Grrl Power #777 – Salvage rights
Page 777! It’s the number of the upstairs neighbor of the beast. And a few doors down. Depends on how the building is laid out really.
I’m not absolutely sure who these guys are. For the purposes of the story it doesn’t matter quite yet. Archon has a shit ton of publicity but they’re not a large government agency. They have a lot of sway within their field – basically they get jurisdiction over anything involving superpowers (unless there are weird extenuating circumstances). Aliens should fall under their purview, but for obvious reasons that wasn’t explicitly written into their charter.
That will probably be amended soon, but in the meantime, now that aliens are public knowledge, there are other agencies salivating at the idea of getting their hands on an alien ship with energy weapons, force fields, crazy power sources, you know, the woiks. For instance, every other branch of the military, DARPA, NASA, OSI, Section 31, BPRD, IMF, Fulcrum. You guys get the idea. So these guys could be with just about anyone.
General Faulk! I haven’t draw him in a loooong time. I kept saying he was doing General stuff in Washington, but really I forgot to include him doing stuff around the base.
Speaking of characters we haven’t seen in a while, the guy standing next to Maxima is Irradon, who is the Twilight Council’s alien representative. His being there isn’t a public acknowledgement of the whole supernatural element present on Earth, but he’s stepped in as a sort of interim galactic ambassador.
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What’s the risk if Maxima dunps the salvage on the moon?
Then they could use robots and (shielded)Sydney to do any examination of the technology on-site, and maybe work out a super/magic method of making he stuff safe. Or just wait for it to devay enough that it’s safe.
Great autocorrect failure Batman.
I meant dumps and decay
Maxima can’t breath in space.
Spacesuit.
Spacesuits have rather limited life support duration, and as has been previously noted in the comic, space is really big, m’kay?
Maxima in a spacesuit. Maxima is very fast and can bring the ship into outer space relatively quickly, while wearing the suit.
The moon is 238,900 miles from the Earth. Apollo 11 was moving at 2040 miles per hour once the were out of Earth’s orbit (10 percent the speed it took to BREAK out of Earth’s orbit). Maxima can fly faster than 2040 miles per hour. She can fly at least at Mach 5, which is 3836 miles per hour, which is faster than Apollo 11 in space. Apollo 11 took 3 days to get to the moon. It will take Maxima 62 hours to tow The Fel ship to the moon from Earth (or less if she’s a lot faster than Mach 5).
They also have a super who works for someone (Deus) who owes Archon a major favor (because of her release to his custody)…. who can make portals.
My point is there are quite a few ways to get the Fel ship to space, and possibly to the moon.
Or if Cora is really so worried, have her provide a tractor beam of the Fel ship to the moon, and have Maxima on board to make sure she doesn’t try anything since the suits don’t trust Cora.
Um….yeah, 62 hours is a hell of a lot longer than any spacesuit we have can provide life support. And that’s not even accounting for the other hazards of space. Max can no doubt tank micrometeorites, but it’s doubtful her space suit could. And if her suit gets damaged she’s days away from help in an environment that’ll kill her in 30 seconds.
We don’t know portal girl’s range, but the moon is very likely outside of it.
There’s no way that ship is within the lifiting limit of the hentorb (I don’t care if Max nixed that name for it, it’s the hentorb), so Sydney has no way of getting it to the moon.
Max in a space suit could get the ship out to orbit, assuming she’s strong enough to lift it – the hundreds of thousands or millions of tons it weighs could well be beyond even her strength – but Cora’s ship is the only realistic way currently available to the US government to get the ship out past that.
The nice thing about space is that there’s no friction. Assuming that Maxima could carry the Fel ship into orbit and put it into a transfer orbit to the Moon within the capacity of a reasonable space suit, she could then head back to Earth, then Sydney could transport both of them in space suits with a big pile of consumables to the Moon, (She’s faster than Maxima now.) where Maxima could then deorbit the Fel ship, then they’d head back.
Assuming that that prolonged exposure to Fel corruption wouldn’t result in Dark Maxima. Maybe you want to just do the towing thing?
Sydney does have the lighthook. And at her speed it would only take 18 hours once it’s in space. :) Too bad they don’t know about Xoctli’s ability to get her to use a third orb, although Maxima could always stay in the orb with Sydney and fly if Sydney’s fly orb is not activated, right? We’ve already seen that the orb is not always immobile if it’s in the AIR while she’s not using the fly orb from her fight with the squidwards.
And Sydney has a mass limit of around 8 tons.
In space, there is no mass (well, weight of mass is irrelevant until it comes close to a gravitational field…)
All they need do is get it out of the gravitational pull of Dirt, and then have Sydney or Maxi pull it top speed
Foomf: Sydney’s limit with her lighthook is around 16 tons, according to Maxima. Still far short of what that Fel cruiser is likely to mass out at, even if they were the galactic champs at low-weight construction (which doesn’t seem remotely likely anyway).
Guesticus: Objects in space have mass and, thereby, inertia. They don’t have “weight,” because weight is the expression of the momentum of a given mass essentially sliding down the curve of curved spacetime toward the center of the mass that’s curving the spacetime. Lifting a weight is overcoming the ‘downhill’ momentum of the mass imparted by gravity. An object on a flat surface doesn’t slide downhill. A mass in relatively flat space (not near a gravity well like, for instance, Earth) does not have “weight.” But moving it still requires overcoming its inertia. Reference: shuttle astronauts talking about the fact that it’s both hard to move something massive in space, and hard to stop it when you want it to stop, since once you get it moving (relative to you and the shuttle), you have to overcome its momentum and inertia to get it to stop moving. An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force (gravity, air resistance, astronaut (who doesn’t have access to much of the first option or any of the second option during a space walk)). We conflate weight with mass because our common frame of reference is near the bottom of a gravity well, so the idea that weight is a localized side-effect of mass in certain parts of space, but mass is a constant, seems counter-intuitive.
That said, it might be possible that Maxima could impart enough momentum to a mass the size of the Fel cruiser to overcome Earth’s escape velocity (which would make her flying thrust level way more impressive than a Saturn V rocket (designed to lift up to 90,000 pounds to the moon) — for comparison, the tank she chucked downrange probably weighed about 13,000 pounds, and a Nimitz class carrier displaces about 100,000 tons of water, or 200,000,000 pounds.)
If Max can manage that (which seems unlikely, but to be fair, we’ve only seen her push her limit against Vehemence, whose constantly increasing power level makes it hard to measure her limits against him), then all Sydney would have to do is use the lighthook to slow the cruiser down before it hits the Moon (and impart any needed course corrections). She couldn’t do it quickly, but she could do it eventually. The limits would be how much thrust her fly orb can generate and how much momentum her lighthook can resist. The shield could withstand more force, though, so it might work better if she got out ahead of the cruiser and flew against its direction of travel using her shield like the prow of a tugboat guiding a cargo ship into a dock.
16 tons, not 8 tons. Also… space means less significantly less of a gravitational pull, and if Maxima gives it a push, Newton’s first law of motion will make it MUCH easier to direct it towards the moon.
And yes, I doubt portal girl can do ONE portal from the Earth to moon, but how about many portals?
Think of it like…. have you ever watched Stargate Atlantis and how they made a portal from the Pegasus Galaxy to Earth? Sort of like that, but on a smaller scale :)
Also the lighthook’s weight limit sort of requires…. gravity…. to have weight. Once you get something moving in space, it keeps moving. An object in motion tends to stay in motion.
No credit for partial answers, maggot!
Just because you’re in space doesn’t mean there is no gravity. In fact Earth’s gravity extends well beyond the moon. But yes, compared to getting an object into space, keeping it going on its way to the moon is relatively low effort…
Yes, and Maxima can push the ship out past where the Earth has a significant pull on the ship, without worrying about her air running out. A spacesuit can hold 8.5 hours of air. 4 hours of pushing, four hours back. She can probably push the ship out far enough that it can be directed at the moon :) The farther something is from the earth, and the smaller the mass of that object is, the less pull the Earth’s gravity will have on that object. That’s why the Apollo 11 only needed to be travelling at 10% of what it needed in order to break out of Earth’s orbit in the first place.
Well, Deus claimed that Opal couldn’t make a portal that reached from Galytn to the coast of Africa in one go, and that he used discretely owned warehouses to allow the required (and unspecified) number of hops. But Deus lies. A lot. Deus also now owns (for certain values of “owns”, since he stole the key component) a device that uses several dedicated solar towers and the Brane Ripper to open portals with interstellar range.
Even assuming Archon knew about Deus’ totally-not-a-Stargate, though, giving him access to the Fel cruiser at all, ever, even a little, would be a Bad Idea(tm). Also, opening a portal anywhere near anything dangerous enough to be a proper garbage disposal for a Fel cruiser might also be a Bad Idea(tm), since they’re evidently two-way to at least to the extent that people, cargo, and explosions can go through.
First, you’re making the assumption that Maxima’s flight ability would work out of atmosphere. It’s likely a safe assumption given, you know, super powers, but its still an assumption. Likewise, space suits are not designed with wind sheer in mind so getting an air tight suit into orbit, while carrying a ship (which there’s no proof maxima can actually lift) will like result in a no longer air tight suit.
Second, in regards to portals, you do remember how they imprisoned her right? High pressure area so any portals to a low pressure area = explosive decompression. A portal from earth to the moon is pretty much the classic example of high pressure to low pressure. Remember the end of portal 2? Yeah, you just lost your portal maker and anyone else that may have been standing around, plus a fair chunk of earth’s atmo that got sucked through the entire time the portal was open.
Cora can tractor beam, but based on this, even if they did hire her to tow it to the moon, I have a feeling she’d just make a detour straight for the son and be done with it.
Actually, the pressure differential between Earth and space is only one atmosphere. Deep sea pressures are the dangerous ones because they can easily crush you.
I do understand Simon’s inference though. I’ve played Portal 2 :) But I was meaning opening the portal while already IN space, so it’s zero atmospheres to zero atmospheres :)
If Maxima first puts it in orbit, then it’s zero atmospheres to zero atmospheres. And no explosive decompression. Which was what I was saying in the first place.
There’s no evidence in the comic to point to Maxima’s flight ability being atmosphere-dependent. She doesn’t leave a residue trail, so she’s presumably not using combustion-based flight (and even then, rockets use combustion and work in space — they just bring all the required components for combustion along in the fuel). Her hair doesn’t flow up or in the direction of flight, so presumably she’s not flying by manipulating wind currents (“Zephyr winds that blow on high, lift me up that I may fly!” — Mighty Isis, 1970s).
If her flight is thrust-related and draws on the same energy source as tank-imploding ‘splody orb and her cruiser-killer beam, then it probably doesn’t require external reaction mass. If it’s based on the same kind of repelling/protecting field that protects her body and clothes, then it’s probably some variation of touch-range telekinesis, and she’s essentially flying by willing the field to move, which moves her body and clothes with it, since it permeates her. Still doesn’t need air.
She needs to breathe (as far as she knows), and that seems to be the extent of atmosphere dependence. She was fine with just an air mask at an altitude where Sydney was worried she might die if she let go of her shield orb.
High Earth orbit might work.
Modified scuba gear.
Breathing aside, hard vacuum is hard on stuff. Especially anything organic, which could include major parts of the ships systems for all we know. Analyzing the bodies of the crew (who may be a different caste / species) could reveal some valuable science as well.
Plus, it’d be really hard for Archon to defend a moon base at this stage – Cora (or any other interested party of a spacefaring race) could just drop in and yoink it.
True. But someone mentioned the moon, so I started coming up with ways for Archon to get something to the moon with their given abilities :)
The big threat would be other factions. One, there would be no way to defend the salvage from aliens disposing of it. Two, keeping other nations who might decide to take chunks back to Earth would also be an issue. The big argument for letting her throw it into the sun is the other nations aren’t going to let the U.S. keep that technology. It could trigger a war.
1) America doesn’t own the moon. So putting it up there means anyone can claim it.
2) The people working on it would still get contaminated. (Not radiation but Psycho-Ray dinglehopper stuff that messes with people’s minds)
3) The Allied Space force would still want to slag it for safety. So they might just slag the moon. That’s Bad. Like Life on Planet Ending bad.
Any questions?
1) This is the first truly good response that I’ve heard that I cannot come up with a comeback to :) Congrats! GOOD ARGUMENT!
2) They have no proof that psycho radiation exists yet, and even if it does, they have no proof of how long it takes to infect someone. It’s probably more than 4 hours, since the ship has been on Earth overnight already.
3) Seems that destroying a species that has already distanced the ‘Fel Tech’ from them, when that species is able to destroy a Fel Battlecruiser with a handful of soldiers, and apparently has access to interstellar tech ALREADY to let a few of them appear on Fracture Station… is probably a bad idea.
“I could be looking at a Wimamp Vizualizer for all I know.”
“Our society does not operate withotu some level of trust…” – Arianna, Comic 146
Cora is only here because she was doing Dabbler a Favor – picking up Sydney.
The Fel only came because Cora was here – and the artifact on board of her ship.
And she is offering to freely dispose of it in the Sun – wich is another Favor.
The track record speaks for Cora.
The suit is just worried that America, or humanity for that matter, will lose a chance for rapid technological advancement into interstellar exploration and colonization, which humans are desperately in need of if we intend on surviving for much longer as we’re rapidly approaching one, if not more of the great filters.
He likely believes Cora, but doesn’t care and considers it an acceptable risk, thinking that what ever the danger is can dealt with. That’s why he mentioned Maxima’s presence.
He’s probably also a lawyer, as a non-lawyer would not be such a fierce advocate of the position.
Yep. That’s how a lawyer is supposed to negotiate with an opponent that’s taking a hard line when they have NO legal right. Start big. :)
Yes, nice of you to admit Suit-Boy has no legal legs to stand on
No, I am referring to Cora. Cora is the opponent that’s taking a hard line when she has no legal right.
America* He sure as hell isn’t representing humanity.
*The suit is only worried about whatever podunk agency he works for.
A plague ship is not in America’s best interests.
Her ship having brought it to Earth would, I think, count against her.
The key words in Arianna’s statement is ‘our society.’ That does not mean alien societies with whom we have been on massively unequal footing. And for that matter, the suit has a point in why to not trust the aliens for another reason – we have already been attacked at least once by aliens and relying entirely on supers to protect us is foolhardy. Think of Stargate SG-1. The point of them going out there is not just to get allies, but to get technology in order to defend Earth on their own without HAVING to be beholden to allies or having a single point of critical failure (ie, relying entirely on supers, which constitute an exceedingly small minority of humanity).
What Cora or Irradon should do, instead, is make an exception to the ‘do not give a caveman a laser gun’ rule – by giving them technology which does NOT have evil psychic energies that can corrupt the user. Becaus right now, the Earth DOES have access to advanced technology – but it’s Fel tech. The aliens can simply make a trade – we give you save tech, you give us the dangerous tech so we can destroy it. If Cora goes hardline all-or-nothing on this, you back the Earth into a corner where the suits HAVE to double down and choose ‘all.’
Yep. and the first step to that, from a human perspective, is an unambiguous salvage right.
If you don’t fight us throwing away that bag of glass we’ll give this red ball approach is logical, reasonable, and any rational society would accept it. Which is why I doubt any human government would take the deal. History has shown a tendency towards stubborn to the point of self destruction on the part of governments for some reason.
But for the sake of story telling the former might be better long term.
The key to dealing with people is to make them think the deal they’re accepting is one they wanted in the first place. That’s what diplomacy is for :) If you’re good enough at it, the people you’re dealing with will never know that what they just bargained for is exactly what you wanted them to choose in the first place. It’s actually why a key to negotiating (whether it’s a plea deal, a settlement, or a business deal) is the big ask, then you settle for something a lot less, which is usually what you wanted in the first place. Which is not really Cora’s strong suit, admittedly. But maybe it is Irradon’s, since … well… that’s his job. Being a liaison and voice between different groups.
Stargate time! :)
Gaining massively advanced tech through a safe, controlled means worked out well in Stargate SG-1. A lot better than when humans would just TAKE tech they find. The Asgard were testing us for a while to make sure we’d be worthy of the sum total of their technology, by first giving us occasional glimpses of how theirs worked, as SG-1 kept helping them along the way. Same for the To’Kra.
Meanwhile, the Tolan didn’t share their tech at all (mainly because the last species they gave tech to used it to create weapons and destroyed themselves), were VERY haughty about it, and were caught offguard when the Go’a’uld attacked with a way past their single point of defense. Leading to their extinction.
“Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have your way.”
Exactly :)
Well, the empty suits here are the anti-diplomats. They are unconvincing, and their word selection makes them sound insincere. You don’t deal with bench level schmucks like these two, you wait for the competent authority at higher level to come deal with you.
They’re unconvincing to you because you’re looking at it from an audience-member’s perspective, not from someone in-universe.
But yes, they are not being diplomatic. But they are VERY convincing of their stance.
No, I am looking at it from both a military perspective and a risk versus rewards perspective.
1. You dismissed (outright, and to an absolute degree) the magnitude of going into combat just to rescue someone else’s personnel serves as an indicator of good faith. It isn’t that you merely underestimate it’s value; by not even listing it here you telegraph that you do not understand that it has any value whatsoever. That eliminates you as someone who can understand anything at all about my perspective.
2. You and I differ in every way as to how we think potential plague vectors from outer space should be handled. I believe that they should be immediately contained in Isolation far from human habitation and studied only after Isolation is achieved. You and these suited guys do not exhibit that caution even when told outright that this debris represents an existential threat. Even if they want something from the wreckage, these two idiots should still be wanting the ship wreckage towed off planet and away from earth a bit.
3. Neither of those two things require audience perspective, they are things that both sides of this conversation would be privy to.
Fake assignation of motivation fail.
“No, I am looking at it from both a military perspective and a risk versus rewards perspective.”
No, you’re not looking at it from a risk vs reward perspective at all. You have an undefined and unproven risk vs a definite reward. You’re using audience meta-information which the characters simply do not have to assume the veracity that undetectable psycho stygian radiation exists.
“You dismissed (outright, and to an absolute degree) the magnitude of going into combat just to rescue someone else’s personnel serves as an indicator of good faith.”
Good faith on one issue does not mean you give up a huge thing in a completely separate event. That’s actually TERRIBLE negotiating, and horrible military strategic thinking.
“That eliminates you as someone who can understand anything at all about my perspective.”
Your perspective is utterly two dimensional and based on a lot of blind trust though. So no, I do not understand the idea of making important decisions based on blind trust and unverified data from sources who do not trust ME either.
“You and I differ in every way as to how we think potential plague vectors from outer space should be handled.”
Based on your following sentence, no I disagree with you there. We differ in the idea that the suits are in the wrong based on the in-universe data presently available to them. You think they should trust Cora just because she did Dabbler a favor by getting Sydney. I do not think that is sufficient cause for them to completely accept everything Cora and Dabbler are saying, when they refuse to show how the science they are using to make their point work in the first place.
“I believe that they should be immediately contained in Isolation far from human habitation and studied only after Isolation is achieved.”
I agree with that, actually. But CORA wants to chuck it in the sun, not put it in isolation.
“You and these suited guys do not exhibit that caution even when told outright that this debris represents an existential threat.”
You have no idea how much caution the suits would be using. Their first priority right now is to not let Cora STEAL the fel ship and chuck it into the sun, though.
“Even if they want something from the wreckage, these two idiots should still be wanting the ship wreckage towed off planet and away from earth a bit.”
Did you miss the thread where I was giving ideas on how the ship COULD be removed from the planet while they decide how to safely examine the Fel tech? Either you missed it, or you ignored it.
“Neither of those two things require audience perspective, they are things that both sides of this conversation would be privy to.”
Incorrect. The first thing you mentioned requires them to trust Dabbler’s scanner without knowing how it works, and the second requires them to trust that Cora will not immediately chuck the Fel ship into the sun or abscond with it once it’s no longer on the planet, given she’s outright stated wanting to do that. :)
“Fake assignation of motivation fail.”
Your pseudo-pithy comment is denied.
I mean, he’s not wrong.
And most of the work in salvaging would be along the lines of…
I don’t know how this works… but we used an electron microscope and found it’s built in a 3D matrix of nano-scale logic chips. It’ll take us a decade to scan and computer model this.
What the whole ship?
No, this single part.
