Grrl Power #777 – Salvage rights
Page 777! It’s the number of the upstairs neighbor of the beast. And a few doors down. Depends on how the building is laid out really.
I’m not absolutely sure who these guys are. For the purposes of the story it doesn’t matter quite yet. Archon has a shit ton of publicity but they’re not a large government agency. They have a lot of sway within their field – basically they get jurisdiction over anything involving superpowers (unless there are weird extenuating circumstances). Aliens should fall under their purview, but for obvious reasons that wasn’t explicitly written into their charter.
That will probably be amended soon, but in the meantime, now that aliens are public knowledge, there are other agencies salivating at the idea of getting their hands on an alien ship with energy weapons, force fields, crazy power sources, you know, the woiks. For instance, every other branch of the military, DARPA, NASA, OSI, Section 31, BPRD, IMF, Fulcrum. You guys get the idea. So these guys could be with just about anyone.
General Faulk! I haven’t draw him in a loooong time. I kept saying he was doing General stuff in Washington, but really I forgot to include him doing stuff around the base.
Speaking of characters we haven’t seen in a while, the guy standing next to Maxima is Irradon, who is the Twilight Council’s alien representative. His being there isn’t a public acknowledgement of the whole supernatural element present on Earth, but he’s stepped in as a sort of interim galactic ambassador.
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Could get nasty. Cora is right, the ship has to go. This could put Maxima in a conflict of interest.
Nah. We’ve already seen Max and Faulk in conference with the Pres and a bunch of foreign prime ministers over just a restaurant rumble. This will get kicked so far upstairs these guys will need a telescope to see it. If the Pres says “no, we’re keeping it” then there might be some heated discussion.
If the President says ‘no, we’re keeping it’ then Max and Faulk will follow his rule, or they’re criminals.
And before anyone says ‘They do not have to follow an illegal order’ – you’re missing one BIG point – it’s not an illegal order. It’s INCREDIBLY legal. This isn’t killing humans. This isnt nuking New York being ordered by some shadowy cabal. This would be the President of the United States, who was duly elected, giving an executive order to the military, of whom he or she (he in this case since at this point in time, Obama was President) is COMMANDER IN CHIEF. If Maxima or Faulk refuse a direct order from the President, they can resign. When they put on the uniform, they are expected to follow all legal orders from their superiors. And if you want to argue it’s illegal, I challenge you to find a law showing that it’s illegal to salvage a ship shot down over american airspace, by american soldiers, which landed on American soil, or to commandeer a ship by someone trying to steal United States property (especially without even offering any sort of fair compensation).
Typically an officer given an order he strongly disagrees with is expected to resign his commission. They could be court marshalled for it but that’s a long hard road and benching a strategic asset like Maxima would be disastrous. It’s an old problem in hero fiction, like “Achilles sitting out the siege of troy in his tent” old. If your super-soldier decides he won’t fight for you your tucked.
I wouldn’t mind seeing this play out with Halo.
I’d like to see her refuse to take an order and resign. She’s just a cadet.
She can most definitely resign, and is free to do so. But then she won’t be allowed to use her orbs to fight criminals. Because was stated, having powers is not illegal, but they will treat vigilantism like the crime it is, powers or no powers.
Benching a powerhouse like Maxima would be bad, but what would be worse is having a powerhouse like Maxima who is NOT constrained in any way by the US government or the law, and just does whatever she wants. Then you basically have a nightmare scenario out of Injustice or The Boys (although with The Boys, their main constraint is their celebrity and the profit motive).
I’m sure the government already knows that nightmare scenario exists. However, they can’t stop being the government just because of the one threat to the whole world.
I’d even argue the only thing that constrains Maxima, is Maxima.
“I’m sure the government already knows that nightmare scenario exists.”
If you really think the government, with all of its layers of bureaucracy, and especially the redundancy in military plans, does not have at least some scenario to contain Maxima if she gets out of hand beyond her good graces, then I think you might be underestimating how much the military plans and expects their first plan, second plan, and third plan to go horribly awry :) Not to mention other government agencies. The CDC even has a scenario for a zombie apocalypse (admittedly it’s meant as a stand-in for any mass catastrophe, under the concept that if you can prepare for a zombie apocalypse, then you can prepare for anything). But the point is…. the military does not like being caught off guard, and the idea of Maxima is a VERY obvious thing which they’d have come up with scenarios to handle if she went rogue. Whether they’re effective or not is up for debate, but I’m quite willing to bet that scenarios EXIST.
Anyway, joking aside, this is actually something that has been brought up FREQUENTLY in comics, whether it’s The Boys, or Watchmen, or DCAU, the whole concept of ‘Who Watches the Watchers’ is a standard trope to which the government would have SOMETHING in place, regardless of whether or not it was effective. But I’ve already come up elsewhere in this comment forum with several scenarios which could be effective. And I havent even brought up the more ruthless scenarios, considering Maxima does have a non-superpowered family and loved ones (in addition to having actual exploitable weaknesses and limitations, even according to Maxima herself).
“I’d even argue the only thing that constrains Maxima, is Maxima.”
It’s a fair enough argument you could make. I just don’t think it’s a particuarly conclusive one. I do think that Maxima’s loyalty to the US government IS something they do rely on, but they would be foolish to not have a backup waiting in the wings, and a backup in case that backup fails. Redundancy is a staple of the government.
“This isn’t killing humans. ”
As big an unproven (indeed, uninvestigated) assumption as has ever been made.
Are you and Guesticus identical twins? Because I gotta tell ya, making a dogmatic assumption like that and then spending days on the forum expounding upon that assertion while refusing to address the underlying false premise is what he is mostly known for.
“As big an unproven (indeed, uninvestigated) assumption as has ever been made.”
You do not START with the assumption that an outlandish claim like ‘stygian evil psychic radiation’ is factual. ASSUMING it is and going instantly to ‘chuck the ship into the sun’ is the big assumption here… and unproven to the humans since, as I’ve said a few dozen times, the aliens won’t show them how the scanning technology works or even TRY to show them how it works and the science behind it so they might actually BELIEVE them.
“Are you and Guesticus identical twins?”
I don’t know. Are you and each of the other people to immediately go to dogmatic attacks twins? Because you both tend to go to these personal attacks when your arguments fail. At least Guesticus only is guilty of the occasional strawmanning when we disagree. He doesn’t do personal attacks, unlike you.
“Because I gotta tell ya, making a dogmatic assumption”
Ummmm my ‘assumption’ is of being skeptical. YOU’RE the one making a dogmatic assumption that the aliens are to be blindly trusted.
“and then spending days on the forum expounding upon that assertion”
So you’re arguing that I simultaneously ignore points, while at the same time I spend days expounding on points with extreme verbose detail? Can’t be both. Btw hint – it’s #2, not #1.
“while refusing to address the underlying false premise is what he is mostly known for.”
I feel like maybe you havent read most of my posts, or just skim them. Which is possible since I write so much. But my point is you have clearly not read my posts because I address almost every argument made, which tends to be the SAME argument, over and over, that the suits should automatically blindly trust Cora because they showed a flashing doohickey and saved one human’s life for her friend Dabbler as a favor. That is a POOR argument, riddled with problems, especailly from an in-univers perspective when they do not have audience meta-knowledge as proof of Cora and Dabbler’s veracity. Which is another thing I’ve said about 20 times to refute the ‘underlying premise’ that is continually repeated.
Dabbler is with Archon because, in her words ‘thin edge of the wedge – you have to be able to fit one before you can fit two.’ Right now, they’re trying to fit 300.
“My oath of enlistment. “”I, Amber L. Thompson, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed … UNLESS ORDERS CONTRADICT MORAL AND LAWFUL DUTY! Only the soldier can define it, according to their conscience.
Please check me on this. How many US soldiers that defied orders were found to be in the right when they went to trial? Last I heard it was zero.
This situation is like if the US government insisted on recovering the body of The Thing despite MacReady’s testimony that the thing would take over the world in a week if it ever infected someone who could escape into the general population.
That is the most perfect way to explain this to people.
The idea of The Thing getting into the general populace is magnitudes more terrifying than a zombie apocalypse. Dear lord… But yeah, good way to explain it.
Except the “Thing” in this case hasn’t shown itself to be especially dangerous, mutable, or infectious, and the “MacReady” in this case refuses to provide any actual evidence to back up their claims and have several reasons to want to be deceptive.
He has shown actual evidence, they just refuse to believe it and want their own device, that will take years to build and train with
They want it?
I say give it to them….
And be ready to slam Pluto into whatever government blacksite they carry it off to.
Definitely looks like Dave is banking “corrupted government agency” as a future plot point.
I’d say “paranoid” more than “corrupt”.
He could be corrupt too, it is just a little too soon to say.
I mean, without knowning what we (the readers) know the guy could have a point. how does he know it isn’t just some kind of scam from Cora. (“Oh, yeah! those gold bars are clearly radioactive. let me take it out of your hands”)
No, if agents are around spaceship debris irradiated with Stygian Energy very long then corrupted was indeed the proper term.
I have a feeling if this goes the way these guys want – we’ll have a District 9 situation – with alien slums starting up around wherever the space-ship is put….
“Fel Hive” is more specific than that.
Someone should just casually ask what they would do if an abandoned ship, say the Yury Dolgorukiy, was found partly submerged but mostly intact and beached in say Puerto la Cruz or say Bayelsa or hey let’s get really crazy and say Keelung. After all it has a 190 mw reactor, never mind that its 96 city killing warheads would be a real game changer for them….
Actually, to be fair, if everyone was smart about it I could see Taiwan useing them to successfully redefine its relationship with China for the better… But the other two ye gods.
That would redefine nothing at all.
Taiwan has been a nuclear power since the early eighties.
At that time, they were testing their nuclear warheads at sea, and it was rattling the mainland. Communist China began to mobilize, and the American President held diplomatic meetings with Taiwan. The detonations stopped and things settled back down to a quiet glowering at each other.
I was stationed in Okinawa at the time, so geographically speaking this was like it was happening on our front lawn. The SR-71s flew mission after mission out of Kadena, and things were pretty tense.
Taiwan didn’t shelve their nuclear arsenal, they were given proven designs in order to get them to stop testing it.
Just because Taiwan is no longer flaunting their nuclear power doesn’t mean that it went away.
…And suddenly the absence of Chinese troops marching across Taiwan makes perfect sense…
This has always been my fear, that one day aliens will visit us and America will look at their tech and be all ‘I want! gimme!’
That fear is perfectly justified, because that’s exactly what would happen. That’s how our species joins the galactic stage. But murdering and studying whatever aliens we discover, and reverse-engineering their stuff.
It’s basically how Larry Niven’s Kzinti got into space, too. They were something like a Bronze Age culture when another species discovered their homeworld, decided that they’d be useful mercenaries, and taught them to use more advanced technology (and genetically modified them to be more like their “heroic” image of themselves…). That other species then became slaves and sometimes also food) for the Kzinti,
Oops!
Um… are we just overlooking that the humans did NOT do that here? They only wanted the technology they got from destroying a ship of warlike aliens that was trying to murder them all.
I shall not summarize what has happened:
Humans looked at Cora’s ship, said ‘Can we have some?’
Cora said no.
Humans said ‘aw:( fine.’
Cora said ‘but you can sell us porn which is the only thing you apes are good for. By the way, I was a human also but my ancestors went to another planet when we were taken by aliens so we get to have cool tech’
Then Fel come to kill us all, we kill them.
Humans say ‘we’re taking this tech, since Cora won’t give any of hers, and we respected that.’
Cora says ‘No, you’re not allowed that tech either, even though it’s not mine to take away from you, you primitive peons. Plus if you try to keep it, other aliens will blast you into smithereens’
Humans say ‘um… you did see where we destroyed the last ship that tried to blast us into smithereens right?’
Cora says ‘Look, my friend who is also an alien says the tech is dangerous to you. Her scanner says so.’
Humans say ‘Can we see how her scanner works?’
Cora says ‘No, you primitive peabrains, that’s our tech. You can’t see it. Trust us, idiots.’
shall not=shall now
And yet, Cora’s not necessarily wrong. Having a perspective on the situation that’s difficult to explain to ‘primitives’ is still a good enough reason to make them angry by keeping them from playing with dangerous tools what could hurt everyone around them.
Yes. She’s not necessarily wrong, and may even be saying what she’s saying out of good intentions, but she’s going about it the completely wrong way. She has no concept of how to negotiate – hopefully Irradon does.
Also the suit guy isnt wrong because he has no reason to trust her, and she’s given absolutely no reason to give her that trust, especially when she doesnt trust humans. Trust isnt given, it’s earned. And so far, not only has Cora been wrong about humans multiple times, she’s trying to take something which she admittedly has no right to take, and is not giving even the one thing which might be convincing to the suits (the knowhow on how to make the scanner that Dabbler has, as well as the science behind how the scanner works, so that they can verify her claims), let alone other things to let humans give up that sort of advanced tech.
“That’s fire.”
“Fire good!!”
“Well, yes, to an extent.”
“We take home to dry leaf hut?”
“No, that would be bad.”
“Oh.”
*lightning crash*
“We take fire now!!”
“No, you idiot, that would burn down your house!!”
“You threaten me?”
“…”
You should read the webcomic Freefall. They recently had a storyline very similar to that :)
The ‘we want fire’ people (Sam’s people, the Sqids) won in the end, and the god (Bob) lost :).
Sure, they almost burned down the entire village and almost started a conflagration, but in the end, it didnt happen, and they got to keep fire, and they were able to progress technologically at least a bit from being in caves and being cold in the morning as a result.
They were shown how the scanner worked, the Dirt Apes want their own scanner to play with
No. They wont let them examine the scanner and have it explained HOW it works. Because without that explanation, the data is worthess and not credible. It might as well be a ghost-detector from Ghost Hunters.
Not just America: every tinpot country with a pandy-arse dictator would be after the tech… if they hadn’t already bought it with stolen tech and money
Not just America.
EVERY national government, the United Nations (& huge technical conglomerate corporations too!) would want to get their hands on both the Fell ship & Cora’s if they can pull it off. What their trying to do right now is establish a claim with diplomacy & (Earth-based) laws…But there should be no doubt in anyone’s mind that they still think acquiring one or both ships by force is still an option, regardless of how bad it would be for Earth to even try. And this doesn’t even take the ship with Alari refugees into consideration…
Just looking at the history of warfare here in the mundane Earth, we’ve seen a vast difference between opposing militaries when one side is technologically only a few decades behind the other. Now throw in the fictional alien technology being acquired by one side only into the mix & there wouldn’t be any need for the corruption of Fell radiation for the rest of us to watch Earth go full-out genocide.
Not just America. Any Big Power. Think about what the Chinese Government could do if Aliens landed on their doorstep. I mean, they’re pretty bad as it stands now, imagine them with Alien Tech.
