Grrl Power #535 – The best defensiveness is a good offensiveness
English has the word “twice” and even the somewhat archaic “thrice” but there’s no words beyond that. Fource? Frice? uh… Sice? It’s odd having a sequence that caps out at three.
Apparently this elite military squad’s schedule includes a 1 pm break for sunning. It’s kind of ridiculous I know, but given their public relations responsibilities it makes some amount of sense. Maybe this is just how those guys are spending their lunch hour. Though I don’t imagine you get an hour for lunch in any part of the military… except Archon. Other parts of the service probably consider Arc-SWAT to be a real cushy assignment compared to say, serving on the deck of a carrier… and they’d be right, especially considering the pay differential. But as the only part of the military that has a continual domestic presence, getting your hair did or going on a shopping spree to a fancy store with lots of cameras around is part of their M.O. So yeah, when SEAL Team 6 digs on Arc-SWAT for having spa days, they can be all “boo hoo, now I’m going to teleport on to my pile of money and have a blub.”
Varia’s bikini is nice and… I don’t know, exotic’s the wrong word, but it seems to be a good match for her. But I don’t think it’s the sort of thing you’d want to get a tan in, cause the tan lines would be weird looking. They do make UV (semi) transparent cloth, but the necklace thing it’s attached to would leave a pale ring around your neck.
Ooh, someone should make a UV transparent shirt with a non-UV transparent part that says “dork” or looks like a dong. Buy it as a gift for someone you don’t like!
You know what, I forgot to put a hat and sunglasses on Sydney. According to everything I’ve established about her, she should be as blind as a Drow seeing her first sunrise right now.
Oh, and uh, ignore the fact that the pool seems to have gotten bigger since I drew it last. Actually the only time I think I’ve drawn it was some aerial shot of the Archon building, and it was just a little blue square on one of the towers, but I decided it needed a gazebo with a sofa and a fire pit, because as previously discussed, they’re all hardened military types like that.
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In garrison, when there’s not an active training mission going on, lunch is usually an hour. I was infantry, and we usually got 11:30 to 12:30 when there was nothing going on.
As a fellow infantryman, I can confirm this. In garrison, things like breaks for meals and full weekends are USUALLY to be expected.
Ah. Fellow 11-Bang-Bangs. Yup. Garrison duty, though rare for me, was sweet respite. Generally 7a-3p with an hour lunch, weekends off, and all the range time I could eat. Then it was off to 3-9 months in the field doing training for a mission, or on a mission, or decompressing from a mission…
When I was in the Air Force we got an hour for lunch. Which you needed because it was usually a fifteen to twenty minute trip each way from where us non-flightline types worked to the dining hall.
May be more funner if you change the comparison lines to “Compare those! And these! And this and that!”
AHAH! You do it over here, too!
Do what where? o_O
Make suggestions for making a line funnier? Under no delusion that anyone else would find it better, less that the author has to take the suggestion
Personally don’t see anything wrong with Vahriah’s tanning suit (it’s obviously not designed to swim in)
It is not about the functionality of the suit as it is about the pattern of the tanning lines it leaves behind.
She’s probably found someone who gives her the power to redistribute melanin, so she can change tanlines as easily as most people change clothes…
The other thing about tan lines is that they only actually matter if you’re wearing something that exposes the part you haven’t tanned.
The neck tan line would fit under her work choker, so it’d have a tan line there anyway. So in a way it’d work there too.
Regarding “Thrice”: It’s not common, but IMO the best way to continue is (4) quarce, (5) quince, (6) sence, (7) septence, (8) octence, (9) novence. It gets a little dicier from there, but you can add (10) tonce, (11) elevonce, (12) twolce, (13) thorce, (14) quartonce, (15) quintonce, (16) sextonce, (17) septonce, (18) octonce, (19) noventonce. I think these (especially the ones below ten) should be easily understandable by most people without any explanation.
Isn’t ‘quince’ a type of fruit? o_O
Yeah, it’s red and grows in swampy areas under oak trees. It tastes kind of like a cranberry to me.
It’s also the spelling of the Spanish word for fifteen.
Also a nickname for folks who think Quincy is jut too many syllables…
Knew a lady in college whose last name was Quincy – offered up “Quince” as what to call her whenever she was introduced. Sweet but a bit on the odd side.
