Grrl Power #735 – Reindeer games and the inclusion thereof
I think it was a fair question, to be honest. Leon maybe could have put it more delicately, but if you’re coming up with a comprehensive list of solutions to Sydney’s conundrum, that question should be asked at some point.
An unfair question, in my opinion, is “Why would you jump straight to that!?” Honestly, if the guy in a M/F/F triangle doesn’t consider the possibility of a threesome at some point… well, I don’t even know what to say to that. I’m not saying every guy in that situation would be bucking for it, some guys might be intimidated by the idea. I mean, there are performance considerations. But he’d still have the idea. Even if he thought it’d be disastrous, it’s probably on a lot of guys’ buckets lists. Heck, it might be on a lot of women’s bucket lists for all I know (though probably the M/F/M variant) but no one should honestly be surprised when a guy mentions it at some point. “Hah hah, I’m just kidding about a threesome, but seriously, what’s the deal with that? It’s a joke! But just for fun, let’s make a short list of your friends and sister… ow!”
So, can Krona hack people’s minds and personalities? Well, we know she can hack people’s bladders at any rate. If she hacked someone who didn’t like pickles so that they liked pickles, is she hacking their mind or their tongue?
The answer is, given Archon’s reaction to the news that she might be able to hack time, Krona has not been at all forthcoming as to the extent of her abilities. She doesn’t hold a grudge against Maxima, she understands what Archon was worried about, but she doesn’t want to give them any additional ammunition when it comes to evaluating her threat level. As for us readers, we’ll just have to wait and see.
Edit: Huh. Well, reaction to this page has caught me by surprise. I didn’t think anything of the ‘little girl gives guy a bonk on the head for acting like a dope’ trope but a lot of people are reacting like Sydney and Krona are attacking Leon with knives. Which, again, is surprising, considering that they’re not (cartoon bumps ≠ medical emergency) considering that Sydney could obviously cause grievous bodily harm if she wanted to. Krona could at the very least make Leon wet himself or make his keys move 10 feet from where he normally keeps them, and in my case that would mean they would effectively be lost forever.
Okay, so a few points. Some people are saying Leon isn’t even being included in the discussion, but Sydney’s question about monogamy was for both of them. It’s just that Leon jumped straight to the sexual aspect of it. Granted, both Krona and Sydney assumed that he’d be okay with it. They happened to be correct.
For anyone asking if it’d be okay if the situation was reversed and two guys were beating up on a girl? I mean, part of me wants to say that if it was playful little arm punches, in an ideal world free of all trace of sexism… yes? But that’s not the world we live in. In the real world, while there is such a thing as female on male violence, domestic or otherwise, I don’t think anyone can argue that a shitload more women get beaten or killed by men than the other way around. So no, of course the reversal of the above situation wouldn’t work.
But – I’ll give it some thought. It never occurred to me that this page would trigger such vehement reactions, so maybe that’s on me.
I have a book recommendation. This one is not a harem book nor does it have any sex in it (I know, who are you and what have you done with Dave, hah hah) but it is a superhero book, and I’ve been burning through the series ever since I picked up the first one. As you can see (or not, the thumbnail is kind of small) it’s called Arsenal, and is about a wheelchair bound super tinkerer who develops a suit of armor and proceeds to kick a lot of butt. (She can kick in the armor. And walk.) Of course she upgrades the armor constantly. I’m halfway through the 6th book, and I think she’s up to the Mark VII now? Good stuff. Oh, and half the books have egregious cliffhangers, so be prepared for that. :)
Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. $1 and up, but feel free to contribute as much as you like.
SuperheroThey're super, thanks for asking!
Meatspace ComicSeriously these are awesome. Check 'em out!
Not UpdatingNo longer updating or only updates sporadically, but definitely worth reading.
SeriouslySeriously you guys. If you like Grrl Power the check these out.
"Mature"Mature subject matter and occasionally something explicit but usually safe. Can't guarantee the ads are safe though.
Dongs Ahoy!Full frontal and backal. Lots of skin, sex on some or all pages, explicit or otherwise.
Why are people acting like Leon was actually hurt here?
Sure he has bumps but they have plasters on so its fine.
Some people seem to take slapstick humor very seriously.
It’s only ‘humor’ because it’s the male getting hit. If this situation was reversed, say two guys trying to figure out how to share Heatwave between them while leaving her out of the conversation – and every time she chimed in they hit her in the head and acted like she was stupid for agreeing, you would NOT be laughing.
If it would be sexist for a man to do to a female, then it is sexist for a female to do to a man.
If she is as chill with the whole thing as Leon is here, i don’t see a problem with it. In panel 4 he already recieved his first beating and he does not seem to care. If he was showing any signs of real pain, it would be a different story.
To be fair, they ARE leaving him out of the conversation. On the other hand, his boundaries with the whole polygamy thing seem to be further than theirs and the boundary that might actually be crossed should be the most relevant one imo.
He received his first (undeserved) beating prior to panel one
Leon imagined it, no one touched anyone.
What makes you say that?
So, what difference is it between the two lumps in Panel One, and the four lumps in Panel Eight? o_O
Simply that we didn’t see them through their boots at him? O_o
Lack of objection does not indicate that a person is okay with the situation. As in a lot of abuse cases, the victim never steps forward, or even supports the abuser. This is NOT because the victim is “chill” with it. There are plenty of books on this subject if you wish to educate yourself.
Leon can’t be considered to “be chill” with it. He’s stunned from four distinct cranial impacts that can be confirmed & documented by any medical professional.
He’ll have to be treated as if he might have a concussion, which means he can’t possibly be held accountable for anything he’s been saying since the first lump was given to him.
Leon clearly has a concussion, and a bit of social stupidity, or he would just remain silent and let them work it out. Nothing he could possibly say since last page could possibly move things any more in his favor than they are going already.
His desire to understand them is the source of his blunders.
That being said, the two women are guilty of battery, possibly sexual battery due to the subject matter, and there is no excuse. If there ARE eavesdroppers, then every person witnessing this is subject to military review.
It will be interesting to see if something along those lines happens.
It’s a fuckin joke you fuckin maniacs
I think thats taking it a bit too far. The bumps are clearly anime style, to signify they hit him, not actual bumps. Theres no concussion.
Pander -If they were literal boots that contacted him, then it’s battery. If there is a bruise, it is aggravated battery.
Legally, battery does not require anything other than unwanted physical contact. If you reach out and touch someone’s arm when they don’t want you to, it’s battery.
Physical harm is an aggravating factor, not an element of the crime.
Establishing sexual battery in this case is unlikely, since no erogenous zone was contacted and, even though the subject under discussion was sexual, no one was aroused in that way before/during/by the act.
Mint – This is a rational discussion about real life, human relations, and the story line. If you can’t handle that kind of discussion, then perhaps you should be swearing at yourself instead of us, and get some counseling.
You made some errors about battery. I think the ‘anime bumps’ are basically symbolic to show that Leon did get hurt, although it’s not ‘actual bumps’ which is why I said he did not actually have a concussion. The entire context of the strip suggests he just got hurt (‘ow! that hurt a lot!’ and maybe a bruise or small bump, but not ‘drive me to a hospital, I have internal cranial swelling). It’s just exxagerated anime style injury in art to symbolize that the person was minorly injured as a result.
Actually, battery is, criminally, any physical act that results in harmful or offensive contact with another person without that person’s consent. It doesn’t actually require injury, although it helps to prove the ‘harmful’ part of the elements. But it could also just be ‘offensive contact’ which does not require any injury at all. So battery can result in injury or no injury. It just depends on if there was consent to be contacted physically. He did not consent to a boot being thrown at him, and the bumps signify he was hurt as a result, even if they were ‘anime bumps meant to signify injury’ rather than actual bumps that big. So yes, it’s battery.
As for aggravated battery, while it varies from state to state, in general it means ‘serious bodily harm’ – which means more than a bruise usually. Or at least that there was an ‘intent to cause serious bodily harm’ (which I don’t think they were intending, although they were intending bodily harm).
The law considers a difference between bodily harm and serious bodily harm. Again, state to state varies, but in general, it requires a deadly weapon (a knife, a rock, a gun, etc). A boot is usually not considered a deadly weapon, although a judge could possibly be convinced that it is. It’s unlikely, though. Most people who are the victims of a serious battery aren’t going to still be chatting with the perpetrators in a conversational manner. Aggravated battery can also be from a ‘hate crime’ if the jurisdiction recognizes that, or if the victim is a particularly vulnerable person, like the elderly or a child.
However physical crime alone is an element of the crime. The AMOUNT of physical crime and the intent behind it is what changes battery to aggravated battery.
Also … In tort law, the elements of the tort are just the intentional causation of harmful or offensive contact with another’s person without that person’s consent. No injury is necessary at all, although it does help with the ‘damages’ portion of a lawsuit.
In addition, there would be no sexual battery at all here. Because there was no sexual element involved in the action, even if the discussion was related to sex. So yes, you are correct there :)
And yes, Mint definitely does not seem to be able to handle a rational discussion. But like I said in another post, this comment forum is pretty unique in how most of the people can argue without namecalling, with one or two outliers. Mint’s obviously one of those outliers :).
I’ll drop this counterpoint. I’ve seen people say and do stupid things, get called out on it, and ten seconds later do another equally stupid thing. Sometimes it takes awhile for people to realize that what they’re saying / doing is genuinely stupid and that shutting up and retreating (if possible) is the smartest thing they can do.
They also seem to forget how often Dabbler has been punched or put through walls by Maxima for doing inappropriate stuff (surprising Max after a shower for example). Sure, she can take more punishment than Leon, but Maxima also hits a lot harder than Sydney. Neither of these two have super strength, they are just regular 5′ girls without any exceptional physical training (the single day of training Syd has done is not going to do much).
Had they used their powers, it may have been a bit different, but even then: Usually no one gets actually hurt in slapstick scenes.
Have any of you watched pokemon? Team Rocket would have died the first time they were launched over the horizon. Ash (a kid) was incinerated by his Charizard (a giant drake) multiple times.
Please don’t let those drama comments get to you, Dave.
Jeesh, this has turned into more of a rant than i initially wanted.
The thing that is the problem is that it is being played for laughs, like you said. If it were seriously happening, and had an appropriate response from Leon to being struck, then it would be fine. The problem is that it’s a gag.
So no, don’t act like we’re all in the wrong and Dave isn’t. Don’t shoot the rest of us down like we don’t have a point just because you can’t find it in yourself to agree due to your own limited perceptions. Dave made a mistake here and he needs to own up to it. Either redo this whole interaction, or make it serious and have Leon tell both of them they need to step back and leave him be for the time being.
Much as I am not a fan of injury based comedy (or embarrassment based, or misunderstanding based… or most of the other ‘staples of comedy’), and as much as the idea of hitting/being hit by others upsets me… I’ve got to say, I don’t take issue with this trope.
It’s a staple of certain genres of comedy (mostly illustrated) that is over the top and unrealistic (like those girls who swing a hammer at the slightest provocation, or those guys who karate chop people (sometimes both male and female) for being idiots) and should not be taken seriously. I do not take these as actual physical injury moments, I’m not sure what the real world equivalent would be to punching someone on the head (though I’ve knows people to soft throw their shoes and elicit a joking ow, or a “you chopped off my arm/I’m dying” style humorous reaction), but it wouldn’t be reeling back and socking them in the face.
I get that people are uncomfortable with this content, and I don’t think they are wrong to be uncomfortable with it, but I don’t think Dave is wrong to create or share it, nor do I think he should alter it.
I’d like to add that there are many moments that even knowing that it’s over the top and unrealistic, such as when one party makes a mistake/does something embarrassing/puts the other in a dangerous/’no win’ situation/gets angry because they weren’t catered too, and then that same party attacks, it’s a whole different can of worms, because then they are punishing the person for their own flaws, and that’s never right. If you make a mistake, you don’t punish the other person for it.
Girls hitting girls will NOT evoke the same reaction as guys hitting girls.
Imagine if you will… instead of maxima it is stalwart who is putting dabbler through walls/furniture/etc.
The problem is a double standard of male to female relationships where it is ok for women to do it to men, but not the other way around… And part of the problem is that society has actually entrenched this. A coworker of mine had his ex attack him and he locked himself in the bathroom and called 911, and they clearly have her pounding on the door and screaming obscenities on the recording and he had the damage… And the police showed up and arrested HIM.
I don’t particularly mind it in this context, but I think the fact that this is normalized/acceptable is problematic given how visceral the reaction would be if the situation is reversed.
