Grrl Power #777 – Salvage rights
Page 777! It’s the number of the upstairs neighbor of the beast. And a few doors down. Depends on how the building is laid out really.
I’m not absolutely sure who these guys are. For the purposes of the story it doesn’t matter quite yet. Archon has a shit ton of publicity but they’re not a large government agency. They have a lot of sway within their field – basically they get jurisdiction over anything involving superpowers (unless there are weird extenuating circumstances). Aliens should fall under their purview, but for obvious reasons that wasn’t explicitly written into their charter.
That will probably be amended soon, but in the meantime, now that aliens are public knowledge, there are other agencies salivating at the idea of getting their hands on an alien ship with energy weapons, force fields, crazy power sources, you know, the woiks. For instance, every other branch of the military, DARPA, NASA, OSI, Section 31, BPRD, IMF, Fulcrum. You guys get the idea. So these guys could be with just about anyone.
General Faulk! I haven’t draw him in a loooong time. I kept saying he was doing General stuff in Washington, but really I forgot to include him doing stuff around the base.
Speaking of characters we haven’t seen in a while, the guy standing next to Maxima is Irradon, who is the Twilight Council’s alien representative. His being there isn’t a public acknowledgement of the whole supernatural element present on Earth, but he’s stepped in as a sort of interim galactic ambassador.
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Sadly I can sympathize with the suitguys here – even as I know (due to our bias toward Dabbler/Cora) that they likely mean well. Cora had *JUST* got done telling everyone that nobody in space cares about Earth, and then one ship-ambush later we have a seeming treasure trove of tech crashed in Archon’s almost-literal back yard. So I can really see where the military wants their share.
The problem is that Cora is having the wrong conversation with them. It’s not, “Who has rights to salvage” – rather they should be saying “Who will dispose of the toxic mess from this giant weapon we sloppily blew out of the sky?” i.e. so that the shiny/expensive new Archon building doesn’t have to be demolished and rebuilt somewhere less blighted.
It really does seem like Dabbler and Cora are thowing it back in their faces.
And Dabbler claimed she was now an indoctrinated American! Showing her true colors now. Should be arrested and her tech confiscated, seeing as she creates it on American soil and in an American base.
How do you know, maybe she does it on the moon!? That’s naturalized, not indoctrinated.
Well we know it’s on Earth because we’ve seen her build stuff on Earth, in Archon labs, in fact. And in the Archon rec room (the tickle gun).
Okay, if I were suit guy. Firstly I am kinda on his side, earth pretty much single handedly took out an invading force. The salvage is theirs by all rights.
The psychic issues are definitely worrying, and I would thank them for hte info. I would then ask the range, and get someone from Archon to tow it out into space just a bit further than that. I would then get some scientists working on getting an anti-psychic rad suit built, so we can send scientists in to study it safely.
Throw it into the sun? Fuck right the hell off. Don’t you go vaporising our super tech.
Yep, or send some supers to salvage whatever they can that isn’t compromised, or even have Cora borrow the containment tech from whoever has it, since their ship is the one who attracted the slavers in the first place.
And what happens when the supers you send turn into fel creatures ? No way to check exposure or know what is or is not contaminated so you bring something back and oops , wrong piece , goodbye human race.
Achilles would be the best suited to go into the wreckage either here or in orbit. He cannot be physically harmed, he doesn’t need to breathe or eat. He is immune to regular radiation. Hopefully he can handle whatever the Fel have been corrupted by.
‘Achilles, we have a job only you can do.. for America!’
‘What is it?! I’m ready!’
‘We need you to… eat this ship’
But… what about the mouth-felling.
It’s texture, dammit! TEXTURE!
But “mouth feel” is a way to describe a ^specific^ KIND of texture.
unfortunately most suits only look at potential, value not potential problems …. like most above in this post they are used to saying “who would have thought that {insert problem that was obvious here} could get so out of hand” they don’t have to somehow clean the mess up, they just have to get saved by someone else, and blame any one else for the problem they are ignoring ….
Yes, he can’t be harmed physically, butt the radiation isn’t physical, it’s psychic, it affects the mind
Have we ever seen Achille influenced by psychic attacks? Like Dabbler’s glamour or Vehemence’s aura?
Folks. FOLKS. Do you want Reapers? Because this is how you get Reapers!
This! This all the way!
Nah,reapers came from human tech,not alien tech. :)
And you would start to build an anti psychic suit how exactly ? remember they could not even detect it . Putting it in orbit would probably make Cora and her crew accessories to a galactic crime ( they need to destroy it not keep it ) same problem with giving them the tech needed ( contaminating primitive culture ) . Sometimes you just need to admit that you are not a full grown species and giving a nuclear reactor to a kindergarten class is not a good idea.
You can not overcome the effect of pure unadulterated greed.
And lets face it.
One hundred percent of the decisions displayed by the suit guys show the influence of greed untempered by any other considerations of any sort.
It’s who they are and so many people are the exact same way that their position is appealing.
“Even the gods themselves, contend with stupidity, in vain.
It’s not completely greedy or irrational to not want your salvage to be destroyed when you know for a fact that it contains/contained technology far advanced from your own. (And it is the property of the US by all local laws and Cora said she wasn’t even disputing that point)
It’s also not completely greedy or irrational to refuse to believe in something that cannot be demonstrated to you other than by instruments which you are also being asked to take on pure faith and not evidence.
I’ll also have to disagree that “One hundred percent of the decisions displayed by the suit guys show the influence of greed untempered by any other considerations of any sort.” They did the “other considerations” part when they “[went] over the crash site with all manner of instrumentation and didn’t detect” [presumably anything dangerous at all, but Cora cut him off].
No, despite DaveB labeling them “government assholes” these guys aren’t really being assholes. Not as long as you try to have some empathy with their side of things and don’t just ignore their position because you’d rather believe that Cora and Dabbler aren’t lying. I mean, I also don’t believe that Cora and Dabbler aren’t lying, but that doesn’t make people who have done what they obviously thought was a good amount of due diligence assholes just because they don’t immediately believe something told to them by persons they have no real reason to believe and have no way to validate their claims.
Wrong.
They cannot detect it scientifically.
America’s government has had to deal with magical energies before.
That is why they have a relationship with the Twilight Council, and why Archon was formed.
These suited idiots are attempting to bypass established protocols because they think that the ruined remains of the Fel ship might give them something shiny…and if established procedures are followed they cannot have what they think is there.
It isn’t like Archon is this new agency with no track record. Archon has been around for a long, long time. It is polished enough to have finally been revealed to the public.
Th Aliens, never sign the treaty, so they don’t have to respect it.
it’s Psychic radiation. just ask Cora the range of influence and tow it past that. Maybe tow it to Mars.
Then have Sydney take a bunch of robotics to the site and the scientists can tele-robotic research to their heart’s content.
if the claim the salvage messes with whole solar systems, then you have Deus Ex Machina problem in your universe because the Fel would reasonably just send wreckage to ALL life habitable system, not troops.
No, the right solution is clearly to ask whether or not there’s an intergalactic bounty on taking these Fel guys out. If so, then claim the bounty, and ask for it to be delivered in the form of off-the-shelf spaceship parts, thus bypassing alien restrictions on importing technology.
hahahaha I like this idea
Yes, this could work
Maybe the wreckage really does have no value and is really so vile that the only thing the rest of the universe wants done with such ships is to dispose of it asap.
Good points. I mean, they are presumably meeting in Archon HQ right next to the crash site, and no one is turning into a Fel. So obviously the danger isn’t so imminent that some time can’t be taken to find any possible workarounds. Which could include Cora or other aliens gifting the US with some form of comparable technology that the Fel ship possessed, just w/o the bad psychic invisible to Earth tech stuff.
“toxic mess” – yeah, that’s a better framing, but still not the root of the problem. The core question is “How can we convince you that we are sufficiently trustworthy when we tell you that this wreckage is a net cost to your world?”
The tech involved is exactly the kind of “sufficiently advanced technology” that’s indistinguishable from magic (to Earth). There’s very little trust (not least since Cora has explicitly confirmed the rest of the Galaxy don’t want to just give them advanced tech). The potential gain is huge, centuries of technological advance, so the threat has to be convincingly greater than that. And it sounds like the wreckage can’t be contained for whatever period of time might allow that trust to be established.
Even parking the wreckage in orbit somewhere leaves it massively exposed for someone to destroy.
Maybe they should interview the various aliens and whatnot that have been on the planet, try to get their unvarnished opinion on what Fel tech can do to a planet? Get enough of them and you boil out a lot of bias, verify what Cora and Dabbler are warning about.
Well, we can actually start with Maxima. Cora told her point blank that the Fel are a galactic wide threat. They basically eat civilizations and she was sufficiently convinced they had a few minutes tops before the Fel breached her ship shields and used the artifact she was carrying to make things much worse. Does Maxima think Cora was lying? You know since their whole claim to the wreckage hinged on her blowing it out of the sky.
And, though I don’t know if this is a point of order in this level of discussion, Cora only came to this planet to do a favor for Archon by retrieving one of their most powerful team-members who had been lost in space. Archon is basically already in her debt unless there was some plan of payment for what was essentially deep space recovery of an enormous defense asset. Access to any Fel wreckage was pretty much contingent to her agreeing to this action to stat with since they would not have followed her to Earth without her coming this way with the artifact onboard.
Live Fel are a superficially convincing threat, not much trust required. It’s the guns and things.
It doesn’t logically follow that Cora is being equally truthful now. If there is no active threat from the Fel tech, Cora would still have a strong incentive to remove it, and ‘psychic radiation’ that Earth tech can’t detect is awfully convenient.
With the alien interviews I suggested, if half the people you talk to start yelling about psychic radiation and fel hives it’s likely not something Cora and Dabbler are bluffing with.
Yes, it pretty much does flow that Cora is being truthful now.
Ad hoc denials notwithstanding.
Starting with Maxima makes zero sense. Everything Maxima knows she learned second hand through the same aliens that aren’t being believed first hand. So nothing she says can either confirm or deny that anything that Cora says is either truth or lies.
The best Maxima could do is to testify whether she thought that Dabbler was an essentially honest person. But she can’t do that for Cora, no. Not for someone you met yesterday.
Cora also told Maxima that fighting them would be a real slog. Cora happened to be VERY wrong though, since the humans beat them within under 10 minutes time with a handful of soldiers (some of whom were not even superhuman), and downed the entire battlecruiser with zero losses on the human’s side during what could be laughably called a battle.
Also, in addition to Cora massively underestimating terran superhumans (and even terran humans for that matter), she is also being inconsistent – she has Fel technology on her ship, and it’s been on her ship for SEVERAL days, within close proximity to her crew, Sydney, her own tech, and the Alari refugees. Which means either she is saying something false, or she has technology capable of keeping stygian energy contained (which she is not voluntarily giving to humans so they don’t, yknow…. become a Fel hive like she’s claiming would happen).
Some idiot suit has little man syndrome and wont listen to reason. I say ignore the dumb under evolved swamp monkey…but that’s just me. I know what can happy to anyone who ignores any order to keep that ship. A pox on that idiot, yes. Laws of salvage yadda yadda yadda we savages aren’t capable of dealing with that crap so give it over. It’s a sad day when I am a voice of reason. Guy should be glad I’m not his boss. “Take that schmuck outside and make sure his accident is terminal”. When I hear idiots like mr. suit there, I doubt there is a single intelligent sophont capable of rational decision making on this planet.
Yes. Call the humans idiots. That will definitely make them more amenable to your requests. It definitely won’t make them double down. No, that’s definitely how people think. When you berate them after they don’t want to give you what you want, they always roll over and comply.
This is sarcasm by the way :) I figured I’d try a new argument tactic :)
Yes, when they ignore every bit of evidence because they want to get their hands on space tech (that they do not have the rights to), yes, they are fucking idiots
All the evidence has to be taken on trust, because there’s no way to *verify* with Earth tech. Cora *just* said the rest of the Galaxy is actively withholding tech from planets like Earth. Now she’s asking Earth to trust that *this* tech is being withheld due to invisible risks, rather than the broader policy. It would be insane not to question that.
Suit guy is making reasonable objections until he escalates at “don’t you threaten us”. The rest *is* idiotic.
