Grrl Power #626 – The superhero handoff
Field testing your new super powers against a team of people who have had super powers for a while is probably not the best strategy, but that syringe was a one time thing, and Sciona just needs to buy time for whatever is going on in the next room to finish.
Fun fact, joint locks don’t work on Achilles. Well, I guess joint locks work, but joint, uh, twists don’t. You can twist all you like but all you’ll accomplish is flipping him over, but they don’t hurt him. It’s not like anyone can dislocate his shoulder or twist his wrist around so it pinches the stuff in there. The wrist meats. Sciona has hugely enhanced strength at the moment, but she’s had it for all of six seconds now. She’s thinking about strength in terms of punching and lifting, not grappling, at least not yet. Pressure strikes don’t work on him either, since that’s just someone briefly pinching a nerve to cause pain or numbing a muscle, and you could drive a sand crawler over his nerves and it wouldn’t hurt him. A taser wouldn’t hurt or immobilize him either, but ultimately he’s easy enough to deal with, just pin him to a wall with a car or punch him into the next county. Handcuffing him to a pipe won’t slow him down much because he can put all his strength and weight into yanking on them without risking injury.
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Yes, nice teamwork! Nice to see the Major get into it today!
That was a major league punch.
He might be nicknamed ‘Super Man Lite’, but the diminutive is misleading when using that yardstick!
He can’t quite fly fast enough to go back in time
He’s not quite strong enough to push the entire planet
He’s doesn’t quite have good enough vision to see individual atoms
Yeah. He’s got the “lite” powerset.
He can carry a coach, whilst flying. That would be good enough for me. Especially as there is a lot of toughness required, to do that without having limbs torn off.
People needs to remember that “lite” powerset doesn’t mean it’s weak and “cold” fusion doesn’t mean it’s cold.
But …
*scratches virtual head*
… Super Hiro’s attack isn’t imaginary.
Heck, even i I /i have the strength to push the entire planet.
But to you it would just look like I’m doing a pushup.
Actually, that same idea would be true for everybody. When you do a pushup you are pushing the planet away from you, but that’s only in relationship between the mass of the Earth & your mass, your strength as related to gravity’s effect on your body (in Superman’s case, the inertial energy produced by his Flight power would substitute for his strength), the inertial energy your strength can generate compared to the inertial energy of the Earth moving through space, etc.
That’s a heck of a lot of calculations to determine the amount of distance that you push on the planet, just to get a result that’s probably measurable only in the scale of Planck Inches though.
:D
Must be humbling for him – normally he’d be all that but here he’s number three on his own team (Max and Stalwart are stronger)
He already seems like a very humble, level-headed, fun guy. Why would it be further humbling?
Agreed.
Although he was taken aback to realise that Maxima had been pulling her punches, in their sparring. Whilst Joe Guy is perfectly correct to say that Stalwart is stronger. However, unlike Maxima, he and Hiro are close enough, strength wise, that their rivalry is valid.
They both have four star strength, even if Stalwart does win in arm-wrestling.
But Hiro can fly, so his is still the superior power set, for general purposes. Whilst acknowledging that Stalwart is actually significantly better, overall, in hand-to-hand combat, because he has two other advantages. Namely having four star defence (to Hiro’s three). Plus he has a powerful immovability, with his personal gravity control.
Both of them have interesting potential for power-stunts mind. Gravity control, even if Stalwart is unable to overcome the ‘personal’ limitation, should also allow him to reduce his effective weight. Allowing him superb jumping power (combined with his super strength and toughness).
Even with just the super strength he should be able to leap significant distances. Whilst the toughness would let him survive the landing. However gravity control would eliminate the damage such locomotion causes. Along with both massively increasing the range and providing a means of course correction (up and down at least) in flight.
Thus allowing Stalwart to close the gap, and possibly surpass Super Hiro’s overall capabilities, by simulating flight, in this way. Especially if he manages to extend his gravity control to things he lifts. Then he too could safely pick up a bus, full of passengers, and (relatively safely) jump around with them.
Meanwhile Super Hiro could try to keep ahead of his rival, by working on his sonic absorption and redirection. This is related to Anvil’s kinetic version. However it is more specialised and thereby normally less useful. Only if a foe has some kind of sonic attack (or is armed with flashbangs) does it ever come into play.
But he could use it to develop super stealth capabilities. Particularly as his ability can extend beyond just himself. So he could make a team silent, or dampen the sound of a vault door being ripped off its hinges.
Then consider that we have examples of spellcasters who need to speak their spells (we see graphics implying that Dabbler is saying something, even if it is not in a recognisable language). Potentially giving a way for him to block such spell casters.
With this engagement giving clues that such power stunts would make his sonic powers more generally useful.
Plus he may be able to get really flexible and convert sounds of one type into another. Ultimately being able to create audible illusions. Making a car revving sound like a roaring predator. Or a monologuing villain speak with a squeaky voice. Or turning “shoot the cops!” into “DON’T shoot! We all need to lay down our weapons.”.
Mind you, even without power stunts, like Anvil, he could charge himself up with sonic energy, prior to a fight. Maybe flying just behind an allied jet fighter, on route, to top up his batteries. Thus giving him versatility in a fight. Granting a ranged sonic attack, on demand. At least until his stored power is depleted.
With enough sonic control, you could also be a fire mage, ice mage, and create forcefields. Just has to do with molecule excitation.
Remember that altering gravity doesn’t alter mass. Even if he make a bus full of people lighter, the g-forces involved with a super jump would be pretty hazardous to people without super toughness.
It would also not reduce damage from crashing into things. that is an energy and impuls thing, depending on mass. If his power is gravity control, not mass control. He could fly with a battery powered desk fan. Not fast, but more like staying in the air. He sill has mass, so he has to expend the energy to accelerate but without gravity not to stay up. Now if he can angle his personal gravity, that is a hole different thing.
All true. But that is why I indicated ‘relatively’ safely. We could see astronauts jumping around, on the Moon, making leaps that would be dangerous on Earth. Let alone whilst wearing a suit that could rip open and kill them. So clearly even normal humans can survive superhuman leaps, if that is conducted within a significantly reduced gravity field.
Stalwart would need to be very careful to judge their tolerances though, for precisely the reasons you warn about. Unlike his own leaps, where he can go as high as he likes, he must ensure that any transportation of civilians is done in a more controlled fashion, where he can cushion the landing, enough that the retained momentum, after his shock absorption, is not enough to cause whiplash or other serious injuries.
Of course if he can control the direction of gravity, as you indicate, then things become a lot easier. As Sydney demonstrates, with her ‘Flyball’.
But do not forget that he can control the magnitude. So if he realises that he has overdone a jump, he could reduce the gravity to 0.01 of Earth normal. Meaning that there would be almost negligible downward pull. So he could deploy a regular parachute, and that would be more than enough to leach off excess momentum, whilst still at a safe height.
He could then gradually allow gravity to increase until the downward fall was fast enough that they will reach the ground before nightfall, yet slow enough that he can guarantee a nice gentle touch-down.
Panel 4: And Hiro demonstrates why it’s not a good idea to be a super-villain. It means spending a lot of your prison-time in the dentist’s chair…
No sydney, this is teamwork when you aren’t caugh unprepared. And against a single enemy.
Actually, I was thinking, “Yes, you missed all of the training that happened before you were hired. Also the training while you were doing your HR required training and initial paperwork, but that’s a rounding error.”
I was thinking the same thing. Having your entire team get caught flat-footed is a pretty major tactical disadvantage.
Sure, the last time they fought a major villain who didn’t catch them by surprise, and fought them solo, it didn’t go as well. But Sciona isn’t doing as well as Vehemence because she didn’t get several minutes to power up beforehand. And because fighting her doesn’t power her up the way it does Vehemence. And she’s using a temporary power boost that she’s not as familiar with as Vehemence was with his powers. And lots of reasons, really.
Yes, Arc Swat’s skill set played right into Vehemence’ skill set.
Not this time.