I’m not defending violence in real life situatios, no matter who does it to whom. Especially domestic abuse. And yes, the double standard you described is a real problem. What happened to your coworker IS awful.
But this is not a real life situation. Also, Leon is not showing any sign of being in actual pain.
Also also, i don’t think the double standard will go away if we keep applying it. So i treat this situation the same as same sex slapstick. There wasn’t nearly this outrage (not that you specifically seem outraged) in similar situations like https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-591-florence-dark-knightingale/ , the page after that, or https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-72-punk-busted/ or https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-97-this-is-the-martial-artists-version-of-pulling-on-her-pigtails/
Also also also, keep in mind that Maxima can hit harder than anyone else on the team, including the guys. And in those examples the affected actually showed pain, unlike here.
1: Those were A: an incident where Dabbler was presumably malingering for sympathy (Maxima even calls her out on it), and B: a sparring session between Math and Anvil.
2: None of them are sexual partners with each other. That’s roughhousing between martial comrades. HUUUUGE difference.
Alno –
The difference, as I see it, is all those examples were the results of payback of pranks, or mutual sparring. Hitting Leon here is in every case the result of the women simply not liking something he said in reply to what THEY suggested. Purely his words, no actions, no incitement.
In the last one, there is no excuse for them being even surprised…. Sydney prefaced the question with a reference to Cora and Dabbler, for Peter’s sake.
Luckily, there is a magic healer on premises, so there should be no further brain damage. However, I would like some social repercussions to occur. A couple of pages hence, if Leon decides to drop them both in order to date someone who (a) is taller and (b) doesn’t hit him,, then I’ll laugh pretty loud.
Again, personally, for me, it’s not the cartoon violence that bothers me, so much as they are blaming Leon for having thoughts created by Sydney’s comments
On that point i agree, Syd has herself to blame for that. At least the threesome comment. He was just trying to clarify there. Bringing up Pixel again on the last page was his… tactical error imo.
Again, it was an idea that Sydney instigated
Is your only reference for media Hallmark movies?
No one was hit! That was Leon’s imagination.
Okay, I’m going to leave aside the violence aspect of it (because I don’t have a 10′ pole handy) and just make recommendations to the characters.
Krona, good response, have a nice long hard think about it, but lay down the ground rule of “no polyamory UNTIL and UNLESS I say so”. Leon still has the right to dump you for Sydney, and you have the right to be unhappy if he does, but until one or the other happens you’re exclusive. (Probably. I mean we live in a society where that’s a default assumption, even if they never talked about it. There’s nothing wrong with open relationships, but that’s something you should communicate.)
Leon, you’re smarter than this. Mentally QC your comments before opening your mouth. …. unless you’re into a couple of super-chicks getting hot and bothered about what you say and taking it out on you physically, in which case, you’re right on target.
Sydney, what you need to do right now is become besties with Krona. Go have a girl’s night out where you hit a retro arcade and a bar, in whatever order. No one else along, especially not Leon. Don’t mention Leon unless Kora brings him up — this is about forging a bond with Kora, not talking about the man you hope to share. And no, it’s not manipulative, you already think she’s cool, so make friends with her no matter what she decides.
*unless Krona brings him up grrrrr stupid brain not able to process similar names
I literally do not think Leon said ANYTHING wrong at all. And this is from a woman’s perspective. I would have thought the same exact thing after what Sydney suggested. And they really do seem to be treating Leon as property without actually getting his say on it. Since when he says anything, he is physically attacked. And i t’s not like having a shoe thrown at you does not hurt. I feel bad for guys sometimes because they’re in this Catch-22 situation when a girl is the violent one, which happens a lot more often than you’d think. Especially since, in modern culture, most guys make sure to hold back on physical things with girls (for good reason). But girls tend to not get told the same thing, and a lot of times they go way overboard because of that, violence-wise, both when beign physically violent to other girls OR to men. I’ve noticed this both in criminal cases and also from anecdotal cases that my cousin has told me about regarding domestic violence calls where he and his partner are called in (his partner is a woman and has the same opinions as him about how violent the women can be). Most of the time, the guy is going to get arrested or detained, even if he’s the one who called because the woman was being violent. And when the girl calls, he’s obviously definitely getting arrested, even if the girl changes her mind.
Also men are rarely ‘smart’ when it comes to two girls who are low-key fighting over them. :) But Leon really did not say anything worthy of being hit or them telling him off.
Again, not touching the violence side of this. I don’t disagree with most of what you said, and I agree it’s a serious issue, but it’s being thoroughly discussed already and I wanted a chance to comment on stuff OTHER than that.
I agree that he’s not said or done anything here meriting a violent response. My only point of disagreement is his last line on this page MIGHT be worth telling him off for, depending on intention. (If it’s just asking about power sets, that’s probably okay. If he’s suggesting his girlfriend LITERALLY reprogram herself so he can have a mini-harem, that could be worth a dressing down.) The rest of it… well, none of it’s WRONG, but it’s definitely subject to bad timing and phrased so it’s prone to misinterpretation.
And I agree in the abstract that they’re, um, negotiating over him like he’s not there, especially following Sydney’s declarative “we shall date” three pages earlier, but the stuff he’s said makes it sound like he’s amenable to the idea, at least. Krona’s sounding less-amenable, so it makes sense that they’d be focusing first and foremost on whether she’s okay with it or not.
Leon is coming at the problem like it’s a computer problem. Which makes sense, since he’s a geek and a nerd. It’s not even hacking someone else’s brain. It’s hacking your own brain, which… um… everyone does even without super powers. If you want to lose weight, you make yourself go on a diet and make yourself exercise by sticking to a regimen. You basically try to reprogram yourself to solve a problem. She doesn’t HAVE to do it, but it’s one possible solution that he presented. She could just say ‘no hon, I’m not doing that’ and not need to throw boots at him. :)
Yeah, but this is the difference between deciding you’re overweight and going on a diet and exercise regime yourself, and your boyfriend strongly implying you’re overweight and couldn’t you go on a diet.
Except it’s not diet and exercise or other potentially-just-health concerns, it’s him wanting to see someone else and you at the same time, and you’re “overweight” for being hesitant about that.
Again, hacking your OWN brain is what we call, in the non-super world, ‘making a decision’ or ‘changing your mind.’ :)
For example, lets say your parent, or your spouse, or your friend, is worried about you, because you eat a lot of food which is unhealthy for you and they ask you to please go on a diet and they’d help you with an exercise regimen. That’s basically like hacking your mind (and body while we’re at it). It’s not violating someone else, because it’s you doing something to yourself that isn’t harmful. It’s also not like she would be doing it in a way where she was not aware of it.
Also, if you want to take one of those courses to improve your memory or learn how to speed-read, you are ‘hacking your own mind’ there as well. If you engage in one of those courses which let you use subliminal messages to make you not want to smoke, and you do so knowingly and willingly, that again is hacking your own mind. And totally legal and not evil.
Now…. if Leon had said ‘can’t you just hack Sydney’s mind’ – that would be evil. Because you would be taking away someone ELSE’S sovereignty over their own decisions, against their will. THAT would be like mind-rape.
It’s not a violation, no. But it is undo, untoward pressuring. Maybe not in the case of diet and exercise, but there’s two ways that this is a not-perfect analogy.
First, as mentioned, there is a health element to diet and exercise, but there is not one to being open to an open relationship. (Well, okay, heightened STD considerations, but that would cut the other way if we were to factor it in.)
And second, it’s considerably more personal. We tend to view our bodies as at a bit of a remove from our minds. Yes, they’re us, or a part of us, but they’re not as personal, private, or defining as our personalities, private thoughts, preferences, and predilections. The implication (likely unintentional, and perhaps not an accurate representation of Leon’s feelings, but still an easy interpretation to draw) is that Leon does not approve and accept Krona for who she is and would rather she was someone else.
Again, not a violation, I agree with you there, but it could easily be in the territory of faux-pas, insult, or crass and degrading comment depending on tone and intention. Not EVIL, but edging into the territory of being an asshole.
You should check out statistics on this sometime.
It’s true that if you lump all the types of physical hostility into one, undifferentiated basket, men and women are equally prone to physical expressions of anger.
HOWEVER, the moment you grade these by the severity of outcome, it becomes very clear why we look at male and female DV differently. The number of men killed or hospitalized by a violent woman are vanishingly small; the reverse, sadly, is appallingly common.
That’s because men have been conditioned not to report their injuries, certainly not if it was from a woman
And if they do report it, they are the ones who get charged or ridiculed: “You, a 6 foot tall, 200 pound man, put into hospital by a 5 foot 4, 120 pound woman? Come on, tell the truth, how did you really sustain injuries to a third of your body?”
I literally have worked in the ADA’s office, and my cousin is a police officer. And I’ve explained the disparity also in other posts. Also, I’m a woman that works in a largely male-dominated field (intellectual property law), so it’s not like I’m letting rampant sexism or misogyny color my opinions. And no, I also do not have ‘internalized misogyny.’ :)
Men are the victims of violence by women at nearly the same level as women being victims of violence by men (significantly moreso when weapons are involved), even before you take into account that the violence against men which does NOT result in an arrest is actually higher (because of not reporting, police not arresting the women… or arresting both the woman and the man even if the man was not the one being violent, and the DA refusing to prosecute). I’ve seen women beating and clawing at men who were doing nothing back, captured on video, and the judge will give a light sentence or just a fine (usually the man will get a better result in civil court than in criminal court, though). It’s also more ‘culturally’ accepted for violence to be taken against men than against women. There’s a physiological reaction that most men AND women have when they see a woman being hurt or killed in entertainment media that they do not experience when the same thing happens to a man in most forms of entertainment media.
Also, the number of men killed or hospitalized by violent women is NOT vanishingly small. That’s a false statement. There’s a movie called ‘The Red Pill’ by Cassie Jaye (who was a pretty ardent feminist until she made the documentary and saw how much violence is perpetrated at men) that you probably would find fascinating to watch. There was another woman who dressed as a man for a year to see how much male privilege they get, and by the end, she had totally changed her mind and needed therapy to deal with how beset she felt men were in society. And the number of women killed by violent men is NOT rising at a staggering rate either (it’s decreasing). Very often, it’s skewed by false reports which bring in fake headlines like ‘one in four women will be raped in college’ (which is utterly untrue – not even remotely close to accurate).
What you are actually mis-stating (probably without realizing it) is the fact that on the EXTREMES, the most violent people are men. In the sam e way as the most suicides are men, the most people in jail are men, most people who lose their shirts in a divorce are men, most people who pay alimony are men (even if the woman makes more money), the most people killed in workplace accidents are men, the most homeless people are men, the richest people are men, the poorest people are men, etc. Men tend to have more people in the extremes of a curve, while women tend to bunch more more towards the center. When you use the extremes and ignore the rest of the bell curve, you get a very skewed idea of what the majority of statistics show.
If I recall correctly, it’s slightly more than 50% of domestic violence is perpetrated by women, and in more than half of violent incidents by males, the first punch is thrown by the female. I narrowly escaped one of those relationships in my twenties, and I literally have the bite marks on the sides of my nose to prove it. (I’ve forgotten which of my other scars came from her, but those are unique.)
you know that FFM 3-somes does not necessarily mean girl on girl action, it can mean the 2 girls having sex with just the man at the same time, just like MMF does not mean necessarily gay sex ………………. also, does this mean that Sidney would allow Krona to hook up with Frix if krona wanted to?
Sydney has no claim over Frix. That was more of a friends-with-benefits situation. … Even though they weren’t friends yet at the time, and she was just having sex with a stranger because she thought he was hot and banging a furry was on her bucket list.
The only one who has any kind of claim over Frix that we know of is our esteemed ship’s captain, as the crew is her harem.
That doesn’t stop Sydney from staking her claim anyway (remember her comment when Dabbles was honking his horn? and it’s clearly implied that Dabbles has ‘known’ Frix for much longer than she has known Sydney)
Dave, I was mildly annoyed by the original subject but then you added your edit and that annoyed me enough to make my first post ever. Statistically there is very little difference between the number of men and women abused in relationships and it’s that assumption that it mostly only occurs to women that keeps anything from being done about it.
numbers run by the national coalition against domestic violence show men and women are both around 48% likely to suffer from psychological abuse in a relationship, the difference between physical assault in a relationship isn’t far off either with roughly 30% of women being physically attacked vs 25% of men being attacked in a relationship. The only serious difference in rates of abuse between men and women is in the severe physical injury/death and even then it’s not nearly as large a gap as many believe, being around 24% women to 14% men.
