Grrl Power #288 – Hearts and mind fingers
Those of you who are not huge fans of Arianna will find this page cathartic. I’m not sure how much of the comic will be dedicated to the PR and political side of things. I suspect very little. Just the occasional reminder than it’s a thing.
A quick googling tells me it’s probably not a big deal getting properly loaded modern ammo wet. Long term storage? I assume it’s not ideal. Sure if you put it in something that’s water tight first, which if you’re going to store ammo in a well for some reason is probably how you’d do it. Sydney is less of an expert on the matter than I am, and it’s also possible she’s thinking about black powder charges or something.
Arianna isn’t about to turn to the press and lead in with the worst case version of events, she’s mostly just venting for a moment. She probably already has a plan of attack, and hopefully it’s something more nuanced than the oft-relied-upon-by-politicians flat out denial of facts.
I thing the font I used for Max’s gravelly voice might not be the best for the size it appears in the comic. Hopefully it’s legible enough, and it will only be around for a few more pages.
Here’s the link to the new comments highlighter for chrome, and the GitHub link which you can use to install on FireFox via Greasemonkey.
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I am surprised that fans of the various villains, such as Heavenly Sword, are not doing lots of “whooting”. There is a good chance of some of them being exonerated of their actions, or given leniency in decisions made by the courts.
Leaving open the possibility of some of them being eligible for recruitment into Archon.
Let the festivities commence!
Everybody seems to want to convert all of our villains. You’re gonna eliminate all the for hire grunts of the evil orgs and leave ARC that much closer to just dealing with natural disasters half the time! :-P
*raises protest sign* “Save Our Villains!”
(yeah I know you also said the other thing it just struck me funny that if everybody got the converts they wanted then the Hero vs. Villain ration would be highly stacked towards Hero for a comic… )
I am firmly of the belief that the people who contributed large amounts of money for the cameo appearances should be the only supers from the group of villains who get to be converted. And only if they want their characters to be good guys. However, the arc team has quite a few characters already, even amongst the supers, and many more when you add all the normals attached to the team. So adding a pile more might be a big mistake.
All the rest can rot in jail or be recurring villains, I don’t care which. But I’d also support the cameo purchasers being the “most recurring” villains if that’s the way they want their characters to go.
I’d settle for occasional plugs directing people to the various storylines I’ve written for Breakpoint and others. If the author deemed them worthy, of course…
Ya know, you guys seem to be turning this into a false dichotomy. It is entirely possible that most/all of the supers in the fight will turn out to be neither heroic nor villainous, and will simply never appear in the comic again.
After getting beaten so badly, a life of supervillainy just isn’t going to look appealing to most sensible individuals. Of course there are hard-core crazies and psychos in this crowd. Not just Vehemence but Mach The Knife and maybe Death Toll. So a few might not get the point first time around. Others might just get to craving the rush of daring to beat the system. Like Jabberwokky or Heavenly Sword.
Several, like Hex, the Hairdresser, and the two who helped with Vehemence definitely seem like ones who were likely ‘coaxed’ somehow by Vehemence (although Blue Hair seems like the type of person who could be talked into it without any vehemic power manipulation to begin with – because he’s just STUPID). The second person who attacked Max also seemed to be doing it mostly out of unrestrained rage without seeming to have any thought behind it.
Others like the fist girl don’t seem to have had any real reason to be there.
Some like Mach the Knife or whatever his name is, Heavenly Sword, Lee Press On Nails, and Jabberwocky were probably there because they’re either anarchists or are challenge junkies, more than just being ‘criminals’ – so it’s POSSIBLE that there was some vehemic-power-based persuasion there. Even if there wasnt, any lawyer worth their salt would bring that up and probably win with it – making it more of a problem to even try to put them in jail (and a PR disaster for Archon).
Some, like Vektor and Opal seemed to be more of a leadership role. But Vehemence himself did say he manipulated Vektor. And Opal seemed to be there because of Vektor. So…. again a good lawyer would use that. And they’d likely get off as well.
Honestly, the only one other than Vehemence that seems to have had a real ‘intent’ where there doesnt seem to be much of ‘manipulation’ to cause them to do what they did was Shadow Boxer guy…. because he seemed to be there to ‘get famous’ – that doesnt seem like he needed much manipulation – definitely not vehemic-level manipulation. Still… a good lawyer… probably can get him off too.
Vehemence is the only one that seems like a slam dunk for the prosecution.
it’s extremely easy to scare monger juries into convictions. And these people are supers. And most of them look pretty… well… out there. Any half competent prosecutor could scare a jury into throwing the book at most of these guys, regardless of their actual guilt
Let us hope that they get a fully competent defence lawyer then. If they are guilty, I would not want them to get let off, on appeal, because of any miscarriage of justice that might come to pass by having an inequitable trial.
They won’t. Unless they have money they’ll be getting a public defender.
Seriously, this is what happens to real scary looking (read usually black) minorities in the current justice system. It is often much less about proving guilt then it is making the person look morally evil and scary.
There is no doubt that a big firm would jump at the chance to represent some of those superhumans (except Vehemence), pro bono. It’s perfect publicity for any firm.
Better call Saul?
when the objective is conviction (read not rich or famous enough) the defendant will be brought in in cuffs, a prison jumpsuit, and without proper hygiene but if they have enough fame or money they are brought in in a suit, clean shaven, combed hair, and with just an officer “escort”.
There’s at LEAST reasonable doubt. And even if a jury was to convict them, there’s definite appeals, and on appeal there’s no jury – it’s judges – and judges are not going to be as easily swayed by anything outside of the law. And based on the law, reasonable doubt = do not put the person in jail. And that can be argued for everyone EXCEPT Vehemence, even though I think at least half of the superhumans at that fight probably didnt need any vehemic coaxing. It’s still reasonable to think they did, based on Dabbler’s latent abilities and Vehemence’s own statements.
+1
Everyone is forgetting one of the most lucrative options for most of the newly revealed supers – The entertainment industry. Imagine the ratings if a TV network were to have a Big Brother style reality show with assorted supers in it. The weekly challenges they could put them through could be interesting. The movie industry could film their action/fantasy/sci-fi movies using real actors and save on the post-production CGI costs.
Then there is the possibility of the super-sports league if they can find enough to participate with comparable abilities. We could have a Super Bowl with actual Supers! (They could at least get a few to perform at halftime for that other Super Bowl). Some companies would probably hire celebrity super spokespersons. Note to the hair care industry – have I got the guy for you!
In the publishing industry a comic book company could hire an unknown super and build a series around his or her power set. Imagine going to a comic book convention and actually meeting the super portrayed in the comic.
Could I have a kiss, Sydney, rather than your autograph? And you totally should have won that Halo look-alike contest! Just how did you meet DaveB? Does Dabbler actually tie him up and do stuff with his mind?….
From Sydney, I would want a long discussion regarding just about anything that came into either of our addled brains. And her autograph. And maybe, just maybe, her phone number.
From Dabbler, I’d want a kiss, and damn the consequences!
Sydney might very well spray a stranger with mace if a stranger runs up to her asking for kisses.
Or maybe that’s me. Nah, I’m pretty sure Sydney would also do that as well.
Dabbler, on the other hand….
It would be worth it, if she then felt sorry enough about doing that, to kiss and make up. :-)
you’r mistaking her lunch breath for mace. it’s ok it happened before.
While this is essentially true- it is probable that at least some- like Comb-man the Barberian, for example- are not genuinely villainous by nature and even more of the combatants are likely to consider the pounding they got tonight and decide that this is not what they want out of a career, that is not the real dichotomy.
The real dichotomy is between people who (apparently) believe that all or most of the participants in the evening’s donnybrook ought to get off scot-free and those who (apparently) believe that all the non-Arc participants ought to be given the electric chair.
The reality is that both sides are probably going to be disappointed- there’s no way that the courts would allow a precedent to go onto the records that would allow this sort of wholesale mayhem to go without some form of punishment- and I use the word advisedly, because it has little to do with justice- but, at the same time, they would need to present a reasonable facade to the media, which means that they also can’t simply find all of them guilty and liable for the very worst crimes their fertile minds can come up with.
Hex didn’t seem particularly villainous either. For the first half of the fight she was just floating there trying to think of how to be useful.. Then she attacks Max, then veers away when she’s not doing ANYTHING effective to Max, then as soon as she hits the ground she is asking herself why she’s even there or why they’re all even doing this.
The firing afterwards is just because she gets freaked out by squirrels.
Don’t really “believe” either way. Just like to help people see that certain things are possible.
They have V dead to rights. He’s big, powerful, and likes to make a bit of a show. His performance tonight should make him an easy place to put as much of the blame as possible.
Well, one possibility could be to assign those recruited to different cities, with the main team staying in archon HQ – and if the local supers can’t handle a local situation, the main team is called into action – giving the recruited ‘villain’ a cameo without needing to have them all around all the time :)
“Recruitment”? We could never give convicted criminals jobs in law enforcement. They’re here under close-supervision parole!
Close super-vision.
Mr Amorphous, Heatwave, and Achilles were actually going the vigilante route and joined archon to avoid going to prison :)
The main difference between Mr. Amorphorous, Heatwave & Achilles, compared to those who where at the restaurant to start a fight, is that the ARC-members were trying to uphold the law when they got caught…The “villain” fighters tonight weren’t trying to do any such thing at all.
Vigilanteism is still a crime though – and they didnt have the possible excuse of a vehemic coaxing to make them do something which they may otherwise not have done :)
What’s the point in rooting for the bad guy if there just going to jump ship and be a “hero,” now? We like them because there bad. Having them switch sides now just defeats the point.
Heh. I was all for them being executed, or if that option was not available, throwing them into prison and welding the door shut! I do not approve of cop killers. As such, I never opened my heart to any of them. Although some were cute, or showed occasional redeeming features, I remained unrelenting.
But there were an awful lot of fans of them, many of whom were making suggestions that their own favourite should join Archon. So I was just opening the door, if they wanted to engage in their fantasies. Previously they were unrealistic. Now they are… less unrealistic.
Although it is worthy of note that Heavenly Sword (if I remember correctly) was originally designed as a hero, to be on the team. And got bumped out, in favour of one who is now cannon.
But that was done because DaveB recognised that the cast list was packed full. So please do not get your hopes up too much by my comment. Even now it may not happen.
Of course, if he kills one off, there is room for a replacement….
Peggy, Peggy, please report in, or I will start blubbering!
+a whole zoggin’ lot!
Want to see a hale-and-hearty Peggy in the extremely neat future just to assuage my anxieties.
Also, for the record: while I wouldn’t mind seeing Breakpoint reappear at some point, I would not want her to become a hero; her anti-establishment feelings are too strong a part of her character.
Jabberwokky was the near miss actually.
In a hugely significant way, Jabber has much the same attitude as Math when it comes to seeking out a challenge…The major difference is that Math tries to find his challenges legally, where there’s “expressed mutual consent” to the challenge.
Let’s face it, someone with Math’s skill level might have stood a good chance of harming even Anvil, back at HQ…But he was expressing himself in expressly non-harmful action. Jabber doesn’t seem like the kind of person to care much about the “mutual consent” angle.
If Peggy hadn’t checked in off-panel Max would be personally looking for her, SOP be damned. And if she was hurt, somebody would not be able to find a hole deep enough to hide in this side of a grave.
