an even *better* asset to the team? She put someone in a full-body cast *by accident* in the Super Brawl. That’s exactly the sort of mistake that this training will prevent going forward. If she did that with the PPO, or worse, accidentally ground-slammed a civilian or victim instead of the villain who was using them as a human shield, that would be a catastrophic problem. Not just for her personally, she’d be beating herself up over it worse than any chewing out from a superior, not just from a PR perspective, which would be a nightmare in and of itself, but from a confidence perspective, both people having confidence in her and her confidence in herself. This is exactly the sort of training that builds the discipline that prevents those sorts of problems.
Why is she issued a gun? Several reasons. First, as was pointed out earlier in the comics, because a gun is a method of force application that people *understand* bone deep. She grabs an orb, unless you’re REALLY familiar with her orbs and their colors, you don’t know if she just grabbed the PPO or the Lightbee, there’s a point of confusion. Which is solved by her pointing a firearm instead. Second, to have a level of force somewhere between ‘using the orbs as physical objects to batter people with’ and ‘Lighthook or PPO’. This fills that niche. Third, because she is Military and so is issued a Firearm by regulation. Everyone in the military is issued a firearm. Without exception. Yes, even the cooks. Even the desk clerk sitting in the office shuffling paperwork. And now, including Sydney.
For your next point… I’m having trouble with your logic. If someone has a firearm on their person, and doesn’t know how to use it, doesn’t have Target Discrimination down… I don’t give two farts what their other skills are, I’m going to be worried that she’s gonna accidentally shoot me in the back while doing something else entirely. Also, false conflation. I’m assuming at this point that a) Leon is actually fully trained on the sidearm he has been issued (since he may be a computer geek, but he’s a *military* computer geek), and b) he’s not actually a field operative. He’s been in the field once, mostly by improv. Which is WHY he’s almost certainly trained on his firearm. Because stuff happens, and sometimes even support personnel end up on the front lines. I cannot imagine Leon not at least qualifying on the range. Honestly, I’m mildly surprised they’re just clearing her on a handgun instead of an M4A1 Carbine. Except that, with the police actions ARC-SWAT is likely to be deployed in, the handgun is more readily accepted as a ‘carry’ domestically. And for anything more serious than handgun range, she’s got backups already.
For your next point, you’re making a false dichotomy, or rather, you’re missing the point. You have to have personal competence… *in addition* to teamwork. That will come later, when you aren’t more likely to teamkill your buddies. Your comparison to Phule’s Company is false on MANY levels. He was specifically running the Confidence Course (i.e. the obstacle course) as a unit and grading the unit as a whole. Which is cool and all, but keep in mind that these are all people who at least passed Basic before being deployed. We aren’t there yet. We will get there, don’t worry. But before we get to that point, we need to know she can hold a firearm without accidentally discharging it into a teammate. That’s where we are right now. But don’t worry, I’m sure we’ll get there once Sydney qualifies on personals.
And for your last point… I’m going to have to respectfully disagree again. Look at the times, they’re going down. She’s making improvements. Now she just needs to get them *consistently* down. Hence why Peggy wants her to run it one more time. Before you can practice with perfection, you have to achieve perfection, or at least competence. Now that competence has been achieved, we can now proceed to the ‘now do it many times over just like that’ drill.
You’re more patient than I am. Very nicely written.
I agree, she should have the basic training for any military officer. Even if it’s just for show (Because seriously, in any situation that requires the use of a firearm, her main instinct should realistically be grabbing the shield orb), she should carry for the sake of being taken seriously. This training does also aid in reaction time, enemy identification (Which she certainly needs), etc, etc…
HOWEVER, This should be where the gun specific training ends. It is literally detrimental for her to use any firearm instead of her powers. This goes doubly for a two-handed gun such as the M4A1. She requires a completely empty palm and that means, in a change of situation, she would either have to waste crucial time to holster or drop a loaded weapon in exchange for an orb (Safety or not, terrible idea). She should *really* be trained in a situation where her powers are the focus and a place designed for long-range/ flying powers should *realistically* have been made for this purpose. (Not just for her, but ANYONE under these categories)
All that aside, I think that this type of training can *also* have some downsides. I think the main one would be for her to learn the habit of going for the gun instead of the orb. Pretty much all her recent training for far has outright forbidden the use of her powers and I think this could equally, if not more so, be detrimental to her service on the field.
