Grrl Power #389 – Interview to a kill
There’s been some debate as to whether Deus is actually evil or not, I would suggest giving it a few pages before deciding. In my mind, good and evil can’t be absolutes, they exist on a spectrum. Is killing always an absolute wrong? In a hypothetical situation, killing one person to save two is objectively the better choice. Some people might debate that, to me it’s clear the best path is the one that does the least harm, so taking X lives to save X+1 lives is a no brainer. Of course there are rarely such clear cut choices in real life. What about killing two junkies to save one doctor, four kidnappers to save one scientist, or every televangelist to save one… anyone who isn’t a televangelist?
A Lawful Good Paladin kills a bandit, does that make him evil? What if the bandit only wanted the saddlebag of apples to feed his family? If the Paladin knew the bandit’s intentions and killed him anyway, then probably yes, if not, then no, at least not from the Paladin’s point of view. The son of the bandit might feel differently. Not only are good and evil not absolutes, they are relative values depending on the observer. That’s why bad guys rarely think of themselves as bad guys. Stealing from a bank that shattered the economy and took thousands of people’s homes, and the CEO not only didn’t go to jail, he got a massive bonus? Fairly easy to justify. The cops are working for the government which works for the banks and their job is to maintain the status quo. Are they good or bad in this situation? Robbing the CEO of his bonus would be easier to justify, and possibly more ethical, but does that then shift the value of the cops’ actions?
This is usually how Deus works, by miring people in semantic debates and inching their position ever closer to his, and I should add, with considerably more skill that I can legitimately muster. That’s why it’s difficult to write smart characters. There’s almost no chance the person writing them is smarter the character. An inventor or scientist, sure, throw out some technobabble and then show the thing they invented, but writing a genuinely intelligent character is tough. One of the few really good examples I can think of is Hannibal, or at least the first two seasons. Hannibal approaches situations in that show with forethought and planning that borders on Batman level absurd, but if you were really 65 IQ up on everyone else around you, things that seem like ridiculous foresight to someone else might come as second nature to you. Deus hasn’t really displayed this yet, since doing so either takes a lot of text or a long plot in which characters can reveal their machinations. I think that’s part of the reason why most smart characters come across as intelligent but unwise. They have flashes of brilliance but no long game.
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Hey, Long time lurker, I’ve been reading since the bank and this got me thinking; we’ve all been discussing Deus goodness/evilness, but what if it’s NOT his plan? If I was a prince and I wanted to be king, well… I’d have to get the original king removed first right?
Actually, that is some very good thinking
Seriously, this would be majorly appropriate to how kleptocracies work.
Even if is the prince’s plan that would categorize Deus as pretty evil anyway for going with murder.
Another interesting food for thought: It sounds like the people are in a horrible state. Whatever Deus’ motives, if he actually brought them ample food from starvation, a decent education from no education, and clean drinking water from, well, not clean drinking water, among many other things, is that such a bad thing?
Sorry about this link, but when I saw the video, I immediately thought of Math as a little kid.
https://www.facebook.com/StevenJoTV/videos/1152502908112519/
Fighting Dabbler’s college roommate, apparently. Can anyone confirm or deny rumors that Dabbler lived with a dragon for two semesters?
Hey, this is from a old assurance ad! It’s plagiat!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5qZDhx1sbac
Haha, other way around, Mr. Jump-the-gun. That ad took from the original video.
No-one’s going to lose any sleep over whatever’s happened to Indinge (most likely death but I’ll wait for confirmation) and yes, the country will probably be better off with Deus running things, but that’s not what concerns me. I find it very hard to believe that Deus is helping/taking over this country purely out of the goodness of his heart so what’s his actual game here? We could be talking anything from eventual global domination to simply an enormous vanity project to further prove how great he is. He’s very obviously not doing any of this on any moral grounds.
Honestly right now the only real differences I can see between Deus and Indinge is that Deus is smarter and has more resources.
It’s clear very few people mourned Indinge, just from the past few pages. Just another petty warlord.
And if Deus is doing the whole thing for his own aggrandizement/ego, so what? Unless he’s secretly turned that part of Africa into an exceptionally efficient hell-hole, she’s still doing a whole lot of good that otherwise would never have happened.
Which isn’t to say that he shouldn’t be watched as closely as a smirking Fox. Doing good for the wrong reasons may not get you into Heaven, but good is still done.
My suspicions? Since money seems to be a big deal, after all, one cannot be a superior super-villain over anyone else without the right funds and he wants to be just that, there is a very easy to see strategy.