Hey, now that they’ve all met each other some of them could set up as an alternative “heroic” team, perhaps in a more Heros-for-Hire or Thunderbolts or general merc style than the Big Government Team mold that is ArcSwat. They’ve even got time to bond while being processed, potentially.
I can just picture an anti-big-government super-team calling themselves Sons of Liberty. I can also imagine ArcSwat having to put them down after one person too many calls them out for being MGS2 ripoffs.
For now Archon is the only game in town. They may establish branch offices elsewhere later but no competition allowed. That said some corporation might try to hire supers as troubleshooters. How that goes could be a story line of it’s own.
There is bound to be competition of some sort. PS238 is exploring some of the possibilities in a setting like this. Whilst I would not want to follow one of those in detail, * the points where they overlap with this story, as told from our protagonists’ points of view, should be fascinating.
For instance, I really hope we get to see super-construction worker in a good, steady, day job, now that he has sworn off crime (as seen in Maxima’s utopian vision). I would love it if he was a bystander, who lent a hand someday.
Even just a cameo of that, would be fun. Especially if we see him, from time to time, in the background, working on super-battle-repairs. A potentially hazardous role that a tough super, like him, could get a decent salary from.
And, if there is something critical that needs repairing, like a dam, there would be good reason for the heroes to interact with him, if there is still an ongoing super villain threat. Anvil is a big enough girl that she probably finds that normals are either intimidated by her, or treat her as an exotic challenge. But, if she were to be posted on guard duty, on the dam, I could see some shipping going on.
But, drifting back to the point, although he could be employed in isolation. Equally he might be part of a supers’ job agency, or a firm that specialises in highly hazardous construction work. That needs several supers on the payroll, along with other non-super specialists and/or
cannon fodderwell paid, heavily insured, highly valued valued ancillary staff.* Not unless it had some other significant hooks to pull me in. Then a spin-off series might tempt me.
if they aren’t villains, I suspect their reaction would more be “He made me do WHAT?” than “I got away with starting a superfight!!!”- honestly, though, I agree with those that say that at least some of those there are dubious about being redeemable, though I’m not sure I would put Heavenly Sword on the list. (To me, HS was showboating about as much as Sydney was. If you assume the villains aren’t arguing about V’s aura making it seem rude not to fight, then her behavior actually makes sense- PLUS, she freaked when it looked like someone would get their eye put out. I posit that shows an underlying morality that could translate to her normally merely being a bit of a showoff.
However, there are three characters who I consider to be likely highly dubious in redeemability. Vehemence- he’s irredeemable, and I would, frankly, support execution of him if it was the real world.
Opel- judging by her talking about the effect it would have, she knew they wanted to start a superbrawl, which means she was probably not actually effected by V’s aura in the first place. she’s probably not totally irredeemable, but it would probably require a “heel realization” to quote TV Tropes.
Vekter- he’s the one I’m least certain of. With him, it depends on how much he planned out.
some characters, however, are fairly obviously redeemable- Hex clearly realizes mid-fight she screwed up- and I do want to point out we don’t know when V put up the “get people to fight” bit of the aura, as opposed to the “get people to fight regardless of consciousness” bit- and HS, as I pointed out, depends on her reasoning.
I agree on your various points. Vehemence clearly having no mitigation here. In addition to all the other crimes he did attempt to murder a policewoman.
There is a slight difference between guilt and redemption mind. One that his status as a world top-tier super might bring into play, at a later date. Should the country or the world face a threat that cannot otherwise be overcome he actually is someone who could be considered in a ‘Dirty Dozen’ kind of role.
The reason why I say this is because he had a very clear opportunity to kill Halo, along with a major motive, in that she has a power which can (and at the time was) blocking his own. Yet he chose not to.
Whilst his disregard of that he caused to others, and his willingness to kill Maxima, indicate that he is immoral, this one action indicates that he is not irredeemable. There is some goodness in him, which could be called upon in an emergency.
Opal and Vekter, in addition to your points, are obvious ring-leaders (albeit also pawns of Vehemence). As such public opinion in the matter would have a bearing on any judicial decisions. They were clearly operating independently of Vehemence, much of the time, something which detective work, by Arc Light should be able to prove.
Given that it was demonstrated that the effects of the aura do not persist, when cut off,* this would indicate a sustained degree of intent, which was not affected by the aura. So only their actions whilst Vehemence was near enough to affect them could be given any mitigation, but would not reach the threshold of exoneration.
Hence why I listed the options separately, as the majority of the minions would pass the threshold. They are protected by ‘reasonable doubt’ whereas the ringleaders have lost that. (with the appropriate supporting evidence I mentioned).
* And by implication when out of range. We can tell that there is a maximum range simply because the rest of the city was not affected by it. Which is necessary as Halo’s vision confirming the radius would not be admissible, as evidence, given its classified nature.
The real question of the day is did Leon manage to stop the feed mid fight and “help” lose the footage of the Vehemic aura fight from the drive in the newsman? He would still have camera footage from various unbroken tactical glasses, but need not give the press a freebie.
News VAN —-0876087608760760876y86986-987-98 spell check fail
I suspect that much depends on whether or not he, and Zeph, and the rest of the rooftop brigade were also affected by the aggro aura.
Haven’t seen any of those guys for a while.
They were behind a “nothing here, move along” shield. How that might handle the aggro aura who knows. I’m betting not very well unless Gwen had a chance to alter it.
Douglas Adams would have referred to their “cover” as an SEP (Somebody Else’s Problem) Shield…
;)
Just an interesting thought I had while reading the comments- one that I couldn’t decide where to place, since it addressed a couple of different people’s arguments regarding the letter and execution of the law in the U.S.
First, a disclaimer- as someone before me stated, I am not a lawyer. I would never, ever attempt to represent myself in a criminal case and, if I could help it, I would want an attorney for any civil proceedings I was obliged to sit. That said, I work with a whole bunch of law enforcement professionals and, like many people here, I read a whole bunch more.
The argument has been made repeatedly that people accused of a crime are innocent until proven guilty; this is, in fact, the letter of the law, but it is not the reality in many, many cases. The simple fact is that law enforcement professionals are accorded a greater reliability than the accused in almost all criminal trials. What this means is that being arrested, while it is not legally the same as being convicted, is often functionally the same.
Second, there is, in fact, recourse for people who have been wrongfully accused and arrested- it’s also been mentioned several times: arrests can be expunged. It rarely happens, since it requires a judge to sign off on it, but it might make sense in a case like this. In any case, it is incumbent on the person who was arrested to make the attempt to have the record expunged.
Third, I really, really doubt that any of the participants in this night’s fracas could be given a position on the team in the near future- much as I’d love to see some of them (like Breakpoint) again, I imagine ARC would absolutely require that they had a period of clean living- and probably that their arrest records were successfully expunged- before they could even be considered for a job with the team in any capacity.
Finally, despite it being kind of unfair, Maxima is absolutely correct in her determination to arrest all the perpetrators. They may be innocent of wrongdoing or they may not, but that is the court’s purpose. Given, police officers have broad discretionary powers and Maxima would be entirely within her rights to simply handwave it away, but if she did, she would almost certainly be reprimanded, if not fired outright. Simply put, there was too much damage, both to property and to individuals, for this to be summarily dismissed.
There. Glad to get that off my chest. Nice to be home from work…
Whisakedjak, I agree with pretty much everything you said. The law in general and courts in particular tend to be slow to embrace completely new ideas so something like mind control is going to take them a while to wrap their heads around. They usually try to fit new things under existing precedent so my guess would be that they’ll try to treat it like brainwashing or mental programming which could go either way in court. Any trials related to this event are going to come down to ARC members’ testimony as there is video footage of the villains committing their crimes. If ARC sides with them they will likely get off. If ARC wants them to go to jail they probably will.
Agreement.
Whatever might be claimed (and I remain VERY skeptical about the “V’s aura made us do all of it” claims), the simple fact is that they very publicly beat down on some Federal agents, caused a noticeable amount of property damage and severely traumatized at least one squirrel..
It is inevitable that they will all have to answer a bunch of questions from the authorities before they leave.
He had it coming!
I consulted a pair of world-renowned experts and they absolutely agreed with Yorp on this point.
Squirrels are evil.
at a minimum, it’s quite reasonable to say- like Maxima is- “we’d like to sort it out at the station, not here”- fundamentally, “mind control”- which is what V’s aura is- is an affirmative defense. (“yes, I did it, but…” not “No I did not”) and it’s reasonable to want to ensure that there is not going to be a round 3 breaking out as soon as they leave.
Moving back to mind control, may I suggest Law and the Multiverse. THey specialize in comic book (promarily) legal issues and how they would likely play out in real life court. I’ve pasted one link below but there are several articles on mind control.
https://lawandthemultiverse.com/2010/12/30/mind-control-made-me-do-it/
Replying to myself (poor taste). Their Alphas article also brought up a good point that I forgot about.
https://lawandthemultiverse.com/2012/09/28/alphas-pilot/
The prosecution has to prove the elements of a crime, but the defense has to prove the elements of a defense. So proving that they were mind controlled? May be a valid defense IF the defense can prove it. The prosecution just has to prove they committed the crime. Extenuating circumstances (mind control) is on the defense to prove.
This is more commonly seen in the insanity plea (and why it is actually so rarely used in real life). It basically shifts burden of proof from prosecutor (did they do it) to defense (did they have a justifiable reason to do it or extenuating circumstances beyond their control).
Yup. Commented on that earlier. :)
While the articles are intellectually interesting and probably right from a theoretical legal standpoint the reality is that the legal system is slow to embrace change. In actual court chances are the judge will go with whichever direction ARC pushes, either for clemency or for punishment.
Consider this, back in this strip https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1420 one of the villains actually surrendered and said he didn’t know why he was there because he was a hairdresser. To me this implies that while they have been initially pushed mentally into the fight, they still retained enough self awareness to surrender when he realized he was over matched. Did it take the realization that he was about to get curb stomped break through the haze of whatever voodoo V did to get them there? I think many of the others will have a harder time proving they were manipulated though. Also until the fight V didn’t have much power to work with so any violent aura would have to be much more limited in power and scope. He could have been very persuasive on the ringleaders who were already inclined to violence, and then used them as seeds to spread the violence around to others.
It did not look like he was afraid, in the least. He appeared resigned, to having to fight, then was relived when it turned out that it was not required.
My personal interpretation of this, is that he is a pacifist, which simply meant that the aggro aura had a lot harder time filling up his rage bar. He felt the rage, and the only outlet appeared to be killing cops.
But when asked to wait, whilst an urgent issue was dealt with, that rage had no focus, he was getting time to gather his thoughts, reflect on things. And then was presented with the option of not fighting.
Relief follows, and he happily takes that route. The aggro aura has been fought off, by virtue of him not being the type to get mad, or resorting to fighting. So his calm nature has reasserted itself firmly.
Even now you can see he has a curious look on his face, trying to understand the strange things that have happened to him. And he has an extremely defensive body posture, with his hands raised across his chest.
Or, maybe, he is just figuring out how he will cut Maxima’s hair, and whether he can do something with Sydney’s bangs? And his fingers are miming out the job, unconsciously.
But, either way, he is not agitated, unlike the guy next to him. Despite the fact that the other guy’s attitude is highly understandable, and even normal, under the circumstances.
