Grrl Power #735 – Reindeer games and the inclusion thereof
I think it was a fair question, to be honest. Leon maybe could have put it more delicately, but if you’re coming up with a comprehensive list of solutions to Sydney’s conundrum, that question should be asked at some point.
An unfair question, in my opinion, is “Why would you jump straight to that!?” Honestly, if the guy in a M/F/F triangle doesn’t consider the possibility of a threesome at some point… well, I don’t even know what to say to that. I’m not saying every guy in that situation would be bucking for it, some guys might be intimidated by the idea. I mean, there are performance considerations. But he’d still have the idea. Even if he thought it’d be disastrous, it’s probably on a lot of guys’ buckets lists. Heck, it might be on a lot of women’s bucket lists for all I know (though probably the M/F/M variant) but no one should honestly be surprised when a guy mentions it at some point. “Hah hah, I’m just kidding about a threesome, but seriously, what’s the deal with that? It’s a joke! But just for fun, let’s make a short list of your friends and sister… ow!”
So, can Krona hack people’s minds and personalities? Well, we know she can hack people’s bladders at any rate. If she hacked someone who didn’t like pickles so that they liked pickles, is she hacking their mind or their tongue?
The answer is, given Archon’s reaction to the news that she might be able to hack time, Krona has not been at all forthcoming as to the extent of her abilities. She doesn’t hold a grudge against Maxima, she understands what Archon was worried about, but she doesn’t want to give them any additional ammunition when it comes to evaluating her threat level. As for us readers, we’ll just have to wait and see.
Edit: Huh. Well, reaction to this page has caught me by surprise. I didn’t think anything of the ‘little girl gives guy a bonk on the head for acting like a dope’ trope but a lot of people are reacting like Sydney and Krona are attacking Leon with knives. Which, again, is surprising, considering that they’re not (cartoon bumps ≠ medical emergency) considering that Sydney could obviously cause grievous bodily harm if she wanted to. Krona could at the very least make Leon wet himself or make his keys move 10 feet from where he normally keeps them, and in my case that would mean they would effectively be lost forever.
Okay, so a few points. Some people are saying Leon isn’t even being included in the discussion, but Sydney’s question about monogamy was for both of them. It’s just that Leon jumped straight to the sexual aspect of it. Granted, both Krona and Sydney assumed that he’d be okay with it. They happened to be correct.
For anyone asking if it’d be okay if the situation was reversed and two guys were beating up on a girl? I mean, part of me wants to say that if it was playful little arm punches, in an ideal world free of all trace of sexism… yes? But that’s not the world we live in. In the real world, while there is such a thing as female on male violence, domestic or otherwise, I don’t think anyone can argue that a shitload more women get beaten or killed by men than the other way around. So no, of course the reversal of the above situation wouldn’t work.
But – I’ll give it some thought. It never occurred to me that this page would trigger such vehement reactions, so maybe that’s on me.
I have a book recommendation. This one is not a harem book nor does it have any sex in it (I know, who are you and what have you done with Dave, hah hah) but it is a superhero book, and I’ve been burning through the series ever since I picked up the first one. As you can see (or not, the thumbnail is kind of small) it’s called Arsenal, and is about a wheelchair bound super tinkerer who develops a suit of armor and proceeds to kick a lot of butt. (She can kick in the armor. And walk.) Of course she upgrades the armor constantly. I’m halfway through the 6th book, and I think she’s up to the Mark VII now? Good stuff. Oh, and half the books have egregious cliffhangers, so be prepared for that. :)
Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. $1 and up, but feel free to contribute as much as you like.
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SeriouslySeriously you guys. If you like Grrl Power the check these out.
"Mature"Mature subject matter and occasionally something explicit but usually safe. Can't guarantee the ads are safe though.
Dongs Ahoy!Full frontal and backal. Lots of skin, sex on some or all pages, explicit or otherwise.
Is the character on the page archive not working or is it only a recent addition cause even Sydney tag is only showing 19 answers when I click on it
It is a recent addition, so please do report any problems. In this case though I get 3 pages worth of results (covering 2017 to 2019), which does not go back to the beginning of the comic, but is a lot more than you are citing. Do note that the options to pick other pages is at the bottom of the page only (previously comics had such at both the top and bottom of the page, even though this feature did not exist at that time).
I suggest that you force your browser cache to clear (on Google Chrome and various other browsers you can use Ctrl +F5 to do this). Hopefully that will fix your issue. If it persists though please can you advise what browser you are using, plus any other specific info which may help Dave to debug it.
What you are doing Yorp, is clicking on the ‘halo03’ Tag link (which shows 141 results on three pages), rather than the ‘sydney’ Character link, which does only list 19 results (only going back as far as Feb 28th, 2019)
Ahh, I had not noticed that there were links at the top of the page, as well as the bottom, thanks.
Leon seems to be getting written as Neutral Stupid the last two strips. Yes, we get that he has limited relationship experience, but in what reality does ‘well, can’t you just alter your own mind/yourself so you are ok with it’ NOT crash and burn a relationship?
Never, because nobody can use superpowers to do that. OK we can try and tolerate things or otherwise change our own behaviour. However people can make silly comments when having to deal with things outside of their experience. Leon mainly works with computers, so they are his area of expertise. However he does come into contact with supers peripherally (for instance helping to set up the on-site combat analysis at the battle of the steakhouse carpark), but that is far less frequent.
Worsened, in this case, by Krona having a totally unique power, the limits of which very few people understand (including Krona herself, up until very recently). So, especially with his dick mind being on other things, it is understandable that he made such a bad faux pas.
Still deserves his (manga*) bumps on the head mind.
* In the stylised tradition of male characters acting inappropriately and being met with extreme physical violence. Which gets a pass due to the cartoon style and it being so rediculously over the top that it could not be taken realistically (by sensible people anyhow). Overall the message that ‘this is wrong’ is being conveyed, even if it is itself being done in a politically incorrect way.
In the El Goonish Shive webcomic, girls were able to summon hammers (big warhammer-looking things) with which to wallop males who deployed inappropriate humor. The hammers were a “gift” of an Immortal/fairy named Jerry, who had to take them back when he approached the age of reset. http://egscomics.com/comic/2010-06-30
Read a couple pages past the linked comic for most of the story. “Hammerchlorians”
Ironically, Jerry did it to assuage his own guilt over his love of inappropriate jokes and remarks, and because he found that allowing and encouraging a non-injuring immediate physical response for women made himself and other men feel less guilty and encouraged more and more frequent inappropriate remarks. Needless to say, that revelation didn’t go over well with Susan, who had assumed they were meant to empower women, instead of defusing their anger and encouraging bad behavior.
Better binge-read the whole comic, because it is awesome ;)
Remember that Leon has extremely limited romantic relationship experience. Halo and Krona are basically throwing him into the deep end of love triangles when he hasn’t even got the whole dating thing down yet.
Sydney basically asked Kronachrome to do the same thing, all Leon did was suggest using her powers to make it easier (she did just say she would think about changing how she felt about it)
It didn’t help that they were ‘Talking Around’ Leon.
Zack Tilly! Been saying that since the first comment, before people started going on the Domestic Violence nonsense
I can’t get past the “BOOT TO THE HEAD” panel…
Remember it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFldBVWFgWo
Trying to forget any version of that crap song
not a song, a skit, where a lawyer is reading a last will and instead of giving money to the relatives in the room, was giving…. boots to the head
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vFldBVWFgWo/hqdefault.jpg
Same difference: shit skit
guesticus go jump in a lake with that attitude. boot to the head is amazing! additionally, to both of you, the link OP posted is to the second such skit, which yes features a last will and testament. the “song” boot to the head is from the first skit entitled tai kwan leap. https://youtu.be/ajEOZ4tBqjQ
Thank you kind sir for your help with ….sticus, he was indeed very rude ^_^
btw, I was looking at that video and it left too much to the imagination so I looked at the suggested videos next to it and saw this one that made me replay the first few boots and giggle far too much…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMIfAmQYig8
It’s dreadful. Work on your taste.
First and foremost: If you’re a man who’s experienced any kind of partner abuse, or sexual abuse… you are not alone.
If you happen, on top of that, to live in the greater St Louis area, I run an informal support group. It’s mostly peer support – I’m a sexual abuse survivor myself – so there’s no pressure, and no judgements. Just… someone you know can listen, and understand.
We welcome anyone, but our focus is on those who have nowhere else to go – mostly men, but also several LGBT individuals. Please reach out if you need someone to talk to.
As for the comic: Honestly – there’s no reason you should’ve seen this coming. Your portrayal was, really, the norm… and also, in character.