As far as withholding tech from less advanced civilization, we only need to look at under developed countries becoming war zones because outside agents are willing to sell weapons there that the country does not have the resources or knowledge to produce.
When a group can forgo the required level of research, development and basic philosophy of mutual preservation of themselves and their environment that would be needed just to live long enough to create great implements of destruction, that group tends to simply get caught in a loop of violence until it destroys itself.
But…this really does feel like a realistic course of events, especially in the United States. We’ve spent so long being a world power (quite possibly THE world power), that the mere idea someone else is on our level or above it militarily is a cross of terrifying and insulting. Doubly so if it’s beyond debate that their higher level is true. Our nation is the biggest war machine on our planet and it oozes money and influence. Anyone who appears to get in the way of that or surpass us is a threat.
Sure, I never said I disagreed with the policy of withholding tech. Plus, this is a realistic scenario not *just* because real-world politics. Yes, there will be people who will try to control the new tech and abuse the power that gives.
But on the other hand, what if the Fel tech leads to medical breakthroughs? Clean power? How much suffering could be avoided by breaking the embargo and holding onto the wreckage?
And the rest of the galaxy *does* pose threats. If Maxima hadn’t been there, the Fel would have conquered the planet just now. Is it unreasonable to want to have weapons capable of defending against that?
Again, I think the policy is sensible, but there are sensible reasons for low-tech cultures to try to break it.
Because charred and shattered wreckage of plague ships has lead to so many breakthroughs in human history, alien charred and shattered plague ship wreckage is bound to be even better.
Why is General Faulk looking at these guys like something that just fell out of the back end of an elephant? Clearly these guys have it going on upstairs.
Probably because those guys are speaking for the President, and the President is someone who can order Faulk, regardless of whether or not Faulk is happy about it (again, as long as it’s not an illegal order, which this is not).
The tech in that ship could likely power cities, factories and vehicles without any carbon emissions. That tech could be the difference between life and death for millions of people and entire species of endangered animals.
That might have been the case before Maxima blew the crap out of it. And before the wreckage burned for however long it took for the fires to go out.
Now?
Not so much.
Guesticus, WHAT evidence? They havent been GIVEN any credible evidence. At all. Because Dabbler and Cora refuse to divulge how their scanning tech even works.
I’ve used this example several times, but it’s like if I ran up to you in a labcoat and a blinking ghostbusters-looking device and claimed there was ectoplasmic radiation in your house and the only way to prevent you from being possessed by demonic entities was to blow up your house. And then I refused to show you how my blinking device actually worked to know it’s not just…. a blinking toy… and I just wanted to blow up your house.
on the other hand you don’t want to be Walter Peck, that pekker EPA guy from gostbusters and release THE END OF THE WORLD because you are a greedy @$$#at
This argument’s mostly over, but… I just had to comment on this. Walter Peck was RIGHT. And he was NOT motivated by greed. He showed up because, as a representative of the EPA, he had reasonable grounds to be concerned about the NUCLEAR POWERED EQUIPMENT the Ghostbusters were using. Unfortunately for everyone involved… he met with Peter Venkmann. Venkmann, the incompetent fraud and con artist whose introductory scene involved him falsifying the results on a study in order to… hit on one of his own students. Venkmann proceeded to be a total jerk to Peck for no other reason than his own amusement… and then failed to even mention it to the others, leaving them utterly blindsided when Peck returned with police and a warrant.
Granted, Peck was wrong when he insisted on shutting things down without listening to warnings from Egon and Ray (i.e. the INTELLIGENT ones who actually knew what they were doing), but he wasn’t entirely in the wrong here…
Walter Peck was a perfect example of ‘Strawman has a Point’ though. He was entirely correct that having a nuclear-powered containment facility in the middle of a heavily populated area, protected only by a single switch, with no backup in case the power goes off to cause a possible nuclear (or in the movie’s case, ectoplasmic) explosion if the power was interrupted, is…. NOT a good idea, either for the environment or for common sense. I’m still wondering how the Ghostbusters managed to get that approved with the city. Most likely, they simply did not bother to do so.
Peck was a jerk, but he was a jerk that had a reasonable point and he was doing his job. Just like Principal Ed Rooney is a jerk, but he’s a jerk that is doing his job (hell, going above and beyond his job) to prevent an absolute sociopath like Ferris Bueller from being a truant. Or in Patch Adams, his roommate is portrayed as a jerk motivaed by Patch Adams’ antics, and accuses him of cheating, and that his concept about ‘use laughter instead of medicine’ was a horrible idea. But there was no reason for him to think that Patch Adams was NOT CHEATING… the guy in the movie never studied, he constantly goofed off, and Patch committed numerous violations of medical ethics, not to mention criminal action (like stealing medicine and supplies from a hospital and practicing without a license). Even the real Patch Adams HATED the movie because it was complete BS, composed of a bunch of things that never happened. :) In Stargate SG-1, Wolesy is originally portrayed as a jerk and bad guy to the Stargate operations, but he’s COMPLETELY right the entire time that a government operation, being funded with billions of dollars each year by taxpayers who have no idea of where the money is going, should at least have someone making sure the money is being properly spent. Eventually the writers realized that his motivations were actually that of a good guy, and they made him a good guy, especially when he was put in charge of Atlantis when Weil was written out of the show. Or maybe the writers had planned it that way the whole time. Stargate writers were EXTREMELY good at storytelling and very trope-savvy.
Or if you want a comic book example, World War Hulk. The Illuminati there (Dr Strange, Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Charles Xavier, Black Bolt, and Namor) are supposed to be the bad guys, because they were the ones that shot Hulk into outer space. But the reason they did so was because it was after a rampage by the Hulk in Las Vegas, during which 22 people were killed as a result and they figured that since they were unwilling to kill the Hulk (nor were they sure it was even possible), they decided that exile from the Earth was the best solution. Plus the Hulk was always saying he wanted everyone to ‘Leave Hulk alone.’ Well…. this was going to leave Hulk alone, on a planet with plentiful water and game, where he could be alone. But soon as Hulk woke up in the ship mid flight, he started smashing everything in the ship in a rage, which made the ship go off course and onto the planet of the Red King instead.
I really love the ‘Strawman has a Point’ trope btw.
They showed the readings, is that not evidence enough?
They showed the scanners working to produce the readings
You are ignoring the part where the ghosts had just shown up down the block in some ghost vehicle that was blown up by some guy in a jumpsuit and laser back-pack, leading credence to claim of ectoplasmic radiation
I could quite easily hack up a simulated “spooky radiation detector” that would provide whatever readings I needed to make my point. If you had no way of distinguishing between my phony detector and an actually functional device you’d have to take my word for it.
No. Showing reading without showing how the machine works means the readings are not credible. I don’t know what part of this is difficult to understand. Evidence needs to be credible to be accepted, and the way evidence is credible, especially SCIENTIFIC evidence, is to show how the science behind it works, and how the technology used to measure the data works.
“You are ignoring the part where the ghosts had just shown up down the block in some ghost vehicle that was blown up by some guy in a jumpsuit and laser back-pack, leading credence to claim of ectoplasmic radiation”
Again Guesticus, you’re strawmanning by introducing things that did not happen in the comic. Aliens attacked. There’s NO evidence whatsoever that the suits can remotely see that those aliens were because of evil stygian psychic radiation. So no. The actual comparison would be you see some guys beat up someone, but NO evidence of ghosts… after which I’m telling you that if you don’t let me blow up your house, you’ll get possessed and start doing that to people as well.
If someone showed you how an EKG machine worked, would you understand it? Or would you trust the tech using it knows what it does?
Again, not strawmanning, commenting on something you brought up outside of the comic
And no, the comparison is correct: the Suit Guy saw some aliens (ghosts) attacking and get defeated by Maxi (guys in jumpsuits wearing laser back-packs), and then someone else comes running up in a labcoat claiming the defeated aliens (ghosts) left behind residue that can’t be detected by conventional means
“If someone showed you how an EKG machine worked, would you understand it? Or would you trust the tech using it knows what it does?”
Actually, if they were to present an EKG readout in a court case, it would be accepted as scientific evidence ONLY if it can be proven the be empirical evidence and interpretation in accordance with the scientific method. Which it is. But if an EKG was a new, unproven technology, no, it would not be UNTIL YOU CAN PROVE THAT IT IS BY EXPLAINING IT AND SHOWING HOW IT WORKS, as well as the scientific principles behind how it works, so that it can be examined and verified to be accurate evidence which can support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis.
Which Dabbler and Cora refuse to do.
:)
Which is why lie detector tests aren’t admissible in real court cases – companies and TV cops sure trust them, but there’s just not solid enough science to back their accuracy to a level sufficient for legally binding rulings.
Exactly. It’s not considered credible scientific evidence to prove someone is lying because the scientific basis for it is actually INCREDIBLY flawed, and a lot of it is based on things that are outright incorrect.
Interesting, you want to accept an EKG. But you have zero knowledge of how the equipment works. You do know that over 50 years ago Asimov shot that argument down (or was it Heinlein, been way too many decades) “Can you tell me how a television works? No, then it must be magic”. Sorry Pander, but your cake is inedible, but you can have it. I agree with the assessment about Lie detectors.
The Suits are letting their exasperation at Cora’s intransigence get in the way of their arguing, but I agree with Pander that they have a strong point.
In writing out the examples below, I did persuade myself that Cora’s also got a bit of a point, but (in my opinion) it’s weaker and more dependent on interpretation for how it should be applied. Especially given the fact of the Alari ship in Galytn and the potential presence of native Stark-type Supers, both of which factors blur the boundaries of ‘Terran technology levels’.
Basically, both sides are getting too caught up in the shouting to even try to understand where the other’s coming from.
“Can you tell me how a television works” is actually an easy question. The same basic answer covers everything from televisions to computerised-tomography-functional-nucleomagnetic-resonance-imagers to the humble blade of grass.
“Not personally offhand, but if you give me a few minutes to check my sources* I can refer you to any one of several standard introductory textbooks which explain it far better than I could, complete with references. The technology has been around for a while in some of these things, so getting back to the original primary research might take a bit longer if it means tracing back through a few layers of references, but we’ll get there eventually.”
*Basic level: Google, Wikipedia, et al; take your chances on how well referenced their results will be, especially if the questioner wants to be able to trace back to primary research. Expert level: ask a librarian for a textbook with a good layperson’s explanation and good references; they may not know one offhand themselves for the less common things, but they should be able to pass you on to someone else who’s more familiar with the subject. Does depend on the library and/or university department being open when the question’s asked; if not, extend the aforementioned ‘few minutes’ accordingly.
Compare that to:
“Can you tell me why this wreck is dangerous?”
“Because the Fel-finder says so.”
“OK, can you tell me how a Fel-finder works so I can understand the scale of the problem?”
“No, you wouldn’t understand it.”
“Fair enough, I barely understand my own TV remote sometimes. So can you point me to a layperson’s explanation that I might have a better chance with? And if there’s some published textbook that covers it, then our science crew can read up on the technical side and make sure I’m not misunderstanding anything. If you’d rather not give them the entire book, then just the relevant chapter and references should be fine.”
“No, you wouldn’t understand it, and neither would your ‘science crew’.”
“OK, let’s take the numpty called me out of the equation entirely. How about I nominate half a dozen of our top scientists in whatever of our research areas are closest, and you and them figure out however many stepping stones of references there are between where Earth is now and being able to confirm how the Fel-Finder works. We don’t need all the details or the technology to build one ourselves, we just need those stepping stones to know that the claims are plausible.”
“No, because that would be pushing the definitions of the no-interference rules.” This is where Cora should be making her stand, not two or three paragraphs ago.
“But you weren’t the ones who started this interference; the Fel did. If anything, aren’t you now interfering further? If the attack had happened when you weren’t here, which surely has to be your baseline for ‘non-interference’, then we’d be investigating this wreck under controlled containment conditions anyway in case they’d left any little chemical or biological presents behind – our fiction writers have come up with some really nasty scenarios over the years, and a surprising number of them have been incorporated into our contingency planning. Let me check who last covered the ‘zombie outbreak’ and ‘Xenomorph crash’ scenarios*, and you can discuss with them how well each one applies and what adaptations are needed. If you’re satisfied that the threat can be minimised, identified, contained, and if needs be eradicated, then we go ahead with a better understanding of what to look for and the necessary precautions. If you can convince our disaster planners that there’s no way to do so, then we can talk about how to minimise the effect of your interference.”