The Hairdresser said he was along because he was just following his buddies, but once it was clear it was not going to be a fun time and someone suggested ‘well you can just surrender’ he said ‘okay’. Like everyone else he was there of his own free will, no magical compulsions to be there involved. Really, people end up in trouble all the time because they just went along with their buddies on something they don’t need some magical force to make them go along.
Hey Y’all!… Watch THIS…
one of the more effective oral intoxicants…
True, but an even halfway decent lawyer is going to bring up Vehemence as reasonable doubt.
I mean, a lot of these people likely never have had any record at all. How does one go from that to ‘lets fight government superhero cops’ – it does seem implausible that it was ENTIRELY from ‘going with your buddies’
I think I pointed it out elsewhere, but the buddies didn’t necessarily fill him in on the exact nature of the outing. Maybe he just was one of those guys that would jump off a bridge because his buddies did it.
Then there’s still a lack of mens rea. No mens rea, no conviction. Same can be said for several others who were there, other than the barberian.
I would probably bet on something like a probationary period or warning for some (the guy who turned himself in for instance) while others might be sentenced to community service or something. Which would of course be supervised by Archon. It is also probable that some will officially join Archon as soon as they get the chance. It does occur to me that there will probably be at least one villain who decides to go double agent in order to provide Intel to the Association of Free Super-Villains (acronym still under development). V will definitely do time of some kind although I really don’t know enough legal speak to know where or how he might be serving it.
I’m calling Shenanigans man! SHENANIGANS!!
If the Barber/hairdresser guy was able to surrender and even happy too the others don’t get a break… yeah everybody was effected by the aura but it was only turned up later on in the fight. Now -maybe- its possible that he could have made them fight but that aura must have a limited AOE so no… only the barber guy can go after processing, the others will have to work something out.
I agree. The only evidence of mind control is that Halo mentioned it, and partway through the fight with Vehemence everybody (everybody!) started fighting each other until Halo put up her shield around him. Given that no one was fighting at first, and then it was a good guys versus bad guys scenario, there is no reason to believe any form of mind control took place except when everyone was fighting one another.
However you feel about the possibility of Vehemence using magical influence to assemble Team Evil, there is no evidence to support the theory and the existing evidence of mind control strongly suggests there was no such influence. Personally I like the notion – Vehemence is an intelligent man, and would see the value of more subtle uses of his power. But I wouldn’t dare bring it up as an argument in court without any shred of evidence.
Wouldn’t the prior histories of Team Evil be evidence of mind control?
Let’s say there were 10 people who had been peaceful, law-abiding citizens their whole lives, and they all drank from the same pitcher of Kool-Aid. Right afterwards, they suddenly went on a violent rampage and assaulted a group of policemen. I think there would be DARN good reason for thinking the Kool-Aid was drugged, even if you couldn’t get a sample to prove it.
So here we have a group of people who attacked ARCSWAT, right after associating with a person who’s known to use at least one type of violence-inducing mind control. If many of them had never done anything remotely like that in their entire lives, that’s a pretty good indication that there might be something fishy going on.
Of course, that doesn’t let the members of Team Evil off the hook for anything else they might have done. Mach the Knife, in particular, seemed like a cold-blooded killer who’d probably killed before. ARC would be well-advised to take fingerprints & DNA, and check that knife for blood samples to see if they could tie him to any outstanding murders. If they find anything, they can toss him in jail regardless of whether he’s found innocent of the attack at the restaurant.
For that matter, I think ARC has enough leverage right now to get fingerprints and such from all of them. They’ve just been handed a really good set of suspects for any crimes involving superpowers. “The bank vault was torn open with super-strength? Check to see if the prints match any of the bricks we questioned after the restaurant incident.” “The murder victim was hit with a force beam? See if it matches our samples of Halo Light’s blast pattern.” And so on.
No, I don’t think that would be sufficient, although it would definitely be taken into account- after all, any accused criminal begins his career with no prior arrests. The best they can hope for is that there is sufficient evidence that, adding it all up, a reasonable jury would conclude that they were mind-controlled throughout. Note, I disagree with Yorp’s assertion that the level of evidence needed here is might have been controlled; given that this is a case where the act of the crime can easily be proven, it is incumbent on the defense to prove that the intention was, in fact, absent- and that is a very, very hard sell, indeed.
“any accused criminal begins his career with no prior arrests.” — That’s the main reason why I specified multiple people in my example. If one person goes bad, shame on him. If a bunch of people all go bad at the same time, it’s hard to believe it was just coincidence.
Not to mention that, as I understand it, most violent offenders have a history of delinquent behavior that often goes back to a young age. The violent behavior usually doesn’t just pop out of nowhere one day. *Some* members of Team Evil seemed naturally violent, but the hairdresser at least seemed like a normally well-behaved person. (Obviously I could be wrong about that; he could be a Sweeney Todd serial killer for all I know. Like everyone else here, I’m just guessing his personality based on a few lines of dialog and some body language.)
Quite a lot of the others seemed very ….. accustomed to achieving their ends via violence on one level or another – Jabberwocky, the Shadow-dude, Gummy Greenhair, the Glowy-talon guy, Heavenly Sword, Hex, the Bomb-thrower, Concretia, the list goes on.
The hairdresser guy was not necessarily the ONLY non-violent one in the bunch, but we certainly didn’t see any others. So very possibly there AREN’T any others. Unless, of course, they were all hding.
Possibly. I don’t think we have enough information to be certain one way or the other.
But there is one piece of circumstantial evidence that implies that most of Team Evil was acting out of character: the fact that Team Evil was bigger than the estimated number of combat-capable supers (villainous or otherwise) in the entire USA. If they were normally inclined to do things like assault cops in broad daylight in front of a film crew, they probably would have had criminal records before now. That should have put enough of them on ARC’s radar to bump up the estimates, even if this is an international coalition.
First paragaph, willingly conceded.
But I doubt Team Evil was one group per se – next to no teamwork shown, and from the in-battle dialogue, at least some of them barely knew each other. More like it was an agglomeration of separate groups and individuals gathered for this occasion. The connections were vvia being acquainted, directly or indirectly, with the organizers.
By what he said, Hairdresser guy came along basically because of peer group pressure – some other people he knew were groing and invited (?) him along.
No indication that this was an international coalition, though that cannot be wholly discounted either. But no one did any cussing in foreign langiages (a sure-fire indicator in the comics) so, again, I doubt it. But considering that this is based in the USA, and depending on how widely Team Evil cast their recruitment, I suppose there could be some ringers from Canada or Mexico.
Just as a complete off-topic aside: I actually do most of my cussing (when I can be persuaded to cuss at all, which is rare, at least in speaking- I’m much coarser in text) in foreign languages. Russian and German, in particular, sound wonderfully (heh) vehement!
My wife is Chinese, and she refuses to teach me any of their really good swearwords (though I suspect that she uses them sometimes).
I like the way that one character in The Matrix preferred cursing in French…He described it as “like wiping your @$$ with silk.”
:D
Afrikaans is best. You could be reading out a recipe, yet it would sound like you are cursing them seven ways to hell!
That’s not evidence of mind control, just because their estimates for the number of supers around was off just shows many of them were simply not active in a fashion that they were caught yet. Look at Vehemence himself, they had no idea at all someone like him existed until they put together an obvious super-team and gave him motivation to create a public spectacle. At least some of them have certainly attacked (and probably killed) people before, including cops they just weren’t caught. They all obviously have done things to reveal their powers to others since Vehemence couldn’t have found them to talk into things in the first place and no one with the ability to detect super-powers seems to exist in setting to locate such people (and from the spiel we’re given going out and randomly invading people’s privacy to determine if they were supers or not doesn’t seem the kind of behavior you can expect from ARC).
“That’s not evidence of mind control, just because their estimates for the number of supers around was off just shows many of them were simply not active in a fashion that they were caught yet.”
IMHO, that actually *IS* evidence that they were acting out of character. Even if they’re all career criminals, they all went straight from “Let’s keep a low profile, avoid witnesses, and not get caught” to “Let’s commit mass murder on national television”.
V had a motivation to break cover: it was an opportunity to acquire unprecedented levels of power. The others… not so much. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. I’d expect maybe one or two to go along with a no-win scenario like that — there are always a few nuts — but not all of them at once. (Death Toll is one of the few exceptions. He seems like enough of a putz to break cover for the Lulz. Ironically, he’s also one of the few who bothered to wear a mask to conceal his identity. The rest seemed suicidally determined to get on as many “Most Wanted” and “Shoot on Sight” list as possible.
+1
(Not that I shall be actively championing the defence any more,* myself, but a good argument needs to be acknowledged).
* Other than to point out anything which strikes me as a gross inaccuracy. Whilst I shall be avoiding the debatable points of opinion, it is unfair to let things which are simply wrong stand unchallenged.
This is not all in response to Dan Merget, since the first parts are and this is the thread I was in before I’m putting it here.
If Archon can find anyone at all who was invited and refused to go, that kills any chance of the “the devil made me do it” argument succeeding in court.
Why would Team Evil think the fight would be televised? This was after the press conference and demonstration, when it was just the Archon folks and miscellaneous restaurant workers. Given the lack of news people it looks like what showed up was purely the local response team. And given the distance they were at, it is a safe bet they weren’t on site when the fun started. It would be reasonable to assume new crews would show up, but with the bad guys outnumbering the good guys so much I would bet all but Vehemence expected a quick victory.
For incentive, how is no longer having to worry about anyone being able to stop you? There are a few vigilantes, but if you take out the only organized super-powered law enforcement group that leaves you nearly free reign to run amok.
But really, my reason for believing there is no chance of claiming coercion is the principle of “seeing is believing”. There is absolutely no physical evidence that any such coercion took place, until everyone went crazy. And when that happened, it was caught on camera and it would have been obvious from the Ariana-Suzie News fight that there was some outside cause. There is the physical evidence, and most people will take that as the standard for mind control. People start randomly fighting? Mind control. A bunch of people show up to cause trouble? Well, they aren’t fighting each other then, are they? No mind control. It’s simple, and people love simple. Especially in court.
Also, mind control is in no way legally similar to being drugged. Drugs leave traces, physical evidence of their use. With mind control, how do you test? Blood tests turning up the same abnormalities in everyones blood, or maybe brain scans, but even if you found them, so what? Everyone was under the influence of mind control when they all fought each other. That’s obviously the source for the oddities.
Maybe Dabbler could concoct a magical test. Again, so what? Everybody knows there is no such thing as magic. Until you show magic many times, can repeat it reliably, and demonstrate it to everyone on the jury, there is no magic. And once there is magic, how do you establish someones credentials as an authority on the subject? There are no accredited institutions of higher learning handing out advanced degrees in magical fields. The lack of recognized experts and the defendants right to a speedy trial will preclude testimony about the results of magical tests from being considered here.
By the way, even a cursory examination of the US legal system makes it clear that reason and logic take a very distant back seat to procedure, precedent, and due process. Did no one watch the OJ trial? Doesn’t anyone read Supreme Court rulings? The presumption of innocence is a meaningless bit of fluff. The defendants are presumed to be guilty; that’s why they are on trial. A bit of depressing reading for you.
Also, in Baze v. Rees (about halfway down), Justice John Paul Stevens said “Of special concern to me are rules that deprive the defendant of a trial by jurors representing a fair cross section of the community. Litigation involving both challenges for cause and peremptory challenges has persuaded me that the process of obtaining a “death qualified jury” is really a procedure that has the purpose and effect of obtaining a jury that is biased in favor of conviction.” Effectively acknowledgement by a Supreme Court Justice that there is no presumption of innocence, though carefully limited in scope to supporting his arguments against the death penalty.