That’s really my whole argument too. Everything the suit is saying makes sense from the perspective of someone who is not an out-of-universe audience member. It’s very much the ‘Strawman has a Point’ trope, where the ‘a-hole’ is the one who’s making logical sense, based on all information they’d have CREDIBLE access to.
Which is zero information
Cereally doubt Suit-Boy would have been high enough up the food chain to have actual knowledge of aliens existing at all let alone already part of the military and government
Why are you doubtful that they are high up enough on the food chain? If they represent the President, or are in the President’s cabinet, then they will have high security clearance. The fact that they’re IN there, arguing, and were let in by Archon implies on its own that they must have high clearance already.
then we would have a destiny 2 hive battle going on or something like ad astra or some war on the moon
Why would anyone have a war on the moon? Moon’s haunted.
It’s an excellent launch platform for Rods from God.
bull. The best place for a rod from god is a polar orbit, just above the atmosphere. Strike anywhere on earth in 6 hours, on average. The moon has a gravity well, and significant orbital velocity to overcome to drop a rod way too far down. They’ll see it coming for DAYS.
Not really. Even 1/6G is a gravity well that you would need to lift the RFG from. Best placement for an RFG launch platform is in polar orbit. Sooner or later, every bit of the target planet comes into your sights.
I didn’t dig through all the comments, and I’m honestly just trying to be helpful, not That Guy, but: Max has gold insignia on her epaulets, and unless she’s gotten demoted recently (“or unless ARC has its own insignia”, he said, trying hard to earn his Marvel No-Prize), not so much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOe5ig4l9tI
Why is gold insignia lower rank than silver? o_O
Because it’s not gold, it’s brass.
Because the DOD says so.
Yeah, was going to add that, was honestly hoping for an actual answer
Billy Yank gave you the actual honest answer, you just didn’t recognize the truth of it.
Have you never heard military high command referred to as “the top brass”?
A lot of uniform accoutrements from rank insignia to belt buckles used to be made of actual brass. And it all had to be kept polished. When I was a young enlisted man I bought a Dremel craft drill with a bunch of felt discs and points to polish all the damned stuff. After fourty years it still works great.
Because it’s not based on the value of the metal :) And like Wellington said… because the DOD says so.
Sort of like why redshirts are the lowest rank in Star Trek (except for Scotty for some reason, who’s a chief engineer but wears a red shirt and never died in the show), but in Star Trek TNG, redshirts are the highest rank (Captains and Admirals and Commanders – although for some reason ALSO the lowest rank of Ensigns), while the other lowest rank is yellow shirts (which used to be the highest rank in Star Trek TOS) – while at the same time ALSO being the high ranks of Chief Engineer and Second in Command. It’s like Starfleet wants to make it extra-confusing.
Because Star Fleet says so. :)
(and for some reason blue shirts are ALWAYS medical far as I’ve seen).
Actually, it rather is based upon the value of the metal.
Brass has always been relatively cheap.
That’s a fair enough reasoning. Although I always figured that the higher ranked people would have a little prestige about having more expensive metal pinned to them, so I figured the only reason it wasn’t that way was because of a decision simply by executive fiat. IE, It’s that way because we say it’s that way.
Good spotting. She has the insignia of a second louie rather than a LT-Col. She should have a silver oakleaf on each epaulet. Faulk is wrong too, if he is a Major General he should have two silver stars on each epaulet.
Maxima’s insignia looks like a Major’s gold oak leaf rather than a LTC’s silver gold leaf. Faulk’s stars don’t match any rank as there are no gold stars in any US officer insignia.
Correct insignia for all US ranks can be found at https://www.defense.gov/Our-Story/Insignias/
Correction: LTC’s silver gold leaf = LTC’s silver oak leaf
From this angle, those could be oak leaves. But yeah on the general–this isn’t grade school.
Minor design issue Dave: Max is a LTC, her rank insignia looks gold (Major.) Also, since she is in her Dress uniform, she should be wearing her ribbons. Everyone in the military has at least a couple. A field grade officer who has done tours in the sandbox should have several. (Don’t you hate nitpickers?) :)
Oh yeah! She looks like a bus driver. :D Seriously, there is a ribbon for graduating BASIC, for crying out loud. There is also a longevity medal & a good conduct metal. Then (as you implied), there are combat metals. And unit meritorious service badges. Basically it would take a LOT of effort for an LTC not to be close to two full rows.
Looks like I’m going to be the widely dissenting voice here, but SuitGuy isn’t being an asshole. That ship could hold the key to uplifting the entire world, to solving things like hunger, poverty, disease, material shortages. And all that he has is the word of an advanced people that “it’s far too dangerous for the likes of you”, and the proof is showing a piece of tech that they won’t let us properly understand. High tech societies take advantage of low-tech societies. We already have a free admission that aliens have straight-up kidnapped people and forced them to serve on their ships. There’s no degree of trust being shared on the other side, so there’s no reason to suspect this is anything other than an attempt to keep valuable tech out of primitive hands.
SuitGuy is absolutely doing the right thing. He may be wrong, but there’s no possible way he could know that.
Yes there is a way for him to know that. It’s called actually taking into account seriously the info given to him by the only people knowledgeable about this stuff. If he deliberately chooses to ignore their knowledge he does not get to play the ignorance card. Kinda like when a parent tells their kid not to put their hand on the hot stove because they’ll get burned. If the kid does it despite being warned of the consequences they can’t say they didn’t know.
It looks like SuitGuy is taking it as one of those parental warnings that are meant to control unwanted behaviors. “Stop doing that or you’ll go blind!”
People who also have not actually shown any evidence of said info being trustworthy, and who have several conceivable reasons to deceive them.
People who are also part of, or associated with ARC-SWAT, whom have done more to protect America’s sorry asses than he ever will.
He’s an asshole.
Being an associate doesn’t automatically make you trustworthy, especially when you’re an associate of someone who hasn’t been entirely forthcoming with information. It’s also not his fault that he wasn’t born a Super, so that shouldn’t be a knock against him. The world has uses for non supers/non fighters and it’s quite possible he’s done a lot at his station to help out. Not an asshole.
To qualify for this super elite force, yes it pretty much means you are as trustworthy as they can find.
Do we really need to repeat all the discussions about security clearances?
Go over the clearances Arc Swat would need to qualify for in addition to their powers?
As in ‘Harem is a double agent’ trustworthy? Or Dabbler ‘we keep you under surveillance’ trustworthy?
Harem is a triple agent, Archon sent her over to Deus, and even Deus knows her loyalty is to Archon.
The KGB was an elite force. Being good at your job doesn’t mean you’re necessarily a good person.
*The info given to him by the only people CLAIMING to be knowledgeable. They have refused to provide any kind of actual evidence for their claims. Moreover, they have several conceivable reasons to want to deceive them.
And at least one of the people claiming to be knowledgeable is the one who will directly profit from their solution to the problem only they can detect. That’s the basis for a huge chunk of the many scams that we humans have pulled on each other.
Nobody at all profits from the proposes proposed solution.
Who profits from properly disposing of the fell wreckage? At best it’d be a wash at worst Cora and her crew risk exposure and use up resources flying it around.
Evidence has been provided. A government contractor (Dabbler) has showed them her tech’s readings. This isn’t a wild claim with zero evidence behind it. This guy is arguing that the evidence shown is FAKE.
Government Guy’s argument only makes sense if we posit all of the following:
1.) Dabbler is a liar. (And should be taken out of ARCHON b/c she is untrustworthy.)
2.) Cora is a liar. (Most fair of all the points)
3.) The magical-radiation does not exist. (He has {untrusted} proof it does.)
4.) Space-gov won’t glass the country because Hive-tech is there. (Wrong=Dead)
If ANY of the presumptions he is making are wrong, then he is doing Earth a disservice by trying to keep the Hive ship.
The situation is no different than a Victorian Age Lord arguing about why they should keep that leaking nuclear power plant somebody dropped on their city. Just because their tools can’t detect radiation is doesn’t mean it isn’t there. The comparison here is that the noble is arguing they made radiation up to steal the reactor.
tl;dr
His entire argument rests on everyone else being a lying-liar-who-lies.
Our argument assumes that “keeping the Fel ship” is the objective.
Now, think it through from the POV of “the Fel ship is a bargaining chip to get something Cora and Dabbler don’t want to give us.”.
That’s actually an excellent point, and possibly an effective strategy. Even if Cora could just tractor beam the remains and dust off uncontested, doing so would burn her bridges with Archon (including its male retinue) and possibly strain her relationship with Dabbler. Even if she offers only a ‘minor’ concession that’s trivial to her (like Sydney’s holo-projection trinket) just to shut them up, it’s likely to be something worth getting and better than just letting a Macguffin slip away uncontested.
I’d ask for more confirmation. They have instant translation tech, right? The Fel’s corruption is well known? Call up the space-wiki article, a PSA or two, a movie about an invasion, and whatever else you have. There should be enough materials that faking in on short notice would not be feasible and plenty of materials would lack technical information humans shouldn’t have. Also, if there is a trivial way to neutralize the corruption, purging all reference would be difficult.
This should be fairly convincing and show what happens if they don’t dispose of the wreckage.
The transformation may not to be instantaneous, but I can’t imagine letting that weird radiation seep into the environment for hours is going to end well.
No Dominic, I actually agree with you. He’s being reasonable, in fact (except for the taking Cora’s ship part, that’s more of a threat if Cora wants to play hardball and take what, even based on Cora’s agreement, is LEGALLY Earth property now).
The fact that Dabbler won’t even give the method of how her technology to READ FEL RADIATION works, so that the humans can check for themselves, is making aliens inherently untrustworthy, because of one simple thing – trust has to come from BOTH sides, not entirely from one side. If it’s all Earth having to trust the aliens, then trust is worthless, especially since the aliens clearly do not trust the HUMANS with high tech stuff.
Kinda does look like max got promoted to a 1 Star general.
That’s what happens when you get all the credit for defeating an alien invasion.
Haha, Cora doesn’t realize how much free intel she’s giving out to the “clueless human.” Plus – what he really wants is access to Cora’s ship. Great ruse, government guy.
Oi! Suit boi! You might want to be paying attention to the little blond geek. The second biggest “Gun” in your arsenal (with the potential to match if not exceed your BIGGEST, and already has in a couple ways) just told you to pound sand.
And at the end of the day, Max would probably side with Sydney. Add to that she’s seen enough shit to know she can trust Dabbler and Cora on this kind of thing.
Hence my favorite quote from Captain Rex in Star Wars The Clone Wars: “In my book, experience outranks everything.”
At the end of the day, Maxima took an oath to follow the laws of the United States, and NOTHING the suit is saying would be an illegal order. If Maxima was to take it upon herself to decide what is and is not the law, then she is no longer a soldier – she would be a tyrant. It’s why Superman doesn’t just kill Lex Luthor or tell the President to go screw himself – he’s respectful of the fact that humans need to be able to rule THEMSELVES (unlike how Zod or Faora see humans, as needing someone to rule them).
Or think of it like how Loki sees the humans. Do you really think Maxima would take the same stance as someone like Loki?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcgJvJqCdrw
“Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life’s joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.”
And if Maxima was to think that ‘there are no others like me’ in that respect…. I’d quote what the old man who refused to kneel said – ‘there’s always someone like you.’
Because remember what wound up happening to Loki. Captain America kicks Loki’s ass. Followed by Iron Man kicking Loki’s ass. Hawkeye and Black Widow kicking threatening to blow up Liki’s ass.
What do those heroes have in common? They’re the humans in the Avengers with no special powers (aside from whatever non-accidental tech humans were able to come up with on their own), and they beat a god.
Fortunately, I don’t think Maxima will decide to take the LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES into her own hand as if she controlled the nation. She’s a soldier, who will follow legal orders, and like it or not, the laws of salvage are pretty explicitly legal orders, and preventing an implied threat of orbital bombardment (and saying you can’t have access to technology to prevent such an event from happening, while taking away the tech which you do have legal access to) is also a legal order, to anyone who thinks this would have anything to do with the Nuremburg trials or Geneva Convention (hint, it doesn’t).
Maxima also has the right to refuse unethical orders.(Assuming this guy even has the authority to give her any.)
And could even choose to do nothing if she knows following an order could negatively affect the nation as a whole.
“Because remember what wound up happening to Loki. Captain America kicks Loki’s ass. Followed by Iron Man kicking Loki’s ass. Hawkeye and Black Widow kicking threatening to blow up Liki’s ass.
What do those heroes have in common? They’re the humans in the Avengers with no special powers (aside from whatever non-accidental tech humans were able to come up with on their own), and they beat a god.”
Yeah, because movie Loki is weaker than Maxima.(And weaker than his comic version.)
Someone like Captain America or Hawkeye would get eviscerated at Mach 2 if they tried to fight Maxima. They lack the fire power to hurt her and the durability to survive any serious blow.
Pray tell, Blonk, what is unethical about a legal salvage operation? This isnt a ‘Maxima can do whatever she wants if she feels like it’ rule. She is not a general. She is not the President.
“Yeah, because movie Loki is weaker than Maxima.(And weaker than his comic version.)”
Yes, hubris never is the downfall of anyone super-powerful. Sure :).
Also Captain America did pretty well against Thanos, who beat up the Hulk.
My point though, which you seem to have glossed over, is that Maxima is not the be-all, end-all of human existence and does not make the rules. She takes orders. If she doesnt know how to take legal orders from a superior, including from the civilian authority over the military, the President, then she shouldnt wear a uniform.
Also Tony took on the Hulk. And in the movie he won that fight by gassing the Hulk. And Maxima still needs to breathe air.
I’m wondering why you think Maxima would be so gung-ho to DEFY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT though in the first place. She seems to be overly loyal to the US government normally.
It’s unethical to subject people to deadly (or worse) radiation(?) when they don’t have to be.
It’s right up there with the officers who ordered troops to be intentionally exposed to nuclear weapons just to find out what would happen.
Yes but you can not argue that with a lawyer, because no bar in the United States would ever certify a lawyer who would argue that was the case until after the action resulted in mass wrongful deaths.
You fail to comprehend what lawyers are and just why it is said on all continents that 99 percent of them give the other 1 percent a bad name.
Actually I am a lawyer, and I’m bar certified in 3 states (and was admitted to federal court through a sponsor a few years ago).
I can most definitely argue that with a lawyer. The bar does not certify based on the types of cases a lawyer takes. In fact, the bar sometimes tells attorneys they MUST take unpopular cases, depending on that state’s continuing bar requirements for practicing attorneys. All the bar does is give attorney’s the license to practice law and make sure they do not do anything that violates the rules of professional conduct. Taking a case which might result in wrongful death? That doesn’t violate the rules of professional conduct. Timothy McVey did have an attorney, after all. So do cigarette companies. So do pharmaceutical companies and car companies.
“You fail to comprehend what lawyers are”
No, I think you fail to understand what lawyers are. We are zealous advocates for our clients, first and foremost, whether that client is a private individual or the US government or a US government agency.
“99 percent of them give the other 1 percent a bad name.”
Until you’re in trouble or someone wants to take what’s rightfully yours and you need a lawyer to defend you or to prosecute the person who has wronged you.
“It’s unethical to subject people to deadly (or worse) radiation(?) when they don’t have to be.”
It’s unethical to claim deadly psychic radiation when you refuse to prove it in a way that can be verified.
Also officers also already had ACTUAL EVIDENCE that nuclear radiation actually exists in the first place. That’s what made what happened in Operation Hardtack 1 unethical. They knew that it was dangerous, they knew that nuclear radiation EXISTED, and they did it anyway. They have no proof of stygian radiation, except for Cora’s say-so. And Cora and Dabbler’s refusal to show how the scanner works that supposedly detects it.
If I run up to you, point a ghostbusters tricorder thing in your face and yell at you that your house is haunted and the only safe thing is to BLOW IT UP, would you be fine with me attaching some C4 to your house and blowing it up, which will totally cause the ghosts to return to their nether realms before they can start possessing people? After all, I just told you there’s deadly…. ectoplasmic radiation. And showed you a flashing blinking thing. I could come to your house wearing a lab coat if you want extra reason, since you’re so incredibly trusting of people who you have no reason to trust :).
They didn’t “refuse to prove it”. Earth is incapable of independently verifying it that’s not Cora’s fault. Either they trust Dabbler or they don’t and if they don’t’ then she should be immediately kicked out of Archon, rescinded, and/or arrest her for espionage.
In your example if you did it in this world no. But if a trusted government employee with a public face in a world where I knew ghosts exist came up and said that I wouldn’t just assume they’re lying for the fun of it and ignore them.
They ‘don’t’ trust Dabbler, but TPTB decided that her being IN ARCHON where it is easier for ARC-LIGHT (as I don’t recall offhand whether ‘X’ was attached to LIGHT or DARK) to keep her under observation made the most sense.
When Sydney had left the room and the folks who’d been involved in the interview were talking amongst themselves about whether or not to accept her, X spoke of her value to ArcDark. That in itself might not be conclusive proof, but if X were only in the room because Dabbler had been summoned there, then why did X remain behind to partake in the discussion after Dabbler left? And Arc-Light already had Zephan present as a representative.
Their surveillance of Dabbler is more due diligence rather than distrust.
X is attached to Arc Dark, and according to Dabbler, X is her handler because “they do not trust me.”
Mike, Dabbler literally said it’s because “they do not trust me.”
So no, it’s because of due diligence AND distrust.
They showed the readouts, they showed the scanners working producing the readouts
They are not going to basically give them the knowledge to produce their own scanners, for one thing, it would take too fucking long to learn the advanced tech, build the equipment needed to build the scanners, build the scanners, test the scanners, and then, finally, use the scanners
By which time, Fel hive-mind planet
First of all, Generals and the President do *not* do whatever they want. There are legal constraints on all levels of power in the US.
Second of all, the ultimate loyalty for an American citizen is to the People of the United States, not to the government of the US.
Way to strawman my argument :/
Generals and the President can do things that are LEGAL for them to do, which is my point. And completely not what you said my point was. Salvage is legal. Impounding a vehicle which is getting in the way of the government doing something that are legally allowed to do (salvage) is legal.
Therefore, the President can order it, as an executive action. Generals can order their subordinates to follow the orders of the President as part of the basic military command structure.
Second of all, ultimate loyalty of the government itself is to the People of the United States. But again, what you and EVERY OTHER PERSON who argues against the suits is doing is ignoring the basic fact that Cora and Dabbler refuse to give even a way to verify that their data is accurate (or real in the first place). Because they don’t only refuse to share FTL tech, they refuse to share even the tech that is used to detect the radiation that they claim is dangerous to the humans.
Also, the duty of a SOLDIER is to follow all legal orders. Maxima is a soldier. By following LEGAL orders, you are protecting the People of the United States.
Important to note that “impounding” Cora’s ship is not the same as claiming to own it.
Correct. Everyone who’s saying they’d be ‘stealing’ Cora’s ship doesnt know what impound means. They can very well just impound it while they examine the fel tech and take it to a secure location because they do not trust that Cora won’t fly up and destroy the ship from orbit, or use a tractor beam to steal it, etc.
For that matter, Cora’s ship contains FEL TECHNOLOGY AS WELL. And yet her ship isnt corrupted.
Or is the ‘Fel Artifact of Unspeakable Cuddles’ not Fel Technology? Because if it’s not, it really needs a name change. :)
“Pray tell, Blonk, what is unethical about a legal salvage operation?”
It could lead to the end of the human race?
“Yes, hubris never is the downfall of anyone super-powerful.”
It’s not hubris, it is a fact. Based on feats, Maxima has more raw power than Loki.
“Also Captain America did pretty well against Thanos, who beat up the Hulk.”
Yeah, because it’s a movie and it wouldn’t look very good to show Captain America being turned into a red smear from one punch. It’s the same reason why any of the Flash’s fights with villains last more than a few nanoseconds:
Media makes things illogical for the sake of entertainment.
“My point though, which you seem to have glossed over, is that Maxima is not the be-all, end-all of human existence and does not make the rules.”
I agree.
“Also Tony took on the Hulk. And in the movie he won that fight by gassing the Hulk. And Maxima still needs to breathe air.”
Maxima isn’t the Hulk, and the way she would likely try kill someone like Ironman wouldn’t require getting close at all. And if she did, for whatever reason, she’d move to fast for him to land a hit.