Again, I can get behind this training as a baseline, but as soon as people start saying it’s “Crucial” to her to be able to use a gun for her team to trust her, it’s not… It really isn’t… Even if I grant that it is, this *still* isn’t completely helpful as she doesn’t know practically anything about aerial gunfights and while cover is nice, she can fly… and has the best cover known to the galaxy (that we know of) floating above her head 24/7. With powers as nuclear as hers, it should be a top priority to AT LEAST learn the basics of pyrotechnics and how best to mitigate property damage as well as testing her limits (or what her last orb even DOES). The start of basic training or not, a military organisation focused around supers should be more streamlined for this kind of thing.
Your reasoning here seems too focused. Consider the saying “when all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.” Sydney’s job is now to be a federal-level police officer, not some generic super-hero. Specialized training with her orbs is necessary, but good training will include every tool that is useful for her field position, be it pepper spray and a TASER or remembering that her lighthook will let her carry a mini-gun and its ammo. Training with a pistol will also instill some habits for when she moves to her orbs, but with a tool that others can more readily monitor wile she is learning.
Next, there’s not really such a thing a “baseline” with weapons training. Use it or lose it. While Sydney will not be in a standard military “deployed or in training” loop, she can expect routine training for all her tools to maintain and improve her proficiency. As they are spec ops group, and I doubt there are any plans to have ARCSwat do any kind of patrolling, they will have significantly more focus and time for training. Add the standard military thinking of “know the job above you as well as your own,” and Sydney will definitely be included in the team exercises that everyone using firearms run.
Continuing, it is ABSOLUTELY crucial that Sydney be trained with her weapons: as a former service member (not infantry) I can say there is a world of difference between being familiar and training to proficiency. I straight-up told an infantry friend that he was better off a man short on his fire-team than filling with someone from my field, simply because our training included, but was not focused on, enemy engagement.
For your last point about Sydney’s tools, I remind you that she only has two hands and direct you here: https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-10-02
While my wording may have been slightly off (Mainly using the word baseline as that’s apparently not the best way to describe it, as you said), I mainly feel like they’re ignoring her powers too much. As you mentioned, training should encompass all of her tools, including the gun that she is assigned as part of her job. That’s my problem… She *hasn’t* got training with all her tools. Yes, there have been outings to test her speed and other occasions where the orbs have had *limited* power gauging. Despite that, I feel like they’ve neglected to show that restricting the use of her powers this much may, in fact, cause those skills to atrophy or become isolated. Or worse, the skills will develop without supervision like they did when she was stranded. In the same way that you said that a gun is a good metric for seeing how she’s improving in multiple areas (Completely agree by the way), there is only so far that will go. She can literally open an untraceable wormhole… If she doesn’t know how that works past a basic explanation, she could, in theory, destroy the planet by accident.
I originally wanted to use the metaphor that it’s like giving a character wings and not telling them how not to get shot in them but honestly, I think it’s close to a character having an unknown explosive on their back. Yeah, it could have a bunch of safety features preventing it from blowing up on them… But on the other hand, it could bend spacetime and send us out of orbit. I know Sydney can’t be *too* much of a special case for the sake of story-telling, but I seriously worry that her powers are being taken too lightly. (Fortunately, it looks like some certain aliens that saw Maxima destroy a ship may force this development along a bit in the future but that’s just speculation…)
I can’t speak from a military perspective so I’m clearly going to get most of how it works wrong and I believe you when you talk about the importance of training to proficiency (Again, I’m not opposed to this training despite how little I see her using a gun in the future, I just feel like priorities are a little… off).