Not going to go into the merits (and lack thereof) of attempting a coercion defense again, except to note that you’ve brought up a very good point that I don’t think has been mentioned before: both the prosecution and the defense are going to want to look very closely (and lobby very hard) to decide whether to try the defendants as a group or individually.
No reason to since this is much closer to being drugged or under the influence by trickery rather than being forced to do something against your will by threats or whatever. (didn’t put a gun to their heads they put something INSIDE their heads. O.O )
I’m assuming you meant “Budget Halo”‘s force beams not the PPO of the actual Halo who works with them.
Please see my pacifist argument above. He could fight it off more easily than average people (or average super heroes), because he is a placid hairdresser, who does not resort to fighting. Without some external power pushing him.
Dabbler is able to generate a low level ‘lust’ aura before being all ‘powered up’ – it’s very conceivable that Vehemence is able to do the same thing with violence.
Isn’t this the sort of thing that ARC Light is supposed to handle? Figuring out who did what, and when?
Yup.
*CACKLE* Klingon kisses. Best line in this webcomic so far!
I thought that he only threw down the Aura at the end of the fight, that all the attackers were there of their own free will and he just woke them back up and aggro’d them after they were knocked out, once he had enough power to do so?
That’s all you need to know for now. Go with it till the comic itself gives you reason to doubt it.
Everything otherwise you are seeing in the comments is just folks having fun with theories’N’whatifs etc… If you want someone will be happy to explain all the various pet theories to you but that way lies madness. o.0
@ ProjectXa3
That’s my read as well, though a lot of people seem to have convinced themselves otherwise. Don’t ask me how.
Though the aura couldn’t be detected visibly until Halo used her truesight orb, so the case still exists for V having had a lower intensity aura going to get the ‘anti’s to where ARC was having its afterparty, and dropping it once the blows started flying and the anger was self sustaining.. which can fit the few combatants that suddenly go ‘why am I doing this?’
The later, detected, road rage aura could have been one V only started projecting once he had the surplus energy to do so.
I’m sorry, WHICH combatants?
Zebra Mohawk the Barberian, and Budget Halo (er, sorry, Hex) at the very least both commented that they weren’t sure why they were even there – at the time this prompted a lot of forum discussion about possible mind control.
… Which would also be the case if they had joined Team Evil on impulse or were talked into it by their peers, then had a simple “What the hell am I doing here?” moment when things began getting real. As often happens.
Don’t need any kind of Mind Control to explain that. Sometimes, a cigar really is just a cigar.
Early on the heroes did not seem to be unduly affected by an aggro aura. But there again they were no where near Vehemence, who was the far side of the car park, beyond all the villains. And he was at his weakest.
Ego it is not unreasonable to suppose he was only affecting them* at the time. Either because he was too weak to do more. Or because he chose them to do so tactically.
The hairdresser being the primary evidence that such was going on PRIOR to the detection of the aggro aura.
Supported by Boiler plate (and others) attacking in this earlier period (PRIOR to the detection of the aggro aura). Yet the instant it was disrupted by Halo’s force field, they reverted to their natural behaviour, as good citizens. Rushing to the aid of the beleaguered police.
Whilst an argument could be made that they were simply defecting to the winning side, that does not hold water. As Vehemence was clearly still a significant threat. If they truly were the cop-killing anarchist anti-government types portrayed, they would surely seek to tip the balance back. It was readily apparent that it was taking every cop present, to hold him, and they still were no enough.
However, we know categorically, that the instant the aggro aura was disrupted, they acted as good citizens. Which is what they are immediately claiming above.
If they really were good citizens, why were they fighting the cops earlier (PRIOR to the aggro aura being detected)? The aggro aura having been used during that earlier period consistently explains that, and the other anomalies.
Very importantly there is no reason why it could not have been used then. It is invisible. It would benefit Vehemence in his purpose of increasing the violence. And the more power he gained, the more he could put into the agro aura, until it was so powerful he could even get the heroes to fight each other!
All this argument hold together. It is not built on straws. Each piece of evidence makes the whole stronger. No point is contrived, or reliant on unreasonable assumptions. Each fact is based on evidence we have observed.
* The villains, to be explicitly clear, in answer to your question.
Could also be a simple case of Team Evil being really p#####ed off at Vehemence for organizing the whole deal, talking all of them into it, then suddenly betraying everybody ay a critical point. An honest desire for revenge afterwards would account for much.
How has he betrayed them? He is still fighting the cops. Why would they (the cop-hating anti-government anarchists pre-supposed by your argument), turn on the person who is fighting the cops?
And that does not explain the hairdresser.
Your earlier argument that he did it under ‘peer pressure’ simply does not hold water. Does an upright citizen, with a stable job like a hairdresser, and who is clearly unsuited to and unfamiliar with combat, decide “yea, my mates are right, tonight is a nice night to kill some cops!”
My turn to call shenanigans, I am afraid.
His damn idea in the first place. They went in, and found it was a lot tougher than expected.
And. Vehemence. Just Stood. There.
Furthermore, no certainty that V was at all honest about what they would be facing. Considering his methods and motives ( and his clearly expressed attitude about the others), I sincerely doubt it.
Then they decid to bail out. At which point Vehemence finally steps in, deliberately attacks and KO’s Vexter and Portal, and prevents the entire group’s escape.
Betrayal. Kindly tell me where it isn’t this. Shenanigans on YOU.
Hairdresser Guy was ‘invited’ along by some people he knew. We don’t know the nature of this invitation, and there is no guarantee that his inviters wwere truthful about what was going down. He didn”t seem all that active in the battle anyways, and his reaction when confronted is a basic “I didn’t sign up for this?”.
Noting too that some people can be VERY easily led. You just have to know which buttons to push. Case in point = Gummy.
Actually I had forgotten the bit about stopping them doing the teleport away. Christmas had happened in between me reading that, and now. Point conceded, that was a betrayal.
Ergo your conclusion was plausible. It certainly did not feel like that to me, though, reading the comic initially. But, if I do a re-read, with that in mind, sometime, perhaps that might change.
Of course, if you are right, then it means that Archon are going to have to charge some individuals with attempted murder. Despite the fact that they helped the police to defeat Vehemence. That will send very mixed messages to the public.
‘Aid Archon and we will ensure you are sent down for murder!’
Or else they will have to collude with, and condone, attempted murder, by finding some way to get the charges dropped or waived, as a reward.
‘You can get away with murder, provided you side with Archon!’
Which seems an odd direction for the comic to take, however they resolve that.
As such, I am still happy that my version makes sense, and that its merits are better than yours. Although I will not discount the possibility that you are right.
My shenanegans call was regards the hairdresser, by the way, not the above, as your conclusion still does not feel realistic to me. The jump from peaceful hairdresser to trying to kill cops is still too much of a leap from me. Unless that button pushing was being aided by something more.
But I will concede that it is possible.
Are you willing to do the same for my interpretation of events though?
It does not bring into play any extraneous or unbelievable things (like saying aliens did it). All the elements involved in the argument are present and visible in the comic. Only requiring one unseen element to tie in the supposition. That the aggro aura was turned on, from the outset. Given that it is invisible, even when on, is that too hard to contemplate as being possible?
Whilst you clearly think it unlikely, do you hold that it is impossible? Or is it, as a fairly simple alternative to your chosen option, a reasonable possibility?
Yorp, I am certainly willing to concede that mind-control (at least to some degree) might have been affected on individuals in the group, or possibly even everyone in the group. I always have been.
What I am not willing to concede is that it’s likely to make a whit of difference in their upcoming legal battle if the prosecution really wants to hang the perps out to dry. I mean, even if the defense does put Sydney (who certainly appears to be sympathetic to the perps) on the stand, tearing down her mind-control assertion is unbelievably simple in American courts.
It’d go like this:
Prosecutor: What evidence did you see of mind control?
Sydney: Well, there was this huge aura that affected everyone who wasn’t in my forcefield?
Prosecutor (looking at FWTDT): Everyone? What about this man?
Sydney: Well, no, but-
Prosecutor: Thank you.
Sydney: But-
Prosecutor: Thank you. And when did you notice this mind-affecting aura that, in fact, did not affect everyone in the area of effect?
Sydney: About two-thirds of the way through the fight.
Prosecutor: How did you happen to notice it? Was there a distinctive visual effect?
Sydney: Um… I can’t answer that. It’s classified.
Prosecutor: Did you see this aura earlier in the fight?
Sydney: No, but-
Prosecutor: Thank you.
Sydney: But-
Prosecutor: Thank you, that will be all. No further questions.
See, according to the laws of jurisprudence in the US, Sydney cannot actually volunteer any information unless it is specifically requested. If she does, the prosecution can (and most likely would) request that it be struck from the record.
And then the defense gets to cross examine the witness and ask for explanations of everything the prosecutor cut her off from saying. That isn’t classified, of course.
Two problems with that.
1) Defense called the witness; they don’t get to cross-examine. They either needed to make those questions when they called the witness or they have to deal with having forgotten them. You would be correct, of course, if the prosecution had called her.
2) If the defense had asked those questions in the first place, the prosecution could then cross-examine- which would lead to asking questions that would have the evidence dismissed.
Amazingly I’m agreeing with anifreik.
Defense does get to cross-examine. The prosecutor ‘opened the door’ when he or she questions Sydney like that.
@Yorp
I hesitate to pronounce anything impossible. ‘Never Say Never’, and all that.
But:
(a) I think that there is nothing here that cannot be explained more simply and conventionally. I strongly dislike what seems like ‘conspiracy theory’ styled reasoning and, without intending to be offensive, there seems to be a certain degree of that going on.
(b) It is already established that Vehemence is an extremely powerful super. With this extra load of capabilities attributed to him (with, I continue to feel, no real basis), he goes from being merely “dangerous even if you have a good team to back you up” to “so frickin’ Ghod-like, it’s ridiculous”.
That’s where I’m coming from.
Purely as an aside, I would add that, with the astounding degree of subtlety and fine manipulation that V was allegedly achieving (think about it), what he had wasn’t so much an “aggro aura” as it was straight-out Mind Control.
There is only one issue here. How much volition did the defendants have? If they had no volition at all, then they are completely blameless and thereby totally innocent.
Whereas if their volition was impaired, but not lost, then you have to decide how to handle that. Do you say “we cannot determine if the defendant would or would not have undertaken any given action, as the degree to which any individual may have been affected is an unknown. Therefore we must give them the benefit of the doubt”?
Or do we decide “we must estimate how much of an effect the loss of volition was, judging by degree of deviation from expected behaviour, based on past history and our value judgements of how the individuals may have behaved, in these circumstances, based on that”.
Either path is a valid one, depending on what society deems fair. How the law in America might handle that, I hesitate to predict. But, if the former is taken, then it has the same result as if volition had been lost completely. Those who lost any volition will be deemed to be innocent.
Therefore arguments as to how great or little the control was would be irrelevant.
But, if the latter path is chosen, then such issues do come into play. Which I will reply to separately.
What are the known properties that can be attributed to the aggro aura? Look at the two cops attacking each other, it can:
1) Make a subject loose rational control over enough to fail to distinguish friend from foe.