Your statement about a world without a hint of sexism, that’s just as bad as actual sexism. You’re assuming women are weak and men are violent beasts. It’s the same vein as the racism of low expectations most of the left assuming every minority is a victim that could never succeed on their own merit.
“I don’t think anyone can argue that a shitload more women get beaten or killed by men than the other way around.”
Killed? Yeah, because the average guy is a lot tougher physically than the average girl. Beaten? Actually the stats say, no, women are violent as often as men.
They just happen to punch like girls, so fewer hospital visits result.
Yeah, and because they ‘punch like girls’, they tend to use weapons, like frying pans, or literally anything else they can lift and either throw or wield
Please, you fucking idiot. Stop before you further embarrass yourself.
You’re claiming that a man can’t lift a weapon? Like no woman has ever suffered abuse at the hands of a man who simply used a weapon against her instead of his fists?
You are a dumbfuck.
Actually, Oberon, the difference in strength means that men don’t NEED to raise weapons, so your jumping to personal invective is unwarranted. Your jumping from Guesticus’s statement that women “tend to”, directly to pretending that he had claimed that no man ever did, is your own absurdity, not his.
I don’t know whether the claim that women use weapons is correct statistically, but I can say that in the one such relationship I suffered, she quickly escalated from slaps and punches to thrown objects, etc. However, in a similar female-violence-driven situation I have witnessed, it never progressed beyond punches, to my knowledge. YMMV.
The other thing about women/men beaten/killed, is that the statistics about women killed by intimate partners include those killed by women (small point) and also include those killed after leaving the relationship.
Any discussion of the kind of violence we are seeing here CANNOT rely on the number of murders after leaving the relationship as a justification for it being okay. That’s just perverse.
Oberon, it’s not that men cannot lift a weapon. It’s that, statistically, they are less likely to than a woman is likely to use a weapon against a man. Usually because of the massive strength and endurance disparity between men and women if one is actively looking to injure the other EFFECTIVELY. Guesticus isn’t saying it does not happen. He (or she, I forget whether Guesticus is a man or woman) is just bringing up the comparative frequencies of weapons vs no weapons.
Also when they bring up qualifiers like ‘killed’ rather than ‘attacked’ it skews the numbers as well.
Sort of like when people bring up suicide rates of men vs women. Women are more likely to attempt suicide, but men are more likely to SUCCEED at committing suicide, so death by suicide is a LOT higher for men than women, to a point where it’s not even close.
Women are FAR more likely to use a weapon to attack a man than a man is likely to use a weapon to attack a woman, mostly because of the strength disparity and also because the most aggressive people do tend to be men. But that’s only at the extremes. On the median, it’s closer to 55%/45% with violence with hitting (not accounting for how often it isnt even reported because it’s more humiliating for a man to be hurt by a woman, while in our culture, women who are victims do tend to garner a protectiveness from society in general), and with weapons (perhaps a steel-toed boot?) it actually skews more toward women (since men are more likely to abuse unarmed).
Women also tend, statistically, to be more destructive in fights (throwing things, breaking things, etc), unless alcohol is involved (in which case the man is more destructive in fights). There’s a Canadian psychologist named Jordan Peterson who published quite a few peer reviewed studies on this, although more recently he’s been involved in writing what are basically self-help books and doing debates on religion and male/female relationships
Does he have any advice about the bravery of the lobster and how to fight Tiamat?
Tiamat can only be beaten by maintaining your hierarchical status and having a big left claw.
I love that you two have obviously watched Jordan Peterson in order to make these jokes :)
Yet another reason I love this comic’s comment forum.
Heh. Much appreciated. I like the man, especially his superpower of being Canadian. The interview with that BBC woman was amazing.
Petersen: “I have personally worked with clients who were women executives and resulted in tripling their income within eighteen months…”
BBC: “So you’re saying… that women are styupid… and can’t be executives…”
Petersen “… Nooooo … that’s not what I’m saying…”
The interview with Cathy Newman was admittedly pretty epic.
Yeah. It was like she had a set of predigested hit questions she had to tick through and couldn’t hear anything he said, she just had to read the next one.
You would expect a decent journalist to follow up on a claim like that. That’s incredible. I don’t remember his exact numbers, seems like “tripled their income in 18-24 months” was the order of magnitude. I was thinking, holy crap. Petersen could PERSONALLY end the executive gender pay gap if he can do that consistently.
Unfortunately, with Newman so baked into her predigested narrative, there’s no followup, so no telling how true it might have been, or how much of a special case.
My favorite part, aside from the ‘Gotcha’ moment, was where she asked who was he to give his opinion, and his response was “I’m a clinical psychologist.” Which I found hilarious since that literally is his job, and he’s one of the foremost experts in the world when it comes to clinical psychology, with thousands of academically peer reviewed papers on the subjects about which she was questioning him. :)
Btw, for anyone who doesn’t know what the heck Dal and weirdee and I are talking about… it’s this textbook example on how to handle a hostile interviewer with class and intelligence. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54
I’m going to agree with this guy. Dave, that edit was uncalled for and I am now incredibly disappointed. You’re making it sound as though because (you think, incorrectly) vastly more women are beaten by men that somehow violence of women against men is okay to be shown as humor – when in a reversed gender situation, it would never be remotely acceptable and it sounds like even you would find it ooky to draw and write even for laughs.
As a survivor of a female rapist (both myself and my partner, separately), as someone who came through slightly more than a third of my relationships with women both physically and psychologically abused, I find this idea you seem to have to be incredibly frustrating, because it’s the same kind of ignorance that makes it so hard for battered males and victims of female rapists to come forward in today’s society.
If we speak up, we hear things like “It was just a girl hitting you, you’re fine.” or “Chick raped you? Man, you’re just scared of pussy.” from the men. And “You deserved it.” or “Women can’t rape men, you probably raped her.” from the women. Not to mention the classic “Man up, a girl can’t hurt you.” or “At least you had sex.” from both sides. We have this idea from both sides of the gender line that women are weak, men are strong, and any guy who can’t measure up to a woman is pathetic – ergo, for sight gags we have a ‘pathetic guy’ being beaten up by a woman after saying something figuratively dumb just so you get that ‘he deserved it’ justification to laugh – which is wrong, and sick.
I was one of a small number of local 20-somethings a long while back who got together to create an unofficial trauma chapter for the area. We set up a phone so that people could call and gain confidence about seeking help. This means people who were afraid to go to the police and needed an extra push, or someone to call on their behalf – or people who needed psychiatric help but had notions against doing so, leading to us starting up referrals. We ran for several years, and answering that phone I heard just as many battered males on the other end as I did battered women to the point I had to switch off phone duty for my own aching heart and work on collecting details of clinics and doctors who would accept these patients.
So no, this is not okay, and your edit made it even worse as it shows that it wasn’t just a mistake due to societal imprinting, but that you hold this belief yourself and are mystified why people would be upset about Leon’s treatment here. Due to your edit I can’t chalk this up in the slightest to unreliable narrator/these characters just being bad at being sensible people, since you’ve more or less defended what you put down. This is on you, Dave.
” You’re assuming women are weak and men are violent beasts.”
He’s talking specifically about the subset of people that are abusive, not making a generalization about men or women on the whole. Abusers who are male tend to be more physical about their abuse, because men on average are more physically endowed.
“24% women to 14% men”
That’s still a 100% increase.
My main complaint about it would be more that it’s kind of a lazy comic book shorthand for people giving jovial noogies as a riposte / verbal roasting.
The point of those numbers was simply that people believe the disparity to be far, far greater than that, and act as though it’s the truth on gospel without ever bothering to actually look it up for themselves. As the person said, the numbers are closer than you’d expect. So you bringing that up out of context (and then getting the math wrong, a 100% increase is a doubling, and 14*2 is 28 and not 24, my friend) just feels as though it was written to be contrarian and not actually any sort of refutation. Especially since the person above already stated it’s to show that the numbers are closer than believed, not to say anything about the numbers themselves.
Lazy rushed dyslexic mental rounding. So 70 ish%? It’s not a refutation. Comparing the lethality of subset[gender] of subset[assholes] would be a distraction from his point and yeah maybe I shouldn’t have even responded to it, but if his problem is with the fact that Dave might feel uncomfortable doing slapstick where men smack women? That isn’t a stance that comes from assuming women are weak or men are violent. (subset assholes has violence as a given) That comes more from the “gentlemen don’t touch ladies” cultural perspective and that’s not a bad thing in the real world men have an average physical advantage and a higher chance of causing physical harm in an unarmed altercation. Which of course isn’t to say abusive arsholery is acceptable from anyone but…
This is a comic. Sydney is a card carrying pasty nerd. The imagery is looney-toons over the top, but you have to be reaching to conflate this with real world abuse. Like, if it was Hero bopping Anvil on the head for saying something dumb here, would anyone be upset? If so, why? Because they have more of a background with each other as friends that might express themselves like that? The lack of threat of physical harm? To me, it was worse when Maxima reprimanded harem with an atomic wedgie given that Maxima could reduce Harem to meat chutney with a flick of her finger or just caused one of her clones to drop a knife on her foot or something.
24% women to 14% men is not a 100% increase. Not even remotely anywhere in the ballpark. Not sure what sort of math you used there.
I didn’t have any issue with the ‘violence’ aspect of the comic. I mean, I understand how it could trigger that response, but the fact that they are cartoon bumps and it’s shoes being thrown at his face instead of more solid objects made me totally adopt the mindset that it’s all ridiculous comedy as opposed to mimicking reality. It’s one of those stereotypical things in *all* media: strong women hitting the guy, but not really, for doing something all “hur hur sexy ladies hur hur.” I mean, Krona and Sydney are absolutely among the most powerful beings on the planet (arguably the galaxy and beyond from stuff we’ve thus far seen). They clearly have to exert effort to hold back from actually hurting him. Much like Maxima forgets stuff has weight and such. They are making a point, not actually upset.
I totally agree that it’s going to be natural for any guy going through the options to think of a threesome in this case. I mean, that’s just logically one of the potential options, especially since they haven’t actually discussed any of everyone’s feelings and tastes of the subject. And it’s something that’s held in popular media as something amazing – like a dream goal/bucket list item. So it’s going to be something that occurs to him to consider. Haha, look at porn, a manifestation of all adult sexual fantasies, and you’ll see no end of ridiculous F/F/M videos and situations. It’s clearly a fantasy that exists and is prevalent across the world. Let’s be honest, Leon probably wouldn’t actually want to follow through with it. It’s seriously intimidating to try and please *one* partner, let alone two. And both Sydney and Krona are pretty spectacularly amazingly powerful *and* associate with canonically ‘gorgeous and super’ guys. Krona and Sydney have their pick. And now they’re both wanting the same guy, in a whole group of supers and everything, that isn’t super. You know, power-wise speaking. I mean, his answers to Sydney’s nerd interrogation were seriously impressive. And his reaction to Adrianna’s question about hacking stuff was hilarious.
A threesome would *obviously* not actually happen based only on Sydney’s personality and likes. I only know this because I know her from hundreds of comics haha. Leon has only known her from a few interactions and the long nerd convo after the club visit. And that nerd convo, from what we saw, was all about SciFi and hobbies and such. We don’t really know Krona that well at all by this point to make sort of confident judgement about her tastes and her maturity level. She’s clearly seriously intelligent and wise enough to be cautious about her own powers and the ramifications of using them carelessly, but that’s an entirely different thing from romance and dealing with other people.
I laughed out loud that Leon actually asked the question at first. Just because it’s a stereotypical thing to ask and most guys would expect to be hit upside the head. To be fair, he doesn’t have a lot of experience with the situation or romantic involvement in general. He has literally said as much.
An important aspect of being in a poly relationship is being honest with both yourself and the others in it. Not asking could potentially have been bad as it’s definitely something that even if everyone involved is on board, needs consequences/results to be considered. I mean, let’s be fair, clearly Leon has never been a situation where a threesome was even potentially an option and that can be an intense experience. I’m still intimidated when it’s proposed to me. Haha I don’t want to disappoint the others and I’m not superman. And I’m talking M/M/F option here. Strictly from a “OMG, I need to get into shape for this” point of view, it’s necessary to ask for planning purposes. Leon is clearly a very intelligent guy and despite his inexperience in romance, I’m sure he’s trying to consider multiple options here.