And that’s coming from a gamer, so.. yeah…
Yeah, it’s a lot like an apple.
There really is not anything after thrice.
Ha, I was just about to comment with those numbers and checked to see if anyone else had… given the pseudonym, I assume you got them from Deadly Rooms Of Death?
Fun fact: linguists believe that the reason we have unique names for the first two…I can’t remember what the phrase for it is…ordered numbers?… Anyway, we have a “first” and “second” but the rest of them are just the name of their counterpart in the…I can’t remember the name of that system, either…with a “-th” at the end (“third” probably just exists because “thirth” would be awkward to say), and it is believed that the reason for this is that proto-English only had names for numbers up to two. It’s not that they had no concept of numbers beyond that point or anything, more like how we don’t have a word for 10^24.
10^3 = Thousand
10^6 = Million
10^9 = Billion
10^12 = Trillion
10^15 = Quadrillion
10^18 = Quintillion
10^21 = Hextillion
10^24 = Heptillion!
There are quite a few historical (okay, archeological) records that show number systems of One, Two, Many for a variety of early cultures around the world.
One, Two, Many….
Pardon the query, but – a fellow Pratchetterian, by any chance?
How many gully dwarves are there, Bupu?
Wasn’t it the proper way to count one, two, many, LOTS?
Dunno about gully dwarves, but be sure to visit Gimlets before going off to Koom Valley.
No more than two
+1!
One, two, many, lots, and RETREAT!
Actually Billion has/is in the process of changing. Traditionally a billion was a million million. However the Americans seemed to want more billionares so they changed it to a thousand million and it’s becoming the norm.
Hey, don’t blame this on us. It was the French that changed it (according to Wikipedia anyway), we just picked it up and didn’t stop using it when they changed their minds.
Also we picked it up in the 1800s, well before even the first billionaire, so your ascribed motive for it can’t be correct either.
It’s the one place the US uses SI convention.
Thousand
Million
Milliard
Billian
Billiard
Trillion
Trilliard
Quadrillion
Graham’s Number. I win.
We don’t? I’d think in the American system this would be a septillion, or in the European system a quadrillion.
…Ordinal numbering system.
Shouldn’t that be base 12 then?
Incidentally, once, twice and thrice are adverbial genitives of the cardinal numbers. These are formed from nouns by adding -s, so the word Sidney is looking for would be fifs in Old English.
One of these days Archon is going to get together and make Sydney wear a bikini.
I always feel bad for Sydney when she feels like she has to compare herself to her teammates when it comes to body proportions. It always seems like she can’t be confident with her own body because her teammates are impossibly sexy. Sydney needs a confidence booster.
Fairly sure Sydney had that ‘issue’ waayyy before she met any real Supers
She’ll probably continue to have those issues when she discovers she has 100,000 admirers who like her build better than the other women.
inb4 one of the orbs has the power to make Sydney into a super sexy bombshell of a woman it’s just that she does not have that skill unlocked yet :P
That would just be too jarring. I’m not sure I’d even read the comic further if that happened. I’d have to have a REAL interesting tone on the mental hoops she’d go through for that to be even remotely tasteful.
Now a dream sequence, on the the other hand – in which she saves the team single-handed after transforming into Super-Halo, sweeps Hiro off his feet and goes in for the dream-kiss…
Followed shortly by wake-up scene of Dabbler about 2.5mm from her face going “Details! I want all the yummy dream details!”
Yes! So many ‘Yessess!’
Or opens eyes to see dabs hand that is bracing her as dabbler leans lust drunk on the wall with glazed eyes and the other three holding the stomach like someone with a 2 pint stomach that just ate 4 pint carton of icecream.
Sydney has to stop with the body-image obsession. You can be small, and flat chested, and still look good in a bathing suit. If she really is that hypersensitive to the sun, then just say so.
I know, doing so would ruin the joke.
However, what would be really funny is if the other women bought her a real bathing suit, her size of course, and got her to try it on. Then one of the men saw Sydney in it and actually paid her a complement.
Some people, in real life, have that same issue, but hey, they just need to ‘suck it up’ and get with the body-display program, right?
I would imagine that would be a funny page to read and Sydney does need help in the confidence department.