2) Loose inhibition enough to cause violent attack.
If you wish to argue semantics, does this constitute mind control? Yes. These subjects are not making those choices for themselves, their minds are being controlled by another.
If the intent is to say “can the other party direct these actions, to a specific end?” then that is another question. We cannot show that the power, alone, can provide that.
Although there is some argument to be made that it directed each police man to attack each other. So it is possible. But not conclusive, as it may be that they were simply attacking the nearest targets, rather than being directed to attack specific ones.
But could the use of elements 1) and 2) be used to influence subjects to act in a direction which the controller chooses? Certainly. A skilled psychologist, with the capability of manipulating those two aspects, could influence the subjects at suitable times to achieve that end.
By example, during a rabble-rousing speech, denouncing oppressive police, increasing the aggressiveness that the subjects experience. They are fixated on police, so that aggressiveness is being focussed. This is psychology at work. The super power does not need to have to be able to do that too, in order to have the results we have seen here.
We know that super powers can be varied in degree. Maxima does not have to fire her plasma attack at full nuclear power every time. She can reduce it to just melt a tank. Any flyer can go at variable speed. There are numerous other examples. Plus we see that Vehemence’s powers are hugely adaptable and variable.
So trying to argue that he can only use it at full power is simply unreasonable. It is plausible that he can vary the intensity of the power. And he has indicated that he has been practising his capability for a long time. So it is fair to propose that he may also be able to alter 1) and 2) separately, rather than simultaneously.
So, yes, he may well have a very high degree of subtly in the use of his power. But, no, doing that is not attributing weird properties to him or his power. We are seeing from Sydney that intelligent supers can adapt their powers, and he is an intelligent super villain.
To assert that he cannot do what she, Maxima and, even the notoriously slow-witted Heatwave, can,** is either flawed or obstructive reasoning.
** Ie vary the intensity of the super power. Heatwave can hover. Which shows a very finely balanced use of flight, that very few natural flyers, or machines, can achieve.
I think you are right they have plenty of reason to be pissed at Vehemence. Up to and including making them attack each other mindlessly if they remember that well. I mean they come to and see this super powerful guy taking on the whole team now when he just stood around and let them get thumped or drugged without lifting a finger earlier and only remembers them as a distraction/power source when he makes them attack folk they on their own side. Yeah, plenty of reason to start to suspect who the real arse is in all this.
THAT said, they were all knocked out, one way or the other, at the time of the big betrayal so unless Vekter or Opal had some opportunity to become conscious and then discuss it with them during the last little bit of the fight they would have no idea of the fact that Vehemence ACTIVELY took some of them out and destroyed their chance of a clean getaway. Which might be why the rageroid guy had to be convinced to help instead of already being pissed enough to help of his own accord.
Ooh, nicely made. I am glad there is somebody more observant (and/or with a better memory) than me, arguing these points too.
Uh no, they categorically did NOT just start acting like good citizens, they acted like criminals looking to get away from the crime scene before they were arrested or get revenge on the guy that used them for his own amusement so he could power-up and enjoy an epic boss battle with the good guys.
The hairdresser is only evidence of someone who went along with his buddies but backed out as soon as he saw how things really were and surrendered, he’s certainly not evidence of mind control.
So yes it really is a based on straw, it begins with the assumption that everyone’s a good citizen with no criminal tendencies or actual criminal behavior in their pasts and then tries to ‘explain’ away their conflict as mind control to justify something suffering from being treated as a fact that isn’t actually a fact. What we had were people like Maxima brought up during the televised interview, they lived in a vacuum thinking themselves one of the few supers around and tougher than anybody else and eager to take out the competition so they didn’t have to worry about the law in the future after seeing that the law was creating an entire super-team to fight among other things bad supers.
So what we got were normal citizens, some being criminals or at least having criminal tendencies or too much of a ‘go along’ personality, talked into joining an ad hoc group of supers to ‘eliminate’ the threat of law enforcement. They jumped into things whole-heartedly (outside the hairdresser, who being his super-fight wasn’t sure what to do and out-numbered at that point anyway), found out they were being manipulated and used by Vehemence, and now looking for a way out of being punished for their choices.
First off that is done because everybody is presumed innocent until proven guilty. But it is not necessary for any of them to be honest upright pillars of the community (other than the hairdresser). They could all be unpleasant people you would rather cross the street to avoid.
Making that change to the hypothesis does not weaken my case, nor prove yours, in any way.
Turn on the aggro aura and they still will attack the cops. Whether they are innocent boy scouts or Atilla the Hun reincarnated.
What you are postulating is one explanation as to their behaviour. Whilst I am offering another. Unless you can prove that my explanation is impossible, then it remains a valid possibility.
You’re trying to argue to the readers of the comic that the people who attacked the protagonists other than Vehemence were good citizens and claim that Vehemence must have been controlling their minds from the very beginning, there is ZERO presumption of innocence you can make for them because we, the readers, have already seen what kind of people they are and outside of the Hairdresser none of them come off innocent (several are known to have criminal records and Vehemence certainly didn’t encounter them at a super-market).
So no, currently you don’t have a valid possibility. You haven’t presented anything that would rise to that level. Vehemence has not demonstrated any subtle powers and certainly the only example of mind-influencing he’s demonstrated required he have a ton of power and was as subtle as a hammer, only able to inspire blind aggression in anyone without warning or means to fight it off. ‘Well he can inspire blind rage in people so he so totally has proven he can mind control people into doing whatever he wants’ doesn’t cut it, he’s proven no such thing and it’s circular reasoning to try and claim that because everyone showed up to fight that must prove it as if somehow they’d never have done it on their own when we know that’s just not the case.
What we have are people who showed up on their own free will, the only influence Vehemence used was ‘hey let’s all get together and fight these wannabe cops and eliminate their threat’ or some variation thereof. Several already had criminal records, like the telekinetic running things, no reason to think they’d require mind control to think it a good idea, and others were obviously looking for a fight (heck several were just like Math and Vehemence, looking for someone to give them a challenging fight). One does not need to invent some non-existent mind control to explain why they were there, well other than because they want to make excuses for the criminal acts of the bad guys because they want them to get off for some reason so try and make them out as not as bad as they really were.
So without actual proof of it it’s obvious no one was being mind-controlled to fight, not until Vehemence explicitly unleashed his blind aggression field when he was trying to power up enough to kill Maxima. That proof could come in the comic somehow (like Dabbler perhaps having the means to detect such prior manipulations) or as a Word of God from the author but currently there’s no evidence at all Vehemence has the capacity to engage in such mental manipulations let alone that anyone who showed up was there for any reason other than because they chose to be there of their own free will.
If dabbler can generate a subtle ‘lust aura’ with her body without there being any sort of ‘aggro field’ then it stands to reason that Vehemence probably can as well to convince them to do something they would otherwise not do.
That’s reasonable doubt as to the ‘evil intent’ for a lot of the attackers – no mens rea = no ability to convict.
Call a spade a spade. With the degree of fine control and manipulation that V was allegedly achieving, it isnit so much an ‘aggro aura’ as it is straight-out Mind Control.
It could just be ‘coaxing’ – using vehemic energy to subtly influence someone to do something that they MIGHT do, but their common sense would tell them to not do. The vehemic ‘push’ would push them into doing something stupid.
It’s not like an aggro field where he’s just making everyone go against their basic natures.
+1
Although I would probably rephrase the final sentence, to avoid quibbling over semantics (given Halo’s use of the term “agro aura”).
“It does not just have to be used for blind aggression, where he’s just making everyone go against their basic natures.”
I call that the Legacy Rule (Reference to Superman TAS Series Finale)
DaveB, Maxima is from the military, so it is understandable that she would not think of this immediately. But the cops do face the kind of dilemma she is facin,g in the first couple of panels, all the time. And there is a simple solution to it, for folks who are seeking to avoid any kind of record.
The police simply request that the individuals volunteer to ‘help them with their enquiries’. Those that refuse, they will have to process in the normal way. But those who co-operate, will get the benefit that they are requesting. Assuming that they are confident that no evidence will be turned up, against them, during the course of those enquiries.
And here I thought Mr. Bandana there got his arm dislocated to next week by Maxima. He bounced back quick.
So did a bunch of the heavy hitters. They can be hard to keep KOed because they are so resilient. In game terms, their STR stat gives them higher Stun Points, Endurance and/or Recovery as a matter of course. He may have reset the dislocation himself. No quite up to Vehemence’s toughness but still hard core.
Maxima is now lying. They’ll have a record once they get taken in. Even if found innocent. Arianna is of course correct.
The real question is, how many supers are there in this world. That will decide just how big the problem is.
Maxima isn’t lying. If they are found to be innocent, while there will be a record of them being charged and acquitted, that is not the correct context for their concern. The “record” they are concerned about is a criminal record, which means having a record of being found guilty of a crime or crimes.
You can be arrested and released, or tried and acquitted, hundreds of times and this is not able to be held against you in any other criminal proceeding, nor is this information made available to a prospective employer (an employer such as the FBI or other law enforcement agency is probably able to see this information but should not treat it prejudicially, and in order to maintain a security clearance in good standing you are required to report to your security officer any contact with law enforcement, no matter what the circumstances. Posted bail for your kid brother? Got a ticket for expired tags? You are required to report it). Convictions are all that matter. In many (probably most or all) cases it isn’t even allowed to be mentioned, as in to bring it up to a jury. And the prosecutor who did so “accidentally” would risk a mistrial and may also suffer consequences with the bar.
Oberon, not correct. As I commented earlier, one of my jobs was performing background checks for the state. not only were records of “arrests only” visible, but you were automatically permanently disqualified from holding my job if you had an arrest (not conviction, not trial, but ARREST) for any crime above a Class B misdemeanor, or for 10 years for a Class B Misdemeanor.
This may obviously vary from state to state, but there is no INHERENT protection from employers using any criminal records they find against you. As long as the reason they aren’t hiring you isn’t covered by the various discrimination laws, anything else is pretty much fair game.
Now there may be states out there that have passed laws that say you can only consider convictions, but there are certainly states that haven’t. I live in and work for one of them.
I have addressed this particular issue- there are laws on the books in all fifty states for getting arrests and, in fact, crimes expunged from your record. Some crimes cannot ever be expunged, of course, but I believe that any wrongful arrest can be expunged provided the accused has the savvy to do it.
Which costs money, some jobs can still get through it (there goes some government jobs), judge can always just say no.
I worked for an ADA for a while – they don’t like to take cases if they think it’s likely that they’ll lose, or if there’s a high percentage of reasonable doubt, which there is for everyone except for Vehemence. It messes with their record on convictions, not to mention costs the taxpayers a lot of money to just lose a case. They usually will only charge once they have all their ducks in a row.
This is true, unfortunately, but getting an arrest with no conviction expunged is something that a grad-school dropout can do successfully.
As a side note, realistically, most of these guys will probably be allowed to cop a plea to a lesser charge in order to avoid any of this going to trial- it’s a win-win for both the DA and the defense lawyers; the only person that loses is the accused!
Coping a plea to any lesser charge, creates a record. Getting arrested creates a record. So, unless stupid, they wouldn’t cop a plea.
Though getting arrested is really out of their control. No matter how much they might say “I’m not going with you! V did it, and I had no choice and don’t want a record!” isn’t going to stop a law official from taking them in, if they want to take them in.