Africa is home to some of the biggest diamond mines on earth. However, the diamonds are ruled by warlords. To fund themselves, there is gun running, drugs, even slavery to this day. Because of that, most countries will not work with these warlords and there are bans and penal punishments for buying and using “Outlaw Diamonds”. Now, what if someone was to come into an area, clear out corruption, fix the issues the citizens have. Protect them, clean their roads, get rid of the drugs, give them hospitals and schools. Then you get the ban on diamonds from your country lifted. You become a celebrated figure, people throw you ticker tape parades, and you can now start legitimately selling those diamonds.
Sounds like something, someone who wants to stroke his ego in public, make a ginormous profit, and own a nation would do. All you need is to start a coup.
The only problem with that is that diamonds are river gravel that only have value because of the DeBeers cartel. Deus doesn’t strike me as the sort who would like DeBeers to be in charge of his finances.
You’re probably correct in that the geography is important for some reason. There’s no shortage of warlords around the world to knock over, so this one had to be for a specific reason.
And the DeBeers are the biggest warlords on the planet when it comes to the Diamond Market, and there is no way in Hael that they would allow anyone to muscle in on their monopoly (they won’t even allow industrial diamonds to be sold as jewellery)
It’s probably not diamonds. There are other, far more valuable metals – columbite-tantalite, cassiterite, and wolframite in particular. Or their products: tantalum, tin, and tungsten. All of which are used frequently in things like automobiles and consumer electronics. Diamonds, as is pointed out, are not especially valuable (they’re flammable and literally common as rocks in some places) and are basically just the shiniest part of the demand for resources that fuels the constant unrest ravaging that region of Africa.
All right, I’m wrong with the diamonds, but my point still stands about the mines. And probably quite right about running the country well so he can make a whole lot more money in legitimate business. So half right maybe, so yay me!
It’s the small nation with a Vibranium mine?
Oh, wait, wrong continuity… my apologies. Still, some obscenely rare natural resource with exploitable properties to be exploited is not an unreasonable idea.
I think he’s doing it purely for the super villain image. Much like the lightning in his office, it’s what villains have so it’s what he needs.
I think you might be on the right track. My guess, Deus is actually a super hero who loves the image of being the badguy.
Ok, you can either invent a conspiracy theory, or you might just take Deus at his words: A few billion in, a few dozen billion out over time.
Money is his actual game, and he said so straight up. Now, we may discover that he has other plans down the road a bit, but really, isn’t a few billion as a return on investment a good enough motivation to accept for right now?
Finally! Someone with a sign of intelligence on this page!!
I think some people have trouble believing it because a LOT of CEOs in the US these days tend to have the foresight of small rodents. Many go for short-term gain that screws them or others over in the long run, so seeing one actually going for a long-term investment seems suspicious to them. Doesn’t mean that the people who think there’s something more going on here are stupid so much as the people who form their standard of how a CEO acts are stupid.
The most obvious answer I can think of it that it gives mroe resources as well as good publicity.
Thing about it, you are taking a small African country and turning it from just another desolate territory besieged on all sides into a secure, safe and productive member of the world stage. That is not only impressive just in the overall picture, but you now likely have a country full of older people who will raise their families and tell them of how terrible things were until you came and made things safe.
With relative safety and security set, you now have an entire country which now functions and generates it’s own GDP, which you can use and invest reliably so long as you take care of it and don’t overextend it.
Now to get this comic to be translated so various African warlords can read it and think there Are these kinds of people (superheroes) about over here :>
yes but then they would try to get their own superheroes, it would turn into an imaginary arms race
Government run LARPing?
not quite, because for one party it would be a delusion rather than merely fantasy; incidentally right up until the 90s the CIA funded research into ESP for espionage purposes
Warlord: Why are there men jumping off the building?
Minion: We got this idea from a comic on the internet. The Americans have superheroes! We have to compete!
Warlord: That’s it! Get everyone on the building! The internet never lies! Everyone flies today!
So this thing about writing intelligent characters, as well as the whole ‘speeding train’ morality question, reminded me of this link:
https://yudkowsky.tumblr.com/writing
That’s a guide from a guy who basically invented a particular sub-subgenre of fiction, that is mainly obsessed with having genuinely intelligent characters, and abandoning the idiot ball as a thing, about how to do what you were having difficulty with. The only problem with that genre is that it tends to be a bit preachy in themes, but I find that a much smaller problem compared to the fact that the whole idea is that the idiot ball is not a thing. God I hate the idiot ball.
