Grrl Power #825 – Punch practice
I had a much longer fight scene planned between Ren and Max, but this more or less gets the point across. The only thing missing is Max giving Ren the occasional jab to amp him up. Remember he has super adrenaline – basically he starts at like 10x the boost of a normal human, and it ramps up from there. They haven’t discovered if he has an upper limit yet, which is partially the point of the exercise they’re doing now. That’s what all the fanfare in the back is, everyone is betting on whether or not he can actually connect with Max.
It’s got to be a weird job where you’re encouraged to try and punch your boss in the face.
On the previous page, a lot of people commented that Sydney ought to whack the Punchomatic 6000 with the lighthook, and here you go. Sydney probably knew she couldn’t really punch it through the wall, but she certainly didn’t expect to come in seventh.
People were trying to figure out where the rest of the team ranked. I had originally planned to put names in the triangles but they were way too small. Hiro and Stalwart are way up there, obviously. I wasn’t actually sure where to place Anvil though. She can hit pretty hard normally, but if she absorbed enough kinetic energy beforehand, she could maybe even outpunch Max.
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“Bull”, and yet we know her lighthook has enough strength tto lift and toss cars with little effort.
The thing she should do is whip the target. But this isn’t a measure of her powers but physical strength and knowledge. These machines are pre-rigged against you automatically.
How does the pre-rigging work for this?
You’re supposed to think hitting it harder is the correct method. It never is unless you have an obscene amount of strength. Carnival attractions deal with this effect all the time. Ricardo explains the math behind this perfectly and leaves out one tiny bit. Missing the perfect spot makes this entire process useless and will minimize your score. This of this slash as a lever / Where do you hit it for maximum effect from the left? Now the right? She’s currently hitting middle. Half your force is lost immediately.
Since this machine is for getting an actual score and not fleecing rubes, it’s very unlikely that it’s “rigged”.
I do suspect that the lighthook could score higher, but Sydney just isn’t doing it the right way this time.
She basically just balled it up into an extra large fist and whipped like a flail at the target with her own physical strength. That’s not going to increase the results all that much.
Of course there is the possibility that you need to have tons of force to score “Bull” on that meter, since it can handle a hit from Maxima, I wouldn’t be surprised if each ranking is getting exponentially higher.
If this is the case, no normal human strength human is going to go a lot higher anyway, and this whole thing has been a bit of a prank on her.
Agreed. Archon wants results, not quarters.
I think Sydney was just using some “English”, and her movements have nothing to do with how hard the Lighthook can hit. She didn’t use it for brute damage so we don’t have a direct comparison, but she was able to control the Lighthook completely without moving a muscle while she was paralyzed. There is a small amount of “feedback” as we saw her dragged by Vehemence when he grabbed the Lighthook and pulled, but he was so strong at that point that if it was a 1:1 relationship Sydney would have gone flying without the flight orb, so it can’t be a direct feedback.
She is certainly the physically weakest superhero. Even a super with zero enhanced strength has the advantage of a perfect human physique. Sydney can’t help but be the lowest score, and even years of training isn’t going to change that. So yeah, having her hit the Punchmeter 1000 is pretty much a waste of time.
Reading through again and although this is an old comment it makes me wonder…
If the lighthook is designed with psychological feed back, the user can if they want to/think about it let themselves be pulled. So maybe a friendly husky could pull her up a hill if she wanted it too, and Vehemance dong his “OLE!” was so convincing that she thought she should trip from that.
Ultimately punching is not about strength, but speed. Remember that (F)orce = M(ass) x V(elocity), maxing out the Mass (your weight) is what you’re trying to do by twisting your hips and shoulders when you punch. Let’s say you always do that, the only other variable is speed (velocity), so the faster you can move your fist, the harder it hits. Strength (being able to lift huge weights) does not factor in.
in this case though, m=1
with a +/-1 error margin
Pedantic correction. F(kin)=½*m*V^2. Ricardo is right and has points.
Pedantic correction to your pedantic correction. That’s kinetic energy (E_kin), not force. The force of the punch comes from your fist hitting the target and decelerating rapidly.