At that point, they get the record or get taken in for resisting.
No win for those V’s aura was used on.
Yes, thank you- that was kind of my point; they’re going to get a record now, no matter what they do.
As regards to not accepting a plea unless they’re stupid… how many of them do you think can afford a high-priced, competent lawyer? If any of their cases go to court, I’d rate the chances of conviction based on the evidence as a bit higher than the chance of acquittal, which are odds that no attorney is going to like. Given that they’re almost certainly going to be represented by public defenders, the odds of conviction go way up- and if they choose to go through with the entire trial, they’re on the hook for every single charge the DA can dream up.
Both Maxima (the ranking police officer) and Arianna (the embedded police lawyer) are highly sympathetic to the suspect’s plight. So I do not think that they will impose a criminal record on these people, unless they find evidence to warrant it.
The typical solution that police offer in such circumstances is to request that the suspects help them with their enquiries. If they co-operate, there is no arrest and no record. Until or unless either evidence is found or political/public pressure forces an arrest on shaky grounds.
Arianna, with good spin, should be able to reduce the odds of the latter happening. Making much of charging the arch-villain behind it all will drastically reduce the pressure as something significant has been done. Plus they will be able to arrest both Shadow Boxer and Death Knell, with a clear conscience.
So there will be several prosecutions going on, which will keep the media occupied. It is only when they have no news to report that much headline coverage is devoted to bleating about grey issues.
I see no reason to suppose that. This is the same as any other precedent-setting case, where there is a significant minority involvement. There is a massive incentive for other supers to ensure that justice is served here, and that supers are not made a scape goat, just because they are supers.
As such, I envisage a pressure group will be formed and funding will be raised to cover the legal costs. We have only focussed on the combat-oriented supers. We know there are far more working in the corporate, industrial and entertainment industries, and who will clearly be able to command significantly more money than average workers.
Not to mention those who have powers which would make them gifted inventors, genius intellects or grant them other abilities which would make them much more financially successful. Plus if any can do things like creating diamonds (provided they do not kill the world economies by doing so recklessly), they will be able to grant unlimited funds.
If nothing else, super-sponsored fund raisers will be able to draw in huge donations, from a fascinated public. Enough of whom will be able to see that mind-controlled people are innocent, that even non-supers will be supporting the cause.
Nobody wants to see a society where the victims of a crime get prosecuted.
So, no I do not think they will be getting bargain basement lawyers. They will be getting the best that money can buy. Possibly better, if a super-lawyer steps up to the plate.
Say one with precognition, who could anticipate every ploy the prosecution might come up with, know which are the best jurors to pick, rather than having to rely on profiling, see which of their own strategies will be successful and so on.
Which should raise some interesting ethical and legal dilemmas, in it’s own right. Provided the lawyer chose to reveal their capabilities, in the first place. But, ignoring the ethical implications of that, however it goes, I doubt these folks will be badly represented.
A lawyer who gets people off, who have publicly committed such damning-looking acts, will gain a reputation as a ‘must-have’ lawyer. The ones competent enough, to feel that they can win this, will be queuing up to represent the defendants! Should it ever come to trial. Which it may well not.
Just a note that you all seem to be missing. The police have the right to detain you for up to 72 hours without actually arresting you. Being Detained my have to be reported in some states, as Tom White pointed out, but that is a far cry from being arrested, which means that the police are bringing charges against you.
An additional note on this, as I mentioned earlier, is the whole PR angle of this. Perception of Gestapo type tactics will hurt Archon (you are a super, but you are not part of Archon so you must be tagged or eliminated). Detaining everyone overnight, then letting the bulk of them go without pressing charges against them, then have Arrianna spin it as “Most of them were victims of an insidious crime, and that is what Archon wants to protect people against, whether they are normal or superpowered, we are here to protect your rights!”
That winds up being a win for almost everyone, except for the handful of people that Archon actually DOES press charges against, ie: Vehemence, Deathtoll, etc…
My two cents,
Actually no, if no charges are pressed, then you don’t have a record at all. It’s only once charges are pressed that anything goes on your record. THAT can be expunged. And if the prosecutor refuses to prosecute, the police are not going to effect charges 90 percent of the time. It just wastes to much city money for no actual payout (ie, incarceration or even the possibility of incarcertaion… or even sending a message)
He he. You are obviously talking about a jurisdiction to which you are familiar. It is just the same in Britain. But, if you read the comments, following the one you replied to, you will see that there are exceptions to that. Notably in various American states.
I vote to have Sydney do the interrogations, with no verbal restraint, with Dabbler and X in the room invisibly if things get out of hand.
wouldn’t that be adding insult to injury?
Not to mention abuse of power, coercion and obstruction of justice by trying to influence the ‘Witnesses’?
I’m not a legal professional in any sense, so if you can think of more to add, please do so.
Sydney’s insults just may be capable of doing injury. After all, even Math has judged Sydney to be 7th Dan Black Belt in swearing…
O.O
I think it will be Okay to have 3 or 4 become eventually good guys(and I am sure there are some we readers would like that for them, like the chick of martial arts and the hair dresser guy) while the rest go under the radar or decide to go “normal life”and others eventually we see them as bad guys ………………. and a font to consider for gravely voice would be “Crooked Johnnie” if you have it available
I don’t think hairdresser guy is much of a fighter, really. I want him to open a
salon in Archon HQ next to Fusion.
+10
Maybe not that close. Who knows what the fumes from the “Unmaker” would do to your hair? And we know it will become a favorite eating spot for Sydney as they can provide the “spicy” meals she prefers. The almost daily exposure to the these hazardous chemicals will create serious risks to health and property. Her earlier milder lunch emptied a bank like a mustard gas attack. Imagine how dangerous a “really hot” meal would be.
“…as they can provide the “spicy” meals she prefers.”
…As long as Sydney remembers to close her eyes if she starts slurping noodles in…It took significantly more than the medic she called for.
:o
I doubt the Barberian is going to join Archon. I don’t think he wants to fight in the first place. Opening a hair salon in ARCHON though would be cool.
I think Hex might be a good candidate if she gets over the squirrel fear though. MAYBE the non-blue haired guy who helped against Vehemence.
And maybe Jabberwocky if she stays fixated on Dabbler (even though it’s designed to taper off).
Not sure about Heavenly Sword. Maybe she’d be convinced for the same reason that Math was convinced to join, but I just don’t see it happening.
i say the bad guys that participated in the battle (regardless of innocence) should at least have their names and abilities put in a database of known supers. they don’t even have to take fingerprints since the powers would be their signature. this would allow archon to cross examine crime scenes with the database to see if any of the known supers are responsible. if the ability isn’t a perfect match then they could at least ask if any of the other supers know of someone with similar powers. if they cooperate then they don’t have a criminal record. if they try to fight it then they have maxima or halo to answer to and still get a criminal record (halo is IMO the scarier one to face off with).
The Registration of Empowered system is one of those that sounds good in theory, but could easily go wrong in the implementation, both actually and politically.
It’s easy to make a case for it. There’s the judicial angle you mention, and that could work both ways – to identify sufficiently distinctive MOs, and to rule out those who couldn’t have done what’s reported. But there’s also the National-Service angle, so that in the event of a major emergency FEMA knows how to request and co-ordinate help (do we need a Speedster to be evacuating casualties or running supplies?).
However, the concerns against are definitely valid. We’ve already seen strong reactions to proposals such as firearms registration in the US and various rejected iterations of Identity Cards in the UK, and those concerns are more relevant in a scenario with Empowered individuals. There’s not much you can do with the information that I have dark brown hair, size 13 feet, and am short-sighted by +3.75 and +4.25 in right and left eyes respectively. But if another register tells you that I can generate intense heat between my fingers, and also that someone in the next town is an effective hypnotist, then you have the makings of a bank robbery.
It’s not much use saying that the register will remain in a secure location. I don’t know if it’s the same where you are, but the UK Government and Civil Service are by no means immune to leaving a memory stick on the train containing confidential data.
Secure registers and databases CAN be done. Just that it isn’t simple or easy.
I say that as a former employee of the Australian Bureau of Statistics, generally regarded as one of the world’s best at what they do – and very hardline about confidentiality of all data they gather.
it wouldn’t be mandatory unless an individual was part of a major incident (like this battle). and considering leon’s ability with computers it wouldn’t be hard for him to keep the database secure. and if there was a leak he would be able to find out who got in relatively quickly.
Noting that there was a lot of data being gathered during the fight by Zeph and co. Mostly just pics and notes made on the fly on their apparent powers, but it is a definite start.
A note for those who are wondering how ARC will be reviewing the after-action reports. In addition to the wifi eye displays (ARC-glass?) that got lost or crunched shortly after hostilities began, there is also Dabbler’s cyber-eye. It was recording everything from her point of view (literally) and most likely uploaded all of its footage and assorted sensor data to the ARC servers.
(I am sure some of the staff will be reviewing the lighthook bouncy-bouncy footage quite closely)
you forget that by the time that happened everyone else’s eye pieces were destroyed. and the bouncy bouncy footage from her point of view probably won’t show much other than the screen going up and down with her head when she jumps.
Your forgetting that she was looking down directly at her cleavage when she realized what Sydney wanted and for the first couple of bounces. I expect it will take a while to find all the copies of that .gif on ARCLIGHTS servers and delete them.
The only Two for sure that will be charged are Vehemence for Inciting the whole thing and Shadow Boxer who was inside Sydney’s Shield(thus Protected from the Aggro Aura) and still intended to Kill Her.
+1
Yes I agree. Not only was he not effected by the aura but struck her from behind without provocation. That’s basically attempted murder. He might wrangle a deal with Arc-Dark though. No matter what politicians say most nations will find a use for a good assassin. Yeah that’s a little dark for this comic but the reality is that’s what would happen in the real world and I suspect it will offscreen in this comic because it’s logical. The silver lining would be that few assassins die of old age.
You’re forgetting that at least two of them (the telekinetic and the teleporter) actually do have criminal records so it’s really unlikely they wouldn’t also be charged, and given we’re talking a high-profile, highly destructive battle there’s no reason to think anyone would get away without being charged except for the one guy who didn’t actually do anything but surrender, Hairdresser Man.
Whilst I agree that those two having criminal records will make the public, prosecution and government want to charge them. Likewise as regards it being necessary to send a signal that battles such as this will not be tolerated, and those responsible will be punished.
However there are several reasons why the conclusion you draw from those points is flawed. As another commentator has already pointed out earlier, if Archon charges all of these individuals, and only a small proportion are actually convicted, then their conviction rates will be shown to be poor. Which will reflect badly on them and undermine public confidence in the system.
It is wisest for police to always consider the quality of the evidence, and assess the likelihood of a conviction, before charging suspects. If the circumstances are such that it is unlikely to secure a conviction, then it is not a good idea to lay charges.
Arianna, who is a lawyer with specialist knowledge in this area, says this very plainly in panel 4 above “.., some, or maybe even most, of whom are innocent…” This is because if Vehemence was causing them to fight,* due to the use of his super power, then they were not acting under their own volition. Which means that they are innocent.
It is wrong to knowingly charge innocent people with a crime. It is unjust to the individuals and it places unfair expectations in the minds of the general public. The latter will be expecting to see these charges lead to convictions. And they will be disillusioned when it does not. In these circumstances, possibly leading to civil unrest and unprovoked attacks on a minority group.