With the amount of ridiculousness that Sydney has thus far displayed (and let’s be fair, Dabbler as well), the cartoon bumps and thrown shoes were totally in line with the feel of the comic. And the conversation itself is far more measured and wise than I would initially expect from Sydney. And Leon’s asking about the threesome was probably purely for the comedic reaction of both women more than anything else.
Long post, butt read it all :D
It was nice to finally read a post that ignored the cartoon-violence and focused on the serious matter: what was actually discussed and how it should affect all parties involved, not just Kronachrome and Sydney
Sydney’s question about monogamy may have been directed to both, butt they both (Kronachrome and Sydney) ignored Leon’s thoughts, twice, as though they felt he would be okay with it and his consent was already assumed
WOW now that the right ways to see it.
Reading all the comment about this page is depressing. It like everyone think it real life but it not.
They feel outrage has if they see themselves has Leon and are victim of domestic violence. I don’t get it this feel much more like a direct response from feminist and SJW that attack white man at every turn. How blinded can they get by there own misgiving. This is not sad, it not disgusting and it not sexist, it just dumb. Many Writer use rape, murder, kidnapping, torture, slavery and psychological bulling and nobody give that much of a response and those are truely disgusting.
Most comment are horrible how can people write those thing and feel ok with themselves……
Sorry Dave most of your reader writing today are white man that feel lost and they don’t know there place in the world anymore, and you just given them a poor reason to vent but a reason none the less. It not your fault it not there ether but don’t take it personnal, I found this page good enough to make me smile and I too would throw something at him for how much is mind is in the gutter in this serious conversation.
And for all the dumb ass I am not a female and nether am I a Feminist.
You dismiss everyone posting here who has an issue with what’s going on with one broad sweeping generalization, then you insult us, then you attempt to discredit us, then you address Dave directly in the same post as if ignoring us and acting as if he can do no wrong.
Then add in the fact you add ‘white man’, making this a racial issue and outing yourself as a likely white-hating SJW. The opinions of racists are not valid, I’m not sorry to say.
Oh, and FYI. I’m a black man, and I’m looking down on you for your anti-white sentiments. Racism, just like sexism, goes both ways, and you are an example of that. You are a bad person.
DaveB, you’ve got a racist defending this page now, and trying to say you’ve done nothing wrong. I hope that’s a bit of an eye-opener.
GT, I can’t help but get the feeling that this comic incited a particularly strong reaction from you, but that the comic itself was a trigger / reminder rather than the cause, and that your reaction has a lot more to do with those other factors than the comic itself.
And, your “you’ve got a racist defending this page now” comment is so far over the line that you’ll need an aetherium causeway to find your way back.
I’m pretty sure G.T. mentioned that he was a victim of some sort of sexual molestation by a woman, which is probably why he has a particularly strong reaction to this.
However I don’t think Tenmousu said anything particularly racist, although I’m not sure why he mentioned ‘white’ when describing the reader base. That part was unnecessary – btw Tenmousu, speaking for myself, I’m not white, nor am I a guy. But I agree with a lot of the people who were bringing up problems with the messaging of the whole ‘it’s funny when a woman hits a man for no good reason, even though it’s offensive when a man hits a woman.’ At least when it comes to Leon, who honestly did not say anything terrible – it was a normal response to what Sydney was saying. And semi-jokingly so.
The messaging of today’s comic was problematic though (even if it’s clear it was meant to be in jest, like how it is on many sitcoms), talked about by more people than just G.T. DaveB does seem to have gotten that idea though, even if he didn’t seem to realize that there is quite a bit of female-on-male violence even when compared with male-on-female violence (the latter of which at least has a social stigma against it, as opposed to the former).
@Mike A
This is another one of those double standard things.
If someone started talking about how they must be black because… you would have no problem if someone called them a racist. It is societally acceptable to call them out for that.
If you talk about something “because they are white” then you can’t call them a racist? Saying that all these people must be “white men” who “feel lost” is absolutely racist, as well as sexist… And the fact that society doesn’t consider it socially acceptable to call people targetting white people for being white racist is problematic.
Besides the fact that he misses the point, and how many of the comments were posted by women (so obviously not men, that is his sexism coming out)… Immediately making it a racial issue and saying that they “must be white” is racist.
@Torsion – the word “racist” isn’t useful in this context, since it’s been redefined so many times by the left. Use “bigot”, which is more supportable and where they can’t argue which definition is being used.
You don’t even have to use the full phrase “racial bigot”… Tenmosu just projected all kinds of nonsense onto the posters **as a group** in an attempt not to have to understand our individual experiences and perspectives. There’s probably not a single person here (other than me) who is expressing my exact view of the matter, from my lived experiences.
I can assure you, Tenmosu, I know my place in the world, I’m not a victim, I’m not venting, and if you would throw something at Leon in that situation, there is something seriously wrong with you. Not the least because you said you are not a woman, so the only person you could BE in that comic is Leon or a guy bystander who would have had the same questions.
So, your projections about white men are based solely on some kind of bogus stereotyping. If you would like to retain your bigotry, then that is your choice. on the other hand, there are plenty of individual white men and others on this forum that you can get to know as individuals, if you would like to experience some real diversity of thought in your group of friends. Welcome aboard.
THAT ALL BEING SAID, the lumps on Leon’s head are clearly intended to be silly cartoon signifiers, rather than actual damage. Yes, there is an ethical problem with blithely allowing women to be violent to men while not allowing the reverse, especially in a superpowered environment. But, as long as it’s well done and doesn’t persist very long, it won’t lose him many readers.
This is why I said in my last post on the previous comic about Sydney messing up a great thing Leon has with Krona. Because as Leon honestly pointed out, he hasn’t had a lot of experience with women, so why would he bring a third-party into this when it could blow up so easily in his face?
Be…cause Sydney wants it to blow up so Leon feels vulnerable and she can swoop in and give him ‘comfort’, before flying back to Frix
I really hope not.
I mean, Krona and Sydney are absolutely among the most powerful beings on the planet (arguably the galaxy and beyond from stuff we’ve thus far seen). They clearly have to exert effort to hold back from actually hurting him. Much like Maxima forgets stuff has weight and such.
Not to single out a particular point, but this is incorrect. Both of their superpowers are neither physical, nor intrinsic. IOW, they are physically the same strength as a non-super of the same build. The comic wher Max forgets stuff has weight demonstrated it perfectly, Sydney was barely able to move Ole Painless because her strength is on the low end of normal (because of her small size and lack of working out).
Not that this makes it okay, but multiple posters have said this is a case of supers abusing a non-super and I wanted to address it. Your post was simply the one that I could address most directly.
Considering the violence-in-comics discussion: I liked Tom & Jerry best while they were allowed to pummel each other with military hardware.
Comics is the epitomical place for exaggeration. A band-aid adorned bulge on the noggin could as likely result from a stern talking to as from an applied-for-giggles anvil, which doesn’t matter at all since nobody got actually hurt.
The “Kids, don’t do this at home!” sticker is implied by the very format.
I enjoyed today’s page and can’t help to remark that a few of the oh-so-concerned commentary voices sound more butthurt than anything else.
There’s a difference in cartoon violence, and playing sexist abuse as a joke. If this had happened more seriously, it would be a story element, and Leon should have more to say on it – that would have made it absolutely fine. It would show us that the girls are doing wrong, and Leon is not okay with his treatment, and that they can deal with this by being rational adults afterwards, or calling it quits here.
Instead they’re essentially ignoring him, and when he goes along with something Sydney brings up he’s hit by both of them ‘for laughs’. That kind of thinking has made it ridiculously difficult for battered males to be taken seriously. Even Dave says that it’d be wrong if the genders were reversed – which means he thinks it’s not okay for men to beat a woman ‘for laughs’ in a silly way, but it is okay for a man to be beaten ‘for laughs’.
That’s a sexist double-standard. If you don’t think so, that’s more telling of you than it is something wrong with the rest of us.
This feels like every anime I’ve ever watched in the last 20 years! I’m getting flash backs of most of Rumiko Takashi’s works, EVA, and Love Hina!
True, but sexism is more prevalent and less stigmatized in eastern culture than western…
Confuseious, I get what you’re saying about cartoon slapstick humor. It feels a bit out of place sometimes in Grrl Power precisely because part of the premise is that GP is (to paraphrase) “the real world . . . with super powers.”
In other words, most of action and reaction is supposed to be taking place in a world that has the same laws (civil, criminal, physical) as the real world, tweaked a bit to allow for the existence of super abilities, magic, aliens, etc. that (we assume) aren’t around in our world.
Usually, the bits that are meant to be cartoonish are clearly demarked (drawn in chibi style, placed outside the panel, etc.). When they aren’t, it can get really uncomfortable, really quickly. Genre affects reaction. How distressing is the violence in a Bugs Bunny or Tom and Jerry cartoon? Now, how distressing is the violence in Watership Down, or Rats of NIMH?
Big +1 from me. I was trying to write something similar, but too little time to formulate it properly. Considering the general media type, history of this comic (first hilarious scene that cemented my interest is girl giving judo flip to a guy, by grabbing his TONGUE) and many other examples of over-the-top comic exaggeration (unmaker, cook wearing hazmat suit or gas-mask, literally dropping Anvil on someone’s head)… real-life equivalent of this scene is girl giving slight bump to the arm for “impure thoughts”, and guy acting like he’s dying from the wound. All of that in jest, among friends. The people seeing domestic violence here… they may have good reasons, but I think the main problem is within them. I enjoyed this page the same as many others. It fits perfectly with the rest of the comic.
Trying to see why they like him…
The real question is: what does he see in them?
They are both ignoring his opinions and feelings and discussing him like a side of meat that they are going to share
this I have an ongoing problem with. Dave thinks he made it clear that he was addressing both of them. But to me it looked more Ike Syd considers Karona’s opinion to be more important. Which I think is why some people think Leon’s break no trated as an afterthought.
She shesh typoitus
Seeing how most people don’t know how to navigate to earlier comment pages, will post this here
Personally didn’t have a problem with the clearly cartoon violence, for me, it was both Sydney’s and Kronachrome’s reactions to Leon’s comments to things that Sydney brought up that had me angry
That, and basically ignoring Leon’s feelings and considerations. Did we even find out how Leon felt after Sydney simply barged in and declared that they were now going to date? Or has it simply been Sydney and Kronachrome deciding how to carve him up like a slab of nerd-beef?
I would agree with you if he did not seem to be very much up for dating both. From his perspective this is not being carved up, it is not having to decide between the two (at least for now). His last comment makes this very clear imo. The girls (or mostly Krona) seem to have more of an issue with the whole thing. Her boundaries are the most likely to be crossed here, so they are the most important to discuss.
We haven’t seen, or read, his opinion on dating Sydney, at all
It’s just been assumed, that, because he is dating Kronachrome, he must also be okay with the idea of dating Sydney, based simply on their physical similarities (the same similarities that had Sydney suggest inviting Pixelicious in, which resulted in the brain trauma in panel one)
The only comments we have had from Leon so far, has been replies to things Sydney has said
Basically, it’s just been Sydney talking with Kronachrome about whether Kronachrome is okay sharing Leon, again, ignoring his feelings (for all we know, he may very well not be okay with dating two girls at once {shocking, isn’t it?} or even dating Sydney at all {even more shocking, right?})
He asked Krona if she can hack herself to be ok with him dating both. He also seemed quite excited at the thought of a threesome with them.
Nothing even hints at him not wanting both if he can. Anyone who is not ok with what is being discussed would have objected in at least SOME way. He on the other hand just tires to find out how to make it a reality.
It sounds like he’s defaulting to the standard masculine desire to please women. Which, in point of fact, IS a standard desire. Men are conditioned by society (and I mean ALL societies, at least the healthy and functional ones) to want to please women (because societies are collaborations, where participants work together for mutual gain). Here two women are expressing their desires, and he’s trying to make them both happy.
…And that’s before you account for the fact that they’re both superbeings with vastly greater power, and have made it clear that they believe that his consent is unnecessary and that his flesh exists for them to touch, grope, or batter as they please.
So you are just dismissing his approval as trying to please the girls? Is that not a bit belittling towards him? I mean, even if he outright said “Hell yeah, i want to date you both!”, you could just claim he is lying to please the girls.
And for the power part: None of the two have used their powers. Neither of them have super strength. And if they actually DID injure him using their powers (or even hint at it), i’m pretty sure they would have Maxima to deal with.
You only equate power with physical strength? Sydney has the Tentorb, that can lift 16 tons, just imagine what that equals in crushing strength. And Kronachrome has the ability to literally hack reality!!