Even more pedantic correction: the usual symbols for mass and velocity are lowercase m and v. Uppercase M may be used to gravitational mass (as opposed to inertial mass – the theory of relativity says these are indistiguishable). Uppercase V however is conventionally used for volume, and mass times volume squared makes little sense.
The reason I come to this comment section while skipping most others is the fact that we get nice scientific side bits about the real physics of things.
(F)orce = (M)ass x (A)cceleration. Acceleration, not velocity. Mass x Velocity is momentum, which is something else.
Mass isn’t the same as weight, although they’re close enough at Earth sea level.
Also, your mass is your mass and doesn’t change. (Well, unless you’re moving at relativistic speeds.) Twisting your hips and shoulders doesn’t change your mass, it changes the velocity of your fist. The higher the initial velocity, the greater the deceleration (i.e. negative acceleration) will be when your fist impacts the object and stops.
Strength factors in to an extent, since more fast-twitch muscle means you can move your fist faster and therefore produce greater deceleration on impact.
Since we are on this fantastic discussion, I wanted to add that the key thing isn’t necessarily the pure force but actually the work done, the total force acted over a distance (force*displacement), which is why the continued follow through of the punch is so important. It allows continued application of force to increase work.
Strength isn’t a factor in force, you say… Only velocity and mass?
Point one: mass is correlated to muscle mass, is correlated to strength. Ergo strength is correlated to force.
Point B: whatever you’re measuring, you have finite distance distance to accelerate in -> finite room to improve velocity, extra fat or a shiny set of brass knuckles won’t help you accelerate faster or hit higher speeds.
the thing is that strength is only a small part of throwing a punch. to deliver a good punch you need a rigid fist delivered with force and speed. A nerf ball and a baseball hitting you at the same speed have very different results. Lots of muscular guys throw lousy punches because they can do force, but not fast, and if they don’t know how to make a rigid fist they are just pushing the target instead of hitting it. We know the lighthook is strong, but we don’t know what its surface feels like, how fast it can travel, or how rigid its shapes are against impact/resistance. Sid could probably throw a harder punch just by willing the orbs to hit the target, possibly several at once.
” Sid could probably throw a harder punch just by willing the orbs to hit the target, possibly several at once.”
That was my thought as well.
to be fair the top level of this machine is rated “MAXIMA” and therefore i would assume that each level of strength has a significantly higher threshhold and mote condensed rate of rising.
The point here is Sydney has no idea how to punch. At all.
She’s got the raw power with the lighthook. She doesn’t have the control.
you know what this means…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueRzA9GUj9c
My personal thought was ‘montage’ from team america world police.
lots of different kinds of bulls though, my dad used to tell about a buffalo bull that tipped over a narrow gauge locomotive in SD
This machine sort of reminds me of some of the equipment that Reed Richards had to build in order for Ben Grimm to get a workout in the Baxter Building. He had to use the strongest metal alloys & powerful electromagnets to give Grimm enough resistance to work with…And even then, when he really pushed himself with it, Ben wound up ripping the electromagnets right out of the floor.
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Does Ren get adrenalin crash? Anyone who has gotten an epipen knows that a rush of adrenalin and the crash that comes after are horrible.
Since he is a super, he can do just fine.
Can confirm epipen…
I do not remember but does the lighthook have different levels?
it currently does not. It could, in theory, have an upgrade in the future because of sydneys skill tree, but nothing extra for the lighthook yet.
Sydney can control the length of the lighthook “line” though, and the only limit on length is apparently how well / strongly sydney can imagine the line.
Sydney’s skill tree has five branches going off of the Tentacle Orb other than the ones which connect it to other orbs. Only four of those branches have any nodes filled, one branch with three nodes filled and three branches with one node filled.
My guess is that the branch with three nodes filled is strength (which should get an exponential increase after the fifth node because the color of the line changes like the flight orb did) and the other three filled branches would be (I suppose) number of tentacles, length, and grippiness respectively.
Who knows?
Fifth tree could be add ons for the light hook. Like a speartip, actual hook, a sticky hand like those toys you find in the wuarter machines.
Or the fifth tree could allow her to use the Lighthook inside the bubble, as that is inline with what we have seen from single pip branches.
I suspect that the “# of tentacles branch might change to “exponent for tentacle complexity” at some point, instead of 1 2 3 4 5 etc… it’s 1 2 4 8 16 or something similar, with the external augmented neural capacity to handle it… and it changes from light hook to light manufacturing facility ;)
Ahh, so it will be able to become a torch?
Reactions 10X human are still pretty slow as it takes about a quarter of a second to react to a visual stimulus, or about a tenth to react to a sound. So reciprocals say that Ren can react to a visual signal in 0.03 seconds or sounds in 0.01.
Actually anything 10X normal human is NBT. It just puts you on the tail of the bell curve, because there is “normal human” in the center of the curve, and way way out on the end of the curve you get limits of human ability which can be 10-15 times the center of the curve. I’m Not A Sprinter, the best I could do a 100 meter sprint is slightly over 10 seconds, my best 400 meters was just under a minute, and I barely squeaked by in my 2 mile run in the army. That’s dead center of the bell curve. Usain Bolt was 9.58 seconds. FloJo set the women’s record at 10.49 seconds which is about what I ran on my stubby legs.
Now I’m on the tail of the curve when it comes to resisting blunt force trauma, the two times I got hit in the crosswalk were 25-35 MPH and I walked away with scrapes, bruises, and torn clothes. The time I got hit riding my bike was even further out on the tail of the bell curve, trending on superhuman, but I was temporarily killed in that wreck, so even for me that one was almost unsurvivable. The statistics on surviving getting hit by a vehicle moving that fast are about 1:1,000,000+/- a few thousand.
actually if you remember – or re-read Rens description of his abilities, it STARTS at about 10x normal, then goes up from their – we don’t know the actual limit on it yet. So it could actually be way more then we think as it first appears
However, i would think that its hard to maintain that state in practical terms, so it would make sense he would have to train it when actually using it. (like in a fight, or watching / using several computers at once)
My personal opinion is I think sydney could get a much higher result if she used the flight orb plus the lighthook. With the safety features we have seen so far in a couple of the orbs, it would be interesting to see if sydney is protected from the theoretical squishing her body would get, and instead she would get to do a battering ram with the insane levels of speed an unbreakable lighhook combo could make
She’s get a higher result if she learned how to punch, instead of assuming how to due to watching action movies.
HUGE difference between watching it, and having a Sensei show you how.
That and maybe she would do better with a palm strike, since the skill required to do one is much lower, and there are much less squishy/compressible parts involved with one.
And if you hit wrong, you have just snapped your entire wrist backwards!
Sydney gets feedback/backlash using the lighthook… Yea let’s not find out if the Doc can regrow a hand/arm…
I think Sydney is developing an ego problem. I mean this as a serious character flaw:
1) Her need to be ‘doing things’ (during the mountain scene where she’s using Achilles as a mine sweeper, rather than letting him just walk into things)
2) Her flagrant disregard for range safety despite being literally told not to twirl the gun.
3) Now her inability to accept her low physical strength on a team that she, herself, has noted is full of extremely powerful (and extremely fit) active military personnel. Did she remember whose team she’s on? Especially given that she had some… ‘humbling’ moments previously with the road reconstruction, where several supers were lifting things she couldn’t budge with the Lighthook.
Of course, I like her. She’s fallible. Makes for a good character. But I don’t think I’ve seen anyone actually point out this budding egotism.
Or its a cartoon like comic, and Sydney provides a lot of the slapstick.
“Developing”? Here‘s Sydney punching Maxima in the stomach and bragging about her “joules per square inch”. Here‘s her claiming to be “totally invincible”. Sydney is intelligent, and knows it’s not all true if she thinks about it, but the thinking part of her mind isn’t in control most of the time. She has a loose relationship with reality. She filters out a lot of things that don’t amuse her. So while she has flaws, I don’t think we’re seeing her develop any new ones.
Sounds like a supervillain in the making.
Supervillain trait missing: Monologue.
Au contraire, she has monologued more than once when nerding out. For example when she got kicked out of the Council because she couldn’t shut up.
Plus, cussing. Sydney could mono-cuss-logue with the best of them.
to be far to halo, she is comparing herself to non, augmented, and post humans, the punching bag is not fair, but i do share her distress over not getting higher then “bull,” i call bs, but then last time she used that power to effect it was in combat and moving at mare then a fair clip to boot, so it might not be the best point or reference
Are we about find out if Maxi’s hair has detangle properties? When its inertia causes it to wrap around Ren’s wrist?
Presumably her force field protects her hair like it protects her clothes. It probably makes it slippery as well, going by the author’s note on page #334.
Why doesn’t she use her flight orb to deliver a Mach 4 Punch ™?
Because she has no idea how to punch. At all.
Look at how she’s hitting the target in Panel Five. There’s absolutely NO power to a hit like that. A proper punch pivots your entire torso to put your body’s weight and momentum into it.
This is also why you’ll never see 60s Batman’s “double punch” in a real fight. In order to punch properly, your other arm is going to be acting as a counterweight, regardless of whether it’s a Jab, Hook or Uppercut.
Only reason the “Double Punch” works for Supes is he’s a flying brick who’s using his flight momentum to get the power… that… and… well.. When Superman throws a real punch, most things or people short of Doomsday and Darkseid would get reduced to a red mist.
Double-punch works fine, if you can ground yourself properly – rather than using your other arm as a counterweight for a circular movement (think “hammer throw”), you need to direct the force in a straight line through your torso and legs, with about 6 sextillion tons of rock for backup (think “shotput”)
One of the things I applauded EGS for was realizing that mid-air punches have a lot less strength and most fighting skills simply won’t work in mid air. Pretty much all the punched you see in Dragon ball Z done while flying would realistically have dramatically reduced strength (like less than their regular jab would have).
Be surprised how much fighting requires grounding, stances, and pushing off the ground with multiple muscle groups and grounding yourself against the reverse momentum (equal and opposite reaction, you want as much force as possible going into your opponent not back into you).
Pretty much flight fighting comes down to momentum, pretty much (flying brick), swoops to build up momentum and then slash with talons, strike at high speed, head butt, tackle, that sort of thing. Battering ram becomes your one option, however…if Sydney uses her flight orb and sends herself minus the shield into that machine…well…she’s not a super with high durability. There is a reason your body is built to only deliver a small percentage of what the muscles “should” be able to deliver. and honestly even if she can find a good speed that won’t automatically break her fingers at the least, she could theoretically have delivered more force with a proper grounded punch, and
the most important part…delivered more than one in quick succession. Swooping requires hit and run tactics if you can’t down your opponent in one strike, however learning to throw a proper punch and other hand to hand combat techniques she could actually fight someone up close if need be.
That’s what I like about Astra, she literally spells it out that her body has almost nothing to do with her strength although she works on it. Even if she was an omega class Ajax she could not pull off most of what she pulls up as a Atlas type because she literally does not have enough mass. Literally her power is channeling her Flight power into her punches, her weightlifting, and her ability to stand imobile (she is literally flying into the ground that she is standing on, and when shes punching an Ajax from a cold start, she is simultaneously flying into the ground and putting the rest of her flight power into standing up and slamming into an Ajax hard enough to actually imbed said Ajax into a wall. )
I’m guessing in order: Maxima, Stalwart, Hiro, then the group of three close to each other is probably Anvil, Dabbler, and Mr. Amorphous, then Sydyne’s Lighthook, then fully combined Harem, then Math (maybe that one’s Ren if he’s on the scale). After that it’s hard to say, though I’d guess Achilles isn’t at the bottom.
I would say Hiro is third and Math is second purely because the machine is a skill game rather than a test of power. A martial artist who focuses properly can smash things that make no sense to be able to smash. Math is capable of out preforming supers without powers. We even go so far as to call him a Vanta black belt in the previous page.
Stalwart is only an Ultra. Math is a Paragon as is Hiro.
If you haven’t already I’d suggest looking into adrenaline overdose when deciding what happens when Ren goes past his limit.
I suspect that the strengthometer has to be something Dabbler provided to Archon. What Earth technology could possibly take a full power hit from Max without taking damage, or at the very least get punched through the wall that the machine is standing up against? The strengthometer would have to have some dæmon technology that absorbs the kinetic energy and evaluates it, without letting it actually transfer into the physical frame of the device.