Whereas, taking the points mentioned in my first paragraph, and using them to justify securing convictions, to avoid the possibility of unrest, is elevating the issue to a gross miscarriage of justice. Knowingly convicting people who are likely to be innocent, for political purposes, or otherwise, is fundamentally wrong.
If one man was responsible for all the damage and destruction then one man should face those charges, and the consequences. ** Only if it can be reasonably shown that some, or most, of the others retained culpability for their actions, should the punishment be extended to them too.
Whilst, at first examination, the suggestion of giving those in a grey area suspended sentences sounded like a good proposal, on reflection, in actuality that too would be a violation of their rights. Because, unless they can be proven to be guilty, then they cannot, under law, be punished. And a suspended sentence very much is a punishment.
Of course, special legislation can be put through, to make provision for something like this. But then we have the situation of having a law which punishes the victims of a super attack.
* Note that, with the information currently available to Archon, it is impossible for them to prove that the agro aura was not being used from the start. I do not say this lightly. Whilst I am happy to argue if the quality of the evidence is such that we can meet the legal criteria to declare that it was not being used, beyond reasonable doubt, that does not negate this fact.
** Plus Shadow Boxer, for his actions, as he does not have the extenuating circumstances, that others have.
Technically, their previous records should not influence the trial regarding whether or not they are guilty; as I’ve pointed out earlier, the point of not allowing the admission of prior behavior into evidence is to protect the accused. What it would do is affect sentencing.
Please note- this in no way changes my opinion on how the trial proceedings would likely go; I just don’t like arbitrarily changing the rules midstream.
Here in America, the police gather the evidence and make arrests for what they believe to be the correct charges. The evidence is then handed to the prosecutor (called a District Attorney) who then reviews both the evidence and charges to see if they are correct and prosecutable. The DA has the option to drop charges altogether in the absence of evidence, change the charges to match the evidence, or, if he is unsure of his/her decision, take the evidence before a Grand Jury and allow them to bring or dismiss charges (the Defense does not get to speak before the Grand Jury, btw). In this case, the police (ARCSwat) would arrest everybody (you’re here, you were fighting, you’re under arrest) and let the Federal District Attorney (or the Attorney General) sort out the mess and take who he/she wants to trial.
The same kind of process happens on both sides of the Atlantic. And in all the English-speaking jurisdictions. But the initial call on whether to make an arrest is at the discretion of the police officer. The public prosecutor can choose to lay charges independently to that, of course. But a wise one will do so advisedly.
If the senior police officer involved (and thereby likely most of the others involved too) is strongly of the opinion that they should not be charged, and are likely innocent, then that is highly significant to reducing the odds of getting a conviction.
The prosecution would have to consider the police as hostile witnesses. And would not want to do that. They need the police on their side.
Especially in jurisdictions where the public prosecutors are also politicians, who will be bearing in mind the harm to their election prospects if they fail to secure convictions, they certainly will be seeking to do a deal that will see justice done.
In American minds that seems to equate to agreeing to accept lesser charges. Which, if evidence remained as sparse as we currently have, then that may be the way it goes. And, if they are really guilty then the legal wrangles we have been having here are likely to be the ones that see court.
But if they are all innocent then there is bound to be a lot of other proof that will crop up. For example everybody will be making statements which corroborate the true version of events. In this case, that will be easy to distinguish from pre-rehearsed responses.
There has been no time (maybe 4 hours max) to organise this. Little of which would be left for figuring out an alibi, and then rehearsing it. Which means that if they did have an organised conspiracy to do that, their statements would bear characteristic similarities. The turns of phrase that the organiser used being repeated time and time again. There are a lot of defendants, so such patterns will be very apparent.
Whereas with it being true, there will be a lot of natural variability, contradictions (people drawing their own conclusions about what happened and making assumptions, about it, so phrasing things very differently). But skilled interrogators can testify that there are no signs of rehearsal.
Likewise there may be closed circuit TV which corroborates the story. Perhaps placards will be found, with protester slogans on them? Emails, social media and personal contacts will be able to show that a peaceful (albeit maybe an anarchist anti-establishment themed one) was very clearly being planned and talked about. Which inexplicably changed when Vehemence walked in.
So if they are telling the truth, the prosecutor will be looking to do a deal. But that deal will be something that ensures the public that justice has been served. And bringing charges against innocent people is not doing that.
But asking them to voluntarily agree to psychological monitoring and ongoing evaluation, travel restrictions that prevent them from leaving the jurisdiction, and a requirement to report into police stations periodically, in exchange for not being charged… unless new evidence comes in…. now that is something that I could well see happening.
It’s worth noting that while the aura can be blamed for round 2 of the fighting, and thus Vehemence alone should be responsible for that, there has been no record in the comic of the aura causing round 1. What we do know is that Vehemence gathered them together for the purpose of attacking the Arc team, via message boards and so forth, and it is likely that the content of messages between the different people involved will be important in sorting out who knew they were coming to fight a law enforcement superteam and who (like the “I just came with my friends” guy), did not. It’s reasonable to assume that many of their defense lawyers would try to argue that the aura was at fault for all fighting, but so far the comic has indicated that it was only after he was charged up that he cast out his aura (including waking people from unconsciousness). Until then, no civilians were suddenly fighting, so that would tend to argue against any aura usage.
I’m sure it was done by unrecorded phone calls but the question of what sort of language was used to get them, the ring leaders not random dudes like The Barberian, to the initial meeting place is the real question that may take a while to ferret out for each individual case. (Opal would be crazy powerful if she could target them all on a phone call and take them directly to the parking lot individually and then they would show up piecemeal as called and THAT would be really bad strategy even for Vekter)
Off topic:
Apparently Grace has learned from Dabbler: https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=258
Off topic, perhaps, but pertinent to ongoing discussion.
He he. A hypno-boobie feedback loop! Grace entrancing Dabbler, who makes herself more attractive to Grace, which captivates Grace, who enlarges her breasts to please Dabbler, who…
That’s a self-reinforcing loop that I want to observe when it reaches critical mass…
O.o
so how about sentence everyone but Vehemence to probation and community service cause yes V whammy’d them but they stil agreed to come all he can do is make ppl pissed off not mind control
There’s no way to prove that he doesn’t have full mind control. In fact, I’d wager he does have mind control. The way some of the perpetrators were acting and speaking gives evidence that some of them had no idea why they were there at all.
Judging that on just two people? o_O
Barbarian never claimed mind control or even coercion: he said he was there because his buddies were there, which means the only thing would have been peer pressure at the most (still sounded like he chose to go)
Hex asked what she was doing there after she just got tossed through a tree, which is an understandable question slash reaction to anyone
You’ve got that wrong, there’s no way to prove he does have mind control. All we have proof of is that when he has sufficient power he’s got a mindless aggression-inducing field. Mindless aggression is quite different than mentally compelling people to follow you into battle, and Hairdresser Man surrendering as he does is pretty definitive proof of no such mind control.
He can make pants out of violence. I’m not putting anything past him.
Beyond that, I know Dave loves the Champions system, and even the “mindless aggression” is defined as a form of mind control in that system. Vehemence can shape vehement energy into any form he wants, and so it seems to me that he can focus his mind control to make direct compulsions, or create a wide area of effect with a broad compulsion (mindless aggression).
+1
“He can make pants out of violence”. Great line!
That is indeed a humdinger.
Note, that the following comment is restricted to the issue of ‘does mind control exist?’ It is not dealing with ‘at what point was it used?’ That is a separate issue.
Here it is you who is utterly wrong. Vehemence is able to affect peoples’ minds to the degree where even police were being forced to attack police. That is proof that he has mind control* and not only was willing to, but actually did use it.
Which is more than enough evidence for the defence to meet their share of the burden of proof. They have shown that he is MORE THAN CAPABLE of getting people to attack police.
Hiro and Stalwart, in particular, will be bending over backwards to confirm that they had no control themselves. Not wishing to face court-marshal for striking fellow officers. Being of good moral character, and having Halo (possibly anonymously, for national security reasons) categorically supporting their testimony, there will be no legal doubt that there was mind control* going on.
If the prosecution wish to show that he is unable to do a lesser effect, then they will have to put their cards on the table and prove that. Beyond reasonable doubt.
* You seem to think that ‘mind-control’ means that the person who is controlling has the unlimited capability to direct the target. Whereas all the court is seeking to determine is whether the individuals affected were in control of their own actions, or a third party was. Clearly it is the latter, when the aggro field is affecting an individual.
I agree, to the extent that the aura didn’t direct peoples’ precise actions, just induced the feeling “must attack nearest person”. Recall that Dabbler was thinking of putting a rail-gun round through Vehemence’s cranium. I don’t think Hiro and Stalwart have too much to worry about, since their fight was just one of many at that time.
That’s clearly an impossible task. All they can address is the “before aura / during aura” split, and the lack of evidence for mind control before the aura.
I do not deny that with the current evidence that we can see, it is impossible.* But that is just the way life works. The court has a term to deal with the result of that conundrum. It is called “not guilty”.
* But it is possible that they could prove it. A number of different ways. Dabbler may have some divination spell that could check. Likewise her super science gadgets could determine it. Halo’s new function on the true sight orb might allow her to study any recent magic (and she just used it on the ‘current magic’ default).
Which are all ways that it could incontrovertibly be proven (whether or not the courts will allow magic as a proof, is another matter mind). But there are also mundane ways, such as circumstantial evidence, that they could try to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Personally I think they would have a very hard time doing that.
But that ain’t my problem. I don’t think there is the evidence to safely convict here.
It really isn’t that secure, less so that a physical lock. All a perp would need to do is pass a reader near his hand, read the rfid (meant to work over a couple of feet with a strong reader), and then write the same sequence out onto another chip. Better/worse yet, it would look like he robbed the company unless there was video evidence to the contrary.
that should have been a reply to a page1 comment
Would it help if Barbarian agreed to be processed?
Would it help who, exactly, if Comb-man the Barberian agreed to be processed?
Help convince Boiler-plate and that penguin-guy behind BP
Based on the psychology of peer-pressure, it probably would- assuming, of course, that Comb-man didn’t fall under their sway, instead, and attempt to refuse to be processed.
He seems to be listening in on Sydney and Ari’s conversation, and he seems to be a good guy at heart, so it’s possible he would agree to processing
But, we will just have to wait and see
I’m not really trying to make more work for you Dave but I starting to think a rogues gallery of the more notable “Bad” guys would be useful. We could check if our guesses about their powers and/or motivations are right and understand them better. Like is so and so really that nasty or were they just reacting? Is nose boop really that dumb or was he just hyped up on testosterone? It could help explain a lot.
I’d certainly be in favor of something of that nature. Of course, for people who pledged their own OCs to the cause, maybe a link back to the original source material, where available, would be in order.
I know of at least one author (me) who adores getting comments on his own dA page…
I’m kind of baffled at the people who seemed to get off on a tangent by Sydney’s failing to understand what a bottomless well of ammunition would be, as in an endless supply of ammunition and not a water well being used to store ammunition.
It may be that they, like Sydney, only associate the word ‘well’ with water (ignoring at least two others: oil and ink)
and two more for a total of Four so far:… a Well of Suffering, i can’t remember where i heard this, maybe a Conan movie? definitely a sword-n-sorcery type of thing used by the bad guys though if it wasn’t from there… and then there is a Gravity Well (typically used for describing planets, stars, and Black Holes)
The object in the first Conan movie was a Wheel of Suffering.