From my experience, that is a very real possibility. Story time…
Years ago I worked in a big production factory environment. The women I worked with dressed similar to the men except in the summer when jean pants would become jean shorts. Also during this time we would get corporate visits from customers who would tour the factory or watch their product being made. The corporate women in turn would wear business skirt and heels.
The corporate guys would stop to watch the factory women lean, stretch, and wrestle with tools and the factory guys would stop in their tracks to watch a pair of legs in a skirt and heels.
Long story short, you get used to your surrounding and the new is always interesting.
It’s not a body image obsession, it’s pure frustration of being the only super around getting her powers without getting a killer body too.
Syd is one of the few ‘super-empowered’ who is not a Super. This means she has to work around people whose bodies would make Gal Godot think twice about eating an ice cream cone. To paraphrase, less than 5% body fat, but not a C-cup in the bunch. Not an environment conducive to losing one’s body-image obsessions.
While I agree with you, it’s very clear that she has been very solidly surrounded and infused with patriarchal nerd culture, probably surrounded by male nerds with very few female nerd contacts. Her getting over the body images that rely on … hrmmm… a specific type of masculine sexual preferences is going to be a hell of a journey. She has constantly been made to feel less for her gender and for not conforming to a certain ideal. (Intentionally or not, this is a constant in nerd culture for women. Because seriously, no one can look like THAT without superpowers.) it would be really nice for her to have a real talk with someone who loves themselves as themselves. Maybe Ariana’s aid could join them in her bikini. That would be nice.
there is no such thing as patriarcal nerd culture and usually most nerds would be happy with any female including one of sydneys proportions (i personaly prefer people like sydney actually and im a huge fucking nerd)
The average guy would be having similar issues if he had to be around the guys in ARCHON.
I made my peace with not being the heavy workout type long ago so I’m pretty sure I could handle being the physical runt of the litter. What would bother me more is how six pack obsessed the female cast seems, presenting a rather strong pressure towards that particular ideal.
To be fair they don’t work out to get it.
If we see the guys out there later, and Leon is with them, I would not be surprised at all if he were wearing baggy trunks, a hawaiian shirt and a not too pleased expression, with the rest of the fellas in speedos XD
Although Leon is not part of the field team. Other than Sydney, the only other 2 who are part of the field tema not super bombshelles of either gender, would be Math (though he is close becasue he works out) and Peggy, the team sniper. Both are supper silled to the point of near supernatural ability, but not actually super empored like the rest of the team.
Lots of medications have “sensitivity to sunlight” as a listed side effect, and Sydney may have been burned once too often due to her meds. (pun intended)
Don’t worry Sydney. A few weeks of intensive military physical training and you can have abs like that as well. The bust and butt, not so much.
Nah, it’ll do good things for her butt too…
After having to do laps and the physical training, she’s gonna get some killer legs and a nice toned butt too.
You can take it to the bank that Peggy’s booty and remaining leg are very well formed ;)
A little more tonage for Sydney will not be a bad thing. I like her smalish bust and figure.
Okay having worn a wetsuit the only thing I did odd is wearing it in what appears to be very warm weather in what is most likely an 80+ degree pool. Wetsuits make you SWEAT or at least triathlon wetsuits do, maybe diving suits are different.
It could be that Sydney is actually wearing a rash guard and just doesn’t want to have to explain the difference.
(For those who don’t know, a rash guard (also rashguard) is a thin, tightly fitted shirt/pant combo that protects your skin from abrasion and the sun without holding in heat like a wet suit would. It is often used for water sports like diving, surfing, etc in warm waters where the cold protection of a wetsuit isn’t required.)
^ This. The rashguard is usually a spandex/lycra mix, and can be worn under a wetsuit. Modern wetsuits also have a little spandex (about 2%). The lycra in the rashguard, combined with the slight give of a wetsuit that has spandex in it, makes it much easier to get the wetsuit on without having to use something like dish soap to help you get into it.
So this is going to sound nitpicky but Harem’s “burkini” comment makes no sense…burquas and niquabs are meant to cover the HEAD, that’s the most notable part of the dress. Wetsuits can be worn with hoods that would replicate the effect and make the joke work, but I guess Dave didn’t want to draw Sidney without the hair, and it would be inconsistent with her getup in the orb discovery flashback: https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/554.
It makes sense in the general use of burka (that’s how my spell check wants it) where it’s only used when someone wears a full body covering. I personally have yet to see a burka referenced when anything is left uncovered. It is something that might be pointed out in comic if a character would know such details.