+1
Well, DaveB wanted a villain that would make people say pretty much the same thing as when the Hulk appears…”Aw, no. Not him!” Vehemence fills that criteria quite nicely, I think.
:D
That was not Thor’s reaction!
Well, when Thor says, “Oh, come on,” he didn’t really say it with much enthusiasm…
:)
Where’d you go?
*searching around for the ninja*
Anyhow, wherever you disappeared to … Thor’s reaction when the Hulk appeared, was incredibly enthusiastic. Enough to silence the entire stadium!
His subsequent response, regarding having to fight him is another matter entirely.
“Yes, you missed like 3 years of training”
Tickle, tickle tickle!!!
:-D
I’m pretty sure he’s mocking Sciona, but *is* Achilles ticklish? That would be a hilarious way around his powers. Next scene: Sciona uses her wings to tickle his ribs, he laughs and lets go, she throws him out of the combat.
If he tickled her back would that be wrong? She is trying to kill him and tickeling her could break her concentration.
Backs aren’t that ticklish. (j/k)
That depends. Ticklish really varies person to person.
I guess it would depend on what he was using to tickle her back, since his arms are both occupied….
…And, for the sake of “appropriateness” in a public forum, we should leave that thought right there without extrapolating it any further…
True, we would not want to erect any unsavoury analogies.
I think you could legally make the argument that tickling, which would normally be a form of battery without consent, could be justified in this case either as a means of restraining a fugitive of the law, an act of self-defense to stop her attempt to kill him (probably not, since I doubt his attack on him even meets the threshold of assault) or the rest of the team, or barring that an effort to protect government property in the form of Achilles’s uniform. Such tickling would have to be used primarily to incapacitate, with care taken to avoid sexual contact.
Then again, I’m not an expert. And we should definitely not turn this comment thread into another four-day multi-thread discussion of legal questions, and anyone who attempted to start or bait such a discussion would be a bad, bad, bad man.
Legal discussions are iffy to begin with considering this is not OUR Earth and it developed somewhat differently. Had to have.
Dunno, apart from the fact that the general public had become aware that supers did exist (even if the press conference was the first time that they have been officially recognised), there is little to distinguish their Earth from ours.
We would be equally unable to detect the presence of
our supernatural overlordssupernaturals hiding themselves behind the Veil.And, even in the Grrlverse, supers had managed to keep a low enough profile, not to usually be noticed, up until very recently. Eventually starting to fail due to expanding numbers. Although doubtless the introduction of smart phones would have had a part to play. Prior to that though they were nothing more than the cause of various legends.
Which could equally be true of our world, if supers exist, but have been better at avoiding doing their thing when cell-phone armed witnesses are around.
And there are a lot of things, in history, which we rationalise away, as being impossible. If events seem plausible, then it is ‘history’, if something seems incredible then it is ‘made up’. Despite some of our most important historical sources having a mix of both types in their writings!
So the only thing that distinguishes the two is the fact that we choose not to believe some of them.
Importantly including things which would be descriptions of super human powers, if we took them on face value.
Take King Arthur. Forget all the ‘knights in shining armour’ rubbish. The very first account of him told of him single handedly slaying hundreds of enemies! Then there are numerous miracles officially acknowledged by various different religions. To the secular world these are dismissed out of paw, as being superstition. Yet they could be the works of super healers and other genuine supers.
Then, of course, there are the most interesting mysteries. The ones we have tangible proof for. Yet no explanation for their existence. But which would fit in very easily with the narrative, if we were actually living in a universe with supers and super gadgeteers.
Such as the discovery of an analogue computer dating from 87 BC!
Since he would not be able to do enough damage to constitute assault the charges could instead be attempted assault with intent.
Assault just requires the threat, so the ability to inflict damage is not actually stipulated. In fact there is a large body of case law where even spitting on someone is considered to be assault. Because it falls under the category of ‘threatening offensive contact’.
Unlikely to happen over this term, as it is well defined in law, and I am quoting it in a context which has oft been explored in these forums. So, even though I am a layman, I now that the legal basis is solid.
In fact what Sciona is doing could even be considered to be ‘battery’, which is the actual carrying out of ‘offensive contact’. But that would hinge on whether the touching was considered to be of an offensive nature.
1. and 2. have clearly been met as Sciona has no lawful authority to attack Achilles and has obviously made contact (the rips to the shirt for example).
3. As you say, fails on the first aspect, as Sciona cannot inflict damage. Which just leaves proving the ‘offensive touching’.
As Achilles does not seem to be bothered, it would be hard for a prosecutor to claim that this was offensive. So it is unlikely to be brought to trial.*
However Sciona did intend to cause injury. So I agree that a charge of attempted battery would be a runner. However that would also be accompanied with a charge of assault, as that has occurred.
* Especially if Maxima has her way and manages to incinerate Sciona. A “crispy pile of ashes” is unlikely to be charged with either assault or battery.
Fear on the part of the victim is part of assault, and Achilles isn’t afraid at all.
Battery…. actually, a lawyer might argue that “Bet you can’t make me” constitutes consent.
…. then again, all those wing-stabs to the torso are probably attempted murder, which the victim can’t consent to.
…. THEN AGAIN, her violent actions here, up to and including attempted murder, are probably justifiable on the grounds that she’s dealing with home invaders who had previously engaged her with lethal force without warning, subsequently pursued her from the previous encounter to this site, entered without knocking, blew her shit up, caused serious property damage, slammed her into the ceiling, punched her in the face, and physically restrained her, all without adequately identifying themselves as law enforcement.
… the death traps in the entry hall are still inexcusable.
:)
Nice lines of argument.
I must point out the attempt to Mirandize. Although, given, he probably should have led with “you’re under arrest” or similar.
The Miranda warning does not, in and of itself, count as identifying as a law enforcement officer. Granted, a reasonable person might be expected to infer that. But under the circumstances, where she’s interrupting to shout at him to release her before he even finishes the first clause of the warning, and possibly before she’s even processed what he’s saying, a decent defense lawyer could make that case. Especially, you know, since the law enforcement officers are SUPPOSED to identify themselves as such.
Alternate reply to “Release me!”:
“You are under arrest. Your freedom to move about has been arrested.”
Sciona probably put a BIT too much faith in her steroids…
Cheaters don’t win.
Unless they have four legs, then they are going to win pretty much any race against other mammals. All other things being equal.
Of course users of steroids can win. But not once they have been found out to be cheaters!
Not endurance races
One can argue that mankinds dominance over this planet is due to us being massive cheaters in every possible way thanks to our sophisticated brains. But then again “Treason doth neuer prosper? What’s the Reason? for if it prosper none dare call it treason” -John Harington
Yes. We made an intelligence-based build and abused tool-use, creating a game breaker.
TierZoo primate “Tier list”
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj4xM2n7dnaAhWQxZ8KHQquDmwQtwIwAHoECAAQKg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHCUNQYsgctY&usg=AOvVaw1Lmxnq_bCoEs2yXYimeGts
Basically, nerf human inteligence to dog level, we’re still top tier just off endurance builds.
Same link, shorter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUNQYsgctY
Heh. The gamer way of looking at evolution.
More used to the table-top gamer version, so quite amusing to see the modern take.
I’m assuming this is the reference but even if it’s not, it’s still obligatory:
https://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1526
Anyone who hasn’t read these, I’d advise searching the Nerfnow archives for “Nature’s Balance”, all 8 of them are great.
Heh.
The Neanderthal path was not a bad one mind. All humans, outside of Africa, have between 4% and 6% Neanderthal DNA. So they live on to the present day, as a part of the human race. So pure Homo Sapiens in Africa and hybrid Neanderthal/Homo Sapiens in the rest of the world.
Cheetahs can’t last much more than 10 seconds at full speed. Whereas some canids can run for miles to take down prey. The most successful predators in Africa are Wild Dogs (not to be confused with feral canis domesticus).
And, strangely, humans are pretty much the best endurance runners on the planet. An old hunting tactic is to just run prey to death. Never catching them, but continuously forcing them to move until they collapse from exhaustion.