WELL, i was close?! :D though I KNOW i heard of a “Well of … SomethingBad” before, i just can’t remember where… no biggie…
I don’t know about context, but perhaps you are thinking of the Well of Souls?
It’s a mixed metaphor. Some people don’t like mixed metaphors.
I know Death Toll, Vekter, and Opal weren’t affected because from the looks of the aura, Death Toll wasn’t affected.
You win bonus points for Klingon Kisses. :P
Did someone call for a Spin Doctor? ;D
I doubt anyone remember this Mac gaming at its finest. :(
Arianna is good with spin to the point of obscenity, possibly twice over. (And/or Sydney-level obscenity.)
Not quite sure she’s going to be able to pull that one off, though.
On a side note, all of these guys are going to jail. A few of these guys are going to prison. Jail is a facility to temporarily house people who are suspected or convicted of a crime, generally the longest they are held is one year. Prison on the other hand is where your sent when you are convicted, especially if you’re convicted of a felony. Once in jail you can be processed & released, processed & arraigned, held until trial, held for the length of a misdemeanor sentence, and/or held until you are transferred to a prison.
Not those who are deemed to be innocent, to the degree that even charging them is inappropriate. See panel 3 for Arianna’s legal opinion in that regard. The hairdresser in particular will not be seeing the inside of a jail cell, in my personal opinion.
Plus others can ‘volunteer to help police with their enquires’. Where they sleep is a matter of negotiation and practicality. Finding some compromise between retaining technical freedom, whilst agreeing to sufficient safeguards to discourage flight.
Perhaps staying in Archon, but in guest accommodation, rather than cells? Albeit in a guarded area. Or being allowed home, but with electronic tagging, combined with an agreement to voluntarily report in at set periods?
And, even for others who may need to be charged, there is the likelihood of bail, for those who are otherwise of good moral character and/or able to show that they not a flight risk. But, in that case, you could be technically right, in that they may see the inside of the jail, before they get bail.
Yes going. I doubt many will be staying more than a few hours (it takes some time to process a person and there’s quite a few people to be process) but they will be in “jail” at least that long. Jail does not necessarily mean a criminal record, jail doesn’t even always entail criminal charges. It does entail being held until a decision on what to legally do with you is made.
I’d have thought there were plenty of lousy jobs around for supers who weren’t particularly trusted to be paroled to under supervision, “Dirty Dozen” style
Here is an example of how the criminal justice system can compromise. Ok, this is to deal with a UK prisons issue, but the concept is similar. There was a perceived injustice (prisoners being banned from receiving books from friends and relatives). Which was campaigned against. In due course, the courts ruled in the campaigners’ favour.
Which, as a lifelong fan of reading, I very much approved of. That said, the prison service made a very valid point about the issue of maintaining security when large quantities of books will be sent in
I was pleasantly surprised to see the sensible solution that they have come up with. It is not perfect, as it precludes the option of sending in second hand books (“I read this the other day, and thought you would like it”). So it is unfair on prisoners with poorer friends and relatives. But, being able to get high-street book shops to send new books directly to prison, is a good compromise.
Hopefully, in the interests of fairness, they might be able to come to a similar arrangement with reputable second-hand book sellers. But I can see that there would be significant complications with that. Such as there being no nationwide chains*. And there would be an increased chance for tampering. **
So I can see that, if Maxima and Arianna can come up with a fair alternative to charging and prosecuting probably innocent individuals, that the suspects, the public and the courts might view it favourably.
* Unless things have changed in the recession. I have been out of touch, in another country, since before that kicked off.
** For instance, concealing contraband in books that were being sold to the book chains. Picking ones that are uncommon enough, that ordering them will likely result in those being the only ones in stock.
‘Good lord, imagine that! Why on earth would anybody stitch a file and hacksaw blade into the spine of “Fly Fishing By J.R.Hartley?” ‘
Suggestion:
Second to last panel. Strip away the speech bubbles, and convert it into an advertising banner. Add the caption “Halo, she has balls”.
I am reminded of the old saying,
“The best laid plans rarely survive first contact with the enemy”
She is right, this is any PR directors nightmare.
Before meeting Sydney, this would have been a dream come true for Ari :D
Okay. I’m done with this debate. There appear to be people who simply want to believe that the attackers were innocent of wrongdoing and deserve to be set free. Since this is not the world I live in, I simply cannot care that much. I think those people are all dreaming, and I hope that the prosecutors would look closely at the sequence of events- for instance, the fact that people were clearly making reasoned and rational decisions based on the information that was available to them on who to attack and how to attack- but I am not in control of that.
As such, I concede the point. Congratulations, I now believe that the defense will have a slam-dunk get-out-jail-free card for everybody who was involved in this fight. Hell, they can even get Vehemence off because, obviously, he was just a victim of an overload of V-juice and he would never have done anything dastardly on his own.
You win and I’m done.
I would not feel it a victory. Personally, I think many are likely guilty. I just do not think that there would be a way to safely prove that.
So, to show solidarity, with a worthy debating opponent I would like to render my verdict:
GUILTY, on the balance of probability.
With recommendations of clemency for the hairdresser and those who assisted the police.
But, not guilty, beyond reasonable doubt.
Thank you, Yorp, and I appreciate it, but I meant it. I’ve said all I care to about this debate; I’d be much more interested in speculation, for example, of what sorts of lucrative jobs some of the various characters could get down the road.
Here’s a small sampling:
Hex Laser light shows for a rock band.
Opal FTL travel cross-country for the rich and powerful
Concretia Special effects in a new Neil Gaiman movie- she can play the rock-mosters
Jabberwocky Hollywood stuntwoman
Glowbug Alternative power source for a major metropolitan city; she could be raking in the money…
What can you come up with?
I had been on the verge of jacking it in, on more than one occasion. I think it comes about from the frustration of issues that have no definitive answer. When they are arbitrary, it makes an interesting debate. When they are about things you care about, they make an impassioned, but ultimately doomed to frustration, debate.
So more than happy to turn to more entertaining topics.
The hairdresser is the most obvious candidate for a civilian job, staying in his current line. But, if he is after money and fame,* then he could cash in on the fame he will now be exposed to. And hope that it will outweigh the notoriety, that he might have to battle.
So he could be come a ‘hairdresser to the stars’. Of course, opening his own salon in Archon would be as good a route to that, as any. And it may make Archon the place for the trendy to go. Seeking to rub shoulders with super heroes. So Arianna may well support him setting up shop there.
I think his incongruous looks, compared to his personality, though, would stand him in very good stead in a variety of TV shows. Be it hairstyling and makeover, through his own talk show, or hosting things like ”Big Brother” or “I’m a Celebrity, get me off Mars!” **
Mach the Knife – Celebrity role singing in Broadway and the West End.*** Sweeney Todd, of course.
Opal – Yours is a good one. But how about the most obvious use of FTL – exploring those exo-planets, we have located around other stars? Especially if she is found guilty. It is a high hazard job, that would allow her to redeem her debt to society rapidly. The vast benefits that would return, would grant her massive goodwill and forgiveness.
Glowbug She has the looks and (petulantly amusing) personality to be entertaining front-of-camera. I could see her anchoring the New Year’s Eve build-up, and then as the chimes sound, flying up and supporting the fireworks display!
* Most people, despite what they might think, would probably be safer going for job satisfaction, over these things. But a few people can gain long-term satisfaction, via these routes, depending on their personalty.
I suspect that somebody easily lead like the hairdresser though would fair very badly in the entertainment industry. He would probably fall foul of alcoholism, drugs and extortionate agents.
** Well, they do have supers to get them there easier than we could. And that would top the ratings around the world, if they did it.
*** Depending on top speed, possibly consecutive daily shows, on both sides of the Atlantic. If some way of avoiding sonic booms, and/or similar bow waves, can be found.
That’s not bad. Honestly, I’m just trying to imagine Mach the Knife singing, period- wouldn’t it be hilarious (and sad) if his voice sped up along with his other attributes, so he came out sounding a bit like a hummingbird’s fart?
Breakpoint, unfortunately, would probably go back to caring for her brother; on the other hand, if some people with some real medical know-how took her under their wing, her ability to produce and manipulate sound along with her ability to sense weaknesses might be incredibly useful in lieu of a sonogram; she could also replace sonic lasers and sonic scrubbers for treatment of a variety of unpleasant bodily disorders and sanitation. It’s kind of a pity that her life has left her so deeply distrustful of authority figures…
Actually, I think it would be hilarious if we learned that, for instance, Boilerplate was originally a city bus driver… and, after all was said and done, he went back to that job.
The way Vekter’s nose looked broken, I suspect his civilian job probably had something to do with construction; his telekinesis would certainly make him a Hell of an asset to any number of hazardous jobs, such as deep-sea mining, demolitions… stunt coordination… (hey, who needs wires, right?)
Interesting, I must confess that I was intermixing Glowbug and Hex when I was thinking of the above points. They would both be suitable, despite just naming the one. Perhaps they could even team up. I am sure the pyrotechnics could find a way to fit lightning into their displays.
Heavenly Sword Could work in a specialist restaurant that prepares oriental food by chopping it in a showy way*
* I tried researching to find the name for one of these types, but failed miserably. But I am now better educated in table manners, should I eat at a Japanese restaurant. None of that naughtiness I indulge in, by letting my food touch other flavours and ‘contaminating’ it.
Were you, perchance, referring to a Benihana chef?
The name is not familiar, but I assumed that there would be more than one style (or, in this case chain) which did this sort of thing. But, thanks, checking out a YouTube video, of a Benihana chef, in action, that is just what I had in mind.
Check out the video, then imagine Heavenly Sword using her power to do the slicing and dicing! She could probably handle that side of the cooking, for every table in the restaurant, from one spot. :-D
Or the counter guy at the Samurai Deli? (old SNL John Belushi)
He he. I was unfamiliar with that, but the clip on YouTube was spot on how it might turn out for her.
I often thought of this. In most comic book worlds, not guilty due to mind control is a perfectly legitimate plea. I mean name one super hero who hasn’t done something regrettable while under mind control.
Just before Max gets her throat healed, please have her say
“There is no Diana, only Zuul.”
Are you the Keymaster?
Now I get the image of Sydney following her around saying, “Say it, c’mon say it, please?” Until Max relents. Without having to be prompted as to what ‘it’ is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbMNh7-osWo
That is so not what I was expecting to see, when I followed the link. Nicely played.
now i may not have said it but to me only Jabber if any of the villans should join them fora couple reasons one is originially she was going to be on the team and two the training she and math would get out of it
“Very little of this day went the way I wanted!”
Just wait until Sydney finds out the bank job was a total set-up.
Wait, this was all being filmed and broadcast live? When was that established? I actually don’t recall seeing any press at the restaurant at all until this page. Vans and a microphone were shown, but no cameras were clearly shown. I would’ve expected the comic to make a bigger deal of the fact that this was being broadcast live, if it was going to end up being worth mentioning later.
And leaving that aside, why were Suzie Wen and the others even at the restaurant? Were they filming Archon at the restaurant, too? Or were they just also having dinner there, but in a different room? And aside from the question of why they were there, where exactly were they prior to being shown outside with the vans?
Actually, I believe I’ve read that WWII era tanks stored their shells in water, to keep hits to the tank from cooking off the ammo.