We need that norm to change, but beating up on you isn’t the way. Talking about it is. Thank you for allowing us to.
So, here’s the bullet points:
1 – We exist. In fact, we’re more common than you think. Studies with sample sizes in the 300,000+ person range have found that intimate partner abuse is pretty well 50/50.
Keep in mind, abuse is way more than hitting someone hard enough to hospitalize. Controlling behaviors like isolating your partner from family, friends, support structures. Abuse can be verbal, mental, emotional, not just physical. Threats can be social or legal, not just physical.
While physical abuse resulting in serious injury (requiring hospitalization) does seem to be male-abuser more often… but again, not as much more often as you think: it’s a 60/40 split.
And “minor” forms of abuse (everything else) seem to be female-abuser more often… and again, it’s closer than you’d think.
2 – The problem is that men are less prepared (socially) to seek help in the first place… and when, on the rare occasion they do, are less likely to get it.
There are more shelters for women in my county than there are for men on my continent. Support services for us are even weaker than for the LGBT community, and that’s saying something, cause they’re insanely under-supported.
Studies have found that men who seek help when their partner turns abusive are MORE LIKELY to be arrested than their abuser.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3175099/
It’s not that serious abuse doesn’t happen – it’s that we’re intentionally blind to it.
And we could afford to do a better job supporting everyone. Period. I don’t want to fight with the LGBT community for support table-scraps. They need help too, and I don’t want to be the reason they don’t get it.
3 – The only way we fix this is by talking about it – and being honest about it.
That’s going to be uncomfortable for a LOT of people. It’s going to mean admitting to some pretty terrible stuff that, right now, seems normal. It’s going to mean redefining the way we talk about abuse, in a way that’s gender-neutral.
Emphasis on that last. The CDC still qualifies “rape” as a crime where the attacker penetrates the victim. This means, for example, that when I was intentionally drugged (viagra and roofies) and mounted by a woman while I was incapable of resisting… it doesn’t count as rape.
The woman who set those standards (Mary Koss) has even gone on record saying that it probably shouldn’t be a crime, or at worst, be a misdemeanor (“unwanted touching”). She defends this by saying that men, by default, are less traumatized by having sex forced on them – saying that even if you held a gun to our head or drugged us, it’s not as big of a deal.
And that’s not one nutcase with a little authority. A lot of people think along similar lines. The woman who did it to me thought it was ok, simply because I was a guy, and all guys must all want it all the time, right? The fact that I didn’t want it, and had turned her down… made me defective in her eyes, and she drugged me so she could help “fix” my defect.
If we want real equality AND we want to treat women better than we do right now… well. That kind of thinking needs to die in a fire.
There are too many problems with people freaking out about the violence against men this page…like, seriously, there are so so many anime that you could be complaining to right about now that have the exact same schtick going on every other page or minute (manga vs anime). Cartoon violence isn’t normally expected to go through such scrutiny. At worst DaveB could be accused of not making it cartoony enough for some people.
I want to add, I am not trying to downplay the problems you are experiencing, or males in general. But this is not the place to start your revolution. (Note: I am a male, and while I haven’t experienced such…displeasure…I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, and you have my condolences for the experiences that you have had)
There’s a reason I put the talking points below my main reply, and you’ve sort of hit on it. (I think?)
I don’t know there is a right place to start “my” revolution – or any revolution. I mean. Kind of the point of revolutions is that they come out of ugly and uncomfortable places.
But that said – I’m not interested in bludgeoning people with this. That’s a turn-off for most people, and doesn’t help the cause… so it’s not my main post.
Look at what is my main post though… a simple call, to anyone who has experienced such trauma, that they aren’t alone… and a note on where they can get help if they want it.
If even one person hears that, and is comforted by it… is given cause to reach out, and find help for their trauma… I don’t care what else comes of it. I don’t care who else felt what about my reaching out like that.
And I don’t think we need an excuse for such calls.
Nor does DaveB need to feel bad that I took the opportunity to make one.
I mean… there’s an episode of Seinfeld where Kramer gets involved in rooster fights. It’s played for laughs, and it’s never made to be “a good thing” that Kramer did. If an animal abuse awareness ad happens to air on that episode… what’s the problem? Should the writers of the episode feel bad? No. Should the episode be altered or removed from the lineup? No.
You keep it, and you cross your fingers that no one was stupid enough to watch it and think animal fight rings are ok…
…and you, as a completely separate thing, hope the ad helped save some animals from abuse.
They said much the same thing to Dr King.
They asked for patience, said it wasn’t as bad as he claimed, and for him to leave them alone and stand up for blacks elsewhere.
He responded in “Letter from a Selma, Alabama, Jail”.
It’s worth a read.
Such as the fact that every Dragonball arc since Son Goku grew up has him getting smacked around by either Chi Chi or Bulma at some point.
You are downplaying it, and it is not up to you to decide what the appropriate place is. Every abuse victim should speak up at every opportunity, especially when others dont want them to, and extra especially when they have absolutely zero other outlet or recourse, as is overwhelmingly the case for male victims certainly, and plenty of other people besides.
I think people reacted to it strongly here because it seems really out of place with what has otherwise been a comic big on gender equality and generally inclusive.
Plus, it feels ooky that the author reaction to this observation wasn’t “Hey, it’s a comic, not real life”, which would have been fine, but what basically amounts to “it’s fine if it’s a depiction of violence against men, since that’s infrequent in real life, while women on men would not be ok since it’s frequent”.
The reasons against depicting such things – reasons I do not adhere to, but that are usually stated nonetheless – are “it’s normalizing violence” and “It hurts survivors”.
Both stand even when the event is infrequent.
In short, the comic in itself did not offend me – depict what you want when you want it, in my book – but the reasons used to justify the depiction against criticism, albeit criticism I do not adhere to – Do.
Seems like you’re doing a bit of a disservice to Daves reasoning there, though. It wasn’t “they’re women, so it doesn’t matter”, and in fact seems like it was very specifically the OPPOSITE of that, regarding playful punches to the arm. Dave did (rightly) point out that the threshold of ‘playful hit’ tends to be a lot lower with one gender than the other…generally because of the physical differences involved. And in this case as well, Sydney and Krona are both very slight, small girls.
But that dovetails entirely with the other note. Which is that they both have access to incredible power, so it should be very clear that they’re not attempting any serious harm and the cartoon bumps are a denotion of ‘cartoony, immediate recovery with no lasting impact, ie, not realistic’. So, again, pretty much the opposite of what you say about it not being “because it’s a comic, not real life”. It is tom and jerry levels of gag.
The comic has plenty of more serious/realistic depictions of injury too, so it’s not some overall trend towards normalization of violence(beyond it’s existing superhero fight comic levels), and it has used the cartoony hitting before as well, so this isn’t some sudden shift either.
“seriously, there are so so many anime that you could be complaining to right about now that have the exact same schtick going on every other page or minute (manga vs anime).”
Yes, but I don’t read manga for just that reason – I found I didn’t like a lot of the tropes they use.
Dave uses a lot of manga tropes, most of which I dislike, but not enough that I stop reading.
This kind of thing, well, is much harder to ignore.
But maybe a small amount of controversy will be a good thing in the long run.
“Cartoon violence isn’t normally expected to go through such scrutiny.”
We’re all reading. How much scrutiny is too much?
“At worst DaveB could be accused of not making it cartoony enough for some people.”
Not the point. We’re not talking coyote/roadrunner, but stylized depictions of people. If they are stick figures, nonetheless, the whole point is that they are supposed to be depictions of people. Generally, I prefer my protagonists NOT be physically abusive…
Speaking of which:
Generally, I prefer my protagonists NOT be abusive. I don’t ask that they be perfect, and giving them room to grow and develop is fine. But even just verbally abusing him for perfectly reasonable questions?
He wasn’t even making suggestions, just asking for clarification!
My girlfriends have always had a hard time getting me to talk (typing is easier, as you might guess), and they have generally been sweet wonderful people.
I wouldn’t date either of these . I don’t get why Leon would want to, either of them, but especially both. Abuse from one partner is bad enough, why would he want to date two abusers? And why would Krona even consider it? What would she have to gain from that?
(I get that they might not be an “exclusive” couple yet, but in that case, Sydney should be asking Leon, not Krona.)
Abuse is in the eye of the beholder…the equivilant of a paper fan upside the head as a playful reprimand for him immediately jumping straight to “three in a bed” instead of upwards through the ‘can I date him sometime too’, seems to not exactly be causing him to feel wronged or abused. It’s fine that you wouldn’t date them, and you’d not end up the situation to begin with, but if you can’t understand why someone might have a different point of view, then it might be because you’re looking at their point of view in a different way to them. IE, that it basically hadn’t happened in the next panel and he didn’t mind at all.
