Grrl Power #363 – Where are they now?
Opal could try opening up a very small portal to slowly equalize the pressure or communicate with a cohort, but of course her cell is closely monitored, and the time it would take for her to decompress is multiples of hours, and they’re not going to let on how many atmospheres she’s experiencing at the moment.
Pressurizing a cell effectively negates several problem powers. Teleportation and portals, as well as phasing. It probably introduces a bunch of other complications, but in a world without alien or magic “Power-B-Gone” tech, or some peculiar substance like vibranium that phasers can’t penetrate (not Star Trek phasers… you know what I mean) you have to start getting creative. Of course there’s the induced coma, but as far as I’m aware there are significant risks to keeping someone in a state like that for an extended period of time. To the best of my knowledge, people can live in a high pressure environment indefinitely, it’s the decompression that’s the dangerous bit. Beyond that I’m not sure how else to incarcerate someone to whom physical barriers are meaningless. Maybe a poison that requires regular antidotes? A shock collar that activates as soon as their powers do is super risky because it would have to incapacitate them before their powers carried them beyond the effectiveness of the collar, and that assumes you can create tech that can determine when a power has been activated and doesn’t knock them on their ass every time they sneeze.
People don’t get to chose their names, and most parents don’t name their children by factoring in the possibility that they will one day become a crime lord, supervillain, or vampire lord, and will therefore need a threatening sounding name. That said there’s probably not a lot of mob bosses naming their first sons Mortimer.
I like the name Kevin for Vehemence because as names go, it’s humorously non-threatening. Apologies to any readers named Kevin who are looking to dominate the MMA world or become despotic dictators or anything. The most intimidating Kevin I can think of right off the bat is Kevin Spacey just because he can play some pretty intense roles, but really if you say Kevin to me the first place I go is Kevin Smith. After that there’s Bacon, Costner, Hart… uh, Nealon, Klein, Pollak… beyond that I’d have to start googling. None of whom really strike fear into anyone’s heart. Most major supervillains tend to have cooler or threatening sounding names; Victor (von Doom) Sebastian (Shaw)… also Sebastian the Crab so maybe that one’s a wash, Lex (short for Alexander Luthor). I try to not play that game when I can, or play against the trope like in this case. Deus is the obvious example of me breaking my own rule there.
This only applies to humans who become supervillains and not guys like Brainiac, Darkseid, Ultron, what have you. When it comes down to it, Brainiac and Ultron were given names by their creators probably with the intention of making them sound cool. Darkseid, well, we pretty much have to take his word that that’s his real name. I mean he might have been born Kevin McGeoghegan, but anyone who questions his current moniker get the Omega Beam express.
Here’s the link to the new comments highlighter for chrome, and the GitHub link which you can use to install on FireFox via Greasemonkey.
SuperheroThey're super, thanks for asking!
Meatspace ComicSeriously these are awesome. Check 'em out!
Not UpdatingNo longer updating or only updates sporadically, but definitely worth reading.
SeriouslySeriously you guys. If you like Grrl Power the check these out.
"Mature"Mature subject matter and occasionally something explicit but usually safe. Can't guarantee the ads are safe though.
Dongs Ahoy!Full frontal and backal. Lots of skin, sex on some or all pages, explicit or otherwise.
We need to do that for everybody I’ve never seen anybody be so happy to be in jail
can’t, costs money, prisons are about making money not spending it. Sides, angry violent prisoners suffering from prison induced ptsd are far more likely to reoffend, thus making the prisons owners even more money to contain them.
You just described about 90% of all prisoners that get released back into society in this wonderful country.
And about half of them, who were imprisoned for nothing violent on their own part, have to become violent just to survive while they’re in there…
How the hell does a prison make money?
O right, private companies. My bad, I was thinking about Europe
Well, first they get paid to house, clothe, feed, lock down the prisoner and provide medical care to same — pretty much in order from cheapest to most expensive, and doing any of that for a year can get fairly expensive.
Then there’s the fact that slave labor is illegal in the US unless it’s convicted criminals getting enslaved as a condition of their imprisonment. Granted, 40 guys chained together are not exactly skilled labor or trusted around tools, but even a chain gang has its uses. Many prisons have factories within their walls, where prisoners work to make all kinda of things for 3rd world sweatshop pay scales and the goods are sold with the profits going to the prison owner.
And all of that is simply legal business for a prison — if the guards and warden want to be corrupt, it can get even worse. For example, in an environment where prisoners can be held incommunicado and a single Facebook post telling your family you’re still alive can result in multiple years added to your sentence, just imagine being the guy a corrupt warden thinks his factory can’t survive without.
Now what I want ot see is Opal turn out to have clastraphobia. Maybe have some back history where she had abuse/trauma from being imprisoned. If her manifestation of her powers are based on her personality, then SOMETHING made her want to become someone who could teleport.
That being the case, I wonder how they would deal with it if after ten minutes or so she started freaking out, muttering to herself that she can’t stand it, and then start asking, “Will the death be quick? Because I can’t take five more minutes in here!”
If they don’t sedate her quickly and she just abruptly decides, “I’d rather die then be trapped here one more second!” I can see her killing herself.
And before you say claustrophobia is about small spaces. I had a client with a large personal room. If you closed the door, he flew into a panic. There had to be at least one open archway or door in any room he was in or he’d kill you to get out. And once he flipped out, he’d keep going until he was outside. We eventually just wound up removing his door entirely and putting up one of those bead curtains.
If she’s claustraphobic and can’t keep it under control. She’s dead, in so much that she’d rather die then stay trapped there.
Which would be an interesting side plot as they deal with the fall out.
Although, as a side note, the way to get out would be to get a air tank for SCUBA diving (I dunno if she can retrieve objects.) then open up a small portal in the sea. Slide the portal down and down until water starts to leak back into the room through the portal. That means the water pressure on the other side is more then the room. Open portal wide. Put on air mask. Drop into it. Swim up very slowly. When the air runs out, teleport to death valley. It’s below sea level and the best you are going to get.
Note: don’t make it a vertical portal, but a horizontal one while you try to figure out the equilibrium.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they just plain lied about the pressurization thing.
If they didn’t lie about the pressurization then they are opening themselves up for some pretty danged massive wrongful death cases when – not if – something goes wrong.
Not a wrongful death, as she was issued a warning
Setting deadly traps for people is illegal federally and in most states. Even if you warn them and have adequate signage, it’s still worth 5-15 in prison on top of the usual penalties for premeditated murder.
Kevin’s cell is equally problematic — unless the world Arc exists in is drastically different from ours in how laws against illegal drugs operate, Kevin will have one hell of a damages claim against Arc-Aegis, since cannabis is a Schedule IV drug. Schedule IV means it has no legal uses, has no medicinal uses, and causes irreparable harm to anyone exposed. Whether that’s factually true or not is irrelevant, since the government operates on laws not objective facts.
There is no government exemption to having to obey the law. In fact, the penalties are usually higher for a government official who does so — providing the people in charge of prosecuting such things are not corrupt.
If Arc is a military or military-controlled organization this brings them into the territory of illegal orders. Giving, passing on or obeying an illegal order can result in a dishonorable discharge at a minimum, possibly time in prison as well. Even if you believe an order is illegal and later it proves not to be, obeying it at the time you believe it to be illegal is grounds for dishonorable discharge.
AH, but prisons, jails, and other legal confinements *are* allowed to use lethal force to enforce confinement. Which is what this is, lethally enforced confinement, not a booby trap.
+1
Um, pretty sure the government is exempt on some level from obeying the law.
At least, for EPA caused spills I’ve yet to see any penalties levied.
There is a distinction between how laws are written and how they are enforced.
With proper design, built in backup systems, and no access to the dumbass public a good engineer can make a system designed to do something like maintain an overpressure that will not fail. It’s when you let unqualified people mess with things that situations go pear-shaped. ARCHON is paying for the best people so I doubt someone’s gonna get drunk on duty or anything stupid like that.
Until Murphy decides to f@ck you in the @$$.
I just got an image of Robocop… XD
Oh man, that has got to hurt!
*arse puckers in sympathy*
And now I have the Robocop/Terminator ERB running through my head
“FREEZE!
I suggest you use
your right to
remain Silent.
Before I show
your gobot ass
some Detroit Violence”
Pressurization is something she would have had to have dealt with on any long distance ports, not just with altitude but high/low pressure systems.
There’s a difference between barometric pressure change at the planetary surface and the equivalent of deep water. She would likely learn to take a steep climb in stages rather than teleport to the top of a mountain so her ears could pop. In high overpressure though the gasses she’s breathing are compressed and will filter into her blood and body tissues. The sudden release of pressure causes them to expand and come out of the tissues like carbonation in soda. It can cause gas bubbles in the blood that can clog arteries and cause a heart attack or brain embalism and are quite painful besides. If they put her under the right pressure she would need HOURS of decompression to safely exit and since the pumps would keep working harder and harder to maintain the overpressure chances are good they’d notice any attempt to equalize pressure on her part.
At the safe limit for a human (And bets are that Archon would likely use that) the decompression time can end up in days. Which is quite a bit of waiting and focus to equalize.
They lied about the “agonizing” part. Look up “Byford Dolphin accident”. Very clever way to trap a teleporter, Dave!
“Agonizing” or “painless instant death” – which would depend on the actual pressure involved.
Might opt to tell the prisoner ‘instant painful death’ and use pressures that give ‘instant painful torture, with lingering death if they don’t teleport back inside about a minute’
Just install an interior wall with a a fake open window and a back-lit duratrans 4 feet behind it. It’s how TV studios have sets with windows with nice views. It’s just a giant photo printed on vinyl with lights behind it. Done well it looks good even in real life.
that would make for an interesting plot twist, however that would also require focusing on her for at least 1 page, to show the panic setting in, & potentially the most-likely-fatal outcome too…
Many many small holes, all releasing pressure slowly, till it equalizes, then she can pop out. But I doubt she has the control over her powers that much…
Time it would take would alert ARC. Not to mention the cell itself would probably add more pressure to compensate until a team gets to her. If portals are her only power, she’s fucked.
Well… except if she can portal out the little gas globules in her blood-stream that would expand and painfully kill her before she makes the jump. But that sort of power-control does seem ridiculous, even in this setting.
So Arc notices she’s draining the pressure and does what exactly?
Rush in to stop her? A portal in front of the door means anyone trying gets a vacation to Cancun if she’s nice about it, and 100,000 feet straight up if she’s not. Same goes for any weapons turrets, just park a portal in front of the barrel and aim the exit somewhere expensive.
That assumes that she’s not flat out immune to pressure changes .
And she might be able to make trees tap-dance. But there is no point in taking precautions against something that they have no indication that she can do. Especially when her power set would not even imply it as a required secondary ability.
Mix sedatives into her air supply. That would knock her out, before she could safely de-pressurise.* If Opal used a portal to block the sedatives from coming, she is also blocking her air. Thus would rapidly start to suffer from carbon dioxide poisoning. Provided her cell is as small as it appears above, she would likely still succumb to that, and fall unconscious, before she managed to de-pressurise.
They can keep her sedated until the pressure has been re-set to an acceptable level. And tell her if she does it again, she will be given a spanking and have to go to bed without supper. Or whatever penalties attempting to escape prison might be in that jurisdiction.
* If the pressure is high it could take a day for her to do that without risking the bends.
Sorry, I aim for wryly amusing, but think I came off more sarky, on that occasion. Plus, although we have no reason to believe Opal has pressure immunity, Harem does have the ability to increase her ‘general toughness’. Which would likely equate to being more robust than normal humans, in withstanding such environmental and biological problems.
Come collect your Scooby burger!
Bob, I don’t think Opal is important enough of a character at this point to drag this out. Besides, this is a web comic, not suicide theater. I’m sure Dave can get very gruesome under the right circumstances, but just for the lols?
An air tank for SCUBA diving would kill her if they have her on a high enough pressure to cause nitrogen poisoning or even oxygen poisoning, in which case her cell contains a special gas mix that is nitrogen free and possibly lower-than-normal oxygen, with the nitrogen partially or completely replaced by hydrogen because helium causes high-pressure nervous syndrome. You can use Hydrox at just 4 atm, and if she’s going to get a quick death, her cell is at least 9 atm.
If Opal got desperate enough she could threaten to open a tiny portal to a crowded sea-level area, the air rushing out could hurt some people.
Open a tiny portal into someone’s heart. Next person who stares at her like an animal at a zoo.
Finely controlled portals are ridiculously deadly, but I doubt she’s that strong – otherwise she could have easily taken out the entire team via internal portals.
If she could do that she’d have done alot more during the fight than logistics and communication.
It’s funny how people keep making up extreme versions of someone’s power, dispite there being zero indication of that person being anywhere near that strong
Well just because she didn’t murder all the heroes doesn’t mean she can’t. That said “not inside solid objects” is a common limit on portals.
It’s not extreme at all. It’s just basic physics plus a little imagination.
Portals are one of the most reality breaking, overkill powers in any comic book. You’re assuming that because she didn’t choose to kill people during the brawl that she is incapable of it. You’re assuming that she has no imagination — ever considered that her commander might have no imagination, and she was under orders to carry out specific duties?
A portal maker with interplanetary range and enough control to wrap one around their body like a force field is a decent match for SUPERMAN. The only thing that would keep Arc alive against something like that would be someone who dislikes killing.
It’s true that Opal might not be that strong, except we’ve seen that she IS that strong. Teleporting an entire company worth of troops, all at the same time, while not transporting the enemies they’re intermixed with, to a great enough distance that it breaks contact with Arc-Swat?
We’ve seen plenty of evidence that Opal is strong enough to be a major threat. Nobody needs to make up extreme power levels, since we’ve already seen evidence she has those. The fact that she didn’t swat Maxima like a fly could be anything from a lack of imagination on her part to refusing to kill people to her commander being a tactical idiot. But a lack of power is not one of her problems.
Balance dictates that she won’t be able to just kill people with her thoughts. Remember this IS still a comic
Even if she had that level.
1) she’d have to know what a heart truly looks like. I’m picturing a science class staring in awe and confusion as a portal opens up on a student’s drawing of what they think is a heart, and the homework/books/desk being sucked into it. Followed by “Oops” right before the portal closes again.
2) Doesn’t she have to see where the portal goes first? Hard to open one up in a heart if she’s not looking inside the chest of the person to see that specific heart.
Yea, most super powers can kill if you can direct them at internal organs, especially the brain. Even trivial powers that only affect tiny amounts of matter or energy can do that. So any settings, which do not want stories to be limited to ‘whoever attacks first wins’, will have a mechanism to prevent that.
Point (2) serves very well for doing that. And there might be one or more back ups assumed, to prevent the easy means of bypassing that from being used. For instance if a super has infra-red goggles on, they could see the brain, via it’s thermal image, and target via that.
So table top games will typically just state that powers simply do not work inside another being. If they have the power to affect the whole body, then no problem. But they cannot isolate an interior part, unless a specific power over-rides the general rule.