*’Zombies’ has been used in our own world as a worst-case scenario for pandemic disease. I’m not sure whether anyone in our world has actually modelled/contingency-planned ‘Xenomorphs’ per se, but it’s more likely in Archon’s world given the higher prevalence of high-level unknowns.
And yes Guesticus, this time what you are doing is NOT strawmanning. Which is why I was able to give you a response to it which was in line with what you asked.
The Terrans; would not be able to to understand, the least of it.
Remember, average is an IQ of 100, so 50% of people are dumber than that.
Unfortunately and most of them are perfectly content not understanding how anything actually works or building up a general knowledge base.
If the shoe fits.
Cora lives within the larger galactic or intergalactic civilization.
Their laws apply to her.
There appears to be limited clandestine contact with some pre-FTL worlds that has been authorized or at least winked at.
There are probably laws that cover returning people from such worlds who somehow find their way to distant worlds.
But technology transfer laws are clear.
If she offers to tow off contaminated junk, thats probably allowed.
If she leaves wreckage the humans shot down thats likely allowed.
Buying said wreckage with working technology so that she could tow it off?
That would be so far from being within the legal strictures under which Cora operates that she would no longer even be able to see the law from where she operates. She isn’t free to do everything she might choose and remain within the laws she falls under.
Yeah, these guys are idiots.
She’s already defied the laws of the Xevoarchy by ferrying Sydney back to Earth with the orbs.
RE #777 upstairs… You could make it the direct upstairs neighbor if the building was cone shaped and each layer had 111 more apartments than the one directly below it.
And you number from the outside in.
This is sounding like an engineers worst nightmare….that and a janitors…
777 in the Kabbala is the perfect number of the deity. 666 is the imperfect number of Man and the form of one of the Beasts. (There are 2 others, one of them is a kaiju from the oceans, the other is the leader of a new religion that works with the main Anti-Christ to do their work.) Its all a numbers game…
Between them and the horde of the 200 million “man” army from the far north. (I see it as Leng itself and the army is from there. By use of a kutulengu, a bridge between dimensions. They are as human as Wilbur Whateley was.) Only the flag of Mongolia has the right 3 colors of brimstone (sulfur yellow), fire (red) & hyacinth (pale blue to lavender) but they do not have the numbers for 200 million. China maybe, but they don’t use the colors just 2 of the 3.
But this is all in the future. At least it starts in 2060 as per Sir Isaac Newton.
Regarding kicking it into the sun, that could be a disaster for the equilibrium of the sun’s production of heavier elements. Stars in the sun’s mass range die when the amount of carbon and heavier elements exceed a certain point, it basically starts cooling. Also, introduction of volatile materials could cause an explosive disruption (massive coronal mass ejection) which could wipe out the magnetic field protecting the Earth from solar radiation and fry use in a few minutes or over a slightly longer period. This is one reason no one uses the sun as a garbage disposal for nuclear (fission) waste. The exact results have not clearly been calculated.
So towing it away to be destroyed would probably not be to launch it into Sol.
Just noticed the redundant massively…mass in their, unintended. By the way, grants on the long run of the comic!
I hate autocorrect and the inability to edit posts errors: … ‘grats… not grants … there not their
You’d need a lot more mass to make a difference to something the size of the sun. Chances are even throwing the Earth into it wouldn’t affect it noticeably.
I did once hear the best way to destroy a star is to introduce an element in it more dense than iron. I think it was on Nova, by Michio Kaku. Once a star starts producing iron, it almost immediately goes red giant then supernova. most of the elements in the universe heavier than iron are made and thrown clear in the dying moments of a star.
Again, if I’m wrong, blame my hazy recollection of PBS.
First of all, heavier elements aren’t necessarily better star killers. For example, yes, plutonium fuses poorly, but it fissions very well, and produces energy that way, making it less of a star killer than iron, and it’s results from fissioning are also exothermic fissions.
Iron does two things that are notable to this discussion – it’s hella stable, and it fuses endothermically (ie, when it fuses, it takes in energy, unlike hydrogen, which produces energy when fused; it also fissions endothermically, in case you were wondering). The first part isn’t actually too relevant – Sol isn’t nearly big enough to even try to mess with iron as a whole – or carbon, for that matter, last I checked. So, no, if you chuck enough iron in and disrupted things, our sun wouldn’t supernova – there just isn’t enough mass there to do that. This does mean that, if you put an iron atom between every available hydrogen, the sun would stutter for as long as that remained the case, as you’ve denied it easy fusion. of course, the immediate result would be a partial collapse and the sun would start trying to fuse helium due to it’s suddenly greater density- something likely to work unless you really over-saturated the sun with iron, due to a)the instability inherent to such a system (nothing stays that homogeneous for long, unless it’s solid), and b) you’d have to have an iron atom between every possible helium and hydrogen atom, to deny it every possible fusing partner – which is a heck of a lot of iron.
Short answer, yes, you could disrupt the sun with iron. long answer – you don’t have nearly enough iron to do it.
somewhat more relevant
if the local density at a point in the sun is sufficiently iron rich, you’ll get a limited but marked failure of fusion at said point. This, in turn, will give gravity a hand and produce a point of instability – effectively, for some duration, you’ll get a point prone to plasma expulsions as the sun’s surface contracts due to gravity, and then expands due to the increased pressure as helium fusion starts kicking in due to the collapse – a solar geyser like Old Faithful, in effect, exploding like clockwork, until equilibrium is restored. This expulsion, depending on severity, size, and duration, may or may not produce a negative factor to the star’s long term existence, due to the loss of fusable matter in the expulsions.
Of note, most models show that there isn’t enough iron on Earth to produce a notable effect for more than a few minutes – assuming you could get the Earth to the photosphere without it turning into plasma and diffusing before having an effect.
The chromosphere which is hotter than the suns’ surface would probably be the problem. You would need to protect it from that then free it to make it to the photosphere.
the chromosphere while being technically hotter than the surface of the sun isnt actually hot like we consider it here in earth, you wouldnt get vaporized just by entering into it, the vacum of space unlike our atmosphere is a terrible medium to pass heat by convection or conduction since its a vacum, it would be more correct to say that each particle that travels through the chromosphere is hotter than the surface of the sun but since this region is literaly billions of kilometers in diameter the chances of hitting enough particles to vaporize you are astronomical
basically you can pass through the chromosphere without much problems you just need some solar chade to protect you from the light that the sun emits (which some thick layer of carbon can suffice, that is how the parker solar probe approached the sun)
As I said, almost all my information on this is from Nova and Michio Kaku on PBS specials.
I did take several science courses and have a science background as one of my degrees (you have to in order to take the Patent Bar), but that degree was in biology, not astrophysics. So…. blame Michio Kaku and PBS if I made mistakes or was not very thorough on this :) Everything you said seems to be very intelligent though and I’m going to assume you might be correct.
The reason that, once a star starts producing iron, it’s doomed, is just because it doesn’t do that until it’s burned everything else it has to burn. Iron isn’t a star killer, it’s just what you’ve got after everything else has been burned.
The star burns any deuterium first, then it settles into burning hydrogen.
When it gets low on hydrogen, it contracts a bit, and starts burning slightly heavier elements.
Then it works its way up the periodic table, getting less and less bang for the buck from each new element.
Then finally it’s got nothing to burn but iron, which doesn’t provide any energy, eats it instead, and it collapses and explodes. (The collapse is followed by an explosion because the top surface bounces, and in heavier stars because turning the iron into neutronium is pretty energetic.)
Stars of different sizes have different limits of the heaviest element the can create with fusion before they start to cool. Our sun will become a white dwarf when it hits a critical amount of carbon. Larger stars, the one that produce a lot of the heavy elements, average out with iron. That’s probably what the PBS show you were talking about was referencing.
I worked with physicists that had worked on the idea of disposing of radioactive waste by launching it into the sun. I gave a watered down version of the conclusions they reached. One of the ancillary topics was about the how fission reaction explosion within the sun might affect life of the sun. Since this was in the late 80’s early 90’s my recollection is a bit foggy, it’s also just secondhand, I am remembering talks we had at lunch. I wasn’t on any of those projects. I just related my memory of those discussions.
Yeeeah, no, that ship ain’t near big enough to screw with the equilibrium of the sun’s core. That’s kinda goofy.
Also it’s the sun, not Sol :P Our star does not have a god name, it’s just the sun.
Unless you’re speaking Spanish or Latin, wherein the word is sol. Which translates to “sun.”
While not a god name, it does have a name, and it is Sol.
We live on a planet in the Sol system. (Also known as the solar system)
Sol is the name of our sun.
If we lived in the Alfa Centauri system, Alfa Centauri (or Proxima Centauri) would be the name of our sun.
*Correction*
Apparently, Sol was an ancient Roman sun god.
Sol IS the name of our sun/star.
A sun is a star that has planets that revolve around it.
Sol is the name of OUR sun (Sun is just the scientific name). There are other suns in the universe though. Many others. In fact, according to recent studies the vast majority of stars, at least in the Milky Way galaxy, do have planets orbiting them, especially red dwarf stars (which make up about 75% of the galaxy’s 100 billion or so stars), according to HARPS and UVES data.
The sun currently contains over 40 Earth masses of Iron and lots of other elements. It almost certainly gets hit by “small” debris frequently. A megatonne comet or asteroid would accelerate to half a million metres/s falling that far, it would hit the Sun with more than enough energy to crack a planet. The sun would Burp. There would be a star-quake that would echo round the solar system and a coronal mass ejection that would make for a rather bad day for anyone in it’s path. It probably happens every couple of centuries.
To influence the fusion process, you’d have to get that stuff to the core of the sun, so throwing it in from the outside wouldn’t have an effect for a very long time.
Not to mention that the mass of even the earth itself is so much smaller than the mass of the sun, so a single star ship wouldn’t do much damage.
The most likely scenario, if one were to toss something in the sun, would probably be that the stuff gets mixed in with the outer layers. The lighter elements would probably end up as part of the solar wind over time while the portion that makes its way to the core (or even remotely close) would probably be negligible.
Masterly, said.
The total mass of the ship vs the mass if the sun would indicate that the addition of the ship would have an infinitesimal effect on the composition of the sun. The sun is roughly 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons. Yes that is the correct number of zeros.
Secondly, a coronal mass ejection hitting earth doesn’t destroy the magnetosphere and even without the magnetosphere we wouldn’t be fired by radiation. Sensitive electronics might fry. Cancer rates would go up if the magnetosphere was gone for a long time, but it is generated by the earth’s spinning liquid iron core, so it would only be momentarily disturbed by a coronal mass ejection.
I’ve seen a lot of discussion about how Cora and The Suit should negotiate this situation. I understand that The Suit is representing the sovereign nation of The United States of America, but by what authority would Cora be negotiating? As far we know, Cora is a private citizen of the Xevoarchy without plenipotentiary authority to do any negotiating on the behalf of the Xevoarchy.
Since the space cops have reported this situation up their chain of command, hopefully actual representatives of the Xevoarchy will show up shortly. Let’s just hope that they get here before the Fel get a foothold thanks to the corrupting stygian energy leak.
Well… Irradon is there, and he does represent the aliens on Earth, so I’m assuming he’s also an interim representative of the Xevoarchy.
If Irradon has the authority to represent the Xevoarchy you’d think he would be negotiating with The Suit rather than Cora.
Cora’s the one who’s a friend of Dabbler though. And Irradon DOES represent aliens on Earth (Maxima already outright stated that when Sydney was introduced to the Council), so he’s the closest thing to a diplomat the aliens have for the Xevoarchy.
Yes, Irradon is the diplomat, Cora (and Dabbles) are the labcoats trying to warn the idiots of the danger
Then Cora and Dabbler are doing a crappy job since they do not seem to understand (as do several people, including you unfortunately) that scientific evidence without any credibility to back up that science (like… say… showing how the science and technology works to prove that the radiation actually exists in the first place) is NOT even remotely convincing.
Cora is arguing from the position of an adult telling a child not to put their hand in the fire, more or less. It isn’t a vested position, but more a socially expected one, in which a knowledgeable/experience member of a community passes on wisdom because They Should, not because it was an assigned or granted role.
Its a good thing there is a guy around to be a great big jerk. Also a good thing all the ladies like each other. Although it is interesting to imagine anyone of rank could give Max an order she didn’t want to do, and then she would have to do it. I mean, that can’t happen… can it? Could someone above her just order her to do a thing and she would do it? That seems waaay off message.
Yes and no
They are a military outfit – explicitly, someone can issue an order that Max would have to obey despite her personal feelings, assuming it was from a superior. At least on paper.
There are, of course, methods to ignoring orders – declaring you believe an order to be illegal, for example. these have consequences, of course. For example, if Max declared the above, she would then be confined until a panel was set up and a military court examined her claim. Anything that takes Max off active service is a huge deal, and her superiors would have to weigh the value of maintaining rank/respect over the consequences of not having her around (and the risk of having her thrown out of Archon, which permanently bars her from being an asset). which makes them hesitant to issue knowingly disagreeable orders.
Sydney’s statement is theoretically disrespectful, and may earn her a demerit. However, given her value as an active member (high), the level of disrespect (moderate to low), and how much safety net she has (next to nonexistent – she’s the lowest rank, already is finding Basic to be extremely hard, and is useless imprisoned), officially taking notice of her attitude is a bad idea on almost every level, so she shouldn’t get too much official flack for it.
Side note – none of these suits are in Max’s or Syd’s chain of command, I’m pretty sure. So none of them can issue a command and make it stick, as such. The only one in the room who could do that is on Cora’s side of the table, and keeping his mouth firmly shut atm. (unless someone in the joint chiefs, or the Potus, inserted one of them into Archon’s chain of command…which seems unlikely)
“Never give an order that will not be carried out.”
Technically yes, but power flows from the barrel of a gun, and Max is a pretty big gun. She is only outranked if she chooses to be. As a practical matter Max should something like standing presidential orders to use her discretion on the application of her powers. She is essentialy a nuke, safe guards regarding the ordered use of her powers would be commiserate.
> power flows from the barrel of a gun
This phrase has always annoyed me. Power *can* flow from the barrel of a gun, but that far from the only source. Bob’s boss has power over him because he has agreed to follow her orders. Bob is an adult but his parents have power over him because he respects them and cares about them. Bob’s God has power over him because Bob believes that not following God’s orders will result in being tortured for eternity as God repeatedly burns Bob’s skin off, sizzles the fat off his bones, burns the bones to ash, and then heals him up and start all over. Bob’s priest has power over him because Bob believes that the priest is passing on God’s orders.
Moreover, power from the barrel of a gun is probably the *weakest* source of power in the long run, because if you point a gun at someone then they are motivated to escape or fight.
May be the most weakest, it is also the most immediate
The real trouble with getting your hands on significantly advanced technology is that it’s often worthless to you.
Sad as it might be, you often can’t even analyze it much less reverse engineer it.
Take a computer chip back a measly century on our world, and they wouldn’t be able to figure it out. Even if they cut open the chip, the insides would be a perplexing mix of silicon with trace amounts of aluminum and/or copper. Their microscopes aren’t even powerful enough to make the circuit tracings identifiable. For that matter, they didn’t even have transistors.
Then there’s a lot of stuff in technology isn’t apparent in the products themselves, and that’s even harder to figure out, though it can be even more important. For instance, making our computer chips, we currently use variants of photolithography to make them. Though there is nothing in or on the chip itself that will tell you anything about the existence of that process.
We’ve also made some rather exotic substances that are chemically the same at the usual form, but are made with specific steps that can include specific temperatures or pressures at specific points in the process. Do it differently and the final result will not be the same. Some of the more unique materials have even included electrical currents or magnetic fields during the process.
We are also now beginning to use metamaterials that can have interesting topological structures that can change how things react as well. Some of those are microscopic, and again, the process to make them tends to be something that the end product gives no clue to.
But then again, it is an old trope in sci-fi and especially super hero stuff that someone gets a hold of super advanced tech, and within weeks they’ve recreated it and a whole host of related hypertech creations as well.
As to modern Earths sensors not being able to detect the fel energies, they can’t detect some of the things Dabbler does, and can’t even detect Sydney’s Orbs, even though they can see they apparently exist. For that matter, even Dabblers very advanced tech can’t pick up Halo’s Orbs. That single example alone is pretty much a undeniable proof that Earth sensor technology isn’t good enough to deal with a LOT of the stuff they may encounter.
It’s a really egotistical or stupid person that is willing to cause an interstellar instance for what will most likely be an incomprehensible pile of junk that will also cause an international incident with all the other countries that don’t have it.
Fun thought that you just reminded me of with that last paragraph: Sydney gets an obscenely powerful truesight with her orbs. It’d be interesting to see whether or not that could detect the Fel’s corruptive energies. As we don’t know what the orb renders visible to her, it naturally can’t confirm the lack of existence of such energy, but if she pops it on and sees something? It would certainly add weight to Dabbler and Cora’s argument, especially if it freaked her the flagnard out.
The more tech you have, the easier it becomes to build new tech. It’s also the case that the biggest obstacle to any new technology becoming available is someone conceiving of its existence in the first place – once an engineer knows something is possible, they’re generally pretty quick to figure it out. Footage of the Fel invasion, what sensor records they did get of the attackers and their active equipment before Max turned it into Mardi Gras confetti, and frankly the simple knowledge that aliens are, in fact, Out There, that they have FTL drives and energy barriers and all these other things that earth science (theoretically, if it’s mostly in line with IRL earth science) is mostly convinced isn’t even possible will be an enormous boost to engineering efforts to produce it.
It’s why concealing the mere existence of such things is such a huge deal and why Dabbler is/should have been one of the most disruptive technological discoveries of the century. Simply knowing that a handheld mass driver (that doesn’t liquefy the shooter with recoil) is possible would be huge. Knowing that FTL drives exist, in a state common and simple enough to become widespread to the point of private ownership (i.e. Cora’s ship) cuts what may well have been centuries off Earth’s development of such devices even if we never see one.
On the upside, humanity doesn’t need the Fel salvage. We have as much information as we were likely going to get just from records of the attack. On the downside, it’s entirely possible all this fancy tech requires exotic elements/materials not native to the planet, and the only possible source of such elements would be to acquire them in trade – forbidden by galactic law because the galaxy is full of snoblords who enjoy keeping other species locked on their homeworlds where they can’t advance – or by the sheer, nigh-impossible happenstance of a chunk of it slamming into Earth from space. You need FTL capability to develop FTL capability, and the existing “Galactic Community” knows this and counts on it to stay in control of space and ensure that species unwilling to submit to their rules/oversight stay safely tucked away on their planet where one convenient little ‘accidental’ kinetic impact can quietly erase the entire species with nothing more than a brief, easily-quashed public protest over GalNet.
Yeah. Suit Guy is being a dickwagon here, and a dumbass to boot, but if this situation were real I would ABSOLUTELY understand the overwhelming need to *get off this rock* as fast as humanly possible, before some Xevoarchy bureaucrat decides we’re more trouble than we’re worth.
“It’s why concealing the mere existence of such things is such a huge deal and why Dabbler is/should have been one of the most disruptive technological discoveries of the century. Simply knowing that a handheld mass driver (that doesn’t liquefy the shooter with recoil) is possible would be huge. Knowing that FTL drives exist, in a state common and simple enough to become widespread to the point of private ownership (i.e. Cora’s ship) cuts what may well have been centuries off Earth’s development of such devices even if we never see one.”
How? They wouldn’t even know where to start.
They wouldn’t know where to start, no. But they would know that starting is *possible*. They would know other folks have done it, successfully and widespread enough to make an entire interstellar civilization out of it. They’d have what records we have of Cora’s ship, the Alari refugees, the Fel battle dreidle, and the knowledge that the galactic community is essentially holding the Earth and the human species hostage until we can get off the planet.
What happens if the next Fel battle dreidle comes down on the opposite side of the planet from Maxima and gets a beachhead too large for a half-dozen supers to contain, even if they illegally executed operations outside their mandate? What happens when whatever the hell hit the Alari comes down on Earth because it doesn’t like Sydney’s face? Remember – we have *no evidence whatsoever* that the Xevoarchy races are even remotely more peaceful than Terra-bound human societies. That’s an informed attribute given to us from Dabbler, who is herself a hyperviolent adventurer sort with a thousand war stories. The whole “human society can’t be trusted not to be a bad actor until they figure this out themselves!” thing is bupkis – see the Fel as a prime example of “Figured out FTL themselves, ended up a bad actor anyways.”
No – galactic civilization and the Xevoarchy are being control freaks who enjoy threatening any species unable to spread beyond its homeworld with extinction. The knowledge that we’re being threatened with extinction, and that there exists easily(*) attainable technology that we can use to avoid/defuse that threat, would cut decades if not centuries off of our attempts to make FTL happen. As compared to today IRL, where we’re pretty sure FTL isn’t actually possible outside of imaginary negative matter somehow existing somewhere and reasonably convinced the only external threat to our continued existence is a meteor Bruce Willis doesn’t get to in time.
If they have access to ship blueprints and first hand accounts then it’s no longer “just the knowledge that it’s possible will be enough.”
“No – galactic civilization and the Xevoarchy are being control freaks who enjoy threatening any species unable to spread beyond its homeworld with extinction.”
When have they ever done that?
‘Knowing’ that something is possible is not nearly enough to reverse engineer it.
Assume for a moment that Star Trek is not an entertainment programe but that some fragments of it have arrived on earth from an actual spaceship that featured in that footage.
The logic that ‘knowing means reproducing in short order’ clearly does not apply. Otherwise just watching Star Trek and believing it is real means that our engineers should in a couple of years be able to build a function warp drive powered by anti-matter reactors. That there will be force fields that block lasers but not visible light. That we can teleport matter and create hard-light holograms.
Just seeing something and knowing it is possible will not allow an engineer to recreate it quickly. Or even slowly.
Just having some pieces of technology will not allow any scientist to reverse engineer it either.
Heh. Star Trek IS an entertainment program, though. Anything is possible in television. In the case that applies in the comic, it has been absolutely irrefutably demonstrated that FTL travel (and Star Trek-ish shields) is a physical reality, not a science fiction pipe dream. That demonstration, and the aforementioned “the Xevoarchy is imprisoning humanity” bit, will absolutely light a fire under tech development that would not be there if humanity was still unsure if FTL was even possible, let alone achievable on a private-ownership scale.
star trek is a terrible example precisely because it has inspired some people to try to develop the tech seen in the show and in some cases succede, hell the theory that we have about posible forms of FTL travel (which now we have some hints that tells us that it may actually be posible without negative energy), all this because a bunch of scientists are some huge nerds and absolutely refuse to believe that what they see in the show is imposible despite almost everyone else telling them that it cant be done
if suddenly we have 100% confirmation that FTL travel is not only posible but common place that would be a huge boon since half the journey is even knowing if something is posible
I have argued this may times and was ignored.As I said, my IQ is 137, just 6 points below genius. And I have been studying this for 40+ years.
That doesn’t matter on the interwebs where *everybody* is an expert (and will tell you so) and expects to be deferred to (and will tell you so.)
This is not necessarily optimal. Actually expert, smart, knowledgeable people get ignored rather often, and mocked as if they were fake rather often.
But then again, establishing credentials by assertion is also something that gets done a lot on the interwebs, and is generally met with skepticism because of the amount of fraudulent assertion that one encounters even in a brief exposure to, say, Facebook or Twitter. Simply saying that you’re being ignored despite having stated your inherent qualifications, isn’t going to convince anyone who has much experience online.
In the waning days of the 20th century a number of ‘helpful’ organizations decided to bring up the living standards of 3rd world countries by giving them clean water. They drilled wells and installed pumps. Once the water was flowing they walked away to their next project. One by one over time the pumps began to mechanically fail. The villagers lacked the skills or tools to repair the pumps and eventually they abandoned them and ended up going back to the same polluted rivers that had been using before.
The moral of this story is that if you supply tech above a civilization’s ability to maintain it, either train the locals on how to fix it or be willing to provide eternal tech support. *
* (for cultures below a certain technological threshold)
Suppose Cora said “Sure, we’ll give you the plans for an FTL engine. All you need to build it are the basics, like room temperature superconductors, an anti-gravity field generator, and the anti-matter to fuel it.”
As an aside, this is why hydraulic ram pumps are awesome if the situation allows. Self-powered and only 1 moving part.
“Suppose Cora said “Sure, we’ll give you the plans for an FTL engine. All you need to build it are the basics, like room temperature superconductors, an anti-gravity field generator, and the anti-matter to fuel it.” ”
Then my response, at least would be along the lines of:
“Thanks, we’ll take that deal. And thank you for pointing out a few useful areas of technology which are possible and have useful applications for when we figure them out, because that makes it a lot easier to know where to direct the funding.”
Cora could just as easily demanded 3 billion dollars to dispose of the ship
and here she’s offering to do it for free.
Do all Samsung tablets surpress the second of double letters?
Ofer
Fre
al
bilion
dolars
All 3 people behind Cora in panel 1: “I see where you’re coming from, but you’re still being a willfully blind idiot.”
The ironic part is that if America had the technology to detect the dangerous psychic radiation, they probably wouldn’t need to fight for the right to reverse engineer the technology producing it in the first place. There aren’t a lot of things we can detect, but not produce.
After all, you can turn any detector into an emission weapon by just reversing the polarity.
Cool. That means I can turn my 1970s CRT into a detector by reversing the reversal of polarity.
Sweet.
So that’s the real reason why they got rid of the old, perfectly fine working CRT TVs and switched to the flatscreen models! Genius!!
Just ask Krona if she can disable/erase from reality that psychic radiation technology (sorry guys, for the rest of the world your governement/military is far too stupid/warmonger to let you play with alien mind control) then make that ship property of the UN. This matter concerns the whole planet, not USA only.
Maybe it would help if Cora would explain it in terms of asking what would the US do -and why?-About a 1960s nuclear ramjet drone crashing on a cargo cult island and the islanders claiming the remains because they cant see this leaking radiation the Americans are screaming about. “Fire out! great Metal Bird now safe! We learn how to ride and get CARGO for ourselves! You just jealous we find it!”
↑ THIS!! ↑
+5
“And the technology within represents a chance for Americans to bring our nation to par with alien civilisations”.
Yeah, as one of the majority of the human race that ISN’T American, I’m not liking the sound of that deal at all. Also, Alien radiation stuff…
Right let’s give the UN the third-world tinpot dictators can vote on how they split it up good choice.
“Okay, how about this: you keep the salvage, but you store it in a facility Dabbler builds for you. That way, when the scientists and engineers all start growing bug mandibles and a hunger for the flesh of other sentient species, at least it’ll only affect idiots like you.”
It really does seem like Dabbler and Cora are thowing it back in their faces.
In the 19th century technology gap lead to colonialism . “Fardeau de l’homme blanc” “burden of white man”, “mission civilisatrice” “duty to bring ‘civilization'” and “manifest destiny” crap where justification to grab everything.
Hostility against the U.S.A will skyrocket on earth , and hostility agianst earth will become important galaxy-wide.
And if you where an Alien did you like to have a “Make America great agin” man no longer planet-locked.
If they are planet locked they could be ignored , otherwise they become a problem.
U.S.A is visualized brash and arrogant in Europe, considering allies like subordinates.
No, subordinates do what they are told or you fire them.
Try “nosy neighbors who want to tell us what to do” and “duplicitous snobs who don’t even follow their own vaunted ethical rules”.
Those of us who’ve paid attention for decades still remember the so-called-elites who in May of 2001 voted the US off of the UN Human Rights Commission, in favor of Pakistan, for a diplomatic jest to tweak Bush’s nose.
From that point on, I knew these were fundamentally not serious people.
It was no wonder the world held its breath three months later, after 9/11, to see what we would do. Bush could have nuked every Mosque in the Middle East and the US would have backed him. We’d have been terribly sorry about it later, but we’d have backed him then.
Even after the immediate danger of irradiation was over, Europe didn’t halt the French profiteering off of Saddam Hussein.
It will be interesting to see how much more corruption gets surfaced in this next Ukraine go-round.
In re: “we’d have backed him,” back that baking up, hoss. Maybe you would have. I wouldn’t. I could go into all the reasons why I didn’t trust Bush, but more importantly, I would never have backed murderous vengeance against an entire category of humanity that the hijackers fit into. Not even if you narrowed it to nuking Saudi Arabia (where 17 of the 19 hijackers and bin Laden where all from).
Support for the victims, their families, and the first responders was basically unanimous after 9/11. Support for George W. Bush, and by extension for any policies Cheney might have told him he supported, was not unanimous.
It’s in their social programation governement act like assholes pretty often.
USA is alredy the earth supepower, it could be worse.
“And the technology within represents a chance for Americans to bring our nation to par with alien civilisations”
But if USA become interstelar power , Donald Trump could be seen as earth representative.
Did you think aliens will be patient as your allies.
I’m french for me Trump is like an american Berlusconi or for local equivalent Marine Le Pen.
You… do realise, that the current POTUS in he GrrlVerse is Ohblamer, right?
I think he’s pointing out that by the time they managed to actually reverse-engineer it, Trump’d be in.
No way that the tech in question could be reverse engineered in only sixteen years, which is the maximum time frame (assuming that Obama was in his first year, and recognizing that presidents are limited to eight years) we are talking about. Even if there were anything intact enough to recover.
Ohblamer? Really? Shall we call you Guestanus? Or refer to the current President as Dumb-old Tramp?
Or we could actually be mature sapients, use people’s actual names, and keep the maturity above the Kindergarten level. That’s also an option.
Pointing out the fact that Donald Trump does not enjoy a stellar reputation in other countries on Earth (not to mention in large parts of the United States) and imagining that might not improve when that not-stellar reputation goes interstellar, is part of a mature discourse. We can address it, disagree with it, support it, etc.
Petty, childish name-calling only reveals bias or prejudice. It persuades no one and contributes nothing.
Of course, if you’re just being a troll, then you’re being a parasite who just wants to suck all the energy out of an actual discussion and direct it into a reaction against you, so that wouldn’t matter. So, which is it? Worthwhile person with something to contribute, or troll fixed to the backside of the Internet like a tick?
Since he’s a Kiwi, I sincerely doubt that there is a corrupt American political party (and that is the only kind of political party which exists in the U.S.) whose office holders you could insult that would upset him.
I’m not trying to insult him . . . I’m not concerned if I do, since I think he merits it, but it’s not the main point. The point is that name-calling isn’t contributory.
He (or you, since there’s certainly a non-zero chance that ‘Waysiyv,Y’ is a sock-puppet renaming of Guesticus) could, I suppose, be insulted by saying that he’s a not a Kiwi in the sense of a New Zealand national, but more a Kiwi in the sense of a Kiwi Party right winger. But that wouldn’t, as I said, be contributory.
Besides, I couldn’t care less about political wankery gets his Guestes in an uproar. I’m just here to read talk about Grrl Power and chew gum. And I’m all out of gum.
Guestanus
I love it. Appropriate name for the guy who loves to make an ass out of himself on the forum.
Damnit, why are there no “Insightful” or, better yet, “All the this!!!1!!” ratings on this forum?
People already call Trump names, why is that okay, butt Obama is off limits? o_O
In fact, Obama was always off limits, when every single other President was okay to be mocked and ridiculed? O_o
Oh, have called Trump names as well, pretty much called all POTUS names, not just Obama
Obama never seemed to be off limits around here. Tea Party whackadoodles carried signs with his face on the body of an ape, for **** sake. The train wreck we currently have in the Oval Office repeated pushed a baseless assertion that Obama was born in Kenya, primarily based on the color of his and his father’s skin. Senator John McCain, the man he ran against in 2008, was actually born in Panama while his parents were stationed overseas. He wasn’t, according to the law at that time, a natural-born citizen (he was automatically naturalized when his parents brought him into the United States, since they were both citizens). As a naturalized citizen, he was technically not qualified to run for President (the Constitution requires being either a natural-born citizen or someone who was born before the Constitution was ratified. McCain’s not quite that old). No one seriously brought it up. Wonder what the difference was where one had a manufactured claim that he wasn’t born in the USA, and the other had the actual fact that he wasn’t born in the USA glossed over?
Was he off limits in New Zealand, where you say you’re from? He sure as **** wasn’t here in the US of A.
The fact that every time someone says anything, anything, negative about Obama results in people like you jumping all over it
Just look at your post, launching into a rant over calling him ‘Ohblamer’
Again, they are all equal-opportunity targets of name-calling, hael, even call our own waste-of lime ‘leader’ as Arseburn
You seem to have a vested interest in defending Obama, if one misspelled word lead to such a long-winded rant
An accurate observation.
I didn’t jump all over it, I just pointed out two facts:
1. Name calling doesn’t advance any actual argument, nor does it persuade anyone to agree with your position (assuming you have one other than “name calling gets me excited”).
2. Your assertion that President Obama enjoyed special immunity from criticism or name-calling not only doesn’t match reality, but is in fact closer to the opposite of reality (people criticized him about a baseless assertion of not being qualified to hold the office, while his opponent got a free pass for actually failing to meet the same criteria).
Pointing out that you are wrong isn’t attacking you, or jumping on you.
Pointing out that you have a choice between being a troll who argues nonsense and calls names or being a person who actually has something meaningful to contribute is jumping on you a little bit. Fair’s fair. But that hardly started with me, or with your comment about an ex-President. You have a long history of being called out for trolling and/or spouting nonsense in the comments on this comic.
If I thought you were an utter loss, I’d just ignore everything with your name on it (although I suppose you could just switch to you ‘What . . . Yank” sock-puppet identity). I’m not quite there yet, though. I actually like some of what you write, and I think there’s something valuable and reclaimable down deep inside, like a once-swallowed diamond ring found sparkling in a dog turd.
No, you did jump all over that, you posted a big long-winded rant over one name, ignoring everything else about the post
And then, you start accusing anyone who doesn’t agree with you, to be a ‘sock-puppet identity’, and continue to insult me
You assert that “Obama never seemed to be off limits around here.” That’s just your opinion, because from over here, it seemed to be the opposite. Yes, people mocked him and carried banners, and they were brutally put down for it
Never said it didn’t happen, just that it was, just like here, jumped all over with hobnailed jackboots
Where were the comedians mocking him? SNL praised him and worshiped him, the few late night talk shows we got never said a damn thing against him, even though they attacked every one else
Let me correct one error in your statement. John McCain was a natural born citizen of the United States from the moment of his birth. There are laws in place that ensure the children of military personnel born overseas due to the parent being on mission are just as much a citizen as anyone born within the borders of the United States. There were a couple of married servicemen stationed with me in Germany in the early 80’s whose children fell under this rule.
I never understood the whole birther argument because Obama’s mother was a United States citizen and unless she had been out of the US for more than 5 years Obama would still be natural born no matter where he was born. This particular rule is why Ted Cruz, born in Vancouver Canada to a father who was not a citizen at the time, is still a natural born citizen eligible to run for the Presidency. His mother was a citizen, had not been out of the US for more than 5 years, and thus her child was natural born.
I feel like there are more than a few people who think suitguy has a point because they have no reason to trust that Dabbler and Cora aren’t lying to them, so I feel the need to point out that Dabbler has been working with Archon for months, and while she’s kept her tech to herself she’s always been honest about why (a combination of ‘it’s mine don’t touch it’ and ‘that would be breaking space laws’ iirc), and Cora has, in the space of about 24 hours, returned one of their more valuable supers and revealed many truths about alien life that has been hidden from the general public for generations, and helped fight off an alien incursion. Yes she brought the Fel (by accident) but she could have just left and let Earth deal with it, instead she stayed to help clean up her own mess.
These are not individuals who haven’t proved themselves. They have done a great many things that should have earned them some amount of good faith. Flat out ignoring these people because they could hypothetically be lying and then threatening to steal one of their ships (because yes, they would be unlawfully impounding Cora’s vessel and that would be stealing) is not okay.
And this isn’t even considering the fact that Humans likely can’t even begin consider reverse egineering ANY of the technology involved. Even the radiation detectors. It took 20 years to go from the original detection principle to making actual geiger counters.
“so I feel the need to point out that Dabbler has been working with Archon for months,”
And Dabbler still has an invisible handler from Arc Dark that is always watching her because, in Dabbler’s own words, “They do not trust me.” So why should the suits?
“Cora has, in the space of about 24 hours, returned one of their more valuable supers”
Which means she’s owed a favor, because she did it for her friend Dabbler, who is friends with Sydney, not that she is trustworthy.
“and revealed many truths about alien life that has been hidden from the general public for generations”
And also revealed that Dabbler has been lying to them. Proving that you have NOT been credible in the past is not a reason to think you are credible in the present. At least this is a reasonable thing for the suits to think. We, the audience, have more information.
“Yes she brought the Fel (by accident)”
Yes, she did bring the Fel in the first place. Also her ‘Fel Artifact of Unspeakable Cuddles’ – why is SHE able to have that on board? It’s Fel technology – isnt it corrupting her ship? If she has a way to PREVENT the corruption from taking over her ship, and the humans refuse to give up the Fel ship, show them how to use the technology she uses on the Fel Artifact to protect them from the corruption of the Fel ship? But no, that would be sharing technology. Which is why Cora is being unreasonable and not very bright from a diplomatic stance.
“but she could have just left and let Earth deal with it, instead she stayed to help clean up her own mess.”
She can also use the same technology to shield against the Fel Artifact of Unspeakable Cuddles to shield against the Fel Battlecruiser tech for the humans.
“These are not individuals who haven’t proved themselves.”
She did one good thing – retrieved Sydney. She did one bad thing – brought the Fel here in the first place. I don’t think she’s ‘proved herself’ to the US government by a longshot.
“They have done a great many things that should have earned them some amount of good faith”
‘One’ is not a ‘great many things’ sort of number.
“(because yes, they would be unlawfully impounding Cora’s vessel and that would be stealing) is not okay.”
Impounding is not stealing, if they are impounding it because she’s implied that she will destroy the ship from orbit or try to take it and throw it into the sun, which is something she’s insistent on.
“And this isn’t even considering the fact that Humans likely can’t even begin consider reverse egineering ANY of the technology involved.”
If only the humans had access to scientists who could help explain the science BEHIND the tech to reverse engineer it. Oh wait, they do.
Umm, Archon already knew the truth about Dabbles
Yes, they have scientists to explain the science behind the tech, and they are the ones telling you it’s a bad fucking idea
“they have scientists to explain the science behind the tech, and they are the ones telling you it’s a bad fucking idea”
No, they have scientists to explain the science behind the SCANNER TECH. You know, the tech that would make it MUCH EASIER to convince the humans of how dangerous the Fel technology was if the aliens were not so stodgy with ALL alien technology?
Yeah, and how long will it take for the Suit Guy’s handpicked trained scientists to understand the scanner tech?
Before or after USA becomes the local Fel hive-state? o_O
Probably the same amount of time it takes Cora’s ship to become a hive because of the Fel Artifact of Unspeakable Cuddles, which is on Cora’s ship and has been for days with no ill effects to Cora or her crew or the Alari on board or Sydney.
Also, if only they had a scientist who could BREAK DOWN AND EXPLAIN how the science works, so that the earth scientists don’t have to work from scratch in figuring out the scientific principles behind how the scanner works with empirical evidence? Oh wait. They DO have that. Dabbler. But Dabbler won’t EXPLAIN anything. For ‘reasons’ that seem to be more important than the risk they claim about the Fel ship tech.
May I also add that she behaved like a condescending arrogant, only to be proven wrong in every single thing she said? And that she greatly underestimated supers times and times again, despite all she was shown? She just have a basic understanding of baseline human, but she didn’t even know of supers existence, let alone magic and other supernatural beings. For all we know, supers could be just immune to fel radiation, in addition to being immune to ugliness…
Considering 90% of Dirt Monkeys didn’t know about the existence of supers, magic or other supernatural beings only three months ago, how do you expect someone who has spent nearly their entire life away from Dirt know about them?
For all we know, supers could super vulnerable to Fel radiation, and then you have Super Fel who don’t need ships or weapons to conquer entire galaxies
That’s exactly what I am saying: she has no knowledge of the actual situation on earth, she made wrong judgement and wrong callings times and times again in her two days on earth, and still she is acting all high and mighty, like she was the only one with a working brain. My problem is not that she is not qualified to be an ambassador or to take the decision for the ship, is that, DESPITE THAT, she still insist to be the one calling the shots
Maybe that’s because she is the only one (well, one of four) who knows anything about the Fel at all
She may not know the situation on Dirt (again, just like 90% of the population), butt she does know Fel and the wider Galactic community and what the likely outcome would be
Cora, don’t throw random junk into the sun. It’s not good for its core or longevity. Please take the time to tow it to a Xevoarchy-marked disposal black hole and toss it in there (or at least a neutron star). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWwbMnXQ7bo
The sun is already about 0.2% iron. You could throw earth into it, and it wouldn’t be enough additional iron to affect the fusion and fission processes.
WOW he made a Winamp reference. I don’t know to give him old school credit or diss him for not knowing anything newer.
It really whips the llamas ass
Remember, in their timeline it’s still 2010. He really doesn’t know anything newer.
Should those agents threaten to have Archon disbanded upon returning to Washington and refer to Maxima’s actual Air Force rank;”Airman 1st class Leander,you will be returned to kitchen duty!”
They’ll consider Sydney’s orbs to be government property as well…!
They rightly should be American property. She took them from American waters, didn’t report as salvage etc.
Btw this is actually a good question. :) But if Arianna is any sort of good attorney (which I’m assuming she is since Archon takes only the best of the best, especially when it comes to non-powered individuals like Leon or Peggy or possibly Mathias), she could come up with an argument AGAINST that sort of claim, since she’s technically Sydney’s attorney and has to zealously advocate for her, not for the government, as her first priority and duty.
Technically, salvage laws only recognize a ship or craft, the cargo on board, freight, and bunkers as salvage. So… depends on if the were able to argue that the orbs are themselves a ship.
Which can be… arguably true or false? The orbs could be defined as a ship, or it could be defined as something that makes SYDNEY a ship instead (or a deep exploration suit) – if it’s the latter two things, then it wouldn’t be salvage. If it’s the former, then it would be salvage.
You could probably make a good argument either way. And in the case of ambiguity, the law generally will go towards what’s more favorable to Sydney – that it’s not salvage material. In which case it’s hers, even if she did not report it as salvage. Sort of like if you find a really cool seashell while snorkling in an area open to the public and take it for your seashell collection.
Although if they base it on who owns a meteorite, it could get hazier. Usually the meteorite belongs to the landowner, although when it’s on public land, there have been a FEW court cases saying that meteorites on public land are government property, but the OVERWHELMING majority of Bureau of Land Management offices say it belongs to the person who finds it, especially since they tend to be found in places like vast stretches of desert. I’d think that territorial water that is not being actively used by the government would have a similar ruling in the courts, and the orbs would legally belong to Sydney then.
Prepare the nerve weasels!
Viva la sectionists!
Is Sydney forgetting she is not only in a military organisation but employed by the Government who pay her bills? Where the hell does she get off talking to her countries representatives like that and siding with a damn immigrant over the US! She does what she is told or should be arrested for not following orders or collusion with a foreign power. Yet more people who want to stop America from being rightly on top. Realistically speaking the orbs belong to the Government as well seeing as she took them from Florida waters, not file or report salvage or ascertain the owner of the objects. If she spouts off that only she controls them, well that is simple, once she is executed by firing squad for treason to mother America we give them to a true American who thinks of America first, not last.
The USn is not rightly, to take the oil from countries who are not militarily strong, is not a right it is an act of war. The “Manifest Destiny” that the us claimed was morally right, was not. Just ask the American Indians, how that turned out!!
Legally right? Depends on if you consider Right of Conquest and Right of Discovery to be legitimate claims on land which, back then, they were (including by many of the non-nomadic native american tribes). And in some cases there were actual purchases (Manhattan most notably). Usually there was Right of Conquest by either a European power or Russia, then the US purchased it (ie, Louisiana Purchase, Florida, Alaska) or fought a war to leave the European power (ie, original 13 colonies, Texas rebelling and separating from Mexico and the subsequent annexation).
Morally right? That also depends on which morality you’re using? Today’s morality or the morality from back then? If you use today’s morality, it was definitely immoral. If you use the morality of the time, it was just a moral as the wars that native american tribes had with each other (especially the large ones that were empires or other mor organized types of tribal governmental confederation forms, like the Five Nations).
Although even back then, the number of treaties the US government would regularly violate with most native tribes was immoral, even for the time in which it happened.
Cora is not an immigrant.
“Now who can argue with that? I think we’re all indebted to Gabby Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said. I’m particularly glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.”
In other words, what a load of toxic waste . . . and I don’t mean the cruiser.
At what point is Archon going to tell the feds that the reason the bad guys showed up was that Cora’s ship parked on the front lawn has the Mother of all McGuffins on board? And that the bad guys will continue to send recovery teams to try to take it back as long as she is here?
Oh, and did we mention the new batch of alien refugees?
General Faulk has probably told the President.
That these two scrubs haven’t brought that up just means that they aren’t very high on the totem pole.
Or they don’t consider a bunch of Alari refugees with no useful technology to be important. Plus you can’t salvage PEOPLE … that would be called slavery (and yes, even aliens would fall under the definition for slavery – the legal definition is ‘person’ not ‘human’ there).
And since the space cops seen what happened the likelihood of a star destroyer class military ship to supervise the salvage and clean up showing up as soon as possible is very high. That will push the situation from tense to armed standoff and that is where ARC is pushed to choose sides between doing what is right and obeying government officials. Time will tell if that elevates ARC to international level authority or some other unexpected sidetrack of the storyline.
The Xevoarchy are slow to decide anything.
It’s quite likely that by the time their representatives get there either the earth will be a Fel hive or will have been forced to admit that the only rational way to deal with the ship remains is to toss it into a star.
Because if the hull is emitting Stygian energy it would likely draw mor Fel even sitting out in space.
If the Xevoarchy consider the Fel ship a significant enough threat to be worth sending a cruiser to monitor the disposal/clean-up, then that might actually be a best-case scenario in the long term. Certainly the fact of its presence alone is evidence that can inform the decisions. Ideally the Terran decision-makers would be able to speak to the Xevoarchists before they have a chance to confer with Cora, so they can independently either corroborate or contradict her claims of a hitherto unknown radiation field. At the very least, the monitoring presence of the Xevoarchy provides reassurance that they can backstop the situation against rapid escalation while a course of action is agreed. Being accredited officers of an interplanetary body, as opposed to a single freelancer and her crew, should also give them greater gravitas in negotiations and greater authority to trade concessions.
I say that if the peacekeepers want to get rid of it, they have to exchange something of equivalent technological value that isn’t a horrific cognitohazard.
Why is that the peacekeepers responsibility to replace it? They’re just clearing a hazard, not confiscating a useful tool.
Demanding compensation for cleaning up the hazardous ship is like a farmer near a war zone demanding a new tractor before “allowing” the bomb squad to remove enemy-planted land mines from their field. Sure, the farmer might want to kick them off for trespassing and could conceivably find a way to use unstable explosives to till the soil. But even if the trained squad can’t convince them its a bad idea, it would be irresponsible to just walk away and watch from a safe distance.
This is an excellent analogy
At least have Sidney LOOK at it with true sight. She can see spells and other types of energy. If she sees some strange glow from the ship…
Yes, lets also have someone who has just said she will not follow order of her government, isn’t patriotic and would side with the aliens who gave her a lift. She is also bringing in alien immigrants. Wouldn’t trust her judgement the same as wouldn’t trust Cora or Dabbler. America first.
There are no (legal or illegal) immigrants.
Honestly, a dangerous assumption that if you give a monkey an iPad that it can disassemble it and learn something. They’d learn way more with an off-line copy of space-wikipedia. I imagine there are those out there who’d rather give a relatively underdeveloped world a leg up than have them become a hive of space-faring evil.
“Psst. Sydney, can you please go with Maxima and haul the wreckage to the sun while these guys argue with Cora and the General? Ok swell. Oh by the way, you two are going to be part of a brief, ah, ‘recon’ expedition to Fel space. Which is happening to expand towards another civilization. If you should happen to, uh, ‘engage’ the enemy and destroy their invasion force, be sure to ask for some generic starship parts from the very grateful civilization you ‘accidentally’ saved.”
Maxima isn’t likely to disobey her superiors and go off with some raw recruit that has no idea how government and military work. It is a hostile force on American soil, defeated by Americans. It belongs to America. Any one who tries to take is either a traitor to America and must face justice or declared to be against America which means they are an enemy. They should seize Cora’s ship, arrest the crew and while at it Dabbler as its shown her true colors, hence she was being watched by X. Laughably claims to be an American yet soon as the aliens friend shows up sides with her. Have the arc intelligence look at it to decide what we will do with it.
There no longer is any hostile force on American soil.
No prisoners were taken.
There was one which was dealt with and another one in blue who is about to become one. She will also be dealt with once she and her ship are taken in for protective custody seeing as she is daring to threaten the greatest country on the planet. Now we have made an example of these Fel and can use their tech to get America back among the stars where we rightfully belong, we will make an example of this Cora to show that no one talks to the greatest country on Earth like that, we are in charge not her.
There is no blue Hostile force.
I have to ask, because Poe’s law:
Are you being serious, or are you parodying the probable attitude of certain people?
—
Because if you’re being serious, then you’re asking for the suits to get seriously dead.
Remember the ally scene? And how those were her *small* weapons. What do you think she’d do if you tried to restrain her against her will and she thought you actually stood a chance? I don’t think anyone other than Max, Sydney or Achilles (or Dabbler) would be able to stand near her if she was fighting seriously.
Not to mention that with her hard-light suit, she could simply turn into an impenetrable ball of mono-molecular blades, and then you can’t even touch her while she comms to her ship for strafing runs and pickup (because of course she has a comm-implant – she’d be an idiot not to have one in addition to having comms tech in the light-suit).
—
We’re in a situation where “rule of law” doesn’t work, because the most powerful people in the room don’t subscribe to your laws, and they’re so much bigger than you that they really don’t need to care what you think.
The fact that Cora is talking to this guy at all, rather than just leaving, shows that she’s being very, very nice. If she’d wanted to just be a bit nice, she’d have just disposed of it and not bothered to explain anything.
She sides with rationality!
She should mind her own business and do as she is told like any soldier.
Soldiers evaluate their orders and make sure they are lawful.
…
I’ll not paraphrase Luke Skywalker at you but … that’s a lot of mistakes and unfounded assumptions.
Cora is not denying that the USA has salvage rights. She outright states that she agrees that it does.
She is warning that the debris is heavily contaminated with a toxic substance that the earth does not have the technology to detect nor contain. The general is responding to that with a ‘I can not see it so it is not real’. NOt exactly mature and certainly not an argument. Not at all intelligent either.
You can only be a traitor if you aid a foreign government or invading army against the interests of your own government, and there is a certain degree of wilfulness required too for that definition to stick. Of course that has not in the past stopped any government from declaring whatever dissident they disliked as a traitor and convict them as such. Cora however is not an american citizen so she can not, by definition, betray the USA.
There is not, and we should all be grateful for that, a crime of being ‘against the USA’. That’s the stuff of tyrannical regimes (and Orwellian nightmarish onces at that). This statement declares the USA, or more specifically its government, as flawless and above critique. McCarthy tried this in the 1950s, and was quickly shut down again by even the most stalwart anti-communists at the time realised the vast government overreach McCarthy was committing by declaring certain harmless actions and even certain ideas ‘unamerican’ and harshly punishable.
More recently Bush the Lesser and his wrecking crew used the argument to browbeat the population into a perpetual war in the middle east, and look how that turned out. Trump has been making a variation of this argument by telling his supporters that ‘you are with me. Everybody else is your enemy’. That is the soil from which civil wars grow.
The USA has no right to seize Cora’s ship. The worst they can charge her with is being an illegal alien, since she just entered the country without a valid visum, and not at a recognised port of entry either. They, possibly (not realisitcally), can make an argument that they can /impound/ her ship while they sort out her legal status but even that is wrong since Cora was specifically /asked/ to come to Earth to return the Archon recruit who had gotten herself lost in space (while saving the lives of her team). She was then invited, again by the USA government or one of its legal representatives, to stay a while longer and inform the global population that there is a vast galaxy out there full of intelligent species.
Threatening to steal her ship and maroon her on the planet is a poor way to repay her service.
It also is astoundingly shortsighted.
The general, and by extension you, has absolutely no idea what Cora herself is capable of, what her crew can do with technology our scientists may not even recognise as technology. He has not the first idea what support Cora can draw on and blindly assumes she is a lone actor without a state or organisation backing her up. Nobody should be able to imagine they can ‘just lock up Cora’ without expecting some pretty serious repercussions. From alien nations or organisations that have FTL capability and weapons to match.
Not to mention that it sends a message to the rest of the galaxy that Earth is as violent and primitive as expected but also an even greater threat than the Fel. And that it would be a smart idea to remove them from existence with extreme prejudice before they have a chance to spread.
If Dabbler is a naturalised american citizen then her claim is not laughable, just because you do not like her opinions or actions anymore. As a citizen she is subject to American laws, and has a right to the same protections as any other citizen. She is however not a member of Archon, she has been described as a ‘sort of civilian contractor’ and as such she is not subject to the same chain of command nor to the UCMJ the way Maxima is. She is not entirely outside of it either (but that is the problem you create when you fill your military ranks with mercenaries. They are, well, mercenary in their loyalty).
Last I looked at it telling an idiot that he is acting like an idiot is not a criminal offense. Not even if said idiot has a military rank. Dabbler telling the general that the wreckage is lethally dangerous and that he should order it destroyed post haste is actually her doing her due dilligence as civilian contractor. She is the expert explaining to the general that his brilliant plan actuall is not. That you think this means she ‘shows her true colours’ says something about you not actually about Dabbler.
Whether or not Arc-dark fully trusted Dabbler has exactly no bearing on the issue at hand that you claim she should be summarily arrested for voicing an opinion contrary to that of a general who can not possibly have any idea of what the technology he wants to claim is capable of in terms of wreaking havoc on the plant. Cora and Dabbler, by virtue of being from societies of similar or superior technological level as the Fel, have a reasonable claim to expertise. The general can dismiss their warnings as self-serving, but that does not alter the fact that he has no idea, at all, what the technology is and is not capable of. He is arguing from truthiness (believing something because he wants it to be true and ‘feels’ it must therefore be true) not from rationality. Arguing that the USA should initiate hostilities towards Cora and Dabbler because they point out that the general’s greed for advanced technology will have lethal consequences is just flat out wrong.
And of course this entirely ignores the fact that there is nothing the USA, or the entire planet for that matter, can do to detain Cora or Dabbler if they do not want to stay. Dabbler can teleport, has an aura that instantly makes everybody in range falls madly in lust with her and the personal weapon that she choose to reveal to the primitive dirtworlders was designed to destroy asteroids. Our entire planet does not have the energy output yet to do that. Dabbler hinted that she kept her more powerfull weapons hidden away. If Dabbler really wants to leave she could just summon her lethal weaponry and blow away not just the wall but everything up to fifty miles behind it, then walk out of the smoking ruin and teleport to her laboratory (and presumably her way off planet)
As for Cora, she commands a space ship that is apparently capable of high fractions of lightspeed. We are talking about the energy output of suns here. When the ship is not moving all that energy can be used for shields and weapons. She already said she has anti-matter cannons, and that firing them in the atmosphere is a very bad idea. But if she does not care about the planet and its inhabitants then why not sterilise the place with a massive gamma radiation burst that such a weapon would produce. Or if she really can not get away and feels that the choice becomes between suicide and becoming Fel herself she could just self destruct her ship, destroying the entire continent and not leaving much of a planet behind either.
And finally there is the general idiocy of trying to act like a bully when you have pretty much no power compared to the rest of the school class. Banking on the one superhero you have that has shown enough power to deal with a single hostile spaceship is not sane policy any way you can look at it. Making enemies of the entire galaxy, of which you only know it is there but have not the first clue about its military capabilities, is beyond idiotic even for a comic book general. But if the prize is big enough I guess generals can be as idiotic as they feel ike being.
Just want to point out one thing wrong with your post: the moron in a suit isn’t a general, he’s just a jumped-up lawyer, the General is sitting beside Cora saying nothing… for now
To me, it seems like Cora’s best bet is to offer a trade. Depending on the technology available, a functioning fabber tank (lower tech version of a ST replicator) would probably be worth more than the entire Fel ship since anything in it will have to be taken apart and analyzed for years before being usable. It also probably wouldn’t get humans that far ahead, half of all technological advancement is in the infrastructure to support something. Could we build a tank full of nanobots? Eventually. Would having one that can make more of itself be life altering planet wide? Absolutely.
I suppose there’s other options as well. A couple dozen self contained fusion cores ready to plug and play might be worthwhile as well. Again, lower level tech that’s either immediately useful or would require radical shifts. Building sized fusion plants ‘probably’ wouldn’t alter human tech development that much.
Cora does not have to make any offer at all.
She is warning the representative of the american army (not even its government though given how militaristic the country has become that is arguable) that the wreckage of the Fel ship is dangerous in ways that can not be detected by Earth level science and technology.
She has no obligation to prevent humanity from committing suicide by Fel. Except that being human herself she might feel some lingering loyalty to her species. If the general orders Maxima to prevent her from removing the wreckage from earth and Maxima agrees to those orders (rather than resigning her commission) then she may well come to the conclusion that there are several million humans in space already so the species will not die out when the Fel take over the planet and the Xevoarchy then sterilises the planet with a couple of relativisitic kill asteroids.
Right now humanity are toddlers compared to the rest of the galaxy when it comes to science, technolog, magic and general understanding of things. Cora is a grown up telling the toddlers they can not play with the matches. And when the toddler will not listen to reason you do not replace the matches with a safety pin. You simply take the matches away and let them have their tantrum. It will pass soon enough when something shiny distracts them.
USAF Insignias on Class-A Uniforms for any General officer and for Lt. Colonels are silver, sir
Sorry, too lazy to read 600 comments.
I’m sure someone has brought it up, but there’s too great of a technology gap to
reverse engineer an alien spaceship.
Take a 1949 Dumont, a 1995 Panasonic and a 2015 Vizio.
They’re all televisions but each works on different principles.
Experts from 1938 could figure out the Dumont.
The tubes are virtually the same as the ones they’re familiar with.
The Panasonic? Probably not.
Maybe there are some transistors that aren’t in Integrated Circuits in the power supply or audio amplifier.
Not sure if they’d recognise that it’s something like germanium detector of a crystal set.
They might be able to figure out the picture tube.
The Vizio? No. It’s magic.
And that’s less than 100 years.
There’s reverse engineering, and then theres having someone available to explain how the thing works and break down the scientific principles so you don’t HAVE to reverse engineer it.
“We don’t trust you to tell us the truth about psychic radiation, and impounded your ship for getting in our way (sorry about the missing parts, must have gotten lost in the transit). Umm, now that we have some space tech (it fell out the back of a truck, honest. It has your name on it? Just a coincidence), can you help us reverse engineer it?”
It’s completely legal to impound a vehicle of a person who is currently committing a crime.
The Fel ship is legally US property.
If Cora tries to steal the ship, or is threatening to steal or destroy the ship (she isn’t, but what she said can be implied that she is), then it is completely legal to impound her ship, just like if someone robs a bank and you impound their vehicle, or someone destroys a statue and you impound their car so they can’t drive away.
The rest of what you said literally has not happened at all in this scenario, AT ALL. In fact, the humans have complete legal authority to do each thing they’ve said. The things you just stated, they did NOT say in the comic at all. That’s strawmanning in order to change what is actually happening into something easier for you to debate, by making the fictional other side fit a false scenario of being evil and in the wrong.
It’s not strawmanning, it’s hyperbole (or is it deliberate exaggeration? can never remember the difference) based on what has been said slashed implied would happen
Suit Boy straight up said he would impound Cora’s ship if she continued to cock-block him over something that has yet to be fully legally proven to be his
What? Only you can do that? Because you are a lawyer?