That, and trying to reason why Krona would have to gain from it seems a bit transactional. Being monogomous is fine, and not being able to have an open relationship is both common and totally reasonable, due to the inherent natural emotional responses, jealousy, possessiveness, etc. But if someone IS able to handle it, then it’s basically just letting more people be happy. You are no longer your partners ‘everything’, less pressure, more communication, potentially more fun/novelty…
Personally I doubt Krona will really be into it, judging from body language, but she needs to think about it, and might discover she’s open to giving it a try. Learning more about herself and her feelings could be a thing she ‘gets out’ of it, I suppose?
So Sydney holds a man’s head underwater to make him fear being drowned and that’s not physically abusive… But thrown her boot at somebody who isn’t actually injured by it is? Holy crap that’s backwards.
And I complain in threads about said anime and manga (if I’m reading/watching them) everytime this shitty trope appears. It’s an overused outdated near pointless and frankly offensive trope. Hell use of the trope almost fucking RUINED the Kaguya Wants to Be Confessed To manga in the latest chapters.
This seems like a non sequitur. There are an infinite number of possible IPs to criticize, and the same response can be given to each criticism. Should we therefore not criticize anything, because there is always something else to criticize?
Why do you assume that anyone criticizing this comic does not also criticize that other arbitrarily chosen media, assuming they should?
Why should abuse victims seek your permission to criticize media that seems to them to make light of their abuse?
Why do you assume they are aware of the same media you are? They’re criticizing this media because they’re reading this media. If they were reading those mangas, they’d be criticizing those (presumably).
Honestly, while Sydney has hit it off with Leon, I would have expected her new confidence to have her heading off to get in touch with Tony from back in the early days of the comic.
That may still come. However Sydney did have a couple of bonding sessions with Leon. Whereas Tony was only ever someone ogled at, from a distance, so there is no ‘getting back in touch’. Rather there would be initiating first contact.
Plus the same problem applies. A couple of months have passed (plus however long Sydney was in basic training since talking with his sister/cousin), so Tony too may no longer be available!
I would posit that they (Sydney and Tony) have less distance between them than that. Tony was/is a regular at the comics shop, and expect that they had OTC conversations on a subject Sydney would be self confidant on, comics, and that those conversations branched out as such conversations do.
Fortunately, Sydney knows a certain half-sister/cousin that she can touch base with to see if Tony is still available! Or, given her new broadened perspective, amenable to expanding his relationship status.
So, a threesome with Tony and Leon then?
If it went well, it may end up with Sydney having her as a sister/cousin in law.
Would Leon be a co-habitational brother/cousin in law?
And Krona a non-co-habitational but 2nd co-habitational sister/cousin in law?
Seating arrangements at family gatherings are going to be interesting.
Dave, personally it’s not the comedic violence I have an issue with, or even necessarily the fact that it’s a female-on-male scenario (though I’m not a huge fan of that aspect either). It’s the fact that, like so many of these scenarios, it’s for no good reason at all. It’s not only their violence that isn’t justified — the anger that precipitated the violence isn’t even justified. So even if you removed all the physical violence from this page while leaving everything else the same, it would still irritate me, because they’re getting mad at him for no reason.
But even that’s not the whole story. Her attacking Dabbler and Math was hilarious, even though her anger and violence weren’t justified there either. So what makes those scenarios different? First, they were reflexive — she attacked pretty much without thinking. It was a blind reaction, a berserker rage lite. Second, the scenarios didn’t tacitly endorse the idea that Dabbler or Math had actually done something wrong that deserved her ire. It was clear that Sydney reacted the way she did because she was startled and her brain short-circuited into fight mode, not because Dabbler or Math actually did anything to her. Third, she was immediately called out for overreacting. Fourth, both Dabbler and Math are experienced combatants who are perfectly able and willing to fight back. (And they did, in a sense, if only by deftly evading her initial attacks.) Fifth, both Dabbler and Math have a tendency to aggravate and even harass others on purpose with relatively few consequences, so the reader is more likely to interpret the scenario as them finally being brought down a peg, than as them being unfairly victimized. (Even the characters saw it that way: In both cases, they were impressed and even a little pleased to see someone finally get the better of Dabbler and Math, even while acknowledging that Sydney was in the wrong.) Sixth, Sydney acted alone, which made it easy to interpret her reaction as a unique and absurd product of her special brain.
None of that applies here. The problem with this scenario is that it’s removed all of the factors that would normally make unprovoked violence in this comic funny.
I’m guessing, that you are not female.
I am, and I agree with NoriMori, not that having a particular gender should have any bearing on the correctness of Nori’s opinion and critique.
Actually Nori’s post was flawlessly excellent, in fact.
Wow, thanks! I’m flattered! :)
I was trying to imply, that, a woman’s greatest fear is getting raped, so sorry for my comment.
Now I’m even more confused.
Oh can you guess tomorrows 6/49 winning numbers while you are at it?
It’s the closest I have to a viable retirement package.
Would you care to elaborate on how that’s relevant?
A big part of the problem is that these rules are accepted, unspoken, uncontested, and not consciously understood, even by those who understand them. It’s a cultural blind spot, and is very difficult for those who don’t subconsciously understand those rules to learn them.
Sorry, what? I’m a bit confused as to how that’s relevant.
Well put!
5 stars, or an up-vote, or a cookie – whichever you prefer. :)
Oh, well thank you! I’m glad. I finished all my cookies yesterday, but I just bought some Rolos and Reese’s Miniatures, so I’ll eat some of those in lieu of a cookie. ;P
Just think of it as if it were the hammers in El Goonish Shive and move on. You’re reading way more into this than was intended, methinks.
I rarely had any problem with the hammers in El Goonish Shive. I’m sure if I thought about it I could think of reasons why, but I’m still tired out from the comment I made yesterday. :P Suffice to say that I don’t think it really makes sense to equate the two scenarios.
And it’s certainly true that I’m reading more into this than was intended; Dave clearly didn’t intend for anybody to read anything into it. I don’t think that’s really relevant to the points I made.
Came back to add a seventh factor that I thought of while I was at work today: When Sydney attacked Math and Dabbler, she literally had never met them before. While there wasn’t really justification for her attacking them, there wasn’t any particular expectation that she would treat them with tenderness or affection, either. Even now that they do know each other, they have a bit of a “vitriolic friendship” going, where neither has any qualms about being utterly merciless with the other.
Whereas Leon is someone she’s talked to a few times and apparently has romantic interest in. And based on Leon’s reactions, they aren’t close enough yet that they can both be equally merciless with each other. Personally, I would therefore expect Sydney to be nicer to him (or at least more forgiving), seeing as she’s trying to date him and supposedly cares about him. If they’d been dating for a while, and Leon seemed comfortable fighting back (or at least standing up for himself), thus putting them on more even footing, I think I’d be okay with occasional comedic violence between them. But this just seems… I dunno, it just feels really messed up to me for someone to be attacking someone in almost the same breath that they’re requesting a date with them.
First time commenter. I have been reading Grrlpower for years, and really enjoyed it.
I live in a poly marriage, and I must admit that I squealed in glee from this plot development. Even more so from it being from an author that usually gives character topics like relationships a nice balanced treatment, with both good and bad things :)
Looking forward to seeing where this is going.(I don’t get the “attack” problem in this comic… cartoon bumps and plasters basically makes it comedy violence, as we have already seen in the comic quite a bit… at least to me)
Hard same. Also poly, also excited about this plot development. I understand both of the complaints flying around about this page, but ERMAGURD BABY POLYS!
I hope they don’t hit him again. At this point I’m pretty sure it’s more the concussions talking than he.
He just has to say something endearing and non-stupid or just a bit of Blarney and I predict he would get a peck of healing or two with a side of warning.
Well that would be my trope anyways.
It’s fuckin comedy violence, the fictional character that’s very much not real isn’t injured
For some people, “comedy violence” is a contradiction, not an excuse.
Yes, people understand the concept of fiction.
DaveB’s basic premise has always been close analog of real world + super beings = situations/antics/story. He has characters with a variety of viewpoints on violence, relationships, etc. It’s not Bugs Bunny or Ren & Stimpy. Actions have consequences, plot lines persist across episodes/pages. If Jigawatt goes deaf, even with a super doctor, she has some permanent hearing damage. If Heatwave gets a knife in the toe that then channels a lightning blast into her, the toe goes necrotic and has to be cut off.