The same would go for written stories, such as this. There is no need for the author to explicitly state it at any point. But, once we see the supers practising their powers, we will be able to infer it easily enough. The military would have long since figured out the tactical advantages of such attacks, if they were possible. That would not be something that only a gamer would realise.
I doubt such a thing would do much more than a strong breeze
I was thinking pinhole sized. 1 atmosphere (14psi) through a 1/10th square inch hole is 140 pounds of pressure. It only takes 5 to 10 to push something that size through skin.
No it’s not. It’s 1.4 pounds.
Oh right, the air isn’t being forced through that hole so the pressure doesn’t go up. My bad.
Are–Are they keeping Vehemence high? Is that what the fumes are? Are they pumping marijuana smoke into the room?
Yep, they got Kevin stoned out of his mind :P. He’s higher than a kite XD
I LOVE the look on his face too
The problem is that there is no government exemption to the Controlled Substances Act, particularly with regards to Schedule IV drugs like cannabis. Whoever thought that up has the legal status of a drug lord if it ever comes to light.
Classifying the fact that a crime was committed is the sort of illegal order soldiers are supposed to resist.
The real problem is that you are assigning current rl law to a webcomic about a world where superheroes exist and are capable of triggering wars with their presence. Exceptions can be made for extraordinary circumstances. And keeping him high on weed is a far less inhumane treatment than a chemical coma which has multiple issues of its own.
Vehemence’s incarceration gave me a legitimate laugh. That doesn’t happen often. Well done.
I didn’t immediately notice the t shirt :)
How many are in stock?
I want one
I thought prison was supposed to be a punishment…
Homeless people that cant go to homeless shelters because of their past actions at them will get themselves arrested for wintertime.
Prison is supposed to rehabilitate and [i]keep the public safe[/i], too.
Punishing Vehemence makes him more powerful and, therefore, a threat to the public. So they focus on rehabilitation and keeping him as docile as possible.
I agree.
________________________________________________________________
I am sure you will have deduced it, but there is no harm in mentioning this. The square brackets [ ] and angled brackets < > are not interchangeable, for tags, on this website. So your italics should have used the angled ones. The only one which uses the square ones is the spoiler tag.
*blinks*
Pussy cat? Do I see a green haired pussy cat?
*sniffing suspiciously*
The actual goal is rehabilitation, and preventing relaps after release.
Nothing but punishment like the USA prison system (and many thrid world country’s prison systems) only turns minor criminals into bigger criminals
So many people would go to prison if the only way to contain them was keep them high…..
Prison isn’t just about punishment, it can also be about keeping someone from doing more harm, and when that is the priority above all other considerations you do what ya gotta do. @screwball Might be artistic license for laughing gas, or both…
Actually prison IS about punishment :) Being in prison is, by its very nature, punishment for a crime.
There are generally four reasons for the punishment of prison:
1) Deterrence – to discourage others from committing similar crimes; to discourage the offender from future crimes after he or she is released
2) Rehabilitation – to be able to eventually reintegrate a person into society by somehow teaching the convict the error of his or her ways through his or her sentence
3) Incapacitation – to remove the offender’s capacity to offend again by locking them up; to protect society or individual(s) from a dangerous offender
4) Retribution – revenge on behalf of the victim and society in general; an expression of society’s outrage at the offender’s crime
All of these reasons, though, are examples of why the offender is being punished.
For anyone with any experience with the current legal system, they would know that the order of preference by society goes like this:
1.) reason 4
2.) reason 3
3.) reason 1
4:) reason….. Hell, everyone knows that reason 2 is just an excuse that people tell themselves to feel better for taking someone else’s rights away tossing them in a cage and treating them like they’re an animal.
‘Taking away someone else’s rights away’? Who gave them the rights to take someone else’s property or life? If they don’t want to abide by the rules and laws of society, then they are animals
Not only does that reasoning not apply to crimes that are nonviolent or nonproperty based, which still carry jail sentences in plenty of cases, it also assumes that the person does not consider the possible pros, such as not starving, dying or letting loved ones die, of utilizing options outside the law.
Actually, non-violent crimes are the ones most likely to get probation or reduced sentences. They also tend to have the lightest sentences. You need some form of punishment for people who break the law. The concept of the stick is necessary in ‘carrot and stick’ reasoning.
A person who is guilty of murder is going to have a much longer jail sentence than someone who is guilty of …. I don’t know…. a very non-violent crime like pirating bootleg videos. Not to mentin that most crimes that carry jailtime are, if not violent, at least harmful to innocent people. Stealing a car might not be a violent crime necessarily, but ask the person who’s car has been stolen if it has horribly affected their life.
Look, I’m an attorney (not a criminal attorney, but I do understand criminal law – I did have to pass the bar in two states after all) so yes… I’d say I probably have a fair deal more experience with the current legal system than many people on the forum. And I have to agree with Guesticus (maybe not calling prisoners all animals, but Cheshire and Tsapki do seem to be ignoring the victim of the crimes committed – whether violent or not – when lamenting prisoners not having the same rights as free innocent civilians).
You don’t think non-violent offenders should be in jail? Do you think Kenneth Lay or Bernie Madoff should not be in jail just because their crimes did not actually kill or physically injure someone? They just… bilked and defrauded hundreds or thousands of people out of their life savings and cost thousands of jobs. Yeah – I think they need to be in jail. Do they need to be in jail as much as some guy who beat his wife to death? Yeah. They need to be in jail too. How about the 20 year old who stole the car of a working single parent who needs the car to get to work? Yeah. Send that 20 year old to jail. How about the ass-hat who mugged me on the New York City train by grabbing my iphone out of my hands? Yep – needs to be in jail.
They can be in jail for different periods of time, for the different severity of their crimes as judged by civilized society, but they don’t deserve a pass.
(I know it’s weird, one second I’m defending Opal and saying it’s cruel and unusual punishment what they’re doing to her, the next I’m saying to keep people in jail and that’s fine. The difference is the latter are people who have been convicted already).
I think this is the better spot for me to reply, Pander Esq., given that I too will seem to be speaking at odds with my normal opinion that we can solve most legal super issues with existing laws. But that will only be the initial impression. Note that I am not addressing mens rea here, as that is an issue to be argued in court. What interests me is the contention you have made that Opal’s present detention is unjust.
Let me start with a normal criminal situation, to give an analogy. A liquor store armed robbery. Although the suspect is armed, she does not appear to be intent on killing at the present moment. Despite the fact that her companions have attempted such.
She does however resist arrest, assaulting a police officer, in the process, and then attempts to evade justice. One of the police manages to taser her. We shall ignore Vehemence’s role completely, in this analogy, as that is an unnecessary complication, given that we are not dealing with the mens rea issue here.
I hope you agree that, up until this point the analogy is a fair one to Opals, up to and including, when she was sedated?
It is at this moment though, when she wakes up from the sedative/recovers from the taser, where the analogy breaks down. And it then becomes vital to factor in something which will very often cause problems in comparing super heroes to normals.
In the analogy she would no longer be armed. The police can take her gun away, and put handcuffs on her.
Opal’s super power cannot be taken away from her. She is armed right now. With a power that could kill anybody. Even Maxima would likely not survive if Opal opened a portal into the sun. Nor Opal herself, but it proves my point, especially if she chose to be suicidal.
Certainly Opal (who, as we know, gathered people from around the country) could port victims into the ocean, or high into the sky, or into a swamp. Whatever means of execution she felt to be most effective.
Not that we should assume that is her intent. But the fact she is armed, and with a very powerful weapon, is indisputable.
Which means we cannot compare it to any normal arrest of a criminal suspect. All of those can have their weapon taken away.
Then there is the flight risk. Her analogy counterpart can be handcuffed, to the policewoman, or their patrol vehicle, as may be necessary. This is ineffective versus a teleporter or portal user.
Now reconsider the situations in a basic principles perspective. Opal has been returned to a state of equilibrium, as close as is possible, to that of the handcuffed robber. Both have had their liberty deprived, by being legally restrained. In a manner that is effective, to their circumstances.
Both restraints have some risk of death, due to misadventure. We know that being handcuffed can result in prisoners dying from medical complications, such as heart attacks or even directly by being unable to steady themselves from falling.
Opal’s counterpart might be considered to be an extremely high flight risk and is remanded to a maximum security prison, with electrified fences (if such is illegal, let us substitute razor wire topped fences instead). On arrival the inmates are warned that attempting to scale the fence carries an intrinsic risk of death, from that. Or we can go with a prison in a desert. Which would be even better, as death would be almost certain, in an escape attempt.
It is worth noting that Opal remains armed.
We now have very close analogies which show that Opal is being treated as similarly to other criminals as is feasible. I think the courts would recognise that the balance between the public interest and the suspects rights are being respected as fairly as is possible under the circumstances.
Although I am sure the court would offer you (as Opal’s virtual lead defender) the opportunity to suggest an alternative means of incarcerating her. Clearly this would need to entail real world technology (Dave managed it, after all), that has been suitably tried tested and could be implemented promptly (pressure chambers tick all the boxes, they are reliable, established technology that has been in use for years).
“What interests me is the contention you have made that Opal’s present detention is unjust.”
Well… since she hasnt even been ‘arrested’ let alone charged, it /is/ unjust imprisonment to go to those extremes to keep her there. It’s as if you are being held for shoplifting by a store, and they keep you in a cage with a machine gun trained on you if you approach the door, and say ‘if you attempt to pick the lock, you will be riddled with bullets.’
It’s a different level of incarceration than if she was actually arrested, which allows for a 48 hour period of detainment. And even then, the detainment can’t involve threats against their life. That crosses into ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ territory, even if there’s something in the Archon statute to allow it. It’s an untested law, and it would be pretty easy to invalidate the law given Opals particular circumstances – because of Vehemence. If not for Vehemence’s possible influence on Opal, and Archon calling it a ‘debriefing’ instead of an arrest type of detainment, it would be a good way to test the validity of the law.
“Let me start with a normal criminal situation, to give an analogy. A liquor store armed robbery. Although the suspect is armed, she does not appear to be intent on killing at the present moment. Despite the fact that her companions have attempted such.”
1) She’s not actually armed. The portals aren’t offensive weapons as far as they’ve been displayed capability-wise.
2) Her companions, and her, don’t have the mens rea to even commit a crime, because they’re arguably under the influence of Vehemence. Even based on Vehemence’s own statements, let alone his later actions and the testimony of other ‘companions.’ It’s a stretch to claim that Vehemence only used his aura on certain people, and not others (aside from Death Toll, who may simply be immune), and you have to assume that he used it on all of them, given Vehemence’s statements and actions during the fight.
“She does however resist arrest,”
No mens rea – it might have just been considered rude to let herself get arrested, and she might be the type to not back down but might have backed down if not for her natural inclinations being enhanced by Vehemence’s aura. Of all the companions, only Barberian seemed capable of backing down, and he might simply be naturally meek-minded, so there isnt much violence to augment on him (as a hairdresser- no offense to any violent hairdressers out there).
“assaulting a police officer,”
Again, see what I said about mens rea and Vehemence influence. Not to mention she technically did NOT assault a police officer. Stalwart did. What she did was self defense against Stalwart’s attempt to attack her.
“One of the police manages to taser her. We shall ignore Vehemence’s role completely, in this analogy, as that is an unnecessary complication, given that we are not dealing with the mens rea issue here.”
You can’t ignore the mens rea issue. It’s a primary issue here. The fact that Vehemence was involved is why Archon is calling it a debriefing instead of an arrest, let alone a charge. If NOT for Vehemence’s influence, Archon would have already arrested AND charged her, and then they’d be justified in what they’re doing. They didn’t, so they can’t. It’s a simple legal issue like a shoplifter who is locked in an office with a gun held on her for suspected shoplifting before the police even bring her to jail. It’s already been shown in real life that even holding someone for as little as two hours can make the person holding the suspected shoplifter who has not yet been arrested or charged subject to the tort of false imprisonment.
“I hope you agree that, up until this point the analogy is a fair one to Opals, up to and including, when she was sedated?”
Yes, I agree that her being sedated IS fair. Threats of death later on, after there’s no provable danger from her, is not.
“Opal’s super power cannot be taken away from her.”
Based on Archon’s own charter, superpowers are not illegal to have.
“She is armed right now.”
She is technically not armed any more than you’re armed if you’re holding a phone. Her portals have not been shown to be capable of killing anyone.
“With a power that could kill anybody.”
She has not been shown to be capable of using her power to kill.
“Even Maxima would likely not survive if Opal opened a portal into the sun.”
She had not been shown to be capable of opening a portal into the sun, or she would have done so while under Vehemence’s influence if it was a way to kill Maxima. Not to mention that sort of thing would also kill Opal, since solar radiation and heat would flow back through the portal and kill her in about 2 seconds since the solar flares and solar winds would have bypassed the Earth’s magnetic field.
“Nor Opal herself, but it proves my point, especially if she chose to be suicidal.”
There is no proof whatsoever that she is suicidal. You can not use an unfounded guess as a reason to do something unconstitutional.
“Certainly Opal (who, as we know, gathered people from around the country) could port victims into the ocean,”
This is NOT a certainty, as she did not do such a thing.
“or high into the sky,”
This is NOT a certainty, as she did not do such a thing.
“or into a swamp.”
This is NOT a certainty, as she did not do such a thing. I’m explaining what a lawyer would say, and that lawyer would be correct in his or her argument to a judge.
“Whatever means of execution she felt to be most effective.”
She did not, during the entire fight, use her powers in any sort of lethal way, even during the violence aura.
“Not that we should assume that is her intent. But the fact she is armed, and with a very powerful weapon, is indisputable.”
It’s actually extremely disputable, based on the fact that she did not use her power (not a weapon) in that fashion, even during the violence aura.
“Which means we cannot compare it to any normal arrest of a criminal suspect. All of those can have their weapon taken away.”
She has not yet been arrested, let alone charged. She’s just being ‘debriefed’ since otherwise she’d be able to ask to either be charged or be let go or have a lawyer, who would say the same thing. In which case you can’t use lethal means to keep her held.
“Then there is the flight risk.”
You can not be a flight risk if you are not yet arrested. In fact you are free to leave at any time until they do arrest you, at which point they have 48 hours to charge you. They didnt arrest her, because of the whole Vehemence influence/lack of mens rea problem.
“Her analogy counterpart can be handcuffed, to the policewoman, or their patrol vehicle, as may be necessary.”
Not for more than two hours, she can’t. They would have been better off keeping her sedated, and doing a formal arrest and charge her if they were going to put her in the cell. At any time, if a person was handcuffed WITHOUT being arrested, they can ask to either have the handcuffs removed or they can be actually arrested. Most of the time, the police WILL just arrest them at that point, then take off the handcuffs if they decide not to charge her. They did not do this in Opal’s case – again, because of the Vehemence problem.
“This is ineffective versus a teleporter or portal user.”
It is a moot point, as she was only being debriefed, not arrested. If she did use her portals to flee, then at least they’d have a reason to arrest, if not charge.
“Now reconsider the situations in a basic principles perspective. Opal has been returned to a state of equilibrium, as close as is possible, to that of the handcuffed robber.”