Ugh. I hated that book. The ridiculous brinksmanship and the exhaustingly obvious insistence of the author that his characters are actually smart when they extremely aren’t drove me crazy. Real smart people don’t act like that. Real smart people don’t go on preachy rants for hours at a whim about philosophy. Real smart people don’t put themselves at incredible risk over small issues. And real smart people don’t have to deal with a society in which everyone around them are complete and unbelievable retards. Seriously, if you took the writer’s small handful of favorite characters from the story, the remaining characters are far, FAR more stupid than their counterparts in the original books.
Well, the book he made isn’t necessarily the best example of the genre, or the only one, and like I said, the genre tends to be a bit preachy — but that doesn’t damn the entire genre, you know?
Putting aside all the “end/means” arguments and the mathematics based ethics… Speaking as a father, the act that clearly places Deus into evil psychopath camp is having Indinge killed right in front of his son. Unless I’m 90 years old in my bed (or similar), I can’t think of much worse that could happen to my children than to watch me die, particularly prematurely, and far worse to have the manner of death be cold blooded murder.
Wouldn’t it be funny if, next page, Jnr. confronts Deus: “Damn you! I wanted to kill that bastard with my own hands!!! Guards! Feed my late father’s carcass to the hippos!! Make it look like an accident!”
I watched my Grandfather die, in a hospital bed, surrounded by his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. It wasn’t heartwarming, it was harrowing. 45 minutes of watching him struggle to breathe as his lungs failed him and heart refuse to give up. My cousin had to leave the room with her children, because they were too young to understand what was happening, and having them ask “why doesn’t he wake up?” was painful.
Having been through that, I hope that when I die, I do so alone.
My sincerest condolences for your loss. I can sympathize, having been through the same with my grandmother.
I’m in the “Fall asleep and don’t wake up” camp as well. Quietly, with as little fuss and bother as possible.
To be fair to Deus, it’s not like he had much of a choice, he was about to thrown out or killed. He did at least TRY the diplomactic route first. At least he didn’t have Indigne shot or cut to ribbons by Mr. Katana-and-Pistol. Looks like an induced heart attack at worst. Might not even be anything fatal, just something debilitating enough that Indigne won’t be fit to rule any longer.
I’m quite ok with how Deus handled this, actually. Indinge is just a warlord – someone who came to power by brute force, so I see no reason why I should look kindly upon him.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I think it’s generally agreed that Indinge is a slimeball with a great many deaths and much other misery to account for, and that nothing we’ve seen of Deus to date makes him worse. In fact I’d say there is a strong chance that between the two, he’s the lesser evil.
However, the lesser evil is still evil. And based on what we’ve seen so far of this scene, I’d say Deus is evil. His stated motive for being there is not to get a non-corrupt government in place, not to benefit the people – those are just means. His stated motive is the entirely selfish one of advancing himself. And he’s willing to kill/disable to do it.
Flip side of that: if he claimed that benefiting the people was his primary aim, is there ANY chance that Indinge would have believed him? I’d say none at all. That would have been taken as “he’s wants to scam all the wealth into his pocket rather than mine” and the conversation would not have lasted as long as it did. Going in there with expressly good motives would be guaranteed failure to persuade the guy currently in power. So we can’t know for certain (yet?) that Deus’s professed aim of self-enrichment is true.
Despotic does not necessarily mean evil. I can be quite amiable to a well-intentioned iron-fist type government if pulled off well.
The type of value weighted morality like X-1 lives lost for X lives saved is good is called Utilitarianism, which is ok but I prefer Kantianism which is basically “killing is wrong, don’t do it” which you counter with “but you could have saved that baby if you killed that guy” and I’m like “sorry, killing is wrong, I won’t do it”.
The upside to Utilitarianism is instant, but the upside to Kantianism is greater, if practiced by a majority of people.
Or, the majority of Kantianismites are wiped out by the much more aggressive minority of Utilitarianismites, and the meek inherit the earth. From the inside.
Where does Kantianism stand on maiming, mutilating, imprisonment and isolation?
This guy has a Victor Von Doom/ Lex Luthor vibe and is probably not actually the bad guy but does bad things to get what he wants. He helped a country for profit but not after killing the dictator king with his son whom might be nicer than his father. I am not saying he is like Lex Luthor because of the business man thing but because he and Doom both believe that they can save humanity from themselves. If you read the comics it show a lot of times that Doom and Luthor were actually right about protecting humanity and making them stronger but of course that is assuming a lot from this character so let us see where this goes.