It’s part of the reason why dogs are so prevalent: they can actually keep up with us.
Also, when you think about it, about half of the Olympics is track and field, which is basically running (and of course the epitome of that is the marathon, which is just running for a preposterously long time), and many of the popular sports heavily feature running (and soccer, the most popular sport in the world, is a bunch of people running for an hour and occasionally doing something)
That said even dogs can’t keep up with us. I’m pretty out of shape compared to my roommate’s dog but I can keep going a lot longer than her. By the time I’m on my third wind she’s done for good.
That might be true for a dog that is out of shape, however some breeds of dog can easily keep going for over 100 miles before getting tired that’s almost the equivalent of 4 marathons non stop as a marathon is 26.2188 miles and a Newfoundland are able to swim over 50 miles before needing a rest as well, so dogs can FAAAR outpace what a human are capable of.
*paw print of approval*
Ahem, an hour and a half, if you please.
I have a friend-of-the-family, who was a professional footballer in England (i.e. real football), plus played and coached rugby in South Africa. Who, after he retired, and moved to America, took up a coaching position with (I think) a college team.
So this white haired old man sets them a few tasks, to judge their skills and fitness. At the end of it he tells them “your basic stamina is not good enough, we will have to concentrate on that, before moving on to other things”. To which they all said that they were perfectly fit. So he issued them a challenge (which I paraphrase).
“OK, we will run laps around the stadium. If any one of you can keep pace with me, until I stop, then we will carry on with your current training as is.”
They had to do it his way.
Mind you, of the three sports American Football is the one which requires the least stamina. It is right to have a focus on sprint, and other burst fitness. However if your team has significantly more endurance fitness, than your opposition, then you do still have an edge.
My only comment about this is that some of the people on an American Football team do require to have high amounts of stamina. Those would be the QB, especially one that likes to run around like Russell Wilson, RB (running backs), and wide receivers.
Yup. But ‘require’ and ‘have’ can be different things. This is why it is necessary to have a good coach.
By the way I must give my respect to the NFL, and to Shaquem Griffin!
A man with inspirational dedication and drive.
Yeah, let’s talk about an old farmer winning a marathon:
https://elitefeet.com/the-legend-of-cliff-young
Well, that is as I recall the anecdote. But I originally heard it back before I got my Grrl Power debate training. So it may have been:
“If any of you cannot … ” As opposed to “any one”.
The guy was clever enough not to risk there being one or two endurance running enthusiasts amongst the group.
Although, my memory may be right, as he did have that testing, so could have spotted such individuals.
Canines, like humans, have massive endurance, compared to other mammals. A valid hunting technique used by both humans and wolves is for a small hunting party to find prey, scare it into running, jog after it (tracking is an essential skill here) until you find it again. Repeat as necessary. The speedy run of the prey will be quickly sapping its endurance and the distance between stops will get shorter and shorter. The relentless pursuit of the hunters never gives the prey a chance to fully recover. Eventually (often in less than an hour) the prey is so exhausted that it dies from overheating or just can’t run away anymore when the hunters catch up to it. A few claws and sharp teeth (canines) or pointy sticks (humans) put the prey out of its misery and food becomes available for the rest of pack/tribe.
We’re basically like zombies or Jason to prey animals.
yep. Pursuit Predation is why man survived til today. we’re a race of Micheal Meyers, re-appearing just when our prey thought it was safe to rest. and that’s when we decide to be seen/heard.
Heh. Back in high school, my family was taking care of a friend’s dog while they were on vacation, and one day it made a successful break for the front door. Probably just wanted to go home.
I took off after it, and chased that damn thing all the way across town and out into the countryside. I was a pretty good cross-country runner back then … About four miles into the chase, the looks that fella was giving me when it checked over its shoulder started cracking me up. “Holy shit, are you still there?”
:-D
This is a good story! >:D
Better still if you can injure it first. There’s a reason why throwing spears were one of our first weapons. Not likely to kill an animal, but if it’s bleeding, it’s going to reach that exhaustion point a lot faster.
We have one additional huge advantage over most other animals, canine included: no fur. In africa, where we evolved, the temperature was shortening the time it took for the prey to overheat, while human, with his ability to sweat on whole body, was barely feeling it. Canines can’t sweat and need to cool themselves off by sticking out their tongue …
But then try outrunning huskies, in Alaska or Canada. Or a smear yourself in blood and try to keep ahead of a pack of hungry wolves, in Siberia.
Not that I would be confident about an ‘average’ modern human outrunning dogs anywhere. Scare them off by throwing stones, maybe. Or avoid confrontation and move out of their territory, without provoking an attack. But if they had an incentive to kill you (or had been trained for the purpose), I think malnourished and/or sedentary* modern humans would loose the race.
Especially as, even amongst fit humans, there is not a high proportion who train for endurance running.
Just be thankful that doggies are man’s best friend (and women and children)!
* Between the two this covers a lot of the world. 1.9 billion are overweight (which counts as malnourished). Whilst almost 800 million are malnourished due to a shortage of food.
Where that 10feet cane……. I need to trip a four legged athlete.
Yorp: “Cheaters don’t win.”
That’s only circumstantial, rather than actual. Let’s take Martial Arts contests as an example:
If you beat your opponent into a bloody pulp, but had to cheat to do it, only the judgment call for winning is affected if you were caught cheating. Yet, the does not make your opponent any less of a bloody pulp.
If we’re still talking about the same two combatants in the situation where the “rules” favor the survivor, then cheating is irrelevant & the winner would still be the one who can walk away from the bloody pulp they leave behind.
:)
^ This – “cheaters never prosper” is more of a philosophical mantra than a practical one, unfortunately.
For example, Lance Armstrong won 7 world titles before they were officially retracted when he got caught and banned for doping, but if he’d quit after 5 he likely would’ve been in the clear forever (the company paying his $5M bonus for year 6 was what triggered the investigation).
Or, as my dad used to say when I was a school athlete and started joking about being strong enough to go head to head with him, “youth and skill are no match for old age and treachery.”
Which is why we need to split sports into ‘augmented’ and ‘cheat free’ versions. Drug enhancement is so prevalent, why not just let them get on with it. But up against other folks who want to do likewise.
Then implement the death penalty for anyone cheating in regular sports. Because they had an alternative, yet still chose to seek an unfair advantage over those who sought to compete unaided.
To be fair, her goal isn’t to beat them. It’s to stall them (and survive).
Nice! ^^
I’m curious if she’s strong enough to get out of this grapple again. Achilles or not, if you’re stronger you can always drag his limbs away from your face or use some judo etc. if you’re strong enough. Buuuut Hiro and Maxima can just punch her until she stops, if that becomes necessary.
My thinking exactly, except you beat me to it and elaborated on it more than I did (the Hiro,Maxima bit).
Not only can Hiro and Maxima “just punch her until she stops” they don’t even have to pull their punches (too much) or worry about hitting Achilles. No like he’s going to be fazed to much if he gets hit by some friendly fire.
Achilles makes a good wingman, from blocking shots to just tossing him like a football.
Yup. She’s distracted with trying to hurt him, instead of just trying to muscle out. That will give somebody else time to move in and start beating on her again. And they don’t have to worry about breaking his ribs.
Sydney this is what maxima was trying to tell you about. This is actual team work not just using your teammate as a prop
Ok, tell that to Sydney…She’s smart enough to pick up the lesson, but it’s that type of lesson that’s learned quickly, rather than trying to learn it by contemplating it.
Sydney sort of got lucky back at the “OK Ranch” steakhouse battle…Maxima was probably the only one of ARC Swat who wasn’t totally surprised when the villain mob attacked; Max already talked about it with Arianna, in that Max intentionally used the press conference to draw out the super-challengers, but evidently didn’t tell anyone on the team about it. Max was expecting that the team would be attacked, but couldn’t know the when/where/strength of the attack…She didn’t expect the attack to have so many combatants with unknown abilities all at once.
Training & teamwork worked well for subduing most of them even though most of the team were caught by surprise, but there were a couple of snags because of a couple of problematic power-sets were included: Mr. Googly Eyes with Nemesis for one and Vehemence for the biggest problem.