No she has not been. You’ve ignored the mens rea problem (the Vehemenece influence), and that Archon decided to only ‘debrief’ but not arrest the suspects.
“Both have had their liberty deprived, by being legally restrained.”
When being debriefed, you arent having your liberty deprived. You’re actually allowed to demand to either be released immediately OR be arrested.
“In a manner that is effective, to their circumstances.”
That’s not how it works for debriefings. When I was mugged, I was debriefed by the police. Debriefing is different than arresting or charging.
“Both restraints have some risk of death, due to misadventure. We know that being handcuffed can result in prisoners dying from medical complications, such as heart attacks or even directly by being unable to steady themselves from falling.”
This is a stretch, actually, especially if you’re using what happened in the Freddy Gray case – which the ADA is almost definitely going to lose on if not for the … less than legal mentality of how the case is being handled. I’m speaking as a lawyer, not with any sort of political bent on that case btw. Also there’s a massive difference between the minor risk of having a heart attack or falling while handcuffed vs having someone threaten explosive decompression or machine guns or something that’s definitely lethal. And again – she’s being debriefed, NOT arrested. She shouldnt even have handcuffs on if she’s just being debriefed.
“Opal’s counterpart might be considered to be an extremely high flight risk and is remanded to a maximum security prison, with electrified fences (if such is illegal, let us substitute razor wire topped fences instead).”
You can’t put someone who’s just being debriefed, or even someone who’s being arrested WITHOUT being charged, in a maximum security prison with electrified fences. Or razor fences. Or any prison at all. At best you can put them in a holding cell in lockup for 48 hours AFTER you arrest them, but before you charge them. Opal is being debriefed, so she can’t be put in a holding cell even, let alone prison.
“On arrival the inmates are warned that attempting to scale the fence carries an intrinsic risk of death, from that. Or we can go with a prison in a desert. Which would be even better, as death would be almost certain, in an escape attempt.”
Again, all of this is overkill. She’s being debriefed, and even if she was being arrested, she hasnt been charged yet – the death threat aspect of the imprisonment before charging would be overkill. If she escapes, at least they have a definite charge the next time.
“It is worth noting that Opal remains armed.”
It is worth noting that she’s not armed. That superpowers are not illegal based on Archon’s own law and press conference from that same day. That her powers have NOT been used in any sort of lethal capacity at all – only as transport and defensively to redirect attacks directed at her.
“We now have very close analogies which show that Opal is being treated as similarly to other criminals as is feasible.”
No, we haven’t. In fact, I’ve shown that Opal is not being treated in any way in a feasable manner to a non-super character.
“I think the courts would recognise that the balance between the public interest and the suspects rights are being respected as fairly as is possible under the circumstances.”
The public interest would need to take into effect that Opal is arguably a victim of Vehemence, not a menace to the public. They could have checked to see if she had any outstanding warrants while she was unconscious in order to formally arrest or charge her, then they could just dismiss the charges – which they have not done based on the statements in the cell and Maxima’s previous statements about ‘debriefing.’ It was definitely not done ‘as fairly as possible’ as I’ve already shown in other arguments in this response.
“Although I am sure the court would offer you (as Opal’s virtual lead defender) the opportunity to suggest an alternative means of incarcerating her.”
Any lawyer worth his or her salt would simply say ‘either arrest her and charge her, or let her go, then would file civil charges against Archon for false imprisonment during the time she was being held under a death threat BEFORE being arrested or charged, and would claim that Archon was aware of a lack of mens rea (which they ARE aware of, especially Arianna) and did it anyway.
Thank you :)
Opal HAS been arrested. The ones who are being debriefed are people like Boilerplate, and are not in a cell–and as for Vehemence’s influence, he just makes people fight. Opal attempted to flee with all of ‘red team’, proving that she was acting of her own free will at the time that she resisted arrest–fleeing is not fighting, and is resisting arrest. Note that Opal’s case is being reviewed–this is further evidence that she has been arrested, since they use the term ‘case’. It also implies that she has been charged.
“she does however resist arrest”
she attempted to portal everyone away from from the fight, a non-violent act of resisting arrest, showing that at that particular point, she was not under the influence of Vehemence
“assaulting a police officer”
There is no such thing as self-defense when a police officer is attempting to arrest you. It’s called resisting arrest and assault on a police officer–or in this case, assault on a federal agent.
“one of the police manages to taser her…”
and your response, “Archon would have already arrested AND charged her, and then they’d be justified in what they’re doing.”
The people being debriefed are not in a cell. Opal has been judged to have resisted arrest while not under the influence of Vehemence, arrested, and probably charged with resisting arrest. Further charges are probably pending, but resisting arrest can be proven to have been committed of her own free will.
She has been arrested, she has probably been charged, and she has mens rea. Your arguments are invalid.
Bottom line: Opal is not being debriefed. Opal has been arrested.
MOST of ‘red team’ is being debriefed. Vehemence and Opal, and in all likelihood Vekter and Death Toll, have been arrested and (probably) charged with resisting arrest, with possible further charges pending review of their case.
Really. Please show me where she’s been arrested. Please show me a single place where they said she was arrested. Where is her attorney btw? Please show me a SINGLE piece of evidence that she has been arrested, rather than being debriefed like EVERY OTHER SUPER other than Vehemence.
Invalid my butt.
Shen is making a fair comment. We know that things do happen in between the panels. If something is boring, it does not get shown. Going through the details of the arrest process clearly did not inspire any gags, so we moved on to other things.
Something which many folks urge Dave to do more often!
These are super-hero cops. If the correct procedure is to arrest and charge (which I agree is so), then they will have done that.
In fact, not showing the dull details is, in itself a sensible thing to do. The more he shows, the more likely DaveB is to make a procedural error, which would be torn to shreds. Not to mention ruining any knowledgeable person’s sense of disbelief.
He may wish to brush up on such details, for when Sydney gets around to such training (if that part of it appeals to his story, if not that too can be skipped). But it would simply have bogged down the post-combat story interminably, had he done so then.
So I consider it to be that they are being legally held. We have no reason to believe otherwise.
It’s a better assumption to make that, consistent with what both Arianna and Maxima had said in several past strips, they are all being debriefed, not being arrested (except for Vehemence) because the problem of Vehemence’s aura brings up all sorts of legal hurtles, rather than to assume it as all explained in some way that runs COUNTER to what was stated in panel, in order to justify an alternate viewpoint that Shen is making.
Now… if DaveB was to say that it happened in between panels, I’d obviously change my opinion and agree with you, but in the absence of that, I’m sticking with the idea that Opal and Vektor are definitely going free, and they might even try to make a lawsuit. Although Arianna will probably either have it settled out of court, or use some sort of PR strong-arming to ‘influence’ them that it’s more trouble than its worth to sue over it (or keeping them in court forever, while Archon has access to unlimited resources and the people suing do not).
IT doesnt change the fact, though, that AS IT STANDS, they are not being held legally, or at the very best, the Archon statute claims archon has that right, which would be immediately challenged in court as unconstitutional (which they’d likely win).
Note that both Opal and her analogy counterpart are presently being remanded for trial. Neither have been convicted. Both are at severe risk of dying only if they attempt to escape (other than the risk of death by misadventure, something which is common to anyone being held in custody, albeit to varying degrees).
No, they are not being remanded for trial. They are being ‘debriefed.’ They have not yet been arrested, nor charged. She is considered ‘a guest’ – not once has she been arrested in any formal manner. Statements by Maxima specifically stated that, with the exception of Vehemence, they were all being ‘debriefed.’ And a lawyer as capable of Arianna knows the problem that this will cause, and probably is hoping Opal and any others they put in an internment center, with the exception of Vehemence (who is obviously charged or at LEAST arrested, as opposed to debriefed) should not be in there YET. If at all.
considering Opal and her BF’s obvious status as leaders of the whole thing it’s pretty obvious that they would be arrested and charged of “conspiracy to commit murder” and “Assaulting a Federal officer” though you could pretty much also add “Resisting Arrest” “Destruction of private Property” “Attempted Murder” “Vandalism” and probably half a dozen other felonies I can’t thing of right now that they are ATLEASt an accomplice too, if nothing else, the fact that we didn’t see it does not mean it didn’t happen, the fact that they where unconscious at the time of arrest are for all practical reasons irrelevant, as Vehemence made it impossible to arrest them while they where conscious.
“Conspiracy to commit murder”
Actually, she wasnt in a conspiracy to commit murder. Even though the only one who ever intended to commit a murder was Vehemence (of Maxima), by the time he formed that intent, Opal was already unconscious. The fact that she was unconscious at the time that intent was formed by Vehemence means she could not have been in a conspiracy with the intent to murder Maxima, even if you could prove she was not under Vehemence’s influence – which you can not definitively prove. Might be slightly more likely to call her an accessory before the fact, if they’re in a state that allows that charge. Assuming the charged her with anything. Which they havent seemed to have done unless DaveB writes more about that. Plus the fact that Vehemence knocks her out when she tries to have everyone leave via portal means she could NOT have been in a conspiracy to murder, since she was backing out of the crime at that point and any intents formed afterwards, for which she has no way to be in a conspiracy.
“Assaulting a federal officer”
She does not meet the requirements to arrest her for assault. The elements of criminal assault is an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.
It’s easy to argue there was no intent because of the Vehemence problem.
It’s easy to argue that there was no imminence in the apprehension, since the only way she used the portals was defensively to redirect people who were directly attacking her, and to bring the people together at Vehemence’s request in the first place
It’s easy to argue that there was no harmful contact, because there was no harmful contact. At all.
It’s easy to argue there was no harm IN the contact, since the only person even touched by anyone else was Stalwart touching Maxima’s face, and Maxima was neither in apprehension nor harmed. Plus there was no touching by Opal, either directly or through an object which both Opal and Maxima was in contact with via touch.
“Resisting arrest”
Aside from that they didnt place anyone other than Vehemence under arrest, shes not not meet the legal definition for ‘resisting’ either. Not to mention that the same reason the others are not under arrest, you can use to explain why Opal is not under arrest. The only way she would be, based on what they said, is if Opal has outstanding warrants. In which case that would explain why she’s in a cell. Or, possibly, if the Archon act allows them to treat US Citizens as enemy combatants instead of as domestic criminals. But then you wouldnt have ‘resisting arrest’ as a charge because that’s not a charge in the military courts for enemy combatants.
“Destruction of private property.”
She did not destroy any property.
“Attempted murder”
She did not attempt to murder anyone.
“Vandalism”
She did not vandalize anything. Also, in most states, vandalism is a misdemeanor, not a felony.
1. Some of the supers were being debriefed. Others, who had outstanding warrants or criminal records, were being detained. This is clearly stated when Ariana says that those without criminal records or outstanding warrants are being released “on parole”, I believe the legal term would be “on their own recognizance”. Since Opal has not been released, she must have either a criminal record or outstanding warrants.
2. You have a strange idea of what self defense is. In the United States, you cannot resist or flee arrest and attack a law enforcement officer who tries to stop you and get off with a self defense plea. You will be charged with assaulting a law enforcement officer and resisting arrest, and you will be incarcerated until trial. No matter what you believe about whether or not it was self defense, that is how United States law works.
3.In the comics they stated that Opal known already to Arc-Light, along with Vector, which coupled with the fact that Opal is imprisoned means they have criminal records, possibly outstanding warrants.
4. Maxima said that there would be no criminal charges filed “IF there is no evidence of collusion.” Considering Vekter and Opal were directing the fight up until Vehemence stepped in, and they tried to flee before Vehemence stopped them, the mind control defense has a very poor chance of working, since those who were shown to be under Vehemence’s influence gave no thought to retreat, only to attack. If they were under the influence of his aura during the time of attack, they wouldn’t have been able to try to teleport everyone out. Even if he used his aura to convince them attacking Archon was a good idea, they still carried it out while not under the influence of the aura.
5. Vehemence specifically states “A few phone calls and a chick that makes portals, and here we are. I even let Vekter think it was his idea.” This means that the aura excuse only works for those who didn’t know what they were getting into until they arrived, since Vehemence’s aura has been shown to have a maximum range. Can’t aura someone over the phone.
6. Those who were not released on their own recognizance have been arrested, whether for outstanding warrants or as possible accomplices is up for debate. I really don’t think we need to have a comic dedicated to them actually being told that they have been arrested in order to logically posit that from the given information. Regardless, they can be held, without being charged with anything, for up to 48 hours.
7. This is a world with superpowers. To say that they should just try to imprison or detain these supers with mundane means is disingenuous at best. To say that what they are doing is against the law is to claim that the lawmakers and superheroes are complete idiots who would try to break the law rather than just have as part of Archon’s charter that they could use “any means necessary” to detain supers. The Patriot Act allows suspension of Miranda Rights, citizenship rights, and in some instances human rights of those charged with terrorism in the United States. It’s completely logical that there would be similar caveats in place for supers who broke the law and needed to be detained.
1. Some of the supers were being debriefed. Others, who had outstanding warrants or criminal records, were being detained. This is clearly stated when Ariana says that those without criminal records or outstanding warrants are being released “on parole”, I believe the legal term would be “on their own recognizance”. Since Opal has not been released, she must have either a criminal record or outstanding warrants.
1)Actually a person can’t be ‘on parole’ without being arrested AND charged and tried and sentenced. Being released on their own recognizance means they’ve been brought into court and went before a judge – the police don’t do that on their own. And they can’t have questioned her yet since SHE WAS UNCONSCIOUS.
2. You have a strange idea of what self defense is.
Oh yeah, law school really taught me some weird stuff. So did the two states where I’ve taken and passed the bar – Ohio and New York. Thanks for being condescending.
“In the United States, you cannot resist or flee arrest and attack a law enforcement officer who tries to stop you and get off with a self defense plea.”
You need to first be arrested in order to flee arrest, and I’ve gone over the fact that she hasnt actually attacked law enforcement. Not to mention the whole mens rea thing, which is something apparently no one arguing with me seems to want to address.
“You will be charged with assaulting a law enforcement officer and resisting arrest, and you will be incarcerated until trial. No matter what you believe about whether or not it was self defense, that is how United States law works.”
No, actually it’s not how United States law works, especially in this scenario. Any competent prosecutor would have a problem with the fact that there was very arguably no mens rea or conscious intent by Opal. Even Archon, via Arianna, realized this was a problem and stated it outright to Sydney. So yeah, I know how United States law works. I’ve been part of the state Bar in Ohio for 8 years and New York for 7.
“Considering Vekter and Opal were directing the fight up until Vehemence stepped in, and they tried to flee before Vehemence stopped them, the mind control defense has a very poor chance of working, since those who were shown to be under Vehemence’s influence gave no thought to retreat, only to attack.”
I already showed the EXACT PAGE where Vehemence admits that he tricked Vektor into doing this attack. He openly admitted it to Archon. That alone is enough – you see, in the United States, you’re innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
“This means that the aura excuse only works for those who didn’t know what they were getting into until they arrived, since Vehemence’s aura has been shown to have a maximum range. Can’t aura someone over the phone.”