If the normal method to distinguish between a real thing (i.e. Sydney slamming a villain into the ground with her light hook and breaking several of his bones) and an imaginary/symbolic (i.e. Sydney pretending to catch on fire when exposed to sunlight and Maxima’s reflective skin at the bank) is a simple, chibi-like rendition, and Leon, Krona, Sydney and the shoes are not drawn that way? Then people are being entirely fair in reading it as a real shoe, real head, and real lumps. And real violence in Grrl Power has real consequences.
(Within the suspension of disbelief that allows anyone to read any fiction and get anything out of it other than “that’s not real, harumph, harumph,” of course.)
Slapstick has existed longer than anyone currently alive, so firstly, get over it. There has been a tonne Of cartoonish comedic violence moments throughout the comic. The chibi art would look fuckkng weird as shit with the comics current art style (like the cartoon bumps look like garbage due to the comics current colouring style, but they’re still cartoon ass bumps)
I’m pretty sure I’m at least as entitled to react to portrayals of violence (and/or the cartoonishness thereof) as you are to react to people’s reactions, so maybe realize it’s off-putting and arrogant-seeming to tell other people what to think about something? Maybe?
I agree that the simplified or chibi style would stand out. I believe that was the entire point I was making: it does stand out, and makes it very clear what part is supposed to be realistic and what part is supposed to be cartoonish.
There’s been cartoonish violence plenty of times without the chibi style. Fucks sake, tone exists for a fuckin reason, if you can’t differentiate the tone of violence in a comedy moment and a dramatic moment, you need to re-think a lot of things about how you take in media
You really seem to be stuck on the idea of telling other people what to think, how to think, that what or how they think is wrong, etc.
I’m sure you don’t much care, since you seem to think everything about how and what I think is wrong, and everything about how and what you think is right, but I’m just going to ignore your opinion entirely and in general and call it even on the dismissal of others front. Have a good life.
You legitimately ARE wrong
Have a good life.
Sorry but if you can’t handle violence (comedic or otherwise) maybe superhero comics aren’t for you?
Comedy lesson #1: Slapstick, and comedy in general, should involve punching up. Not down. Sydney and Krona abusing Leon is punching down.
Comedy lesson #2: If a joke fails to amuse the audience, the correct response is to try to salvage things by taking it in a new direction. NOT by telling the audience they need to develop a better sense of humor.
Comedy lesson #2.5: If a joke offends the audience, the correct response is to try to spin it into something better received, preferably via self-deprecating humor. Telling them they’re wrong for being offended further offends, and also establishes you as someone nobody would want to be PAID to listen to, let alone pay to hear.
Comedy lesson #3: If you’re going to argue about comedy on a webcomic forum, do so in a courteous and respectful manner, as the overwhelming majority of people here have done. Unless of course it was your intention to create a deliberate caricature of an opinionated fool encouraging people to believe the opposite of whatever you espouse, through your bad example.
The problem with your #1 is that supers aren’t real. There’s no existing-in-RL class disparity which makes this “punching down”. It even took me a minute to figure out what you meant because “they have fictional magical superpowers” is not even a little bit what punching up vs punching down is supposed to mean.
It is a little bit disappointing that in a comic that otherwise reliably subverts it with Harem and Dabbler, he went for the cliche stereotyped “it’s the guy who asks about something that pushes boundaries and the girls who not only say no but also how dare he even ask”, but I think it’s out of line to say that this is ‘punching down’ just because they happen to have superpowers. (and the point of intersectionality is that there’s no global sorting algorithm for this anyway)
NO ONE was hit!!!
I’m not sure why Krona needed to ask him why his thoughts went straight to a Threesome scenario.
Leon is a geek, but he’s a hetero male.
OF COURSE THAT’S THE FIRST THING HE’D THINK!!!
I mean really, why are they surprised?
I’m also not sure why they’re angry, they are having a discussion about a potential poly relationship, the subject would arise eventually anyway.
I am a hetero woman and even I thought that was the natural question to ask :)
You’re both morons
Just because someone is of a different opinion to you does not make them morons.
But thinking that insulting respected people will convince others that your opinion is better, now that is moronic.
“respected” sure pal. Their opinion is taking a dumb as hell stance on the seen that isn’t accurate
Scene*
Sydney wanted to be able to ‘share’ Leon. How precisely does ‘threesome’ not sound like a natural response that most guys (and women) would think she was suggesting?
I recommend you read the scene again, before accusing others of being “morons” or “inaccurate” as Sydney and Krona did openly breech the subject of a three-some. Then kicked Leon in the face over it.
Yes, my IQ is 137, just 6 points below genius. part of the top 2.69%.
Well heck, your argument seems to be flawless.
My problem with this sequence of strips are:
– I think that “violence:female on male is funny” is trite and overused (That situations that would rise an eyebrow with gender inverted (i.e. double standard) annoy me a little)
– the exaggerated reactions of the girls to the – admittedly off-color – comments of Leon. “Why would you jump to that?” Well, she mention a friend of Dabbler and then ask if we are monogamous. What he is supposed to think!? Sure such reaction are par of the course for Sidney but I expected better from Krona (about his last comment the timing (the last panel of the comic) make me think Dave is going somewhere with it, so I rather wait for the next update before to comment it (but it could be the concussions talking.)
I don’t know why you expected more from Krona, she gives people itchy thongs, when they annoy her, and she changed her hair color on a whim after Sydney made a comment about them being color coded shorties. This barrage is in character for all three of them. Leon has shown himself capable enough in the past, to turn this around on them, if it really bothered him.
Well, given the nature of her powers and how she describe using them I thought she was more rational in general, if one have the power to crack the universe I like to think tend to not act on an impulse. (the thongs thing is not an impulse thing, changing clothes seems to be a thing she do abitually, se comment about resizing Maxima’s jacket.)
also, she had know Leon for two months, she should be used to him saying things without thinking, so either Leon is not acting normally or her hitting him “playfully” is normal, make of that what you want.
I’ve read three of the Arsenal series. I have enjoyed them, but yep, the cliffhangers were relatively extreme. I’ll have to get current on them.
Dave, I like your comic a lot. I really do. And a dumb strip like this isn’t going to make me stop reading altogether out of spite. But dude… your defense needs work.
Other comments here have amply explained why it’s ignorant, ill-informed and kinda non-committal, so let me just say this: please lay off the violence against Leon in the next, don’t try to defend this any more, because you can’t do it in a way that won’t sound douchey other than claiming you didn’t know any better, and maybe bear this strip in mind the next time these three are in panel together for a significant amount of time.
Except this comic isn’t saying it’s ok for women to do this. It isn’t saying it’s won’t either. It’s just showing it happening.
It’s also fictional characters doing fictional things to fictional people. I am completely against real people doing real violence against other real people, regardless of gender, but if we can’t show fictional people doing fictional violence against fictional people, it makes it hard to raise awareness without it sounding like a boring public service announcement.
The solution to the problem is not attacking comic artists for depicting sometime that never happens (to women simultaneously removing their boots faster than the eye can see and throwing them at someone’s face hard enough to cause bumps in the top of their head), and the solution is also not sweeping it under the rug so that nobody is made aware that such a thing happens.
Btw, Vehemence is still incarcerated, being subjected to medical experimentation class forced long term hot boxing with marijuana. And here we are worried about some bumps in a head that aren’t in any way realistic and it’s a tie that is intended to be exaggerated but in no way represents a real injury.
Arcswat conducts medical experimentation on its prisoners and we’re worried about thrown boot jokes.
My phone kept murdering my spelling and changed a bunch of words to nonsense. I hope it wasn’t too hard to understand what I’m getting at here.
I’m fine with cartoon violence but not real violence. There are greater crimes being committed… Sydney did a modified waterboarding on a suspect who hadnt even been taken into custody yet. I mean come on. This is what gets people’s panties in a twist?
Sydney wasn’t waterboarding Vehemence. Waterboarding is inducing a deep-rooted terror reaction in a person who needs to breathe by cutting of their airflow with a saturated cloth.
Vehemence doesn’t need to breathe at all as long as he has power to burn for life support. She was out-and-out drowning him to make him burn through power to sustain himself. It was supposed to make him run out of juice, for which there was an indicator (the color and brightness of the glowing lines on his body).
It didn’t work because holding his head under water, of course, counts as violence (which is the source of his powers).
So, yes, people fighting a dangerous bad guy who tried to kill one of them, during a fight in which he is also mind-influencing a bunch of other people into fighting, is being held to a different standard than a guy asking ill-time and ill-phrased questions about things two girls are interested in dating him.
Sorry, “things two girls who are interested in dating him said.”