Ah, you seem to forget Sydney has done this before. Two hands she may have, but floating orbs can swap out much faster than any firearm. https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-665-rock-paper-particle-beam/ ;P (I know this is kind of cheating because it *is* her PPO which can be fired within the shield but I still found the comparison funny enough to bring up).
[ …which now begs for the next question: why was she issued one? Instead of, you know, a prop for intimidation purposes. ]
Don’t underestimate the intimidation purposes.
If I could find the earlier strip, I would. Maybe someone else could. (Heck, maybe it wasn’t this web comic, but I’m 99% sure it was). One of the powereds pointed a finger or whatever at Sydney who wasn’t intimidated at all even though she could have been blasted into kingdom come. Then the same person pointed a gun at her and she did a *gulp*.
The orbs are not intimidating. They are more powerful, certainly. But they are not intimidating.
Intimidation can get someone to stop what they are doing without a fight.
Ah. Here we go! Sydney asked the same question: “Why do we carry guns.”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-327-ask-a-self-evident-question/
Bravo.
Can we just pin this post to stop people from making idiotic arguments.
Won’t work, many don’t even read the comments before making idiotic comments (and that’s even when there is a single page to read)
or reply to an earlier comment ignoring the string of comments below it that already covered what they have to say making them look more like they are trying to poke the bear than add to the conversation.
This. Precisely and entirely this.
No 420 joke? Nothing more thoroughly drives home just how exhausted Sydney was while taking this test.
Sydney is young and has presumably benefited from the PT she has done to date but still is probably far from peak condition. She is also a bit…dramatic, so it is hard to tell how tired she really is. There is the objective of getting her to push her limits and function when she is tired. Unless the orbs have a stim pak function she is never going to have the endurance of most of the people who are inherently super. So, I wonder where her point of diminishing returns is. I know for myself that there is a point where the mistakes vs work accomplished curve takes a marked downward turn.
Poor Sydney, to say that must mean she is beyond tired. I wouldn’t call it a fluke but I would retest her later on after she don’t look so tired she would sleep on that floor thre.
That’s… kinda what the hard training is for: as someone above already pointed, in the field, there are no breaks because she is tired, when she is tired is a good chance the bad guys will attack unexpectedly from ambush and she’s going to have to be able to respond correctly, and, way more importantly, her team members are going to have to be able to rely on her to respond correctly and not ‘accidentally’ blow them to Shitistan because she reached for her PewPewOrb without checking her surroundings
Is this the same reasoning you would use if a doctor was operating on you? Do you want someone that is falling down tired to care for you, or someone that is aware of what they are doing? Fatigue poisons impair reasoning and reaction speeds. Training to work while tired is only effective to a certain point, after that the person is making too many mistakes and mistakes can kill.
almost this exact logic is why for years and years residents stood 12+ hour shifts in a hospital. as far as i know that is still the case. so yes we as a society have demanded that our doctors be able to perform tired. because the epidemic won’t stop just because the doctors are tired.
For interns and externs it’s a lie …
It’s not for that it’s only to covert money issues…
General health of population is in our political system much less important than than the patrimonial increase of les than 1% of population.
Public health according to the fithy rich is complete waste of money.
And our politic system beeing a plutocracy…
Choices are made and concealed behind this type of lies …
The lie of Trickle-down economics is an exemple… The first indutrial revolution in UK had degraded the living condition of the majority of population – a batlant exemple is tha the average heigth o a male in 1600’s is two inches higher than teh average heigth in 1800-
Growth retardation is a sing of insufficient food …
Rinico,
Funny that is the EXACT standard the WORLD chooses for Doctors in ER’s, EMT & Medics, Police, Firefighters, and until very recently truck drivers
let alone SOLDIERS….of which Sydney is now one……Not letting her use the PPO & Shield is to make her uncomfortable and add STRESS without having to shoot at her.
it is amazing how good shooters go to crap in a force on force shooting drill, and or Asian martial artists when they get hit & Hurt in a fight
This sort of training is so they can perform in their sleep, and the nurses are there to catch any mistakes
thanks to her orbs sydney could be employed in many situations, i wonder how she compares against a MG emplacement (shield + ppo set to rapid fire with the flight orb shes like a highly mobile instant emplacement sure she’d be easier to spot but the bubble shield makes the concept of supressing her fire sort of moot when she can saturate your cover potentially indefinitely or at least until the cover has been mulched)
I wonder if some of the upgrades might incorporate some form of cruise — not THAT Cruise, dammit! — control?
Orb upgrades, of course…
one of the shield levels definatly would. i’d laugh if the mystery orb is auto/macro set-up / medbay deal and she needed to be holding the both orb’s to access its auto/macro functions
I can imagine it now. Krona finds the node labelled ‘Cruise Control’, Sydney selects it for her next level-up, and nothing appears to have changed – but miles away, on the set of Mission Implausible, the lead actor is acting even stranger than usual…
She’s getting a lot of training in a short time…but did anyone tell her that slow is smooth, and smooth is fast? Think smooth.
Random thought: I hope they have power active versions of this. Especially for Sydney, since her orbs have psychological effects on her : the flight orb removes fear of heights, I’m guessing shield removes other fears. I wonder what impact that would have on her times.
this is actually an issue with ‘classified’ powers. in order to practice, train, and even explore them Sydney has to be in a space where she can do so safely and in a concealed space. although Sydney with Cora’s help could find something like the stargate SG-1 beta site, given that they have exactly 1 stardrive currently, i’d be really reluctant to try that.
Peggy needs to slacken off a bit. She seem to think teaching Sydney guns is about making her dangerous enough for Criminals.
It is the opposite. It is to give Sydney a option that is [i]less dangerous[/i] then the PPO.
Sydney is a superhuman. With a Range Attack power. Taking her gun away only makes her [b]more[/b] dangerous.
There is some argument that Syney needs to be solid enough with the gun so she actually uses it. Otherwise she would have to default to the PPO or stay pacifist even when a bit of threath could have defused the situation.
But if Peggy overdoes it, Sydney will evolve a hate for the gun from all those training excercises.
Just in case no one remembers. Episode 327 explains the “why” of guns and gun training.
I don’t care what 327 says, it’s still stupid to have her training with a firearm. It was stupid on page 327, and it’s stupid now.
Reaction timing with a GUN or the PPO count as the same as does the FRIEND or FOE identification training when tired.
Gunshot to a wooden target – Oops it WAS an innocent.
When training, is practically the same as:
“Monster!!! Arghhh…” PPO nuke – Oops it WAS an innocent (or ally).
Only a lot less messy.
With the gun/WEAPON* training you have safety when not in use, reaction timing – identifying a VALID** target, removing the safety (if necessary), aiming & firing.
* I suspect they are using a pistol as both it and the PPO are both single handed, handheld ranged WEAPONs, yes the range and damage are different, but the time to hand & reaction timings should be near identical.
And the most important part of all that?
** NOT killing an innocent or ally when tired, just because you CAN fire a WEAPON* in their direction, doesn’t mean you should.
Sydney should’ve said, “A pox on thee….!”
Awww. You forgot little Tiffany with the quantum physics books.
I actually meant to put her in. Even clipped a screenshot for reference, but yeah, eventually it slipped my mind as I was working on these pages.
Bullet in little Tiffany’s head.
I’m thinking, y’know, eight-year-old white girl, middle of the ghetto, bunch of thugs and criminals, this time of night with quantum physics books? She about to start some sh**. She’s about eight years old, those books are WAY too advanced for her. If you ask me, I’d say she’s up to something. And to be honest, I’d appreciate it if you eased up off my back about it.
Think we need to wait for whatever passes as “Advanced training” to deal with this security nightmare… That’s children in general, probably including child warriors. Not just a security nightmare, I don’t know any soldier who would be comfortable with it.
Don’t get me wrong, if a gun’s being pointed at me, I have a good reason to want the holder dead or quadriplegic. But doing that to child is… wrong.
I’m just quoting Agent J’s line from Men in Black :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3hAVT2sDqQ
Or do I owe her an apology?
+1 internet for you:)
I’m a little confused about Sydney’s status – I thought the point was it was to integrate military types (maxima, Hero…) with non military types (Math, dabbler…) so it wasn’t so ridged as a full military group but regimented enough to keep the non military in line. I thought Sydney was more of a non military type that just needed to have enough regimentation to keep her from going vigilante on people with no accountability. You are moving her more and more to be full military with this boot camp. (I just can’t see Math doing something like this Dabbler might for shits and giggles, but he and Dabbler are both too independent to go through something so forced as basic training)
ARCHON is a military organisation. This has been explicit for the entire run of the comic. Sydney is a soldier-in-training.
A soldier meant for police work, but still a soldier.
You… do know that a ‘traditional’ military group has both Combat and Non-Combat (believe those were the terms you were looking for) members, correct?
Not sure if you are aware of a classic TV sit-com called M*A*S*H? It was about a military field hospital unit during the Korean war (interesting knugget: the guy who was constantly trying to get kicked out actually served in that war, guess which character), and even though they were primarily medics, they were army medics, which meant they all had to go through the same basic training as the soldiers they patched up, including firearms training (yes, even little Radar was trained in the use of firing a weapon)
But would they if Hawkeye could lift an entire platoon with his mind? Or if Houlihan could teleport, or if Hunnicutt could make clones of himself? People are treating this group like it’s just a military unit, it isn’t. It’s a team filled with extraordinary abilities, some with near invulnerability, or super sonic speed.
And people are trying to treat this group like the X-Men, forgetting (or deliberately ignoring) all the training they did in the Romper Room, including the basic crap without powers (or at least turned down as far as they could go)
Even someone with near invulnerability needs to be able to play well with others, least of all, knowing that not everyone has their same near invulnerabilityness or move as fast as the speedster
I’m just gonna point this out, but doesn’t using a gun immediately put Sydney at a disadvantage? Like ok in an ideal situation what? She pulls out her gun, most likely with two hands? Intimidates the perpetrator, and then what? Shoots him? Oh no he has enhanced reflexes, or invulnerability, and he’s coming right for her! Quick gotta drop the gun and grab the shield or- welp now she’s dead?
I honestly think this is more about teaching her discipline in general than actual field strategy.
I think this is more about discipline than about field strategy.
For example… Batman knows how to use guns.. All types of guns. And I don’t mean Batman’s father from the Earth where Bruce died and his mom became the joker and his dad became Batman. I mean New Earth and DCAU Batmans. He doesnt use them (okay fine, in the Zack Snyder movie he used them), but he knows now, and he respects the danger they present. He mentioned this the first time he went up against Deadshot in Batman: Gotham Knights also.
Here’s the clip from Gotham Knight btw. Batman’s opinion on guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHA5y6Q-h54
Like don’t get me wrong I absolutely believe that Sydney need gun discipline, but not because she’s part of a paramilitary group, but because she is literally a danger to herself and others.
It’s not the gun discipline she is learning
Read the posts just on this page to find out more
It’s more about discipline in general. She recognizes a gun as a dangerous weapon, whereas she might not automatically associate her powers in the same way. They’re trying to ingrain in her responsibility when handling something with deadly potential, so that it will hopefully transfer to ALL things she can do with deadly potential.
Not to mention, unless it turns out that the PPO has auto-targetting, it’s probably a good idea for her to be able fire a gun accurately, because that aiming ability will probably also help a lot with the PPO as well (and probably less dangerous in a training session than using the PPO from the get-go.
Ok so have her use her orbs in the training, if the deal is to teach her discipline and responsibility, then using the actual tool she will use the most on the field Would be more beneficial, heck I’m not even talking about the ppo, does her forcefield absorb projectiles or redirect them? Might need to know that so she doesn’t accidentally kill someone getting shot at! Or how to disarm and restrain someone with her light hook, her primary strength Is versatility, with a suite of incredibly varied powers, I mean after this what are they gonna to teach her sword fighting? Horse riding?