Uh…. there was nothing to say that he aura’ed ANYONE over the phone, let alone Opal. Saying ‘a few phonecalls’ meaning he called Opal on the phone, said ‘lets go attack that super force’ and she said ‘okay sure’ on the phone is a MAJOR stretch for you to be making, based on absolutely no evidence.
Actually almost everything you said is based on massively incorrect assumptions and a misunderstanding of the law – including your description of the Patriot Act, which is a moot act since IT EXPIRED YEARS AGO (except for the part about roving wiretaps,which was extended with the Freedom Act, which does not apply here at all). Sorry, you’re wrong. Massively, massively wrong, or at the very least, making assumptions based on a misunderstanding of the law or making assumptions about if Opal was arrested vs being debriefed. If she’s been arrested and charged (which would actually be the smart thing to do, then just rescind the charges if it was found that there’s ANY evidence that she was influenced by Vehemence – which IS likely, sorry – it IS),then she could be held like this. Not before.
I think you’re missing one important point. None of these people need necesarily be charged by civilian law. They attacked a MILITARY force and could thus be held as enemy combatants for a @bigbluebelle Actually you’re wrong. As someone with a degree in computers I can tell you that computers existed before programming. The simplest common form was an abacus which was used to do math, but which didn’t have any programming. It was a purely physical computer.
As for Ada, she’s become a symbol of female empowerment and is being touted above and beyond her actual accomplishments. She was a great espouser of the potential of computers and her work has been very influential in the development of a number of things in computing. Nonetheless she did not create an actual program. She created an algorithm. It’s the difference between teaching someone to tie their shoes and teaching them which muscles to move in which directions to do it. Computers lack self volition. Without proper programming while if so designated. A good lawyer might eventually get a court ordered release, but that would take time.
Ok. For some random reason it included a paragraph I posted on another forum last night.
The people being debriefed aren’t in cells. Opal was arrested.
Only according to you. Not according to anything said in the comics at all. Whereas stuff has been said specifically in the comic to lead to the other conclusion.
That was last night during a (to use an analogy) triage process. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff whilst summarising a complex situation, as it stood at the time.
It would not make sense for her, in that speech, to then go on to say:
“Here is a bunch of stuff about police procedure that we will do afterwards. It is not necessary for you to hear this, because you are trained police (or half-asleep recruits, who should be going to bed), but I am going to tell you anyhow.”
Wow… Quite a read on all accounts!
My assessment is that we all might be reading too much in this. There is quite possibly a good deal going on between the panels and pages, some of which might even be brought up or addressed in future pages; especially as we know Dave reads the posts, our discussions make this even more likely, provided the answers are not simply very, very boring. An example regarding Opal’s absence of a lawyer, for example, could simply be that she doesn’t have a lawyer AT THIS TIME. Someone who is under arrest usually doesn’t have a lawyer with them 24/7 for the rest of their life.
Similarly, it is entirely possible that SOME of the people would find themselves under arrest; there’s a strong impression given that Vektor and Opal have outstanding criminal records, even if it isn’t expressly said.
Similarly, one can be arrested, and then the charges dropped during investigation. This “debriefing” that most of them are undergoing are likely all cases where no charges are being brought in the first place. The Barberian, for example, was clearly only influenced. Heck, he might even have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time!
(I have this mental image of a pre-page with him going up to a couple others, going, “So what’s going on here? I have to open the salon in the morning… are we getting drinks?” “Nah, man, we’re gonna get some ACTION!” “Wait… what? HOLY CRAP, I’M UNDER ATTACK BY SUPER MILITARY ARMY MEN OH GOOOOOOOOOD!!!”)
Boiler Plate similarly seems like he might not just be an influenced bystander, but with a bit of convincing might even make a good recruit! Anyone who can toe-to-toe with Hiro, take a hit from Maxima, and still be up and ready to help with Vehemence in the end has some EXCELLENT credentials right there, and has set both an excellent example for proof of being influenced by Vehemence AND for being able to work well in a super-team situation.
Others were not so clearly defined as “affected” or “willing,” and others might, as stated, have had outstanding warrants. This all makes sense if we assume that their organization has been busy off-camera with the aforementioned piles of paperwork, as well as proper cooperation and good research, which we can assume they have access to. I’m going to guess that Dave is most likely going to take a lot of these discussions into account, and might even go into the criminal records of the ones shown as being actually arrested/incarcerated at later points. Reading a comic does involve SOME suspension of disbelief, even in one that is trying to answer some of the many inconsistencies present in the genre.
Ultimately, my suggestion is to discuss, as we’ve been doing, but not to discount or assume that we know more about what is going on in the comic than the author does; not saying anyone is doing so, of course, but I think we can assume that he will take our questions and concerns into account, assuming it is reasonable and entertaining to do so. Going into the long legal proceedings, though, just isn’t in the goofy action/humor of the comic. If we wanted that, we’d be watching NCIS or Law and Order. ^_^
+1
How does the teleportation thing work? If the powers like harems then its exit location dependant so if she knows a 1 bar open field then there would be no decompression, if the cell was gradually pressurised while she was asleep then it’s The Bends(Nitrogen coming out of solution in blood) not explosive decompression(The pressure going below blood’s liquid level then the blood boils.) The bad terms could lead to unfortunate accidents.
They might have said that because explosive decompression is more commonly understood than the bends and thanks to modern movies can provide a much more vivid, graphic, and visceral mental image.
Opal opening a portal would cause explosive decompression (and Bends if she survives).
Someone like Harem just teleporting away would not suffer the explosive decompression, but still have the Bends.
Though the current in universe explation is only directed towards Opal, so it’s still correct
Harem comes out of teleport the same state she went in, so she’d come out pressurized and, if pressurized to 9 atm or higher, would explosively decompress so violently that she might actually explode. See the 1983 Dolphin accident.
Byford Dolphin, that is.
To be fair, we’re not certain it would actually TAKE nine atmospheres of pressure to pulp a human body.
Nine is just what they HAD, and the results were instant and spectacular for the poor bastard closest to the leak, and no less lethal for everybody else exposed to the gradient inside the compression chamber.
A far smaller gradient could have also been lethal.
Somebody has to press the button to depressurise Opal’s room. Are they faster than her dropping a portal over herself?
Leaving a pressurized area into normal air pressure would result in all sorts of problems. At high pressure your body absorbs more nitrogen, and when pressure suddenly drops that nitrogen expands. It will literally make bubbles in your organ tissues. We’re talking distended tissues and blocked blood flow at best, internal rupturing and bleeding at worst. There’s a reason why deep-sea divers spend hours in a high-pressure tank slowly letting themselves decompress at a rate their bodies can handle. Also the same reason why airplanes are kept pressurized to maintain normal sea-level air pressure inside.
So basically, Opal would kill herself if she tried to leave a pressurize environment too quickly. No need to trigger anything.
Look up the Byford Dolphin accident to see what can happen when a decompression chamber is suddenly breached. Let’s just say it went FAR beyond “internal” rupturing. At least death was instantaneous. (Shudder)
My guess would be this is her home for as long as they have her. If they have to move her they’ll pump in some sleep gas and keep her sedated until she’s in another pressurized room.
Agreed.
Possibly they may even have smaller pressurised chambers suitable to be put in vehicles. Complete with their life-support, of course. As folks have pointed out, this is a good means of containment for many types of super.
Such mobile units (in trucks and cargo aircraft, for example) could be dispatched to pick up recently sedated villains. Especially important for those with enhanced metabolisms, who might shake off sedatives faster than they can be brought to a containment facility.
If they are built with this in mind, the airlocks could utilise a standard connection design. Provided the prison also featured truck access, to an airlock, the prisoners could be transported to and fro, without the need for de-pressurisation, at any point.
The airlock even allowing the two separate chambers to have different pressures and gas mixes (for security reasons) and the prisoners would remain in the airlock whilst the mix and pressure was gradually adjusted to their destination chamber. Such differentials would probably be kept fairly low though, to avoid having unduly lengthy decant times.
Remember you pass the port to the right, but the prisoner must not be left.
My shenanigans sense is tingling from that last comment. What could this mean?
Just doing some plays on words. Normally you use “decant” to describe pouring wine, or other liquid, from one container to another. Typically this takes some time, as you have to avoid disturbing the sediment.
Having done that, then inspired me to just get silly, on the last line, so your shenanigans call is most just. :-)
Especially given as I clearly would get kicked out of any gentlemen’s drinking club, for getting my etiquette completely wrong! So, my apologies for my inadvertent misinformation. You should actually pass the port bowl to the left.
*wags tail playfully*
Your mentioning of passing the port bowl to the left made me remember this classic (which has nothing to do with drugs, or people from The Netherlands :P)
.
.
.
~Throws squeeky toy~
Fetch!
Whee!
*chases gleefully after toy, and pounces on it!*
Careful, that’s the stuff that killed Dylan.
Thomas or Bob? o_O
It’s a reference to the movie Paul.
a lot of concern over Opal getting out, what about her using the portals to bring stuff IN?
I mean if I were going to go after an organization like ARC attacking them at a restaurant seems pointless. instead what I’d do if I had access to someone who could make portals is let her get captured so that she could make an entrance into the middle of their most secure facility and launch the real attack from inside their defenses. trash their infrastructure, raid their stores, go after their support personnel, demoralize them and retreat back through the portal before they could rally an effective counterattack.
That assumes that they’re dumb enough to keep her in a facility that’s got access to their main base. Max seems genre savvy enough avoid making a mistake that obvious.
You are forgetting one very vital piece of information: the room has been pressurized to prevent her from leaving until her time is up
The process of opening the portal is what would cause explosive decompression, killing her.
We’ve already seen that her portals vanish when she’s knocked out (after Vehemence did so when she was about to portal everyone out), so that wouldn’t work.
Unless she could somehow put up portals between her ‘base’ and the control room, but that’d require communication (through portal near her, which wouldn’t work), and her knowing where said control room IS (which she doesn’t)
You can pretty much leave it at that first line. Why can’t Opal bring stuff IN?
“The process of opening a portal is what would cause explosive decompression, killing her.”
That’s why Opal can’t bring stuff in.
Also because Opal doesnt have any sort of way to make stuff on the other side of the portal go through it to her. She just makes the portals. She can’t make things go through it to her.
Mmm, I would not be so sure of that. She was clearly confident that she could move all the unconscious bodies, despite them not being compos mentis. If she can do that, then bringing things to her is just as logical.
Being able to target them, is another matter. So we should not assume she can magic up things that she has no idea of where they are located. But, moving an inanimate object, from a remote location, via her portals, sounds within her capabilities. However she does it.
Again, you can’t ‘assume’ powers that have not been shown already in the comics. Being able to make portals and having some sort of telekinetic ability to bring objects to her are completely different.
The reason she was confident that she could get all the bodies OUT of there was becaus she was forming the portals UNDER them. Then simply put, gravity would do the work. Plus she had line-of-sight on the bodies to know where to put the portals in relation to the bodies.
My description did not mention telekinesis. In fact I specified “however she does it”.
Your counter however described the process. Which can also be used to bring inanimate objects to her.
Q.E.D.
By the way, line-of-sight issues really are not much of a limitation for portal users. Given that they can be used for observation purposes, just as easily as they can for transportation. Clearly Opal has cross-country capability by some means (gathering the combatants initially).
Let us say she does that via Skype video conference normally. All she needs is a smart phone smuggled in and she overcomes the limitation. We know that such slip through prison security, often enough that it is a world-wide problem, rather than isolated cases.
Opal has a nice window (aka portal, but I will avoid duplicating the term) in her door. She can form a portal on the far side of that, using her conference call, and then use the window portal as her primary remote viewpoint, so that she is no longer reliant on the phone. Note that this is outside of her pressure cell, so does not compromise her atmosphere.
Plus we have seen Opal opening multiple portals, so she can use as many window portals as she wants, to get good views. Whilst placing one big portal beyond them (facing the other way, and connected somewhere else), to prevent the guards from getting close enough to block the view.
Even without mobile phones, she can do a chain of portals (or use a mobile one, which I understand DaveB indicated was possible). Thus allowing her to gradually expand her view from outside her cell, through the next door’s window (creating a portal beyond). Then down the corridor, to the nearest window. Then to the furthest point she can see (or moving as fast as the portal can travel). Gradually going beyond the horizon.
Note there are countermeasures which can be taken. But I am not proposing this as an escape route, nor is it infallible. It is simply a tool at her disposal.
Actually it is “a.k.a. porthole, rather than portal”. Doh.
*100 generations of naval ancestors rolling in their graves*
So embarrassing. Especially as I know all these terms well enough that I can get around. There is the pointy end, at the front of the boat. And the blunt end at the back. Although I never have problems remembering that the kitchen is the galley.
…Well, can’t really argue with the results.
Getting creative with how to incarcerate or stop supers, it makes me wonder if Arc-Dark (I’m assuming they’re the ones that would handle…) has a version of the Xavier protocols for the members of Arc-Swat.
For those unfamiliar, the Xavier protocols was a set of instructions and strategies on how to stop members of the X-men should they ever go rogue and become a threat to humanity. Several had to be put into practice, namely the one for Xavier himself when he turned into Onslaught.
The method to keeping Opal locked up is pretty neat, but I wonder if it would work for Harem. They’d have to capture all 5 of her, otherwise one could go scuba diving till they figured out what pressure the locked down one was at, deteleport the one, then teleport to an appropriate depth where another Harem would have breathing gear ready to safely swim to the surface.
Just glad you didn’t use Batman for your example :D
But yes, they probably have contingencies for everyone in Archon, including Maxi and Dabbles, how effectively they will be will have to wait and be put to the test, if they ever go rogue (they are still working on one for Sydney, but it probably involves mirrors, comics and shiny objects :P)
Sydney herself already told them “mittens are my kryptonite,” remember? Just lock a pair of mittens on her hands. She can still handle utensils well enough to eat, drink & handle any other necessary functions.
Or actual gloves, for that matter. Give her nearly full range of motion in her hands, and will prevent use of her powers.
Just no bullets. Anybody trying that on her is going to find me ripping their limbs off! No matter what threat she otherwise poses.
*enters attack pose, with tail unmoving*
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
She CAN still use the orbs as a weapon, even with gloves/mittens on her, as they obey her mental commands for movement. She just can’t use the orbs’ individual powers.
True.
Ooh, a further thought. Although Sydney has experimented with activating her powers mentally, and confirmed that she cannot do that unless they are in hand (barring the exception you noted), she has only subsequently realised that she can use the sigils, on the orbs, to activate things.
For instance the ’embiggener’ on the shield. Likewise the thing she triggered, on the true-sight orb, to examine the aggro-aura.
Those kinds of things she may be able to do just by poking them with her nose.
If one, or more (presently unknown) sigils do more active things, than those examples above, Halo would be more versatile in a mitten lockdown.
Honestly, the best way to keep Sydney TRULY detained it to lock the balls in place in some sort of unbreakable container. Then Sydney, being tethered to the orbs, would not be able to move AWAY from the orbs, OR use them as mentally-controlled bludgeoning devices like she did with Shadow Boxer :)
Yea.