*knock, knock, knock, on 4th wall*
Sydney you are the most gorgeous gal there!
I do rather like Sydney’s description of Harem’s butt though. She’s shown that even she can be calypigian for being a straight gal.
And for your own loyalty to Sydney, I’ve got an alternative treat for you.
Bon Appetit!
No, she was commenting that Harem is calipygian.
Of course, in pointing that out I’m being hyperintellipygian.
He he. Now that is a treat…
Hang on… HANG ON!
What is he doing IN one of the snack, boxes?
Something SINISTER is afoot!
He just finished off the appetizers & is ready for lunch.
But who’s lunch is he? :-O
I believe she’s talking about, and glaring at, Jiggawatt’s ass though… ALL of the Harem girls (groan) are midwestern pale.
+1!
Let me put it to you this way: you remember that edgelord “artist” a few years back who would do things like piss on a crusefix or paint the Virgin Mary using elephant dung? The risk of someone seeing his work and interpretting it as an encouragement to beat up Christians was extremely fucking low, because this is America and we don’t really have a lot of people who do that here. Now imagine if you will that artist going to Egypt, where there is a history and continuing problem of violence against Coptic Christians, and pulling that exact same shit. Suddenly, the risk of this being used to encourage violence against Christians jumps dramatically.
And that is the difference between offensiveness and bigotry.
Meant this as a reply to Guesticus
I feel like the art has changed over the last 3-4 issues, particulary in much rounder faces. I prefer the old style.
Sydney, you’re not fooling anybody. You’re wearing it because it acts as a sun blocker.
But I admit, if the pool/ocean is cold, a wet suit is the way to go! Just… don’t get in the hot tub with it on…
I used to wear a wetsuit in the pool all the time as a kid. It was partly due to most summer days being warm rather than hot where I live, but also due to the length of time spent in the water. We’d literally go to the pool at 8 am and swim/play until the pool closed at 6 pm (summer holidays were awsome), that length of time in and around water will bleed a lot of heat out of over time, with the wetsuits we’d not end up with chattering teeth partway through the day.
I was stationed in the 1st Cavalry Division on Ft Hood, & we had 90 minutes for lunch most days. It was due to the terrible traffic in & around the base. For us in the barracks, it meant plenty of time to eat, & usually grab a nap after, if you wanted to.
So an hour long lunch does not seem out of place at all.
Granted, our day started at 5:30 AM for physical training, & didn’t end till at least 5 PM, but you get the idea.
erm….
I guess that first bikini is anvil, but I dont recognize the other two.
who’s who needs to be updated? neither of those looks like harem?
I guess from Dave’s writeup, one of those is “Varia”, but no idea who that is.
Left to right: Anvil, Varia, Jiggawatt.
oh, and Varia is one of The Mighty Halo’s fellow Recruits. She has a Gestalt power, meaning each human on earth allows her power to manifest so long as she has skin contact with them E.g. she can ride-along with Harem’s teleports, whereas if she were touching another normal person gives her the power to throw icicles from nowhere and that person’s brother gives her Freeze-breath, etc.
Harem is the one standing up talking to Sydney, Anvil is indeed farthest to the left in the sunbathing line, Varia is in the middle (her power is that her power changes depending on whom she is in physical contact with at the time, and she’s from Bahston but is of Aztec descent) and last butt not least that’s Jiggawatt (because that’s how Doc Brown said it!) on the far right. Hope this helps. :D
Hmm…
Thanks to Dave for updating the whos who panel.. and thanks to the commenters for ID’ing each.
however.. things are still wierd.
Jigglebutt.. I mean jiggawatt is allegedly.. the blond-with-army-cap on the end.. except her profile picture shows her with WHITE hair so…
thats confusing
:(
I also agree with the person who comnmeted elsewhere that I dont like the latest “new” style. I liked the older facial look for harem. looked much cuter. Now it looks… wierd for her :(
As has been explained: after her official debut, some people made reference to a certain Marvel character so DaveB decided to change her hair for future appearances, and when he gets enough income to hire a fulltime artist, and he gets ready to publish in physical form, he will go back and change her hair colour (and fix references to Maxi’s rank)
Incidentally, you forgot to tag Anvil and Varia for this comic.