This guy has a Victor Von Doom/ Lex Luthor vibe and is probably not actually the bad guy but does bad things to get what he wants. He helped a country for profit but not after killing the dictator king with his son whom might be nicer than his father. I am not saying he is like Lex Luthor because of the business man thing but because he and Doom both believe that they can save humanity from themselves. If you read the comics it show a lot of times that Doom and Luthor were actually right about protecting humanity and making them stronger but of course that is assuming a lot from this character so let us see where this goes.
His arrogance definitely puts him in the “Luthor / Von Doom”-ballpark, but if he targets only the evil types, I’d think that puts him in the “Dexter”-category.
Deus is a bastard, and should know he’s doing evil to evil people to accomplish good.
Now, in my view, tolerating a greedy murdering dictator is a bad thing, and Indinge is a dictator that either needs a certain amount of reform, or removal. And while Deus might be doing a LOT of good, and bringing an entire section of the world into a better economic standing, as well as a out of poverty, he’s obviously wrapped up in grandiose designs that live up to the arrogance of his name.
Good is not nice. But evil is worse on its best day than good is on its worst day.
On needing to be as smart as the ‘smart character’. I would argue technobabble falls in the same realm, as it *instantly* shatters suspension of disbelief for me if the technobabble crosses a certain line (somewhat dependent on how far diverged the setting’s parallel reality is set in, very much dependent on how descriptive the writer attempts to be).
I think in this case the biggest difficulty lies in the fact that a writer is substituting time (i.e. planning) for the native talent. You can plan out the plot absent the intelligent character and let them pick the best course of action (which you can iterate on if it changes other characters’ actions). But you only have so much time to actually write the thing.
Another one artists often get wrong is anything martial arts; as one who is moderately trained it’s like squirting hot sauce in my eyes. The one that always gets me is the girl who clearly never trained and has *one* punch to throw right in that movie and she raises her shoulder, doesn’t put any hip into it and strikes with such severe wrist angle it looks like she’d have to have fractured it had she actually hit the guy. (punching bag scenes are generally bad for this too).
I get it, time pressure, plenty of other things that you *have* to get right, and often these sorts of “substitute time on the problem for [insert some native ability that would speed up the process]” problems will end up being some degree of veneer.
-S
I tend to add in a neutral on these things. And the extremes on the scale is
Good: likes to help others.
Evil: likes to hurt others.
Neutral: is quite indifferent to whether others get hurt or not.
My impression is he falls more on the neutral within those classifications.
What he does, he does because he is thinking what benefits him in the long term.
He gains control of a country and its economics. Stability is one of the things he needs for the country to become profitable in the long run. Exploiting the hell out of the country and the populace makes a good profit in the short term. But the long play gains an even bigger profit.
With an added benefit of influence of a kind that is not always for sale.
He will do good when doing so is good business. And evil when doing so is good business.
The tendency to play for the long game however, will actually mean he will do several good things, all motivated by self-interest.
His arguments against his megalomania however, is basically void. Just because he’s been able to achieve the levels his megalomania dictates. it doesn’t invalidate his condition.
To use another insanity: You’re paranoid that the Illuminati is out to get you.
Even if they DO exist, and ARE out to get you, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not paranoid.
You might merely happen to be right.
Deus strikes me as very True Neutral. He offered the guy a chance to play along,and only killed him after he would not see the wisdom in the offer.
Indinge seems more of a Neutral evil. Or, maybe Chaotic Neutral? Hard telling from the limited info we got on him.
kantianism is a branch of pietism which can justify anything by ‘it is what this guy would do”.
i personnally prefer “it allows me to be wrong about what to do”.
One thing: everyone seems to be claiming that Lia killed Indinge, specially after Deus just told her to ‘abdicate’ him and told CeeCee that ‘his health took a sharp downturn’, maybe all she did was create a heart attack that would force him to step down in favour of his son
Oh, he be evil.
Item: he adopts an “ends justify the means” strategy.
Item 2: he goes for the easy solution – a kill – rather than attempting less lethal strategies first. With the means at his disposal he could have tried to harass the man into compliance by undermining the man’s stock portfolio, arranging a mysterious fire in the man’s limousine garage, arranging a few near-miss assassination attempts as warning, and so forth. Still might have ended up needing to kill, but going straight for the kill shows he has no concern for conventional measures of morality.
Item 3: he offers economic change without social change. The mechanisms that support a despot will remain in place and will in fact ensure his control over the economic infrastructure. Opposition that cannot be controlled or bribed will be surgically removed. The primary goal is long-term profit; only such good as does not interfere with that goal will be permitted.