Although if Sydney figures out she can invoke the immovability at will then she can interfere with that process. To date she has only tried dragging Tubey around, to overcome the calorie denial force field. Which is not the same as issuing a mental command to the orbs. So it is possible.
In which case, the opposition will need to have (at the very least) someone stronger than Maxima, if they wish to put the orbs into that container you describe. Given that Maxima is five star strength, the only contender would be a fully rage-enhanced Vehemence. And even he may not be strong enough!
Of course there are ways around that, but they are more complex or time consuming than just putting the orbs in a container.
Finally, Sydney has not tested the upper strength of her orbs in motion. She has only tested that of her tentacle. Currently they average about human punching strength, in use. So their upper limit might be about that (and most likely is).
However, in physics terms, in order to prevent themselves moving, they need to be exerting an equal and opposite force to whatever is trying to move them. Thus their potential upper limit can be five star strength!
If so they could only be contained by a literally unbreakable container, which also had a tether stronger than than the orbs, attached to something heavier than Maxima could lift. Which is likely in the aircraft carrier weight bracket!
Sydney would probably be very easy to beat if she’d be isolated. Her key weakness in the field is that she can’t keep her shield up forever, which Archon knows (and after some testing, probably even how long exactly).
So just avoid her PPO (may prove difficult), keep up with her flying (may also prove difficult, but she can’t do both at the same time. Key weakness again) until she has to drop the bubble.
Sydney would be easy to defeat unless she is given advance warning. She has no spectacular mental acuity, meaning her reaction time isnt that special. So literally anyone busting into her room at night and grabbing her hands makes her helpless. If she gets her hands on her orbs, things get more problematic. She has a defense and raw speed that could likely only be matched or exceeded by maxima, maybe dabbler depending on what sort of goodies she has on hand. She is roughly 4x faster than the next fastest flier, and is capable of putting her shield up at the same time, meaning she is cross country inside an hour and only max could possibly bust her shield down. As for air supply, she can make her shield really big. We dont have any info on how that effects things like flight speed or durability yet.
We also dont know what sort of limits max is under. Like, we know she is faster than sydney, but is that with just the normal assignment of her power pool? Does she have to stat dump to stay faster? I ask because that too could come into effect for taking sydney down. If max has to take points from her strength or particle blasts to keep up with sydney, then it might mean she CANT bust sydneys shield while on the move. And even if she can, it might take a “three mile island” level event to breech it. Which obviously is unacceptable under most circumstances.
I agree with most of what you say. But you overplay it with
Your earlier comments are fair, if Sydney has no orb in hand. However, when they are, all her powers operate at the speed of thought.
And she does not even need to have one in hand, to use it as a clubbing weapon. Notably she was able to respond to the hint of being back-stabbed, and intercept what would have otherwise been a fatal blow.
Further, incredibly impressive though that was, she was also able to take down Math. Now, before I go further, I would not want to overstate this myself, as she used trickery as much as speed. But it did involve both, so it is worth saying, nonetheless. Math has a four star reaction rating. Just one category below the bullet-catching Maxima!
Sydney may not have time-enhanced senses, like Ren. But she is no slowpoke either!
As per my reply above, Maxima will need to take into account the fact that her opponent can react as fast as she can think. But, presently, she is untrained and unfocussed. So her two extraordinary feats above were the result of instinct, rather than skill.
Which means Math has a lot that he can teach her. Halo has the raw potential, and he has recognised that. With training she will be able to replicate such feats, on demand. Whilst many martial arts techniques focus on muscle memory, there is a lot that is in the realm of the mind too.
Training the mind to respond in the same kind of instinctive way as Sydney did, but following conditioned combat responses. These can be applied to her orb-fighting techniques. Although the safety delay on the PPO might inhibit that (or not, as she gets used to her control).
But, for now, Sydney is just a normal person. Her reaction speed, on the super scale, is 0 stars. Versus Maximas (at full power) of 5 stars. But worse than that, from Halo’s point of view, is that Maxima always has a minimum level that she cannot go below. Which may be 2 or 3 stars. She can always fly, has super strength and toughness. No matter how much she diverts into specific attributes.
Even at her worst, Maxima will always be able to beat Sydney, very very easily, at any comparable physical activity. Until Halo is trained to utilise her mental reaction speed, to the fullest, to counter that.
Barring of course her present instinctive responses (also known as “beginner’s luck”). The “fear puke factor”.
A note on stars. A single point of difference is enough to always beat the opponent, in a like-for-like activity. Sydney cannot see the ballpark Maxima is in (even when Maxima is at her lowest capability), let alone gain entry.
IIRC didn’t Bastion/Nimrod and his “Prime” Sentienels during “Zero Tolerance” manage to get hold of the Protocols and use them?
Yes.
Batman/Xavier Protocals are 99% always going to be used when a supervillain breaks into the hero’s computer and steals them rather than because a hero has actually gone rogue.
Aw man, Mr Voilence is tweaked of his balls. HAH!
And the Doritos are probably going to be mild flavor, or cool ranch.
Always believed that increasing pressure was simply through, well, pressure, not through gasses
The reason divers have problems the further down they go is because the water pressure is greater the further down they go, same as spelunkers but most navigable caves aren’t as deep
The pressure causes changes in the human body, which does actually alter the gasses our blood carries around. The body will want more of some of the gasses we normally breathe, and less of others. A bit like pregnant women getting cravings for weird things. The body’s needs have changed, and it is altering the biochemistry of the body accordingly.
Beyond that though, we can control what gasses are made available, artificially. This is not necessary for dolphins and whales, who have evolved clever mechanisms to avoid that. But lacking those, the human body cannot survive the pressure beyond a certain depth, because the gasses (and the resultant changes to the biochemistry) create a toxic effect, if using normal air.
Hence why the gasses are so vital, if diving deep. It is them that kills us before the raw pressure does.
Humans holding their breath can go down to some pretty flingin’ flangin’ great depths too. As long as you are letting your blood get infused with pressurized gases, you don’t need to decompress.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/08/140810-free-diving-sperm-whales-jules-verne-reunion-booktalk/
But Opal is equalized so the pressure inside her is the same as the pressure outside. Thus the need for decompression.
When I was in the Navy I was on a nuclear sub. There is an escape method where you where an inflatable hood and get into an airlock that is quickly filled. Then you just shoot up to the surface exhaling all the way. Since you weren’t fully equalized you don’t need to decompress that way either. Supposedly it works for water depths up to 600 feet. I did it at 40 feet in training and it worked fine.
However, since submarines typically don’t submerge unless there is more than 600 feet of water underneath, you can guess how useful this was. We used to call it the “mommy pacifier”.
dagnabbit “NOT letting your blood…”
Yes, understand that changing the pressure increases (or decreases) the amount of gasses the body intakes, just didn’t realise that it used gasses to change the pressure in the first place
Well yes, but the high pressure gasses in that chamber also exert, you know. Pressure
I’m curious. If not through increasing atmospheric density and thus atmospheric pressure, how did you THINK a chamber was pressurized?
Guesticus may not have been thinking about that angle at all.
Also don’t forget that the logical knowledge that we can apply on such issues only comes from having been taught what others discovered. Until great men (and women) made unintuitive leaps, to figure out this in the first place, and then explained it to the rest of us, in easy to understand terms, nobody knew such things.
All it takes is being sick, on the day that this is taught in class, to miss out on sharing that knowledge. And that assumes having taken physics as a subject. I am sure I am equally unaware of basic chemical knowledge, due to not having studied that myself. You will notice my distinct absence from the more technical gas threads.
I still say that, with the exception of Vehemence, any lawyer worth his or her certification would be able to get EVERY SINGLE superhuman involved in the attack off totally free.
And depending on the methods of incarceration during the investigation, I could see a pretty good lawsuit against Archon in addition for cruel and unusual punishment (threatening death for suspicion of culpability is overkill). With everyone except Vehemence, there’s absolutely no way to ever establish mens rea. Without being able to establish mens rea, you can’t get a conviction. If you did get a conviction, it would be because of fear of superhumans, not because of legal culpability – and from what Archon’s press conference said ‘it’s not illegal to have powers.’ And while yes, you can hold a person for any reason for 72 hours (48 hours in some jurisdictions), you can’t threaten them with death and you need to let them know that you’re holding them – they can also get the right to call an attorney. As soon as you’re arrested, even before you’re charged, you can ask for an attorney, and they must provide one or let you contact one. And the first thing the attorney can say is ‘are you going to charge them?’ If the answer isnt ‘yes,’ the attorney is going to tell them ‘then we’re leaving right now.’ You can only hold someone because you’re waiting to charge them (ie, gathering evidence before the formal charge) – if the prosecutor admits that he or she isnt sure if he or she is going to charge the suspect yet, most judges will tell the prosecutor to let them go if they don’t even know if they’re going to hold them.
“But Pander, if they don’t threaten Opal with death by explosive decompression, she’ll just portal away!”
Well..then at least they’d have something real with which to charge her when they recapture her – fleeing custody, resisting arrest, etc. Right now, they have nothing, unless she already has outstanding warrants.
For Whom the Bell Tolls (who I like to just call Death Toll) has an even better defense. Even if Archon was to claim that his power might make him immune to Vehemence’s aura (which is not proven at all), he can just claim everything he did was self defense. Because….well…. everything he did was self defense. He did not do any act which could be legitimately called a crime. Technically speaking, he didnt even do anything that could be called accessory to a crime. :) But Sydney already brought that up during the fight. :)
The only thing I can think of is MAYBE there’s something written in the new law that allows Archon to do these extraordinary acts when holding superhumans, but that seems to go against what they said about it not being illegal to simply ‘have superpowers.’ Plus I’m not sure how well a law like that will survive judicial scrutiny anyway.
Taking my lawyer hat off now :) I actually love this page.
Getting vehence off gets quite easy if you note his size and theorize that depriving him of violence is equal to depriving dabs of sex.
I don’t see how that would provide any excuse for his criminal behavior. He doesnt need to cause massive violence in order to live.
You need to eat in order to live. That doesnt mean you need to weigh 600 pounds and eat 5 whole hams a day.
Heck… even if he DID need violence to live, Vehemence could have just been a boxer. Or hockey or football player. Or a police officer. Or a soldier. Or a Three Stooges buff Curly cosplayer. There is no shortage of jobs where some level of violence is a necessary part of the job… and LEGAL.
Just so.
Heck, he could get a job as a storm chaser or a reporter for natural disasters. He could be a wildlife reporter. He could be a friggin’ buff Jacques Cousteau, specializing in undersea predators.
Soo, you see him as more of a WWF man, than a WWE guy?
lol Pretty much!
I’m on board with you two on his need to feed not being any kind of excuse. I’m reminded of the Cubi from this other comic I read; they just feed on emotion as an ambient resource, sort of like air, but some actively cause the emotion, others just go where it is and feed on it while trying to help. Imagine a being who feeds on fear, deciding to work at a Children’s hospital, because children will ALWAYS be afraid… and getting a job simply playing with them and working as candy-striper. Meaning, doesn’t do anything to make more fear, is in fact working to help the children feel better, and is simply taking advantage of the ambient emotion as a food source.
Vehemence could easily do something like that, just like Dabbler could easily absorb sexual energy by hanging out near a party-college dorm’s frat houses. Neither want to do that, and so we come to a simple matter of choice.
Nice idea for the fear feeding kindergarten worker. Plus interesting moral issues on that one. After all there is a conflict of interest for that individual. Especially if they are peckish, greedy or (like Vehemence) their need appeared to be increasingly addictive.
They would have a real incentive to be slow to quell any fear, or to tell more scary stories than might be appropriate, for example. And, of course, if they were gifted, in their job, or simply got very good at it, they would get no bonus nutrition at all!
Although, if there is no addictive, or other, compulsion driving them to feed inappropriately, then it is no different to a chef working in a kitchen or a vampire in a blood bank. It just comes down to a matter of trusting them, like any other worker, to do their job honestly.
Had nice big counter, but encountered a “503 error” :(
She is not being ‘threatened with death’ any more than the armed guards in the towers surrounding a prison are ‘threatening the inmates with death’. Just remember: when she was taken into custody, she was unconscious due to the actions of one of her own ‘allies’, she was placed into this holding cell because they have had experience with her abilities and anything else would have meant she would be gone as soon as she woke up (no need for her to ask to phone for her attorney if she can just portal to their office)
You are correct, it’s not illegal to have ‘superpowers’, but it is still illegal to attack military and slash or law enforcement personnel, and ARCHON is both. People like Barberian may or may not guilty of anything more than having the wrong friends, but Opal and Vector were ringleaders and they were coordinating things
Actually, given the fact that she hasnt actually been CHARGED with a crime yet, even armed guards in towers surrounding her cell would be overkill. Telling her that if she opens a portal, she will have a quick but excruciating death? That’s cruel and unusual punishment. Sorry – it is.
Also, even according to Vehemence, Vektor was TRICKED into thinking it was all his idea. They werent the ringleaders – Vehemence was. If anything, the are most likely to be able to use the claim of being tricked by Vehemence’s violence aura.
Quick question: How do you know she hasn’t been charged yet? I mean, I know it would probably be fast work on the part of the prosecutor, but it doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have been done. As far as I can tell, actually charging someone with a crime is a matter of filing the right paperwork with the court, so she wouldn’t have to be notified for the charge to occur. (There’s likely some rules how notifying a defendant within a reasonable amount of time so they can start their defense, but that’s not the same as immediately.)
Is there a particular reason why they couldn’t have filed the charges while she was still en-route to this facility?
No reason at all that I am aware of, as a layman. The delays normally only occur if unsure of things. There were a number of things she did which they would be able to determine without further enquiries.
Although the cops and/or prosecutor might decide to allow thinking time, given the complications of having Vehemence’s aggro aura involved. However it would not need overly much to realise that very reason would take it out of the hands of the person making that decision. It is too complex.
It would require the deliberations of a jury, with the assistance of fully researched background information on Opal’s behaviour, both in Vehemence’s presence and at other times. For instance if it can be demonstrated that she was behaving with criminal intent (say by making social posts like “let us go out and attack those cops”) before she even met Vehemence, then they would have a clear case to convict.
Therefore, depending on how the specifics are handled in the jurisdiction, they could immediately lay sample or preliminary charges, for one or more of the crimes she visibly committed, whilst making provision to add further charges, in due course. Thus allowing the jury to determine whether mens rea existed or not.
Note that this is the position for the ringleaders. It was much simpler for the majority of the mob, especially for the hairdresser who “was only here because some of his friends came along” and was clearly was out of place, not even looking for a fight. Thus Maxima justifiably feeling confident that justice would not be served by referring their cases to court.
Yorp, juries are only used once someone is charged, then remanded to trial. Opal is not being remanded for trial. She’s there during an investigation during a debriefing. Which is something they actually CANT DO under the law (or they can do it, then get sued, or have it used against Archon at trial, then have that used in the following torious lawsuit against Archon). I’m not even considering any possible civil rights violations that might be argued, since that would be less likely to be effective since ‘superpowers’ isn’t a protected class (yet).