I have to say that the power structure here is pretty clear. Leon is a geek, comfortable with himself, and presumably an alpha of geekdom. That’s all he has here. He’s also completely socially awkward.
The other two are both supers, and more assertive than him.
There is no question that under their power dynamics, they can oppress him, and he cannot oppress them. They are higher status and more powerful in all ways.
Without a doubt, they are punching down.
Max’s demonstration with her finger of doom vs her gun shows the (probably realistic) notion that superpowered threats are not seen as the same level as mundane threats.
Her finger of doom seemed to work pretty well with Vehemence after he was finally contained and given the choice between being put to sleep by Dabbler’s spell or being put to sleep permanently by Maxima’s plasma blast to the head.
Did you read the sentence after that? I adressed their powers. They A) did not use them and B) would get flattened by Maxima if they did. Regular disciplinary action, losing their jobs or possibly even jailtime are on the table if they attack a non-super using their powers. But they didn’t. Neither did they threaten to use them. They just used the strength of a regular 5′ girl punch. All he has to do to get away from that is to stand up and keep them his arms length away.
If they actually do use their powers to subdue him, i will be right there with you, calling them out.
But until then, this all just looks to me like people imagining the worst case scenario and acting like it already happened.
“Dismissing his approval?” Quite the opposite. I’m pointing out that he is (or at least, tries to be) a good man. Good men try to please. He’s trying to figure out what they want, so he can give it to them.
…And… they are proceeding to pummel him for the crime of asking questions. Instead of communicating openly, instead of treating him as an equal in this conversation, they’re treating him as if his requests for information are unreasonable and deserving of immediate retaliation.
Because, they have both already decided that he is fine with whatever decision they make, his feelings are irrelevant
Sydney; to paraphrase America Chavez: “Princess. I’ve seen the way you look at your teammates. You’re not that straight.”
…Am I correct in thinking that Sydney’s welcome home party is still on-hold upstairs while the three of them are working this out?
Not upstairs, literally on the other side of that glass wall (last page we could clearly see shapes of people through the glass)
Am I the only thinking Leon’s reaction, especially at the end, should definitely get a “Ok, it’s over, you’re alone now” as an immediate answer ? I mean, first he talks about threesomes (which is in itself ok), but then he basically talks about mindrape… that’s, like supervilain level not okay.
He’s asking Krona if she can hack HERSELF. That would require consent by its very nature. He’s asking if she can use her powers to change something about herself… not unlike what people already do with self-hypnosis, positive reinforcement, and other forms of self-help.
He’s asking Krona if she can hack HERSELF. That would require consent by its very nature. He’s asking if she can use her powers to change something about herself… not unlike what people already do with self-hypnosis, positive reinforcement, and other forms of self-help. (Btw, had a net hiccough while trying to post, so I apologize if this comment got repeated)
How exactly can a person rape themselves?
“Too long, didn’t read” version: QUIT KINKSHAMING
Background: I am a cis white male, and a Computer Guy, and can sympathize with Leon, kind of. I am also polyamorous (specifically, Relationship Anarchist). I have read the poly books, and listened to the poly podcasts (not all of them, but enough). I have been in two poly relationships and a member of a local poly community for a few years. Let me give you a little perspective here.
Yes, this page and the last fell flat for me. The first reason, I think, is that the depiction is maybe not cartoonish enough for its intended purpose- it’s drawn in “realistic” enough fashion that you can count the creases on Sydney’s forehead, and the treads on her boot. She has been drawn in very low-fi style previously when engaged in comical violence, and so the implication here is one of actual injury, nevermind the fact that Band-Aids ™ have magically appeared on the lumps that Leon has been collecting. The other reason is the ignorance on display, which maybe indicates territory that should not have been entered without a bit more research. Hit me up, Dave.
Point 1: Threesomes, and gender imbalance. It seems like everybody is assuming that “of course women will be on hair trigger about the suggestion of this, and justifiably so.” I won’t claim that being a male I can speak for them, BUT – it is scientifically known that gender interest is not like magnets; there are not just two possible orientations, contrary to popular belief. Most people fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum between the absolute ends of “I only like the opposite gender” and “I only like the same gender,” no matter how much we have all been brutalized by the 80’s AIDS scare into hiding any such tendencies, especially men. There are, in fact, a number of bisexual females that would totally be open to the idea of MFF threesomes, and frankly the women might enjoy it more than he does. I’ve not done it myself, but the generally accepted recipe for success is: pick people who are compatible, and let the ladies sort out how it’s going to work. Terms for further reading: pansexual, homoflexible, and heteroflexible.
Point 2: Jealousy and Violence. Everybody’s up in arms about the violence, but… this is a superpowered anti-terror organization he is a part of. Risk is part of the job, even in his position. What really sticks in my craw is the cultural assumption that because you have a romantic interest in someone, you somehow have an ownership stake in that person’s actions that makes violence somehow justified. Yes, their actions affect you – no, you don’t get to take their personal sovereignty away, unless you’ve negotiated informed consent, which can be withdrawn at any time (albeit not without consequences). This is a trope in Hollywood movies and Cosmo articles that really, really needs to die. You don’t own another person, no matter how vulnerable they make you feel; end of story.
Point 3: Masochism. It’s totally a thing, and from what I can tell, completely in line with Leon’s character. It could very well be that he is playing the cad for his own amusement and is getting more out of this scene than he would out of any theoretical (probably quite awkward and unfulfilling) inexperienced-three-person hookup. Clearly, he is not so traumatized that he keeps his mouth shut.
To wrap it up, I would say I’m in the ‘let’s see where it actually goes’ camp. I’m a Patron, and Dave hasn’t lost me. No need for a ret-con just yet.
P.S. There’s this thing called “just dating.” It’s pretty common. Monogamy isn’t assumed in those cases like it was 20 years ago. Your mileage may vary, based on proximity to the Bible Belt.
well Leon is kind of sending more or a Im a clueless Darwin Award candidate than a Im a S.A.M. And Am loving this Vibe. But meh.
Point 2 is either horribly written or crazy. No, being part of a pseudo-military unit and thus subject to danger doesn’t mean your opposite sex colleagues can attack you. That’s just nuts to say, and you probably meant to have some different segue to say so. I think. Or you’re nuts. Your call. Then you go on to talking about personal sovereignty, and I can’t tell if you are talking about the physical harm or the ostensible monogamy of Krona being able to decide if she’s okay with Halo having a cut of Leon. I suspect the latter, so it’s basically just your polyamory hobby horse talking.
Perhaps you are referencing the fact that, when Leon asks for clarification, he’s getting punched rather than treated with respect. Sydney is being very careful of Krona’s feelings, and both are discounting Leon’s. Yep, there’s a point there.
Point 3. Nope. No evidence of that before this scene, and in this scene, his pupils have been consistently constricted. He’s not having fun… he’s trying to follow what’s going on, and he has full fight-or-flight engaged.
RE: pt 2. I maybe could have written that better. I was referencing a wider tendency in Western culture to put limits on the behavior of romantic partners, without even discussing it. “You’re not allowed to see anyone but me romantically, probably even look at them as sexual beings, or have other important people in your life,” at the extreme end. This is potentially what’s being referenced with throwing the shoes, with an additional element of “I’m going to overreact to your encroachment on my sense of security in the relationship (or just in general) so badly that it will punish you for even having the idea the next time you are tempted.” All of this is wrapped up in monogamy culture, and is very damaging to all parties by bringing coercion into play. Especially given that there are no significant romantic entanglements yet in evidence. Also, I’m not saying that being in a super-powered organization makes it completely OK to abuse someone – but in the weird mix of personalities that are probably inevitable (we don’t know the distribution of mental health or personality types among supers, as far as I know – Arianna probably knows), I have rather less sympathy than I would for some ordinary dude having this chat with ordinary women who react that way. Treat the reality-breaking ladies with a bit more caution, Leon; at least shut up when you realize you’re in over your head.
RE: pt. 3 No evidence. That’s exactly right. You don’t know, I don’t know; the pain may be overriding the subtle physiological symptom of pupil dilation, it doesn’t say anything about what’s going through his head; there’s plenty of room for both interpretations here. It wouldn’t be the first time someone with a “shameful” interest took up a geeky career so he didn’t have to interact with people as much. We’ve all heard what happens when you assume. (I mean… it’s entertainment, you’re free to interpret how you please, but people seem to be taking this rather more seriously than that for this page)
…also, polyamory is a lifestyle, not a hobby. What a childish dismissal.
*Floppy wave* Hello fellow poly person!
I completely agree that the characters here are imperfect examples of nonmonogamy. But… as a relationship anarchist, you’re, like, Poly 403. They’re still in the first week of Poly 101. They’re still in the ooky hierarchy/ownership thing.
So, I guess I’m saying that this is a believable depiction of early nonmonogamy exploration. And it’s not as bad as some. (I mean, did you see the webswries Compersion? CRINGE)
Groot to meet you! And, I agree. That’s why I’m in the “let’s see where this goes” camp. I really hate the propagation of damaging tropes, but it makes total sense that that’s where they’re coming from, because I’ve been there myself.
I heard an interview with the Compersion writer/producer who talked about it not even being her lifestyle, which was pretty interesting to know that she was basically learning it all at the same time as the characters. But yeah, some super uncomfortable moments according to poly people who’ve watched it (I have not had time), because of that moment of “NOOOO DON’T DO THATTTT!!!” because they know what’s coming. Whew, if you like drama in your entertainment… Better than that short series “Married and Dating.” No, that’s not an endorsement. Please, please don’t think that’s what polyamory looks like, anyone. Gah.
I’m going to reply to myself to bring my thoughts full circle since it occurs to me that there’s a point I didn’t address completely. I make the characterization of “ignorance on display” as a criticism of the work itself because, while it makes sense for the characters to be coming from this ignorance individually, I really wish somebody in the room for this scene had a little more emotional intelligence. My vote would be Krona, because as a reality hacker she has probably already thought about hacking relationships. Not much would have had to change to leave the reader with “hmm, there’s something to think about here,” without having to push any particular lifestyle. That’s a missed opportunity that I feel is completely in line with the moral stance of the series.
I mean, they have perfect opportunities here with Dabbler and Cora. Both experienced in nonmonogamy.
But yeah, I totally believe that the director knew nothing about poly before making that series. A local poly group watched it together and just… screamed at the TV half the time.
@DaveB
Thank you for writing the comic. Whilst some of your art seems to be a matter of contention for the audience, I want you to know that it always brings a smile to my face to see the shenanigans that Halo and Co get up to.
Keep up the fantastic work and I look forward to the next page.
Remember when this was just a fun, lighthearted comic? And a comedy (Slapstick even) at that?
Dapper remembers.
It still is. Just sometimes jokes fall flat. :) It happens with even the funniest comics or people.
I’m more referring to the comments section being on fire because of a joke.
Might not have been funny, but can we just let a flat joke be just that? Rather than a massive statement of how it’s ok for women to beat men?
It’s a female-centric comic run by someone who obviously has at least gets *some* enjoyment out of anime, of which the ‘dope-slap’ is often dialed up to dope-attack-attack-with-nearest-object.
Simple logic means at some point, a woman is going to dope-strike a man.
There’s a difference between “dope-slap” and “comedic domestic abuse.” That’s why people are annoyed. Because we ARE good feminists.
It’s slapstick, it’s not domestic abuse played for laughs. Get over it, get over yourself. There’s no “double standard” to slapstick humour.
Your “simple logic” is not logic at all. It basically devolves to “existing cultural practice allows this”.
That cultural practice is sexist and the dual standard is corrosive.
If there are *NO* repercussions, I shall be disappointed.
I think that repercussions of this whole conversation could be great fun, both on the Dabbler side and on the Max side.
We’re back to the old Sydney, first day back and getting in trouble for being Sydney.
I think you might be taking the idea that there’s a very involved comment section a bit too seriously. I remember back during the ‘Maxima destroys a bridge and blames it on Sciona’ story arc that I was explaining, almost daily, how tort law works. And having people continually argue the same things with me, including people who I consider really nice people on this comic forum. Yet I don’t have a problem with any other commenters here, and I think this comic is AWESOME and DaveB is massively talented. Same for the year long parking lot Vehemence fight, which I still think took soooooooooooo long. But mainly because it’s a twice-a-week comic so it made it feel much, much longer.
People on comment forums argue about stuff. As long as they don’t start namecalling and getting into personal ad hominem attacks; as long as the creator doesn’t start banning people for making critiques; as long as people don’t start threatening each other, then there’s no problem with it. This board tends to be remarkably civil (at least most people tend to be, there’s always going to be one or two outliers), even when arguing points, and DaveB is very unique among most webcomic artists in that he actively listens to his readers and engages with them in a friendly manner (which is another reason he’s one of my favorite webcomic artists, aside from his art and storylines just being in general phenomenal).
There are people on here who are very involved in this comic, because this comic is more ‘egalitarian/second wave feminism’ than ‘third wave feminism.’ There are men and women on the team, and the men aren’t all bothered that the most powerful people on the team are mostly women. The men, in general, aren’t being abused or put down in order to bring up the women (ie, making all the men idiots in order to make the women look good by comparison). The women are able to bring themselves up all on their own through their own merits (ie, Maxima is awesome, without Hiro being a loser in comparison).
Which is probably a reason that this particular strip is grating to some people – it’s making Leon look like a lesser person in order to prop up the women, even though nothing he’s said was all that bad, and it was entirely started by Sydney. Archone put it well – there’s a difference between a dope-slap and comedic domestic abuse, which is what was annoying a lot of people who made critiques.
“I’m not into girls!”
At least we have that part of Sydney’s sexuality made clear.
And as regards male-on-male, female-on-female, male-on-female, female-on-male, human-on-alien, alien-on-human and all other forms of violence in the comic… I’m OK with any of it. My suspension of disbelief is good enough to accept it. In a serious dramatic story based in a somewhat real world setting I would likely feel differently, but this story does not represent reality in any way, shape or form. It is foolish to get so worked up over some bit of fantasy fiction. Write as the muse strikes you, Dave, and keep up the good work.
The characters are young and dumb and leaning into I guess? Weeby and kind of NEET tropes with the head bumps and disconnect from normal social behavior? I mean the tropes alone is more the lazy writing IMO. But that’s kinda nit picky? They’re never set up as examples of morality. Sydney is repeatedly demonstrated as being disconnected from understanding social and moral norms like that. Sydney isn’t particularly woke. Sydney as a character is in the process of constantly growing and maturing. Having expectations that she’s decent constantly and never making mistakes no less an imaginary cartoon rendition? Especially with attempts for comedic effort?
But expecting the world to keep stuff like this from you and your triggered offended? That’s not a realistic expectation for reality to bubble wrap and insulate you. It’s bogus but I agree normative culturally it’s far more acceptable socially for a guy to handle that *TROPEY* not at all actual physical abuse (cartoon hyperbole =/= actual violence they’re imaginary characters). What’s normative acceptable and what’s moral =/= right btw. This isn’t me condoning what idiot cartoon characters are doing.
Being offended doesn’t entitle you to anything. I do agree and enjoy the debate though. I think the debate of this topic is actually a good thing. It helps people challenge and redefine their understanding of topics and concepts like this. Very socratic method of learning. Not all conflict is a bad thing. Although I do agree that Dave trying to justify and dance around this has probably done more damage than just moving past it. I think he may or may not be kind of gun shy and trying to demonstrate sensitivity after the last dabbler incident. Which all I can say is expecting moral behavior from a sex demon???
??????
Fun fact: intimate partner violence is just as likely to be perpetrated by men as women, but more serious cases are much more frequently man on woman.
Less fun but equally accurate fact: while your initial premise is correct, when you add cases of weapons being used, the statistics reverse and it winds up being women perpetrating the violence more frequently than men, even though they tend to not get as severe a charge, or the police simply do not arrest the woman (or arrest the man and the woman, or even just arrest the man even when he is the one to call the police). Also taking into account that men simply tend to be significantly stronger and more durable than women in cases of unarmed violence regardless of who initiates the fight.
It’s comedy violence you dumb fuck. Slapstick is old as hell, get the hell over it.
Mint, do you realize how bad you’re making yourself look with the over-the-top hostility?
ok why are you two still interested in him after all that he has said. Like he has made deal breaker after deal breaker one liners that invoke feelings of murder. seriously the dude is not worth it.
Neither are they. Not at this point, and probably not at all.
Poor Leon is probably going to just go along with it, because as he says, he hasn’t dated enough to have a type. If DB has Leon take a step back and assert himself, get apologies from the girls, that would help the issues he’s made here.
Are you missing the fact those one-liners were set up by Sydney? He didn’t just pull them out of thin air, Sydney straight up delivered them to him!
Remember when two vampires actually beat up a guy in this comic? Then again, that was several years ago. Seems like it only happened a small while ago, though.
Yep, I remember… but don’t remember any commentary about it at the time.
That was a guy who was clearly in a consensual relationship, and was implied to have masochistic tendencies. And… even then, it was a bit “iffy.” Halo actually called the vampires out on it.
They didn’t ‘beat up a guy’, they fed on him, in a mutually agreeable arrangement: he is a Super with the ability to replace any liquid (including his own blood), and they are vampires who literally require blood to survive
Would you rather they go out and attack a different stranger every time? o_O
They literally ganged up on him and beat him up moments after they fed on him because he made a joke about vampire blood thirst.
The difference there is that he seemed to be actively into it. Leon doesnt look like he is into having things thrown at his head for asking questions which were responses to leading questions made by Sydney. He was even trying, albeit lamely (since he doesnt seem to be used to multipke women being interested in him), to defend what he was asking and saying since he wasnt saying anything awful or insulting, given who brought it up.
That’s fair.
And just so we’re clear…
Words cannot express how much I love this comic. I’ve read the whole thing through multiple times, and recommend it to anyone who I think might be even remotely interested. I introduced my wife to this comic, and eagerly ask her if she’s seen the latest one each time there’s an update.
Dave, please, you keep doing what you’re doing, and I’ll keep reading (and re-reading)!
Gonna be real here tho, I didn’t really think about what kind of people read this comic until now, and frankly, it feels like they only got upset cause a dude wanted to say some stuff and they didn’t let him.
So explain why I agree with the people who had a problem with this? What type of person am I? :)
Damn. Surprised Sydney went there. She really is broadening horizons.
Just so I can also give a positive post, the artwork for Sydney and Krona is phenomenal today.
Lots of wrongs. Dave’s comment kinda made it worst (giving multiple concussions is not as bad as stabbing with a knife so it is ok to beat your love interrest for asking questions?).
They are characters for entertainment. Not protagonists in a psa. They are not supposed to be perfect role models or educators. Still I’m really ill at ease with today’s comic. Sydney and Krona got lower in my esteem and I hope their actions will be addressed in future pages. Also you don’t need to be into a gender to accept someone’s implication in a scene.
On a positive note, yay! Poly representativity! I’m a man livong with my girlfriend. She has a girlfriend living with her boyfriend.
Since when did slapstick become fucking controversial? Violence for comedy’s sake isn’t fucking abuse, Jesus fucking christ
And to get ahead of anyone else: Superior Spider-Man when Otto full force clocks Blacj Cat cuz he doesn’t understand her and Peters usual bit is the funniest fucking thing in comics
Wow, that was not at all the reaction I had to that Super Spider-Man scene. It actually made me nauseous, and felt to me like Otto had crossed a moral event horizon, and put the lie to any possibility that he could be a ‘superior’ man, much less Spider-Man. I get that he didn’t know that Spider-Man and Black Cat had been lovers, but a supposedly ‘superior’ intellect could have figured out any number of ways to handle that situation that didn’t involve sucker-punching her.
I really do not think that Dan Slott meant that page to be in any way humorous, either. It may have been speaking to Otto’s character, or to Otto’s assumptions about Peter’s character, but either way, it felt like it was about Otto’s failure to live up to his claim of superiority.
(As an aside, not that it justifies or de-nauseates the scene, Otto doesn’t “full-force” punch Felicia. Spider-Man has beaten a Herald of Galactus unconscious. If Otto had hit her “full-force,” he’d have killed her.)
Calm down, the immediate sequence has comedic pacing. I said full force for effect, there’s zero consistency with what Spider-Man’s maximum strength is pal.
Seriously?
People are getting upset over bog-standard comedy tropes now?
DaveB, this page was a good laugh, and you got nothing to apologize for. If some folks can’t separate serious real world problems from the cartoonist antics of a fictional character, that’s their problem.
I already commented on the “intimate partner violence” aspect of this unfortunate debate, but let’s get into the other half of people’s issue: Leon’s opinion supposedly being shut down.
Uh. No. See, cuz if he was just sitting there passively not saying a word I might buy that he was being suppressed, but since he is clearly blurting shit out as it pops into his head, often to his own detriment, he is clearly not being silenced. If he wasn’t interested in Sydney or polyamory or anything else being discussed, he would probably have said so by now.
As a bisexual gal who has been asked, ad nauseum, if I’d be down for a threesome, I can tell you that for a lot of girls it’s a touchy subject. So, Sydney’s reaction here is maybe a bit oversensitive, but not uncommon. Last I checked, getting defensive about someone asking you something you’re uncomfortable with wasn’t a crime. Do all of you have perfect communication skills? Have you never said something that rubbed someone the wrong way even though you didn’t mean it that way? That doesn’t make the person who got mad at you abusive, it’s just a miscommunication.
The only thing anyone did “wrong” in this conversation is react without taking the time to think about it, on both sides. And since we are talking about two characters who are well established as impulsive (Krona and Sydney), and one who we don’t know as well but is definitely leaning that way (Leon), it is not out of character for anyone to be behaving this way.
Also, I will once again reiterate that the asshats turning this into a domestic abuse issue are making REAL domestic abuse seem like way less of a big deal than it is by raising this much hell over something so minor. Stop getting your hackles up over trivial shit, it helps exactly no one. It’s like when people call a lewd comment a sexual assault. It’s not. It’s sexual harassment, and those two things have different terms for a REASON. Because one is more severe, OBVIOUSLY. And people who paint broad stroke brushes over any sort of situation involving any amount of violence or sexuality do nothing but hinder the causes they are supposedly meant to be supporting. Context matters.
At least one person commenting here on this page has stated that they are survivors of sexual assault/abuse. You really shouldn’t dismiss the opinions of the people complaining about this page like that… you also shouldn’t act as if you have the right to declare moral edicts as if you are the ultimate authority on the subject.
Also, if Leon’s statements result in something to his detriment, that IS being silenced. “He can say whatever he wants… and if we don’t like what we hear, we’ll smack him around some.” That’s not only physical abuse, that’s also psychological abuse: “Feel free to speak and share your opinions… just know that if I don’t like what I hear, I will hit you and tell you it’s your own fault.”
That person has every right to feel triggered, by anything that brings up negative feelings about their past abuse. That does not, however, automatically make them correct in asserting THEIR feelings onto others. And they are not the only person here with trauma related to abuse, I had to endure abuse of several varieties at the hands of my mother, and watch her exact even worse abuses onto my father. I’m not talking out of my ass, I know exactly what someone being silenced looks like and what female on male domestic violence looks like.
Not that my experiences should have to be disclosed for my opinion to be valid, but I’m comfortable talking about it.
Also, thanks for ignoring literally everything else that I said about how not every human interaction is perfect and miscommunications happen. And you replied to my other comment, so I know you saw everything else I said about why the “violence” demonstrated in this comic is being blown out of proportion.
The reality is that a lot of things can remind you of trauma, even if those things are ultimately benign in nature. I get stressed and anxious when I hear certain songs, or see certain movies that I associate with my own abuse, but that does not mean that the creators of those media were wrong for making them. The same applies here. It sucks that people were reminded of their bad experiences, and I genuinely hope that things get better for them and that this didn’t drag them down too hard, but being a victim does not automatically make you correct. In fact, that is the same card my mother used to play, because she had a physical disability, and therefore she couldn’t be in the wrong because she was the perpetual victim, right?
Also, when I say Leon’s statements are to his detriment, I mean he’s making himself sound like an idiot. Which is, once again, not at all uncommon. The girls expressing their distaste for his statements, in ways that are clearly not actually harming him, is exactly the sort of consequence that can be expected from any person communicating with another person. You ARE free to say whatever you want, doesn’t mean that the people who hear you have to like it or hold back THEIR opinion. If they are expressing that opinion without causing any harm, then no one has done anything wrong, that’s just a normal conversation.
Maybe the girls are overreacting… so what? That happens. That can be cleared up with more talking, or it can devolve into a conflict, but that’s still totally normal human interaction. Should every page of the comic have huge blocks of text where the characters all try to clarify every statement they make in order to avoid any sort of miscommunication ever for the sake of a conflict-free plot that’s easily digestible? Obviously, no, and not just because that would be super boring. It would take away any real character, leaving nothing but cardboard cutouts of people like you might see in a cartoon aimed at small kids, where the audience is treated like they are too dumb to understand right from wrong on their own and have to have it spoon fed to them.