Item 1: seriously? countless ‘good’ nations and people have used that strategy (remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?)
Item 2: what kill? Senior isn’t dead, dead can’t abdicate (and no, ‘abdicate’ was not used as a euphemism for ‘kill him dead’)
Item 3: fairly sure that education and better living conditions is social change (are you even reading the same webic? o_O)
Item 1: I suppose you prefer the alternative. WWII still going on? With everyone in Japan thinking the Emperor is a god and deliberately trying to get themselves killed, in his service, so he would personally guide them to heaven? (Believe it or not Japan used human-guided torpedoes called Kisetai and were developing their own bombers with nuclear payloads under Nagasaki and Hiroshima).
Item 2: He may not have fallen over dead, but his health was clearly threatened, and he was well within his rights to eject Deus by any means necessary, as Deus had gone from a guest to a con man, to belligerent thug trying to extort control of his country away from him.
Item 3. We don’t know what kind of “infrastructure” Deus set up in that country. The “education” may well be a bunch of sweat-shops where children build consumer goods for pennies an hour, if that.
Item 1: was just pointing out that ‘evil’ aren’t the only ones to use that line (or justification)
Item 2: “con-man”? what ‘con’?
Item 3: you really believe that Deus would resort to sweat-shops to make his money? Martha Stewart he ain’t (and if he was just going to do that, why would he object so vehemently to Senior and his corrupt co-horts from skimming 90% of his money away from the people?)
The counter to Item 1 presupposes the nations in question are good. I don’t want to turn this into a detailed WW-II discussion or a debate about the ethics of the use of the A-bomb in that war, but I will point out that the “good guys” with the A-bomb were also the guys practicing segregation, confining Japanese-Americans to concentration camps, taking Native American children involuntarily from their families to raise them in boarding schools in an effort to extinguish their culture and bring them up in Western culture, and sterilizing those with mental illness and mental retardation under various state eugenics laws. “Better than the other guy” and “good” are not necessarily the same thing.
I will concede that we don’t yet know whether Senior is in the process of discorporating, but the “health took a sharp downturn” remark strongly implies some action has been taken that is immediately and seriously counter to the gentleman’s long-term well-being.
As to education and better living conditions being social change – not as sociology defines it, no. Education and an improved standard of living can bring about social change but, as I pointed out, the offer made to the despot involved the despot remaining in control except with respect to economic development. Ergo the good citizens are being given education, but power to execute change is limited to that which will not threaten the regime or impair economic development. In fact, there is the implication that the mentioned civil war will be quelled either by an appeal to greed or by surgical removal of key leaders, ensuring that the warlord “who wanted to conquer for the sake of conquering” would remain in power. Or at least that was the offered deal before that little chest-clutching problem overtook him.
Still don’t see how those make Deus ‘evil’
All this proves is that governments cannot be measured in matters of good and evil. Every nation has some atrocities under their belt, and growing up looking over one of those Indian Schools you mentioned, I was reminded every time we went over that mountain that our government be trusted. Our country itself can, the government, not in the slightest.
All we can do is hope we picked good men and not people that are only out for themselves. Though even good men do wicked things.
Damn it, that was such a good post until I noticed I missed a cannot. so to fix it, *I was reminded every time we went over that mountain that our government cannot be trusted.
For those curious, that indian school has now been converted into housing, though before that, someone used it for the setting of a zombie movie.
Uhl
Don’t believe the ‘history’ that they feed you now a days, Japan was going to fold like a wet blanket.
Here is a page with quotes ranging from various generals, chief of staffs, amongst others.
https://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm
whether you trust this particular site is irrelevant, feel free to look it up for yourself.
—-
*Comic mode*
Cthillia.. I like the name, I also like how her terror inducing visage gives Deus an actual reason to look away randomly during his threatening speeches (after-all, you never know when she has to leap to action to horrify some poor backwater warlord that takes offence to your…diplomacy)
Was kinda obvious this was coming with Deus specifying “Indinge… senior” earlier. As for is Deus evil/good, well, what would’ve been the most moral thing to do, to let general Indinge suffer through being Deus’s de facto puppet leader or to save him the humiliation and let him die at the height of his power? In truth it’s a false dilemma of course, but those are probably the only options Deus is willing to offer.