She is being held pending investigation: they know she was one of the ringleaders, they just don’t know if she was a ringleader because of Kevin or not
She wasnt actually the one giving any orders at all. She obeyed orders, but was not giving any. The only one that was giving orders was Vektor, who Vehemence’s statement is helping a lot to show that he was not the ringleader – he just thought he was (POSSIBLY because of the vehemic influence).
Well, I believe she is. And said as much. I was responding to the question:
To which I concluded:
So I clearly understand the issue involved. You are fixated on demanding that the comic show every stage of the process. Whilst I can sympathise, especially given your desire for legal clarity on the issue, DStaal‘s question was not about that. It was (to rephrase)
Yes, it can.
“Well, I believe she is. And said as much. I was responding to the question:”
Except if she WAS being remanded to trial, that would mean she would have been arrested AND charged. You can’t be remanded to trial until you are both arrested AND charged. You are definitely not considered just ‘a guest’ – not to mention she would have been allowed her attorney, who would have repeated, probably verbatim, the stuff I’ve been saying :)
Also not to mention there’s nothing to show that she’s been remanded for trial, including the voiceover on that very panel, which implies exactly the opposite.
” You are fixated on demanding that the comic show every stage of the process.”
I’m a lawyer :) It’s hardwired into me because of law school and taking two state Bars.
“Whilst I can sympathise, especially given your desire for legal clarity on the issue, DStaal‘s question was not about that.”
And I do understand what you’re saying. That IF there were additional stages to the process between the panels, which for some reason would be directly contradicting what’s being said in the panels of the comic and past panels, then sure – you’d be right. But given that there have been multiple in-panel explanations which support what I’m saying, then you really should be erring on the side of what the evidence is showing, rather than making assumptions of non-existence scenes which, if they happened, would then make DStaal’s arguments no longer invalid.
OF course, if DaveB says otherwise to clear it up, then I’d obviously change my opinion. It would seem … .odd based on what’s been said in the comics, but word of god would supercede where the story seems to be leading.
My apologies, I did not realise that you were that unfamiliar with the common man’s grasp of the legal process. Let me clarify I consider that anybody (who is likely to be reading this) understands that “to charge someone” does mean “to arrest AND charge them”.
Sorry, I was clearly overestimating your grasp of common conversational terms. I shall be sure to be more pedantic in future. Let me therefore add that I consider she will also need to be read her rights, allowed a phone call, given a lawyer AND all other necessary legal requirements, for her to be remanded for trial.
_________________________________________________________
Note that subsequent to my conversations in this thread, I realised one practicality that would change all the above.* Namely that she has been sedated, up until this point. Therefore it would indeed be necessary for the charging process to occur after her waking up.
This is no different to any other unconscious prisoner. It is simply a matter of practicality. You cannot charge someone whilst they are not conscious. However they can be given a medical exam, to ensure it is safe for them to be kept in a cell, until they awaken.
My general knowledge leads me to believe this is normal practice. With hospital only being considered necessary if they have complications which might endanger them. Thus materially no different to Opals situation. Barring the danger to her life, that is.
Given that, if she panics and tries to portal out, it would be fatal for her, the top priority is not reading her rights, arresting, or charging her. The most important thing is to set her at her ease, enough that they can see that she is calm enough to proceed with that.
Therefore, once she is at ease, Opal will be told that her lawyer is on the way, and she will be interviewed, by a police officer and/or prosecutor, once they have had the opportunity to consult. They can then discuss whether they want her to be charged, and have a legal record, or whether she is willing to help them with her enquiries.
If her lawyer insists “charge or we leave” she will be arrested AND charged etc.
* Kudos to DaveB, I think he thought this through better than either of us.
Scooby burgers all round! Come join in the snackfest, further down the page.
She hasnt been charged yet because of Maxima’s own statements, both several pages ago when she called it a debriefing, as well as where she says ‘the rest will be helping us test the arc-aegis facility while we do further investigation’ – that means they haven’t been charged yet.
You don’t have to charge someone to hold them, specially if they were actively involved in a coordinated attack (whether Kevin influenced her and Vector to attack or not has yet to be determined, but they were still in clear enough of minds, ie not mindlessly looking for a fight, to round up nearly 30 malcontents and attack with intent to injure official law enforcement personnel)
She has been placed in a pressurized cell to prevent her from fleeing, if she has no intent on fleeing (like she did towards the end of the rumble) then there will be no problems, and, if they find that she was not responsible (very not likely) for any of it, they will de-pressurize the cell and let her go, after giving her the usual warnings about not associating with (now) known criminals
1) It’s true that you can be held for 48 hours BEFORE being arrested and charged. You can not threaten to kill the suspect if they try to leave, though. If a suspect wants to leave before being charged… You HAVE TO LET THEM LEAVE or formally arrest them and hold them for charging. If it’s clear you’re just holding them with no intent to charge them… you can’t do that. It’s just how the law works.
2) That ‘attack with intent’ thing is a big problem, since Vehemence makes ‘intent’ unlikely, or at the VERY least, gives reasonable doubt against any claim of intent no matter what any prosecutor would ever claim. Any any prosecutor is going to realize this. You can’t say ‘well… she might have had intent, even though we have this person who has negated intent for almost everyone else involved’ – you have to make a legal assumption that she was under that influence as well and prove that she WASNT. Not prove that she was.
Ok re point 1) here. For the purposes of this reply I am happy to run with your assumption that she has not yet been charged.*
There is an implicit assumption, when a suspect is being questioned in a police station. Namely that they cannot just exit the building without being prevented. If they attempt to do so, the policeman can step in front of them and say “no, you may not leave, I have decided to place you under arrest”.
This is formalised, as you say, by their lawyer (or the suspect) needing to ask permission, via “charge him or we are leaving”.
However Opal can bypass that, without a ‘by your leave’. She just opens a portal and has evaded justice.
This is a point where society has to examine the basic assumptions and realise that her superpower is changing the normally assumed dynamic, in a way that could pervert the course of justice.
Thus a remedy has been introduced. An extremely harsh one. Which you are right to question. But, without it, there is every reason to believe she would no longer be in the room, by the time a police person arrived to charge her.
I would expect that judicial oversight is required for such extreme measures (albeit that time and circumstances might oblige that it be sought retroactively, if promptly). Provision and details for that, I certainly would expect to be part and parcel of the Archon legislation.
* Plus Opal has been sedated, and has only just woken up, so even if they intend to charge her, the cop has to be called to come and read Opal her rights, then detail the charges. We can assume that that would be the next thing her voice over the intercom will tell her “someone is on their way to charge you”.
I admit, I might be stretching this some, but, just as a layman here, I had taken what Maxima said to mean that Opal (and a few others at least) were actually being arrested, and that more details and information would be coming at a later time comic-wise.
Plus, and I say this not to contradict you, which, if you’re telling us the truth about being a lawyer, you’d be more of an expert on, but I was under the impression that the military operated under SLIGHTLY different rules than normal civilian laws normally dictate, such as being able to hold or restrain, temporarily, in order to ensure security after a crisis or natural disaster. (I’m going to chalk a super-battle as somewhere between those two.)
This has always meant to me that, in the name of domestic tranquility and national defense, the military normally has the authority to take actions that might normally be beyond the legal authority of law enforcement officers, provided that sound and defensible reasoning is present. Example: a military base might quarantine an American member of Doctors Without Borders if they had just come from an area dealing with a severe epidemic, and would be logically justified in holding that doctor in quarantine by whatever means become necessary if the doctor refuses to cooperate. TO THE BEST OF MY COMPARATIVELY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE, they are able to do so because their duty to keep the doctor from causing an accidental epidemic overrides the doctor’s right to not be incarcerated without having committed a crime.
Opal’s situation might be similar here.
The military only get special powers if either a state of emergency or state of war has been officially declared. The specifics vary from country to country, but do include the ability to impose curfews or quarantines. And may include the power for the government to declare martial law, depending on the constitution of the country in question.
Without it though, the military have no special power over civilians, other than if they are on military bases, and then only as regards military matters. For the US, the organisation which has power to impose quarantines is the CDC (Centre for Disease Control). Although, of course, they can get the military to assist them to do this.
Mostly the military authority, to push civilians around, stems from our innate desire to obey those in a position of authority, or who are wearing an official-looking uniform. Plus big guys, with guns, are hard to say no to.
Of course there are lots of obscure laws, around the world, which will provide exceptions to the above. Legacies of some specific disaster, or quirk of history, which granted limited powers, under specific circumstances.
That does make sense.
I can see how the logic might actually be used here, though. A state of emergency would logically invoke some select and limited authority and powers to the relevant military personnel on location, and like I was saying, a battle between supers can clearly reach the level of “natural disaster” or “state of emergency.”
I can see Arc-SWAT being able to have fights with supers classified as being temporary exceptions to many civil liberties regarding the fight, containment, and cleanup, provided those exceptions are limited in scope and duration. For example, temporary incarceration while debriefing nearby civilians and participants, temporary containment to verify health and security, and perhaps temporary asset seizure while securing a location. While these would all NORMALLY violate some liberties, all are reasonable precautions in the event of a localized disaster, provided reparations are made and things are limited in duration.
Yea, as a matter of practicality, Arc-Swat are going to need to do things which no normal cop has to do. Due to their opponents having extraordinary capabilities. Possibly the act which brought Archon into existence stipulates precisely such things as emergency requisition powers.
Whilst this is probably sensible, because if having to rely on old laws, framed for more limited, historic, historic circumstances, you can and do hit issues where you are unable to easily find an analogy or precedent.
For instance computer hacking did things which were clearly immoral, but because existing laws worked on the physical world, rather than involving the virtual world or data, there were loopholes and issues that were simply not covered.
Super powers are bound to present similar problems, that will need specific laws to resolve. But, despite that caveat, there are a lot of things that can actually be extrapolated from existing laws. In fact, because some laws do not impose limitations, even the huge scale that might be needed for super-policing is already catered for!
For instance, consider these examples. In each case they will be necessary to perform an arrest, and no lesser option is readily available. Would the following be legal:
• Stalwart requisitioning a tanker, transporting liquid nitrogen, in order to throw it at a terminatrix-like villain, to freeze them?
• Leon ordering an electrician to trap an electricity-gremlin-like creature in an answer phone? *
• Maxima requisitioning an operational nuclear power plant, in order to contain a villain, who poses a clear and present regional destructive threat, but who is invincible, unless in close proximity to intense radioactivity?
Consider those as you read through this article. It is focussed on commandeering cars. But covers the above issues, in places.
It is quite long though, so if you want my opinion, instead of forming your own, I think they would all be legal. When police do them.
* This is a trick question. Leon is a civilian, in military employment. He has no power of authority, in either capacity. He would need to defer this to Halo, or one of the other cops, to give the order.
Also, illegality (even atacking military/law enforcement) requires mens rea. It requires a conscious act of will. Vehemence’s aura removes that conscious act of will. Therfore it’s laughably easy to argue it is not their fault. The fact that Barberian and the others were engaging in this fight as well just adds credence to the idea that Vehemence was able to make even NON-violent people violent. People who might have violent tendencies are easier to make violent, but it doesnt mean they had any conscious intent to do the act if not for Vehemence’s ‘control’ over their violent tendencies.
You make good points, except that they all apply after they are charged, arraigned, and put on trial. Got nothing whatsoever to do with holding and filing charges until/unless making bail.
Agreed.
Albeit that we should respect the beat cop’s judgement in such matters, as a part of the process. They need to filter the crowd into suspects, witnesses/bystanders and the apparently guilty. The latter they charge, the former they investigate further and the rest get their details and statements taken and set free.
Whilst the prosecutors can review, or even overturn, these decisions, it is wholly appropriate for them to give due respect to the judgement of the cops, who were present at the incident. The hairdresser being a clear-cut example of ‘no case to answer’. It would just be a waste of court time to charge him, and would unduly impinge on his liberties.
Likewise for all of the others, that they do not turn up any other evidence against, beyond being at the fight. There will be no means of proving mens rea, without that. Therefore no judgement to put before a jury. The cop, or prosecutor, is obliged to consider them not guilty and release them without undue delay.
Actually I agree with almost everything you said :)
Note that Opal and Victor’s behaviour and comments clearly labelled them as organisers. That is evidence over and above simply being at the fight. Sufficient that their cases must be decided by a jury.
Actually, based on Vehemence’s own statements to Archon, he manipulated Vektor into thinking he thought of the idea, which can easily imply that a violence aura was used on him. So no, Vektor and Opal can easily argue that they were not the ringleaders – only Vehemence was the ringleader. They were victims of his power, just like everyone else.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1536
Read what Vehemence said while bragging to Archon.
“A few phone calls, a chick that makes portals, and here we are. I even let Vekter think the whole thing was his idea.”
He basically just gave both Opal and Vektor a way to say that he manipulated them with his powers.
OK.. so if “Vector THOUGHT they were the ringleaders” then how can SHE argue that they were under the influence and that it was all Vehemence’s fault? he only stated that he influenced VECTOR… nothing was said about HER… (OK, benefit of the doubt there, I’ll agree… but! Technicalities DO COUNT!) Also, what happened to personal responsibility?… I’m sorry, but having a “feeling” that it would be “RUDE to NOT hit someone” is just plain ol’ not going to cut it, as an excuse for what they did… they DID DO the crimes already mentioned, they DID gather the crowd, they DID ACT as RINGLEADERS. whether or not they were the “REAL” leader is irrelevant specifically BECAUSE they THOUGHT they were and STILL DID IT ANYWAY!, they came up with the plan, they gathered the rest… if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, then it probably IS a duck…
as for her, she DID “redirect” Stalwart into hitting Maxima, which, by the way, could have just as easily been directed to exit a few hundred feet into the air and have him be killed by impact… just because she DIDN’T do that does NOT remove the “reasonable doubt” that she COULD HAVE done so, which will ALSO be brought up at the appropriate time and place… as for the flight risk… she was knocked unconscious by V PRECISELY because she WAS trying to flee… IF she was “under the influence” of V at the time he would have just “controlled her into NOT trying to flee” and there would have been NO NEED TO KNOCK HER OUT!!!… BUT because he DID HAVE TO hit her in order to stop her actions, then that explicitly means that she was NOT being influenced, and she WAS doing these crimes UNDER HER OWN COGNIZANCE… I’m not sure, but i think that’s what you mean by the term “mens rea” right (according to wikipedia it is)?… and therefore she IS going to be charged (if she hasn’t already been charged while she was unconscious) for the aforementioned crimes. therefore she IS an extreme flight risk.
also, i disagree with your thought that she is not “armed”…yes, yes she IS… what if she portaled someone directly in from of a car doing 60Mph?… that person would die, and it was ONLY due to a direct action from her therefore it CAN be used as a weapon… HOW can you “disarm” that ability that (as far as we currently know) is from a GENETIC condition? this is an identical scenario with an extremely good martial artist.. they can kill someone using that skill… HOW do you PREVENT THEM from ACTUALLY doing so?… simple answer… you CAN’T…
whew, sorry for the wall ‘o text..
You could also logically argue that Opal’s attempt to flee would be her finally beginning to snap out of the vehemic influence, like Barberian did when he surrendered.
As for the car example, she had not done that in the fight, so you can’t assume she is doing that. She used her portals purely defensively. It would be like saying my car keys are weapons because they ‘could’ be used as a stabbing weapon, even though I’ve only ever used them to unlock the door to my car. Or for that matter charging me with using my car as a weapon, if it’s only used to try to flee without running people over.
Thanks. Except BEFORE they’re even arrested and charged, as you’re agreeing they have not been, they don’t NEED to do any of that stuff – they can just say ‘Am I free to leave or are you arresting me.’ If they’re free to leave, they have to let them leave – period. If they’re being arrested, then everything I said above kicks in as soon as they ask for their attorney.
Indeed.
Mind you that cannot be done until they are awake to demand that. So the entire process had to wait until she woke up. And it is vital that they ensure she does not panic right now. So, once she has been set at ease, they can get on with all that.
You know, just saying here, but telling me that if I use my powers I will suffer a quick a brutally painful demise would make me REALLY, REALLY likely to panic. We’re talking Sydney’s “I AM KING OF THE SALT” levels of reaction from me here. Literally, I would be curled up under my futon, poking my head out, and going, “This is my bubble of space. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED IN MY BUBBLE OF SPACE!”
Who’s to say there aren’t legal exceptions in place (through that new law that made Archon) for unusual methods of incarceration if needed through unusual abilities.
Remember, Archon was created KNOWING there’d be a super prison. It’s silly to think they didn’t put atleast some thought in how to imprisson supers.
I’m pritty sure regular people are already put in regular people jail just for risk of escape
A new law was enacted, in order for Archon to be created. So you may be right, it could be one of the provisions within that.
Although it depends on how well the existing prison laws, in their particular jurisdiction, were expressed. For example if they say “methods of restraint may not place undue risk of death on the prisoner”, they can actually use this method. Counter-intuitive though it may seem.
Unless a practical lesser means of restraining her can be shown to exist, which does not have a risk of death, then her risk of mortality is justified. She only faces the risk if she attempts to escape, but none if she does not (barring by accidental causes). Opal has as reduced a risk of death as could be found, which does not compromise the need to keep her detained.
Also, isn’t Archon a military organisation, and operating in a military capacity even when dealing with issues on american soil? i would hazard a guess that they might have different rules regarding, i dunno, battlefield prisoners or whatever is the best classification for the baddie mob.
HereticSmile, this is the first accurate thing I’ve heard about an excuse for why Opal might be in that cell, rather than the people who are trying to twist criminal law into something it’s not. Most of what Shen and DStaal are horribly wrong.
Yes, military law does act under different rules than civilian law. So if they try to claim that she’s an enemy combatant and the attack was one of terrorism, that might work. At least for HOLDING them. But if we have so much trouble even with holding people at Guantanamo without massive protests and claims by most of Obama’s administration about charging them as criminals instead of enemy combatants, it seems likely that he’d be the same way about at least Opal and Vektor.
I will leave Pander‘s comments to stand in their own right. As regards gendarmes, which is what Sydney and the rest of Arc-SWAT are (albeit that term has not been used in the comic), such a role does actually exist in various countries. The most famous of which is France. Which has both a national police force and the gendarmes.
Both of which are required to treat prisoners under civilian law. The fact that gendarmes are organised as a military unit is irrelevant to the role they play in society. This is identacle to what is being described for Archon.
So unless the suspects are being charged with terrorism offences (or are outright treated as an act of war, which is a possible approach that could be taken), thus getting into what Pander discussed, normal civilian criminal laws will apply.
(gives Yorp a doggie treat)
Whee!
[Instantly forgives Pander, for any earlier pedanticism.]
*nom nom nom*
*tail wagging contentedly*
Mumble. Murmur. Burp. Here, have one of my snacks!
*offers a juicy Scooby burger*
Opal and Vekter have established mens rea while resisting arrest, and even assaulting a federal officer (Stalwart) in Vekter’s case: Vehemence makes people want to fight, and Opal and Vekter tried to organize a retreat. This is clearly an action that was not influenced by Vehemence (in fact, he beat them unconscious for trying), because it it non-violent. It is still, however, resisting arrest. Vekter MIGHT be able to beat the assault charge based on mens rea, but Opal and Vekter very clearly resisted arrest of their own free will when they tried to run away.
Vehemence might have brought them there against their will, but they resisted arrest in a manner inconsistent with V’s influence. Mens rea.
Yes, Ariana said the only ones in cells have criminal records or open warrants, and Opal might even be a wanted felon, but Opal and Vekter are getting arrested for resisting arrest. I’m honestly surprised they haven’t already been arrested and charged, but perhaps they don’t need to be as they are both wanted felons? Perhaps they have been, and Ariana simply doesn’t feel like pointing them out? She didn’t note that Vehemence has been arrested and charged, since he obviously can’t claim influence by his aura.
They’ve been arrested. The cell Opal is in counts as arrest – and Pander saying she hasn’t been arrested is enough to prove he isn’t a lawyer. (Or at least, his field of law is far enough removed from this topic for him to be considered a layman on the topic.) They may or may not have been charged – we can’t tell, because nothing in these scenes would change based on that.
In short: Pander’s being a troll.
Actually…. people who’ve been on this forum for a while know I’m an attorney already. Being in a cell does not count as arrest. If I throw you into my basement and lock the door, you are not therefore arrested. Imprisonment is not arrest. Imprisonment is something which happens when you ARE arrested.
Also ‘her field of law.’
In short: You’re the one being a troll be resorting to namecalling instead of debate.
“An arrest is complete as soon as the suspect is no longer free to walk away from the arresting police officer” (First of multiple citations I could find.)
Being locked in a cell does not count as an arrest because you are not an officer of the law. This cell is just an extension of the arrest.
Sigh. No…. read what you quoted again.
‘as soon as the suspect is no longer free to walk away from the arresting police officer.’
There have been MANY cases about this and what constitutes ‘being free to walk away.’ Including telling the police, if they wake up in a cell (they obviously couldnt leave the cell while they were unconscious), ‘Am I free to leave?’ The police are then obligated to answer them, and tell them either yes or no. If yes, then they have to let her go, in which case all those precautions are violating their rights, and will HAMPER the police’s ability to get a conviction later if they later decide to arrest and charge her. If no, then they need to let her get an attorney as soon as she asks for one, which (thanks to the widespread knowledge of Miranda from popular culture) everyone knows that ‘they have a right to an attorney’ at which point they will ask for one, at which point said attorney will say everything I’ve been saying quite a few times if they’re even minimally competent.
Ah, but how do we know Opal can’t portal her entire cell to Australia to slowly depressurize it there and portal a cell sized chunk of radioactive waste in it’s place out of sheer spite? Cuz portals aren’t teleporters? She’s the one in charge of the portal, she could just make it outside the chamber and pull it over her chamber like slipping on a condom. Do we know her portals have to be near her to begin with? her cell is pressurized but I doubt the rest of the compound is water tight, so one portal just outside her cell and one at the bottom of the east river and she’s not only free, but she’ll be praised as a hero. Can we be certain her portals close if she doesn’t close them herself? incapacitating or killing her may wind up destroying the entire ecosystem, that’ll look great on arc-aegis’ resume.
number one rule of superpowers IRL is don’t blab about your powers and weaknesses to everyone you encounter. If yer invulnerable, wear fancy looking armor. If you’ve got super strength swing a vial of pepsi before you lift shit. If you open portals, fire a toy gun at the spot yer opening it in. Misdirect. Always.
ARC might assume that Opal’s power has a stronger portal size than portal number limit, as she was trying to mass-evacuate others through many single-person portals instead of a few large group portals. thus they assume she wouldn’t be able to take her whole cell anywhere
Also, the portals are stationary. Anything that can’t move can’t go through the portal, like her cell.
With the obvious exception of opening one under someone’s feet and having them fall in.
Let’s just hope that they haven’t locked her in one of Dabbler’s dimensional pockets (bag of holding). Opening a portal (portable hole) inside that could get messy.
Her portals can be mobile, such as when she redirected the “phrenology” (as clarified in the text post below that comic), and when she was porting her unconscious allies.
Actually that portal was sitting still. It was Mr. Amorphous that was moving. Opal just set the “exit” end of the portal to be right next to Max.
DaveB mentioned how the portal was set in motion to suck him (settle down Dabbles) through the portal and the portal was set to close the instant he was
We know that her portals closed when Vehemence Knocked her out
She might be able to portal her cell to Australia, but it would breach the gas line keeping her cell pressurized and kill her from the resulting explosive decompression.
To explain: there has to be a gas line to 1. pressurize the cell in the first place, 2. depressurize the cell when they’re done with it, and 3. gas her with sleepy gas and bring the pressure back up if she tries to open a small portal to depressurize her cell.
Also, the gas line has to be attached to a pump which requires electricity, and you can bet that the pump is on the far side of the prison and is hooked into the prison’s electrical network.
It’s unlikely that she can teleport the ENTIRE cell (she hasnt shown that ability – her portals seem to have had a limit on their size from what we’ve seen so far). But lets say she can – it doesnt solve the problem of the presurization of the cells with her ability to escape it.
You know, based on how many portals she was nearly able to make to port ALL of the downed combatants on “the red team,” she might actually be able to do it. The problem is that it apparently is very obvious, takes time to set up, and seems to take a lot out of her to actually pull it off. I’m pretty sure they’d simply pump a bit of sedative into the room first if she tried to do that, even if she was clever enough to port to, say, the bottom of the pacific ocean, and then sloooooowly rise up in intervals to decompress. She just wouldn’t have the time or energy to pull it off, even if she might have the power to technically do so.
Hey, Kevin has his regular arm and eye back! That’s nice.
Yup. And intentionally too, as opposed to being a continuity error. He reverted, to normal, at the end of the fight. Plus still had enough juice left to regenerate. Although he could have used his powers for extra pairs of pants instead. Or maybe a small gold bar, or some diamonds? I think he made a good call.
well…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis
This is a thing, so it’s not completely harmless to keep her pressurized…
She won’t be permanently held in that cell
Yup, just insane and paralized while at depth, if you are one of the people who react badly to it.
You’re making the assumption that there’s nitrogen in the atmosphere of her cell. Check out Hydrox. Nitrogen causes nitrogen narcosis. Helium causes high-pressure nervous syndrome. Hydrogen and oxygen are safe at the highest pressure a human has ever attempted. Also, extra oxygen makes it highly flammable (explodes with a spark), and it doesn’t contain enough oxygen to breath below about 4 atm, so if Opal depressurizes her cell, there could be explosions on the other side and she’ll pass out before reaching equilibrium–and passing out will close her portal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrox_(breathing_gas)
As Samuel L. Jackson said, “When you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you and mption.”
Beautiful as always. Keeping the guy who gets stronger through violence stoned…genius. As for the collars that regularly poison you…Deadman Wonderland already did it, unless that was a reference.
Can’t wait to see more.
Good luck
I like Vehemence “High-tech” solution. Very mellowing, from what I hear. lol
I find it interesting how many people are saying their detainment of Opal isn’t legal due to them deciding to charge her or not.
Ary has said they are only holding those with outstanding warrants and prior convictions, that means they have until the end of her trial for whatever they are holding her for now or the end of her sentence to charge her with the brawl.
They also have to hold them as part of the due process, little too late if she turns out to be an international serial killer and they let her go (not saying she is, also not saying she isn’t)
Notice how the only time different branches bring up inter-branch cooperation is when something goes wrong or a ‘person of interest’ was caught but let go?
Decided not to get into the convo about Opal. Just wanted to say that i got a real chuckle out of seeing Twilight Sparkle in there, though. Pre-Season 4 Twilight, in fact. (Yeah, I’m a Brony…)
You are not alone. Err not me though. I am more of a doggy person.
Eeyup. Now they just need to build a Orbital Friendship Cannon and Kevin’s powers will be harmless!
Just discovered this in the news: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/giant-hole-in-sun-is-50-earths-wide/ar-AAfvQi3?li=AAa0dzB
Being more related to the vote incentive pic than the current story, nevertheless, it seems Sydney’s going to have lots more opportunities to practice her aurora-writing…
I want that shirt. “I fought Arc-Swat and all I got was this stupid T-shirt.”
Have you tried brawling with a member of Arc-Swat and getting locked up? That method worked for Vehemence.
;)
I feel a compulsion to reply…
Such beautiful golden eyes in that kitty… KITTY?!
WOOOOF WOOOOOF!
Heeheehee. Wait, woof? *HISS*
I just wish I could remember where I found this picture. It’s been over a decade. Luckily I saved it to disk the moment I saw it.
Quick question:
We are being shown how Opal and Vehemence are being incarcerated, but we don’t actually see Maxima telling her crew. All that’s being shown “on screen” – so to speak – is her saying that nobody should worry because everything is being taken care of. The question then is this – is she actually letting her team in on the details, or is she just asking for their trust? Is their prison facility so hush-hush that she’s not even letting her teammates in on the details?
It may even be possible that Max doesn’t know all the details either…Need to Know & all that. After all, Max is in command of the SWAT team, not the Detention Facility.
This is most likely: not even Maxi knows the details
There needs to be a strict compartmentalisation maintained in Archon. Due to the potential for conflicts of interest between the police and the prison side of the criminal justice system. Even Maxima will need permission to enter the prison, and then only if she shows a valid need. And will require a guard to escort her.
Plus I doubt she is privy to all of their security. She does not have a need to know.
Only those aspects which might impact on Arc-SWAT being called in to help contain an escape attempt or prison riot need be provided. The pressurisation is something that could cause them to inadvertently kill prisoners, in such circumstances, if they were not informed. So it is perfectly correct that they be kept in the loop.
Other arrangements, such as their schedule for altering the pressure, in the
HaremOpal Containment Facility MK1, none of them have a need to know. Nor should they even be told that it exists. Maxima included.Does anyone know how many portals Opal can have open at one time/ how much control she has over the portals once open. Also aren’t vehemence’s abilities magical and so if they have an anti-magic field around his cell they won’t have to drug him. I’m certain there’s a mage somewhere that can do that.
Lots of portals (see https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1484). Enough control over one to force one around Stalwart so that instead of attacking Opal he attacked Maxima (https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1477); not sure about controlling multiples as
VehemenceKevin knocked her out…And yes, I’m sure that somewhere there is a mage (or an anti-mage) somewhere who could shut
VehemenceKevin down, but whether or not ARC has found that person, or if that person is reliable, is not known. Likewise what planet the person lives on…actually the only thing needed to put Kevin out of commission would be the Sanctuary spell, Sanctuary is a spell that prevents violent action from taking place within it’s effective area and the spell can be cast in an area for a large scale aura or on a person for a smaller scale mobile aura.