Anvil and Varia do not speak on this page.
No speakee, no tagee.
Or was that racist?
It’s Extrovert-ist, is what it is! Who get all the recognition? The loudmouth talkers, that’s who! What about the nice, dependable introverts who quietly support the team? NOTHING! Squeaky wheel gets the goddarn grease, again!
That wetsuit fits her perfectly, it’s not government issue, so she must have brought it from home – foresight thy name is Sydney.
Remember, she is SCUBA certified.
Oh I know, I was referring to her preparedness for going to the pool without exposure.
It’s not that uncommon for office workers in Germany to pack a lunch, and on their lunch break, walk down the street to a park, then undress to sunbathe. This can include full nudity in some parts of the country.
There’s a ‘German sausage’ joke in there somewhere. I’ll just let the readers fill in their own details.
Lunch time in the military can vary a lot, but the shortest is always when on alert.
For lots of the people, it’s an hour.
Some shops get an hour and a half, or rarely, two hours for lunch on payday, unless something on.
That extra time on payday though is really iffy, depends on career field, shop chief, and OIC. (Officer in Charge.)
Of course I’ve only got experience with the Air Force, so your milage may vary. ;)
The wetsuit actually makes sense. Quick question: how many members of Archon are SCUBA certified? The former SEAL is, almost definitely. But outside of that, it’s a difficult thing to master. This might actually be a specialized skill Sydney has that the rest don’t.
Also, given Sydney’s preffered complexion of ‘jaundice’, she probably knows that she’ll sunburn like a cheap quiche, hence her use of swimwear that doesn’t expose skin.
I’m certain you’re right about military SCUBA — they need to be able to dive at night (a specialized skill), into constrained quarters (another specialized skill), carry weapons without rendering them nonfunctional, and come out the water fighting.
Recreational SCUBA, though, isn’t really that hard. Here’s everything you need to know:
– ABC: Always Breathe Continuously on SCUBA. DO NOT HOLD YOUR BREATH, EVER! The bends will kill you.
– Always dive with a buddy within arm’s reach.
– Your max depth should be 20-30 feet. There’s plenty to see there.
– Come up no faster than your largest bubbles.
– Don’t stay down more than 30 minutes.
– Wait an hour between dives.
– Wear a weight belt that is just heavy enough that you neither sink nor rise. (You will sink and rise slightly as you breathe in and out but it should balance out.)
– Don’t touch anything.
Getting certified will teach you enough that you can safely go deeper, stay longer, and dive more often. No matter what, DO NOT HOLD YOUR BREATH. The bends suck and may well kill you.
What are “the bends”?
Nitrogen narcosis, or tiny bubbles of pressurized nitrogen in your blood, that expand into large painful bubbles as you ascend.
Self-Edit: Too quick to post.
Sorry, I did get the cause of the bends mostly right, but nitrogen narcosis is something different, the rapture of the deep.
It isn’t just nitrogen, as Swamp Thang says, but dissolved gases in general. Usually nitrogen, though. It depends on what breathing mix you’re using. For example, in deep diving, helium is preferred over nitrogen because it does not cause narcosis, but helium can cause the bends too. The gas bubbles can form in and migrate to any part of the body.
The generic term is “decompression sickness” (DCS). “Bends”, “chokes”, and “staggers” are old terms (pre-1960). “Bends” is joint or skeletal pain; “chokes” is for breathing problems, and “staggers” are for neurological problems. More modern (post-1960) terms are “Type I” for symptoms involving only the skin, musculoskeletal system, or lymphatic system, and “Type II” for worse symptoms (e.g. neurological). For example, “Type I DCS”.
Regardless of which term you’re using, the treatment is the same: spending time in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. And just like any other medical condition, there are specific risk factors like dehydration, previous injury, ambient temperature, body type (higher body fat = higher risk of DCS), repetitive exposure (multiple dives in a few hours), duration of exposure (longer dives), etc.
While joint pain and arm symptoms are the most common and least severe symptoms, accounting for some 70-80% of the cases of DCS, the symptoms can include paralysis (2.3%), shortness of breath (1.3%), or even death (0.5%) due to bubbles forming in the nervous system, or birth defects like atrial septal defect (PFO), which can cause an arterial gas embolism. It IS possible to have permanent long-term injury, especially if it affects the nervous system. Some 16% of divers who have DCS with dizziness or paralysis end up with permanent neurological damage.