Sydney got lucky during that battle primarily because she had recently learned the “3-steps ahead” strategy from Math & used her long-term knowledge of “genre savvy” & a partial knowledge of the abilities of the team-members to implement that strategy. Now, think about how formidable Sydney can get as she learns more about the team & how they’ve already trained to work together.
Just as DaveB said that Vehemence was made to be the villain that makes heroes say “Aw no! Not him!” when he shows up, there will soon come a day when villains all over will be saying “Aw no! Not her!” when Sydney shows up…
Hiro’s kinetic expression is evocative of Superman. A pissed-off Superman, who knows that this is a person who he can safely punch for a change.
Wasn’t he described as superman lite™?
Minus the laser eyes and frost breath of course
pretty much, yes.
Also minus the silver-age ability to just name new powers as the plot demands. (Thank you, superdickery.com)
But plus sonic absorption and super libido.
And complimenting that, super sexyness.
Do not forget his most impressiv and important superpower – to tell identical black t-shirts apart.
Hopefully Sydney didn’t miss anything…!
I’m expecting the next comic to have the rest of ArcSWAT finishing the teamwork smackdown on Sciona, with Sydney in the background furiously scribbling notes about it.
Good to see the guys not getting the cameo or damsel treatment this time.
Agreed. I like that Dave had Sydney comment on the changeup as well, great self-lampshading.
Yea. Not that the comic prevaricates. In the Grrlverse females tend to have the stronger powers. Which justifies keeping them at the centre of attention, most of the time. Keeping consistent with that concept though, it does mean that there will be times when guys need to be rescued by girls. Given the absolutely huge historical content, elsewhere, that works the other way, I am fine with that.
But agree that it is nice to have some balance. Working as a team even the less powerful individuals can be devastatingly effective.
It used to bug the hell out of me when Bond was struggling with some villain, trying to reach the gun a few inches from his hand. This despite the damsel in distress being right there and able to pick it up, to save the day!
Yes, under most circumstances you would not expect a civilian to get in between two trained killers. But if they have pretty much tied each other up, then anybody could save the day. It is nice when it is not just the protagonist who does that. Amongst other things it is interesting to see how the dynamics play out differently, in the aftermath.
Although we can pretty much figure out what would happen afterwards with Bond. But some predictable things I approve of. ;-)
I used to love the modern Bond films for the gadgets and chase scenes. Then I watched a few of the older films in the franchise, and was completely gobsmacked by a) the blatant sexism and b) the terrible and/or contrived plot progressions (often dictated by point a, such as the example you gave). I realized I don’t actually like James much, just Q and a few of the villains.
Poor Sciona – he is going to hate supers, even more, especially Achilles – image as you are thinking you are damn unstoppable and your wings can cut everything – and then a regular looking guy just laughs at your murder weapon (which would slice everyone into a thin red paste as we saw previously) as it just tickles him!
And to top that off, it’s not the first time that she’s proven to be completely ineffective. Vale didn’t put any effort in dealing with her either.
Now, how to subdue Sciona (extremely unethical because violating body integrity), after the temporary bloodboost wears off, inject her with an anti-clotting agent so it’s to dangerous to break skin for upgrades?
I say go in the opposite direction. Inject her with the Andromeda Strain virus. It has the effect of immediately clotting all the blood in an individual infected with it. Let’s see her circulatory system try to pump sand through her body.
That kills the person.
“Caaaarl, that KIIILLS people Carl!”
Well, yes, people do have a tendency to stop being a problem once you’ve murdered them, but that tends to be frowned on. Until they’ve had their day in court, at the very least.
Yes, your honour, it was that bitc… woman, Sciona, who murdered me!
It’s a good thing that witnesses to the act of murder can testify on behalf of the murdered, huh? To be honest, this is why murderers who want to have a lot of witnesses are a lot more rare than those who don’t want witnesses…
Sciona has already been convicted and should be DEAD by beheading… It just wasn´t effective enough. Therefore you could argue that she already got her death sentence and there is no other trial necessary. Except of course the death sentence was the milder punishment – when you deal with magic and immortality there could be worse.
Well, think about how many more charges she’s been racking up that would solidify & enhance a stronger sentence than “beheading?” After all, They clearly need to up the method of execution if she can continue to commit more crimes even after the death penalty had already been put into effect.
Well she should be: incarcerated, in traction, interred, incinerated or incontinent!
All those things at the same time sounds inconvenient.
Indubitably.
Those ethics and legalities apply to regular human beings because that’s all we have in our reality. In their reality they have magical space aliens like Dabbler and Sciona, and supers running amok. Whatever it takes to pacify them without going overboard for fun is what they must do.
I honestly dont get it though, achilles isnt very strong, at all. Barely above human norms due to not having to worry about hurting his muscles. She should be able to FLEX and break his hold. I see why attacking him is useless, but just the instinctive resistance to being held should have been enough for someone as strong as she is now.
He’s not holding her though. He’s holding himself. And his joints only have so much stretch before his invulnerability kicks in. Yes, she could, with correctly applied force, break free. But she’s not thinking about that, and with incorrectly applied force, she’s just pushing in the wrong directions to break free.
Yup, the author makes that point in his blog.
Sciona is very smart, when she applies herself to solving a problem. However she tends to have knee-jerk reactions, which can be very ineffective, due to blindly lashing out, in anger.
That sums up her character very well. *tosses Yorpie snack*
*leaps up and gobbles the snack down in a singly gulp*
*lands and licks lips appreciatively, with a big slurp*
Indeed, he doesn’t have super strength, but there’s nothing preventing him from making her push against him forever. She could possibly force her way down and out of that hold, but his invulnerability would make it very difficult, even impossible, depending on just how much give his muscles/joints have.
She just grabs one wrist, grabs the other wrist, and pulls his arms away from her like she’s pulling taffy. Doesn’t hurt him, but there’s no possible way he could maintain his hold.
Really, that’s all it would take given the vast disparity in strength.
Absolutely true — but figuring that out is costing her fractions of a second she can’t spare right now, and I think that’s all Achilles is trying to accomplish. She’s blinded and someone has his arms wrapped around her head. Her first instinct was to cut him to ribbons, which didn’t work. She’ll probably try to break the hold by twisting her head away next, which would work against most people, but I’d bet that Achilles is going to preferentially hold onto her head rather than trying to keep his feet on the ground. He’s not super-strong, but judging by his size, he’s well above human average — definitely strong enough to keep hold of her head for another half-second until she spins hard enough to break his grip, or finally (as you said) just grabs one wrist in each hand and pulls him loose. But, by then, she’s given the rest of ArcSWAT an extra second to line up the next hit, and she can’t afford that.
If she goes with another instinctive move, she may well throw Achilles *at* Max or Hiro, hoping to slow them down — but of course both of them know that they can just smash Achilles *back* at her, which (1) they will do, and (2) will take her by surprise.
I confess that I really didn’t figure Achilles to be especially combat-effective without increased density or super-strength to go with the invulnerability. But more and more, I’m seeing that’s only the case if you’ve already faced him and/or know his limitations. Because as element of surprise goes, he’s *massively* useful.
And now I’m picturing Max and Sciona playing Achilles Racquetball.
I think this would be more fun to watch than when Max & Sciona were using that big steel door back & forth…Achilles doesn’t care, he’s earned his place on the team as the “Ragdoll Member.” Heck,he’s even proven how useful a Ragdoll Member can be!
:)
I was actually looking for a good spot to make a tennis joke about the door – given that Sciona served and Max sent it out of play, I think the point goes to Sciona. Whereas Max served the fireball earlier and Sciona’s hit was clearly out of bounds, so I think it the score is 15-15 now.
Except Hiro just got a turn to serve, so apparently they’re playing doubles? Which means Sciona’s partner should be stepping through the rift and onto the court any moment now…? Man, super brawl tennis is confusing.
About as confusing as the game of Brockian Ultra-Cricket, I think. But it too is a physically active game.