Due to the spells effect one can pretty safely assume that the spell Sanctuary dissipates all form of Vehemic energy within it’s effective range, meaning if someone put that spell on vehemence he’d be out of commission until that spell ended, which it probably never would since it would be pretty easy to renew it, since Vehemence could not do anything even remotely violent to stop it.
Enough that she was opening one man-sized portal for every unconscious member of her team (and maybe others too) so lots. Fairly extensive control too, as she was confident she could complete the evacuation, despite them being unconscious.
We saw a portal moving, so they do not have to be static. And she can clearly choose the size. The smallest I recall being arm-sized.
Various commentators seem to assume that, but personally I have no reason to believe that. It all looked like a powerful, if versatile, super power, to me. Most notably his ka-pants scene showed a sound effect, but completely lacked the distinctive graphics we always see when Dabbler or Arc-Light members are spell-casting.
The aggro aura Sydney saw w/the Truesight orb showed a lot of similarity to other spells that have been seen.
Indeed. But I take that just to be how the truesight orb shows any non-visible power to Halo. Be it magical, psionic or super in nature.
To my mind spell-casting involves some kind of incantation. This is a common convention, both in legend and fiction. Be it a word, gesture or the like. Which Dave is clearly supplying us when we see the distinctive spell-casting graphics. It is his world’s version of the chanting or incanting of Latin phrases that film or television might use.
Notably he has always followed the convention of us seeing the world the same way that Sydney would. To show us the incantation means she is seeing it. Which, given that it is always visible when Dabbler is casting, regardless of whether Sydney has the true-sight orb in hand, or not, means that normal people can see and/or hear it too.*
Possibly Vehemence might be able to silently cast spells, or not make the gestures, or whatever else the graphic represents. But there would have been no reason for him to conceal his casting, when creating his pants. Unlike the case that could be made for his aggro aura.
Finally there is no particular need to assume his power is magical, given that he is very clearly super-human. He can be achieving those effects with super-powers. Even what he mentions of his origin is consistent with that, and lacks any hint of mysticism, or an occult background.
* The “you can’t see me spell” being a particularly funny one, as a result. But one that just plays on the same kind of mind-tricks as “these are not the droids you are looking for”.
The spells in GrrlPower seem to be geared towards Glyph Magic, which means the caster(s) draw glyphs in the air or on objects in order to generate a magical effect, these glyphs usually form a distinct pattern or spell out specific words by the time the spell goes off, or stays around in case of an aura or continuous spell.
I am down with that.
It will also help the Girl Power the Movie director to figure out how to translate the comic into live action scenes. Please take note, Mr/Ms director.
DaveB made a couple of nice touches, which I think worked extremely well. The way Kevin’s dialogue starts in panel 7 and then brings you into panel 8 organically. Smoothly done.
Likewise the colour-coding convention for ‘speaking from another panel’ versus ‘speaking remotely, via an intercom’. Not one commentator expressed any problems with what could have been a slightly confusing scene otherwise. Intuitive enough that everyone seems to have followed it unthinkingly.
The My Little Pony Poster in Kevin’s cell is a nice touch. Though I think Care Bears or Strawberry Shortcake might have worked better. My Little Pony is a very violent series, when you get right down to it.
Well they could use the method of incarceration of supers that is used in the Champions universe I play in.
The prison is on the moon Ganymede and has walls made of a material a little bit stronger than Aluminum foil. The place is pressurized enough to keep the walls inflated, but a bad guy could if he wanted to break out. Although in so doing they end up committing suicide.
Do I understand correctly that the facility was deliberately designed to be so unsafe, that even those inmates not taking part in an escape attempt would be killed through no fault of their own and with no possibility of rescue, the first time anyone attempted escape …. ?
That is called negligent homicide. Possibly hundreds of counts thereof. Followed by a class action wrongful-death suit that will wipe out any remaining assets the prisoner’s estate might have left.
Yep. That way the other prisoners will actively stop any escape attempts by anyone.
or the one used in the movie “Outland” with Sean Connery. they stick them in a space suit and the suit goes into a ?dome under hard vacuum, that only has the air hose and a phone cable to the prisoner… somehow they are weightless, it’s been so long since i saw it, i don’t remember more details of it… it works pretty good too, at least for movie plots worth of “good”…
So assuming they have a way to hold Maxima, how exactly would ARC take her down? Dabbler is the second strongest they have and even she cant beat her. Some sort of surprise attack I would guess? The issue is that you get exactly one shot, since pissed off Max could level a city or a carrier task force with equal ease. You scratch that, dabbler is very smart and careful, despite her fighting max to a standstill. I w ould bet money that if the ships were down, do or die dabbler has an ace up her sleeve, either single use or expensive to use or has some really nasty side effects that could likely one shot Max.
You take out Maxima with teamwork. Keep her moving, keep her adjusting. Her weakness is her strength – that she can adjust her powers to different levels. Keep her needing all of them and sooner or later she’ll make a mistake, have one maxed out when it shouldn’t be. Once you’ve stopped her you keep the pressure up – full ‘defense’ leaves her basically immobile, which is exactly what you want. Go for that, and keep pressing her.
To be honest, I don’t think Dabbler is the second most powerful on the team anymore. Sydney has already stood up to Maxima’s blasting capabilities without any effort and has already been proven the second fastest flier. The Lighthook is pretty strong, we don’t know the upper limits of it yet and whether or not it could be used to restrain Max. Not to mention all that potential yet to be tapped on Sydney’s skill tree.
Lack of training aside, Sydney could easily be the #2 in pecking order, with room to be #1 someday.
Point of order: She has stood up to what Maxima fired at her without any effort. Maxima herself said that wasn’t her full strength on a blast – it was just what she felt safe firing at Sydney. (And even the explosion at the demo wasn’t full strength – and Sydney wasn’t at the center of it.)
You can’t assess Halo’s power vs Dabbler until they have fought each other. Things that can overcome one super will not work on another. A point raised in this very meeting, a few pages back. Sydney’s advantage is a versatile power-set. Dabbler just has an even more versatile one.
Note that the power rankings on the cast list factor experience into them too. Ultimately Sydney may become the most powerful super on the planet, bar none (or may not). Depending on what she unlocks on that skill tree. But, regardless of that, the more practice and training she has, the more effective she becomes.
Achilles, for example, has the potential to improve his rankings. Currently he is lower than he could be, because he does not apply himself. He has not learnt any unarmed combat or martial skills, for instance. Given his extended lifespan (and possible immortality) he could eventually become superbly skilled and thereby be a formidable opponent.
For the record, the lighthook is low end super strength. Sydney has lifted a car with it as her current best strength feat. Its on the super strength scale, but kinda low on it. We have yet to see a true test of her ppo. Right now her one big strength is her defense which is so far impenetrable. We dont know if max can break through, we dont know what it would take. But she HAS tanked a few angry vehemence shots with it, and a number of clearly powerful particle blasts, as well as blocking the fallout of a bigger boom for an entire squadron of other people.
Her speed is impressive, only surpassed by maxima atm, but I wouldnt be surprised if its less of a bonus in a fight than a detriment. Flying at mach 4 doesnt give you a lot of reaction time, you know? Most supers with super speed have a natural ability to process that information, sydney is a bog standard human holding an item that lets her move fast. Its like strapping you into a jet engine then telling you to react and turn on a dime. Drivers are told to make sure they have at least a two second reaction window for a reason. Do you have any idea how far you move at mach 4 in 2 seconds? Even if you had the ability to stop the instant you wanted to with no ill effects, thats just asking for trouble.
Very true. But one point has eluded you. The anti-vertigo effect the Fly Ball provides. Clearly it is giving Halo secondary abilities, over and above what is obvious. So she may have amplified reactions when using that at high speed.
And, as she triggers such things, I believe her skill tree is being passively filled out, in the background. It will only trigger when she needs to (or qualifies for) choosing something actively. Especially useful for things she is unlikely to stumble across by simple usage.
I believe DaveB has said that Dabbler has locked down Maxima in the past. The plan would revolve around forcing her to dump all her points into armor and keeping them there.
Dabbler also has illusions at her disposal. So she can potentially trick Maxima into mis-allocating her stats. Getting her to put her points into speed and/or strength, thinking that she can strike a decisive blow, when she cannot, would leave her with a weak defence. Allowing Dabbler to achieve a victory, rather than a tie.
I still think dabbler has a one off nuke, maybe a literal one she can use if all else fails.
He he. It always tickles me that the hairless apes view their ultimate weapon, as being what aliens might have. One thing we do know about Succubus is that they are highly fixated on one particular area. And atomic weapons aren’t useful for the libido.
But if they have chosen to work on weapons of mass destruction, they have both magic and super-science at their disposal. Nukes are probably like kindergarten toys, compared to what is available in the galactic community!
Didn’t have time to read every post to this thread… just wanted to say that Kevin Spacey’s Lex Luthor was pretty dang menacing. As well as several other roles he’s played.
That was all.
I want Vehemence/Kevin’s shirt. Give me that shirt.
Old Vehemence is living the stoners dream. Videogames, T.V., room service for all the munchies you want and all the premium mellow hash you can breath!
I wonder if anyone else has noticed the mistake ARC-Ageis has made with Opal?
Actually make that multiple mistakes.
Go on then, explain to the muggles! the only one i can think of at the moment is that if the room was pressurised/depressurised to such a point that a breach would kill opal, she wouldn’t be able to survive in said environment for any length of time. what was yours?
First off for the room.
Submarines, astronauts, and I am pretty sure the deep sea workers are evaluated to ensure that they will not Crack under the strain of their time restricted as they are by the pressure differential between their environment and the outside.
Opal has not been evaluated so there is the possibility of mental trauma coupled with physical damage.
If it happens LAWSUIT.
Second they have incarcerated her without following proper procedures.
Which can lead to her release when all charges dropped due to violation of her civil and constitutional rights.
And the for that one LAWSUIT.
Then if as was brought up earlier she is a foreign national, it raises the question, have they contacted her nations embassy as required by treaty.
All in all I would have to say ARC has screwed the pooch wit Opal.
No offense Yorp.
For the room: That’s only a problem with helium in the atmosphere. It’s called high-pressure nervous syndrome, and it’s caused by helium in the gas mix (helium is used to replace nitrogen to avoid nitrogen poisoning). You can use hydrogen instead.
For the incarceration: You don’t know that due process was not followed off-camera. If Opal is in a cell, she has a criminal record or outstanding warrant. If she has an outstanding arrest warrant…
For the foreign national: They know her legal name. Since they’re being polite and not treating her as an enemy combatant, and we know how thorough Arianna is, I think it’s safe to assume that if she’s not a U.S. citizen, Arianna has ensured that all laws are followed.
Reasonable. If she suffers harm, due to no fault of her own, then it is fair to claim compensation for that. And she was in their custody and therefore the responsibility lies with them. We can assume that she will have been medically assessed, mind (in fact we saw the fist stage of that with Harem’s triage). But I will readily grant that only so much can be done whilst the patient is unconscious.
Would that be fair to categorise it as a mistake though? I do not believe so. A judgement call had to be made to balance the public interest versus her individual rights. In my opinion they have made an equitable call, given the time, resources and limitations imposed by the situation (ie factoring in her portal creating power).
As such, if I were the judge hearing the lawsuit, I would grant compensation for her mental trauma and any physical injury. Plus such funds as necessary to cover ongoing treatment. But I would not fine Archon for being negligent. There was no means to conduct a fuller (conscious) evaluation, prior to incarcerating her, without her fleeing.
Just the same as if a aircraft makes a crash-landing in the ocean, and is sinking. There is no point evaluating the passenger’s ability to swim. They are issued their life-jacket and have to get out into the water, before going down with the wreck.
So you are saying that in the real world an unconscious prisoner is not put into a cell (after being medically assessed to be fit to do so)? Rubbish. They do so all the time. When they wake up a cop comes in and charges them. Or lets them go. Provided it is handled within the time constraints allowed (typically 48 hours) this is following due process.
Lawsuit denied.
Such notifications are done as time permits. It may have already been done. Or it may happen in the next day. That has absolutely zero effect on her domestic rights in the country who’s jurisdiction she falls.
All that happens in such situations is the foreign country bleats about requesting the obligations be fulfilled. Or, if they are really serious, summon the ambassador, of the offending nation, to give them a good talking to.
A few if they consider her a suicide risk. Less if they do not. And we can assume that normal precautions have been taken like properly searching her, as we have no indications to the contrary.
Putting her shoes on her, when in bed shows bad form though.
The TV and remote could be a risk, given her powerset, but not if she is blocked from watching anything other than Netflix, as may be the case. If Opal has similar restrictions to Harem, then having access to live TV could be a major risk. Especially if she is feeling suicidal.
Just imagine what she could do if she saw a presidential address, for example. They might never get the Opal stains out of the Oval Office.
The fact that her cell is a death trap is the only real mistake. But even that would be understandable under the circumstances as how else do you imprison someone with the ability to open a doorway to anywhere they want to go? If you cant block her powers, all you can do is make her not willing to use them. I suppose they could pick a nonlethal level of pressurization. Enough to cause her crippling pain wherever she goes so they can track her down, treat her, then put her back in the cell and suggest she not try that again.
Im pretty sure she just has netflix to watch, so no worries about a live news broadcast letting her kill herself just to strike out at someone to be malicious even in death.
My internal head-canon has the pressure at the low end of ‘fatal’ for sudden decompression – you’d die without medical treatment, but could survive with immediate treatment. It lines up with everything they tell Opal – she’d likely die, it would be painful, and without treatment it would be fairly quick – but it’s not actually 100% fatal. In fact, if she were to try to escape and then immediately port back because she realized her mistake that would be most of the treatment.
It’s also cheaper and easier to set up than some of the more exotic high-pressure systems that have been discussed here, as low-end fatal is about the same as high-end ‘standard air’ pressure. As a bonus, visitors could come and go with decompression times in the range of hours instead of days.
I want to say standard air works at 9 atm, the atmosphere that killed everyone instantly (one person actually exploded) in the 83 Byford Dolphin accident, but I’m not certain.
Their obviously pumping gas into “Kevin’s” cell. Now the question really is what kind of gas is being pumped in, and what ever the gas is it is obviously a mood inhibitor of some form keeping him from getting angry. Either that or they have him high on pot which actually can make something like 1 in 10k angry. Either that or some other very high number, I do know its a very high one either way….
Its pot. They have him high on pot. Thats the entire joke. The muchies, the watching kirby cartoons and laughing at it. The entire panel is a joke on pot.
i just absolutely lost my head laughing at vehemence’s prison one i got the joke, took a second, not going to lie. HEHEHEH. still laughing as i type!
Isn’t keven one of the names of the minions from despicable me?
Yup. Not exactly terrifying though. Even when he is bigger than a building.
… Every time I look at that last panel, I hear “Smoke weed everyday” in my head. Anyone else have a similar reaction?
Not me. Especially as I seem to be immune to it. Only tried it the twice mind, but it was verifiability the ‘good stuff’ (very good actually), and I was being supervised by an expert. Others were getting the full effect. But I had not so much as a hint of anything, on either occasion.
*sigh*