Sydney looks as if she hasn’t slept well so she may not be thinking clearly.
But she should know she can’t say “I won’t do that” because it will be given as an order and she is part of a military organization.
Nope, Sydney is thinking very clearly, and, as one of the top-level Supers on the planet: let them try and order her around, see how long the fallout lasts
Depending on what she shoots, and what’s shot at her, the (radioactive)fallout can last a very, very long time. I still think she’ll come out of it unscathed tbh.
And you picked up on the word deliberately used: fallout :D
Of course Sydney (and Les, naturally) would come out of it unscathed, and if the planetary fallout made it ‘too hot’ (or cold, depending on if it results in a thousand years of fire or ‘nuclear winter’) for Sydney to stay, she can always use her Causeway to get back to the Fracture
Yeah, between her and Maxima, there’s really no government agency that has any say in what they HAVE to do.
She is one of the top level, but low ranking, supers in the world, so I could see some people pushing for a court marshal.
Agent: I could order you to help us. You could be arrested for insubordination and refusing a lawful order.
Sydney: You could, but you won’t. [ Grabs Shield and Light-hook orbs ] Besides, I don’t think that kind of order would be lawful.
General Faulk: You could try, but you can’t! She is my subordinate, not yours. Your request for her services would go through me, and right now, I’m not in the mood to approve such a request. [ To Sydney ] Carry on, as requested, recruit.
Sydney: [ Slightly startled ] Uh, yes sir. [ Snaps a proper salute, without smacking herself in the head ]
Maxima: You are not in uniform, recruit. You only salute when in uniform. We will cover this again when you get back later.
Sydney: Oh, right. I forgot. [ Dopey smile ] Ok, I’m outta here!
Agent: Can we get back to the matter at hand: the crashed spaceship out there?
Agent 2: At least the NTSB should be examining it.
Maxima: The NTSB gets called in to determine why a vehicle crashed. I am why it crashed and I don’t think they would be coming up a set of recommendations to improve safety. Besides, the NTSB does not have any jurisdiction on acts of war; that falls to the military to investigate and, guess what, we are military! An attempted invasion by a hostile foreign power is definitely an act of war, which is the jurisdiction of the military, and this military unit stopped it!
First off, the NTSB wouldn’t be involved – this wasn’t a transportation accident and has nothing to do with transportation safety. They are only called in to find out why a vehicle crashed. They already know why the vehicle crashed. Maxima made it crash with a plasma beam.
Second, those suits are likely working on behalf of the President, and they can just contact the President, who is Faulk’s boss. And Maxima’s boss. And ultimately Sydney’s boss if she wants to be in Archon. And she’d need to actually explain why the order is not lawful – she can’t just say it’s not lawful and that’s that. And she will be arrested if she does not follow a lawful order (and yes, it’s lawful even if Sydney does not think it is – Sydney doesnt know the law) from the President, when she’s military.
The military ultimately answers to the President. If the President decides to transfer the vehicle to any other government group he so decides (NASA, whatever), then they have jurisdiction. He can simply make an executive decision.
Also it’s not a formal act of war. No act of war has been declared between Earth and the Fel. Earth did not even know of the existence of the Fel until yesterday.
Since all this happened in front of the press there is no way this decision is made anywhere below the level of POTUS. In a way it is unfortunate that this is during the Obama administration rather than the Clinton administration. A 20 minute “private meeting” with Cora in the Oval Office and Bill would let her haul the Fel ship anywhere she wants.
Oh god now I really wish this was during the Clinton administration because that would have been a hilarious resolution.
Just a caveat on that one point.
The suits may be working on behalf of POTUS but dollars to doughnuts they are not working for the POTUS.
As has been well demonstrated in the last two decade each agency is a power unto themselves and will do anything and everything to not be answerable for anything they do, all while doing their darnedest to expand their power base. Heck even the most local agencies won’t ever admit what they do even when it is in the full glare of public view [NYPD]
I’m surprised they don’t have G-Men from several different agencies engaged in a dick measuring contest over who gets the smashed alien tech.
Well… for all we know there ARE several G-men from different agencies there. But before they can argue amongst themselves who gets the smashed alien tech, they need to argue with the aliens, or none of them gets anything.
I would be incredibly surprised if at least one of the suits working for the US government was not there on behalf of POTUS, actually. Especially given the public nature of this event.
I thought she was saying that to herself back in the hallway after leaving.
…“I was just following orders” is no legal defense. The Oath of Office for all military is specific to “obey all lawfully-issued orders from designated superiors.” I contend that there is no government, no nation, no military on this planet has the “lawful authority” because it’s really a matter that’s out of their “jurisdiction” altogether. This is a matter that goes beyond any “Supreme Court” of humanity & is a matter that’s fundamental to the Laws of Nature that govern over our universe. Our universe exists in a Balance of Forces & they interact under the Laws of Action Begets Reaction & Cause Begets Effect.
If any one nation/society/culture acquires such a vast technolical edge over the others, then the Balance of Forces at play for the existence of Earth is threatened.
Sydney is clearly speaking about obeying the Superior Law of Nature (many people think of them as “Laws of Physics” as they are only what humanity has learned from the Laws of Nature) as being above the Lesser Laws of Humanity (including any government/military authority). Yes, Sydney is talking about those Designated Superiors that are above anyone in that room & above any human being.
>“I was just following orders” is no legal defense.
Besides one obvious set of occasions, it’s worked more often than not in military courts. Militarys generally prefer soldiers just follow orders; it’s more civilian leadership that makes sure that stuff like war crimes aren’t allowed.
No militaries don’t.
During all my terms in the military classes and instruction inserted into training across a broad range of subjects specifically covering not obeying unlawful orders and what constituted unlawful orders.
What does constitute an unlawful order? I imagine leaving the psychic equivalent of a bio weapon somewhere it could cause an extinction level event is something you could argue qualifies.
One that I encountered (and stood my ground on) was an order to falsify documents.
I imagine an “unlawful order” would be one that violates any federal statute or the uniform code of military justice.
A good/bad example is the occasional cowboy actions by members of the military that cause the deaths of allied forces outside the actual combat zone. Oopsy, but hey they weren’t American military personal so its all good.
Then there is a followup dog and pony show to with no actual punishment for the perpetrators outside of a paid vacation.
The problem is that what constitutes a lawfully issued order is purposefully vague. Given the way that the chain of command works, disobeying an unlawful order (say, to knowingly commit a war crime) is still likely to have severe consequences.
They aren’t that vague.
War crimes provide a way for soldiers and intel operatives to defect without being branded a traitor. Defectors can be valuable but the stigma of being a dirty rat can easily override their intrinsic value. So war crimes present both a moral and tactical imperative. They’re a brilliant bit of psychological warfare.
No offense Mignight, but in this case, ‘I was following orders’ IS a legal defense, because she’s following a LEGAL order. Please show me anything, anywhere, that says that US salvage laws would not apply here. If it was in space, I’d agree with you. IF it was on the moon, I’d agree with you. Because we have international treaties about the moon and space. But the Fel ship attacked US soil, was taken down by US soldiers, and crashed ON US soil – in fact on US owned property even.
There’s nothing even remotely illegal about following an order to salvage the ship, or to at the very least demand access to the technology to be able to determine that the ship is emitting dangerous psychic radiation other than ‘taking the aliens’ word for it’ – after the alien just admitted that they had been lying about BEING an alien in the first place, which Dabbler did do.
If she doesnt want to share her toys, then fine. She can’t stop humans from building their own toys from the salvage though. And if she wants them to not do so because the toys we’d be building are from dangerous material, she would need to figure out which is more dangerous – letting humans salvage the Fel ship, or giving up SOME of her technology (and letting us see exactly how it works so we can TRUST it) to see that the Fel ship is hazardous.
The order Sydney is stating she would disobey is one involving impounding Cora’s ship. She didn’t say anything about the Fel ship, which she knew was the main point of contention.
I’m fairly sure salvage laws don’t cover threatening to impound the ship of a foreign national whose ship is only parked on U.S. territory because she rescued a member of a U.S. military branch. As well as the implied kidnapping or “extra-judicial sequestering” of said person who is only on Earth because she’s doing Archon a favor.
Of course, the salvage law bit is really more of a maneuver. That leaves in question how to maneuver back.
Fighting bureaucracy with bureaucracy is one way to go. E.G.: Maxima: “You have a right to make that claim, Sydney and I have a right to disobey an unlawful order that we would both have to obey for you to have any chance of enforcing that claim.”
Appeal to political expediency is another way — it won’t affect a career civil servant, but it’ll affect the **** out the people who issue him orders. “Good Samaritan from outer space arrested by U.S. governement, ship impounded, after rescuing internationally famous and popular stranded member of U.S. military” is not a headline that anyone whose job depends on poll numbers wants to read.
The Twilight Council has hands in enough media franchises to shape spin in that direction, no matter how cagey the government tried to be about it (leaving aside that the cagey boat has sailed when the whole mess went down in the middle of a press conference).
Impounding the ship of someone who is trying to take salvage which belongs to the US is not an illegal order either. Especially after that person said that aliens will orbitally bombard Earth. Cora was basically saying ‘give this to us or you will be destroyed’ and the suit is like ‘well we need something to prevent you aliens from destroying us, and if you don’t want us to take the fel ship, then your ship is the only other option, plus you’re interfering with our laws in the first place.’
So no, Impounding a ship is not an illegal order. In order for an order to be illegal, you need to be able to point to a law which you would be violating by following the order. Show me the law that you would be violating by following the order. Go on. I’ll wait. IT’s not an illegal order just because ‘Sydney doesnt wanna do it.’
Especially considering that Maxima has already done at least one thing which I would have considered ACTUALLY ILLEGAL (restraining Krona) because doing so was something she felt under orders to do in order to satisfy Archon’s charter of protecting humanity.
So what… she can restrain Krona, a US citizen who is also protected by a treaty with the council, violating her civil rights, and that’s fine and dandy, but impounding a spaceship of an alien with which they have no treaties, who just implied they will have an orbital bombardment if they do not comply, and THAT’S where you draw your line in the sand?
Pander, I’m not drawing any lines in any sand. I’m wondering what direction a fictional story might go in next.
To address your points, though:
1. Cora is trying to dispose of hazardous waste. It is the unsupported (by facts or the other contending party) contention of the ??? agency suit that the Fel cruiser constitutes valuable salvage instead of an imminent danger to the safety of America and/or the Earth. I may be unlawfully restraining a child if I grab their hand, but I may be justified if that hand is in the process of trying to grab a pot of scalding hot soup off the stove. “But I waaannnt it!” is not a compelling counter-argument in that case. Nor in this one.
2. Cora wasn’t threatening to bombard America at a point during which their would be any Americans, nor any humans, there. Since America is a constitutionally defined representative democracy formed by, and of, “We the People,” it’s arguable that if there aren’t any People, there isn’t any America. Hence, she’s talking about sterilizing the graveyard/infection where America used to be “until the ship was salvaged by Dickless here” (to paraphrase Ghostbusters). That’s what she said: America becomes Fel hive, only interstellar interaction possible then is orbital bombardment. In other words, she’s saying you can’t trade with other faster than light species if you are all dead by your own stupid choices. He knew that if he was listening, so he’s being obtuse or trying to twist her words.
3. The question of lawfulness may hinge on whether the agency suit dude is allowed to define the nature of the ship to suit his convenience. Exposing the American people (and the rest of the people on Earth) to a toxic, infectious mass because someone has decided that mass of toxic waste is valuable salvage is at best a grey area, in terms of lawful orders. Would an ordinance disposal expert be obeying a lawful order if he was told to return a bomb to base that he knew wasn’t safely defused (or that he knew could not be safely defused)? Maybe. Would he be discharging his duty to protect his fellow soldiers and civilians from dangerous ordinance? Definitely not.
4. You have a point in regards to Maxima requiring Krona to go with her to have her “save point” effect checked in order to make sure it wasn’t going to break space/time. In that case, Maxima arguably restrained an uncharged civilian (well, member of the enforcement arm of an NGO, so civilian-ish) required the review of a potentially dangerous effect by a trusted expert (Dabbler) in order to safeguard the public. In this case, Maxima would be being asked to endanger the public, according to the review of a potentially dangerous effect by a trusted expert (Dabbler). So, past actions would tend to suggest that Maxima might err on the side of public safety again, lawful order or not.
BTW, at what point was it established that Krona was a U.S. citizen? Bit of a quibble, but I doubt that all the Twilight Council members are necessarily from the U.S.
And, just to reiterate: If I’m ever drawing a line in the sand as a personal legal or moral stance, whether in regards to the Grrl-verse or the real world, I’ll be sure to make that clear. All I was doing here was speculating about possible story branches. Making it an emotional argument by outrage (“THAT’s where you draw your line in the sand?”) seems a bit intellectually dishonest to me. But, to be fair, I may be reading something into what you said that you didn’t intend. Like you did with me.
“Pander, I’m not drawing any lines in any sand. I’m wondering what direction a fictional story might go in next.”
Saying ‘draw your line in the sand’ was a metaphor :) What I mean by it is that saying Maxima would go against the US government for this, which I have a hard time as a lawyer finding to be in any way illegal, when she went above what is even legal, would be wildly inconsistent from a storytelling narrative.
I’m not outraged at all, emotionally or otherwise. And my argument is a legal one, based on precedents both in law in the real world and in events that have happened (and been done directly by Maxima) in the Grrlpower universe fictional world. not an emotional one Don’t worry about it. It’s a lawyer thing. I separate my emotion from my arguments. Might not come across like that in text or something.
“Cora is trying to dispose of hazardous waste”
But she is unwilling to provide proof that it is hazardous waste beyond her word and the word of Dabbler, who has already lied to the US government, the American people, and has to have an invisible handler from Ark Dark follow her because, in Dabbler’s own words, “THEY DO NOT TRUST HER.” :)
So yeah, the suits have no reason to trust Cora’s claims that it’s hazardous. Cora and Dabbler both refuse to give the US government the tech specs and science behind HOW they can detect ‘psychic toxic radiation.’ It’s like if I ran up to you wearing a labcoat and said ‘Your car is leaking radon!’ then I flash a device in your face that’s going beep, and demand the keys to your car because I claim if I don’t dump it in the river you’re gonna die from radon poisoning. You have no reason to believe me or trust me.
“Cora wasn’t threatening to bombard America at a point during which their would be any Americans, nor any humans, there.”
She made the threat of orbital bombardment on behalf of the Xevoarchy, as in if the US becomes a Fel Hive, yes, but the basic premise is the suits have no reason to believe in the psychic radiation in the first place, making the orbital bombardment threat sound more like ‘if you don’t give us that ship, you will be bombarded from orbit and our excuse will be that you’re corrupted by this thing that we refuse to prove is real to you in any way that you can VERIFY.’