She attempted to use the visceral fear of drowning on him. That’s basically waterboarding. Not literally the exact same thing, but it’s the same idea and is ethically wrong to do for the same reasons. Whether his surrender was due to that fear or something else is entirely beside the point. Actual waterboarding doesn’t stop being waterboarding just because the guy your doing it to enjoys it and gleefully tells you what his safe word is.
Tokumei – A person who is actively trying to kill you and all your friends is not “a suspect who hadn’t even been taken into custody yet”… and you just blew any credibility that you might have had by writing the line.
I can’t even seriously type “seriously?”, because no one who can put together sane sentences the way you can would be stupid enough to put that one together and mean it.
It’s either hyperbole or trolling.
Ah, found the person who doesn’t understand how the American Justice system works… Also, it seems to be he wasn’t trying to kill anyone, just have a good fight without caring if anybody really dies.
Also, picking a random sentence of an argument and contradicting it without giving an argument as to how it’s wrong, then saying that because of that, your opponent has lost all credibility is quite the fallacious argument.
This is because the sentence you picked out is not in any way the keystone for my entire argument. You can’t dismiss an entire argument because you don’t like a single point in it. It doesn’t work that way.
Vehemence orchestrated a massive fight with widescale property damage and injuries inflicted (one of the heroes lost a toe. That might not sound like much, but… it’s still an amputated portion of her anatomy). And also caused legal issues for many of his victims (a lot of those “villains” turned out to be ordinary folks with superpowers that he rounded up to use as mind controlled cannon fodder). One was actually a hairdresser who surrendered at the first opportunity). His superpower allows him to feed on any violent energies in the vicinity. They’re not doing “hot boxing” with the marijuana. They’re using a steady dosage of marijuana to keep the extremely dangerous criminal too pacified and happy to try escaping.
I don’t recall Sydney doing waterboarding on ANY suspects. The only interrogation scene we’ve seen (that I can recall, at least) was when Dabbler tried pumping “Coot” for info, in the guise of a blonde bimbo with a lisp.
This is why we’re so unhappy with what we’re seeing here, in fact. Grrl Power is an excellent comic, we love Dave’s work… we’re holding him to a higher standard. Because he’s earned it. This comic is better than most anything Marvel sells these days.
You did catch the part whether I said “modified” before “waterboarding” right? Making a man fear drowning by holding his head under water to get him to surrender is pretty darn close to the spirit and method of waterboarding.
Then after he surrenders, arcswat engages in medical experimentation by drugging him around the clock with a Schedule I substance.
ARCSWAT are not exactly paragons. They’re downright renegade. And here we are, freaking out over stylistic bumps on a guy’s head, bumps that are cartoonish and in no way meant to represent actual injuries.
Tisk tisk
A defense was literally never needed, it was just a bit of cartoonish comedy violence that’s happened time and again in the comic
If Dave had said that, that would have been a fine defense. But what Dave DID say, is inexcusable. Especially as Sydney shouldn’t be mad at Leon for kissing Krona, since Syd was just fine, sharing a freaking bath with another guy. AND in a much shorter time-frame, from her perspective. Syd was away from Leon for two days. Leon was away from Syd almost two months, and had good reason to believe Syd was DEAD
So because Dave stuck his for in foot in his mouth by trying to take the concerns at least somewhat seriously instead of dismissing them outright, it’s inexcusable?
The message here is either you defend it testing exactly the right words that nobody knows or don’t defend it. Anything in between is inexcusable
I’m just going to ask it- is this Sydney Scoville Jr from the universe we started with, or a different one? I keep thinking of time dilation.
The one we knew died. This one was recreated … by Krona.
Feel free to join the dots.
It’s. The. Same. One!
Sydney and company were punted forward in time (due to Sydney fucking up the Portal creation, butt no one talks about that, because Sydney), the company (plus Sci-fright and spectral colleagues) managed to make it back through to the ‘correct’ time, leaving Sydney (huddled in her ball like a traumatized hamster) alone in the ‘future’
Eventually (two days later), she managed to make her way back home and found she had been gone for 53 days
NO TIME DILATION!! Nor Dimension-hopping or any other crap. Same boring Universe as the one she had left two days previous, except 51 days in the future
Okay, let’s just forget about this whole “Domestic Violence” crap that was not the intended message (seriously, yes, DV is a real concern, perpetrated by both males and females, butt that is not important right now)
Sydney. Sydney is the problem here (settle down Yorp, and let me explain). She returns from two hectic days in space (lost on an alien world, forced to survive on her wits and a tic tac, fled through a strange portal she had no idea where it was leading to, ended up on a giant artificial station filled with honest aliens, ate something that half the galaxy won’t touch, met a ‘friend’ of Dabbles, got into a messy street fight, had relations with a space woof, yadda yadda yadda, made it back home), and rather than attend her own “Welcome Home, Sydney” party, decides to barge into Leon’s office and declare they are now dating (without even checking how he feels about the matter), finds out he has been seeing someone else, and decides she wants to insert herself into the mix (again, without really seeing how either feels, because, she’s Sydney, and they are damn well going to go along with it)
Now, this is where it really starts getting ‘iffy’: she makes a ‘joke’ that Leon has a ‘type’ because Kronachrome is about the same size as she is (again, without even determining if he is interested in Sydney, because, hey, she’s the Might-tay Halo, of course he’s interested) and suggest asking the other smol super to join the ‘party’. Leon, who probably never even considered the possibility (because he is dating Kronachrome for herself, not for her size), asks if she is serious
Two lumps on heads was deserved, butt, and this is where DaveB possibly ‘goofed’: Kronachrome should have been the one administering them, one to Leon for even thinking about it and one to Sydney for suggesting it in the first place!!
Sydney is not finished yet, oh no, she’s just getting started! She then says how happy she is for them, butt… attempts to insert herself into their happiness by asking if they are monogamous! Leon, being relatively new to the whole ‘being in a real relationship’ scene, naturally asks if she means a threesome. Kronachrome thumps him for being a male virgin and jumping to most obvious conclusion, and Sydney thumps him for even suggesting she was interested in girls! Again, two thumps were (arguably) deserved, one for Leon for asking and one for Sydney for giving him that idea in the first place!
Sydney then explains she simply meant if it was okay to share him (again, not even asking if he was interested in her, because, she’s Sydney, why wouldn’t he be interested? he is dating Kronachrome, and they are the same size, right?), Kronachrome gives her doubts butt says she will have to think about changing her feelings on the matter. Leon simply asks if she could use her abilities to ‘hack her own mind to help (kinda like using self-hypnosis), and he gets yelled at again from both girls (and more than likely result in another pair of metaphorical lumps), even though Sydney had basically just asked Kronachrome to do the same thing!
Damn! That’s more typed in one reply then have ever done before (and nope, still not comfortable typing this much at once, much prefer typing short succinct posts, easier for someone with limited mental capabilities to have to deal with)
This… is an EXCELLENT point. Yeah, Sydney is very much the one at fault here, for literally inviting herself into their fledgeling relationship.
You’re a fucking moron
Are you sure you’re not looking into a mirror when you type?
Very well said! I would also expect Sydney to cut people who put their foot in their mouth more slack since she herself is so often in that situation – and people cut her lots of slack! But apparently not. (She may change her mind about that if she has tiem to think about it, but somehow I doubt that.)
Oh, I meant very well said Guesticus. Obviously.
Before I forget again: Krona’s ability to manipulate reality would enable her to create a bump on someone even without actually hitting ’em wouldn’t it? Then she could create a (painful) comical bump on someone (as a means of her wild disagreement) for real – and remove said bumps later. Not sure if she would do it…
I loved this comic but not sure I am going to stay on after this. Others have clearly stated the problems but for me I never released Sydney was such an entitled jerk. She will never really be that lovable nut to me again.
Personally have a problem with the last couple pages, for the reasons you stated, butt do have personal faith that DaveB has something planned to ‘bring her to heel’ (so to speak) for her actions
Not saying you have to stay if you have decided to leave (you may already have left and won’t even read this), butt if you have loved this webic in the past, give it a chance and see what happens next
Honest question here, is your usage of “butt” instead of “but”, intentional, or a repeated typo made without intention?
Intentional, because it grinds soo many gears
You love the comic that liberally uses anime/cartoon tropes and comedic ‘violance’, but you’re going to leave…because of anime tropes?
Ugh. The dripping cringe on the blacklash here. This hyper sensitive pc bs really does get on my nerves. Just be normal in real life, dont act like cartoon characters.
How hard is that a message to silently accept without joyfully seizing the opportunity to pick up your burning standard?
Houston, we have a problem.
nah mate. that isnt comedy, it is assault. do you think you would be able to leave your house ever again if you swapped the genders here? or would you be de-personed and hounded off the internet? lose your patreon, get doxxed?