“It could lead to the end of the human race?”
Prove it?
Oh what? You can’t prove it? Oh wait you’re going to prove it by using the say so of the people making the claim, but refuse to actually show how the technology works to give that scanning technology any credit? Yeah, no. That’s like just believing someone if they say ‘that guy killed that other guy’ even if there’s no proof, and instead of a trial, you just kill the accused guy. Because otherwise you’d have a murderer walking the streets.
The verification in my example is a trial. The verification here would be to let the humans see how the scanner works and the science behind the scanner.
“It’s not hubris, it is a fact. Based on feats, Maxima has more raw power than Loki.”
Oh, it’s still hubris, regardless of comparing her to Loki. That’s why Vehemence almost killed Maxima.
But if she was to back the US government into a corner? Don’t be surprised if the US government has a way to ‘watch the watchers.’
Actually, you know what the US government could do if Maxima went rogue? Make a deal with Vehemence to kill her in exchange for his freedom. Make a deal with the vampires to mesmerize her, then have Opal have her sent to outer space if you don’t want to make a deal with a psycho like Vehemence. Make a deal with the mages to create a dimensional prison from which Maxima cannot escape, surrounded by an airless vacuum.
You don’t like Loki as an example? Fine…. Homelander (superman expy) vs Billy Butcher (normal but well-trained human) then.
That’s really the whole backdrop of the show ‘The Boys’ you know….. unaccountable superhumans, like Homelander, and humans have to figure a way to stop them. Homelander is like Maxima in his powerset, they’re both superman expys. While the Boys are all humans (except the Female of the Species).
“Media makes things illogical for the sake of entertainment.”
I agree about this. So lets use the Boys as an example instead, since that’s a lot more grounded in real life ‘what if supers were real’ questions.
“Maxima isn’t the Hulk, and the way she would likely try kill someone like Ironman wouldn’t require getting close at all. And if she did, for whatever reason, she’d move to fast for him to land a hit.”
Assuming she knows he’s coming for her. “Maxima is not prepared for fear vomit.” Remember how Sydney’s plan worked against Vehemence based on the idea that you can only prepare for something if you’re expecting something.
It’s not at all analogous to a murder. Maxima has personal reasons to believe Cora, a colleague of Dabbler, is being truthful.
So if it comes to down to blindly following a technically legal order, which could lead to trillions of casualties, and doing nothing and getting into legal trouble…. Well, she did take an oath to protect the public.
“Oh, it’s still hubris, regardless of comparing her to Loki. That’s why Vehemence almost killed Maxima.”
No, Max being powerful is a fact. She is confirmed by nearly everyone to be one of the strongest Supers in existence.
Hubris would be calling her invincible or all-powerful.
“Actually, you know what the US government could do if Maxima went rogue? Make a deal with Vehemence to kill her in exchange for his freedom. Make a deal with the vampires to mesmerize her, then have Opal have her sent to outer space if you don’t want to make a deal with a psycho like Vehemence. Make a deal with the mages to create a dimensional prison from which Maxima cannot escape, surrounded by an airless vacuum.”
Those are all examples of Supers possibly being able to stop/kill another Super. Not of a human somehow beating Maxima.
“You don’t like Loki as an example? Fine…. Homelander (superman expy) vs Billy Butcher (normal but well-trained human) then.”
Butcher stands absolutely no chance in any physical encounter. Just like in the show.
Not really seeing your point here. Even in the comics, the only person to seriously hurt Homelander was another Super.
“I agree about this. So lets use the Boys as an example instead, since that’s a lot more grounded in real life ‘what if supers were real’ questions.”
That very show contradicts you. We see ‘Normal Humans’ try to physically combat Homelander; they get slaughtered and/or humiliated in short order.
“It’s not at all analogous to a murder. Maxima has personal reasons to believe Cora, a colleague of Dabbler, is being truthful.”
Why does Maxima have personal reasons to believe that Cora is being truthful? Because she’s a friend of Dabbler? Dabbler has a handler that is following her at all times because, even according to Dabbler herself, Archon DOES NOT TRUST HER. Remember X? I will forgive you if you don’t. X is intentionally forgettable a part of the job of Arc Dark :).
No. You do not just blindly trust. Especially if you’re a soldier where you’re suggesting defying a direct order from your superiors or from the President of the United States. Especially when there’s no logical reason to call it an illegal order (since for something to be an illegal order, it has to be actually… breaking a law). You trust but VERIFY. And right now, she can’t verify anything. So she defies that order, she gets a court martial. She wants to fight that? It means she wants to fight the United States Government. Which makes her a villain, not a hero. And a tyrant, not a soldier.
And from what we’ve seen of Maxima, she isn’t the type who will go against her own nation and the government (case in point, the Krona detaining arc).
“So if it comes to down to blindly following a technically legal order,”
There’s nothing ‘blindly’ about it. It all makes logical sense to follow a legal order, and you just admitted it’s a LEGAL order. She is a soldier. She does not have the LUXURY to choose when she should not follow a LEGAL order.
“which could lead to trillions of casualties,”
Very hyperbolic of you, and based on no facts available to them. Cora’s say-so is not enough, and especially not when she and Dabbler can settle it by just giving them the scanning technology so those scans can be credible to the humans.
Also how many people do you think live in the US, let alone on Earth? Just curious, since you think there are trillions of humans. Just so you know, if you start at 50,000BC and go to 2010, the amount of humans to have ever existed on the planet, in total, is about 105 billion. Using hyperbolic language to try to win an argument isnt exactly good or convincing – it would just be fear mongering in universe, and easily refutable.
“No, Max being powerful is a fact.”
Powerful is not unstoppable.
“She is confirmed by nearly everyone to be one of the strongest Supers in existence.”
Yes, one of the most powerful Supers in existence. Which means she’s not the most powerful super in existence. And it’s not exactly unheard of in human history, or in comic book history for that matter, for an inferior power to be able to take on a vastly superior power and win. Otherwise Galactus would have eaten the Earth about 6 times by now.
“and doing nothing and getting into legal trouble…. Well, she did take an oath to protect the public.”
This is the oath she took.
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Where does it say what you think it says?
“Those are all examples of Supers possibly being able to stop/kill another Super. Not of a human somehow beating Maxima.”
1) Vampires are not supers.
2) Mages are not supers.
3) Magical and mystical weapons, wielded by humans, are not supers
4) Humans making a deal with someone to stop Maxima would not make Maxima less imprisoned or dead in the end.
“Butcher stands absolutely no chance in any physical encounter. Just like in the show.”
You really need to read the comic book :)
Meh whatever, I’ll give spoilers. SPOILER ALERT
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In hte comic, Noir kills Homelander.
Then Butcher kills a weakened Noir.
So yes, Billy Butcher was able to kill supers. As a human. Including he was able to get the two most powerful supers killed by his own machinations. And one by his own hand.
Also in the TV show, Translucent seems to be dead. And it wasn’t a super that killed him. It was humans.
“Not really seeing your point here. Even in the comics, the only person to seriously hurt Homelander was another Super.”
I honestly don’t think you ever read the comics. Or at least not very far into the comics. If you did, you’d know that Homelander dies in the comics. Noir kills him. Then Butcher kills Noir.
Also, in season 2 of the TV show, Butcher will beat Homelander (according to insiders).
“That very show contradicts you. We see ‘Normal Humans’ try to physically combat Homelander; they get slaughtered and/or humiliated in short order.”
Yeah, Translucent is having a good old time in the suitcase Butcher packed him into. Very much alive, except for … yknow… not being alive, and being splattered into a million pieces. And I can’t wait until you see what happens in season 2, if what happens to Homelander is in any way similar to what Billy Butcher did to Noir in the comics. The people who Homelander kills in the show are generic mooks. Not the Boys. In fact the only one of ‘the Boys’ that dies at all, at least temporarily, is the Female of the Species, who is the only member who is a super.
“Why does Maxima have personal reasons to believe that Cora is being truthful? Because she’s a friend of Dabbler?”
More because she has routinely trusted Dabbler’s advice when it comes to matters of the mystical or alien. And since Dabbler isn’t contradicting Cora here, she could send a message to Max over comms, then it’s very likely for Max to assume the radiation/mutation factor is very real.
“Powerful is not unstoppable.”
Listen, dude, are you trolling?
I told you that I agreed, in my second reply to you, that Max wasn’t all powerful or the “end-all-be-all” of Supers. So you repeating it is nonsensical.
Why are you so high-strung about this idea of humans being able to beat Superman-expys anyways?
Iron Man isn’t normal, he can make nigh-magical technology.
Captain America isn’t a normal human, he took a serum to give him super human abilities.
Same with Butcher in the comics; he routinely takes a serum that gives him super-strength and durability.
Neither are vampires, mages, aliens, etc etc.
And why are you trying to cite fictional stories anyways? I can quote stories where humanity gets wiped out/are completely ruled by ultra-powerful beings, but they wouldn’t be anymore valid.
Because, just like you citing The Boys, the stories are fictional and have no real basis in reality.
“Yeah, Translucent is having a good old time in the suitcase Butcher packed him into.”
This is what makes me think you’re trolling. I wasn’t talking about Translucent, or claiming that Supers in general could never be beaten by humans, I was talking about Homelander.
So either you didn’t bother to thoroughly read my replies, or you’re being disingenuous.
Why does Maxima have personal reasons to believe that Cora is being truthful? Because she’s a friend of Dabbler?
Because she went into a dangerous hot zone where a set of genocidal aliens was exterminating the inhabitants of the imperial homeworld of an alien empire to retrieve a troop Maxima had been forced to leave behind.
Only a Lawyer wouldn’t understand what that means, so while your argument fails on every possible level you have at least proved your credentials.
“More because she has routinely trusted Dabbler’s advice when it comes to matters of the mystical or alien. And since Dabbler isn’t contradicting Cora here, she could send a message to Max over comms, then it’s very likely for Max to assume the radiation/mutation factor is very real.”
And yet they still have X following Dabbler around. You never seem to explain that bit of cognitive dissonance. If Max is a competent soldier, she knows to trust but VERIFY. And so far, Cora and Dabbler have given no way for the US government, which Maxima represents, to verify anything about the Fel ship ‘radiation.’
“Because she went into a dangerous hot zone where a set of genocidal aliens was exterminating the inhabitants of the imperial homeworld of an alien empire to retrieve a troop Maxima had been forced to leave behind.”
Actually, they assumed that Sydney would be hiding FROM the alien, and that they might be able to fly in and get her out beforehand. And doing a favor, for which a favor is going to be likely owed in return, is not the same as trust and verification.
“Only a Lawyer wouldn’t understand what that means, so while your argument fails on every possible level you have at least proved your credentials.”
Well, considering you’ve butchered my arguments by not understanding them (I am too mature to make the other witty retort on names:) ), you’ve lived up to your name as well. Also my argument hasnt failed at ALL. You just don’t want to respond to most of it. :)
“Listen, dude, are you trolling?”
You know, I’ve posted a ton on this comment board, and you’re one of the only ones who comes at me with insults. Even when I disagree with people, I’m at least courteous enough to not namecall or get personal. If anyone’s trolling, I could very easily argue that it would be you. But I’m just going to assume you’re getting a little heated up in an internet argument and you probably would be a very nice person if I met you in real life.
“I told you that I agreed, in my second reply to you, that Max wasn’t all powerful or the “end-all-be-all” of Supers. So you repeating it is nonsensical.”
No, I’m repeating it because your other argument seem to be claiming that Maxima would still be able to run roughshod over everyone and go rogue without consequence or any humanity-based way to stop her.
“Iron Man isn’t normal, he can make nigh-magical technology.”
Iron Man is definitely normal. He’s a normal genius billionaire playboy human.
Although I think you might be diminishing what it means to be ‘just human.’
Remember what Math said. There’s no such thing as ‘just human.’
“Captain America isn’t a normal human, he took a serum to give him super human abilities.”
Actually, Captain America took a serum that was made BY a human. And it gave him peak HUMAN abilities. So yeah, he’s human. He’s just the best human a human can be, thanks to an invention made by… another human. What you’re saying does not make sense – it’s like saying humans are not able to fly, even though they can build an airplane…. which lets them fly. That means they can fly. They just can’d do it under their own nature-based power. It doesn’t make pilots superhuman.
“Same with Butcher in the comics; he routinely takes a serum that gives him super-strength and durability.”
He didnt use it to kill either Noir OR Translucent. And even in the TV show, which is toned down from the comic, Butcher beat Translucent by running him over with a car, then Hughie electrocuted him, then they shoved C4 up his butt and detonated it, since his skin was invulnerable from the outside. Human ingenuity…. and explosives… and a Chevrolet.
“And why are you trying to cite fictional stories anyways?”
…. because we’re arguing about a fictional story in Grrlpower Universe.
So I cite other fictional stories. Unless you feel that there are superhuman flying invulnerable golden women, four armed magic-wielding alien succubi, and stygian psychic radiation in real life?
“Because, just like you citing The Boys, the stories are fictional and have no real basis in reality.”
I’m sorry but are you under the impression that Grrlpower is based on a true story?
“This is what makes me think you’re trolling. I wasn’t talking about Translucent, or claiming that Supers in general could never be beaten by humans, I was talking about Homelander.”
And literally in the same post I show you that Butcher KILLS Noir, who killed Homelander. I talked about Translucent because Translucent was also invulnerable, and Butcher killed him in the TV show. Why are you cherry-picking my posts and ignoring the pertinent parts? See… THAT seems like trolling. I’m not a troll. I’m a lawyer who’s rather good at debating. :) When you start namecalling, it does not look like you have a decent counter-argument.
“Even when I disagree with people, I’m at least courteous enough to not namecall or get personal.”
Apparently not enough to follow what I’ve been posting or the inherent illogical nature of the series you quote.
“If Max is a competent soldier, she knows to trust but VERIFY.”
She has verified their trustworthiness through experience.
“No, I’m repeating it because your other argument seem to be claiming that Maxima would still be able to run roughshod over everyone and go rogue without consequence or any humanity-based way to stop her.”
I claimed that she could defy an order/choose to do nothing. That’s something literally any soldier has the right to do; you choosing to take such a simple statement of fact that way is all on you.
“[The rest of your nonsense.]”
No, Pander, they basically have super-powers. No real life human being, not a one, could ever really match what Captain America, Iron Man, or Math are capable of.(Even Butcher needed the same serum that gives Supers their powers in The Boys.)
The human body and mind has some pretty hard limits on what it’s capable of, but that doesn’t make for good entertainment; So Captain America can get into a melee brawl with Thanos and not die, Math can knock a granite statue through a ceiling without breaking his arms.
Let me use Ironman as the final example here:
Tony Stark creates an Arc Reactor in a cave with a box of scraps and very clearly no understanding of what he’s talking about* and then Obadiah Stane ropes in a horde of scientists in a cutting edge lab with examples of the thing their working on, and those fucking scientists study it for weeks and tell him ‘I can’t do it, I’m not Tony Stark’, you have to accept that you’re really not talking about science anymore. At most, you’re talking about Science! Those so-called scientists had insufficient Science! compared to the Stark family, who’s Science! is genetic and omniapplicable.
“Apparently not enough to follow what I’ve been posting or the inherent illogical nature of the series you quote.”
That comeback didnt even make sense to the sentence that I said, to which you were responding.
Me: I’m courteous and I do not namecall.
You: You’re illogical and don’t understand my brilliance!
That’s what you just did :) Most likely because you are either unwilling or unable to counter my posts based on what I said in them, while I’m able to counter yours.
“She has verified their trustworthiness through experience.”
Maxima has literally known Cora for one day. And she does not trust Dabbler – she and Dabbler have an extremely adversarial relationship. Moreoever, for the Umpteenth time (which I’m willing to predict you will again ignore), Archon has X shadowing Dabbler at all times because, according to Dabbler herself, “Archon does not trust her.”
“I claimed that she could defy an order/choose to do nothing. That’s something literally any soldier has the right to do;”
Actaully no, any soldier does NOT have the right to defy an order. They only have a right to defy an ILLEGAL order. And they would still be court martialled for it. If the order was shown to be illegal, then they would be found innocent. But even Cora admits that the suits are LEGALLY in the right. So an order from the POTUS to Maxima to do something would be a LEGAL order. And a soldier does not have a ‘right’ to defy a legal order. And if they do defy an order, even if they do not know if it’s legal or not (and here, Maxima KNOWS it’s a legal order), they still do so at their own peril for the full consequences of refusing to obey a direct order from a superior.
Hell, Arianna literally spelled that out to Sydney before she joined Archon, that Maxima would be her superior and she could get in serious legal trouble if she refused to follow Maxima’s orders. You think that’s different when it’s the PRESIDENT giving an order? Read up on Article 89 an Article 90 of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, then get back to me. :)
““[The rest of your nonsense.]””
Namecalling and ad hominem attack, nice :) That’s very convincing.
“No, Pander, they basically have super-powers.”
So you think anyone who drives a tank or flies an F-15 has superpowers? Since in those pieces of technology, they can destroy buildings and blow up huge regions of land?
Do you think someone taking steroids has superpowers? Do you think someone on PCP who ignores pain has superpowers? Nope.
“No real life human being, not a one, could ever really match what Captain America,”
Captain America is literally described, both in the comic and by the creators, as ‘peak human condition’ – not superhuman.
“Iron Man,”
Again I bring up the example of an F-15 pilot. Just because Tony Stark created technology that lets him do things does mean he is no longer a human being or that he is a superhuman. He is a human in a suit. To quote the Avengers:
Steve Rogers: “Big man in a suit of armor. Take that off and what are you?”
Tony Stark: “Genius billionaire playboy philanthropist.”
Also to quote the Avengers:
Steve Rogers: “You may not be a threat but you better stop pretending to be a hero.”
Tony Stark: “A hero? Like you? You’re a laboratory experiment, Rogers. Everything special about you came out of a bottle.”
“or Math are capable of.”
So if someone is incredibly good at martial arts, they are no longer human? When Bruce Lee did the one-inch punch, did he suddenly become a superhuman? Because Bruce Lee also said “A boxer with one year of experience can beat a martial artist with 20 years of experience.” He also said the best defense against a person with a gun is to run away as fast as you can.” Sounds pretty human to me, despite that he did some amazing martial arts moves.
“(Even Butcher needed the same serum that gives Supers their powers in The Boys.)”
Seriously, do you read what I’m posting? He didnt use the serum to kill Noir (who killed Homelander) in the comic. And he didnt use the serum to kill Translucent, who is invulnerable, in the TV show.
“So Captain America can get into a melee brawl with Thanos and not die,”
Actually, without Mjolnir, he would die if Thanos wanted him dead. Thanos kills Captain America in the comics a few times, including by just slamming his hands into Cap’s head and turning his head into guacamole. And in the Infinity War movie, he beats Captain America in a few seconds. Cap was only barely able to keep his fist away for a second or two before Thanos rended him unconscious. And he didnt bother to kill Cap mainly because he didnt need to. Cap. Is. Human. Peak human, but human. Because of chemistry.
“Math can knock a granite statue through a ceiling without breaking his arms.”
Actually so can quite a few real life martial artists. And to quote Math: “There’s no such thing as JUST human.” But with Math, he might actually BE superhuman. They are not sure. More likely he’s like Cassandra Cain, who in DC is also peak human (although she also has the ability to read and predict body language – but so does Math, sorta – he mentions how Anvil telegraphs when she fights).
“Tony Stark creates an Arc Reactor in a cave with a box of scraps and very clearly no understanding of what he’s talking about”
Actually he clearly DOES understand what he’s talking about. And by the way, being a genius does not make you superhuman. Believe it or not, humans can be geniuses. I mean we wouldnt know that from some of the flame wars that happen on the internet and on TV daily, but trust me – humans can be geniuses.
“Obadiah Stane ropes in a horde of scientists in a cutting edge lab with examples of the thing their working on, and those fucking scientists study it for weeks and tell him ‘I can’t do it, I’m not Tony Stark’ you have to accept that you’re really not talking about science anymore”
OR…. and stick with me here…. Tony Stark is just a lot smarter than those scientists are. If you put Reed Richards in that room, he would have been able to do it, because in the Marvel universe, Reed Richards is smarter than Tony Stark (even before Reed Richards gained actual superpowers).