Many options:
a. The earth has been shown by Vehemence, when he got full power hit by Max and used his momentum transfer spell to transfer the hit to the earth, to be able to handle it, so a few suggestions would be an olympic swimming pool of lead, a deep cozy mine, Anvil, Achilles, Sydney’s shield, Varia(under the right conditions), Vehemence(under the right conditions), an to Max attached dynamo, the ocean, etc.
The reflection of Ren in her face was top notch :D
Obviously she needs to put more points into the lighthook. If it’s anything like the flyball, she’ll jump up several tiers with just one point.
When you posited that theory about Anvil being able to out punch Maxima with enough kinetic energy, my mind automatically went to a scenario where Maxima is temporarily out of control and someone has to try to stop her. Enter kinetically enhanced Anvil but then I thought “Wouldn’t Maxima be too fast for her to hit?” I figure Sydney would end up being the hero of that scenario anyway. LOL!
Don’t forget that Maxima can’t be top ranked in everything all the time. Right now she has her speed/reflexes dialled up high. But in her fight against Vehemence she had to dump everything into defence.
Mind you even her minimum speed/reflexes would probably outclass any attempt Anvil made to actually land a blow. In a fair fight.
But when you have a rogue, you do whatever you have to, in order to counter their advantages. You do not deploy a low power individual against one of the most powerful supers on the planet, not without enough back up to overwhelm Maxima and ensure that Anvil gets to land a knock out blow.
Just hope that circumstances allow that.
If the machine can somehow survive a punch from Maxima, why limit yourself to a light hook. Try shooting lasers at it or something, it’s obviously indestructible :P
Lol.
Kinetic energy delivered from a physical object just isn’t the same thing and accelerated stellar fusion plasma.
(Anybody else remember the star her pew pew seems to be linked with?)
Or unbolt it from the wall and tie it on, as armour. ;-)
Has anyone considered just hooking Maxima up to a turbine and providing the world with unlimited clean, free energy?
Since she has nothing else to do…
Aside from the interruptions by giving her breaks even just for sleeping, a system with a single point of failure like that just isn’t feasible. You need a continuous power source and a massive distribution system, i.e. the power grid – storing the energy in batteries isn’t nearly as efficient until we make some major strides in battery tech. There’s been some interesting ideas in storing raised masses for potential energy as well, but it’s not viable / scalable yet – Max actually could help with something like that by stopping by once a week or whatever to lift a few kilotons up a mountain for her workout.
Hydroelectric dams are very good efficiency-wise, nuclear plants are infinitely better. Sadly both still have some environmental issues to work out.
It’s not unlimited, because she has shown in multiple parts of the comic to have limited amounts of power inside what human use yearly of energy. For example: the time she shoots a Fel ship her blast is told to be several petajoules on an area of a square meter, translated into real world examples is that a serious cold war bomb, not human energy usage.
We don’t know how long she can keep up her powers and only have reason to suspect she can’t hold it for long, since she doesn’t really participate until a big shot is needed implying that she can’t keep shooting(yes, she states she doesn’t, because she wants to train the team, but she would say that too if she were keeping this secret, since this would be obviously top secret, since she is the scare weapon of the team and it would explain, why she isn’t running around in the base, because of deep boredom, since her life happens at, such different speed, so she can cath a bullet)
It’s not free, because Maxima is a very expensive person and if she would be really limited use than it wouldn’t even need to be thermodynamics breaking, since she would have the time to charge her powers inbetween fights with whatever powers her.
We don’t know whether it’s clean.
As for whether someone has thought of it:
a. probably yes
b. such initiative are why supers are considered a valuable national resource and paid big to join the military
Um, when Sydney pulls the lighthook, what are those yellow ring-ey things around the orb supposed to be?
I believe that’s the motion of her arm winding up like a baseball pitcher. Which is also not how you punch.
every time I see one of these questions it reminds me that classic comic strips are dead.
motion lines, stink lines, blur to indicate fast movement, ect…every time DaveB implements these in the comic one or more people ask what they are.
I notice modern comic books don’t often use these as much as older ones did.
Sorry, but they just look weird with modern shading. Maybe in the old comic art style it would have worked, but not this
Works for me.