I declare Arc-SWAT to be the winning team!
Achilles is not just stronger than an average human. He’s (appears) stronger than a human of comparable muscle mass. Normal humans never push their muscles to the limit, because when you do, ligaments tear and muscles rip. The only time humans can reach 100% power, is times of EXTREME stress (the old tale of mothers lifting cars to rescue their baby) where survival NOW trumps risk of long term injury. Or via extreme training (weight lifters have been known to tear their own muscles). Achilles operates at 100% the whole time since he doesn’t have to worry about his body tearing itself apart.
I get your point, but I’m failing to understand why shouting ‘Release me!’ is a good alternative to simply grabbing and pulling. ^_^
It is not. But Sciona has anger management issues and a tendency to attack blindly. Rather than pausing, for a moment, to pick an effective strategy.
Hi Sharp!
If the others are as on-point as Sydney says, which I think they are, they should know that Achilles isn’t their ‘handcuffs solution’. That he is only holding her long enough for someone like Dabbler to join in and do some type of supernatural imprisonment technique/technology on Sciona.
So, right now it is a race against time. Can they lock Sciona up before her robot minion finishes working on that staff?
Now you’ve got me wondering…
…that door that Sciona kicked-in — how close is it to the area where her blood-golem is cutting Reality open?
If it’s just a wall away, then all we need is for someone to peek-in & discover that Sciona’s just a distraction away from accomplishing her task, which might not be clear to our heroes yet. Interrupting that golem’s work might be a task for which Sydney is well-suited…?
Hey, there. :D
Whilst Sciona is applying force against his bones, or trying to stretch any tendons past the point where they would become damaged, Sciona will not be able to make him budge.
Once she figures that she can apply the force to the flexible parts though, where he is just resisting with muscle strength, then she can easily peel him off. He is invulnerable but not inflexible. So just peel has grip off, and his paltry normal human strength will not be able to resist.
Technically he has the lowest rank of super strength, but that only equates to about 150% of a normal human’s strength. Due to not having to fear ripping muscles or otherwise harming himself. The raw strength that he has is actually no more than anybody else has, if setting that bonus aside.
This though is where having superior martial arts skill would be invaluable to him. Because for every technique which can be used to escape a hold, there is a counter-technique to maintain it.
Now fighting a vastly stronger opponent severely constrains the options available, so the rule breaks down fast. But his invulnerability does allow for other techniques, which would be unavailable to mundane fighters. For instance some things a martial artist will not do, as it would cause considerable pain to themselves, or risk injury, or the limb being pulled out of its socket!
However Achilles can ignore all of those issues. Plus, if fighting someone with poor skill (in this case compounded by anger management issues), there are sufficient options to ensure that such a hold could be maintained a long time. I would not say indefinitely though, because if Sciona kept on struggling, and varying her escape attempts, sooner or later she will chance upon an effective escape.
Of course a really good martial artist could simply reapply a new hold. But we must not forget that Sciona does not just have super strength. Even ignoring her magic, that injection had half a dozen other special qualities, who’s labels we could not make out. Super speed or reflexes would be amongst many which would render human speed counters ineffective.
“This though is where having superior martial arts skill would be invaluable to him. Because for every technique which can be used to escape a hold, there is a counter-technique to maintain it.”
Isn’t this part of the reason they reached out to Math?
Unspoken, yes, it may have been. However not from anything we have seen in the comic or had mentioned by the author.
Math is ONLY interested in pushing his martial arts skills, by finding opponents suitable to challenge him (setting aside his fascination with boobs). Which is why he is on the team as a civilian specialist. He is not career military and serves strictly on his own terms.
We have seen that he is willing to give tips to Sydney (‘three steps ahead’). However martial artists have traditionally been shown as only taking on worthy students, as their apprentices.
Even if Archon asked Math to train Achilles he may well refuse.
However if he did, and Achilles managed to master Math’s skill set, then he would be an utterly formidable opponent!
He’s not very strong, but he is an unbreakable rope. You could tie someone up using Achilles, and there’s no way out.
And this hold is basically that. The only way out is to force his fingers to release their hold.
In short, even if Achilles is an unbreakable rope, the knots can still be untied.
Didn’t the door and Sciona fly in the same direction?
I wonder if this is the first time they put this move on practice.
Yeah I bet off panel Achilles was dodging that door while he lined himself up with Hiro’s hit.
Hope you are taking notes Sydney! :-)
Just about thirty seconds done!
Which puts us on pace with your average Dragon Ball fight episode. (discounting any villain monologing and the obligatory flashback)
And the screams of exertion that unleash new power levels. Don’t forget those.
That was a nice slam crunch.
Achilles, no! ‘Bet you can’t make me’ isn’t part of Miranda!
Maybe it is part of the Super-Miranda.
What’s the memoranda on Miranda, Pander? Propaganda? Slander? Don’t meander as a bystander, just taking a gander. We want candour!
Maybe it is part of the Miranda on Cetaganda? or introduced by Lamanda (Luaga)? Anyways don’t get your dander up Yorp. Or your mind will start to wander.
Not to instate myself as one’s commander but wander doesn’t rhyme.
There are degrees of rhyme, such as “Assonance”:
“in poetry, the repetition of the sound of a vowel or diphthong in non-rhyming stressed syllables near enough to each other for the echo to be discernible.
(e.g., penitence / reticence, or rain / again)”
Although I’m also fond of the definition used in the film, “Educating Rita”, wherein it’s called:
“Getting the Rhyme Wrong”.
;)
:)
Assonance, akin to phonetic alliteration, is not something that I would consider a rhyme, though it’s definitely a form of non-humourous wordplay with its own merit. I am not sure what your examples are supposed to be proving, however, since they seem like rhymes to me, though perhaps the shared I sound in the first could double as assonance.
As for “Getting the Rhyme Wrong”, I have not seen the film in question so I don’t know if you’re referring to what rappers call a “slant rhyme” (a near rhyme that often requires minor alterations to the pronunciation to function) or to a subset of the “intentional ****up” comedy technique. In the latter instance, however, I find that it really helps to hear the words.
Don;t chunder, by thunder.
Sorry, my blunder.
I’ve always felt that law enforcement officers should have some flexibility to improvise while reading their nemesis’s rights.
Just means he has to start over, IIRC.
In before Sciona knows about the orbs.
She doesn’t. She’s seen them before, and talked about them:
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/2430
And then they reset reality in the local space-time cluster. Does Sciona remember seeing them before?
She sent her super construct to attack them, immediately after the reset. Which is not something that happened the first time round. So it is likely that she was not affected by the reset.
Using the same logic, we might get to see the original Sydney (or her blood drained corpse) hanging in the next room. Which might require some extensive PTSD treatment for the clone we see above.
Or haggling over who gets to use the PC on raid nights.
I think the magic checkpoint magically transported all the people in it back to their starting status when it was triggered.
That’s why Pixel wasn’t still strung up after the reset.
This was my interpretation as well, everyone in range of the checkpoint being reset to their original location/status, including short-term memory (except Sydney by virtue of being the one to trigger it). I think Sciona just saw her 2 new captives vanish, but remembers everything up to that moment.
Aww, Sydney is on top cuteness form.
LOL! Combat experience matters!
And training is what helps you survive an experience so that you can learn from it…
If Sydney wrapped the tentacle around an opponent’s leg or torso, and simply pulled down, it would be a major handicap in a fight, equivalent to lugging around fifteen tons or so strapped to your body. Could be one of her most practical moves, short of disintegration with the PPO.
Agreed.
Although Vehemence showed that, when talking about the top end super strength opponents, that can be fairly ineffective. Just as Sciona could use her super strength to break free, if she spent a moment applying the force correctly, it was simple for Vehemence to disengage the tentacle.
But, sometimes, even a moment can make a difference, or provide a distraction. So it does remain a useful tool in the arsenal.
Or she could use it to tickle Sciona, as a distraction attack…
Question is: What happens if she tries to wing-cut the light hook?
Oooh, interesting query! Testing is required!
We’ve seen it get crushed in booby traps a few pages back, and she didn’t feel any feedback from it. So no damage at least.
But those mammary traps were physical ones. Whereas the tentacle has an appearance which is more reminiscent of something formed out of energy …
kind of like Sciona’s wings.
But Vehemence has experience in his powers. He knows how to use them, and he knows how to brawl.
Sciona has neither.
Mmm, I would qualify it more myself. Sciona clearly has seen combat before. At least one, where she got her body mostly chopped off. But she clearly had a major league reputation, so it is likely that she actually saw a lot of combat. And do not forget that she took out Pixel, despite her invisibility, laser claws and being a were-jaguar.
Regardless of whether Sciona used magic or physical attacks, she was the victor. Supporting the fact that she is an experienced fighter. And Sciona was able to do that despite (judging by the rapidly healing scars) being clawed by Pixel. So was either tough enough to soak that up and take Pixel out physically. Or was able to continue casting despite the pain and distraction.
Likewise using blood to buff herself is not something new to her. We know that she took troll blood, to gain regeneration. Plus either that, or her orc body, also had at least low-grade super strength. Given that, even with the bones in her forearm broken (by Halo’s orb), Sciona was still able to lift Sydney up one-handed!
From Dave’s blog though we do know that the hugely enhanced strength (and likely the cocktail of assorted other powers) is not something that Sciona has practised before.
In conclusion I think she does have combat experience, and familiarity with lower-grade super strength (and maybe some weaker versions of the other buffs too). Sciona does have super-fight experience with Pixel, Vale and Maxima, but probably not much prior to that.
But she is not experienced with her fully enhanced powers. Nor with super teamwork. Mind you even Vehemence was new to being fully charged up on Vehemic energy. So he had never conjured up pants before, as an example.
However Vehemence was principally a brawler, and did have access to supers, who he may have sparred with. So your points remain good, despite my quibbling.
IIRC, Sciona remarked about her Sydney bypassing her wards.
I highly doubt those wards are purely for alarm. So Sciona was probably helped by magic in her fight with Pixel.
But yes, she did beat Pixel.
But this form of battle, punching people, is probably new to her. I think she primarily relies on ambushes and magical aid in her fighting.
GrrlPower – going places films and cartoons refuse to go. The male hero punching a woman villain.
It always low-key bothered me when, every time, combatants in a brawl would get paired off based on gender.
Good observations, from both of you.
well, this is also why the actual phrase for morals is don’t hit a Lady.
the moment they’re trying to hit or murder you, they lose the “lady” part, and become entirely hittable.
Yep, any time it’s a guy fighting a female, be she villain or hero, he’s basically just there to go “I don’t know where I should put my hands.” while she beats him down in three moves with a cocky smirk. That trope got old before it first happened.
Feels good with Grrlpower recognizing that everyone is a person regardless of what they’ve got down south, and that people deserve to be punched by other people. Especially bad people getting punched.
So, I’m something of a chin na geek, specializing in small-joint jujitsu, and hyper-limber guys are a real nuisance. I remember one fellow who just flowed with the wrist lock until his arm was wrapped behind him and he had no more room to move. I’d successfully tied him up — he was out of arm — but he was in no way uncomfortable. I had to hit him..
Very frustrating.
LMAO that sounds like a match that would have been fun to watch.
I’m hypermobile, it’s basically impossible to hurt me by pushing my arm up my back in the usual restraining technique, you’ll hit the physical limit of humerus pushing into ribs before the soft tissues start hurting. Yes, you could eventually dislocate my shoulder, and it will work as a lever when you find the physical limit, but conventional joint locks don’t work in the expected manner.
I never could understand why pushing someone’s arm up their back was supposed to be painful, until I realised most of the population have a different range of motion.
How did Achilles’ hair get combed back after being swept forward like that?
Eighties hairstyles are invincible.
Some hairstyles should never be made immortal though…As Achilles shows us.
Running with the ‘immortalised hairstyles’ (as opposed to some being a bad idea), it is interesting that ABBA have cooperated with the creation of younger-looking virtual versions of themselves, to act as their surrogate presence for performances.
Especially as they have commemorated that by recording a couple of brand new ABBA songs. The first since they split up in the 80’s!
Which is bound to contribute to keeping those images in perpetuity. There will doubtless be a qualitative difference between virtual avatars made from whatever old footage might be available (for instance trying to recreate Marilyn Monroe) versus what they have done, which is to have purpose recorded versions made, in great detail. Albeit that they then had to hit them with potions of youth.
At a Guess?
Part of his invulnerability. as soon as momentum stopped acting on it, it snaps back.
Probably the same way that Sciona was flying upside down towards him yet in the next panel is somehow right side up in the sleeper hold.
Comic book MAGIC.
Yeah there’s some extra moving between panels that we don’t see.
Is it just me or does Achilles look a bit off? I can’t describe it properly, but to me he just doesn’t look like he has previously.
his arms are drawn weird. and his face is kinda off? i dunno, i just sort of expect the occasional art goof from this comic at this point
His upper arms do seem a little cartoonishly big.
The standard human head is drawn with the eyes half way between skull top and chin. The eyes are too far up the head. And his arm muscles are way too beefy in this panel. Did he eat a can of spinach before the fight?
It appears to be mostly his forearms that are enlarged, so there’s a pretty good argument for it be the side effects of a can of spinich
I suspect that Achilles is going to end up more or less naked again. But he should be used to it by now.
Well, Achilles IS a bit of a show-off, but I suppose even he has some self-imposed limits.
At least someone is attempting to properly Mirandize Sciona, even if Achilles is likely doing it as a way to troll the fight (and didn’t even get through the first sentence).
There is no requirement to give non-humans legal cautions.
There may be bylaws regarding keeping her muzzled, in a public place though.
If you are going to treat her like a criminal, then she deserve the rights a criminal has. I mean, they give Dabbler the rights a human has.
I THINK they’re treating her as a terrorist wanted by a different government. So, battlefield combatant.
…. I also think that Gitmo is going to need a wider variety of cells.
They have no legal obligation to treat her as anything other than a rabid dog. She poses a threat and needs to be exterminated.
Do bear in mind the distinction between ‘legal’ and ‘moral’. I accord ‘person’ status to a far far wider range of species, and individuals, than any court on Earth presently recognises. As such I feel that Sciona should have the same rights as any other person.
Which in this instance still allows for her to be exterminated with extreme prejudice!
Those rights are before an interrogation. Not before an arrest.
Real life Miranda rights are explained to someone before they are interrogated. Not before they are arrested.
Actually, the Miranda rights kick in immediately upon arrest. Remember the second sentence: “anything you say…” That applies to all statements (even before the arrest). It is standard procedure to so warn arrested suspects immediately upon arrest for almost every US LEO (if there’s one that doesn’t, I’m not aware of it). It may be explained again before interrogation, but a good lawyer will hammer any department that doesn’t Mirandize immediately upon arrest. That said, I don’t know Archon’s procedures, and (as stated) Achilles may very well be trolling anyway (that’s part of his schtick).
hmm this sounds like something panther would weigh in on, I’d be keen to get his perspective. It’s been a while since i saw one of his posts?
HEY PANTHER YOU STILL HERE?
Pander probably has a heavy case load, at the moment. She is a senior, practising lawyer, and is very diligent, so that takes priority.
so they go through him, but still don’t hurt him. iiiiinteresting. makes me wonder if he has a weakness to magic, or if he’s immune to that as well
Archon did conduct extensive tests on him, and they do have access to magic. So I doubt that magic which causes physical harm would have any effect on him. However I do not see that invulnerability would necessarily grant immunity to mental or emotion affecting magics.
The one scene which could have proven that, one way or the other, was when Vehemence’s aggro aura was causing everyone to fight whoever was nearest, be that friend or foe. Sadly Achilles was buried under a pile of rubble, so the jury will have to remain out on that one.
So, Achilles’ first encounter with Dabbler might look like every encounter Math has with her.
Hey, I just realized: he’s invulnerable so Dabbler can feed off him without him being out of commission.