“In this case, Maxima would be being asked to endanger the public,”
Again, you are basing this on something that is unverified by humans, and that the aliens refuse to GIVE verification beyond their say-so. Maxima’s loyalty is to her country, not to the aliens, and I would be surprised if she did not think the aliens should give the tech to prove fel radiation at the very least.
“according to the review of a potentially dangerous effect by a trusted expert (Dabbler). ”
Dabbler is not full trusted by the US government, including by Maxima, or Dabbler would not have X always following and keeping watch on her. And Maxima has no reason to assume that Dabbler won’t turn on humanity if she had a conflict of interest between aliens and Archon. She trusts Dabbler enough to work with her, but I doubt it’s enough to turn on her own government based on Dabbler’s say-so. Especially when Dabbler won’t give that verification of how her tech works in a way that the humans can check for credibility.
“So, past actions would tend to suggest that Maxima might err on the side of public safety again, lawful order or not.”
Exactly the opposite, actually. Maxima’s willingness to violate the law in order to follow Archon’s charter, which is set by the US government, implies that she would definitely also follow a LEGAL order like salvaging the Fel ship, or preventing Cora from taking or destroying the Fel ship (including impounding her ship until they can backwards engineer Fel technology).
If only General Faulk (who is in charge of an organization designed to handle conundrums like this) could come up with an asset that can see unseeable things.
Then the question of whether the ship is salvage or whether it is a toxic radiated danger might be settled.
That assumes the suits are going to entertain any evidence that gets in the way of them getting their hands on whatever they imagine the Fel cruiser contains. Sydney can see various energies with the truesight orb, but she can’t show them to others, any more than it lets others see through illusions. So, the suits could just counter with “You’re just lying for Cora because she rescued you,” and we’re back to suits want stuff and won’t listen to anyone who says they can’t have stuff.
Cora, Dabbler, Maxima, et al are in the unenviable position of trying to keep a particularly stubborn child from not only burning themselves by touching a hot pan on the stove, but tipping over the pan, starting a grease fire, and burning the house down in the process.
I suppose they could settle it by letting suit dude go onto the ship, waiting for him to turn Fel, and saying “See, now do you believe us?” That does seem cruel, though.
Everyone is going back and forth with what laws apply or don’t apply yet all assume the US Gov is actually sovereign in this case and totally missed the leviathan in the room. You have to think outside the US box or even the dirtball box since both have been blown wide open.
I am pretty sure that Galactic level laws override those of mud apes in most cases where they come into conflict with the peace and well being of the Galaxy as a whole.
The Gov types are ignoring the idea that an infestation would put them on the fumigation list.
My guess is that message sent from the bugs pursuers will result in a pest control agency showing up, showing their credentials, insisting the gov guys will be “late” if they don’t hurry up and get out of the way. Then proceed with a though decontamination followed by a debriefing of Cora, crew and those directly involved, plus the alien ambassador in residence while ignoring the government types.
But hey, that is pure speculation on my part but would make more sense story wise.
Admittedly if Faulk came down on Cora’s side, that would give SOME weight, but in the end he is POTUS is still his superior, and if any of these suits are speaking on behalf of POTUS, then his hands might be tied.
Pander, I wasn’t saying that you were emotional or outrage, I was saying that you were engaging in a logical fallacy. An appeal to emotion, in the sense that you were characterizing me (you used the second person “you” without specifying who the “you” was supposed to be, in a reply to me — hence the natural assumption that you meant me). You said “THIS is where you draw your line in the sand?” This was a straw man fallacy (the assumption that I had stated an absolutist position — ‘drawn a line in the sand’ — was false and baseless). This was also an appeal to emotion by painting the line you falsely claimed I’d drawn as being a somehow shocking “THIS”
Instead of addressing what I said, you acted as if I had taken an inflexible position, then implied that the position I never actually took was somehow shocking or outrageous to take.
So, either you didn’t actually understand what I wrote, or you did, and chose to misconstrue it.
I’m honestly not bothered either way, but I do find the parallel between your flow of argument in the comments and the head suit-guy’s flow of argument in this page interesting.
Woodrobin – Quite the reverse.
You have presumed, largely based on emotional connection to the story line and characters, that what Cora says is a fact.
That’s not the way that law works.
At this point, we have certain facts (what happened) and certain unverified claims (what Cora has said on camera).
We do not know what Cora and Dabbler have discussed off camera.
“Hey, a jump in tech like this will be really bad for these guys. How do we stop it?”
“Let’s pretend the whole ship suffers from the same radiation as the creche.”
“Okay.”
So, maybe what they are stating now is true, maybe not. But it merely is a claim.
Your decision of who you think is credible is not relevant to the question of whether an order is legal.
Max’s decision might be, to some degree. But she is keeping her mouth tight-shut at the moment. She doesn’t have to make a decision yet, other than keeping her trap shut until the suits have finished negotiating.
Then, if the situation results in an order she thinks is tremendously ill advised, she gets to decide whether to follow it or object.
I was going to respond directly to Woodrobin (along with the 50 or 60 other posts I’ve made today in response to people on different subjects), but your post was pretty close to anything I would have written so I’m just going to go with what you said here. :)
Dal, you have presumed that a lawful order is ever going to exist. Just jumped right to a hypothetical that has no real indication of existing. Suity McSuitface can’t order Sydney to get him a cup of coffee as far as we know — there’s been no indication he’s anywhere even adjacent to, much less in, Archon’s chain of command.
Sydney’s essentially stating she has a conscientious objection to being ordered to be involved with impounding Cora’s ship. Even if Faulk decided to go along with McSuitface’s threat, if he doesn’t involve Sydney in the squad detailed to make the attempt at impounding the ship, no order gets disobeyed. She didn’t say she’d act to prevent it, she only actually said she wouldn’t help with it.
If Faulk was dumb enough to issue that order, and Sydney disobeyed it, she could be charged with being AWOL (if she stayed at the comic shop), which she could fight on the grounds that her contract with Archon specifically gives her New Comics Day off, so she does, in fact, have leave and cannot therefore be AWOL on that day. A court martial could be brought on the charge of disobeying a direct order, but she’d still have a defense based on being asked to perform a duty while she is explicitly, contractually off-duty.
Faulk would, where he that biddable and that dumb, damage the esprit de corps of ARC-Swat, erode his command authority, erode the loyalty of one of his most potentially valuable resources, and accomplish exactly zero for doing it.
The smartest move for him, assuming again that he was dumb enough to go along with the impounding plan, would be to leave Sydney out of it and then, assuming he and Sydney remain human long enough for it to be relevant, have Max give Sydney a stern lecture about respecting the chain of command (i.e. she should raise her objection to a superior, not spout it out in the middle of a meeting she’s poked into to tell people she’s off-duty) and leave it at that.
That’s likely to all be moot tomorrow, when/if the story line doesn’t go that direction, of course.
She never restrained Krona, they never did come to it, she asked Krona to come with then and Krona agreed because she knew her time loop was potentially universe-ending and the more people studied it, the better.
IF Krona refused to follow her then she probably would have restricted her, and, a case could be done if it was illegal or not. If someone went around with something that could be a primed nuclear bomb would it be illegal to restrain him? and Krona’s power could have been much more powerful than any bomb.
She most definitely did restrain Krona, and I have a few days worth of arguments and a few hundred posts on that :)
There was no probable cause, or even any reasonable suspicion, to detain Krona. She did nothing wrong – in fact the only thing she did was save Sydney’s life. Krona was in no danger of fleeing the country, and she was already being vouched for by the Council, which has an ongoing treaty with the US government. While the police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they charge you with a crime, Krona was accused of no crime in the first place, plus Maxima is not the police, she’s military. And yes, I know posse comitatus does not apply to Archon, but she also does not have the same legal rights of detaining suspects as police do without charges. She’s NOT a police officer, and even the Coast Guard (the only real equivalent to Archon in terms of military acting on US territory/soil) cannot detain someone without probable cause.
If Krona felt that she was unable to refuse, that is itself also being restrained. For example, and this is established caselaw, if the police removes your keys from your car, even though you have broken no laws, and refuses to give them back, they are restraining you illegally. Could you leave without your car? The implication is no, you can’t. There’s also a ton of caselaw on how long security can hold a suspected shoplifter without it being unlawful as well.
The only exception would be under one of the Terrorism Acts in the US, but Maxima would have to honestly think that Krona would be engaging in terroristic activities, when she ADMITTED to Krona that she knows that the Council has signed off on her as a Vi.
Also, you mention ‘if someone went around with something that could be a primed nuclear bomb’ – as Maxima has said to Sydney MANY TIMES, it is not illegal to have powers. So you can’t detain someone based on them having powers. It would be as if they passed a law saying it’s illegal to be taller than 6 foot 2. You cannot make a law that violates Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution (no bills of attainder clause) – a legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial. Doing that to Krona would be blatantly unconstitutional, just because you’re afraid that her unique abilities would be dangerous, even when she’s given no reason for anyone to think that she would do something like that.
It’s actually one of the flaws in the Superhuman Registration Act in the comics, as well as the Mutant Registration Act in X-Men. :) The movie sidesteps this issue by having actual things happen FIRST, that cause the panic to start the SRA. But it’s still legally problematic.
This isn’t minority report, after all :)
Btw when I say you can’t detain someone for having powers, I mean specifically ‘You cannot detain someone SOLELY for having powers, without at least a reasonable suspicion that they actually did something’ If your sole reasoning for detaining them is they ‘might’ do something in the future, then that doesn’t even meet reasonable suspicion, which is less than probable cause.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-527-when-i-say-favor/
“Blah blah … I insist you return with us to base.”
“Oh. O… Okay, that makes sense I guess.”.
I’d be surprised if you could get a judge to call that “involuntary” or “duress”.
Max only had to SAY she insisted, she didn’t have to actually insist.
I could very easily convince a judge that it was duress when one of the most powerful supers on the planet plants her hand on your shoulder and INSISTS that you come back with them to their military fortified base for questioning. :)
Heck, I could convince a judge of that if I just have a normal armed police officer do the exact same thing to someone as diminuitive as Krona. Krona’s nervous stammering, coerced ‘compliance’ alone could clinch it :).
*shrugh* one could convince people of a lot of things that aren’t true.
It’s harder than you’d think. It helps when you have precedent to back you up, which I would in that sort of scenario with Maxima and Krona. Look at the second paragraph in the post to which you just responded.
The idea of duress is also based on the mind of the person being under duress, not based on the ‘actual intention’ of the person doing the duress (although in this case, Maxima’s words were clearly implying that she WAS trying to exert duress as well).
Or rather, what a ‘reasonable person’ would consider duress in their mind. And I have a lot of precedent of cases to show examples of things FAR less than what Maxima did that were taken, by what the courts have repeatedly ruled to be ‘reasonable,’ as duress.
For one thing, their salvage claim is based on US & international salvage laws. Beyond that, they would have to deal through whatever salvage laws are set up under the jurisdiction of interstellar laws. From what Cora has said so far, the Fel are, by interstellar law, galactic-level criminals & targeted for complete genocide. Earth law would not override the greater interstellar law, which would likely call for the impound & utter destruction of anything Fel.
Actually, there are circumstances where a military member not only can, but *must* disobey orders, and that is when they receive orders that they believe are against the law and/or constitution. Military members are only obligated to obey legal orders.
Part of our oath of Enlistment. towhit: My oath of enlistment. “”I, Amber L. Thompson, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed … Unless same orders contradict moral and lawful duty!”
Not just against the law, but against humanity. The Nuremburg trials made it clear – there are some actions that no government can make legal, and all humans must avoid or face consequences. That’s an idealized way to put it, but I think it’s about right to their intent.
I did a thesis on the Nuremburg Trials and I’m not aware of anything in them that made legal salvage operations a crime against humanity.
Sydney has been given enough of a crash course on the Galaxy (a critically important though unplanned educational excursion which the empty suit agents here lack) to understand that what Cora explained about stygian energy fields when forming battle plans against the Fel are likely correct information from a well respected (galacticaly speaking) authority.
The danger represented by that energy field cannot responsibility be ignored, nor dismissed by some braindead bureaucratic goofball. Sydney cannot further actions which she knows full well will kill Americans because someone who is thoroughly incompetent has been promoted to a position they are emminently unsuited for.
The direct, mortal danger posed by the debris makes it an unlawful order. And no (given the nature of the threat) it would not be okay if Sydney went along with it just until some hapless personnel grew tentacles and ran people down with a bulldozer.
“Sydney has been given enough of a crash course on the Galaxy (a critically important though unplanned educational excursion which the empty suit agents here lack) to understand that what Cora explained about stygian energy fields when forming battle plans against the Fel are likely correct information from a well respected (galacticaly speaking) authority.”
So one paragraph is enough huh? Sydney trusts Cora because Cora rescued her from being stranded on Fracture Station. The suits and the US government have NO REASON to trust Cora.
“The danger represented by that energy field cannot responsibility be ignored, nor dismissed by some braindead bureaucratic goofball.”
The danger represented by the energy field cannot be detected by human technology, and the aliens won’t share the technology which CAN detect it so that the humans would trust the aliens in the first place. Seems like it’s the aliens that are acting in a braindead manner by not realizing they are making themselves inherently less trustworthy with their actions, and demanding humans unconditionally comply with their demands. To a casual observer, it looks instead like ‘aliens not only do not want to share their own tech, they don’t want to share ANYONES tech with humans because we are primitive apes and second class citizens to them, despite Cora being a human who is only allowed the tech because her ancestors were removed from Earth without the governments knowing about it.
“The direct, mortal danger posed by the debris makes it an unlawful order”
Prove that there’s a direct, mortal danger. Which you cannot do unless Dabbler shows the humans how her tech works and the science behind that tech, which she will not do. In the law, we call this the difference between admissible evidence and inadmissible hearsay. The aliens have given hearsay. They have a way to show that their evidence is real, and are refusing to do so, which makes that evidence not credible.
So no, you just SAYING it’s a mortal threat does not make it a mortal threat. You are not qualified to make that assertion, and Sydney is not qualified to make that assertion.
Who said anything about merely trusting Cora?
Seriously?
…. um… quite a few people here have said they should trust Cora and Dabbler actually.
Taking at her word that Dabbler’s scanner can detect stygian radiation, which the humans cannot detect with their equipment, while SIMULTANEOUSLY not letting the humans examine the scanner to understand the scientific principles of how it works, or better yet, explaining the scientific principles of how it works by breaking it down to simpler and simpler terms (which we know Dabbler has been capable of doing in Dabbler’s Science Corners) means instead, we just ‘trust Cora, and by extension, trust Dabbler, who is Cora’s friend.’ And the suits, in universe, logically and consistently would have no reason to trust someone who clearly does not trust them either.