It’s comedy my dude. Comedy violence knows no rules about gender, but make up more MRA bullshit and pretend you actually care
“An organization of men and their women allies who draw attention to the ways in which misandry (anti-male attitudes and actions) and gynocentrism (women-privileging) harm men.”
Thank you for making me look up a TLA that means “mansplaining”. I think.
I mean it’s more like folks that pretend to care about serious men’s issues to try and make progressive identities look bad
Mint – you are clearly a troll rather than a reasoning being. Whichever gender you are, you are a disgrace to it.
“Comedy violence knows no rules about gender” requires an IQ of about -2 sigma to believe.
These pages just would not WORK if the genders were reversed, and there would be no one arguing they did.
The author himself acknowledged that fact in his amended notes, and used it as an excuse.
I’m not a fucking troll, I’m an actual fan of this comic. There’s no “domestic abuse played for laughs” or other such bullshit. I’ve said before elsewhere, it actually does fucking work. Literally citing a moment that a male character hit a female one in Marvel comics as one of the funniest moments they ever did. It knows no rules about gender, you fuckin dumb cunt. He didn’t “acknowledged that fact” as much as cowered to you assholes and your fuckin harassment. Slapstick is a staple of comedy, has no rules along gender lines. Keep fucking pretending if that helps you sleep at night I guess
Just because you found a powerful male character hitting a female character with force to be funny, does not mean that that was how it was written as
It just means you have a seriously fucked up sense of humour
It’s literally got comedic pacing you dumb fuck
You may not be a “fucking” troll, but you are clearly a troll of some kind if your only rebuttal to a perfectly apt and accurate assessment of the page is “you are a moron” or for wit “a fucking moron.”
For your own well-being, I suggest you see a psychiatrist, pronto, for your projection issues.
Thinking about it, one major problem I see is that the comic is rather on “serious physics” side than on the “roadrunner physics” side.
I mean if Sydney would fall from the top of a 200-floor tower, create a crater on the landing, then get up, brush off the dust and say “ouch”, administering bumps to someone’s head would be taken as an exaggeration of “acted out” disagreement, like it should, IMHO.
But AFAIR this was the first page such “funny” bumps were created – and the comic changed over the years from being a bit more “comicky” in artwork and lightheartedness to more realistic and serious, so such appearance should IMHO become less likely.
(The slider position between “Roadrunner”-like funny level and, say, “Superman”-like seriousness aside, I agree with Guesticus’ last comment, above.)
Do you actually read this comic? It switches between serous and cartoonish violence all the fuckin time
I did and do but maybe I forgot some things. What’s the most “cartoonish” violence within the comic according to you?
– Sydney mauling Mr. Amorphous didn’t leave any bumps on him and I understand it as “realistic”.
– Max’ creating something like a nuclear explosion during the press conference was “realistic” enough to require Sydney protecting some people with her shield.
– Achilles’ deflecting of Heavenly Sword’s sword with his eyeball was exactly done to shock her and make her drop it – absolutely realistic.
– Max’ fight with Vehemence was dangerously destructive and for sure realistic.
Your fucking turn. What fucking “cartoonish” fucking violence do you fucking mean?
This usually happens when an anime character is on screen. Given that is Sydney’s style, we see it a lot. Here we have both Halo and Krona.
I think a critical mass would be achieved if Pixel walked in. Giant flying humanoid robots would probably start attacking the HQ building. That or Gojira. Even if the Council think she does not exist.
About dating… I think there are a few levels within a date. The overarching definition is “2+ people plan and do an activity and ignore others around them.” This can apply to group dates (let’s all go to the skating rink), casual dates (want to watch a movie; a focus more on the activity and friendship), serious dating (I like you and want to like you more), steady dating (you’re the only one I have eyes for), and amorous dating (just get married already).
I doubt Krona is at amourous, yet. So unless she’s at steady, I doubt she would really mind Leon going on casual dates with Sydney.
For what it’s worth, I see this as a play on the “open mouth; insert foot” joke.
Leon is a male, with little-to-no experience in dating. Of course he’s going to say stupid stuff. Sydney is also the type to overreact, so it’s only natural that she would do a face heel kick as a reaction to what Leon says. She’s very much into him, and therefore would he would affect her even more than some generic person.
It’s also natural for one person to follow the reactions of another. People are like sheep; we follow the leader, even if we KNOW the leader is a complete butthead. So Krona’s reaction is just following Sydney. Imagine that Krona started her heel face kick about 250 milliseconds after Sydney.
Yes, the problem is, for me, that a lot of people have missed, is that Sydney is the one providing the foot to be inserted, butt it’s not her mouth it is going into
No, she’s really not
Yes, she is.
“Are you guys mmmonogamous?”
Right there in panel three.
It wasn’t Leon saying that.
So yeah, Sydney started the ball rolling.
She’s not making him say something that fucking stupid
Although concussion can interfere with judgement.
He’s not fucking concussed
How many fingers am I holding up?
Only kidding.
I use claws, instead of fingers.
It’s still fuckin cartoon comedy violence, he’s not injured
Oh, you thought I was alluding to Leon being concussed. It wasn’t Leon I was checking for concussion. You must have missed me having my tongue in cheek.
You really seem to be getting agitated over this.
Do you perhaps not know what ‘monogamous’ means? It means having a sexual relation, or a marriage, to one person at a time. It does not mean ‘dating one person at a time’.
So what does that mean, if she was asking if they were sexually exclusive? It means she wanted to know if it was okay for Leon to have sex with both of them. Even if it meant at different times, a threesome was still a NATURAL route for him to ask about, since she did not say ‘at separate times’ until later.
But hey, I’m sure the people who wrote the Merriam-Webster dictionary are morons also, right Mint? :)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monogamous
Little note. Don’t namecall. It’s what’s known as an ad hominem attack (and not even a particularly good type of ad hominem attack even), and it’s not a good way to convince people. It means you can’t think of a logical argument for your stance or a way to refute someone else’s stance. It’s also what usually separates this comic’s comment section from a lot of other comics.
True, she is not making him say anything, she just said something (two somethings, if you go back a page and see who suggesting bringing Pixelicious in first) that he wanted explained
He’s not being lead into saying a fucking thing, now fuck off cuz it’s comedy violence, asshole
Do you realize that almost every post you make is you swearing or namecalling at someone else?
So what? (Guess this’ll be my last post instead)
Oh, we certainly hope so.
So, it means you’re not as intelligent as you think you are.
It is interesting that you talk about tone and how a comic strip should not be taken seriously then swear repeatedly in a post about said fictional cartoon strip. Perhaps you have lost the sense of tone and “need to re-think how you take in media”. Maybe superhero comic forums are not for you?
Well, I think Leon might be available again now.
But I don’t think Sydney will care any more.
Naa, both Sydney and Krona are (very) in tune with manga traditions (hence the bumps on his head). They know guys are flawed, so it would take more than one or two slips to make them give up on them. Leon just needs to learn the ground rules.
The big one is to keep that inner voice inside. It never sounds right when spoken aloud.
That’s true of many things besides relationships.
“It sounded like such a good idea in my head.”
It also applies to the statement, “it was a good idea on paper!” at least until you try and execute it. Then you realize it was a horrible idea.
Just as long as she acknowledges her own flaws.
She does. My ‘homepage’, for the comic, is this page. Where Sydney shows she does not feel worthy of the powers she has gained.
Likewise she has been suitably contrite when making mistakes, such as interrupting Maxima’s presidential conference, amongst other scenes where she has shown herself to be self-aware of her flaws, and willing to acknowledge them.
Mind you, on the other paw, she is also perfectly willing to boast about her achievements, such as beating Math. ;-)
i -Love- that you had to put an edit. what a bunch of babies. also, shame on you for thinking your readers Weren’t babies. it’s 2019, we are firmly in the age of Waaaaaah~
Some of us have puppies. Oddly I also had kittens.
My puppies grew up and turned out to be wolves.
Genuinely. A pair of rescued puppies. Genetic testing showed them to be 75 to 80% wolf!
I think the rest is probably dog. They did not specify. Possibly panther.
Funny. I have a dog that’s supposed to be a Maltese-Pomeranian mix, but he turned out to be part dog, part Persian cat, part mountain goat, and part unicorn. Like, he actually gets up on his back legs and does the “unicorn rampant” thing. He’s the only dog I’ve ever heard of that literally **grins**. In any other dog, that would be a sign of aggression, but he’s just rearing up and grinning when he welcomes someone home.
Winters get cold up there. Panthers and wolves gotta do what panthers and wolves gotta do to stay warm.