No, not exaggeration, extrapolation: taking something that has been said and going down a possible future path
And never said that impounding her ship was wrong (or right), just that they would only have impounded because she got in their way (preventing them from getting their grubby paws on something they shouldn’t have, not because they are inferior to garden mould {which they are, lawyers}, butt because it was dangerous for anyone to have)
Yes Guesticus, it IS strawmanning. Strawmanning is when you are unable to counter an argument, so instead you rephrase the argument you’re debating, with data and scenarios that were not in the original argument. Which is what is happening. If you have to create stuff that did not happen in the comics in order to have something that you can successfully argue against then that is ‘creating a strawman argument.’ It is not hyperbole. It is not exaggeration (although exaggeration would also be an example of strawmanning, because exaggerations mean you’re arguing against something that did not actually happen as well). It’s also not extrapolation, because you have no logical reason to assume that you know what the suits would be saying next, when what they’ve been saying until this point is actually very logical from an in-universe standpoint.
You arent even making a similar scenario to argue against, which at least would not be strawmanning. You’re claiming the existence of something completely DIFFERENT in the basic premise of the argument in the comic. If it was at least a thought experiment that you were explaining, that would be something. But you’re not even doing that :/.
“What? Only you can do that? Because you are a lawyer?”
Actually I have not made any strawman arguments. Or, in lawyer-speak, I have not introduced facts not in evidence.
Didn’t rephrase anything, didn’t change what was already said
Didn’t say you made any strawman arguments, was saying that it seems only you are allowed to come up with scenarios that haven’t happened yet
There is a differnece between coming up with scenarios that have not happened yet to use as examples, and claiming those scenarios actually happened in the above scenario being argued. The latter is strawmanning. And it’s something that you’re very prone to doing way too frequently.
I’m honestly not sure if you understand what strawmanning is though, which could be why you keep falling into that method of arguing, and why you’ve stated, elsewhere that something you said is not strawmanning even when I’m not suggesting certain things you say are strawmanning.
To be clear, strawmanning is creating a scenario which did not happen, which you then put in the place of what did happen, and claim that that fabricated event IS what happened, so you can argue that instead of what actually happened. Which is what you’ve done multiple times even when it’s pointed out to you that you’re doing it. It’s a common debating fail that people fall into when they cannot argue their points consistently with the facts presented as is.
Again, didn’t say they actually happened, and never claimed they did
“We don’t trust you to tell us the truth about psychic radiation, and impounded your ship for getting in our way (sorry about the missing parts, must have gotten lost in the transit). Umm, now that we have some space tech (it fell out the back of a truck, honest. It has your name on it? Just a coincidence), can you help us reverse engineer it?”
This is what you just posted. You then were arguing against that. The above statement is a strawman statement – a statement which never happened in the comic. That is what is known as making a fictional weak argument – ie, the man in your scenario is making an argument as brittle as straw. Ie, a strawman argument. You were arguing against that statement. Do you see how that means you are ‘making a strawman argument’ now?
I’m not sure how I can explain how you can identify when you are and are not making strawman arguments more clearly.
It still comes down to, the only ones who could (or would) help them reverse engineer the stuff they should not be getting their hands on, are the same ones they don’t trust to tell them it’s not safe to have that Fel ship remain outside of a the nearest star
You forget Dabbler and Deus, just to mention the two most prominent super tinkerers we already know; then we have all the other super tinkerers whose existence has been already mentioned. Then we have actual magic. Then we have someone with admin privileges over the reality itself. I think they are covered pretty well. If she want to help she can provide information, but she is not the one calling the shot, especially if we consider her track record of not knowing jack shit of what she is talking about.
Hadn’t forgotten Dabbles, and, as much as would like to, someone won’t let me forget about SmugD :P
The only thing Cora hasn’t known anything about, are Supers, and three months ago, neither did 90% of the fucking population of Dirt!
I’m glad to know that I’m doing my part to make sure you remember the true hero of this story, Deus, manliest man that ever manned, savior of the world, the hero we deserve AND need.
:) :) :)
… the alien cops are calling it in.
A tow vessel will soon arrive, and seize the warship under Galactic law.
Cora also gets a parking ticket for landing on a pre-FTL world without the proper permits.
And she deserves it too.
Maxima gets a “disturbing the peace” … as her beam travels who-knows-how-far into the “neighborhood” before fully dissipating. (pretty sure she didn’t know what was behind THAT target, within the range of her beam. Somebody may have lost a satellite, at least.) lol
According to past references, the Xevoarchy hasn’t done anything fast since it was founded.
By the time the Xevoarchy arrives either earth will be a Fel hive, or the wreck will have been towed off planet. Cora will be gone by then, but the space cops just might arrive at a precipitous time to encounter Thothogoth.
“the Xevoarchy hasn’t done anything fast since it was founded” – Just Sayin’
… Although if the Xevoarchy did break with the habits of a lifetime to send a fast cruiser to monitor the disposal/clean-up, that would be a powerful argument that it’s crucial to get it done right.
If only someone on Earth had an undamaged Alari spacecraft with a translated and annotated operator/maintenance manual for sale for 2.3 billion US Dollars and/or unnamed future favors to a small African country, then the US wouldn’t be so obstinate about keeping a contaminated Fel wreck.
Actually, the knowledge that Deus of all people has (potential) access to an Alari spacecraft to examine would probably scare the suits into pushing harder to acquire an alien ship as well, not give one up and ask him to share.
Sure, given enough money he might share some of what he’s learning, maybe even be all of ‘his’ discoveries eventually… But between his personality, his track history, and his current commercial and political power and policies, there’s not a lot of reason to expect him to share any discoveries with the US.
Not without an eye on the oval office, or higher
Why don’t they just move the wreckage to the secret research base on the far side of the moon, where any contamination can be contained, so when it goes all DOOM/Resident Evil, the Earth will be fine and Cora and Dabbler can say “Told you so”
I was surprised enough by the amount of debate & number of comments this page sparked to write a quick comment stat script. For the 741 comments so far, and based on an average word length of 6, we can see who has the most time on their hands this week. :D
Top 5 by word count:
Pander – 17,086
Woodrobin – 3,363
Dal – 2,159
Guesticus – 2,088
Erianaiel – 1,916
(The other 208 individuals total 29,411 words)
Top 5 by post count:
Pander – 133
Guesticus – 63
Dal – 39
brichins – 21
Woodrobin – 17
(The other 208 individuals total 468 posts)
I see my guesstimate wasn’t THAT far from truth :) Thanks
Woo! I win the contest of maximum verbosity!
If that means ‘maximum hot gas exiting from extremities’, then well done, have a cookie
Guesticus cmon, I know that you don’t like losing arguments to me, but you don’t like when Oberon or others make personal attacks at you, so don’t make personal attacks at me when I’ve always been courteous to you (plus when I defend you when others make personal attacks at you instead of arguing with your statements).
Unless you’re trying to be humorous (but I just don’t find a personal attack to be humorous considering that you should know better based on what people have said to you).
Yes, it was a joke, used ‘have a cookie’ to indicate that rather than using a more obvious “:)” or “:P”
Okay :) Happy to know it was a joke. Never heard the ‘have a cookie’ thing except in Austin Powers, when Austin Power’s dad used it insultingly. :)
And yeah I don’t have a lot to do this week. Have a lot of free time on my hands until October 15th. :)
Unfortunately your script can’t evaluate commentators based upon how valid their arguments are. Pander obviously knows a lot about the legal system in the United States, and her comments reflect that. A certain other commentator (who shall remain unnamed) however is quick to supply his opinion on subjects he knows nothing about. A real poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Her comments also reflect a complete dismissal of the notion that Cora has restraints based on the legal system she is bound by.
Because Pander for ‘Murica!
No, My comments reflect that in most cases, pre-FTL civilizations are not capable of repelling a Fel attack with a handful of soldiers, and that humans already have several examples of technology that meets or EXCEEDS the Xevoarchy (Sydney, Deus, the Council, which does include humans). And Cora has consistently misjudged human capability in the brief time she’s been with them. Plus Cora has already defied the legal system that she is supposedly ‘bound by’ when she ferried Sydney from Fracture Station back to Earth, bypassing the normal routes where her orbs would not be able to pass through legally because her orbs make the most advanced alien species look like cavemen in comparison.
You missed the post from Pander where she stated she is arguing the side of Suit Guy (playing Devils Advocate) simply because she can?
And when someone counters her arguments, she claims Strawmanning
No, I am arguing the side of the Suit Guy because, in universe, he’s making complete sense if you don’t use real world meta-knowledge of the storyline.
And I claim strawmanning only when….. someone uses a strawman argument. Which tends to be you, Guesticus, at least here.
Not that I still don’t have respect for you, Guesticus, since I do :)
She is just angry because they rubbed her face in all the bullshit she spewed out until now; she has been all condescending and then it turned out nothing of what she said was actually right, so why should they start to believe her now? She knows NOTHING of the actual situation and capabilities of earth, but she keeps assuming she is the only one knowing what to do, and all those stupid peons should just stop complaining and start doing what she says. Even admitting she has any previous knowledge in dealing with pre-FTL civilization, which I strongly doubt, we have seen that earth is anything but your standard civilization: we have supers that can deal with any kind of situation. If that were not enough, there is literally magic, nad in the really extreme cases there is someone with admin privileges over reality itself. If she really wants to help she should provide information, not trying to boss people around.
DaveB, Who is the person with the black eye and banged up fist in the vote incentive? Likely this has been answered, however, as I almost never read the comments,* I will have missed the pertinent comment and reply, if any.
*I find the comments to have too high a quotient of speculation and thereby containing entirely too much potential for spoilers.
I have been following this comic for a good while, usually there is nothing that I might write that could make a positive contribution and therefor I refrain. The comic itself is quite interesting, the premise, while not original is handled in such a manner as to provide a sufficient “suspension of disbelief” as to be entertaining.
That’s Jabberwocky.
She is Jabberwocky, ex-villain from the restaurant battle (https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-213-a-manxome-foe/) now temporary recruit on probation (https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-546-meet-the-new-grrl-same-as-the-old-grrl/)
Wow some of the comments are incredibly stupid the USA suits are totally in the wrong Cora is the expert they should be listening to her its a duh thing. ANYONE with HALF a brain cell would listen to scientists and experts, but then conservatives are too stupid for that basic thought process, also the people who say Sydney should just follow orders are MORONS. EVERYONE should question EVERY order given ESPECIALLY soldiers, why? because soldiers have a duty to their country more than to superiors I am pissed that our forces in syria are obeying the order to pull out and abandon the Kurds EVERY single soldier in that region should have DISOBEYED that illegal order to allow human rights abuses. Blindly following orders is for robots NOT human beings.
A very basic part of being “scientists and experts” is that you back up your recommendations with evidence, and that said evidence is open to inspection by anyone who is sufficiently interested and/or insufficiently convinced. Cora and Dabbler are refusing to meet that fundamental standard, and instead asking to be believed effectively on faith. We as the readers know that they’re supposed to be the ‘good guys’, and that DaveB is writing a superhero comic; we therefore ‘know’ that the ‘good guys’ are usually right and that when Chekhov puts a gun on stage it will go off.
The Suits do not have that benefit of the fourth wall. All they see is an unknown person who has already established herself to be irresponsible (“Take me to your leader”) and economical with the truth.They are well within their rights to demand strong evidence to back up the strong claims she is making. So far she refuses to do so.
Drop teh Fel spaceship into the sun?
Now, what is your working plan if you discover that the Sun is being eaten by the spaceship, so sunlight becomes Fel rays, instead of the other way around?
We know more information than the characters do. We have seen firsthand that Cora and Dabbler are trustworthy. These guys have not. On the contrary, they just found out we’ve had aliens among us, then they were given a casual promise that Earth isn’t in danger, and then a fucking warship attacks. It would be insane to hand over that ship, from THEIR point of view, not from the reader’s omniscient point of view.
Actually we have seen that Cora is not reliable, at least in the current situation: every judgement, decision and comment she made since she reached earth as been proved wildly inaccurate at best, completely wrong at worst. She is just your off-the-shelf adventurer, not the best person to manage a hostile first contact (that she caused, by the way) with a society she clearly know nearly nothing about
We at least know her intentions are good, whether or not those good intentions translate to good outcomes is another story, but we know she wouldn’t be trying to take this ship if she didn’t think it was best for Earth.