Was going to put this as a reply, but it would have been buried and have no idea how to view ‘new’ posts except by guessing what was last read or posted
A prime example of a good guy, and one who is willing to sacrifice themselves to safe others (even if they know they will survive) would be Abbey on the latest episode of NCIS. At one point, she was mentioning watching a movie at school where the good guy kills the bad guy and everyone applauded, and how her teacher told them that killing is something that should never be applauded, even if it was a seriously bad guy (personal view on that, is that is still okay to be glad or ‘happy’ that the bad guy is dead, but don’t applaud death, that is something that should be used as a last resort)
Later, when they she and another scientist were captured by another bad guy and ordered to unlock the computers, she instead locked the door and threatened to release a deadly poison gas (which she did release, but it wasn’t a deadly poison), they survived but she was still willing to have died if it meant the bad guys were stopped (if there was no other way to stop them)
Maybe it’s just me, but I get a strong basilisk vibe from the person that whammied the king.
Hm…. A Gorgon?
He actually might just have a Heart Attack from the shock of a super appearing right next to him without him noticing … so clearly it’s not the fault of Deus’ and his henchmen ;)
Would actually be a funny twist… if Cthillia said “I just wanted to make him sign this Abdication Waiver!”
“That’s why it’s difficult to write smart characters. There’s almost no chance the person writing them is smarter the character.”
So much true… It can be ridiculous, but RPG players have the same problem. You can’t create and describe (for example) believable wizard with intercosmic knowledge or wise king if in real life you have the same IQ as orc barbarian.
If having issues writing convincing dialogue, I’d warmly recommend any source of crowd-storytelling, like 4chan’s /tg/ board or one of the writing subreddits like /r/writingprompts.
Those places can drum up some amazingly intelligent stuff – especially when commenters can note errors and suggestions, causing a very real ’emergent intelligence’ effects that could easily simulate a more intelligent person (at least as far as writing his dialogue when convincing people of shite).
Reading this discussion has frustrated me on one point. Several of the ‘Deus isn’t evil’ faction are trying to buy credence with a claim that Indige was trying to have Deus killed first.
This is false. It’s simply not supported by what’s written there, in black and white.
Here’s the sequence:
Deus makes his pitch.
Indige refuses for a host of both good and bad reasons, and tries to set his own terms.
Deus refuses those terms, makes several probably true accusations with a last-ditch pitch and veiled threat (depending on how sinister you view “I have plans for this region, Indige. You can profit from them, or… not.”).
Indige orders Deus to leave, backing that order up with a threat: “Leave now before I have you shot.”
At this point, Deus initiates Plan Abdication, and before Indige can defend himself by having his soldiers toss Deus off the balcony, he’s dead.
The sequence is absolutely clear, and I just can’t understand why so many folks are seeing some sort of attempt by Indige to assassinate Deus. It simply doesn’t exist.
Fairly sure most people agree that Deus ain’t a good guy, but ‘evil’? That’s going a might far without proof of evilness
Well, there was that rather blunt tell in #131, but that might have been a red herring.
Having a ‘double agent’ (or ‘spy’) does not make one Evil (unless you meant the Lightning Clicker and Maniacal Laughter, in which case… neither do those)
You can make your own call on the evil/not-evil issue. I’m just tired of the “Indinge shot first” claim, which is absolutely not true.
I hate to be “that guy” but the paladin example doesn’t work, a lawful good paladin exists in the rpgverse, more specifically and generally the D&D settings, and golarian , in these universes absolute good and evil DO exist, they are provable things with guidelines set by the universe itself. The paladin can Detect EVIL at will.
Demons, Devils, Deamons are all literal physical manifestations of evil, and archons, Angels, and celestial a manifestations of good.
A bandit stealing apples of his own free will for whatever reason is evil, because stealing is evil, and a paladin is well within his gods guidelines to slay him, but a paladin would most likely offer the man to surrender first, then it’s on the bandits head if he dies.
And killing him even without offering surrender wouldn’t be evil becuase your defending your property.
In the rpgverse killing isn’t evil, murder is. A paladin couldn’t and shouldn’t kill even a single innocent to save a million lives, becuase the innocent hasn’t done anything wrong. A paladin finds a third option becuase he’s a goddamn paladin.
If you stand by and do nothing, it’s not you who killed those people, it’s whoever set up this sadistic choice.
One of the biggest things that confuse me about these comments is this…many see selfish intentions as evil. Why is that? Putting one’s own self first is evil? Wha? It’s human. Nothing more.
Because putting ones selfish gain over other peoples well being is evil?