Invulnerable doesn’t mean tireless.
That’s a good point too, especially since it’s more spiritual energy not just physical.
My take is that she is curling her wings back in a U shape and trying to stab him in the back. (She is known for her back-stabbing tactics after all.)
Yes. Mainly, note that the pointy bits are choping onto his back.
If you’re talking about Achilles, nope, it’s just his shirt being damaged.
Even though the nerdy discussion of super powers is ultimately a fools exercise because it is susceptible to the ultimate cop-out retort of, “Well it is that way… just because.”, it is interesting to approach the discussion along the lines of what would super power X require to even function.
There have been recent examples of this done with Superman and Ant Man which demonstrate that it does not take too radical a super power to make someone into something very non-human and a rather unappealing existence. Your basic invulnerability is one of the most unassuming but profound examples of this.
To actually attain your basic invulnerability (think Mr. Incredible, Superman, Achilles, at el) you have to not only sacrifice you ability to feel anything but you have to essentially become a super M&M. This is an entity with an incredibly dense and impervious shell and some manner of “softer” functional core.
Obviously this is not the case with the supers mentioned already, but that is what it would take to be actually invulnerable. In all cases, their creators dream up some loop hole that allows their character to actually be more human and feel and be interactive with the environment.
Ultimately there is the plot loop hole of they are invulnerable up to a point, or they can dial it in, or they have control over their atoms, or etc. If you are truly physically invulnerable, you are a glorified paper weight. As soon as your character needs to interact with the environment you have to sacrifice some aspect of that invulnerability.
Achilles appears human and does human things, like touch, hear, see, feel, breath – now whether he actually needs to do this is another discussion, however when he says that something tickles we have one clue as to how to incapacitate him. (and the more human he is, the more susceptible avenues of assault we have).
Examples have been given about Achilles withstanding harsh environments, but think about what he just said. “That tickles”. OK, that is a concept and a process we can all relate to. Even though he is experiencing that sensation from a stimulus that would normally destroy a normal body.
Now, what if we experienced a tickle from every surface of our body? Think about that for a second…
If Achilles has a normal brain (which it appears he does, it just receives grossly diminished signals from his exterior) his brain would be completely overwhelmed… by a tickle.
Remember, you can’t have one without the other. Either he can feel a tickle or he can’t. A tickle reflex is involuntary so in order to keep Achilles’ brain a “normal” brain he can not control it. Thus, dipping him in the Sun’s corona may illicit a body wide tickle but such a feeling would actually fry his brain.
In conclusion, because Achilles can feel anything at all means he can mentally experience sensations from physical abuse so far beyond what any normal body could withstand or beyond the level of signal being sent to a brain is capable of processing. Achilles is susceptible to his own invulnerability because it allows him to feel things that nobody, or more importantly no brain, is set up to feel.
If you allow his brain to feel then it can eventually feel too much and seize. You can’t have it both ways.
And, if you say it can, then you are just saying, “just because.”
I could quibble a few minor semantic points but that’s a very interesting and logical conclusion. Many stories make a point of the isolation factor of immortality but I’m not sure I’ve seen a good look at the effects of prolonged unusual torture (intentional or otherwise) of the invunerable.
You seem to have overlooked the most simple and likely idea that Achilles is being fallacious and is simply mocking Sciona.
Obviously he can still feel things, it’s just that a sensation can never reach the pain/agitation threshold.
Pain sensors travel by different neurons than regular touch sensors. There are real life people that literally can not feel pain, thanks to some kind of condition.
They still feel when they touch something. They just don’t feel when they hurt themselves. And since Achilles never hurts any part of his body, the pain sensors are probably just non-functional (simply because nothing activates them).
PS: This real life condition is extremely dangerous, because people don’t notice when they put their hand in boiling water, or don’t feel when they break a leg and keep walking around with it.
There is a way out of this, though – the “WoD way”. Basically, in any experiment, if an outcome would be recognized as “Achilles being harmed”, this particular outcome is impossible. Of course, this means that some form of “recognition” is a fundamental physical parameter in the universe, an equal of electromagnetism or gravitation.
In terms of neurons firing, sensory overload may fail either because Achilles’ ability reduces intensity of incoming signal, or because it directly prevents receptors from sending “dangerous” data to the brain.
You can feel things without feeling pain. You have lots of other never receptors other than pain ones and pain ones only kick in when your body is being damaged so no damage no pain.
Also, for Achilles it’s not so much that he’s super-tough like Superman it’s that he’s immutable, he can’t be changed.
That’s right Sydney. There is a lot of training you have not taken yet. This part is covered in “Teamwork within your Squad.” These guys have been working together for years. BTW, you don’t get to see the Danger Room until after you pass Basic Training.
I hate to say this DaveB but the way you’ve been drawing the comic lately hasn’t been good. Please go back to the way you were drawing it a couple hundred pages ago. I mean, on this page in particular, everyone looks hideous.
if you hated to say it… makes me wonder why you even bothered to. it’s his webcomic, you don’t like it, don’t read it.
It is interesting to know though. Especially given that there have been comments saying precisely the opposite, for instance about Super Hiro. Which I agreed with (and felt that Achilles looks buff too). Although I feel that Sydney is better still.
However people’s tastes and opinions do vary, and it is reasonable for folks to speak up if they feel strongly about it. I was quite vocal when Sydney went through her ‘beach ball head’ phase, for example.
Of course it does help to point out what changes are disliked. Although giving the page approximation, since it was considered OK, does give a hint.
For instance I do know that some folks much prefer simple ‘four colour’ style plain art, for supers. So getting too much of a 3-D feel to the comic can detract from that. Which I can see would be a problem above. And it would also account for it not being a problem for others, such as myself, who are either not bothered by, or enjoy, the 3-D vibe.
Similarly with folks who get freaked out when in ‘uncanny valley’ territory. Although I feel that is less likely to be the case in the above page. As it is drawing more heavily on heroic imagery than normal.
Shouldn’t you actually be able to DISLOCATE Achilles’ bones, though? Like, you can’t tear him apart, and it won’t hurt him to have them dislocated, but it should be possible if his body is at all malleable, right? After all, he is able to move his joints at all, which is kinda crucial.
Dislocation involves toppings quite a few tendons and blood vessels.
Technically, normal human movement involves microtearing and rebuilding of muscle tissue. Raising your arm to itch your nose, or typing comments on a webcomic’s comments section, inflicts ‘injuries’, if of a sort the body is expecting and indeed is *required* to take to function properly.
Achilles’ power, as pointed out by Nimrod (even if he didn’t know he was doing so), is likely not “Hyper-Extreme damage resistance” because of the limitations of invulnerability, but is instead more likely some manner of active force nullification. He’s got an ability that pushes back against anything that would cause him harm; anything that *doesn’t* cause him harm affects him normally, so that he can do things like eat, breathe, get his hair cut, trim his nails, and so forth. The end result is the same – Achilles cannot be harmed – but figuring out how his power would have to work so that it allows him to not be a shaggy mantroll statue is the interesting part.
Consider the stated truth that Achilles is immune to joint locks/twists. THis is actually a classic tactic against (overly flexible) power armor or many types of brick – impact resistance and ‘invulnerable skin’ does nothing against using that empowered body to injure itself. Arms can be dislocated without harming the skin whatsoever, but Achilles is specifically stated to be immune to hypertension or any other sort of damage resulting from twisting his body the wrong way. Damage resistance/being proof against exterior forces doesn’t let you do that. If your body isn’t proof against *itself*, it can be forced to flex in ways it wasn’t meant to and cause itself damage. Plus, he doesn’t have Manpunzel hair or troll finger(nail)s, so clearly he CAN do things like get trims that involve physically removing bits of his body.
To me, all of that is a clear sign that his invulnerability isn’t sheer passive* force resistance, but is instead some manner of always-on semi-active ability that intervenes whenever he would suffer harm to ensure that he does not suffer that harm, instead.
You’re forgetting an important point – his hairstyle was SPECIFICALLY referenced as being “stuck” in that dated look because it was the last time he got it cut. I bet both his hair and his nails have not changed from the instant he got his power. (Nor has he needed to shave)
Invulnerable nails would be quite useful in specific circumstances because he can apply full pulling force in a VERY small area.
Possibly a good job he doesn’t grow (or shed) invulnerable hair – a few long hairs knotted together and coiled round his hands would make a brutal garrote. Slice through metal, given enough time and force, and never mind what it might do to non-shielded flesh and bone.
But kind of a shame that he can’t get rich selling his hair combings for super-strong compound materials :)
Achilles’ resistance to joint locks may be due to hypermobility, with a substantially larger range of joint motion than usual. You may be able to cause a dislocation, but you’ll potentially need to lever bone on bone to do it, rather than reaching tendon limits as normal.
(Normal hypermobility is useful to dancers, gymnasts and some athletes, but past a certain point it can be seriously physically disabling, with spontaneous dislocations etc, OTOH a super could have all of the advantages, without the disadvantages).
Time to break her concentration by a factor of 10. Time to talk about mouth feel for lunch.
You monster!
I just gotta point out that this page has probably the best single picture of Hero in the comic’s entire run to date. He looks great in that panel where he’s slugging Sciona.
It does rather look like someone has cast ‘buffness +2’ on both Hiro and Achilles.
yeah achilles, try you “zidanne” headbutt next
“Flawless”
I’m glad I’m not quite the only one who saw Sydney’s line there and immediately went “Why yes Sydney, you DID miss some training! Literally years of it, in fact!”
I’m not one to give Dave guff for military missteps or such in Grrl Power – it’s a comic for entertainment set in an alternate universe, some liberties WILL be taken and that’s perfectly fine – but it’s gratifying to see Sydney recognize, however obliquely, how above her level her teammates are. These are professional soldiers, elite troops – if Sydney could match them after a few days of running laps and listening to Max rant, that would be the *real* let-down.
Nevertheless. Go get ’em, Hiro. +3 Epic Punch Points.
Yeah they’ve lamp-shaded her presence here but note that none of the other recruits are ever around.
Sydney is the only one of the recruits that even knows about this operation. She only has knowledge about the council because her powers would let her find out regardless.
And she’s only here because her powers are just too useful to pass up on.
Also because she has a super shield, so it’s safe to bring her along.
Sydney has the ability, as she’s just demonstrated a handful of pages ago, to transport the entire team at supersonic speeds from an absolutely cold “wait WHAT” start in less than five minutes. That capability ALONE would’ve been worth recruiting her for, and will save Arc-SWAT heaps of cash on maintenance fees for keeping vehicles like the Osprey hot and ready to go. She’d be employed above her pay grade (as odd as that phrase sounds given what her pay grade actually pays her) for that capability alone, even if she wasn’t the comic’s PoV character.
Admittedly, half the team could do the same with carry gondolas of some sort, but Halo doesn’t even need the gondola. It’s a kludge, but in a Rapid Response situation a kludge you can assemble in ninety seconds is worlds better than an elegant solution that’d take an hour to warm up. And clearly nobody has figured out the ‘Build a boat with handholds that Max/Hiro can carry to schlep the team’ notion yet.
Is it just me, or does Achilles’ face look a bit off-model in the 2nd-to-last panel?
Well that worked.
…wait.. Achellies may be un..hurtable..
but he doesn’t have super strength last I knew? Shouldn’t she be able to move him given that she tore through steel and bent stuff etc?
or is it since achellies is undamagabel.. he can build up insane amounts of muscle and strength?
Though his power is weird as hell since if he can grow muscles that still requires damaging your body to do so….
So maybe no damage from “otuside sources” but still can build muscle, age, die of cancer or something
From what I understand, Achilles was mostly a normal human until somewhere in his 20s, and then he became invulnerable. He grew his muscles and hair before his powers kicked in. At this point he cannot get stronger, but he can push his muscles to limits that normal humans can’t without breaking their own bones. Old age is an open question, but considering he still looks 20 while actually being over 50, he might be eternal.
Heat death of the universe is gonna suck for him.
All well said. And the author’s blog, above, talks about this too.
In terms of the cast ratings, Achilles has one star strength, so as weak as it is possible to get, and still be on the super scale. Essentially he can push himself to 150% the strength that a normal person can, simply because he can ignore any risk of injury, from over exertion.
So, yea, there is no need for Achilles to work out, as he was already buff, when he gained his powers. Possibly before, but he cannot remember that, so we cannot say for sure. However, as the Grrlverse grants natural supers an enhanced physique, even if he had been a couch-potato before, he would have been upgraded to bodybuilder-like muscles.
Which will never atrophy, but can never be built up to the more ridiculous extremes, that champion body builders can reach.
So his “150%” is really “150% of an ordinary human his size who spends lots of time in the gym” So maybe comparable overall to, say, competitors in strong-man contests, but probably no stronger than the winners.
Achilles has super strength in the sense that he doesn’t have to worry about breaking his muscles. And therefore, he can exert a lot more force than regular people can.
Think of the stories about a mother lifting a car that trapper her child, Human beings are capable of extreme feats of strength, but doing these feats would literally tear the muscles from their bones, if done long enough.
That’s why the human body limits it’s own strength to levels that are acceptable.
Achilles doesn’t have to worry about tearing his own muscles, so he can always exert the full force his muscles are capable off. So because of that, he has mild levels of super strength.
It occurs to me that if Achilles could reach pretty high levels of strength if he can overcome the mind’s natural limiters. My first thought was adrenaline, but there’s the difficulty of not being able to actually inject him with said adrenaline.
Heh. Good point. And ingested adrenaline would probably be broken down, via digestion, before its effects could help. Or, even if it does, the crisis would probably have already passed, as it takes a while for chemicals to get through the digestive system and into the blood.
As a way of guesstimating, it takes a few minutes to get a buzz even from strong alcohol. Which would be too late for all but major battles or ones that are prolonged for some unusual reason.
We know it’s not possible to poison Achilles. And alcohol is a poison.
So I wonder if he can get drunk.
Many things are poisonous in a large enough quantity. Given the nigh-magical and/or supernatural nature of his blanket immunity, if he is able to feel at all he must be able to be affected by a non-lethal/non-harmful dose of many different poisons. Which include alcohol, and table salt.
Not to mention water and air.
The cast page (which is down now) explains that he already can do that natively.
I’ve always wondered, is it even possible to bend Achilles’ joints if he doesn’t want you to? Obviously he can be moved as a whole, but once he latches on like this is it even possible to get him off?
I’m sure she could get him off if she stroked the right parts…
His flesh would be as manipulable as any humans. Which Achilles could resist with 150% of the force that any normal person might apply, with their muscles. But nobody would be able to push him beyond the point where any action would cause even the slightest injury to him.
Whilst it is easy to picture him, with Wolverine-like adamantium bones, wedging his head in a closing vault door, to keep it open, the same would apply even if someone was trying to stretch a tendon or muscle to the point where it may start to tear. This would routinely happen in normal wrestling, if opponents are pushing each other to the limits.
In routine bouts this would only be a minute bit of extra stretch, and only expert fighters might even notice that he was resisting this. However, when dealing with upper end super strength, ripping limbs off is a serious hazard.
As Maxima demonstrated with Vehemence.
Likewise dislocating shoulders, slipped discs, popping any limb out of its socket, tearing ligaments and muscles. All of which an experienced fighter can ignore, if need be. In fact Sciona did just that, when Sydney broke her arm,* with one of the orbs.
Whereas Achilles is simply immune to any such attack. Even using his eyeball to stop a sword! But it can phase an opponent, who is used to ripping enemies’ limbs off, when the attempt fails, without any apparent effort being made to counter it.
* Likewise myself, as an aside. I kept on going after breaking my collar bone (oddly enough in a paintball fire-fight, rather than a martial arts bout). Admittedly I could not make good use of a paintball gun (needing both hands to use that effectively), but I was able to switch to war-correspondent mode, and photograph the remainder of the fight.