If you want to teach someone to use a tank that they own, wouldnt you first want to make sure that they know how to drive a car?
I’m pretty sure from previous occasions where she was shown using it, that if the PPO has auto-targeting, she hasn’t bought that feature yet. Though maybe she did on the Alari homeworld, and didn’t realize it, because she was getting pretty good at potting fighters.
Yeah, like I mentioned in a previous post a few days ago, I hope auto-targetting is a feature she’ll be able to eventually buy so she can do this course in 15 seconds :)
Which will still not be as fast as Maxi
Yes but it will be compared to everyone not using superspeed :)
Sydney needs to also be able to function if the orbs fail
You mean like if she can’t get a hold of them? Like if she has her hands occupied with a kind of unnecessary side arm? But seriously though that argument could be made if there were any inclination to believe that could happen but why assume?
I have a choice to make. I have no cupcakes in my bag, but the offer is ten dozen. There are no different size bags in town. So, walk on, or smash 120 cupcakes into my bag?
This is what happens when you’re in a hurry.
… I have no cupcakes in my bag which can hold about 1 dozen, but …
Guess Peggy is also training Sydney’s endurance. A good amount of time on a normal range can be tirersom, this is just as much a physical exercise as much as a test of reflexes awareness at this point. Though I can see why Peggy is pushing her so much, adrenaline and fatigue can screw with you regardless of ADHD and Sydney has already been tossed into life-or-death situation she wasn’t prepared for.
Jesus Christ you people way over think this. Comics have long since held the torch for not making sense. I just enjoy it for the writing, the humour and the occasional actions scenes. I also did superpowers in general. It’s getting too heated for no ret in here lol.
Ugh, stupid autocorrect. I mean I “dig” superpowers. Not “did”. Hate my phone sometimes.
I saw several comments on fatigue during training and causing mistakes. Adding my 2 cents, as one who has experienced fatigue in various facets of life. I would like to point out, if you’re going to make fatigue mistakes, best make them during training. This training will help you identify when you are experiencing fatigue (and hopefully, remember the 1,2, … 20? civilians you potted during training), then put yourself on the sideline until you have recovered from fatigue. Good training is multifaceted and can be brutal. Complain all you want during training. Remember, the enemy gets a vote in real action, so you may not be able to sideline during fatigue, but at least you will remember it’s effects and hopefully can compensate.
Training to handle herself competently and do valid target discrimination under conditions of fatigue seems like an excellent idea. Because fatigue is a thing that happens, and you don’t know ahead of time when you’re going to have to handle yourself competently and do valid target discrimination.
Training her not to jump or panic when a gun goes off is valuable. Because sometimes guns go off nearby. Teaching her to respect guns as a lethal weapon is valuable. Because people are occasionally going to point them at her and then, in addition to not panicking, she needs to have some realistic idea of what’s a reasonable response. This course is where she gets a good idea what bullets do and (later) what they penetrate, so important clues like not using a car door for cover will be there in her mind when she needs the clues in an instant because eg, both hands are busy, or one is mangled, etc.
There have been good points, valid points and nonsensical points made.
I shall now add my depreciated two cents here.
1) My root question here is – is the team a military force or a police force in the non-American definition of police?
2) Guns only have one purpose – Kill things and they are so very efficient at it when not considering supers.
3) Guns are a core part of modern American Entertainment Culture so those of us outside that culture have mostly taken it as a blind spot of those who reside in that country and take it as a given.
There is a reason why Star Trek the original series went with Phasers and Disruptors.
Phasers were adjustable and meant to incapacitate while Disruptors only had the one setting of kill. This was to clearly separate and clearly distinguish for the audience the good guys from the bad guys because bad guys always killed or threatened to kill.
17 panels again – no record broken. Granted, seven of the are very similar.