My view is because that’s how RPGs have conditioned me to think, Good is to put others before yourself and always do the morally correct thing no matter how inconvenient, neutral is to cling to the logical and pragmatic ignoring morals, and evil is to put your own selfish persuits and amusement over others and their happiness
Selfishness is capitalism. Selfishness that employs a strategy calculated to cause a “sharp downturn” in health as a means of achieving profit and power, that’s evil.
You are forgetting, that the warlord isn’t. a. nice. man!! And he openly told the guy who was willing to inject a billion dollars into his country that he was going to personally pocket 90%+ of the money
So what? Who or what Indinge was does not change the fact that this is an “ends justify the means” assault or murder (depending on whether Indinge survived it). A crime is still a crime regardless of whether or not the victim was a scum-sucking asshole.
Yes, but a lot of people seem to be siding with Indinge
If only they could do this to the ISIS leadership.
nah… they need to do what they did in the book “Voyage From Yesteryear” by James P. Hogan….
And that would be… ?
The problem with ISIS is that the rest of the world is fighting a (corrupt) ideology, that’s why you get so many misguided children running away from home to join up
That’s what they did with the first three leaders of what is now ISIS. It hasn’t exactly improved the situation. >.>
Yeah, by and large, killing the guy on top just makes the next guy to step up more determined to make a name for themselves sadly.
What I’ve been wondering for a while now is… who or what put that X-shaped scar on his face?
Bicycle accident when he was a kid. Kinda embarrassing, but hey, cool scar and if you don’t tell people how you got it, it enhances your pseudo-villian cred.
Kinda like the matching scars I have on my hand, one on the palm, one on the back, perfectly lined up over the bone… And obtained a year apart in unrelated incidents. As long as I don’t mention that last bit, I can win absolutely any “my scar is cooler than yours” contest.
I may be far wrong on this but I am reading into the setup that Deus makes there that Cthillia could not just “look and kill” until a specific set of conditions were in effect: 1) Target must be angry/enraged 2) Must be actively trying to kill (even ordering counts). To whit, it explains nicely the mixed costume : causes nerds to immediately fit conditions as blue armored arms DO NOT belong with desert head covering and lizard eyes. Maybe another instance of Vehemence based magic?
For a start, Senior ain’t dead, and there is nothing to indicate that Lia’s abilities work under specific conditions
Lia was not the one on the balcony, and she is not the one from the ‘hypothetical villains’ page posted months ago
Settle down Beavis. ;) Okay he might not be dead. Made no connection in my post to figure on balcony. That person was likely casting an illusion of “nobody else is here” on his private security force. Also made no connection to the hypo villains page… Wait, who were you replying too? Is this a misplaced post? It still could be a “look and die, with special conditions attached” power that they deliberately did not use at full strength. And there _is_ nothing to indicate a required specific condition beyond an elaborate setup to enrage a leader of a country –specifically an African Warlord used to getting his own way–in his own palace with plenty of forces handy and no visible stick (right up until they decloaked anyway). So I posited a limiter because otherwise that is a “Max-killer” level power which does not fit the setting.
Why the insults? o_O
My opinion is that what is and is not morale is an absolute, however existence is fluid. Situation A may appear to be identical to situation B but it really is incredibly different. Add to this the fact that our own knowledge and perceptions are uncertain at best and outright wrong at worst.
Thus, while what is and is not morale is absolute, two situations that outwardly appear identical might have numerous details that make the morale decision for each situation entirely opposite and we are likely to be unable to distinguish the proper answer from the incorrect answer.
That said, I also believe that sin requires intent and thus even if you commit an immoral act by accident you yourself are not being immoral.
In practical application to life this pretty much operates the same as “good/evil is gray” but has different foundational beliefs. Of course, since the practice is really what matters, the foundational differences amount to semantics.
It’s that weird class of ideas where the differences are change both everything and nothing.
Believe you mean ‘moral’ not ‘morale’
I do, bah…edit would be nice.
May have been mentioned already, but thus far we haven’t seen (to my knowledge) Cthillia’s lower body. And yes, hoping for exotic, and that he might be naga-esque.
She, Lia is female
Ceded, but I will retain my hope!
Deus is largely self interested bordering on narcissistic, that is what makes him evil. If he were killing the dictator to make the country better out of altruism he would be justified, but he’s not, he’s killing someone who didn’t bow down to him.
Deus could have bought up half the country before showing up to Indinge and been like “hi, my company owns half the water rights and infrastructure here” and essentially forced the king into compliance. He didn’t do that, he wanted to stroke his own ego.