Anyway, I think it’s pretty obvious why “the Bends” are dreaded by SCUBA divers.
Not to forget, The Bends is a terrible diving spot
Jiggawatt: As I was about to say: ‘Excuse me…’ YOU’RE IN MY SUN!
How do people not know that she has a wetsuit? her origin story has her going scubadiving! or was that classified?
As I recall, Harem VORPed in after Halo’s origin story, and Anvil, Jigawatt, and Varia weren’t at the briefing where she talked about the SCUBA diving.
It wouldn’t have been classified, but given the military’s penchant for compartmentalizing information even when it isn’t classified, it would not be surprising for anyone except for Maxima, Ariana, General Faulk, Zephan, et al to know.
Maybe but with how chatty she was with Peggy you would think this would be a bit more spread, no?
Will Jiggawatt zap Sydney for that statement?
More likely, “damn right!”.
I’d like to point out that none of those suits, except for Syd’s is actually useful for swimming. Varaa’s comes closest, having a solid bottom and th top won’t be fighting the current to stay up.
Like mentioned before: Blondini, Anvil and Jiggs are not wearing bathing or swimming suits
had to comment on this cause you called us deck gorillas out.. “laugh”
it totally depends on flight ops and how we are manned. in my rate ABE we where 80% manned through out the navy. this ment we where never down for an hour if we where conducting operations. we ate in the cats or gear when we could and usually hit mid rats if they would let us into the galley.
frankly the ARCHON folks can have spa days all they want. its not like they or any of the special forces would ever consider doing my job and most of them couldn’t hack it if they tried. super powers or not.
consider it this way; all of the folks on deck have to be aware every second, if we are doing 96 hours of ops we have to be on, if we fail we and others die. even where we stand on deck is exact placement some safe zones are safe to within less than a foot.
we have super powers not as flashy as flying or magic but when you work in the most dangerous environment in the world you dont grudge those that get a day off.
sides i have bigger guns than any one in the world, my bullets travel thousands of miles, hit targets with undreamed of precision, and come back to be fired again.
might not be glorious and glamorous by by damn its the most fun you can have with your cloths on.
thanks for the comic its a fun read, keep up the good work.
Some notes on the “one hour for lunch in Basic”…. Company size was approx. 120 recruits. Lined up single-file to get chow, the one hour started when the first person in company started thru the line. So if you were tall (companies marched shortest to tallest in ranks), you had more like 10 minutes to inhale your meals.
And then Dabbler comes out.
I like how Sydney could manage a back-handed compliment for Harem’s backside…All without actually slapping anyone.
:D
Come on, Jiggawatt! Turn around when you talk to Sydney, it’s unpolite to turn your back to her and deprive us of improved fan service!
To be fair, a booty that magnificent is perfectly fine to stare at and appreciate regardless of sexual preference
What is she doing out in the foul natural light?
Her jaundiced glow is in danger!
A matter of vital importance, for the male viewer. Jiggawatt is without bikini in the 2nd picture, but has it on in the last. This should be corrected, the direction being obvious, at least to us males.
If you look closerer (can’t believe have to actually say that) at panel cheese, you will see a scrap of yellow around Jiggs’ hips
I literally couldn’t tell that was Harem until Sydney all but said so in the last panel. Still waiting for the art to either go back to normal or progress out of this awkward phase.
isnt it about time one of the guys turns around and says something to syd along the lines of “yes syd, all guys are like the borg, we all have exactly the same taste and exist in a hive mind”. that or she just gets slapped.
I had one unit where we got, no lie, an hour and a half for lunch when we were in garrison.
Is it just me or does Jiggawatts hair look more blonde than white on this page.
As has been explained, DaveB has changed her hair colour due to a too-similarity to a non-related character
Sydney, comparing POC to food is… a big no-no…
Calling butts peaches is referring to the shape not the colour (and has been used for all people).
Maybe so. Chocolate, though, not so much.
Sydney is probably going to figure out very quickly that you can pack more padding into a burquini/burkini than a normal swimsuit.
Feh, buncha malarkey. I’ve seen he votie, she could wear a bikini.
It’s not a case of whether she could or not, she chooses to not, and that probably goes back long before Archon, or even before college