I’ve seen it mentioned a few time, but it raises a question.
Can Sydney whip with the light hook? As in how fast can she move it, can she even get the rolling momentum going to cause a whip crack.
Whips generally are dead weight going with the motion; you don’t really see animals with such limbs (octopus, squid, cuttlefish, ect…) whipping with their tentacles, but grabbing.
She moves the light hook like a stretchy tentacle, and we’ve seen people dodging it (Aranea…which come to think of it, was that character’s name ever actually said in comic? Thinking just in comment section and description blurb below comic); anywho.
So it seems her light hook doesn’t whip around swooshing through the air as fast as a whip could go as she has to mentally guide its movements, so more like a tentacle than a whip.
So even if she tried to whip the light hook at the machine; could she? (I mean a whip crack, not just strike it with the end of the light hook).
There is a distinction to be made. Sydney does not have to micro-manage the movement of the tentacle. Just think of her writing the name of the comic shop website with it. If we had to position a hose pipe in that shape it would take minutes worth of manipulation, to get it to form any type of readable text. Yet Halo managed it with a casual wave of her hand.
Proof of her speed of mental control (in general) comes from being backstabbed, yet retaliating with her orbs, in a pincer movement, yet striking precisely and powerfully on target. Whilst these are two different functions they are just examples that Sydney need merely think something (say “make a formation like the orbits of atoms”) and the orbs, or their features, comply).
As such I do not think that responding with the speed of thought would hinder the use in question.
Then turning to its speed, just think about pranks with wet towels, and how easy it is to get them to make a whip crack noise. It does not take much. If we can do that with a towel, I think Sydney will not have any difficulty with her lighthook.
As a rule of paw I would expect anything that a cowboy can do with a lasso or a sailor with a length of rope can easily be replicated by her. I can make rope crack, so I believe Sydney can do the same. Her Nth generation tech is a lot more advanced than our age of sail technology, after all!
Did… did they really just leave Sydney unsupervised with the Ego-Burst 6000? o_O
Why not? It’s not as though she can damage it… Destroy probably, but not damage.
They probably built it for her. Unless you can think of someone else* with a bigger ego, which needs bursting?
* Who is a member of Archon.
Umm, all of them? Specially the ‘heavy-hitters’
Bigger egos than Sydney?
no way is that a linear gradient…
Correct.
Why the hell is tiger above bull on that thing? No way in hell is a tiger capable of outputting more force than a bull.
I think Dave is using a combined scale of strength with a ‘coolness’ modifier. Maybe if the bull were wearing sunglasses.
I had the same thought, but agree with O.B. Juan. Too many games have given tigers a higher damage potential than bulls, because of the coolness factor. But a bull weighs at least 3 times as much as a tiger. So if it were not for the tiger’s hunting tactics and precision attacks, there would be no justification for such discrepancy.
I would still rather be in a confined space with a bull than a tiger mind. Especially a china shop.
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Sydney shouldn’t be too disappointed. Her jab might suck, but her light hook can only be beaten by 6 others on the team.
“Calibration Error”
She is not the coolest of heroines, but many underestimate her. No foe can hit her. Her enemies keep getting lost whenever they have to rely on navigation aids. Their equipment leaks and breaks down. Their missed shots always hit their equipment always jams, breaks down or springs leaks.
Conversely she can prevent the same from happening to equipment for herself and her allies. No matter how shoddy the manufacturing or testing. Throw in the fact that she has a global reach and she could ensure a victory, should WWIII break out. Barring countermeasures by other supers, of course.
Needless to say any device designed to measure her threat level is always calibrated wrong.
“Their missed shots always hit their …”
Should read:
“Their missed shots always hit their allies, “
My issue is that it isn’t clear what her Lighthook strike scored. Is it “Bull” because that’s the score adjacent to the “Ding”? It isn’t really clear, and in a visual medium these things should be clear.
The pointer arrow is twice the size of all the other arrows. The “ding” is just to supplement that, but is appropriately positioned, next to the BIG ARROW, to help you find it.
No to mention (though clearly it needs to be) that it is the same colour with accompanying DING as for the ‘Calibration Error’ entry, plus ‘Bull’ is lit up
So yeah, can completely see how one can be confused