1: Did all the folks complaining about this sequence ALSO complain about the shower scene where Maxima was dragging Dabbler around by her hair, or when Maxima gave Harem an atomic wedgie? Just curious, because if the only time non-self-defense violence triggers an objection is when it’s against a man, you might want to ask yourself why?
2: Likewise, did you have any objections to the fact that the US Government is sanctioning the use of Earth as an intergalactic sex tourism hotspot, without the awareness or consent of the participants?
3: How many of you objected to Dabbler’s casual use of the term “whore” in the pre-Vehemence dinner scene, or the fact that the during the debate that followed it, the narrative gave Dabbler the ‘last word’ on the matter, rather than letting Maxima respond to her points?
4: If you’re citing Lobsterman in your posts, don’t bother replying to this one–he’s a hack, and a charlatan, speaking far, far outside his field of expertise. What he says that is novel is not true, and what he says that is true is not novel. If he’s your go-to for argument by authority, we’re not going to have a fruitful conversation.
Hilarious. You win 0.002 internets for your vacuous attempt to change the subject.
1) no, because a) Dabbler deserved it (I honestly don’t remember the scene but usually she does when it come to Maxima, with the way she tease her, you mess with the bull… and so on) and b) she is a super (or equivalent) so she can take it)
2) well, now that you mention it that is disturbing.
3) you mean the “a woman must be a …” scene? What is the problem? it is a word, she use it in the proper context , non gratuitously or just to insult someone and she did made some good points.
1: It’s true that Dabbler is a super–but someone dragging her by her hair in a fight scene (as opposed to the shower scene) would be seen as a dramatic ‘oh shit’ moment. If she is fair game for that sort of thing in comedic scenes where the visual cues are symbolic, then I don’t see why Leon is exempt, so long as nothing in the text indicates this is meant to be a ‘real violence’ portrayal.
2: Thanks for that. I brought it up at the time and was generally shouted down. It’s particularly irksome given that the aliens in question are often grotesque by human standards and use disguise tech to blend in–if they happen to mimic a handsome or beautiful celebrity (and at this point, nothing about the ethics of the situation would give me reason to believe they don’t), then they are fitting the legal definition of “rape by deception” in several states–as it is, even if the forms are all ‘generic’, one can make a good case that this is going on.
3: Word choice matters, though–different terms, even when largely synonymous, have vastly different connotations. Note that “whore” is often used as a non-sexual insult–that’s because the sexual variation of it is considered degrading, as well, referring in both cases to someone who sells out their principles for cash or some other base return. Had she chosen “courtesan”, the connotation would be different–not positive, I’d argue, but not quite so slur-heavy*. That said, I’d at least be willing to cut Dabbler some slack, because she IS a non-native speaker, and has actually been shown to fail to grasp idomatic usage and cultural connotation before. The various implications of all the terms for “female who takes money for sex” that exist in English (and most other Earthly languages) probably are literally non-existent in her native culture, making it even easier for her to get lost in the translation. (In fact, in her world, the term is probably gender-neutral to begin with, which virtually none of the English options are; people use terms like “man-whore”, because the base term is assumed to apply to women first and foremost–I don’t think I’ve ever heard the word “woman-whore” come from someone, because the base word assumes female gender.)
The issue, which was almost certainly accidental and occurred because of format, was that the conversation was a script. Maxima was literally prevented from making the counterarguments that could be made by the intervention of Vehemence’s attack. I’m sure Dave mainly chose to stop it there because he didn’t want a ten-page discourse on the concept–interrupting the convo with a big fight scene was probably just how spacing and timing worked best. But that meant that Dabbler got the ‘last word’ in the scene, and the convo didn’t continue (at least anyplace we could see). In fiction, that generally gives the impression that the final speaker ‘won’ the argument, unless there’s actual cues otherwise.
(A key rebuttal would be that Dabbler’s definition is actually not something most people apply to the word “Whore” at all–it’s not assumed that they are ‘good’ at sex, but merely that they are willing to do whatever the John pays for. In fact, a non-trivial portion of Johns interviewed by researchers have very negative views of both the sex and the women whom they hire.)
Let me put it this way–Maxima could win the argument after the fact simply by getting Dabbler to agree to a little experiment–she pulls in her ‘lust aura’ as tight as she can, in order to not taint the experiment. Then, the two of them go to a brothel, paying for a room but not for ‘company’; she tells Dabbs she can ‘feed’ as much as she likes on the lust-energy she’s getting from the other rooms.
Dabbs would probably be overjoyed at first, but by the end, she’d likely want to do to the brothel what Maxima did to that mosque. Because first off, the women mostly have all the lust of a rock, and the men’s lust is heavily mixed with an energy that would probably suit Vehemence more–resentment, anger and disgust. It’d be like getting a gift basket of fruit and discovering half of it’s plastic, and two-thirds of the rest have maggots.
That said, I understand the whys of how it actually all went down in-comic. I’m just saying that maybe the folks complaining about this particular sequence might want to reconsider if they’re complaining because of a hard-and-fast principle, or because for the first time, they have some self-identification with the target of the comedic violence, Leon not only being a dude, but also a geeky dude, which, lets face it, is going to be pretty heavily a stand-in for many of the folks reading here.
1)Yeah, maybe in a fight scene it would a “oh shit” moment (but even not, Dabbler, IIRC, can teleport and I would be surprised if she hadn’t a “shorten hair” spell or another dozen ways to get out of that situation) but that wasn’t a fight scene. And the difference is that Dabbler (excuse the phrasing) is asking for it, with her continue pushing of Maxima’s buttons (and she does it because she know that she can take it – and because it is fun). Leon don’t deserve it, he is asking questions, legittimate ones, even if somewhat inappropriate.
3) That is not the definitoon of “whore” Dabbler was using, “a woman should be a whore in the bedroom” doesn’t mean that a woman should ask money to have sex. Another way the word is used is to indicate someone that that really enjoy sex, want a lot of it and is -usually- good at it.
1: That’s my point, though–this isn’t a fight scene, either, and people are reacting like it is. The comparisons to anime here are pretty spot-on; ‘violence’ among friends is played for laughs, while violence from an enemy is serious business, and you’re expected to know the difference. It’s not necessarily a great trope to emulate, but it’s pretty clear contextually.
3: Except Dabbler is quoting an actual saying in that sentence, and the actually saying makes it very clear that the roles a woman is expected to perform are purely subservient ones–maid, cook, whore. The reason Maxima is objecting is entirely because the word carries with it the connotation of doing what the man in her life wants, above her own desires (which is why Dabb’s personal additions aren’t really germane to the discussion–if the original statement were continued, the woman’s role in the boardroom would be “coffee girl” and in the lab would be “tech assistant”.) Again, a key part of my point is that Dabbler is NOT familiar with English with enough precision to use the words with their connotations. (BTW, Mirriam-Webster sticks to the ‘whore = prostitute’ definition, and while Urban Dictionary does feature the ‘enjoys sex’ definition for several write-ups, virtually all of the entries also include the moral condemnation I referred to earlier.)
1.) Dabbler was sexually assaulting Maxima by going into the shower and groping her against her will. Grabbing Dabbler by the hair and dragging her around is justified under the law, as an act of self-defense. Harem’s “atomic wedgie” was a direct result of Harem framing Maxima by teleporting into a paddywagon and leaving lipstick on the face of a suspect and then teleporting out again, thinking it’s a “harmless prank,” and resisting arrest by trying to run. HAREM GOT OFF EASY. Had an official courts-martial been called in on her, the consequences would have been bloody horrific.
I find it funny that a bunch of people are calling out “violence against men” as the part of the comic that’s not funny, when the whole set up is tropey and even Sydney’s sudden swing into being ok with polyamory is out of character considering her melt down a strip or so before. And don’t get me started on the trite/tropey comments that are spewing from Leon…sheesh.
For me, personally, it’s not the violence (verbal is still assault, just doesn’t leave visible scars) that is the issue, butt rather the fact that Sydney is feeding this stuff to Leon, and then verbally assaults him when he simply repeats what she just said!
Either in a joking manner (regarding Pixelicious) or to ask what she meant (regarding the monogamous line)
“… Sydney’s sudden swing into being ok with polyamory is out of character considering her melt down a strip or so before …”
For a meltdown, see her reaction at the pool. What we saw here was surprise, rather than a meltdown. Only a couple of days had passed for Sydney, since her heart-to-heart evening with Leon. So she was taken aback that he had moved on. Despite having been told that about a month had passed for everyone on Earth, the realisation had not sunk in. So it was hitting her hard.
And that is the crux of why Sydney has just said this. She does clearly have feelings for Leon, and is grasping for a way to hang on to him (albeit that she only had him wishfully before). Given her ‘white as driven snow’ status, Sydney is at an age where experimentation and discovery of her own nature is reasonable.