Crimes against humanity are not and never have been the only unlawful orders.
The OP brought up the Nuremburg Trials. That’s Crimes against Humanity. There are other orders which are unlawful orders as well, but if you bring up Nuremburg Trials, that only covers four types of crimes:
Conspiracy to commit crimes alleged in other courts (not applicable here)
Crimes against peace (not applicable here)
War crimes (not applicable here)
and Crimes against Humanity (not applciable here).
So no, nothing in this strip would come under the Nuremburg Trial crimes, which all collectively are considered ‘crimes against humanity.’ (the fourth indictment).
As for other unlawful orders, NO DEFINITION in legal history would consider impounding a vehicle or technology, or salvage operations, to be an unlawful order.
United States vs Keenan – that showed that ordering the murder of an innocent a civilian is an illegal order
The My Lai Massacre of 1968 – premeditated murder is an illegal order.
Violation of Article 93 – Cruelty and Maltreatment of Prisoners – is an illegal order (2004 court martial for mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners of war)
None of this would come under what they would be ordering Archon to do. You’re making up definitions if you say ‘because I do not want to do it, it’s an illegal order.’ Especially since you can’t point to a law that would be violated to make it illegal. You can’t point to a violation of the Nuremburg crimes. You can’t point to a violation of Article 93. You can’t point to murder. You can’t point to torture. You can’t point to ANYTHING except that you dont like following the order.
That’s what makes an order illegal. If it’s telling you to do something which would be a crime, for which you would be liable. Impounding? Not a crime. Cops do it all the time. Salvage? Not a crime. What’s the crime?
If Sydney knows the ship is toxic (and be real, the comm orb will be able to see it) then yeah, it’s an unlawful order given to her.
Because whether or not something like the Stygian Energy is really there or not isn’t a matter of conjecture to Sydney.
As Kevin found out, to his detriment. And Sciona, resulting in the loss of her little blood gollums.
“If Sydney knows the ship is toxic”
Sydney does not know the ship is toxic, but you do bring up a good point. If the suits trust Sydney’s orbs (since they are in american custody in that Sydney is working for Archon), then they might have more reason to believe the orbs than believe the alien scanner. Although Sydney’s friendship with Cora might make her credibility suspect, UNLESS she can show the suits what she sees with the comm orb.
But at least that’s a good argument :) Especially since people have seen definitive proof of Sydney’s comm orb being able to detect other things which are otherwise undetectable.
“Legal salvage” suggests some sort of territorial sovereignty. At the level of galactic culture, that may not apply, and especially when dealing with a pestilence like the Fel. They’re more in the nature of an extremely infectious plague-bearing bit of toxic hazardous material than “salvage” in any case, but the whole argument that there is some innate thing that must be respected about local governments is not going to stand. This is the same thing that would be said about a hypothetical highly-advanced steamship full of typhoid carriers crash-landing on the shores of a country which is surrounded by colonial powers. They want the knowledge aboard the ship, they cannot tell that the perfectly pleasant (if mendacious) people onboard are carriers of a deadly disease, and the colonial powers are ready to firebomb the whole mess. Same kind of situation.
Since there is no legal salvage operation in the discussion, that is entirely irrelevant.
The problem with this, speaking as a former USAF officer and now attorney, is that determining what is “lawful” is more often than not a political question, and proving a negative (not-legal, not-constitutional, not-morally correct) is near impossible. Very seldom are military members ordered to something blatantly illegal, like kill unarmed civilians who are clearly not doing anything threatening, and are located in places where nothing threatening or dangerous is occurring. Almost always there is a threat of bombing, mob violence (which requires no weapons), collateral targets (rocket launchers intentionally surrounded by school kids and hospitalized innocents). Under those circumstances, it is the leadership who get to make the judgement calls.
When soldiers start to assert their moral right to refuse orders, they have the incredible burden or arguing that they understood all the collateral circumstances regarding the orders and exercised superior judgement to the senior enlisted or officers over them.
speaking as a former NCO in a NATO no-US military force, I will quote an old senior NCO I spoke about ‘stupid and dangerous orders’ one could be given by completely clueless COs:
“-First of all, not obeying a direct order is not to be thought of. You were given it, you must prepare yourself and your men to do it, whatever it is.
-if it is really stupid, you can ask to be given that order in writing. Maybe your Co will accept, and that will hopefully give you the time for your CO’s superior to come and take charge, or a trusted friend from this officer have him come to his senses. If your CO does not want to write it, or nobody has come after he has done it, you obey, period, and hope it will turn out ok. You’re a soldier, and a soldier obeys…. Prepare to ask to be sent to another unit, too, for you just made yourself an annoying guy, and nobody likes smartasses”
Right. And if it’s an order that you think is illegal, and you have the order put in writing.
And then if you refuse, you have a defense after they lock you up for not obeying a direct order.
In the above comic, there’s not a court in the US, especially not a military court, that would claim impounding after a threat was made, or salvage in clear compliance with international salvage laws, was an illegal order (assuming the suits are giving the order from the President of the United States, who is the commander in chief of the military).
And to people who are saying ‘Yeah but they’d have to arrest Maxima and/or Sydney.’ So are you saying that you genuinely think Maxima will GO ROGUE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT or Sydney will? Maxima freaking took Krona into custody even (which WAS illegal if Krona’s a US citizen, and violated her civil rights as well as whatever treaty the US has with the Council)… you think THIS is where she’d say ‘no, impounding a spaceship that just threatened orbital bombardment’ or ‘salvaging a ship that I just shot down personally when it was trying to kill us’ would be where she decides to fight the United States Government and kill her military career?
Cora wasn’t threatening Orbital Bombardment, you moron, she was stating FACT.
“If you turn into a Fel Hive, We’ll glass it”
IF. not a threat. A fact.
Exactly. At the point of bombardment (after America turns into a Fel hive) there aren’t any humans, there aren’t any Americans, and America is “We the People” formed into a “more perfect Union” (not Voltron, though a giant Uncle Sam composed of the merged citizenry of America punching kicking Ego out of the solar system like a kickball really should happen in a comic someday).
So, no “We the People” (since they’ve all been nano-mulched as fertilizer to grow new Fel) = no “more perfect Union” (unless the argument is that the Fel are a more perfect Union, which, no, they’re not) = no America. So, she’s not threatening America. She’s explaining that after they’re all dead, the interstellar community would only be able to interact with the mass graveyard that used to be America by bombarding it from orbit to prevent the Fel from spreading further. In other words, saving the rest of humanity, if possible, from suit-guy’s stupidity. Or at least eliminating the threat of another Fel hive-world that was created by his short-sighted greed.
I would sort of get where Pander was coming from if he was arguing that this was suit-guy’s perspective on the situation. But since Pander seems to be actually arguing that lawful orders trump the safety of the planet, trust, basic common sense, and other considerations, I can’t value his position at all. It just has no practical merit. Taking an official position that a fall from the top of the Archon building is perfectly safe, then giving everyone on the team a lawful order to jump off the roof, is going to result either in a mass refusal to follow the order or a team reduced to only the members able to survive falling many stories and hitting the ground (or those clever enough to figure out a way to technically obey the order without kersplatting).
“I would sort of get where Pander was coming from if he was arguing that this was suit-guy’s perspective on the situation.”
I am arguing from the suit guy’s perspective, in universe, rather than as an outside observe who actually has genuine reason to be able to believe Cora. Which I’ve actually stated NUMEROUS times in posts.
“But since Pander seems to be actually arguing that lawful orders trump the safety of the planet, trust, basic common sense, and other considerations,”
I’m saying that lawful orders trump unsubstantiated and unprovable threats to the planet, which come from people who are not credible and do not trust the humans any more than the humans trust them. So there is no ‘safety of the planet’ as far as the suit guy is concerned, because they are talking about a danger that there is absolutely no way to prove unless they actually LET THEM LOOK AT THE SCANNING TECH and HOW IT AND THE UNDERLYING SCIENCE WORKS.
Also there is no trust because the aliens do not trust them, so there is no reason to issue trust in return. Trust is not given, trust is earned and reciprocated.
As for ‘common sense’ – the common sense is actually from the SUIT GUY. Blind trust and compliance is not ‘common sense.’ It’s the opposite.
“I can’t value his position at all.”
Her position at all, but I’ll give you a pass on that :)
“It just has no practical merit.”
It has plenty of merit. You just don’t agree with it, so instead of being able to argue against it, you summarily ignore the arguments. :)
Like I KEEP using as an argument, and not a single person ever gives a counterargument to, it would be like I run over to you wearing a labcoat and a device with flashing lights, claim that your house is leaking ectoplasmic radiation and in order to prevent you from being possessed by demons and killing thousands of people with the supernatural powers you will surely gain while under the demonic thrall, I must blow up your house. I flash my blinky light device at you to show that when the lights are blinking like that, it means demonic and ectoplasmic negative energy, and if you ask how it works, I tell you ‘THERES NO TIME TO EXPLAIN AND BESIDES, YOU ARE NOT READY FOR THIS TYPE OF SCANNING TECHNOLOGY ANYWAY!” And I insist on blowing up your house.
You have no reason to think I’m a real scientist who is a lot smarter than you are, with technology that your primitive mind cannot possible understand, and maybe I just want to blow up your house because I’m a neighbor that doesn’t like your loud parties and if your house is destroyed you’ll have to move.
But hey… trust me. Don’t bother to verify it in any way. Don’t make me show how the scanner works or the science behind it to prove that ectoplasmic radiation is a real thing. After all, we’re talking about demonic possession and thousands or tens of thousands of deaths.
:)
Re: your gender: my bad.
Re: Your arguing from the point of view of Suity McSuitface: that really doesn’t come across in your phrasing very clearly. It reads like you’re arguing from real-world examples and not keeping the focus in-universe. I think any confusion as to whose point of view you’re representing has to be laid not only at the feet of the reader, but the writer as well.
Re: lab coat person saying your house is leaking ectoplasm, you do realize that the most relevant example of ignoring warnings because you don’t understand the science behind them involving an arrogant, blustering government suit involves the line “Everything was fine until Dickless over there shut off the grid!” (Ghostbusters). Yes, I’d be averse to letting someone blow up my house, but I’d also be averse to being the cause of the entire human race dying. The risk is apocalyptic, I’m unqualified to be certain it’s not real, and I can replace my house more easily than I can replace the human race. Also, if the person in the lab coat’s previous interaction with me and mine was to rescue a service member lost during a mission, entirely as a favor, at significant personal risk — I might be inclined to at least consider the possibility that she wasn’t trying to con me.
“Re: your gender: my bad.”
No problem. It’s the internet and I’m very authoritative in my arguments. Plus I’m in a field usually dominated by guys. Plus… I’m on the internet in a webcomic forum. It’s a reasonable mistake. It’s just something most people here who are regular posters already knew about me :)
“Your arguing from the point of view of Suity McSuitface:”
Correct, I am most definitely doing that. Devil’s advocate, if you will, for the strawman that’s making a very good point that some people refuse to acknowledge because they have meta-knowledge (which they likely would not have if they lived IN the Grrlpower universe).
“that really doesn’t come across in your phrasing very clearly.”
I think I’ve given it quite a good go at phrasing it clearly, which is why I’ve been posting so MUCH with so much description in my reasoning, in the place of Suity McSuitface. I think some people (not you, but some other people) tend to get a little hot under the collar though in internet arguments, so I’ve had to refute quite a few of their tangents as well, unfortunately (while also dealing with namecalling and personal attacks, or at least what they intend to be personal attacks).
““Everything was fine until Dickless over there shut off the grid!””
He turned out to be right though :) It’s actually a good example of ‘Strawman has a Point.’ He just went about it like a douche. The containment unit was definitely dangerous. And they didn’t have any redundancies against … say… someone simply flipping a switch. Or a city-wide blackout.
My favorite example of Strawman has a point is Carl Anheuser from 2012, but Walter Peck from Ghostbusters is another example. So is Principal Ed Rooney from Ferris Bueller’s Day Off.
The key feature of the ‘Strawman has a Point’ trope is the strawmanned ‘bad guy’….. is actually correct in what they’re arguing, even if they don’t always go about it the right way (although actually Secretary of State Carl Anheuser continually DOES go about it the right way and everyone else is just an idiot).
“Yes, I’d be averse to letting someone blow up my house, but I’d also be averse to being the cause of the entire human race dying.”
Yes, but the key point is you have no reason to believe that the entire human race would be dying if I don’t BLOW UP YOUR HOUSE :). Except that you’d have to trust me because I might be able to show you that I can do things that show that I’m smarter than you in one area, which you’d be arguing means that I’m completely honest with you about EVERYTHING. Which is obviously foolish thing to believe blindly.
“The risk is apocalyptic,”
You have no proof of that beyond Cora and Dabbler’s say-so though. Or in my scenario, my say-so as an extremely intelligent nutcase in a labcoat with a blinking doohickey.
“I’m unqualified to be certain it’s not real,”
In the absence of knowledge of whether something is real or not, would your honest decision be to assume it IS real and therefore to let me blow up your house…. just to be safe? Even though you have no reason to believe me?
Think of it like if it’s a court case, and you’re seeking an injunction. You have to actually be able to PROVE the danger or problem you’re claiming in order to get that injunction. You don’t just ask for an injunction and AUTOMATICALLY get it, then I have to prove a way to lift that injunction. That’s not how it works.
“Also, if the person in the lab coat’s previous interaction with me and mine was to rescue a service member lost during a mission, entirely as a favor, at significant personal risk”
If I’m in a labcoat, and I save your brother’s life by pushing him out of the way of a car, and barely risk getting hit by the car while doing so, that should not be enough of a reason for you to suddenly trust everything I say to you, no matter how outlandish or unproven it is though. Especially if I was doing it because of a favor I owe to someone else. :)
In the current comic scenario, there are a LOT of reasons why Cora might want to keep humans from having the ship that are neither ‘wanting to con them without cause’ or ‘being crazy.’ It could just be that Cora and Dabbler simply do not trust humans to have ANY advanced alien technology, and the claim about invisible, undetectable-by-earthly-means evil psychic stygian death radiation is a good way to make sure the psychotic hairless apes on this planet don’t get tech that would put them on an even playing field if they have not met that hurdle on their own. Which is something both she and Dabbler have outright stated previously is a reason why they would not be giving any of their NON-stygian radiation tech to humans.
Pretty sure salvage rights only apply to ships and goods lost that no longer have a legally recognised owner claiming them. Just because it crashed or got shot down doesn’t mean ownership changes. Oh course that never stopped governments from seizing stuff they wanted, but this guy has no legal grounds for claiming it.
The ship attacked first, which can be seen as an act of undeclared war or just a crime.
So the wreck can be considered spoils of war or a weapon used in a crime. In both cases the ship can be commandeered/impounded.
And remember, possession is nine-tenths of the law.
Yes, but ownership is the rest and the law deals with crimes not non-crimes. Most of tht 9/10 is various form of illegal possession and the punishment for it…
I’d say that an unprovoked attack is a crime so law would have something to say about it.
Compare this to the U2 spyplane shot down some decades ago,
most of that plane is still on display in a museum in Moscow.
(can’t think of another suitable example without some research)
There’s no argument that anyone other than the US and the Fel own the ship.
Since the Fel is universally seen as “bad”, they lose any argument on which of us it is.
(Of course, if we keep the tech, then we become Fel anyway, so who “wins” is ambiguous”.)
Actually Marine Salvage rights are meant to be in regards to Open Waters. Technically an alien battleship being taken down on the planet it was attacking – is considered “Spoils of war”. If this was earth tech we were talking about America would be within their rights except one thing. Under space-faring rules Earth would be considered “A Third-world planet” excuse the butchered terminology.
America, Britain etc would no more want Etheopia claiming unexploded nuclear bombs are spoils of war and claiming the right to use them – than these aliens want the Fel ship to be claimed. The only way this could resolve is…
… If Space Police (who we already saw) turn up and pull Jurisdiction in regards to existing and pending cases against the Fel… Or something….. Ya know.
Considering that the “Third World country” is the reason that the bomb is unexploded, and can presumably take down anything that the First World can send, that scenario is not QUITE the same.
How well could Maxi prevent a ranged attack from all sides designed to turn Dirt into space dust?
Maxi was only able to prevail because the Galaxy at large had no knowledge of the Super infestation, which means Irradon got some ‘splaining to do back home
Anyone considering attacking would have to reconnoiter first to figure out what to attack WITH.
Sure, they could toss in asteroids or whatever from a distance, but anything more “hands-on” is going to lose some ships. Also, the fact that humans seem to have gotten themselves to the Fracture and Sciona’s home world means that, if you attacked, you’d have to defend your home as well.
Nobody is going to send a fleet without first seeing if a lower level of escalation will work. Like shiny baubles.
“Okay, you own some salvage and you apparently have FTL and some weird sh_t, so we’ll allow you to trade for up to level electroviolet, as long as all trade goes through Joe’s Good Stuff Emporeum on Draxel 7, where my cousin has the veelig concession.”
The point was: IF a galactic force decided that Dirt was too dangerous and decided to launch an attack, what good is Maxi if it is a concerted attack from all (or almost all) directions and outside of Dirt’s range?
You know, kinda like what happened on Alari Prime?
While that is an interesting question, it is not relevant to “what will happen in the negotiations over this Fel wreck?”
Max can’t, by herself, but there’s literally no telling what would happen if, say, six ships decided to attack Earth. We have at least three, and possibly four, sets of people who can stop one attack each, just in our little ARC group. You think the rest of the planet, including Deux, can’t come up with two or three more?
That’s beside the fact that, if you combine Max with a teleporter, she can probably take out three by herself.
Of course, that’s assuming the attacker doesn’t show up with a real fleet – I don’t see Deus, Maxima or Sydney come up with a way to take on dozens of space ships at once. (Although, maybe Krona could simply ‘delete’ them all? That’s a scary thought.)
Deus would save us.
Doing so against improbable odds is, after all, what his company is founded on.
All hail Deus, our hero, our savior, the manliest man to ever man.
Bite your tongue, good sir! That man is a national treasure.
For a war torn nation in Africa.
It WAS a war torn nation. Now it’s on its way to being an economic powerhouse in the region, thanks to the man, the legend, your friend and my friend and HUMANITY’S friend, not to mention one heckuva wild night under the sheets, Deus.
I actually like Deus overall, just couldn’t resist the wordplay once I saw it. He’s definitely done a whole lot of good for Galytn, but that’s at least as much (and probably far more) good business practice as it is philanthropy. Calling him the embodiment of “greed is good” would be taken as a compliment.
I will give you that you did a marvelous bit of wordplay in your blasphemy against the pinnacle of human intelligence, savvy, sexual prowess, forethought, and sheer chutzpah that is Deus.
*stands up*
*gives a polite golf clap and a nod*
*sits down*
:)
How could Maxima prevent a ranged attack designed to turn Dirt into a rapidly expanding dust cloud? Call Krona or (Sydney and Dabbler).
Maxima: Sydney, how long do you think it would take you to get to the moon? It looks like an alien base has been set up there and they are preparing to invade Earth from there.
Sydney: I don’t know. A day or two? Oh, I have that causeway mode, which could get me there quickly, but I really don’t know how to navigate it yet.
Maxima: Talk to Dabbler. See if she can help.
Dabbler starts salivating at the thought.
Why would they need to be as close as the moon?
I love that you all are calling Earth “Dirt.”
Blame Guesticus. :)
It wasn’t me who started that (umm, fairly sure it wasn’t me…), just liked the term and ran with it, don’t blame me if that phrase has caught on (still attempting to get “the cake is fake, and the pie is lye, eating too much of either and you die” to catch on… to no avail so far :( )
You didnt start the term, but you popularized it on the comment forum :)
Also spelling but as butt, and calling Deus, the greatest man in fiction to ever live, SmugD, which is probably the only thing that would make us mortal enemies due to your obvious blasphemy. But I forgive you :) You and I are internet buddies!
I doubt that the galactic powers that be are yet aware of Sydney’s trip to Fracture, nor Deus’s.
If it’s a psychic emission, wouldn’t telepaths or the likes be able to detect it and support Coras’ point? Or mages specializing in mind magic, if telepaths happen to be a thing that doesn’t exist, I’m not sure any have shown up so far.
Why would someone who wants one of his guys to detect it consider them a reliable source? He basically asking for proof that’s understood by human science. About the only thing that would really work is if you lock someone inside and watch the effect.
That’s another point too, but a human telepath or mind magic user confirming it would at least provide an additional source without the conflict of interests Cora is accused of here.
Except, how do you prove that the telepath or mind magic user can actually do what they say anymore than the two different scanners are giving accurate readouts?
We’ve seen a few other users of mental-field magic, in Dabbler’s lust effects and Vehemence’s violence incitement, and the existence of two such users at least opens the possibility of there being more. We haven’t seen on-page proof of anyone who can reliably see such manipulation fields and is trusted by the Agency*, but absence of evidence (within the limited amount we’ve seen) does not constitute evidence of absence. The most likely candidate for such a viewer would be Spex; whether she can see Stygian energy, and whether the Agency recognises her as a reputable source, we don’t know.
*Sydney did see Vehemence’s field, but her lack of experience works against her as a witness. She’s only seen a few types of manipulation field, which did not include Stygian, so there’s no proof that she would be able to see it and/or would recognise it if she did. She’s relatively new to the team, so she hasn’t built up a reputation with the Agency as a reliable source. And she has just got back from a space trip, part of which was as Cora’s guest, which may lead to reservations as regards her loyalties and/or the manipulation of her knowledge base
Ahhh. There’s that Capitalistic drive that brought us to where we are today. Brilliant.
Can’t really tell of Sydney said that inside the room or if she said it after she left. In any case, the two police cruisers that were coming after the Fel could claim superior jurisdiction I believe?
Don’t think so. By earth law, everything inside the atmosphere and below the Kármán line is within the jurisdiction of the respective nation and since earths nations are sovereign, no outside source could pull jurisdiction on them.
On earth, earthlings reign supreme and no outside body can change that and call themselves just.
The extraterrestrial authority, does not have to respect our laws. As they were not signatories, to the making of that law.
And vice versa.
It comes down to who wins a contest of force.
The difference, in this case, being that the extraterrestrial authority is bound by its own laws, which have previously been noted as “nuanced”. I’d bet the better English description would be “arcane.”
A multi-planet bureaucracy will likely still be tying its shoes by the time Max has to kill the first Fel out of the hive.
Just to inject a little levity into the debate, here’s a great sci-fi short of some lawyers negotiating under the nuances of intergalactic jurisdiction.
If an extraterrestrial authority does not have to respect our laws, while on our planet, then they are saying that we have no sovereignty. Screw that. Not to mention they do have to respect THEIR OWN LAWS – which are to not get involved in pre-FTL civilizations. That doesnt change just because we got access to someone else’s tech.
Think about it Sasha – you think we should be okay with an extraterrestrial force deciding what is best for us, regardless of our own laws on the subject? Dabber already said there’s something similar to the Prime Directive in the Xevoarchy. They’re just ignoring that now?
Sovereignty of a country doesnt just disappear because a foreigner arrives and starts ordering the natives around as if they had any say so in what the laws are in that country.
Which law is that? Is that real or are you just asserting something from science fiction you’ve heard?
I think the two ET police cruisers already left to make their reports, if I remember correctly, both of them believe accidents like this are way over their pay grade, and they already have TON of paperwork to fill. Also, it takes some time for vultures to start circling the corpse and call meeting such as this. It has already been at least a day – Max shot down the Fel ship, last page we saw Sydney getting some sleep, and now it’s day again.
I think Sydney said it while still inside the conference room. We can see the outside of that room and it looks different. Wood beams instead iron, and the hexagon pattern is at the height of her neck, inside it seems to be lower (could be different angle too). Guess we’ll find out for sure on next page.
Suit guy is an idiot. He has zero jurisdiction on the military. So he can’t even politely request Archon or any other service member get him a cup of coffee. No chain of command. His evidence wave has a bit of merit. Except, unless he is an expert in science or engineering, anything one of his own people brings him can be dismissed the same way.
So I would say his job is ‘negotiator’ and his reputation got him in the door. And to borrow a phrase from Top Gun. “His ego is writing checks, he can’t cash.”
ur right, that always annoys me when in fiction you get unnamed government operatives from top secret agencies throwing weight around when in real life government you cannot get a cup of coffee without presenting ID and a requisition form from your boss countersigned by the head of requisitions.
They would have to present ID from an agency on the authorised list, be escorted into the building, made to wait while Archeon have their identification checked and verified and even then they’d be barely allowed access. Something like this, the president and the national security council would be calling the shots and before he walked into the room, and the negotiating position would be agreed in advance with clear limits on how far he could push.
Nope, you guys are missing a BIG point having to do with the guys who make it to the top of a human political hierarchy. Think three moves ahead.
STEP ONE “We have absolute legal right to this ship and its tech.”
STEP TWO (wrangle until they agree you have the RIGHT, even if it would be stupid for you to do it.)
STEP THREE: All right, now that we’ve established we have a right to that level of tech, here’s how it’s going to go. You will TRADE us multiple samples of equivalent technology, that do NOT have this “Fel influence” that you are pretending exists, and then you can do what you want with that hunk there.
THAT’S how you get to the top of a human hierarchy.
I disagree. See they want the ship. But rights to it are dubious. Use Earth based laws. If a Russian ship pursues a drug runner to to US waters and the US sinks the Russian vessel. The ship still belongs to the Russians and they may reclaim their ship. Everyone knows the US will secretly dive on the silly thing to learn all they can. But officially it is not the US’s because it is in US territory. Same with a visiting vessel. Cora’s ship is flagged to a foreign nation. The US cannot just say mine because we want it. They would have to have a damn compelling reason and seize the vessel. But know that the crew can and will resist and may spark a war. And I really don’t think this idiot understands launching a war with a significantly larger and technologically superior opponent is unwise.
As for trade. If Cora’s stance was “Earth is not ready for FTL level tech yet.” Then a commensurate would be appropriate. But what Cora is say is that you have some leaking barrels of toxic waste and they really need to be disposed of. Which means we should be paying her to toss the thing into the sun.
Now I do think humanity might be able to crack fel tech. Or should I say Earth might. Because Cora and her whole crew were down right shocked at the raw power put out by a handful of supers. So some of them may well be immune. But her fear is also understandable. “You turned that ship and troops to scrap with a bare handful of people. What if it takes them over?”
Your example is in error.
1) Russian patrol boats pursuing an Iranian WAR ship into US Alaskan waters does not make it a Russian capture. It was never a Russian ship in the first place, and they had no claim, ever, especially since the Russian vessel in question was not capable of taking out the warship at all. They were following it wherever it was going; it was not retreating from them.
2) In such example, the wrecked ship is either Iranian property or US spoils of war. Since neither of those is party to any relevant diplomatic treaties with Russia, there is no argument that the Russians have a say.
3) No one is trying to take Cora’s (Iraqi) ship that the Iranian warship was firing on. (Although apparently the ship contained an artifact that was the casus belli (sp?) for the Iranian assault on Nome.)
All of the above being said, the possession of that wreck is a bargaining chip for the next level of negotiations, and the US would be crazy to let go of it without getting anything in return.
I shall debate 1 & 2 when I have more time. (Sorry quick reply before running to work.)
But number three the suit literally threatened to take her ship by force. This guy took a warning about how the intergalactic civilization will see fel being studied on Earth as a threat from Cora and refused to acknowledge when she did not threaten. And doubled down on his threats. I really don’t see him being reasonable or thinking three moves ahead. He is being reactionary.
His hostility might be explainable though. Did he insist on touring the fel site prior to entering Archon HQ?
Home again, thanks for waiting.
Okay section one. The situation is more the Russian patrol boats are docked at an American port and an Iranian vessel that used to haul radioactive waste attacked them. While the Russians were scrambling to get under way, a previously unknown shore battery hits the Iranian to the point it founders near the port.
Russian’s wish to haul the leaking vessel away as the port does not have the capability to handle the toxic mess.
Section two. No war has been declared so spoils of war is dubious. So refer back to your own point. It would still belong to the Iranians.
I don’t see that step 3 happening. And I don’t think they’ve even reached step 2 yet.
Panel 3, first sentence. Declining to debate is the same as ceding the matter in a negotiation. Had she said “we’ll discuss that later” or “you’ll need to comply with galactic law” it might be a point of contention.
I’d call “I’m not debating that” in English as equivalent to formally conceding the point.
In some languages, however, that sentence could be rendered as “we are not arguing over that irrelevant point.”
So, building on 1 and getting point 2 nailed down would allow them to proceed to step 3…. unless Max screws it up by being reasonable.
The real fun comes if and when the cost of winning item 3 becomes apparent.
You have Illari on your world, and you have separate safe-Fel-derived tech, therefore you no longer have our class 0 world protections. Would you please, at your leisure, let us know how you are going to pay your class 1 dues, if you would like our class-1 protections?
‘Murica
We pay our “protection fee” with high powered weapons. They may or may not be pointed at your face.
AMERICA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M
Then you havent bothered to read the above strip where Cora agrees that they have the legal right. So step 2 is already achieved by the first sentence in the first speech bubble in the third panel.
He says the US legal right to the ship is unambiguous.
Cora’s FIRST sentence in response is agreement in saying “I’m not debating that!” Because she knows they have the legal right but she is concerned about the danger of stygian radiation.
How do you know suit guy isn’t the person fully authorized by hr the President to handle this issue with all the ID, and paperwork and everything necessary to do so? For all we know he’s actually the Secretary of Defense or Secretary of State or something, but if not he’s probably been specially assigned as the negotiator with all the requisite authorizations and briefings.
I find it hard to believe even Donald Trump himself would authorise a threat of seizing Cora’s ship. But… maybe. She did clearly state that she does not represent any larger alien empire that could come after them, so they could think it might be worth it. It would really, it just seems a ridiculously risky move, especially since this is supposed to be first contact.
Suit guy is not an idiot, and for all you know he’s here on behalf of the President. Which is likely why Faulk is not speaking up. The President is the commander in chief of the military, and if the suit is speaking on his behalf, he damn well does have jurisdiction. Or he wouldnt have even been let through the Archon front door in the first place.
Faulk is in charge (go back and review the news conference about Archon’s charter) of this kind of thing, and we have seen that he has a direct line to the president.
The incident here is too important for the president not to be interfacing with Faulk directly.
Who ever these guys are, they are not (based on what we have previously seen in the strip) direct representatives of the president.
Faulk is in charge of ARCHON. He’s a one-star general. Which is high on the list, but he’s not in charge of the President. The President gives him orders, not the other way round. Sort of like how General Hammond was in charge of the Stargate Command, but when the President sends someone down there that Hammond doesn’t like, or the President signs off on someone that gets under Hammond’s skin, like Wolesy (before he joined that UN group), he has to follow through with Wolesy’s recommendations, because Hammond answers to the President, and if someone else is speaking for the President, Hammond has to comply or he can resign.
Faulk here seems to be not saying a word against the suits. If anything, he looks frustrated. Either because he sees both sides, or because he knows what the President wants in regards to the Fel technology.
“Who ever these guys are, they are not (based on what we have previously seen in the strip) direct representatives of the president.”
What are you making this statement based on? The President is a civilian office. The suits seem to be civilian, as they are not in uniform. Faulk does not speak for the President. He is ordered BY the President, because the President is Commander in Chief. Faulk is not even the top of the military command. He’s not the joint chiefs of staff. He’s not a 5 star general. He’s a one star general.
Faulk has two stars. And a video screen directly to the President.
And the President is neither a king nor deity. He cannot bestow his power upon another. If this guy is part of the cabinet or the President’s staff then he has some authority. As a recognized official. And that authority does not extend to commanding the armed forces.
I think the only civilian besides the President that can pass an order is the Secretary of Defense. And even that has to filter down through the Joint Chiefs first. So even if this guy was sent by the President. (And I don’t think he was.) He is barking way louder than he has teeth.
Reason I do not think he was sent by the President is General Faulk and the team are there. If the President wanted to just take the ship there would not be a negotiator arguing it. There would be Archon fencing the thing off and Faulk up to his armpits in underlings as that is mobilized.
“Faulk has two stars. And a video screen directly to the President.”
My bad. Two stars. That’s still not the pinnacle of military power. There are 3 more stars to go.
“And the President is neither a king nor deity.”
No, but what he (or she) IS…. is the Commander in Chief of the armed forces.
“He cannot bestow his power upon another.”
Umm…. where are you getting that the POTUS cannot give authority of others in his administration in the executive branch to act on his behalf by executive order? That literally happens ALL the time.
Opinion Clause in the Constitution – Article 2, Section 2, Clause 3
“he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices”
Appointments Clause – Article 2, Section 2, Clause 6
“and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the Supreme Court, and other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which SHALL BE ESTABLISHED BY LAW”
Recess Appointments Clause – Article 2, Section 2, Clause 8
“The President shall have the Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.
Take Care Clause – Article 2, Section 3, Clause 5
“he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed”
Commissions Clause – Article 2, Section 3, Clause 6
“and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States
Not to mention a whole lot of acts, and the ability to issue executive orders.
“And that authority does not extend to commanding the armed forces.”
If a member of the POTUS’s administration has been given authority to act on his behalf between himself and an officer, and it’s in writing, the officer is not following his orders anyway- that officer is following the orders of the President. Plus he can always say ‘if you don’t like it, I’ll call the President and he can tell you personally.’
“I think the only civilian besides the President that can pass an order is the Secretary of Defense.”
If POTUS or the Secretary of Defense sends his or her proxy down to argue on their behalf, and an officer refuses, they can just call the POTUS or SoD and hand over the phone so the general can be yelled at. :)
My point is, it’s a reasonable guess that Faulk is not speaking yet because he knows what sort of headache this can be. There’s some reason that these suits have been allowed to be in here. Maybe they’re legislators instead of in the executive branch, and instead of being able to speak on behalf of the President, they can make Archon’s life miserable if they do not get their way. Like… maybe they’re Senators in the Appropriations Committee or the Armed Services Committee (pretty sure Archon needs their funds), or Homeland Security Committee.
“If the President wanted to just take the ship there would not be a negotiator arguing it. There would be Archon fencing the thing off and Faulk up to his armpits in underlings as that is mobilized.”
Do you really think that the Fel Ship is not currently fenced off already?
I know they are being obtuse on purpose because they are fixated on the profit they hope to make, but seriously guys, you didn’t even have proof aliens existed until a week ago, what makes you so sure their technology doesn’t emit some kind of energy or radiation your equipment isn’t sophisticated enough for to detect?
What makes you think the military hasn’t been sitting on proof this whole time and just didnt tell anybody because it wasnt relevant?
You saw werewolves, vampires, ghosts, and super heroes. Are space aliens really that out of this world?
We’re talking years, at least.
I see what you did there…
Considering they have an extraterrestrial in their employ (Xureiel AKA Dabbler) they have been sitting on the existence of ETs.
Halo could get in trouble for walking in and butting into a conversation above her pay grade. OTOH, if they were holding it somewhere the shouting could be heard outside the door, maybe not.
I’m betting one of the TLA guys starts acting wonky in the middle of a rant, and it’s “OK, I see what you mean.” time.
Dude, the door is open.
Actually, there is not even a door.
Worst restricted meeting. ever.
Would you believe… that the room has its own cone of silence installed?
So Control finally fixed the bugs? Now they can hear while inside it. They just need to work on the ‘not hearing outside it” part.
If they can hear inside it, and people outside can hear sounds that originate inside it, it’s really more of a Cone of Pretend You Can’t Hear Us more than a Cone of Silence, isn’t it?
Even worse, Sydney Scovile Jr. just walked out of that meeting. Any hope of keeping the meeting confidential is quickly disappearing.
lol, I just realized that. Yes. Not that good at keeping this private :)
He doesn’t want THAT ship, he wants the tech. The way to GET the tech is to unambiguously OWN that ship… and then to trade it away to Cora for equal tech that is therefore galactically legal to receive.
Yup. Nailed it. Not sure why other comments don’t understand this obvious loophole.
And the insoluble problem that the idiot has is that Cora doesn’t want the ship, she’s just offering to get rid of it. She has pointed out that left alone the ship remnants may destroy life on earth and the suited idiot (who can’t imagine someone not wanting burnt out wreckage) takes that as a threat from her.
It’s hard to argue with stupid. He has no leverage at all.
And the humorous thing is that while he won’t be able to get any bone of any sort using the ship pieces to negotiate…Archon will be able to gain quite a lot bargaining with the services of earth supers.
The dumbasses stomped in there and maligned the very people who have the chips to negotiate for what they want.
I think a valid interpretation of this is “playing chicken.” He knows Cora *can’t* share any tech. It’s not a matter that’s even up for negotation; it’s an intergalactic treaty. However, he does happen to have some tech he can’t use, but can legally trade. He also knows Cora personally owns a space ship capable of destroying what she calls an intergalactic menace (the Fel). He furthermore knows Cora basically led these intergalactic menaces to a closed world and then forcing said closed world to fight off said menace while contributing little more than a weak shield.
He therefore wants to trade Cora’s presumably prestigious reputation for technology on the premise that she brokers actual tech he can use for the tech he can’t use. Basically she owes him (him acting as a representitive of Earth), and he’s willing to imply that he’ll let the planet turn into a brand new intergalactic threat just to get what he wants. She has no way of knowing he won’t and no reason to avoid the tech brokering except for a little loss of time and cash on her part.
If Cora thinks the rest of his race is anything like Sydney then Cora would be sweating bullets. She would be, on an intergalactic level, personally responsible for wiping out a planet and turning it into a Fel Hive. And let’s be honest, if our movies are any indication, we’d probably not only turn into a Fel hive, but a BETTER Fel hive, because we love experimenting with shit we don’t understand. Additionally, Cora knows that at least one Earth inhabitant can single-handedly destroy her ship in seconds, while another can personally make instant wormholes and teleport to wherever Cora may be found. Within the atmosphere, no less, meaning she’d be vulnerable any time she’s not on her ship. And if Syd somehow became Fel, well, the universe is probably doomed, considering the intergalactic races are already struggling against the Fel without the Fel having living ship-busters on their side. Plus, what if Fel-Sydney grew more arms? :shudder: Their only hope would be to use Max (or a planetary nuke) to off Fel-Sydney before she gained more experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sgDBy84mSc
None of which is worth the risk. Cora’s just not backing down because that would be bad negotiation.
Daniel here. So the Alien visitor is warning about corrupting energy coming from the ship, their resident Alien scientist/warrior is telling them it’s dangerous, but the bigwigs are ignoring both. They also have essentially the Twilight Council’s Alien Ambassador Representative, maybe ask him? If he gives basically the same info………those guys are STILL going to ignore it, aren’t they…?
Only until they get what they want. Hopefully, Dave has a slightly smarter grade of intelligence exec there. Ownership of THAT ship is a stepping stone.
I mean, yeah? Why assume that he is a moron despite making General? They want to take the ship off their hands, they cant use force, they cant challenge the claim via the native legal system. The only way that they can get the USA to give up the ship is by the USA’s own choice. So if they really want to dispose of it they need to give the USA something in exchange for getting rid of it.
This sounds like the classic debate between we want it so it’s ours and you can’t have it because it’s dangerous.
Trust Sydney to be the most grown-up about it by saying I’m going to go work at my comic book store.
Well, I was going to say something about priorities but Sydney’s been away from the shop for months.
If Archon’s charter says anything to the effect of ‘all threats foreign and domestic’ they have jursidiction.
A phone call from The President would support that.
(Kind of pushing the ‘suspension of disbelief’ to get a good decision. )
Sydney going to her shop on Wednesday mornings was part of her deal on joining
Um you forget that time goes slower. This is only months after establishing comic showing Obama is President.
Nope, Jayessell did not forget. Sydney has indeed been gone for a long time, there was a time slip in addition to the distance slip that got her to the Alari homeworld. More than one-month’s-worth of time.
So a question of IRT versus GrrlPT: The last time we saw him, POTUS was BHO. GPT that was just a couple of months ago. How do you keep track of real time political/cultural/news, etcetra, with the necessary delays of online publishing?
I get that Maxima’s feat gave them a surge of confidence, but I believe it was told before that Dabbler can fight her to a standstill. Threatening alien civilizations on the basis of a single individual who is not undefeated (and might not comply to every orders) seems unwise.
Also, they should know better than using American Laws in a claim against aliens. We have enough history to know that laws and traditions from a less advanced civilization are worth peanut. That’s Bigger Gun Diplomacy. Even if Maxima is strong, I’d say an antimatter mass driver is enough of a threat.
It’s a good thing they haven’t been read in on Sydney’s latest adventure or they’d be trying to get her. Why just take a wrecked ship when you have a working ship we already own. We can reverse engineer anything!
I would venture to guess that Dabbler can fight her to a standstill mainly because Maxima has never been actually trying to kill her. At Maxima’s level of super-speed, the only real defense is either having super speed yourself, or being insanely durable so that you can take the hits without having time to prepare for them.
Dabbler is neither. The truth is, Maxima could have taken her, but not without a level of violence that would almost certainly have seriously injured her, which she wouldn’t do in a sparring situation.
It is quite possible dabber has a spell of some sort to negate or weaken super speed, or possibly those bondage missiles, while max can snap them, she can’t in speed mode.
Orgasm ray… bypasses all defense, and can completely incapacitate and or cause loss of consciousness (involuntarily uses the strength of the victim against itself). Based on Dave’s tendencies, I’m going to guess that Maxima would not be immune.
Something like the Niven “Made Their Day” gun from the Ringworld Series?
Yeah, but it’s Maxima. If an actual enemy did that to her, she’d rip them in half like a phone book as soon as she was able to move again.
(Reminder: she’s been shown as having sexual desires… but she’s very touchy about things like “informed consent.” Dabbler gets away with shit because A: Maxima and Dabbler are friends and it’s good natured teasing, and B: Maxima smacks Dabbler through a wall whenever she goes too far with the good natured teasing)
We have no details about the fight, other than it ended in a stalemate
Remember, Dabbles has access to a fucking hand-held rail-crossbow, plus spells like ‘sticky-air’, doesn’t matter how fucking fast you are if you can’t move, and all Dabbles would need do is hold her long enough to pull the trigger: Maxi may be able to shunt all her power into one ability if needed, butt doubt she can do it fast enough
It was actually beneath one of the many many pages detailing the fight against Vehemence that some details about that stalemate were pointed out.
Basically, Dabbler subjected Max to a constant attack that forced her to go full-armor, and in that state she was no longer fast or strong enough to overcome Dabbler’s own defenses. And Dabbler’s reflexes have been shown to be at superhuman levels, so its very possible that even if Max blitzed her at full speed, she could get up a shield in time–that of course assumes that she doesn’t have access to “Craft Contingent Spell” and all the shenanigans that one can get up to with that kind of thing.
We do know for certain that Dabbler has lots of spells for shenanigans.
True, Dabbler most likely isn’t as fast as Maxima. However, she is an extremely intelligent and experienced adventurer. Super Speednisnt thenonly defense against her. If Dabblernhas any advance warning she has a multitude of spells available to create traps. Maxima isnt shown to be immune to illusions, and cant pierce invisibility. Maxima could be like this world’s Suoerman, in that she could have a vulnerability to magic..
And if Dabbler had lots of time to prepare…well, remember how she mentioned, when fighting Vehemence, that if that fight had been an orgy she could have taken the team with one hand behind her back? Kind of like how Batman could take Superman if given time and resources to prepare.
Sorry about this. Was meant to be a single point and it kind of got away from me there.
Do you want Cerberus?Because playing with evil telepatic alien wracks is how you get Ceberus.
Ok so this is one thing I hate in media. The government would indeed WANT the technology. But the idea of serious harm coming from it would make them hesitate. When two ALLIED extraterrestrial beings are telling us that it is more dangerous than a nuclear weapon, our military is more than likely going to listen. We may ask if there is ANYTHING on the ship we may have, as is our right to salvage as they mention, but we would not be fighting them like this. Well most of the people wouldn’t. It is possible for this to just be this one guy’s idiocy but generally media loves to portray the government and military as WAY more reckless with things they don’t understand than they would be. Also this is a scenario that is DIRECTLY under the purview of the President of the United States. No one in congress actually can do much other than advise the President on what they think would be prudent. Seeing how ARC is a military branch and Dabbler is employed in it, I know for certain the President had to ok her contract with the US Air Force PERSONALLY since she is from another world and there is no nation on Earth to run background checks and such with. They would have had to meet her and talk with her and then decide to allow her to work in ARC. Meaning they are more likely to listen to her counsel on the issue than push like this.
I can’t help but wonder if they’re not playing hardball(seemingly badly?) to either clearly establish precedent in this sort of thing, or get the other side to cough something up in return. Maybe even both?
Exactly. Just because you don’t really WANT a Fel ship doesn’t mean that you don’t NEED a Fel ship to justify what you’ll trade for.
Back in the 1990s, someone I thought was a terrible, crass exec at a previous company… very Trumplike… once played multiple vendors off each other and got, literally, free top end server hardware from two vendors “to do a head-to-head comparison”. Instead of paying for either. At that point, i realized I had zero clue how to tell a good exec.
Don’t feel bad about that. Most regular citizens don’t know how to tell a good exec. They only see through a lens of the outside looking in and what they see is interpreted as “GREED!!” when it’s actually smart business moves to make sure your business doesn’t lose money/go under.
There are examples of pure greed, but usually it’s all about ensuring the business is a success and that means saving money where possible while maximizing value. If they don’t they go under. And that means lost jobs for those average citizens who previously bemoaned their CEOs for being greedy and now bemoan them for not being greedy ENOUGH. It’s insanity born of ignorance.
Oh, I don’t feel bad. That was just when I acknowledged by Dunning-Kruger zone on the matter.
I never felt that *I* necessarily would be a good exec, but I thought I could recognize one.
These days, that guy would be pilloried because he was uncouth. Like, back in the early days of conference calls, he actually was talking from his home to the group at the business site… while in the bathroom peeing. We all looked at each other smdh.
Actually, Dabbles isn’t employed by Archon, she’s just there by her own choice, as the equivalent of a civilian contractor: she can leave any time she damn well pleases and doesn’t have to reveal shit she doesn’t want
To be fair “ALLIED” is stretching it. Dabbler is a civilian consultant. Basically a mercenary, they had somedoby following her “secretly” because they don’t trust her 100% (which is not unreasonable, if we are fair). And Cora is a alien, friend of Dabbler, she is not part of any official army or organizzation, she is a “freelance” ship captain, basically a ‘adventurer’ RPG style would you really consider something like her to be above pulling a “this teasure is dangerous, let me help ‘destroy’ it” scam on same primitive aliens? This is not the case, of course, but they can’t know that.
Dabbler pointed out she is a naturalized US citizen in the press conference right before the Fel ship arrived.
She is still a civilian consultant, just like Math (and possibly Leon)
Leon actually works for Archon far as I know (based on something Harem once said). But he might be civilian – just not a consultant. Civilians have worked for the different military forces (without being consultants) for… well… since the founding of the nation in 1776 really.
Here ya go. :)
https://m.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/army-civilian-careers.m.html
That’s why said “and possibly Leon”, knew he was a civilian, just wasn’t sure if was actually employed directly or not
Point doesn’t change the fact that Dabbles and Math can leave any time they damn will get bored (or pissed off enough with being lawyered around)
Yeah, I wasn’t arguing that they can’t leave whenever they want. Technically, I’m going to guess that so can most of the military at Archon. They can resign.
BUT…. if they do, remember, vigilantism is against the law, and if they fight crime with their powers (or if Math starts fighting superhuman criminals as a crimefighter, they will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Maxima herself said that at the press conference.
Before joining Archon, Math WAS engaging in a lot of illegal underground fights in search of worthy opponents. And Achilles, Mr. Amorphous, and Heatwave WERE vigilantes who were given the option of joining, stopping what they were doing, or being arrested.
Actually, no, we don’t know that. We just know that her story is consistent. We also know that Fel Artifacts have some value to Cora, because she has one on board, does not feel endangered by it, and hasn’t dropped it into a sun along the router.
It would not be out of character for Cora to get that hunk out of the atmosphere, strip a couple of choice items from it, THEN throw it into the sun.
Knowing Cora’s profession, I wouldn’t be surprised if she were to steal the wreck. Perhaps she’s right about the psychic contamination… Or perhaps she’s just looking to get the wreck away from the humans’ mobile planet buster; knowing her own ship obviously couldn’t resist such an absurd concentration of raw energy. Could be both.
She brought the contamination up when they were planning how to fight it, not later.
Good catch. Of course, I would still be concerned about her penchant for theft. Her comments during that fight implied she didn’t have the ability to break the shields of that ship nearly as cleanly as Maxima.
I’m just happy we finally get to see General Faulk again. Guy’s been offscreen for way too long.
The weird foreshortened angle of Cora’s left arm is making my eyeballs itch. It looks like it is atrophied.
I’m going to guess that Cora is being polite and not pointing out that they are indeed all there in that room, the wreck and her ship with tractor beams is outside with its crew, hopefully prepping to take off and toss the wreck into the sun regardless of what suit boy thinks and really neither Maxima nor General Faulk(?) are obliged to do jackshit without orders from the chain of command. Plus its one thing to down a carrier intent on ground assault & melee fun times and quite another to take down something that wants to leave and is armed with anti-matter mass drivers, Cora didn’t say they couldn’t fire in atmo, just that it would be rude if she did.
Cora’s free to go ahead and try to threaten the US. Maxima even held Krona (which was something I DID consider to be illegal, since Krona is a US citizen far as I know, and also is protected by a treaty between the Council and the US), so what makes you think she would not hold Cora if she started threatening to use anti-matter mass drivers against the US?
The suit is just making the statement because Cora is doubling down on how they cannot keep the Fel ship, despite all law pointing to the fact that yes, they most definitely CAN. If Cora’s going to double down, the opposition will as well – it’s a negotiating tactic.
I’m not saying Cora should make the threat, I am saying that suitguy should realise that whilst Maxima is a great asset he is writing a cheque that she may not be able to cash..at least not without breaking a large part of the state they are in.
In short he is getting cocky because Maxima took down a ship that was choosing to not use its main armaments and remain stationary because it was manned by Orks/Khornate marines, I don’t think Cora or her crew would do either of those things if things got messy but they would feel bad about the 10s or 100s of thousands of civilian casualties that resulted.
Also Maxima is not invulnerable and I don’t imagine she really wants to test the “can I tank antimatter” theory without a damn better reason than bureaucratic dick waving and the desire to steal what seems to amount to a Chaos vessel.
In re: Maxima is not invulnerable: exactly so. She wasn’t maxing her invulnerability against Blonde Bombshell, and got her back popped and felt pain from an attack that was deliberately toned down because BB’s “overnuke” (her most powerful attack) would have killed everyone at the battle if she’d have detonated it where Max was located. BB said that exploding bolo attack would have “cut a tank in half.” So, if an attack whose blast wave didn’t kill the non-invulnerable people in the restaurant parking lot (making allowance for BB saying it was a “shaped charge,” with most of the force directed at Max, though it would still deflect due to how tough she is) caused Max pain and cracked her back . . . probably a safe bet that a packet of antimatter fired at a sizeable fraction of light speed (anti-mass driver is still a mass driver (railgun)) could hurt or kill her. And that’s the main guns on Cora’s ship, which is presumably not in the same weight class as whatever the Xevoarchy sends out to spank planets that are messing up the galactic Feng Shui.
Actually I agree with you here Woodrobin. See? We can agree on some things. :)
Atomic Bombshell did NOT use her overnuke because, as she stated, that would not only kill Maxima, it would kill everyone there including the attackers. So instead, she used a ‘shaped charge.’ Which was still enough to hurt Maxima, although Maxima was not at full armor and she pretended that it did not hurt.
I would be willing to put at least a few bucks on the plasibility that if Atomic Bombshell went all out with an overnuke, whatever that is, it MIGHT be enough to kill Maxima. We don’t know for sure – it’s just conjecture at this point.
Peggy told Sydney that she met Maxima while both were recovering in from injuries (or in Peggy’s case losing her leg).
So obviously Maxima is not invulnerable and can be hurt.
We even know how, though I assume that how is an extremely closely guarded secret.
We also know there is at least one other super who Maxima ‘thinks’ is dead, but almost definitely is not given the splash page of the big bads, who probably is the reason Maxima was recovering from injuries. Or at least if someone made that guess, I would think it’s a pretty good guess.
As much as I appreciate Cora’s morphing her light suit to Earther casual,
she should be in uniform.
Or a made-up uniform. …they wouldn’t know.
When was it ever established that Cora was military? o_O
For all anyone knows, Cora IS in uniform. Modern men’s suits are essentially simplified Napoleonic-era military uniforms (the reason men’s suit coats have buttons on the sleeves is because Napoleon specified buttons to be sewn to his men’s sleeves so they wouldn’t wipe their faces on them), and what Cora is wearing may just be a few iterations further on. Just because we can’t see any rank insignia doesn’t mean she hasn’t any; someone with access to the kind of tech she has probably has access to a full dossier on anyone she looks at.
Maxima *whispered: “Permission to televise my kicking the ship into the sun for future galactic negotiations sir?”
General Faulk: “Granted.”
*Walks out of room while the idiot blithers on.
I will take “Things that would absolutely never happen because it’s illogical and inconsistent and creates more problems.” for $200, Alex.
(ಥ﹏ಥ) *: tries to stifle snicker :* (ツ)
Good to see General Faulke finally had time to shave :D
The suits are making an unwarranted assumption, to wit, that we could reverse-engineer ANYthing on the wrecked ship. An essay from long ago illustrated this. A supersonic drone is thrown 35 years into the past, to 1931 (I told you the essay was from long ago), due to flying into a time warp caused by the Chinese atom bomb test it was sent to observe. When it flew back to where its inertial navigation told it its base in the Philippines was and landed, all Hell broke loose. Not to mention that some of it was dangerously radioactive, with elements that were known to not have any unstable isotopes (the Neutron would not be discovered until the following year), and that the engine made no sense at all, other than that it had a fuel tank feeding it. The most germane thing about it, in regards to this discussion, was that not only did its electronics make no sense whatsoever, but even if you told the researchers that a transistor used impure Silicon to function, they could prove, by chemical analysis, that you were wrong (the “impure” Silicon used in transistors is purer than the laboratory-grade reagents available in 1931). Heck, the Soviet Union stole technology all through the Cold War, and could never quite equal the performance of the U.S. originals. Better to throw it into the Sun.
Precisely, my argument, from a past strip.
In my experience … be it governments, industrialists, or individuals … WILL ALWAYS … put their own self interests first … regardless of any future issues said decisions will cause.
Individuals will always take “free” money if will help them in the here and now regardless of future consequences (look at all the videos of people taking money from armored truck bags that happen to fall out).
People will always vote for what serves their current life and social issues … regardless of the cost to future generations.
Governments and industrialists will always take resources (be it raw materials or labor) from anyone and anywhere either directly or indirectly regardless of the cost to the environment or its people.
SO the attitude that this official has is no surprise to me … he (and whomever is above him) does care about any future consequences … EVEN IF … they had the proper tools to confirm the dangers that Cora has stated … they still would want access to the potential resources available … because somewhere in the back of their minds … it’s worth the risk (need to break a few eggs to make an omelet view point).
It’s not the tech that matters. What matters is the knowledge that humans’ tech is inferior.
That sentiment alone has driven human development throughout history. Our mere awareness of our inferiority has led to great leaps of knowledge in the last 100 years. What we’ve learned in this century has vastly outstripped everything learned in the last billion. We’re not talking stolen tech here, we’re talking stuff we developed ourselves. And while we were accomplishing this, most of the planet has remained saturated with crazies and lowlifes who’ve sought to destroy progress.
That’s human tenacity. Never underestimate us.
Sure. It’s not so much knowing how everything works, as knowing what’s POSSIBLE.
The next five years should see massive changes, even if we never got a chunk of that Fel ship.
By the way, chunks of that Fel ship are already wandering off to illicit labs all over the world, washing downstream to encounter wild animals, and generating other origin events.
After all, this is a comic book universe…
Greetings and salutations …
“It’s not the tech that matters. What matters is the knowledge that humans’ tech is inferior.”
Tech and Knowledge are a Resource … and yes while we know that our knowledge of said tech is inferior … and over the Millennia … the human race … has sought out additional fields of knowledge (again regardless of a any future consequence) it has always been at the expense of lives lost. Think of the hundreds of thousands if not millions that have been sacrificed over the years for said progress (in just weapons development alone … how many more in the development of new medicines). Again … immediate self interest and gains over any long term consequence. In addition … those gains were small foot steps NOT giant strides. That’s not to say giant leaps forward in tech/knowledge didn’t happen … baby steps are the rule … not the exception. And … yes Human tenacity is great … but a pyrrhic accomplishment is never worth it and has stop human innovation in its steps … along with religious dogma and other “morals & ethics”.
As to what I said … They want the tech/knowledge (immediate self interest) … and don’t care if it could cost the lives of thousands or even millions … because they are ignorant of the dangers … and even though they are being told what those dangers are … they are being arrogant because they feel they can take the necessary precautions to use said tech/knowledge … and even if they can’t … the ends justify the means (eggs … omelets). Think of back to when you were a child … “don’t eat all that candy it will rot your teeth” … “don’t touch that it’s hot” … “don’t climb that you could fall down and get hurt” … what does a child do … satisfies immediate self interest be it hunger, curiosity, or achievement … a child doesn’t care about the possible future consequence … and when it comes to something like the discovery of advance tech/knowledge … we behave just like children.
BUT … that is not what John C. is stating.
In my interpretation (opinion) … he is stating … EVEN IF … we had access to the knowledge and technology (even without the danger) we wouldn’t even be able to decipher the technology … only make crude imitations of the said technology with the tech/knowledge at our disposal. ( ” Heck, the Soviet Union stole technology all through the Cold War, and could never quite equal the performance of the U.S. originals.” )
It’s a fantasy to think that we would be able to reverse engineer anything that was technological superior to what we have at our disposal in the here and now.
Again … just because you have access and want the tech/knowledge doesn’t mean you can replicate (or reverse engineer it … HECK we STILL haven’t figured out Roman concrete … and that was made over a thousand years ago… not to mention Greek fire).
The Soviets couldn’t replicate American weapons accuracy, so they built a bomb that couldn’t miss: one detonation, one France-sized region. Tsar Bomba. Upon detonation it shattered windows on houses 2,200km away.
At half yield.
Sometimes, not having access to original tech can lead to far more terrifying weapons.
Hey Sydney!!! Just open a hyperspace causeway directly underneath. Nobody knows you can do that. Then have a couple of people from the shadow council or something dress up as “Space Cops” and claim Jurisdiction.
Or, just wait for the two legit Space Cops to pop up from behind the cloud they have been hiding behind this whole time
Sydney didn’t use a causeway to jump straight to Earth because the Earth destination (the last place the orbs went before she found them underwater with no evidence of the body of the previous wielder) was on the fritz. Her default assumption should probably be that opening a causeway either to or from Earth would be a Bad Idea until someone can figure out what went wrong.
Oh, and in before the idiots start complaining about how this is boring and to get back to the action
Not boring to me! I love how Dave works out the logical consequences of superheroes and alien invasions in his webcomic. Pages like these are among the most interesting for me.
Clearly, you are not an idiot :D
Anything where I get to argue about law and play devil’s advocate for a strawman that has a good point is definitely not boring to me. :)
Without the technological ability to produce the ship components, gaining possession of the ship is meaningless.
Giving the plans for building a steam locomotive to the Romans would have done them no good. They lacked the metallurgy to produce the steel. They lacked the machining capability to make parts for it.
Giving a cell-phone to one of the armies in WWII would have done nothing. The various countries didn’t have the ability to examine or replicate any parts.
They also didn’t have the towers and infrastructure to support its use.
From Terminator 2:
Miles Dyson (about the chip from the first T-800): It was scary stuff, but radically advanced. I mean, it was smashed, it didn’t work, but…it gave us ideas, took us in new directions. I mean, things we would have never…All my work was based on it.
Looks like Sydney is bored by these proceedings and heads off to her comic shop….!
Hopefully Maxima is okay with that,or will she try to stop her???
Again, Wednesday mornings spent at the shop is specifically written into her contract
Playing devil’s advocate here, but if Cora and Dabbler’s tech can detect this psychic radiation, why don’t they explain why there is no way to remove it and it’s required to toss it into the sun? Also, we don’t know who this “suit” is. He could be a representative of the secretary of defense or the secretary of defense himself.
Because there might actually be no way to remove it. Magic and alien technology do have some limits.
Five words.
“Fel Artifact of Unspeakable Cuddles”
Clearly they have SOME protection against Fel Tech, unless Cora and her crew have been corrupted. :)
Or it’s slow acting or they something that’s only a temporary measure.
Judging from the general’s pseudo-submissive posture, this suit is pretty high up.
Almost certainly a representative of president Obama himself. I’m surprised he didn’t show up in person for negotiations of this magnitude.
Pretending to be perhaps.
But we have seen in strip that the president communicates directly with Faulk (and how could it be otherwise, given the stakes and the capability of Archon personnel) so even if these guys have authority from somewhere they didn’t consult with the president first on this visit.
Ahhh… winamp. I remember using that piece of software, some 15 or 20 years ago. Visualization included. Neat toy.
Also, I expected splash page for a new chapter today (previous instances where Sydney woke up in the middle of a night and bothered someone with inane questions were chapter breaks too, I think).
Yeah, miss WinAmp, still need to get our old PC going and convert CDs to mp3 (had a program that would convert a CD at around 10x speed ie a 60 minute CD copied in 6 minutes)
It took more time making the playlists than burning the CD itself :P
I preferred Sonique myself though I had to switch to winamp later. Now neither. Yay tech advances and old programs you have no use for these days :(
Cora’s ship is property of whatever jurisdiction Archon happens to reside in by way of civil asset forfeiture.
Or they could declare it an emergency and seize her ship for the duration under the Right of Angary.
I think this would represent an excessive fine and thus be prohibited by the Eighth Amendment.
How by any stretch of the imagination would this be an excessive fine? Impounding happens quite frequently, often for not paying outstanding parking tickets, and is constitutional, let alone threats of theft of government property by a foreign force. And thats only one of about 5 arguments that I can think of off the top of my head about why the 8th amendment does not apply here at all.
“the guy standing next to Maxima is Irradon, who is the Twilight Council’s alien representative.”
If the bureaucrats wanted to be even more dickish, could they demand to see Irradon’s visa or then arrest him as an ‘illegal alien’?
Also, human laws apply to humans. Do off-worlders even have any legal rights as persons instead of just animals? But then again, if we found out penguins had access to nuclear weapons we would want to be pretty careful about ticking them off.
In the US, at least, you don’t have to be human to be a legal person. In comic, the fact that there is some sort of contract with Dabbler means that aliens have specifically been determined to be legal persons.
Here’s the thing.
Even if the ship is as dangerous as they say, IF! It represents Earths one and only chance to realistically protect itself from say, alien space pirates. Or slavers. Or genocidal maniacs. Yeah Maxima took it out in one shot, but if someone shows up to blow up everything or threaten to do as such if they dont say, give up a million earth children to be delicately consumed alive on the Planet of the Space Hedonists, what is Maxima going to do? She cant be everywhere, she has limitations just like everyone else.
She cant get to Europe fast enough before they get turned into pavement. Dabbler, their civilian contractor aliendemonangelperson, refuses to share any of the details of her stuff with them. They have no choice but to take her word for it and she has already hidden things from them, actively hides stuff from them, and continues to hide stuff from them.
In the long term, this fel ship may be worth the risk in their eyes. After all, the Nahuatl did not do very well after making first contact with the Spanish. It was what, 80% lethality BEFORE the slavery, and the abuse, and the neglectful working conditions? What if the Space Spanish are coming, we cant just rely on Maxima to be our superman. We HAVE to be able to stand on our own or we are putting lots of people in what appears to be very real risk.
As for the laws? The laws dont apply to them and he isnt citing the laws for their benefit. The ship crashed on their territory downed by their weapons. Even if the only thing it will do is go sit in a museum its theirs by right and by might. I would take it too damn the risks.
Even if Archon isn’t part of their chain of command, Cora does not know that. It is a useful negotiating tactic to apply pressure. At the VERY least, the ship is a negotiating tactic. Dabbler and Cora don’t want the Human Beans to have it, they do want to have it, and they have the firepower to back up their claim. Neither Cora nor Dabbler can just take the ship from them if they dont want to let it go.
So the only option left for Cora and Dabbler, is to either try their luck (Dabbler fought Maxima to a standstill, Dabbler could occupy Maxima for Cora). or to give the Humans something else they want in exchange for letting the ship go. If the ship is as useless to them as they claim, and as dangerous as they claim, then they would be willing to part with useful technology in exchange for the USA letting them take it off their hands.
The laws? Just another negotiating tactic, the General is ensuring that they cannot challenge the claim inside Americas own court system. Maxima? Another negotiating tactic, the General is ensuring that they cant just take it by force and do as they please. Dabbler saying that it is clearly dangerous? She doesn’t let them so much as look at her alien coffee machine, how do we know this isn’t more of the same and you guys arent in cahoots for your own ends or to keep us in the dark?
So yeah, I think the General is being very smart about this.
The only General in that room is saying nothing, and note which side of the table he is sitting on
Talking about ownership and salvage rights, those belong to Maxi, and if she chooses to fight for it, she would win: when she shot the ship down, she wasn’t in uniform so wasn’t representing Archon nor the US Government
I’d disagree with your last point, Guesticus. A soldier not being in uniform when they go into combat does not change their status as soldier. The whole restaurant fight was out of uniform, but they operated as a military unit, and were not culpable as civilians for any damage or other adverse ramifications. The last HAS to be part of their contract, or they’d be in SO much trouble every week in a superhero universe.
” A soldier not being in uniform when they go into combat does not change their status as soldier. ”
Actually, under the Geneva convention it does, but the Fel aren’t in any condition to press the point.
The Geneva convention regarding wearing of uniforms is for soldiers engaging or preparing to engage in offensive operations. Maxima was engaging in defensive operations as the Fel were the belligerent party. The Geneva convention does not require soldiers engaging in defensive operations to be in uniform for obvious reasons.
It would be a hard case to make that the people defending against the Fel were illegal combatants under Geneva.
They made no attempt to hide their combatant status, and, by the way, the Fel were attacking civilians anyway.
What civilians were the Fel attacking? Only saw them firing upon Cora’s ship, and then upon landing be immediately attacked by Archon
Main point is, if anyone can lay claim to the Fel ship, it is the one who brought it down: Maxi, regardless if she is representative of the US Government or it’s Military, unless she formally relinquishes her rights to the salvage, it is hers to do with as she sees fit
Since she captured the ship, does this make her the new Dread Pirate Robert(a)?
That’s literally not how it works Guesticus. She brought it down while she was in her function as a soldier working for a branch of the US military (ARCHON), which falls under the purview of the US government. So the US government (and the US military’s leadership, which is ultimately ordered by the civilian Commander in Chief, namely the President) decides what to do with it – not Maxima.
“It represents Earths one and only chance to realistically protect itself from say, alien space pirates. Or slavers. Or genocidal maniacs.”
No, it represents a 100% chance of the human race being horribly mutated into an alien Hivemind and then bombarded.
Seriously, what is so hard to understand about; “If you touch this it will wipe your whole species.”
Exactly. In effect, Cora is wanting to tow a ship infested with the plague out to sea, burn it and sink it. The government suit is arguing that they should board it and take the cannons, gunpowder, sails, etc. (without a tech level high enough to replicate said cannons and gunpowder, and without knowledge of windage, trimming sails, sea navigation, et al).
His counter to the plague argument is that he doesn’t necessarily believe in bacteria or viruses, or even understand what they are. Oh, and he doesn’t believe that what he’s seeing through the microscope Dabbler has because she isn’t allowed to teach him all the optics, germ theory, etc. he’d need to understand how it works . . . and he’d be dead of the plague long before she could teach him all of it if she started now . . . and he’d still disregard it because those long, hard cannons excite him for reasons that totally aren’t about compensating for anything, really.
The police showed up, which makes me think that we are within their jurisdiction. I’m guessing that there are requirements for representation, ambassadors, minimum education standards and/or care, etc.
At very least, they should provide us with access to, or a copy of the laws that they expect us to follow.
… I think that this is the reason why people are arguing strongly regarding this point.
Holding a gun to one’s own head to prove it may be stupid, but I’ll bet it will be effective.
Unless the gun goes off. Then it’s just stupid.
“Showed up” – not to us, they haven’t. This is above their pay grade… and there’s no indication whether they could have taken the Fel ship if they caught it.
By the way, the gun isn’t pointed at our head. We’re just chatting about whether we get to pick it up, examine the trigger guard and look down the barrel.
Dabbler specifically said that she was CHOOSING not to give humanity her tech, back when she was a blonde explaining to Sydney her hypno-boobs. Not that she wasn’t allowed.
This is “won’t”, not “can’t”, which changes the calculation of motives and such. Even we readers have no reason to think that Cora isn’t “painting the lily” a bit. She’s explicitly an adventurer, no reason she shouldn’t grab a little extra profit from time to time.
Let’s face it, if Cora tractored the Fel ship off planet, then ripped out a few expensive sections before chucking the rest into the sun, would it surprise you? No one little bit, and you’d laugh with her at the local rubes.
Absolutely it would surprise me.
Because she has been chased by the Fel for a while, and appears to be sincere about the pervasive threat posed by the Stygian Energy Field.
When Dabbler said she was choosing not to share her tech, she was telling a reporter who was not cleared to know about aliens, the Xevoarchy, etc. a reason why the supposedly human Dabbler wasn’t going to share the specs on her rifle-sized mass driver. She was, at the behest of Arianna (and presumably up the chain to whomever made the decision about only revealing supers and not aliens) lying to the public via the reporter about what was actually going on.
The reason she gave was not the truth, but rather a cover story. The actual truth, which is what she was telling Sydney in the restaurant (during the hypno-boobs moment) is that there are rules (enforced by the Xevoarchy if necessary) against tech level contamination, especially in regards to pre-FTL civilizations. Dabbler referenced the Prime Directive as a comparison.
You seem to have blended the two explanations into a form where the cover story was given as the real story, which isn’t what happened.
The guy in the suit would have access to that information if he was cleared to know Dabbler’s actual nature. If he’s not cleared at that level, he’s basically the EPA guy from Ghostbusters: an authority figure with too little information to know the effects of flexing his authority, and an unwillingness to recognize he’s out of his depth.
All of the conversation points to the EPA guy explanation.
Yes. Very much so.
So we should proceed and call them mr Dunning and mr Kruger.
Maxima should dump the salvage on the moon. It solves both problems.
“Err on the side of profit.” Is he maybe a former Boeing executive?
Ferengi, check his lobes
Given the angle of the speaker’s face in the second panel, I don’t think that he’s looking into Cora’s eyes.
^_^
Given that Cora’s outfit is whatever she wants it to be, she intentionally went ‘business casual with lots of distracting cleavage’ for a little extra negotiating power.
Devils advocate time.. the government, through the auspices of the un-named government agency in question, is placing a perfectly reasonable claim on the downed Fel ship.
And the only argument the aliens are making for the government not keeping it is ‘a strange psychic alien radiation you cant detect that will corrupt you all if you keep it’, that is only being corroborated by OTHER aliens. Pony up some testimony from the psychics in ARC-LIGHT or ARC-DARK before the govt will start taking you seriously.
I suspect General Faulk will do exactly that.
He has the means.
↑ I was thinking the same thing!
*: Cocks Eyebrow:*
Also, is this Sydney’s first appearance at the shop since the whole time slip debacle? I suppose she and Joel have a lot to discuss. Clearly the “expect superheroes to appear” marketing ploy won’t work.
Unless Harem did show up from time to time to do some work. I think she said she might do that intermittently.
You do know the OSI was a real US government agency, not just the group from the Bionic Man/Woman series? They used to be the branch of the CIA that operated the SR-71 Blackbirds.
I totally love that you know that :)
Do we think that Dabbler’s equipment really whips the llamas ass?
Well… it’s Dabbler. I wouldnt put it past her to have have whips and llamas involved.
The biggest problem is he’s not wrong. He’s just going about it the wrong way. The most equitable solution would be to have someone from the US government go with them to maintain the salvage rights. And probably for Cora to leave some kind of collateral.
That would be a good negotiation tactic, yes :)
Yes, he pretty much is. He has no leverage.
Cora leaves in a huff and now a big chunk of toxic wreckage is left right next to Archon HQ.
And the moment it spews its first mutated conquistador, aliens from the council insure that it is leaked to the populace of earth (with just the right spin) just exactly how that came to be.