Maxima has definitely known Cora for more than a day and has trusted Dabbler’s judgement when it came to the lives of herself and her teammates on numerous occasions.
They occasionally bicker, at best. That’s not an “adversarial relationship.”
And spare me the rest. I never said Maxima wouldn’t face any legal consequences. So your constant repeating about how she wasn’t all powerful was still you leaping to conclusions at best and putting words in my mouth at worst.
****
“Captain America is literally described, both in the comic and by the creators, as ‘peak human condition’ – not superhuman.”
And that is revealed to be utterly false based on what he does in comics and movies. Even assuming peak human strength, what Cap does should be impossible.
“Seriously, do you read what I’m posting? He didnt use the serum to kill Noir”
Yes he did. Butcher, and the rest of his team, needed that serum quite a bit when they engaged most of the Supers. It gave them an advantage that just guns and bombs wouldn’t have been enough to cover.
“Actually, without Mjolnir,”
Yes, the mystical God hammer saved him ‘somehow’. But that’s just one of many scenes and feats of Cap defying physics.
Like him stopping a helicopter with his bear hands or beating up The Rhino without his shield.
“Actually so can quite a few real life martial artists.”
No they can’t.
Sending a human-sized granite statue flying several meters, and through a wall, is completely nonsensical. Even the best martial artists can barely send a fully grown man “flying” a few feet back at best.
Now back to Tony, he clear doesn’t understand, per this conversation;
[“Wow, that doesn’t look like a Jericho missile.”
“That’s because it is a miniaturized arc reactor. We got a big one powering my factory at home. It should keep the shrapnel out of my heart.”
“But what could it generate?”
“If my math is right, and it always is… three gigajoules per second.”
“That could run your heart for 50 lifetimes.”
“Yeah. Or something big for 15 minutes. This is our ticket outta here.”]
Props to Tony Stark for not understanding how a reactor works. And, really, for sucking at math by not understanding how much power three gigajoules per second is.
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“OR…. and stick with me here…. Tony Stark is just a lot smarter than those scientists are.”
That’s not how science or “being smart” works.
Through study millions of people have been able to understand and extrapolate upon the theories of geniuses like Stephen Hawking and Einstein, even if most of them technically weren’t as smart as those two. Because science and technology is based around quantifiable evidence and experimentation. Not “You need an arbitrary amount of brain points to be able to build/understand X”.
Saying that a team of scientists working for weeks, in a cutting edge lab, and with a live prototype aren’t able to replicate Tony’s tech is basically the same as saying it’s magic.
“They occasionally bicker, at best. That’s not an “adversarial relationship.””
Clearly you’re reading a different comic than everyone else is reading.
They have a VERY adversarial relationship, Maxima usually can’t stand Dabbler, and she has thrown her through walls at least once. Also did you forget Dabbler’s first showing in this comic where she and Maxima were in the same room during Sydney’s interview? Apparently you did.
Also you seem to keep forgetting that Archon has a handler that is constantly watching Dabbler because, IN DABBLERS OWN WORDS WHICH YOU SEEM TO DELIGHT IN IGNORING BECAUSE IT KILLS YOUR ARGUMENT, “They do not trust me.”
“And spare me the rest.”
Nope, I don’t spare you just because you made a poor argument which I was able to tear apart.
Not when you still act haughty about it even in defeat.
“And that is revealed to be utterly false based on what he does in comics and movies.”
I’m sure you know a whole lot more about the character than the creator of the character, Stan Lee, stated as Word of God.
That was sarcasm btw :).
Or maybe you just underestimate what a human is capable of doing. Batman stood up to Darkseid and won (on multiple occasions, including once where he mortally wounds Darkseid) and he’s human too, while Darkseid is a god (literally a god. The most powerful of the New Gods, who has beaten Superman in the past in physical fights).
“Yes he did. Butcher, and the rest of his team, needed that serum quite a bit when they engaged most of the Supers. It gave them an advantage that just guns and bombs wouldn’t have been enough to cover.”
Why do you keep ignoring that Butcher did not use the serum when he killed Noir, who killed Homelander? You seem to keep ignoring it because it destroys your argument.
“Yes, the mystical God hammer saved him ‘somehow’. But that’s just one of many scenes and feats of Cap defying physics.”
Mjolnir isnt physics, it’s magic. Cap picked it up not because he was stronger than a peak human can be – he picked it up because Cap was judged by Mjolnir to be worthy. And worthiness is not based on superhuman physical might, or Jane Foster wouldnt have been able to eventually pick it up in the comics, who not only is not peak human, but is a human with terminal cancer.
“No they can’t.”
Yes they can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GhTih_TQqc
But hey I’m sure you’ll ignore real life video as well, because you ignore anything that destroys your poor arguments, judging on how you’ve acted up to this point.
“And, really, for sucking at math by not understanding how much power three gigajoules per second is.”
I’m surprised that you know how much power a repulsor blast is capable of putting out when repulsor blasts don’t exist in real life. Tony Stark’s math is correct based on his in universe data. But hey, if you argue with Stan Lee about his own creations, you’d also argue with the characters about their own universe’s standards and reality, I suppose.
“That’s not how science or “being smart” works.”
I’m not sure you understand how science or being smart works.
“Through study millions of people have been able to understand and extrapolate upon the theories of geniuses like Stephen Hawking and Einstein, even if most of them technically weren’t as smart as those two.”
Steven Hawkings was proven wrong by a janitor. Also, you are simultaneously saying that Steven hawkings can explain his complex theories on quantum physics to someone like you, but Dabbler could not explain how her scanner works to even the most brilliant human scientists on the planet.
Seems like you’re being massively inconsistent, as usual.
“Saying that a team of scientists working for weeks, in a cutting edge lab, and with a live prototype aren’t able to replicate Tony’s tech is basically the same as saying it’s magic.”
Nope, it just means they are not as smart. The people who tried to recreate teflon tried for DECADES, with BILLIONS of dollars, with access to teflon. And they couldnt figure out the process for making teflon by people who were smarter than they were as well.
Prove it?
Okay. Done.
Walk outside of this building, and go over to that ship. Take as big a chunk as you can carry and have your agency sequester you in a secure place for a week.
General Faulk, will you make the necessary arrangements?
And in the interim, the ship stays put and humans get to examine it and test it, since we are very sure that you, Cora (whom we DO NOT TRUST, remember) is going to contact the Xevoarchy to try to destroy the ship from orbit during this stall tactic? :)
Okay.
So basically you (fictional me is talking to the aliens when saying this) would be fine with the risk of Fel corruption (according to your claims, alien) as long as it means humans can get NO technology whatsoever, including your scanning technology, from aliens. Yet another reason to not trust aliens. By the way, while a person is in quarantine with a piece of the tech, humans will be scouring the ship for every bit of tech they can learn from on the ship. If you try to stop us, it’s an act of war. At least we’ll have a week to find out all those alien secrets.
Also, since I’m the registered a-hole in a suit, I will be getting a loyal volunteer to do the quarantine, instead of me, since I am very important and have suit-related duties to attend to that necessitate me not being quarantined for a week. I’m sure you won’t have a guilty conscience or anything about that. :) I sure won’t, since I’m a heartless, untrusting suit who is nevertheless intelligent and logical.
If he comes at her with that tone, then Cora might just leave and let him wipe out humanity.
Cora has been a generally nice person, but her patience obviously has limits and she has no special connection to this planet or it’s people. And she can’t make them make the right decision.
So if A-Suit wants to put the Fel ship into a vastly ineffective quarantine while threatening her with death/violence if she tries to stop them… then Cora would likely just go home and wait for the carnage to start. They made their choice.
Fictional aliens refuse to violate the sovereignty of backwards primitives even to save them.
They have supers, maybe they can save themselves, or maybe not.
Demonstrate in exquisite detail why their civilization is too immature to be just handed technology, the primitives then rage against travelers who didn’t intervene against earths wishes.
“Maxima usually can’t stand Dabbler, and she has thrown her through walls at least once.”
Yeah they argue a lot and occasionally engage in slap-stick. But that doesn’t change the fact that Maxima has shown implicit trust in her decisions when lives were on the line. Specifically whenever it came to the arcane or alien.
“I’m sure you know a whole lot more about the character than the creator of the character, Stan Lee, stated as Word of God.”
I am capable of reading the comics, which shows Captain America plainly doing things not even peak humans should be able to.
“Batman stood up to Darkseid and won (on multiple occasions, including once where he mortally wounds Darkseid) and he’s human too, while Darkseid is a god (literally a god. The most powerful of the New Gods, who has beaten Superman in the past in physical fights).”
Which also makes no sense considering the ridiculous amounts of power and intellect Darkseid has. The character is infamous for forgetting his powers for random reasons or not using them to their fullest.
Batman beating Darkseid would be as ridiculous as if Captain America single-handily beating Thanos.
“Why do you keep ignoring that Butcher did not use the serum when he killed Noir, who killed Homelander? You seem to keep ignoring it because it destroys your argument.”
Because it’s irrelevant. Butcher and his team used it for the other, weaker Supers and then used military might against Noir who turned out to be a hilariously weak Superman-expy.
It, in part, took super-powers to beat people who also got super-powers from a fictional serum.
“Yes they can.”
Yeah, a martial artist with the proper position, strike, and leverage can break through several inches of stone slabs.
They cannot however; do a kick from a standing position with no leverage to launch a granite statue over a foot into the air, and then with no running start to help with momentum, launch it several dozen meters away with a palm strike. Which is what Math did.
That’s super strength, plain and simple.
“I’m surprised that you know how much power a repulsor blast is capable of putting out when repulsor blasts don’t exist in real life. Tony Stark’s math is correct based on his in universe data.”
So it’s about as real as the magic system from Harry Potter. I.E: No basis in reality and only available to a select few people based on arbitrary standards.
“Also, you are simultaneously saying that Steven hawkings can explain his complex theories on quantum physics to someone like you, but Dabbler could not explain how her scanner works to even the most brilliant human scientists on the planet.”
I never said that, what are you on? Dabbler hides her tech for the express reason of keeping humanity from bounding forward in development.
“Nope, it just means they are not as smart. The people who tried to recreate teflon tried for DECADES, with BILLIONS of dollars, with access to teflon. And they couldnt figure out the process for making teflon by people who were smarter than they were as well.”
What ‘people’ are you talking about? It’s widely known how to make teflon, you can look it up and figure it out right now. Because, unlike the Iron Man suit, teflon is made using real science and experimentation.
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“Steven Hawkings was proven wrong by a janitor.”
That’s awfully insulting, Leonard Susskind become one of the world’s greatest physicists. Though I’m surprised you admit to being able to understand what he proved wrong, I thought normal people couldn’t understand the genius of people smarter than them?
I hope you realize I won’t stop responding to you as long as you keep saying things that are inaccurate, downright false, or strawman.
“Yeah they argue a lot and occasionally engage in slap-stick. But that doesn’t change the fact that Maxima has shown implicit trust in her decisions when lives were on the line.”
She most definitely does not have ‘implicit trust’ in her. Again, there’s a reason X is always keeping watch on her. And why Maxima keeps having to warn and/or threaten Dabbler.
“Specifically whenever it came to the arcane or alien.”
Dabbler is not in charge of arcane stuff at Archon, Zephan is, and Gwen is some sort of assistant to him. Even in the tech parts, it’s unlikely that Dabbler is ‘in charge’ – there was another person there who was human, who DaveB has not introduced to us yet.
“I am capable of reading the comics, which shows Captain America plainly doing things not even peak humans should be able to.”
The idea that you are capable of reading the comics shows all evidence to the contrary, given that in the comics itself, they ALWAYS state that Captain America took the Super Soldier Serum, which makes him ‘the best a human being can be’ – ie, peak human. Case in point, when there was a DC/Marvel crossover, he squared off against Batman, a DC peak human character (and not even the most powerful peak human in DC, there’s like 5 others who are better, including Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Karate Kid, and Richard Dragon – and Batman still managed to beat Karate Kid), and Batman and Cap both agreed that they were at an impasse as both of them were equally matched.
Captain America is peak human. Which means human still, not superhuman. You can keep repeating yourself all you want, but you it won’t change what’s in the comic or what the writers and creator of Captain America have repeatedly stated as fact. Just because you don’t LIKE it does not mean it changes. That’s not how life works, sorry.
“Yeah, a martial artist with the proper position, strike, and leverage can break through several inches of stone slabs.”
Actually they can do it even without the proper leverage. And have. On video. Including Bruce Lee. And again – google ‘One Inch Punch.’
“That’s super strength, plain and simple.”
And yet Math is not a super as far as Archon can tell, or they’d introduce him as ‘superhuman’ instead of as ‘a very very good martial artist to the point where you can’t even tell if he was human with extraordinary abilities or superhuman.’ Why not just call him superhuman? Because he’s not superhuman.
“So it’s about as real as the magic system from Harry Potter.”
Magic is literally not something humans can do. In Harry Potter, they show this by how humans are ‘muggles’ – who cannot do magic. Which makes them different from wizards, who CAN do magic.
“I.E: No basis in reality and only available to a select few people based on arbitrary standards.”
It’s a basis in reality in the Marvel universe. And in the Marvel universe, what Tony Stark has accomplished is NOT a superhuman feat – it’s the feat of someone who is has normal human physical abilities, but happens to be an almost unparallelled genius (#4 in the Marvel 616 world, in fact, after Reed Richards, Dr. Doom, and Hank Pym, although Stan Lee used to say Peter Parker might also be smarter than Stark, but without the limitless funds or ambition) with access to billions of dollars. So yes, he’s human. Deal with it. A human in a high tech suit is still a human. Lex Luthor is still human even when he’s wearing a suit which can be used to fight Superman. Batman is still human even when he beat Superman with his exoskeleton (both in the horrible movie and in The Dark Knight Returns comic book)
“available to a select few people based on arbitrary standards.”
Yes not every human being has access to billions of dollars, and some human beings are a lot smarter than others, which I think is painfully evident. It doesnt mean the person who has billions is no longer human, and it doesn’t mean the smarter person is no longer human as well.
“I never said that, what are you on?”
I’m on the internet, reading and quoting all your poorly formed arguments.
“Dabbler hides her tech for the express reason of keeping humanity from bounding forward in development.”
For the purpose of the reasons she gave to Sydney in the bathroom of the restaurant. Because there is a Prime Directive type of situation in space, enforced by the Xevoarchy. And in Dabbler’s case, it’s because she wants humans to have a certain level of technological patience before getting access to it, plus she thinks humans tend to have a rather violent streak in their history. It’s not for just any reason to keep humans from ‘bounding forward.’ It’s to ‘protect them from themselves.’ Now… the existing scenario is ‘humans already have access now to advanced tech which is dangerous to them because of stygian radiation.’ The choice she NOW has is ‘give them some advanced tech which is NOT as dangerous, and which I can hopefully explain to them how to use safely’ or ‘they use the corrupted tech which can turn them all into murdering psychos’ – the lesser of the two is to give her safer tech to them, in exchange for the dangerous tech. For some reason, you are incapable of understanding this, no matter how many times people explain it to you.
“What ‘people’ are you talking about?”
Roy J Plunkett, inventor of Teflon, worked at DuPont. The ‘people’ I am talking about are DuPont’s competitors who were trying to reproduce teflon, which was NOT patented, and existed under a trade secret for decades. Dozens of major corporations spent tens of billions (if not more) trying to figure it out, including people who were geniuses in their own right and they couldn’t figure it out for DECADES. Because Roy J Plunkett was smarter than they were insofar as how to invent teflon.
And teflon was made with real science, based on techniques that other people simply could not figure out no matter how many geniuses they threw at it, and no matter how many billions of dollars were spent. Again, I stress, for DECADES.
“BUT ROY J PLUNKETT INVENTED THIS IN A SMALL LAB! WITH LIMITED FUNDING!”
“Sir, I’m not Roy J Plunkett.”
“That’s awfully insulting, Leonard Susskind become one of the world’s greatest physicists.”
You seem to find when people tell the TRUTH, that it’s insulting. No, it’s not insulting. It’s just the truth. Steven Hawkings was proven wrong by Leonard Susskind who had no formal academic training, had worked in a drug store and as a janitor, did HORRIBLY in school, BEFORE becoming one of the world’s greatest theoretical physicists.
Point being, Susskind was a smarter physicist than even the smartest physicist alive at the time (Steven Hawkings). And yet both Susskind and Hawkings are… human beings. Unless you want to go with the joke that Hawkings was practically a cyborg.
“I’m surprised you admit to being able to understand what he proved wrong, I thought normal people couldn’t understand the genius of people smarter than them?”
It’s decades later. Things become easier to understand once people have had time to figure how to simplify it for the very above intelligent masses like myself. :)
Also I have access to google.
Ok before everyone gets silly with there so called google foo yes the Soviet Union was using Fluorinated ethylene propylene in the 60 s in there nuclear enrichment program. However they were apparently getting it from Europe and were Not making it themselves at the time.
Did you forget the Sciona arc? Maxima trusts Dabbler with a lot several times throughout it. And she only “threatens” Dabbler when she’s acting inappropriate.(I.E. Like a succubus.)
Also; So you’re point now is that word of the author matters more than anything else?
Because you’re not even denying that what Math did was basically super-strength, that sometimes Cap and Batman do things that shouldn’t be possible for normal humans, or that the explanations/study of Iron Man’s tech makes no sense. You’re just saying they’re claimed to, “only be able to do what a peak/very smart human can”, despite them blatantly going beyond that threshold.
I get the feeling you’d deny any physics defying feat I brought up, just because of that. Instead of coming to the logical conclusion that comics are inconsistent in their portrayal of what humans can do.
“The choice she NOW has is ‘give them some advanced tech which is NOT as dangerous, and which I can hopefully explain to them how to use safely’ or ‘they use the corrupted tech which can turn them all into murdering psychos’”
Or they could just let Cora destroy the radiated tech and be done with the whole thing.
“Roy J Plunkett, inventor of Teflon, worked at DuPont.”
Who discovered teflon by accident. It had almost nothing to do with intellect or innate knowledge that you somehow think he was born with: He got lucky, plain and simple.
“Steven Hawkings was proven wrong by Leonard Susskind who had no formal academic training, had worked in a drug store and as a janitor, did HORRIBLY in school, BEFORE becoming one of the world’s greatest theoretical physicists.”
Again; that makes no sense. How do you think intelligence works? That Susskind just had knowledge of physics beamed into his brain?
No, he was a great physicist when he proved Hawkings wrong by evidence of him knowing a lot about the subject himself.
“It’s decades later. Things become easier to understand once people have had time to figure how to simplify it for the very above intelligent masses like myself.”
Apparently not for comic-book technology like Iron Man’s suit.
“Did you forget the Sciona arc? Maxima trusts Dabbler with a lot several times throughout it.”
Trusting Dabbler more than a psychopathic murderer who wants to enslave or destroy the entire planet is not that high a bar. It doesn’t translate to ‘I trust her more than I want to follow my own government, to which I’ve sworn an oath of loyalty and over a decade of my life.’
“Also; So you’re point now is that word of the author matters more than anything else?”
Uh….. yes. If the author is saying they intended one thing, I’m not going to be so hubristic to assume I know more about their creation than they do. You seem to have that level of hubris though. It’s not like DaveB handed his creation off to some new writer and they changed everything, like Rian Johnson did with Star Wars, DaveB is the Stan Lee of Grrlpower. His word goes. The most I ever do would be to point out where DaveB might have admitted he forgets something, like with how the comm orb can go through objects, which he admitted in a blurb. But I wouldnt be so arrogant as to think I know more about HIS characters than HE does. You really need to get a grip on your ego, Blonk.
“Because you’re not even denying that what Math did was basically super-strength,”
Because what he did is not superstrength within the Grrlpower universe, just like what Batman or Captain America do are not superstrength within their universes.
Herer – this is Captain America fighting a villain who had recently taken out ALL THE REST OF THE AVENGERS. And what does he KEEP saying? This is no god fighting you, no super-man… just a man!
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0799e1f5287d6c3189ea778e78a0b21c.webp
But hey, you’ll probably argue that too, despite it being blatantly obvious that Marvel considers Cap to be a man, not a superhuman. You have a really arrogant view about your opinion, putting it above videos, shown pictures, and word of god, and without any real cause to be so, since you’ve been consistently wrong. It’s just ‘if anyone disagrees with me, they are wrong no matter what the evidence presented is.’
“I get the feeling you’d deny any physics defying feat I brought up, just because of that.”
Except every time you bring up something, I show you with actual evidence that you’re wrong. At which point you cover your ears.
“Instead of coming to the logical conclusion that comics are inconsistent in their portrayal of what humans can do.”
Like the ‘human beings cannot destroy granite with their fists, which they can do.’ Also, take things from an in-universe perspective. In universe, everything Mathias has done is within the realm of a Grrlpower martial artist of his expertise. Deal with it. You seem incapable of not arguing without using meta-knowledge. And even when I humor you and use meta-knowledge to disprove your assertions, you still ignore it because it goes against the narrative in your head.
“Who discovered teflon by accident.”
But he figured a use for that accident on purpose, and marketed it. And it was done in such a way that other geniuses could not duplicate it.
“It had almost nothing to do with intellect or innate knowledge”
Genius is usually not innate. It’s trained by study, as is business acumen. My point, which seems to fly over your head, is people are capable of being smarter than other people. I’m not sure why you think this is an inconceivable notion :).
The idea that you think that it’s impossible for one person to come up with something that cannot be duplicated by another person simply because the first person was smarter is laughable.
“Sometimes Cap and Batman do things that shouldn’t be possible for normal humans, or that the explanations/study of Iron Man’s tech makes no sense.”
Normal humans are not ‘peak human.’ That’s like saying anyone can outswim Michael Phelps. Michael Phelps is not superhuman, but can do things that most humans cannot do, because he is in peak physical condition for swimming. But he’s still HUMAN.
“You’re just saying they’re claimed to, “only be able to do what a peak/very smart human can”, despite them blatantly going beyond that threshold.”
Dear, just because you’re incapable of doing it does not mean there’s no one else who is human who is capable of doing it. Put your ego in check for a moment.
“Again; that makes no sense. How do you think intelligence works? That Susskind just had knowledge of physics beamed into his brain?”
Intelligence works one of two ways – you are born with it, or you train. It’s said that you can become a genius in a field if you dedicate 10 years to a subject. Even so, there will still be some natural talent involved to put you in the top of your field, even against other geniuses. Susskind had natural genius when it came to scientific reasoning, and he studied on his own, without benefit of academia to become the top theoretical physicist in his field.
Take my job for example. I like to consider myself a rather good attorney, but there are attorneys that are better. Even if I have the same amount of experience as another attorney, that other attorney might just have some natural charisma or appearance of authority that I simply do not have, or I might have some appeal to a judge or jury that the other attorney does not have, which will give an edge, if everything else is the same.
Or take basketball. Classic example is Larry Bird vs Michael Jordan. Skill wise, they’re pretty neck and neck, but I’d say that Michael Jordan had an advantage in physical characteristics to make him the better basketball player most of the time.
“No, he was a great physicist when he proved Hawkings wrong by evidence of him knowing a lot about the subject himself.”
Uh…. actually he was already a great physicist even when he was not recognized. Intelligence isnt given to you by the group.
“Apparently not for comic-book technology like Iron Man’s suit.”
The Russians could not duplicate the accuracy of American technology when it came to nuclear missiles. Even after decades of trying and spying and billions of dollars spent in the effort. So they gave up trying, and just made a missile that could NOT MISS a target by making the blast radius insanely huge, the Tsar Bomba.
What’s the similarity between this example and the Iron Man suit example? THEY WERE TRYING TO KEEP IT SECRET!
They ARE NOT TRYING TO KEEP SUSSKINDS THEORIES SECRET! It’s well publicized, with people TRYING to teach it to students, and Susskind published papers trying to explain his theories as well.
You are trying to compare my ability to understand something that has been published and taught for decades now with people not being able to understand something that is kept intentionally secret for decades. It seems like an inherent disconnect in your way of thinking.
“It doesn’t translate to ‘I trust her more than I want to follow my own government, to which I’ve sworn an oath of loyalty and over a decade of my life.’”
Maxima may not be willing to follow government orders if she has strong reason to believe doing so could lead to the extinction of the nation/people she swore to protect.
***
Also: Nice to see you’ve given up on your whole “Even a human can beat a God/Superman-expy” thing.
Because at this point you’re not even relying on actual human capabilities; Because in every comic book series/super powers based novel humans need to be given special abilities and magical tech just to keep up.
They’re basically only in human in so far that they get the label slapped onto them despite having what are basically super powers of their own.
“But hey, you’ll probably argue that too, despite it being blatantly obvious that Marvel considers Cap to be a man, not a superhuman.”
Yeah, because you just showed me a strip of Cap staggering someone who tanked laser fire and super-strength punches just fine earlier.
It’s blatantly inconsistent and ludicrous.
“Like the ‘human beings cannot destroy granite with their fists, which they can do.’”
I never said that, you’re lying.
What I said was:
“The idea that you think that it’s impossible for one person to come up with something that cannot be duplicated by another person simply because the first person was smarter is laughable.”
It hasn’t happened before in history since that’s not how real science works. And your only example was revealed to be an accidental invention that needs more luck than skill to make without knowing how.
“But he figured a use for that accident on purpose, and marketed it. And it was done in such a way that other geniuses could not duplicate it.”
No, he created it by accident, kept the exact mixture needed a secret, and then marketed it. Any other competent business man would have been able to do the same if they’d stumbled upon it first.
But since, as the creator himself mentioned, making teflon without knowing the materials needed requires more luck than skill. It practically doesn’t matter how smart the person trying is.
“What’s the similarity between this example and the Iron Man suit example? THEY WERE TRYING TO KEEP IT SECRET!”
Multiple governments, secret organizations, and other groups with top of the line laboratories have already gotten their hands on arc reactors/Iron Man suits. It’s a pretty shot secret at this point.
Captain America (the Rogers version) is hardly a, what was that you called him? a human with no special powers? Have you forgotten the Super Soldier Serum? That turned Rogers from a 90 pound weakling into a Charles Atlas?
I’m not forgetting the Super Soldier Serum, but that was something invented by a human as well. Just like Tony STark’s Iron Man suit was created by a human.
Tony Stark and Steve Rogers are humans who’s abilities come from human invention – one from technology, the other from chemistry (until Tony Stark creates the Extremis Formula, then his abilities come from technology AND chemistry). They’re not gods. They’re human. And they beat a god who lost because he was hubristic.
And again, I can use something other than Marvel if you want, like the Boys. Homelander vs Billy Butcher. One’s basically an evil superman. The other is human.
Injustice Superman vs Injustice Batman.
Suicide Squad.
Cadmus.
You back humanity into a corner, thinking you are unbeatable? Watch how long it takes for them to prove you wrong. That’s Supervillain Tropes 101. I mean, they have a whole list – the Evil Overlord List.
The point is, it made Rogers more than a mere human, same a the Iron Man suit makes Stark (and every one else who puts one on) more than a human
No, it made Rogers ‘peak human’ which is still human. They even say that in the movie that he’s ‘the best that a human can be.’ But in ANY case, the point is he used a human invention to become better than he would be NATURALLY. But that does not mean he is not human, any more than Tony Stark is not a human in a metal high-tech suit. Or that an American Airlines pilot is not human capable of flying something that can lift hundred of people off the ground and fly them through the air. They’re all human. They’re humans using what humans have used since the dawn of civilization – technology to let them compete with non-humans that have superior natural weaponry.
Think of what Picard said to the proto-vulcan.
Picard: “Suppose one of your cave-dwelling ancestors were to see you as you are today. What would she think? Put yourself in her place. SHE cannot kill a hornbuck from a great distance. You can. You have a power she lacks.”
Nuria (Proto-vulcan): “Only because I have a bow….”
Picard, “She has never SEEN a bow! It doesn’t EXIST in her world! To you, it’s a simple tool. To her…. it’s magic.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZESAxrv88j8
Last time I checked Charles Atlas was human.
Yep. As was Jack Lalane. :) And Bruce Lee, even when he did the one-inch punch. I think some people grossly underestimate how powerful someone who is ‘peak human’ would be if there was a serum that could unlock that non-superhuman potential.
It is true that Maxima can not choose to ignore a legal order.
It is also true that the order to enforce the salvage rights is (almost certainly) a legal one. Maxima could argue that the person issueing the orders is not cognisent of the long term consequences of this radiation and she must disobey a lawful order to prevent greater harm to the USA, but that is very thin ice indeed that the average court martial likely will not accept as defense.
Maxima can of course resign her commission, ending then and there the general’s authority to command her to actions.
Also a small correction on your comment: Cora is not threatening with orbital bombardment. She is /warning/ that this /will be/ the response of the galactic community if the USA keeps the wreck and transforms the continent or the planet into a fel hive as a consequence.
I hope you will ever lack any authority outside the civilian realms.
The oath of office of an officer of the US military lacks entirely the word “obey”. Their oath is to uphold and bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and to fulfill the duty of their office. The vagueness is deliberate and intentional–the word “obey” was removed in 1884.
An officer is required to exercise independent judgement as to what those words mean. If their judgement varies too much from those of their superiors–that’s what boards of inquiry are for.
There can be–and in these discussions there certainly are–strong arguments to be made for various positions on the matter currently confronting our heros. Your arguments are of course not specific to this situation, so I’m going to draw out a few corners of them.
First off is the draft. Review the 13th (https://usconstitution.net/xconst_Am13.html). Explain how it is that we have had a draft since then. Mechanically, the US Supreme Court has played the artful dodger for the entire period.
My point is that if you take the oath of officers too woodenly, they would have to refuse to lead draftees, perhaps resigning in protest or something.
Continuing on in this vein, have you seen https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305 ? It is not a big tip in the scales politically to argue that supers should “earn their keep” and end up being sent down that path.
I’m not arguing that Maxima should do as she sees fit. I’m arguing that she can only do as she sees fit. She joined the military with the intent of putting herself between the bad guys and the quavering masses. Even if those bad guys turn out to be well-intentioned politicians or bureaucrats.
—
As for this particular scene, it is bordering on hilarious that you have Cora speaking for ARC & the TC. Clearly, a point is being made that is sailing over the head of the suits. Just like this decision.
False. The word “obey” is present in the current oath.
https://history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html
Maybe you were thinking of the 1962 version?
Since when is Maxima enlisted? Check the officers’ oath. It is not the same.
Reading over all the comments on salvage law and spoils of war. I gotta say. This would be incredibly difficult. There’s no real chain of command or legal jurisdiction for this. The problem here is earth has no contact with the intergalactic community until now. So even if space cops did show up to back up Cora. They wouldn’t have any jurisdiction here. Forget Third world this is uncontacted Amazon tribe got ahold of an unexploded bio weapon levels of catastrophe. Realistically I think the only reasonable compromise would be to gather a joint investigative team of human scientists and Alari since they live here now and have them work with Cora and dabbler. Then abide whatever that team recommends. Otherwise from a political angle. Some space faring society would likely be forced to trade us for the fel ship and joining onto intergalactic treaties that would grant the proper authorities the ability to do stuff here, like give the space cops jurisdiction. Admittedly what they’d have to trade us would probably be fairly minor by their standards. Something like a cure for cancer would absolutely do it imo.
The “Earthians” need to QUICKLY wake up to the fact that they fall within a higher jurisdiction. … Nothing states that the universe is Democratic or recognizes the sovereignty of the United States; they probably think that quaint Earthain law applies only so long as it doesn’t contradict galactic law. Forget about the infested space wreck; the MIBs need to get copies of interstellar law and start training up attorneys and filing petitions!!!
The non-Earthians need to quickly wake up to the fact that humans are not helpless, and treating them as second class citizens of the universe, expecting trust when giving no trust in return, is a bad move.
And the universe does seem to have at least some form of ‘democratic’ function, at least insofar as the Xevoarchy is a thing that exists. But for anyone to say ‘The laws of your planet are irrelevant to our space federation’ is basically a slippery slope to saying ‘You are subservient to us.’ That seems to go against the concept of the Xevoarchy as well, given how they are hesitant to get involved in pre-FTL civilizations.
In any case I volunteer to be a space attorney for the Grrlpower-verse on behalf of Earth.
They aren’t treating them like second class citizens, they’re treating them the same as they would any of their own citizen planets (which is a step up since they aren’t yet).
The difference is that any other member of the galactic community would already know that Fel tech is bad for them and would be happy that someone else was willing to foot the bill for cleanup.
A good point, and one worth keeping in mind.
No. Telling someone to trust you, while at the same time you do not trust them, putting them intentionally on an unequal setting – that is not treating them equally. That’s a second class citizen on a galactic stage, as are all pre-FTL civilizations. Especially after Sydney and Deus have both already shown that humans can get to far-away civilizations without FTL drive.
Tell you what… I think your house is haunted. Let me blow it up. I’m a psychic and I can show you some sort of gadget that picks up ectoplasmic radiation. I won’t show you how it works though, you should just trust me because I’m smarter than you, and it’s definitely not because I want your house gone. Just do as I say, since I know more than you and you are not as important as I am.
That’s the analogy to what Cora’s doing when she doesn’t give the humans any way to verify her data. Just because Earth does not have FTL yet, and therefore is not worthy of other technology that aliens have.
Earth doesn’t have FTL yet? Well…. the rest of the galaxy can’t destroy a Fel battlecruiser with one shot, cannot create aetherium causeways that can be made with objects that go in your pocket, and cannot out-strength Stalwart, who is not even the strongest super. So I guess Earth has stuff that the galaxy doesn’t have as well. Measuring it all by just FTL tech, then saying that translates to no technology for ANYTHING ELSE, including technology to RECOGNIZE THE DANGEROUS PSYCHIC RADIATION? I fail to see the logic to that if they genuinely have Earth’s safety in mind. Seems more like hoarding tech because they don’t trust Earth, but want Earth to trust them instead.
Trust. Okay. But VERIFY.
Where did she say she didn’t trust them? She’s saying they aren’t’ capable of handling the hazardous waste, which is true (we can’t even handle our own most of the time).
As for your specious ghost analogy see my reply to the last time you posted it.
The guy isn’t “trust but verify” he’s “distrust and ignore all verification”.
She doesn’t trust them because she won’t share ANY tech with the humans – not even the scanning tech. Because of the same reasoning that Dabbler told Sydney in the bathroom, about the equivalent of a prime directive. And the suit guy even reiterates what Cora had told the suit guys before this panel, offscreen.
I will quote:
“using equipment that she won’t allow us to examine!”
That’s a lack of trust. It’s not like a scanner capable of detecting psychic radiation can become a weapon for a race of xenocidal hairless tool-using apes. I can understand not wanting to give weapons technology to the humans. I can even understand not wanting to give FTL, since it’s one of the ‘great filters’ (although I don’t see why they can’t examine the Fel FTL to get an idea… it’s not like Deus is not getting his hands over the Alari ship’s FTL – the genie is already out of the bottle there – the filter has been passed. But sidestepping that, the scanner is advanced technology which could alleviate this entire argument by PROVING the existence of psychic radiation in a way that would be credible to humans, if only they trusted them enough to show how it works. Which they don’t.
“The guy isn’t “trust but verify” he’s “distrust and ignore all verification”.”
Okay, for the fourteenth or so time on this comment board, I will ask – what sort of credible VERIFICATION have they been given. It’s just trust, and NO verify. There’s no verification TO ignore, because they won’t show how the scanner works. It could be a kids toy with blinking lights for all they can tell, until you show how it works. So no, you’re just wanting blind trust. Or trust based on what you, as an audience member from outside the universe, know because you know what the author (the GOD of that universe) is thinking.
“As for your specious ghost analogy see my reply to the last time you posted it.”
How about explain your reply here? Since I can’t see yours. And my ‘ghost analogy’ is hardly specious. It’s almost an exact duplication of what’s happening here, in fact, as far as the suits and ANY OTHER HUMANS in-universe would be concerned.
Yes, was going to mention this is no one else did
The US Salvage Rights don’t mean shit on a hot-dog to a galaxy that barely even recognizes the US’s existence (honestly surprised Cora has let this farce get to this stage)
They recognize the Earth’s existence enough that they didn’t want the Fel going to Earth in the first place.
You don’t want rabid dogs going into a day care center either.
Note how said they don’t recognize the US’s existence, not Dirt’s
Dirt does not have a single governing body (no, the Twilight Council of Monsters doesn’t count)
“Note how said they don’t recognize the US’s existence”
Then that’s just being ignorant of them. Also probably incorrect, since aliens DO live on Earth, and it’s a good idea to have some idea of the political makeup of a planet that you have tourism directed at.
“Dirt does not have a single governing body (no, the Twilight Council of Monsters doesn’t count)”
Aside from the fact that the Council WOULD, in fact, count (and in fact would count even more than any nation, since aliens like Irradon are members of THE COUNCIL), why would you think that a planet which has significant alien tourism, even if without the majority of the population’s knowledge, would not have any comprehension of the political makeup of that planet?
Laws extend as far as they can be enforced. International law tends to get enforced with trade sanctions because invasions are messy and expensive. If we don’t trade with them, their laws are pretty much unenforceable short of violent acts that any sane governments would shy away from. Look at North Korea; decades of hostility and an active nuclear program wasn’t enough of a threat to get the “international community” to invade or attack them, because the casualties and costs were astronomical even before they got nukes. “Law”, really, means very little in international relations, it’s really just how the major nations likes to frame their demands.
I think the Xevoarchy might be hesitant to strongarm a species that managed to take down a Fel Battlecruiser with just a handful of soldiers, especially if there are less drastic, more incentivizing ways to get the humans to let them throw the battlecruiser into the sun, like giving them non-weapon-based, but advanced, technology which would be difficult to use destructively for humanity’s ‘mildly violent’ mentality. Like…. cures to diseases. Food replication (or cheap and nutritious food that can be grown in ANY soil). Scanning technology.
Also it’s not like Cora isnt ‘mildly violent’ also, as we saw on Fracture Station. :)
Point being…. offering a carrot can work better than waving a stick.
But you have been asserting for two days that earthians don’t want a carrot.
Where have I been asserting that?
In fact, I’ve been continually saying that the best route to negotiating with the ‘Earthians’ is to offer them advanced SAFE technology, in a controlled setting, in exchange for the supposedly dangerous Fel ‘psychic radiating’ technology, plus giving them the scientific understanding of how the safe technology WORKS, instead of having to backwards engineer the dangerous technology from scratch.
Free disposal of toxic wreckage is absolutely a carrot.
I have to say that it has been funny to watch you fill the devil’s advocate for indefensible things role that Guesticus normally fills…but he carries it off better than you do.
Again, you are using meta-knowledge to have the suit guys know that the wreckage is toxic without relying on BLIND TRUST on Dabbler’s scanner tech, when Dabbler refuses to show how the scanner actually works or the science behind it.
Also, the fact that you seem utterly incapable of arguing without engaging in personal attacks says something about you (and for some reason you are insulting someone else who IS ACTUALLY AGREEING WITH YOUR INCORRECT ASSERTION), and it’s not something positive or reflecting remotely well about your character or intelligence.
The Space Cops aleady did show up, remember? And they did alert their superiors to the fact that a Fel invasion force was casually wiped out by a primitive planet. This whole discussion about salvage rights may become moot when the Xevoarchy arrives in full force.
We have no reason to assume that the Xevoarchy is incompetent.
From what we have been repeatedly shown they are if anything over cautious regarding the use of force.
They will send diplomats first because that’s the way they roll.
Right. Which likely means they’d be more willing to try to give the humans something in order to convince them to let them destroy the fel ship instead of go hardline. If they didnt destroy the Alari with all they’ve done, they’re not going to go ‘give it to us or we will kill you’ with Earth. They just won’t give FTL tech.
Cora already admitted that aliens have been exploiting humanity for thousands of years. So forgive me if I agree with suit guy here. She needs to either shut up and prove that psychic radiation exists in a way humanity can actually double check or get the heck out.
Sydney’s truesight can detect non-material effects, like Vehemence’s aura.
BUT.. Has that option been unlocked yet?
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-277-aura-you-having-chowdah-at-the-cah-pahk/
Yes it has.
Actually, this is a very good point. Halo, Krona, and Specs all have a decent chance of detecting something from the ship. Maybe the next panel will show Sydney checking it out after leaving the building, on her way to finally get to the store and start the long-awaited RPG session from the comic’s flash-forward introductory flashback.
Yeah, I have been hoping this will lead to the start of the RPG since this morning.
The opening issue seemed to be the final boss fight at the end of a campaign so I am hoping they will get the campaign started and show vignettes of the progressing campaign now and then.
Jo-El has had a couple of months to get Olivia into comics and an RPG would be the next level.
We still haven’t met the other two players (skinny clean shaven blond guy and bland brown haired guy) but if Harem has been coming bye the store could be big enough for five employees by now.
Cora already admitted that aliens have been exploiting humanity for thousands of years. So forgive me if I agree with suit guy here. She needs to either shut up and prove that psychic radiation exists in a way humanity can actually double check or get the heck out.
Hell, even if true I bet they could get the Magic council to drop a shield over the wreckage and examine it via robots.
I agree with everything you just said :)
But moreover, Cora, and more importantly Irradon, could always negotiate giving earth SAFE technology in exchange for the Fel tech, and as a gesture of goodwill, they could have Dabbler show them EXACTLY how her scanner for Fel radiation works, and how to backwards engineer THAT technology alone.
Which is worse? Giving a caveman a spacegun under controlled conditions, or giving a caveman a spacegun that will turn the caveman into a murderous psychopath? Anyone with the slightest bit of negotiating skill would say the former is the lesser of two evils.
Not to mention, humans already HAVE spaceguns that are better than alien spaceguns – Maxima and Sydney’s orbs. Not to mention whatever Krona is.
[Xevoarchy Police] What’s all this, then? Let me introduce agent Arglebargle of the Xevoarchy Environmental Protection Agency. Agent?
[Agent Arg] Right then. I’m declaring this site a Superfund Toxic Waste Site.
[President] Let me introduce you to Maxima. She’s one of our soldiers. She took down the Fel ship with one blast. It took about 20 seconds. Also we have been made aware that for millenia, apparently, you have been taking humans off of our planet, and also have been visiting our planet and acting in place of our gods. This irks us somewhat.
[Deus comes in] Oh by the way I just came up with some technology completely on my own that will allow us to have interstellar travel, which I will be allowing the US to use in exchange for the first planet we find that can support human life, since I’ve always wanted to own a planet. And I’ll let Archon have use of that tech to deal with people who are trying to illegally quarantine our planet, which we consider an economic attack on our entire race.
Yeah, we can easily ratchet this out of control. The more the aliens play hardball, the more the humans can play hardball. Or they can be civil and reasonable, and offer a carrot instead of a stick.
You are forgetting one vital piece of information: Dirticans (in general, and USAsians in specifics) don’t even have a fucking softball to play with, they are doing what they do best (and what a lawyer is proficient in): bullshitting and bluffing
Yes, Maxi managed to take down a Fel ship with one blast, because she had surprise on her side and no one knew she could do that, now they do, now they will be prepared, and next time? Next time things will get gold plated to a fucking wall!
Who will be prepared? The space cops? Certainly not the Fel, unless they managed to transmit a warning.
Actually they have 7 softballs to play with:), an Alari spaceship worth of tech, a whole bunch of magic items of unspeakable power, a sky ripper, a bunch of superhumans, a girl who can hack reality itself, entire guilds of mages, and ingenuity. And whatever stuff Zephan’s collected in his travels.
Plus… not sure how they can be ‘prepared’ for Maxima’s blast. Frix said there’s almost nothing in the galaxy that could stand up to that type of concentrated firepower for long. Honestly the only thing that might be able to, aside from the squidwards’ shields, would be Sydney’s shield. Maybe.
Any species that has functional space travel could just start pushing asteroids or even planetoids at Earth from well beyond Maxima’s retaliation range. She’s strong, but she’s not up to fending off multiple space projectiles that are each the size of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs coming in simultaneously from different directions.
Right. Because they let the Alari function unabated, but a pre-FTL planet with access to a Fel ship…. that’s where they’d try to annihilate the planet. After it’s been discovered that this planet might be the Xevoarchy’s best weapon against enemies like The Fel in the first place.
Seems unlikely that they’d do that.
Didn’t mention anything about Maxi’s blast specifically, said they would be prepared for Maxi
Who will be prepared? Everyone in the fucking galaxy watching their local Galaxy News Network about this pre-FTL planet that was able to convincingly halt a Fel attack
No. Everyone watching the local Galaxy News Network would wonder why the Xevoarchy isnt making an alliance with this pre-FTL society capable of destroying one of the Xevoarchy’s more dangerous enemies and a threat to the free galaxy.
They would not be thinking ‘Look at this planet able to EASILY destroy our enemies for us if we ally with them ….. nah, lets kill them instead.”
And yes. we do also have the ability to bluff and BS, as you mentioned :).
Which Batman has used to beat Superman a few times, including in Hush.
Umm. No, we really don’t have the ability to bluff in any way.
Cora could leave us to our own devices.
Archon is likely to keep their personnel away from the Fel ship.
When whomever Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dumber brings in starts mutating then their agency folds like a cheap tent.
Cora is quite able to leave earth to its own inane stupidity.
You literally ignored my other post, to which this was an addendum. Read it please. We have more than the ability to bluff and BS, and I listed several of those advantages.
Problem is, when your bluff and BS is called out, you are putting the entire fucking planet at risk for something you have no rights to
Guesticus, unlike That’s No Moon, you HAVE read my previous post (because you responded to it as well), which was an addendum to this one. The Earth has more in its hand of cards than just bluffing and BS. And I listed some of those cards.
[Agent Arg] Mr president, let me introduce you to the Vogon constructor fleet which can reduce your planet to sub atomic particles, in twenty seconds, from the orbit of Mars
[President] I’m pretty sure that’s faster than the speed of light. So, you can shoot weapons through wormholes? Good to know.
[Agent Arg] [turns off translator] Ϡᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹᵹ₾Ⱡ!!!!! ﬥἄԈδ ΰʥʭᴃ! ỠἏ∑!
And while all of that really incompetent manuevering goes on…people guarding the site become corrupted and mutate into violent things.
Suddenly the incautious government of the United States has a problem it can’t conceal, and is forced to use Arc Swat to fix their ghastly blunder. The public begins to see the space cops as a potential benevolent replacement for the governments of earth.
At this point, I think the doesn’t-start-crap solution might be for Cora and Dabbler to offer a trade of less “corrupt your world” technology in exchange for quarantine and destruction of the Fel ship.
Earth is no longer “in the dark” and the refugee ship in Africa voids any “technology embargo” just by being there at this point.
That’s the obvious solution.
I’m on Suit Guy’s side. Cora can’t reasonably expect us to just give the ship up. It’s doing some sort of weird psychic thing? That’s questionable but fine she can take that part. It’s not like the whole ship is “psychic” She wants the whole damn thing because even the freakin’ TOASTER will boost our planets tech by a century
I think the part that’s giving off the dangerous psychic energy is called “the ship”.
Leave it on Earth Cora. They have declined your assistance and do not accept your explanation of what can or will go wrong. Leave, but maybe stay in orbit to give them the whole “I told you so” when the Fel hit their stride. Stupid Humans. This is why you aren’t invited to their extraterrestrial parties that are literally out of this world.
Didn’t see it mentioned but 777 is the Number of God in Hebrew numerology.
Just thought I should pass that along.
i was going to mention that as well.
Plus it’s hardly the ‘upstairs neighbor’s number of the beast’ :)
That would be 766. :)
You forgot the ‘few doors down’ bit
True :)
The Beast totally lives in a non-euclidean space. You only think that 766 would be above his place because you still believe in that conceit that: “there can be lines that can be parallel”
Okay you got me there. :)
Should the beginning of the last speech bubble start “Or anything…” instead of “For anything…”
No, Sydney is saying if they need her for anything other than impounding Cora’s ship, it’s a direct continuation of the previous bubble
Ah. Now I see. Thank you.
“Whelp, these negotiations are getting no where. Let’s break for lunch people. Grakz for our well dressed gentlemen on the ‘Awesome’ side of the table and an XL bowl of pho for the Archon side.”
You’ll notice I hope, he says ‘For Americans… (blah,blah)’… No mention of mankind, or of
‘The Earth’… Same old same old. American World Police, anyone?
Well, the ship IS in American territory.
If the suit is supposed to be seen as an a-hole, then I think this is a mistake, because DaveB is falling into the trope called “Strawman has a Point.”
Take the movie 2012 for example – it was a horrible movie, but a good example of “Strawman Has a Point.”
Secretary of State Carl Anheuser is supposed to be seen as the bad guy because he’s heartless – he doesn’t let his ailing mother have a spot on the rescue ships, he doesn’t just let on board EVERYONE, he gives first dibs to the people who paid the money to build the ships.
But think of it… Carl Anheuser is actually the only one thinking rationally and fairly the ENTIRE TIME. HE doesnt let his 92 year old mother on the ship because she’s already lived a full life, and that spot could be used for someone who will be NEEDED with vital skills of the 400,000 humans he ha to pick to survive. He doesn’t let EVERYONE on board because the ships will not only not hold everyone, but every additional person means less supplies and rations for everyone else, and if you just let everyone on, everyone dies and humanity as a whole does not survive the catastrope. He lets on the people who paid for the ships first because…. if not for them the ships would NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT AND EVERYONE WOULD HAVE DIED – the promise to let them on was what allowed ANYONE to survive.
Then look at the hero in that movie. He’s an idiot. He gets a useful soldier killed in order to save a dog and a woman who is particularly vapid…. then the woman dies anyway. Congratulations. You got two people killed to save one dog. And the dog would have been saved no matter what you did anyway. So you got two people killed for no reason, main protagonist.
In addition, when he’s on the ark (the ship designed to save 400,000 of humanity (along with animals, artwork, knowledge, technology, etc), he complains that the room he’s in could have housed 10 people (which it couldn’t, actually). But Carl Anheuser says ‘You’re welcome to leave the ark and let someone else on in your place’ – because the ark did not need a writer of a book that sold poorly anyway.
Yeah, Carl Anheuser was the real hero of the movie. If not for that ‘villain,’ humanity would have died off ENTIRELY, all that humanity ever created would have been destroyed and lost forever, and all animals on the planet would have become extinct. Because he was ‘heartless’ (which is a translation for ‘he was the only one who was seeing a big picture involving humanity surviving’).
The suit has a point as well. You have aliens who have now TWICE (as far as they know, and probably many more times) tried to destroy humanity. And at least within this year, both times they have been foiled by human supers. Why on earth would humanity NOT see the need for technology to put them on par with an already multiply observable threat to existence?
Before, Cora was saying ‘You have nothing we want’ – now she sees that Earth does have something aliens would want, beyond just entertainment value even. So she can’t hide behind ‘we have superior tech so you have to just suck it up and deal with being second class citizens in the universe.’ – which seems to be the route being taken.
And if a nuclear bomb is lost is international waters legally anyone could salvage it but if they aren’t able to handle the radiation then they’re going to get in trouble.
Cora’s not disputing their salvage claim (it’s the first thing she says in panel three) she’s telling them how to properly disposed of hazardous waste.
And if you go to some primitive people who salvage the bomb and say ‘that is too behind you, you primitive troglodytes, give it to us, we know how to dispose of it’ and you offer nothing in return other than expecting blind obedience, do not be surprised when the primitive people throw some spears at you.
It’s also a big leap that you’d assume they have no way to deal with it already, especially after you see them do stuff that you yourself cannot do as a superior technological society.
However, if you say ‘this is dangerous. Let us educate you to show you how it is dangerous – and we will get rid of it for you before it hurts your people. And while we’re at it, we will give you SAFE technology to help you, like medicines and ways to produce limitless food and travel to places’ …. then they’ll give you the object they don’t know how to use which would otherwise kill them, and be grateful to you instead.
If you want to make the argument that Cora could have gone about this in a more diplomatic way I’d be right behind you but that wasn’t your opening statement.
I’ve made quite a few arguments. Some of them are about Cora’s style of diplomacy being exceedingly poor. Others are about the perspectives of the suits in universe and why it makes sense to them not to trust the aliens.
But I’m glad that we can at least agree on something. :) Cool.
I would like to dispute the salvage claim. A rough analogy to this situation would be of a certain warship sunk in Pearl Harbour. What would America do if someone came along and attempted to salvage the Arizona? Or any of the other naval war graves from WWII, i.e. Ironbottom Sound off of Guadalcanal, Midway Island, The Coral Sea or Leyte Gulf. All hell would break loose. Admittedly, the Fel may not have the same consideration of their dead that we do but if we dont like that sort of thing happening then what gives us the right to do it to the Fel.
Not the same at all – the Arizona was a US ship, on US soil. A better parallel would be the US salvaging any Japanese craft sunk/downed at Pearl Harbor or other US territory islands later in the war – the US military absolutely would salvage any enemy ship and analyze it. The Japanese may not have liked it and wanted to salvage it themselves, but the US wouldn’t have any reason at all to let them anywhere near it.
Once the war was over, there are of course international agreements for returning POWs or remains. But I’ve never heard of returning materiel – especially not before a peace treaty has been agreed on. Whether this Fel ship was a rogue actor or on an official mission, they attacked US troops and without any other info to go on, they should be appropriately be considered and treated as enemies until they communicate (and ideally demonstrate) otherwise.
No, they only attacked US troops after US troops fired upon them first, they fired upon and attacked Cora and her people and ship
They blew into US airspace, took up position over a US military base, fired on an allied ship parked at said base, and deployed armed ground troops before Archon did anything. At that point it’s kinda irrelevant who fired first* with a handheld weapon – the Fel were actively attacking and that takes diplomacy off the table until short-term survival has been assured.
* probably not the shot you’re thinking of. Nerd.
Not sure what the first time aliens tried to destroy humanity, butt the Fel didn’t give a shit about the Dirticans, they didn’t even attack the dirty Dirticans, they fired upon Cora’s ship, the same ship that was carrying their property
The Dirticans stuck their fist in someone elses business
Yes, well, one side considered some ants “collateral damage” and the other side considered them “weak and helpless.”
The ants turned out to have a fucking particle cannon (two, if you count Sydney), so don’t be surprised when they play hardball. The moment you brought an interstellar war machine to their doorstep… You made it their business.
And they are attempting to clean up their own mess, a mess the Dirticans are not in any way capable of dealing with
Hael, not even the Space Cops are able to ‘deal with it’ other than tossing it into the nearest star, and you expect a bunch of pissing-ants to deal with something they can’t even detect? o_O
In panel two I noticed that in this universe Robert De Niro went into politics instead of acting. I am waiting for the point in the meeting where he asks Cora “You talkin’ to me?” https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TjxuX2-kDjw/maxresdefault.jpg
P.S. In panel two we also see the government guys in front of a wood wall. In panel four we see a glass wall behind them. This meeting room is decidedly non-Euclidean.
I have to agree with people like Pander and Dominic here. The suit guy’s being a bit of an asshole about it… but he’s very much in the right. This is an alien ship that attacked their world. There is no evidence of the corruptive radiation. In fact, it sounds VERY much like the corruptive influence on thetans caused by Space Emperor Xenu. Yes, I’m referencing Scientology there – and so the suits are being quite reasonable in their skepticism. “This radiation that only we can detect is dangerous, so (for your own good of course!) we’ll just take this valuable object off your hands… no need to thank us…”
There are of course other things that Cora could be doing. Like offering to show how their sensory equipment works, and sharing it. Or giving advice on how to safely store/dispose of a giant hazmat wreck. But telling the humans, “Good job destroying that powerful alien threat (which we had nothing to do with, we assure you). Now let us take your prize away while treating you like children who don’t deserve actual evidence beyond “we know best,”” is not the way to handle this situation.
Yes :)
I really have no idea why Dabbler would not simply show them how her scanning tech works, so they can make the tech themselves, if the main problem they’re having is they don’t trust aliens (which is reasonable considering what they just found out, and considering the two alien invasions inside of one year, both stopped by Archon).
Is holding onto the secret of how to detect Fel radiation and the science behind how that works really worth making them have to double down? The suit might be a jerk, but he’s a jerk that makes good points. And Dabbler and Cora, by not sharing the tech which could PROVE the fel tech is dangerous, is not doing anything to engender any sort of trust that they want from the humans in return.
She has shown them the readouts from her scanner, shown them the scanner working, she is just not going to hand them the technology to build their own
That’s like expecting Microsoft to simply hand over their tech for the iPhone because some other company wants to build their own: you don’t need to know how it works to see it working, and the time it would take to train engineers to make their would be counted in the years
Very good point, written much more cleanly than my several (abandoned) attempts to react to Pander’s “rampage”.
Even if Dabbler was willing to make an exception for this one scanner, we are talking about COMPLETELY NEW SCIENCE here. I think years is very optimistic. Decades is more likely. If she’s untrustworthy, it means anything she tells about the science is untrustworthy too and has to be at least verified by independent experiments. That’s how science works. Which could be problematic, because we have no other example of corrupting psychic radiation on earth other than the wreck itself (if we had, I’m sure we’d already have at least some basic knowledge about it’s existence).
I would very much like Core to go “fine, I’m not official representative of any galactic power. It’s not my problem, I was just trying to help you dispose of incredibly dangerous waste. Have fun dealing with it yourself”.
“Very good point, written much more cleanly than my several (abandoned) attempts to react to Pander’s “rampage”.”
Much as I love debating with Guesticus, I wouldnt call what was written a good argument to my ‘rampage.’
Oh god, Pander’s using basic arguments and debating techniques. Run! She’s on a rampage! :) We will all be destroyed by her…. logic and consistency of thought.
Rawr.
“Even if Dabbler was willing to make an exception for this one scanner, we are talking about COMPLETELY NEW SCIENCE here.”
If only there was some super-intelligent scientist who could explain each of the scientific principles which make up her scanner and the science behind how the scanner works. But … she’d have to be the smartest person on the planet to capable of doing that. Oh well. Oh wait, she is. But if only she could explain it in a way that employs the scientific method – the basis of all scientific progress. But she’d have to be an accomplished scientist to do that. Oh wait, she is. It’s a lot easier to explain how something works to someone than when they have to backward engineer it and figure it out from scratch.
“Decades is more likely.”
You are literally just pulling this argument out of thin air.
“That’s how science works.”
No, science works by employing the scientific method and breaking down complex problems into simpler and simpler ones which can then be shown empirically. If she can’t show how the scanner works, when she built the damn thing, then it’s not science.
“because we have no other example of corrupting psychic radiation on earth other than the wreck itself ”
You are literally explaining why the suits are completely reasonable in NOT believing Dabbler or Cora.
“I was just trying to help you dispose of incredibly dangerous waste. Have fun dealing with it yourself”
And they would be ‘Thanks. Don’t let the door hit you on the way off our planet.’
And then others would be wondering why Cora and Dabbler just did not offer advanced not-corrupting technology in exchange for destroying the ship, or offer whatever shielding Cora was using on the FEL ARTIFACT OF UNSPEAKABLE (cuddles) in her ship. Which apparently somehow hasnt corrupted her crew or her ship. Unless you’re saying the FEL ARTIFACT OF UNSPEAKABLE (cuddles) is not Fel Technology, in which case it desperately needs a name-change.
“Rampage” as in “it feels like half of the posts under this page is hers”. And not oneliners either, most are solid walls of text. Pretty good score for someone who claims is not emotionally invested in this :) Sorry, not native english speaker, I may get the fine nuances of words’ meaning wrong sometimes, I hope I didn’t offend you too much.
> “Decades is more likely.”
> You are literally just pulling this argument out of thin air.
No, just my pessimistic guess, just as you pull over-optimistic guess that the untrusted smartest person on the planet can explain the stuff to the second smartest person after herself quick enough to independently verify if the wreck is dangerous or not.
> No, science works by employing the scientific method and breaking down complex problems into simpler and simpler ones which can then be shown empirically. If she can’t show how the scanner works, when she built the damn thing, then it’s not science.
We can agree on this – breaking down complex problems to simpler ones. And lots of experiments to verify our asumptions and theories about the simpler problems, so that the solution to complex problem is built on solid foundations.
How many such simple “break the problem down” steps are needed from our level of technology to psychic radiation? 1? 10? 100? And whetever your answer is, I’d like to know the reason why any in-universe character would think that is the right number.
How long each step takes? Let’s say we can break it down at about one semester at university. Semester is really just really watered down few hours (20-30?), intermixed with something else. You could probably do that explaining in two or three days if you concentrate on single subject. Problem is, you generally trust your UNI professor. You suspect Dabbler has hidden agenda -> you need to experimentally verify her claims. Which needs specialized equipment. Even a month per each missing tech level feels too optimistic.
Before you pull ghostbusters on me – yes, I would kick them out, because they can demonstrate nothing ELSE than blinking lights. If alien shows up who can demonstrate to be able to do things that earth science considers impossible (FTL drive, force-field shields, radiation-eating plushie) or many leagues above our engineering (hand held railgun… antimatter massdriver would probably be here too, except she didn’t exactly demonstrate them), I’d give her dire warning and blinking lights some serious consideration. Context matters.
The bigger point is – there are ways to verify the claims without understanding any of the involved tech, and faster than year-long crash course on psychic tech with Dabbler. Just force a chimp to live in the wreck for a week and see how many limbs it grows. These guys are not open to be convinced, they didn’t offer any way out. They don’t approach it as a scientific problem. “mine” is the only word they see. Or it’s just a diplomatic trick to catch smaller fish and they are just using the wreck and lawyering as a leverage to gain safe tech, as you did mention elsewhere.
Oh god, Pander’s using basic arguments and debating techniques.
Pander is primarily ignoring points counter to the narrative he or she is trying to advance, probably because many of them have no plausible rebuttal.
“Pander is primarily ignoring points counter to the narrative”
Which is it? Am I ignoring points or am I overly verbose (because I actually respond to each and every point made with a very detailed analysis and response). Can’t be both.
“probably because many of them have no plausible rebuttal.”
Have you even read my posts? I mean I know I write a LOT so maybe you didn’t, and that would be understandable, but I’ve shown quite a few VERY plausible rebuttals, but I’ve gotten little to no plauslble arguments in response. Usually just ad hominem attacks, namecalling, strawmanning, or false assertions that I’ve ignored points (when it’s pretty clear from how long my posts are that I have NOT ignored points, even if you don’t like my posts for reasons that do not stand up, which would be why there are so many responses to my posts that are just the aforementioned namecalling, ad hominem attacks, and false assertions).
“And not oneliners either, most are solid walls of text.”
That’s because I’m verbose, not rampaging :). Especially when it comes to arguing legal things in fictional settings. I find it fun, since I know of what I argue in legal disputes.
“Pretty good score for someone who claims is not emotionally invested in this :)”
It’s literally my job to argue :) I’d be a nervous wreck 24/7 if I was emotionally invested every time I argued that, say, someone violated my client’s patent or infringed upon his or her copyright. Especially not when I’m arguing the legalities of a fictional setting :) Don’t mistake my wordiness for anger.
“Sorry, not native english speaker, I may get the fine nuances of words’ meaning wrong sometimes, I hope I didn’t offend you too much.”
No problem, and no, I’m not offended. And your english is really good for a non-english speaker. Major props to you. I can barely speak the other languages I learned – I definitely could not make long arguments in a language other than English.
“No, just my pessimistic guess, just as you pull over-optimistic guess that the untrusted smartest person on the planet can explain the stuff to the second smartest person after herself quick enough to independently verify if the wreck is dangerous or not.”
If she is really smart (which she is), then she can dumb it down enough to show them the basics. Or she can at least TRY. She just summarily refuses to even try so far. Which is sort of my point. :)
“We can agree on this – breaking down complex problems to simpler ones.”
Cool, we have some agreement :) That’s a great start.
“How many such simple “break the problem down” steps are needed from our level of technology to psychic radiation? 1? 10? 100? And whetever your answer is, I’d like to know the reason why any in-universe character would think that is the right number.”
I wouldnt know, because Dabbler has not even tried. And isnt that the point? She hasnt even TRIED to explain it. She REFUSES to explain it. And not because ‘it is too complex to explain’ – it’s because she does not want to. Because ‘her technology is hers alone.’ Which makes it really hard to TRUST what her technology is saying when there’s another reasoning the suits see – that they do not want humans to balance the current power imbalance, or they want it for themselves. Both reasonable assumptions for the suits, based on the fact IN UNIVERSE.
“Before you pull ghostbusters on me – yes, I would kick them out, because they can demonstrate nothing ELSE than blinking lights. If alien shows up who can demonstrate to be able to do things that earth science considers impossible”
So if I come there and I also show you that I have a PhD from MIT (which I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t also have), and if I show you that I can build an explosive from common household materials like MacGuyver, but still refuse to show you how the device works, then you’ll let me blow up your house because I showed you a device with blinking lights and refuse to show you how it works BEFORE blowing up your house, when I’m rambling on about demonic spirits and ectoplasm?
Be honest, would you then? If I show you simply that I’m smarter than you, without my showing you my actual data and how I came to that data, would you then let me do whatever I want and blindly trust me, no matter what I want to do?
“The bigger point is – there are ways to verify the claims without understanding any of the involved tech, and faster than year-long crash course on psychic tech with Dabbler.”
They havent made that argument, have they? They just said they want to TAKE the Fel ship and chuck it into the sun. Also… can anyone explain how Cora can have Fel Tech on HER ship, yet her ship and her crew are not infected by Fel evil psychic radiation? Because I think if the suits knew about the Fel Artifact of Unspeakable (cuddles), that might be another question they ask about Cora’s credibility.
“She has shown them the readouts from her scanner, shown them the scanner working, she is just not going to hand them the technology to build their own.”
She has not shown HOW THE SCANNER WORKS. That makes the scanner lack any credibility. She also has not explained the science behind it. She’s basically waved what might as well be a toy in their face, without showing anything that would verify that it’s real. It’s like the prosecution introducing a letter of admission of guilt into evidence in a court case, but not showing any sort of proof that the letter was written by the defendant.
“That’s like expecting Microsoft to simply hand over their tech for the iPhone because some other company wants to build their own: you don’t need to know how it works to see it working, and the time it would take to train engineers to make their would be counted in the years”
Hate to tell you this Guesticus, but in order to get a patent, you DO have to explain exactly how the technology works. :) With schematics, the science behind it, and everything. In fact, even with trade secrets, there are usually government agencies which need to be told what’s in the ingredients (case in point, Coca Cola’s ‘secret ingredient’ – the government actually needed to know what was in it, and Coca Cola had to tell them).
Unless they’re just playing ‘good lawyer, bad lawyer‘ to anchor the negotiation as aggressively as possible towards keeping everything they possibly can, instead of just letting Archon keep 100% of whatever the aliens allow. The armed forces have a bit of a rivalry going, and I doubt any other branch has a lot of trust for them yet.
Given that all of the Archon brass and the alien rep are on the same side of the table as Cora, I suspect they’re more or less in agreement with her, or at least trust her judgement. Anyone who hasn’t been read in on the Veil and everything it covers would have none of that context, and have no reason to trust a competing branch who appears to be making a very poor choice.
He is not in the right, he is acting in accordance with human law. The right thing would be to listen to older and wiser heads and destroy the wreck. If you’re going to act like a child, be prepared to get treated like one.
Maybe Cora should let them have it, and when they’ve all been taken over by the Fel hivemind, help the rest of the world glass over our once great country, sacrificed to the knowledge that we were in the right.
(Wow, what a hot button this one is. Good work, DaveB.)
Myk – You are assuming that the view he is expressing is his sole motivation, and that his end goal is exactly as blunt as it seems to be. I doubt you’ve been in very many powerful negotiations like this. If this guy has earned his role in the human spy hierarchy, then he’s negotiating for the best gain he can get for the US and, to a lesser degree, humanity. That means (1) establish the best claim you can (2) trade it for the best gain you can get.
Then (3) Dave interrupts the deal handshake with either a Fel corruption assault or an Intergalactic Police arrival. Because Rule of Cool.
Let’s be honest, I doubt that anyone has been in a negotiation as powerful as this one, so your comment is disingenuous. I had been a shop steward for about 12 years and I sat in on some powerful enough negotiations to recognize an arrogant stance when I see one, and that stuffed shirt with the cliched red tie had it in spades. His disputable time in service as a spy has no bearing on his right to press a claim.
But, as you say, there is always Dave to bring the rain.
No, he’s not acting in accordance with human or even United States law.
Archon has authority in these matters, although the charter needs to be amended to state alien inclusion succinctly.
Faulk appears to answer to the president directly, not through some civilian intermediaries from some think tank.
I’m enjoying the debate too :) Except the occasional namecalling and ad hominem attacks, but it’s the internet. It comes with the setting. But still, this comment forum has a lot less of that than most other places on the net. So that’s something to be proud of. :)
No evidence?
I suggest that you go take a look at the wessel in question.
“We want this.”
“This will horrifically mutate you and your entire race if you touch it.”
“We demand you give this to us.”
****
God, It’s like watching the people who wanted to study The Marker in Dead Space all over again.
This. There are so many comments telling Cora to basically give the earth free technology or shut up and get out, when shes trying to SAVE THEM FROM FROM CREEPY MIND ENSLAVING tech.
I mean honestly, shes trying to do humanity a favor by removing a direct and imminent threat and of course as humans we want to somehow profit from this or quibble over the details while we play with forces we don’t understand.
Honestly.
That assumes two things not in evidence.
That Cora is being Honest.
And that Earth doesn’t have a way to counter Psychic Effects.
They have no reason to doubt Cora’s word on this and lots of evidence to trust her (not counting things only the audience knows).
What evidence? She’s shown the following evidence so far.
Aliens have been taking humans off planet for millenia.
Aliens have been coming to this planet for millenia without our permission.
Aliens lied to us about their existence while one was a civilian consultant for a new military branch of the government.
Aliens have access to technology which could kill millions of humans easily, if not for that new military branch… which one of the aliens has access to.
We do not trust that alien (Dabbler) so we have someone in Ark-Dark always following her around.
We just got access to technology which could put us on par with the aliens, and they want it and are claiming it’s dangerous, despite how our scanners say it’s not, and their scanners say it is, but they won’t let us see how their scanners work because they do not trust us to look at their precious technology.
Aliens are intimidated by the fact that a small handful of our supers was able to repel not one, but two separate alien invasions.
Aliens give us no benefit of the doubt, when we’ve been helping alien refugees the first time we ever knew en-masse that aliens existed.
Alien said ‘you have nothing we want’ in a press conference, then when we shoot down the ship, we have something they want but they will not give us anything for it.
Yeah, Cora’s word doesnt mean a whole lot to anyone beyond Sydney (who directly has gotten help from Cora) and Dabbler (who is herself an alien and not even trusted by Archon enough to be without a handler).
Without disputing your points on trustworthiness, I’d still like to mention something that’s been bugging me in this discussion: “aliens” being referred to as though they’re a single homogenous group. Accusing all aliens of all these things is, logically, more absurd than blaming all Earthlings for the crimes of Plasmodium falciparum (the bacteria that causes malaria) simply because we happen to be on the same planet.
That’s a fair point, about aliensbeing refrred to as they’re a homogenous group when they are obviously not.
But I’m meaning aliens in the idea of ‘aliens who are part of the Xevoarchy’ primarily when I’m talking about aliens, and the aliens who have been directly in conflict with Earth (which are only the Alari and the Fel so far). So that’s how I put them in a group – the Xevoarchy is a loosely amalgamated ‘group.’ More about the political association than the actual species.
“Aliens are intimidated by the fact that a small handful of our supers was able to repel not one, but two separate alien invasions.”
Not actually true. Cora was just impressed.
I’m fairly sure that at least two of Cora’s crew were impressed, with Max posing between them https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-769-incoming-eventually/
Them plus Cora makes “aliens”
No, I think when she yelled ‘HOLY OVARIES!’ as Maxima let forth a blast more powerful than most Capitol Ships were capable of doing, she was at least A LITTLE intimidated by the notion that Maxima was able to do that with just her superhuman powers. Although she was definitely VERY impressed after the initial shock wore off.
Sure if you want to twist everything into the worst possible light, but we’re talking legal and diplomatic matters here not writing headlines for the Daily Mail.
If you actually listen to what she said and how she said it none of those things are reasons to distrust her and Dabbler’s assessment of the situation.
What she said was ‘dangerous psychic evil radiation which you cannot detect will turn you into mindless killers.’ Then showed blinking lights on a machine and refused to show how the machine works to detect this magic radiation, or the science behind how the radiation can be detected at all, or the science behind how the scanner works in any detail whatsoever.
When talking about the legality and admissibility of scientific evidence, the first thing you NEED to prove is the credibility of the scientific processes being used. They (Dabbler and Cora) refuse to do that. That is reason for the suits to distrust her assessment of the situation.
She wants humanity to trust her. When she does not trust humanity in return.
She also thought the Fel would be a danger to humanity. And 5 seconds later, a small handful of humanity destroyed an entire Fel invasion force and a battlecruiser in under a few minutes. Plus she knows that at least one example of humanity has tech which makes all alien technology look like stone knives and bearskins in comparison, but she has not used it for horrible purposes, and is in fact a very kind person who keeps trying to help people, including the Alari refugees.
So maybe she should trust humanity a bit more than she does.
Except this conversation is clearly taking place long enough after the fight that Max has had time to get into uniform, so Cora’s had some time to discuss things with Archon brass. Plus she’s friends with Dabbler, who has been on Dirt for a least a few months working with them, and definitely had time for a quick chat with her. And possibly Irradon.
I can’t imagine Dabbler or Max arguing that humanity is in any way ready to responsibly deal with Fel tech.
“I can’t imagine Dabbler or Max arguing that humanity is in any way ready to responsibly deal with Fel tech.”
Oh I definitely think that Maxima can argue that humanity is capable of handling very dangerous weaponry. Look at herself. She could be taking over the planet but instead she’s being a hero. And Maxima is a human. A superhuman, but a human. Which means that humans are capable of acting responsibly, even when they have great and destructive power at their fingertips. Or look at Sydney. She’s wildly irresponsible, has ADHD, is very compulsive, a bit crazy, has massively dangerous and destructive and advanced power at her fingertips… but she’s a good person. Or Krona…. who can HACK THE UNIVERSE… but she’s a good person. Honestly the more you look at the supers, the more you have to admit that humans are overall pretty decent when they have access to dangerous stuff. At least as much as other alien races.
“Plus she’s friends with Dabbler”
I wouldnt say Maxima is friends with Dabbler – she tolerates Dabbler. Barely. Very barely. And as far as Irradon, that’s diplomatic, because she’s representing the United States when dealing with him, as a member of the Council. And Maxima does NOT get along with some members of the council even, except for Ingsol, with whom she does seem to be on a friendly basis.
N-I-C-E E-A-R-S
I meant Cora’s long-time friendship with Dabbler would be strained, not Max’s couple-of-months frenemy relationship. Cora’s had time to discuss the tech capability of humanity in general, and Archon in particular.
As for responsibility, sure Max is tough and can handle some omega-level weaponry, but she’s also responsible. The choices Max can recommend right now are let Cora dispose of it, or keep it and depend on a handful of consultants she doesn’t really know that well (Dabbler, Krona) liaise with a few ArcDark Dirt-magic specialists to protect the entire human race from an unknown alien energy. And the in-house consultant appears to be backing Cora’s “kill-it-with-fire” recommendation.
Sure, Dabbler has a potential conflict of interest since Cora’s her friend, but even before the fight started Dabbler was confirming the statement that the Fel were bad news based on exotic energy. That’s pretty hard to dismiss – if Cora & Dabbs wanted to capture a Fel ship, they could’ve done it elsewhere.
“the choices Max can recommend right now are let Cora dispose of it, or keep it and depend on a handful of consultants she doesn’t really know that well (Dabbler, Krona) liaise with a few ArcDark Dirt-magic specialists to protect the entire human race from an unknown alien energy.”
I think there could be more choices than that, especially considering that Cora seems to have Fel technology on her ship, yet her crew is not corrupted. Maybe she could find out why that is? :)
And, assuming the Fel ship IS producing evil waves of radiation and she actually is convinced that the risk outweighs the reward, have we forgotten the Black Reliquary? Humans do have access to quite a bit of examples of ‘dangerous tech’ and possibly ways to deal with it. Heck, worst case scenario, they know a geokinetic who could put the fel tech in ‘safe keeping several thousand feet below the surface of the earth until they figure out what to do with it.
“And the in-house consultant appears to be backing Cora’s “kill-it-with-fire” recommendation.”
But again, Maxima does NOT blindly trust Dabbler, and neither does any of Archon. Hence why X is always around. And like you accurately point out, Dabbler has a conflict of interest that the suits justifiably bring up, since Cora is her friend. And while the Fel were bad news, admittedly, the Fel are also dead now. And it’s clear from Cora and Dabbler’s description of the Fel that ‘capturing a Fel ship is NOT an easy task.’ Cora was, in fact, AVOIDING the Fel which is why it took her so long to get to the Alari planet where Sydney was trapped.
Cora did tell Max the Fel were after an artifact on her ship; presumably Max would have passed that on, or at least wouldn’t deliberately withhold it.
As for the other options you mention, i.e. keeping the kryptonite in a lead safe, those are actually pretty good options if they keep the ship (and associated debris field). But Archon would still have to rely on outsider, non-government-vetted specialists to manage it, so that doesn’t really change the fact that Max (or Gen. Faulkner really) doesn’t currently have a known, reliable, and completely trusted way to deal with it.
Best case for keeping it is to bring Cora on as a
regular characterconsultant like Dabbler, with some stygian-shielded Archon Dirtlings and a handler to monitor their work.“Best case for keeping it is to bring Cora on as a regular character consultant like Dabbler, with some stygian-shielded Archon Dirtlings and a handler to monitor their work.”
That would actually be a very intelligent solution to the problem.
At this point, Cora should throw them a bone
Give them something rather advanced, like a jump core in exchange for putting the Fel object in the sun.
It will still take a long time to retro engineer the tech.
So she should pay them for the privilege of saving their asses? Personally if they are going to be this big a dick about it, I’d say just leave and go warn the proper authorities so when we inevitably went all corrupted hive monstrosity the galactic community could react quickly enough to deal with the problem and tell any survivors “so what have we learned?”
Pretending we are even prepared to understand the dangers of such an undertaking is an act of unbearable hubris. Cora is trying to save us from toxic waste, but we want to play in it and everyone acting like shes being the unreasonable one.
Except the possibility of superheroes corrupted by the Fel is too dangerous to allow.
Which would you prefer?
Choice A) Give the humans safe technology and explain how they use it in such a way that they won’t be a danger to others.
Choice B) Don’t give them anything, let them get corrupted by Fel Technology because you were too stubborn to throw them a freaking bone and expected them to just do whatever you say, then watch in horror as the new Super-Fel start invading the universe, and think to yourself ‘I wonder if there was anything I could have done to prevent this from happening.’
Also, the people who have been acting hubristic? Cora “You have nothing we need” Zylstra. Xuriel Shahara “I don’t share my tech but expect you to trust me that the scan is accurate” Tantalis (aka Dabbler).
So you’re saying that the Lawyer guy is in the right because holding all the population of Earth (and possibly the galaxy if Maxima and Sydney can be corrupted) hostage is a good negotiating tactic?
Maybe for a one-off interaction it would get what you want at that moment but nobody would ever want to make deals with Earth again.
“So you’re saying that the Lawyer guy is in the right”
I’m saying the lawyer guy (who might not be a lawyer guy, he is more likely from the President’s administration or an intelligence agency that is operating under the auspices of POTUS) is right because there is no reason to believe that the Earth is in danger from the Fel Tech until Cora and Dabbler can actually prove how the scanner works and that stygian radiation is REAL.
Which he has no reason to believe unless he just chooses ‘blindly trusting people’ which is always a TERRIBLE negotiating strategy.
Choice C) Knowing that Archon is more rational than the idiots who want to play with a plague ship, and will quarantine their people away from it…allow the stinky dirt monkeys to lose a small number of monkeys to a small hive. Since they so badly want to have something their fellow monkeys don’t have…wait for them to ask for help while the infestation is still small.
Dirt monkeys are not advaced enough to learn about stoves until they burn their hands.
The best way to help them is to let them burn their hands slightly.
Who is saving who again?
The Fel would not have even shown up on Earth if Cora weren’t there with an artifact they wanted, which was confirmed by DaveB himself, who said they were after her, not Sydney. Cora did not save Earth from the Fel, Archon saved Earth AND Cora, her crew, the Alari refugees and her personal property (her ship) from the Fel in a few minutes – without Sydney’s help.
Just because you like Cora, Dabbler, and all the other aliens, don’t let it blind you to the facts, especially when you have knowledge of their behavior and personalities that the government (outside of possibly Archon) does not have at this point. Both Dabbler and Cora could very well be telling the truth about the dangerous nature of the Fel ship, I assume they are based on the way DaveB has presented his characters up to this point, but they have to do better than, “because I said so”, if they want people who don’t know them personally to accept their answer. Blind trust would be foolhardy and unrealistic here, and I’m betting DaveB will show this on the next page (or five).
And Cora (and the Fel artefact) would not be on Dirt if she wasn’t doing Dabbles a personal favour on behalf of Maxi to retrieve a stranded cadet (rookie? whatever the fuck Sydney is) on an alien planet
Do you mean the Fel Artifact which has somehow not corrupted Cora’s ship and crew and Alari, despite it having been on her ship for at least DAYS?
Almost like she has some way to contain the stygian radiation from fel tech, if the suits were to assume stygian radiation exists.
Quote Ben: At this point, Cora should throw them a bone
At this point? No. Suits McAsshole worked very hard to turn a potential partner into an enemy.
He may be right, maybe he’s even in the right, but he’s acting like a spoiled asshole.
If you want something, find a way to cause the other side to want to help you.
What he does is making sure that Cora has absolutely NO reason at all to help him in any way.
He could have went along the lines of “Hey, we can’t trust your tech without more evidence. I have to justify myself before others, so I can’t even say ‘I trust her’. Give me something to work with.”
But, I realize, this attitude would make him look “weak”, so of course he must not go with it, and be “manly” instead, showing his (non-existant) strength by angering someone who at least acts as if they want to help.
Which would you prefer?
Choice A) Give the humans safe technology and explain how they use it in such a way that they won’t be a danger to others.
Choice B) Don’t give them anything, let them get corrupted by Fel Technology because you were too stubborn to throw them a freaking bone and expected them to just do whatever you say, then watch in horror as the new Super-Fel start invading the universe, and think to yourself ‘I wonder if there was anything I could have done to prevent this from happening.’
Also, the people who have been acting hubristic? Cora “You have nothing we need” Zylstra. Xuriel Shahara “I don’t share my tech but expect you to trust me that the scan is accurate, right after I finished lying to you about not being an alien” Tantalis (aka Dabbler).
Umm, the only people Dabbles lied to about her origin, are the people who didn’t need to know
Archon knew all about Dabbles
How about Choice C) Dispose of the Fel ship the only way it should be, and still give the Dirticans nothing
Why do you feel the only valid option is to give them advanced technology they don’t fucking deserve or have the right to?
“Umm, the only people Dabbles lied to about her origin, are the people who didn’t need to know
Archon knew all about Dabbles”
The only people Dabbler lied to about her origin was…. almost the entire human population of the planet. :)
“How about Choice C) Dispose of the Fel ship the only way it should be, and still give the Dirticans nothing”
How about no? :) Unless you think they’re just going to LET them do it without being convinced otherwise – and the best way to convince them is to give them something worth the loss of the Fel technology. If you say ‘we’re going to give you nothing AND take your ship’ then you back them into a corner where you’re trying to steal from the humans, and the humans WILL fight back, and the threat of ‘we will impound your ship’ will become a reality instead. And if you think that Maxima and Archon will take up arms against the US government, then I think you’re wrong. :)
“Why do you feel the only valid option is to give them advanced technology they don’t fucking deserve or have the right to?”
Because the Fel ship was shot down by American soldiers, when it attacked in American airspace, and crashed on American soil that was directly owned by the American government. Which makes it American property under every conceivable interpretation of international salvage law. That means humans both deserve and have a legal right to it.
And Cora wants to take it. She can try to convince them, but she hasnt been able to because she’s just saying ‘trust me’ and not giving any credible reason to do so, since she won’t show how the scanner that detects it as ‘dangerous’ works (even though she has Fel technology on HER ship as well, and isnt corrupted by it). Which is why the suits do not trust her statement.
So the alternate approach is ‘give them something which will make them more amenable to giving up the Fel technology. Give them a DIFFERENT technology which is not going to turn them into a Fel hive (according to Cora and Dabbler) if you care so much about their safety.
Not sure how you feel they don’t have a right to advanced technology in SOME scenario here, whether it’s Fel technology from salvage, or technology from Cora or Dabbler as a means of trade FOR the Fel technology.
Cut to Deus reading near real time notes on this meeting.
Turns to his bodyguard. “Fel Radiation real?”
She shivers, “Unless you like being turned into a battlemushroom, then yes.”
Deus ponders for a moment.
“We’re not near ready to make our announcements…but we need to bend someone’s ear. Is Harem about?”
“You’re going to burn her if you use her like that.”
“We have others.” Smiles. “I haven’t told you about them…yet.”
—
Also Cora should mention that there is likely an outstanding bounty on destroying a fel battle carrier and invasion force- paid by the combined forces fighting the fel. (probably reason they have that artifact in first place)
Big credit balance paid out…given right to buy up tech of certain levels in exchange for proper destruction of said corrupting influence.
You’d think Sydney- had she heard more would have clued into this. Plenty of examples in comic books and sci-fi books about this would offer that in parting. Maybe it will hit her when she’s at the comic book store and she’ll try phone call – can’t get past operator so she sends the lightbee to explain things to someone who can bend an ear at that meeting.
Of course it will happen when the meeting takes a break to let tempers cool or get food. Bathroom breaks.
Sydney will find General Faulk while he’s taking a pee and explain things to him. Surprising him at the wrong moment.
We will see him in a different uniform (pants at least) when meeting resumes… and he offers a solution that would satisfy both parties.
Including selected humans going to space college. (though their wanting to return after would be totally up to them.)
No need to burn Harem. Deus, being Deus, probably owns enough politicians outright to ensure no meaningful legislation that could interfere with his endeavors ever passes. A few phone calls, and the US Govt will ‘reassess its position in the light of new information’.
Yes, because Deus (manliest man to ever man) never bothers dealing with dangerous technology and artifacts, or alien tech.
Definitely has never happened in the comic. Nope. Not a once.
(sarcasm meters are off the scale, captain!)
I feel like they should point out “and if it stay here long enough. ALl of your supers will become Fel and who can stop that?” At that point it becomes an Arc and UN matter not just US.
which brings in all the red tape
During which time. Dabbler can basically “shield” it off and “lose” it
Great argument
If they believed the fel energy is real
“The woman who downed that ship is right beside you!”
“And likely to side with me because she’s got more than rocks in her head and is sworn to protect your nation from threats both external and domestic. Right now your stupidity qualifies as a domestic existential threat!”
Cora should ask to be paid to “save” them
http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=2857
But seriously someone call Krona and ask her to simply shut off the corrupting radiation .
Yes, because that is likely to have no adverse effects on krona at all right? Just like all the people they sent into the Japanese reactor to shut down the reactor right? Radiation from that did nothing to them too :P
Lets not expose the person that can edit reality on a whim to corrupting radiation please.
Given the wreckage has been sitting around for at least a couple hours at this point it’s rather obviously a long term effect, which means it would be perfectly safe for Korna to go and do her thing.
Of course, if they wanted to be doubly safe they could have Sydney put a shield around Krona while she works since Sydney’s shield is already proven to block psychic energies.
To the writer, you’re siting the wrong rules here. Back at the start of the space program, the US government drafted a law that all extraterrestrial objects or beings that land in the US are property of the US government and any interactions with said objects could be punishable by law. Basically it was a way to give them cart blanche to collect any asteroids and the like without having to worry about ownership based on where they landed. This does also technically mean that the US government, at least under its own law, owns the fel ship, kora’s ship AND cora’s crew. The one exception may be cora herself seeing as she is actually human (so human rights would apply, where as the same wouldn’t be said for her crew since the human’s rights act does specify humans).
So, the US government drafted a law that gave them ownership of extra-terrestrial beings? o_O
Yeah, somehow, doubt that that part is true
It would be pretty easy to take ownership of them. Slavery is actually legal in America if it’s a criminal (which is why southern states use forced prison labor), all of Cora’s crew isn’t even human, and we probably have more in common with a chimp than we do with Cora.
Cora is (part) human
And yes, enslave the well respected intergalactic captain
See how that works when word gets out.
Am I the only one who thinks sydney looks weird without her glasses on? also, nice to see sydny wearing the same shirt from the prologue again. it’s been awhile.
edit: I see them now. they blended in for some reason.
second edit: apparently I was also wrong about the shirt. would delete comments, but can’t.
She’s heading to a shift at the comic shop. Of course she’s wearing her own merch.
Depending on her level of loyalty, Maxima would side with the government and do its bidding.
Really though, I’d think this could be either settled by Sydney’s Commball detecting SOMETHING eminating from the wreackage or certain members from the twilight council with more mystical skills in the psychic department but loyalty to the U.S. (or a pay pack) that they can better trust.
I’m firmly on the “this guy’s an idiot” side of the argument. Setting entirely aside the fact that from a narrative perspective we can reasonably conclude that Cora’s being honest and this guy’s just being…well Senator Kinsey (Stargate SG-1), he’s still being a shortsighted buffoon.
Aside from the fact that he’s completely dismissing a knowledgeable government employee with naturalized citizenship on the grounds that she’s an alien by birth and friends with Cora, he’s trying to bully a representative of the galactic community in the interest of quickly joining that community. And his plan to join that community entails trying to reverse engineer tech that they claim is inherently corruptive and requires rapid incineration, thereby making reverse engineering downright counterproductive towards the goal of galactic acceptance. Furthermore, his rhetoric reinforces the concerns Cora elaborated on as reasons why the galactic community was unlikely to share tech with them. “A chance for AMERICANS”, he says. Check off the box for “interested in national rather than world interests”. Invoking Maxima as a threat? Check off the violent and shortsighted box.
And even without all that, simple game theory makes this very much not worth it. Let’s set that up for a moment. Two concepts: Cora’s honesty and the capacity to actually adapt the technology in a reasonable timeframe.
Cora Honest, Technology Adaptable: Earth gets into space using tech that paints a target on their back, but basically becomes mindless hellspawn in the process. Galactic community will kill them on sight and that will be a mercy
Cora Honest, Technology Unadaptable: Earth is still stuck but becomes mindless hellspawn in the process.
Cora Lying, Technology Adaptable: Earth gets into space using tech maybe that paints a target on their back, before passing the great filters. Intergalactic community wants nothing to do with them for at least one of those reasons.
Cora Lying, Technology Unadaptable: Fought to keep a giant paperweight on American soil.
As an added ‘bonus’, in the last scenario it’s also entirely possible that in trying to pursue a technological path they can’t replicate, they blind themselves to the tech paths that earth could have actually used.
And those are all the ‘win’ conditions of “we keep the tech vs. we let Cora incinerate it”. The best case scenario still makes earth (or rather, America) a galactic pariah. So the smartest strategy is letting the tech be destroyed.
You are falling for a false dichotomy.
How about the most likely scenario –
Cora (Mostly) Honest,
Willing to trade Adaptable baubles
for Unadaptable technology (which also has some value to her).
Move ship off planet place volunteers (think suicide squad ) on ship and have enough reliable devices on board near by to destroy ship/other.
The Earth (or at least USA) is about to have to play hard ball on galactic level, the only thing cora has backing her story up is.. a speech on how great earth porn is and an alien that lied to the world about her origin on live tv.
The twilight council can take a sniff at it as well as magic/tech is there specialty.
Yep. Cora said aliens would not invade, right before aliens invaded. Sort of kills her credibility.
What a dumbass, he should obviously request a trade for harmless technology for the ship. Aliens don’t want this dangerous technology being left here, and humans want advanced technology. The trade is obvious and I don’t see why they don’t try for that.
He should probably ask for the cure for all human diseases or something :)
Or at least some of the really bad ones, like cancer.
Or a cure for lawyers
Well, they could always do what that planet in Justice league did.
“We solved our Lawyer problem a long time ago. If you fail, you will share his sentence” “That’s Crazy!” “No, that’s how we solved our lawyer problem.”
That’s a solution to defense attorneys.
For prosecutors, “If you will fail, you will pay the price he would have.”
And, what about divorce attorneys?
I would actually be fine with getting rid of divorce attorneys. :)
I’ve met too many of them and every single one I’ve ever met was just an awful person. Most defense attorneys though, especially the public defenders, that I’ve met are massively overworked ‘true believers.’ Which they’d have to be for the really poor salaries they get compared to what private practice gets.
Everyone likes to dig on private practice defense attorneys… until they need one. :)
PS – I’ve never been a defense attorney (although I did once do a per diem for an arraignment when I was just out of law school) or a divorce attorney (I’d -never- be a divorce attorney). Just worked in the DA’s office and in general litigation then private practice in intellectual property (and occasionally other fields, but usually just as a per diem or for depositions or interrogatories in pre-trial).
Oh hush Guesticus. We both know you love arguing with me.
Cora: “F**k, we don’t want it either. Maxima is more than welcome to sit on my bridge and watch as we destroy this pit of mind aids.”
The real reason they don’t want Terrans to get their hands on tech:
The United Federation of “Hold My Beer”
You know that’s taken from a category called ‘Humans are Awesome’ right? :)
To quote my favorite post from the Humans are Awesome Star Trek section:
Lets talk about the Pegasus, THE USS F**KING PEGASUS, testbed for the first Starfleet cloaking device. Here we have a handful of humans working in secret to develop a cloaking device in violation of a treaty with the Romulans. They’re playing catchup trying to develop a technology other species have had for a century and what do they do? Do they decide to duplicate a Romulan cloaking device precisely, just to see if they can match what other species have? Nope. They decide, “Hey, while we’re at it, while we’re building our VERY FIRST ONE OF THESE THINGS, just to find out if it is possible, LETS SEE IF WE CAN MAKE THIS THING PHASE US OUT OF NORMAL SPACE SO WE CAN FLY THROUGH PLANETS WHILE WE’RE INVISIBLE!
“B-but why?” says the one Vulcan in the room.
“Because that would F**KING RULE!” said the humans, high-fiving each other and slamming cans of 24th century Red Bull.
There must be like twenty different counselling groups for non-human engineering students at Starfleet Academy, and every week in every single one of them, someone walks in and starts up a story like “Our assignment was to repair a phase emitter and my one human classmate built a chronometric-flux toaster that toasts bread after you’ve eaten it.”
Btw I just want to mention when I’m making my arguments, I’m doing so as a devil’s advocate sort of way, because the suit guy does have a point to what he’s saying. I’m not emotionally attached to any of this :).
Just want to make that clear. I’m a lawyer. I argue about stuff for a living. When I was at the DA’s office before I went into private practice to specialize in intellectual property law (patents, trademarks, copyrights), I’ve seen DAs argue in court with a defense attorney, then act friendly with them afterwards, since they … USUALLY… didnt hate each other.
As a reader, we know that Cora’s right. But in the grrlpower universe, as one of them, we would not be able to verify that. And Cora’s negotiating strategy is simply awful. But as she said, she’s not a diplomat. Frankly, she should probably have Irradon do the talking, assuming he’s a diplomat (since he speaks for the alien species at that Council, and I’d assume that means he has at least some negotiating skill).
No we don’t. We know they are consistent, that’s all.
It would also be consistent with Cora’s character to haul the wreck off-planet, take some choice pieces that were pawnable, and throw the REST into the sun.
That would at least be some sort of minor compromise and a place to negotiate, rather than doubling down hardline :)
But Cora does not have to negotiate.
She is trying to prevent humanity from committing suicide by Fel.
If that turns out impossible and she herself gets threatened with death by Maxima,
she can simply leave the planet to its fate, knowing that at least a couple of million humans escaped the doomed homeworld already.
In this entire discussion there is no profit motive for Cora, and thus there is no reason for her to negotiate or deal.
“But Cora does not have to negotiate.”
I’m pretty sure she does have to negotiate.
“She is trying to prevent humanity from committing suicide by Fel.”
All the more reason for her to start actually learning how to negotiate. Which is worse, humanity’s suicide by Fel or giving them some safer alien tech, including the tech for the scanners?
“If that turns out impossible and she herself gets threatened with death by Maxima,
she can simply leave the planet to its fate, knowing that at least a couple of million humans escaped the doomed homeworld already.”
Assuming the humans even believe that once she leaves the planet she wouldnt try to destroy the Fel Ship from orbit, and don’t do that whole ‘impound your ship’ thing. Which in that scenario, with THAT context, would also be a legal order (as impounding is not the same as stealing). Cora (or more likely Irradon) could also suggest putting the Fel tech somewhere far from humanity so that it can be studied by humans in isolation, preferably with help from alien tech that Cora seems to have to prevent her crew from being infected by the ‘Fel Artifact of Unspeakable (Cuddles).’ It’s not like the humans do not know something about safeguarding dangerous items COUGH “Black Reliquary” COUGH. And aliens are also part of the Council, so aliens would know that humans know this is possible as well, including Archon.
“In this entire discussion there is no profit motive for Cora,”
There’s most certainly a profit motive for Cora, in that if Fel Tech was able to infect people like Maxima, Stalwart, Sydney, etc, they could make the Fel a LOT more dangerous.
“and thus there is no reason for her to negotiate or deal.”
If she wants to convince them, then there most certainly is reason for her to negotiate and deal if she actually wants something. Unless you think the human response should always be subservience and blind trust, which I’m going to assume you do NOT think is a good go-to response for humanity vs aliens meetings.
I don’t think the Gov is being an asshole here, they have a legit case of salvage. If Cora and Dabbler were REALLY that keen on them getting rid of it then they should ether let them exam Dabblers scanners to understand what they actually do, or offer salvage of equal value.
WE THE READERS know Cora and Dabbler are right, that because tropes have taught us they are the all knowing all benevolent “GOOD” aliens. All things considered humanity has no reason to trust people they have literally met hours ago.
Lets see how well humanity deals with historic “sex tourism” as shown in comic.
They have examined Dabbles’ scanners to see the readout, what they want is the ability to manufacture their own scanners, again, that’s like demanding Microsoft to hand over their iPhone schematics because they want to build their own phone, or Amatil to hand over their recipe for Coca Cola because you want to brew your own beverage
Microsoft to hand over their iPhone schematics? Reall?
Sure, they’d be fine doing that, just like Netflix happily agreed to a petition to cancel Good Omens, and Amazon reciprocated by agreeing to pull Stranger Things.
Pretty sure Guesticus meant Apple.
And Apple did have to hand over its iphone schematics to the government when they got a patent on the iphone. It’s required, actually, as one of the first steps in getting a patent on a product.
Which is why the recipes for Coke and KFC aren’t trademarked / copyrighted / patented – they’d have to put them in writing in publicly-accessible documents. It’s easier (especially at the international scale) to just keep it locked in a vault and keep a close eye on the dozen people who absolutely have to see it, than to try constantly fighting to suppress duplicated products around the world under wildly varying legal requirements.
Plus the mystic adds a nice PR spin.
Yes, the recipes for Coke and KFC are not patented (copyrights and trademarks are different things from patents – Coke and KFC have a LOT of copyrights and trademarks, actually). But there are ways that the government can force a company to give up a trade secret, and can sometimes seize trade secrets legally (there needs to be a legitimate government interest though sufficient, but the government may not then disclose that trade secret or use it for the benefit of another (Monsanto, 467 US sec. 1012).
SMU Law Review had a good paper on this actually. The pertinent information starts on page 704 of this pdf of the paper.
https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=2418&context=smulr
Thanks for picking the right term out for me – I should know more about IP given that I do software now, but those decisions generally happen above my pat grade, I just build the tools. :)
Interesting legal briefs on trade secrets; I think my favorite line was something like “the right to exclude others is one of the primary benefits of property ownership.” Hadn’t thought about it in those terms, but that’s a pretty concise way of putting it.
I’ve actually done business with one of the companies mentioned, it was intriguing to see how thing have played out for them since the cases cited.
Yeah :) IMHO, Intellectual property is one of the more fun and interesting aspects of law in practice (at least when it isn’t about pharmaceuticals – there is no more boring litigation than pharmaceutical litigation and patent disputes involving pharm).