Is it okay to hurt someone just because? No. Is domestic violence something that should be minimized? NO. But these sorts of blatantly obvious disclaimers shouldn’t have to be stamped onto everything that has even the slightest resemblance to abuse, and insisting that it does just makes it seem like you think the majority of people are too stupid to come to those conclusions themselves.
Sometimes, you gotta put your big girl pants on and just move on when something upsets you because the mature thing to do is acknowledge that your feelings do not necessarily reflect the reality of the situation. I do it all the time when something triggers me, because sometimes you can’t always avoid those feelings. And it sucks, but it isn’t anyone’s fault except for the original abusers that instilled those vulnerabilities in the first place.
I’ve no doubt that you’ve suffered from abuse. So have I. So have a lot of people. But that doesn’t give you, or anyone else, the right to dismiss other people’s concerns like that. This isn’t them screaming and raising a fuss and demanding special privileges because of what they went through. This is them stating, on a public forum, “this is very uncomfortably reminiscent of what we personally went through.” You don’t have the right to call them “asshats” over it.
If people had left it at that sure, but then people decided that berating and shaming the creator was necessary too and that’s not cool. And, funny, how my very legitimate concerns about how making a big deal out of something like this trivializes the real issues people face in real life are fine to dismiss, but me thinking that people are being unfair and unjustly slinging around accusations of condoning or ignoring these issues, that’s just too much. If it were just about saying that you feel a thing, that would be one thing, but it’s not.
It’s the hypocrisy of your statements that bothers me. I have a right to my opinion, supposedly, but also my opinion is wrong and condones abuse. I have no right to “declare moral edicts” as of I am an authority, except that is exactly what you are trying to do to me and to Dave, pushing a moral narrative that is not reflective of everyone’s experience.
So, yeah, if people are slinging around insults and being hypocritical, I feel pretty alright calling them asshats. And yeah, I do have that right. You don’t have to like it. You can think I am a terrible person for it. That’s YOUR right. But you don’t get to silence me just because you don’t like what I have to say. Me being mildly insulting is not actually doing you any harm. And maybe you would feel less defensive about it if you didn’t find some truth to what I am saying.
Anyway, I’m getting very sick of you picking out parts of my comments and completely ignoring the rest of them, (see below, I specifically said “not out of the norm and NOT ABUSE”, but once again you have utterly ignored my point. Humans having disagreements and conflicts does not automatically equal abuse) and I am too old, tired, and in pain to put more energy into this. Respond if you want. Continue to tell me how awful I am, whatever. I’m not replying anymore.
PS:
For what it is worth I genuinely hope that you’re alright, that whatever issues this brought up for you and others in the comments are able to be worked through without too much pain. I haven’t wished pain on anyone here, nor do I think that their experiences should be minimized. My objection is to the lashing out being done against people who haven’t actually done anything wrong. And I’m not even including myself here, I could have worded things without being insulting and that’s on me. But that still doesn’t give you or anyone else the right to tell me how I feel about something, or should feel about something.
Wow… that was… I’m genuinely amused. I mean, this is hilarious to me.
You accuse of slinging insults. I’d ask you to provide an example of where anyone has done so with you, but… oh right, you’re not going to respond. You took your bat and ball and went home. Presumably.
You talk of hypocrisy – you are the one who “expressed disappointment” in others for speaking of their RL experiences with abuse, demand the right to call people names if you disagree with them, and accuse others of being mean if they ask you to abide by civilized rules for debate and discourse.
PS:
For what it’s worth your “genuine hope” comes across as extremely patronizing and ridiculous. It’s an attempt to present yourself as the good person after you… dismissed the accounts of abuse survivors, hurled insults at people who disagreed with you, and then attempted to hide behind the defense of “miscommunication.”
Everything Leon has been attacked over, has been something that Sydney brought up first!!
He is not ‘clearly blurting shit out as it pops into his head’, Sydney is putting it in there and he is asking for clarification
And it is by not taking this seriously that makes the real issue of domestic abuse seem like way less of a big deal
Several people how pointed how much female-on-male Domestic Violence is already viewed as a joke, where often the male victim is the one who ends up arrested (even with evidence showing they were the victim), or simply made to feel less as both a man and a person resulting in them not being able to get the same sort of help a female victim would get
Once again, see above about how sometimes communication isn’t perfect. I am not claiming that Sydney and Krona’s reactions are perfectly justified, just that they are not out of the norm and not abuse.
And, really? Not taking THIS, a couple of pages of a webcomic where a dude gets mildly scolded for something he says and has a boot thrown at him that leaves no sign of any actual injury, seriously is what is minimizing the real issue of male victimization in domestic abuse situations?
There is a real issue with men’s abuse not being taken seriously, I am well aware, my father is one of those victims. I have never, nor would I ever, deny that. But equating that to this is laughable. It’s like comparing school detention to prison. Are there similarities? Maybe. But one is so much more an issue than the other that the comparison is not productive in any way.
Yeah, the “not out of the norm” part is why people are upset about this. Just because something is normalized doesn’t make it right. Thirty years ago people were still making jokes about pedophilia in the Catholic church; everyone knew it was going on, but they just joked about it instead of treating it as a serious issue. Ten years ago the “casting couch” was the stuff of jokes; everyone knew it was going on, but nobody did anything other than Seth McFarlane making a joke or two about Harvey Weinstein.
Also, it’s not that he’s being “mildly scolded.” It’s that – as has been stated repeatedly by all the people you’re calling “laughable,” he’s being treated as if he has zero input regarding what’s going to happen to him in his future. Krona and Sydney are discussing romantic relationships, and he’s not allowed to even ask questions, let alone voice his opinion. That’s where the abuse always STARTS, with the dismissal of the feelings of the victim. Whether it’s physical, mental, or otherwise, it always starts with a dismissal of their feelings.
Dan. Don’t let the vocal minority make you think the “BAKA!” trope is any less funny. This is good stuff.
His name is Dave.
I feel like we see this in standard anime all the time, its a trope, It doesn’t seem at all like hes actually hurt. The bumps are more like symbolism for “well you done fucked up son” rather than ac actual injury. I’ve seen female on male violence personally more often than male on female in my life, possibly because I have more men for friends than women, and it is a serious issue simply BECAUSE no one takes it seriously, including the police who should damn well know better, but its still the case that they show up, guy has multiple bruises on his body and girl has one bruise, on her arm, from where guy grabbed it to stop her from hitting him, and hes the one who ends up arrested.
Actually, as someone who has been polyamourous most of my adult life, jumping into that conversation 5 minutes after finding out 2 of her friends are dating isn’t really good form, and becoming polyandrous is a long journey of self reflection and an understanding of what triggers your own jealousy, and learning to take responsibility. It also requires a level of straightforward and frank communication between all 3 people that I can’t see Sydney being capable of. Let’s be honest, its been 2 days for her, she has NOT had remotely enough time to decide if she’s ready for something like that. At all. Even a little, never mind Krona and Leon
That’s a good point, actually. Sydney literally walked in on Krona and Leon making out, and essentially invited herself into their relationship.
So, does Krona have multiple duplicate shirts or does she wear the same shirt every day?
As someone pointed out on a previous comment page: there is such a thing as washing machines and Laundromats
Plus, she may very well have a wardrobe of the same shirt because she likes it and maybe it’s her ‘symbol’, like Hal Jordon’s lantern, or Clark Kent’s ‘S’
I didn’t say she didn’t wash it.
“multiple duplicate shirts”
Probably exploits a dupe bug in reality code to make multiple shirts.
I think the strong reactions of this page as opposed to other pages where people have gotten clobbered slapstick style might come from 3 main factors:
First is the trap-like dialogue that started on the prior page where basically Halo teases Leon about having a type, suggesting that they could get Pixie in the room and then, when he asks if she was kidding about that part, he gets metaphorically clobbered by them. Then she talks about if they are monogamous… And he asks if she’s talking about a threesome… And gets clobbered for a fairly reasonable inquiry given the context. It kind of gives a feeling of them setting up the bait and then smacking him for going for it. One can argue that he should really have learned his lesson by the third time but either they should cut him some slack or reconsider if they really want to date him after all.
Which brings us to the second factor: Do these girls actually like him? The scene shows us that apparently Leon and Krona have gotten close over the past month, but we have not gotten to see any of that (quite understandably as it would rather spoil the suprise), but as a result the only view we have had of what these two are like as a couple is from this one scene and… yeah its not making a good first impression to the audience, clearly. Leon is clearly not great at managing his brain to mouth filter and given how vigorously Krona will respond to such mistakes, either he would learn to adapt or at least keep his mouth shut Or she’d get somewhat used to it by now.. Unless their relationship has been all about doing things besides talking and getting to know each other for a whole month.
Factor the third: Sydney’s talking about wanting to date the guy, but neither she nor Krona (or Leon himself in a sense) are showing or telling us any compelling reasoning for why they want to date him or he would want to date them, Sure the tsundere trope is a thing, the problem is they are being all tsun and no dere in this scene and what little dere we have had in prior pages, specifically with halo writing him down in reverse-notebook form, to really sell the idea that they actually like each other.
This isnt hard to correct for, just put in a following page Krona or Halo (or both) taking some pitty on the dumb, dumb genius this guy supposedly is and spell some shit out for the man who clearly does not know how to communicate with them in a way that does not make them want to dispense boots to the head, nothing too overly elaborate needed, just some basic nod to show that they do care about each other and can maybe add more context to the relationship over time as this seems meant to be a running sideplot of the story going forwards.
No need to build rome in a day, but me thinks this particular clump of bricks needs a little cement is all.
Wow! You started off with him being a victim for falling into bait-laden traps, then end with him at fault
It really should be him questioning whether he wants to date either of them, or tell them to get the fuck out of his office and he go talk to Pixelicious
Hello Guesticus,
I see you have found my poist but did not quite seem to get what I meant in places. Yes, as factor one suggests, the girls kept setting him up to say something that triggers their tsunof the tsun-dere they are channeling in this scene. I trust you are familiar with the saying “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice? Shame on me”? Because its quite appropriate here as I do feel that time one happened cause halo raised the topic and time two Also happened cause Halo raised the topic… By time three Leon really should have figured out already that “this stove is hot, dont touch it” plus suggesting someone use their powers to litterally alter their own mind is probably not the safest suggestion to make when the audience hasnt already demonstrated their willingness to demonstrate their displeasure with boots to your head ^^;
In short to the first part: first time? “I dont think he deserved that…” Second time “Not quite sure he deserved that either but he could have read the mood I guess” Third time: “Oh come on man, stop setting off the bootlaunchers!”
As for your second point I echo it wholeheartedly. Halo and Krona are both cute as candy buttons… That doesnt mean you want to have them get flicked at your head every time you open your mouth and try to participate in the conversational topic they brought up. And it certainly should lead one to question if this is actually people you want to have a serious relationship with. That said, the same consideration should probably be taken by the two girls, if they cant have a conversation about potentially having an open relationship with the guy without what he says making them want to toss weaponized footwear at him (remember halo’s boots are combat grade, dunno about Kronas but I imagine they could be hacked to have a +5 bootage boonus)… then maybe dating this guy, much less sharing him isnt something they or he is ready to do.
Finally I feel like re-stating that the reactions we are all having to this scene are vastly amplified because of its isolated nature, we’re being given one brief snapshot of what Krona and Leon are like when they are together (with halo) with no real insight into what they are normally like… if Leon being dumb like this is commonplace and/or if Krona’s apparent anger with the man (and expressing it physically, even if its meant to be tongue in cheek which is also harder to sell cause we havent seen them do this regularly as a running gag yet)… This leaves us no choice, sort of, but to take the scene presented to be “how it usually is for them” as opposed to an unusual situation.. which doesnt paint a pretty picture of what their relationship is normally like, thus leading us to question more why they are in said relationship to begin with.
Again, 99.99% + or- 1% of the issues with this scene can be easily resolved by showing us More of these two/three interacting so we can see how and why these people are actually gonna work out as a couple (or coupled pairs).
I guess that makes Krona and Halo the hydrogen to Leon’s oxygen, and letting the girls hang out on their own results in hydrogen gas, an explosive situation ensues… Of course Leon-oxygen all on his ownsome is a highly reactive substance so mixing the three up in close quarters, add some heat and boom… explosions ensue… analogy seems to hold up all in all cause having them all stuck together sure turned on the waterworks for some? *badumptish*
+1 on the reactions being exaggerated here. Actually, the reactions were sparked by the prior page, but it’s really the delay before the *next* page that is stoking the fire. Once the narrative caps the joke and moves on, it will die down rapidly… as long as the gag is not repeated without significant variation.
DaveB, like a few have said, your comic is wonderful from beginning to end. I love it and laugh from it from beginning to end. It is always a pleasure to discover a new page, and they never fail to raise a smile. Ditto this one.
There are always ways and means to twist an argument and overlay a rancorous interpretation of anything. It’s like rule #34 for the grumpy. People can choose to focus on their grudges or on the comedic fun. It’s their choice and it is a reflection on them, not on you.
That said, even though I did not like the haughty and self-righteous tone of some posts, I learned a thing or two reading the comments, so thank you for DaveB for creating the context to bring them up, and thank you to the contributors. Keeping an open mind is the best way to enjoy this comic and its comments.
Never posted before, but I felt I had to on this occasion.
This feels like every anime I’ve ever watched in the last 20 years! I’m getting flash backs of most of Rumiko Takashi’s works, EVA, and Love Hina!
So, massive reactions on the assault on Leon.
I want to know why Sydney thinks it’s ok to ask a pair in a very young relationship to share. Even Sydney could’ve/should’ve said “my loss, have a good one” and walked away. Not to mention that she’s asking Krona without Leon’s input.
Your edit took this straight into revolting territory, and you should have just stayed silent. If you feel something you admit would be wrong if the sexes were reversed is fine because it is not as bad for one of the sexes, that is disgusting.
The BAKA trope is rather tired to me, Rumiko Takahashi beat it into the ground, but then you had to open your keyboard and spill misandrist drivel everywhere.
Sure are a bunch of MRAs in these comments. Please go back to your redpill forums.
Regardless of whether the comic is in poor taste – I don’t care enough to give it serious thought – all the people crying REVERSE SEXISM don’t seem to understand that a core component of sexism is systemic power and abuse of power dynamics. In a world where men rape, assault and murder women on a terrifyingly regular basis, are painted by the media as tragic victims, family men who had a moment of weakness or innocent men full of promise and potential who just need to get back on the straight and narrow, who then receive on average 1/5th the sentencing as women who kill in self-defence, capital fucking N capital fucking O, it is not the same thing.
Dave, I think your edit was in good taste. Give it some thought. Ignore the redpills up here and come to your conclusions without factoring in simpletons who are so privileged they don’t actually understand what makes misogyny so insidious. It may very well be that this coming was in poor taste but they’re sure as shit not the people to consult.
And on a more light-hearted note, hey, thanks for putting in some non-monog representation.
(ps give us a trans character you coward)
comic*
Also I forgot to address: all the dudes who think a serious discussion about non-monogamy is a perfect time to bring out the old ‘let’s have a threesome’ joke/suggestion option select and Leon wasn’t being rude af by jumping straight to that, doesn’t your Tinder couple profile need maintaining? Sydney clearly wants to pursue an actual relationship with him and I can tell you from experience the last goddamn thing you want to hear when you’re asking about a genuine relationship that happens to be non-monogamous is anything that hints they just want to do the whole ‘introduce you into the bedroom with a totally unbalanced power dynamic then use you as a human sex toy only to discard you afterwards’ shit that just about all straight dudes in “open relationships” tend to do.
And before the ‘misandrist’ comments: 1 again you are demonstrating a total lack of understanding of what actually makes misogyny horrible, and 2: don’t say it like I’m gonna be insulted.
NICE! Way to go! You just told people who expressed having been victims of domestic violence and sexual assault as “MRAs” and told them to shut up and go elsewhere.
Also, kudos to you for that particular sentiment. MRAs. Men’s Rights Advocates. You literally just expressed the statement that people like Bowman and Guesticular Torsion deserve zero rights and should shut up. I have rarely seen someone combine that level of dismissive bigotry with that level of self-righteousness. I am very hopeful that Dave will look at what you have said here and realize what sort of attitudes have been influencing him.
Male victim of sexual abuse here.
I had a single mother, and was abused by an older girl who also had a single mother.
This left me somewhat uncomfortable about sex and sexuality as an adult.
I went to a very liberal school, that had only a few years prior to my attendance been an all-girls school. At the time of my attendance, 2/3 of the student body and 3/4 of the administration were female (including the entire counselling department).
The girls at the school thought it was HILARIOUS how uncomfortable I was with sex and sexuality. Several took to sexually harassing or assaulting me for laughs at my reaction. One said, publically, at a party, that they did it cause it was funny, and they knew no one would or could stop them without getting in trouble.
Another took to trying to “fix” my defect by drugging me (viagra and roofies) and having sex with me after I’d rejected her advances.
When I tried to tell one of the campus counselors, she said, simply “That doesn’t happen to guys” and told me to get out.
When the majority of the authority figures in my life were female – and all my abusers were female…
Now, while the majority of CEOs and Politicians may be male… I don’t recall any of them having any involvement in what happened to me… meanwhile, all the perpetrators of my abuse, and the vast majority of the authority figures around it were female… but that would mean that systemic power is subjective, and therefore, so is your unnecessarily exclusionary gatekeeping on the term “sexism.”
So. At what point do my LIVED EXPERIENCES become invalid to you? Just wondering.
Your claims about disparity between the experiences of abuse suffered by men (either at hands of their peers or the justice system) are faulty, btw. The gender sentencing gap favors women overall… sexual assault is pretty close to equal… and while severe physical abuse tends to be 60% female victim, it’s pretty well 50/50 otherwise, yet support for men like me just… doesn’t exist, forcing me to deal with my trauma on my own for 10 years before I was willing to talk to anyone about it.
(FYI, I’m doing ok. I run an informal support group for others like me, because in my experience, peer support is the only kind we can reliably get.)
I will note that I agree with you re: the edit. I don’t expect anyone to have foreseen this amount of backlash.
That said – I think it’s perfectly valid it become a talking point about partner abuse in general. Most people think of partner abuse, and they only see one thing: a man hitting a woman. Truth is, that’s only one form of abuse… and ignoring the others is harmful to men, women, children, cis, trans, het, LGBT, everyone.
So… why don’t we?
Well said.
You cannot pretend to be a paladin protecting victims of gender violence, and then get nasty to male victims of the same crime.
Once these trolls have to deal with actual victims that they can’t label, they usually crawl away rather than confront their own ugliness.
Thus, the only thing you hear is the sound of slinking away.
I can label you just fine. You’re either an actual advocate against DV of all kinds by being against toxic masculinity or, if you are a male DV victim who thinks feminism is evil, you’re an enemy to yourself.
So, no, I’m not slinking away, I just have better things to do with my time than argue with people who are too caught up with who wins an internet argument to actually analyze the situation of the world and work out why DV happens.
First, no one cried “reverse sexism”. We pointed out sexism. Your “urban studies” definition that purports to say that the power of society has to be the source of sexism/racism — and because certain men/whites are on top, that society can’t be sexist against men — just betrays your massive ignorance of the reality of society.
There is no such thing as “reverse sexism”. Bigotry on account of sex or gender is “sexism”, period. Bigoted tropes fueled by sexism are sexism.
Your comments are sexist, and fueled by your own rampant ignorance based upon stereotypes. Look at the actual statistics.
“In a world where men rape, assault and murder women on a terrifyingly regular basis,”… etc
Is there really something less terrible about 14% (male victims of domestic violence), as opposed to 22% (female victims)? If so, then what you’re saying is that that it’s only the 8% extra that are terrible, and the first 14% of women victims, matching the male numbers, are just fine?
it’s nonsense. You just bought into anti-male stereotypes that are pushed on you by the society that you belong to, and you refuse to look at the real science to assuage your ignorance.
It’s actually about one in four women compared to one in nine men.
I’m not talking about domestic assault against males. What is depicted in this comic is not domestic assault. If you want to call it normalizing violence, that’s understandable, and that’s why I also said that there’s a very good chance this comic is in poor taste and Dave should reconsider it.
THE PROBLEM HERE is whataboutism, and MRAs hijacking the discussion about male domestic violence. The problem is that most people who bring up male DV stats are not actually advocates against male domestic violence; the kind of foul trolls that you find in MRA groups don’t care about that, in fact they’re more likely than just about anyone to tell a male victim of DV that they’re just cowards or pansies or whatever. They bring up stats of male DV in DEFENSE against stats against female DV, as if it invalidates it. They then make up bogus stats claiming that men are assaulted at the same rate if not more.
And, yes, VERY MANY people in these comments brought up “reverse sexism.” Many of them have used this to label Dave an ‘sjw’ or ‘typical feminist’ which is the EXACT kind of horse-shit I’m talking about, where crap like this isn’t used to have a discussion about DV but just silence people who are advocating against it. Almost ALL of the men I’ve met who genuinely advocate against and what to end male DV are, themselves, feminists, because they understand that the primary cause of male DV (just like that against women) is toxic masculinity and the way it is upheld by gay/bisexual men and even some non-feminist (and of course the actual shit feminist) women that think a man should be ‘tough enough to handle it’ or whatever.
tl;dr: most of the people in these comments, and most men who bring up male DV in general, are doing it as a reaction to feminism in an effort to silence criticisms of toxic masculinity. If you are against male DV – which despite my half-serious claiming of misandry, I am also against – then you wouldn’t tolerate the kind of people saying that this is SJW propaganda or whatever.
THE PROBLEM HERE is “virtue signaling,” and the fact that you’re attempting to do so in a forum full of actual feminists and egalitarians. Snarling about MRAs being “foul trolls” who want to hijack discussions doesn’t cut it here, with people who understand that MRA is an acronym for “Men’s Rights Advocate” and agree that men, just like women, deserve rights. Just like throwing in comments about murdering kittens doesn’t cut it here.
The problem here isn’t as some people are saying that folks are overly sensitive about cartoon violence, it’s about the context surrounding that violence.
Leon is just trying to participate in the conversation about who he is and is not dating, sure he’s an awkward guy so he says some dumb things but he doesn’t deserve to get beaten for it.
There are plenty of times this kind of slapstick is genuinely funny, take Math for example you can basically grantee he will say something worth getting a boot to the head for if he is talking to a woman, but that vindicates the idea that he is a creep to women sometimes and therefor should be punished for it, meanwhile Leon just responds to the ideas presented by Sydney and gets attacked for it, his only crime is being an inexperienced geek. That’s why people are upset. It’s not just “man hit by women *pause for laughter*” it’s “man get’s undeservedly hit by women for trying to talk *pause for laughter*”
Cartoon trope-ee hyperbole violence. He very clearly doesn’t have an actual serious injury or been abused, they’ve handled stuff like that before. Serious injuries or actual malicious abuse. Otherwise it’s awkward lame tsundere trope violence while he trope-ee awkward stumbles his way through relationship questions around polyamorous relationships.
You seriously think that the equivalent of “Why don’t you just use mind control to make my fucking the two of you ok for you?” is a “fair question?” Here’s a pair of boots to your head!
That’s like me saying “Hey, DaveB, why don’t I come over to your place and fuck your girlfriend/wife and kill your kittens and you can just take a bunch of drugs that will make you not care?” Do you see how that works? Ok, now that we’ve established the ground rules with a bit of perspective does this not seem as reasonable of a suggestion to you? I hope so. Carry on.
That is an incredibly ridiculous false comparison. Nobody said anything about killing kittens, or any other such actions. The question was “can you use that power that you possess and which – by definition – you must consent to use in order to use, to modify your own preferences the way you modify other things?”
Have we now established that your perspective is remarkably skewed? I hope so. Have we also established that the condescending and dismissive tone, as if spoken from a parent to a mildly retarded child, is both offensive and also less persuasive than a more courteous and respectful mode of address? I hope so. Carry on.
ABSOLUTELY BARBARIC
But seriously. Dude’s crying because he’s not bubble wrapped. He’s looking at reality with a detached sense of scale and reason. He clearly does believe this equates to what he stated. There is no reasoning with that level of crazy. He’s either actually thirsty for attention. In which case don’t feed the trolls. Or he legit thinks cartoony trope hyperbole violence equals actual IRL violence. In which case you can’t reason with him, stop feeding the crazy.
I mean, to me, the main question I have is ‘after all the stupid things he’s been saying, why are they interested in him anyway?’