As for the speed of her changes, that is something any reader of the comic should be familiar with by now. Halo’s brain jumps about from one thing to another at a breakneck pace. With her behaviour following suit. She has been intensely exposed to polyamory, by Dabbler, for about a month that she has been at Archon. And now has inadvertently gotten in on the scene with Frix.
‘Going with the flow’ does throw her a possible lifeline in restoring her fantasy relationship. And she made enough of a connection with Krona, in this scene, to work up the courage to openly suggest that.
It took more effort to do that, than to engage an alien armada on her own.
I think your problem regarding Leon being included in the discussion is panel 3. Sydney’s looking directly at Krona, and Leon is nowhere to be seen. I you change it so that the shot is over Sydney’s shoulder, with Leon and Krona side eyeing each other, the read is a question directed at the two of them with a degree of uncertainty of their part.
Except, Leon is not included in this discussion, except as the meat Sydney is trying get a piece of
What should Leon be saying in this discussion when the topic has been opened? He already indicated that he hadn’t dated enough to have a type, what should he be saying? What kind of ‘involvement’ would make this situation ok? and why would it change that?
This whole deal comes across as outrage on others behalf for the sake of the outrage more then actually looking at what is happening and the context it is presented in, yeah not everyone will enjoy the attempt to make this funny, sure, but taking it beyond what it is, a comic making a bad/good joke, seems just to be for the sake of drama?
Or would you want all such situations removed? should we then also remove what others might find offensive? and not allow Dave to tell his story the way he wants to?
I am seriously wondering this, given what has happened.
So, because he hasn’t dated very much (if at all), he shouldn’t be involved in a discussion between his girlfriend and another girl about if it is okay to share him? o_O
You aren’t answering my question, and seemingly putting words in my mouth, because I didn’t state that.
I’m asking you, what should he say, what should Leon do, what should happen to make the page situation alright? what should Leon be doing, how should he be involving himself in the situation?
No, Leon isn’t doing anything wrong here
He is asking questions to find out what Sydney is talking about, which a sensible person who doesn’t understand something would do, rather than simply assume one thing when something else was meant
Seems like Leon is rushing toward celibacy as fast as his greedy subconscious allows so he can go after Pixel, LOL. Leon and Pixel can then be “I got spanked!” buddies!!
His greedy subconscious? Sydney was the one to bring up Pixelicious first, and she was the one to bring up monogamy
VOTE,GO FOR NUMBER ONE
Dabbler, upon hearing (or hearing about) this exchange will proceed to make everyone Leon was eyeing horny, ensuing much laughter to be had (by her).
I’m just going to leave this last comment then I’m done. Dave the joke is good (not some domestic abuse humour thing, it’s just the usual stupid thing is said violence occurs, that’s happened so many times in this comic), I admit I think Sydney’s sudden inclination to polyamory is odd given her last reaction (I also never really felt the chemistry between her and Leon, and like her and Frix more but I’ll live)
I’m going to give the lack of looking at Leon as an art fail, it definitely could’ve been clearer there
Promises, promises.
Sigh… Leon’s ok, but I’m still holding out hope for Sydney and Tony. Maybe a moustached evil but cuddly alternate universe version of Hiro (Villan? Villen? Vyllen?)
Vilain. I think Hiro would be too intimidating for Sydney. She admires his physique, sure. But he lacks the geek aspect which would make him approachable for her. Not to mention lacking that would also mean he would fail to appreciate Sydney’s advantages.
People who do not understand geeks just take her to be spoilt, childish and a menace. We see it often enough with commentators, to know that to be a given.
Not to mention that we have seen Hiro’s (and presumably an evil version of him) tastes in women. Maxima and the girls from the club. Sydney did not even get a glance.
It’s okay Sydney, you just haven’t found the right girl yet.
:-D
Maybe Pixel will change her mind?
After all Pixel was able to alter Sydney’s bladder, with no trouble. Tweaking her gender preference would probably also be within her power. And presumably the ethics would not bother her either. She could always ask permission retroactively. ;-)
*wicked grin, whilst stirring*
It was Krona who altered Sydney’s bladder with the snooze button. Something like that I would think she wouldnt consider it “unethical” but I really doubt Krona would alter someones sexual mindset without their permission as that sort of intrusion should be warrented by super jail time as a mental manipulation. Additionally on page 3 a busty, black haired beauty which I believe to be Olivia is giving her a more than friendly booby crush hug wishing her a safe patrol and on page 304 she asks if Sydney can “pop her cherry” for her. Though that might be on the comics side, but given her sudden interest she may mean something else, who knows?
Yea, my usual mental problem with names being switched randomly. I did mean Krona.
“… that sort of intrusion should be warrented by super jail time as a mental manipulation”
1. There are no laws prohibiting mental intrusion.
2. Krona is powerful enough that she could ignore fear of the law, if she chose. Get caught? Just go back to her last checkpoint and make sure she does not. Or alter the witnesses memory. Or a myriad of other options that her reality altering powers grant.
Whilst I was mainly being mischievous, in posing my reply, Krona did demonstrate extreme disregard of any consequences. She was completely oblivious to any consequences of playing a prank on a diplomat, in view of many potential witnesses, in the Twilight Council. Which is a fun devil-may-care attitude, of course. But also one which could be indicative of a lack of self-restraint.
Krona has rather redeemed herself though in submitting to having her powers examined by Archon, and not using them until that had been completed. Likewise in not having created any major diplomatic incidents in a month of staying with Archon (that we know of anyhow).
Aside from the last couple months, Leon’s dating knowledge was solely garnered from fiction. So when he ended up in a two-girls-one-guy scenario, he probably assumed there were only two possible endings: the Harem Ending or the Bad Ending (trigger warning: character death). Better figure out which one he gets…Ooh, tough luck, buddy.
Naturally, there are other ways it could work out for everyone, and probably none of them are looking for “happily ever after” in the current casual-fling situation, so other neutral endings are possible…but it’s more likely to not work out for anyone. Especially the guy.
Yess, yesssssssss. FEED ME MORE POLYAMORY. THE MIND CRAVES IT.
Poly relationships never get a fair shake in media. This makes me unreasonably happy.
Should read more Harem Manga/Anime. Highschool DxD is very good on that.
“It never occurred to me that this page would trigger such vehement reactions, so maybe that’s on me.”
Yeah, that’s because far too many people on the internet are whiny assed, virtue signaling SJW’s who live to be offended by SOMETHING. You could literally draw a black square on a white background and post it, and SOME NPC IDIOT would find themselves offended by it.
Dont worry about it Dave. You do you, and all your non soyboy/identitarian feminist fans will just keep chugging along.
Dave is a feminist, smart guy.
You do realize that the “SJW” “npcs” types you are referencing are the ones most likely to defend said usage of tropes, instead of oppose them? Personally I’m fed up of seeing this stupid trope, it’s barely funny, and it could be just as funny with them giving him “death looks” and him realizing he messed up, no violence added.
VOTE
First two frames shows how beatiful Sydney is.
Hi. Actual poly person here.
Dave, I know people are mad about Sidney and Krona “talking around” Leon here. But honestly? This is the best possible outcome for the characters you created. Lemme ‘splain.
In my experience, when setting up a triad, the greatest prediction of success or failure is the connection between the duplicated gender. In other words, in an FMF, the two girls absolutely must get along and have good connection, even if it’s not sexual. So Sidney is kind of right to ask Krona about nonmonogamy before Leon. Is she being weird and awkward as fuck to discuss it /in front of/ him? Yes. But it’s Sidney. She’s not exactly the embodiment of social graces AND she’s in completely new-to-her territory here.
I found this page actually heartwarming. Even with the violence-to-men-as-punchline problem (which, thank you for being open to that conversation). She’s still new at this and gonna make mistakes, but my baby girl is trying to be a more evolved human! ❤❤❤
Well I, for one, think Leon’s behavior and treatment make perfect sense. His questions are completely in-character as “male-who-hasn’t-heard-of-polyamory-and-is-maybe-a-bit-hopefully-horney.” I know I’VE definitely said things in moments of horny obliviousness, that I beat myself over the head about later. And Sydny and Krona’s reactions are more than reasonable- you gotta tell a dude when he’s being gross.
The days of multiple intimate partners without consequence are ending btw.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/sexual-health/3-common-stds-becoming-untreatable-what-happens-now-n642161
Huh…I was right AND got jossed…
Cartoon violence AND cartoon threesome fantasies huh? The teremity. I bet Dave’s been getting it from both ends. So to speak.