Real leaders, great leaders, inspire instead of manipulate. Manipulation a work short term but are unstable long term and require more and more energy. Inspiring people takes more tenacity and energy, but the results are astounding. The reason people hate those bankers for ruining the economy is because they violated the first rule of leadership, protect the people under you. It’s your job as leader to protect your subordinates, never sacrifice them for yourself.
How could he buy up things that didn’t exist?
Deus didn’t kill Indinge because Senior refused to ‘bow down to him’, he forced him to abdicate because he flatout said he would take 90% of the money Deus was going to inject into the country to improve, basically, everything
Yeah…Deus is evil. Oh, not because of his actions PER SAY, but because he’s clearly someone who believes, firmly, and completely, that everything he’s doing is right. That, all the murders, all the pain, is justified because he did it. That, you can just kill whoever you wish, but as long as the END is good, whatever means you do is correct.
Which is one of the best villians. :)
I also call it Arcturus Mengsk syndrome.
What murders? Who has he killed? What pain has he caused (other than panel seven)?
One word “Decaf”. The OP mentioned the belief that killing can be justified does not mean it is time to bring in a backhoe and dig their yard up looking for bodies. All the murders required does not necessarily mean accomplished. Deus is a sneaky bastard. Lets assume any deaths he has ordered would be perfectly legal in the situation that required them: Paid volunteers. Expendable assets. Trespassers and would be assassins (against him).
We have, at the very least, an assault by a super-powered agent acting on his command. There is no legal justification for this assault. Inducing a heart-attack (that’s very clearly implied by the art) is no laughing matter. Even if it’s not immediately fatal, it will easily shave years off Indinge’s projected lifespan.
So trying to claim that he’s always acting within the letter of the law is disingenuous, at best. Rather, he’s good enough in some situations to not get caught when he breaks the law.
Don’t drink coffee, any coffee, so don’t know why you are telling me to ‘calm down’
We have had zero indication before this that he has even hurt anyone else, let alone that he is a mass-murderer (justified or not)
Speculating on your own opinions towards someone is just stupid, specially when there is nothing to back it up with
Sorry it seem I am a little too.fast to judge.
This is the original. Strangely, i like the ad more.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oHWvFrpocY
I should say, palace guards are utterly incompetent.
They should not be yelling, they should have opened fire the moment something unaccounted came in sight.
I don’t know if anyone else mentioned it but what’s with the guard’s right hand in the last panel?
White gloves. Part of their ‘dress uniform’, I would infer.
Quoting the author: “Robbing the CEO of his bonus would be easier to justify, and possibly more ethical…”
I’m not sure there is any situation that makes Robbing anyone of anything legally obtained ethical.
Laws for unethical behaviors largely already exist. (Murder? Check. Theft? check. Destruction of property? check…). Theft is by many considered to be unethical, and extra-legal in any event. If he did something illegal to earn the bonus? Send him to jail and seize the bonus as belonging to a crime.
So… Do you rob from the CEO because he got a bonus? Many of these guys work 60, 80 hour weeks, spend many hours every week in transit, make business decisions at all hours of the day, things quite a few other people won’t do. They also have skill sets not universal to everyone, and have and maintain connections for making business deals that many people lack.
Their being well compensated for these is not a crime, and I see punishing anyone simply for them having or obtaining wealth by legal and moral means is being immoral.
As for Deus: so he hedged the market and came out on top. Everyone does that in one way or another. EVERYONE. Even the bum on the corner begging for change is doing it. If he merely foresaw the market dropping and profited from it, no big deal- he gambled his money, and won. Some play the ponies. Others like cards. Business is just a different sort of gamble. Where I see it as immoral is if he caused the market dive that he profited from – destroying others wealth, whether for personal gain or not, is hardly ethical.
Note the wording of the sentence you’re taking apart. “Easier to justify” does not mean that it is justifiable nor does “more ethical” mean that an action is actually ethical
“Easier to justify” requires that it be justifiable, and “more ethical” implies that there is some ethical basis.
Theft is not justifyable and it is not ethical. Period.
Not related to this comic but to one of our regular commentators, this earthshaking news is just in:
https://acidsquirrel.com/post/89849
Deus is offering this man money to build roads, hospitals, schools, etc., while the king just wants money for his war effort (see previous comic). Now he’s threatening to have Deus shot. Just who’s the bad person here?
xanthos. muthafucking xanathos he maybe
I just noticed that the armor on Deus’ hit squad has been infected with a bad case of ‘unmoving plaid’.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnmovingPlaid