Grrl Power #1280 – Kneedful things
Not the most surprising turn of events, admittedly.
Math was like “let me look at some anatomy charts for youse guys so I don’t accidentally explode your appendoid, or your vom deference, or your pancreatic couscous , or your cumulonimbus duodenum, or your exoprostate, or your tarsal areala.
But in fact he was looking for exactly the sorts of things martial artists might like to jab their one-finger push-up fingers.
And if you’re wondering why Cora’s maliens aren’t ganging up on Math, that will become relevant in a page or two. Or… three? Soon.
I think I’ve been overdoing the speedlines, so I pulled back on this page. Arguably too much? I’ll find the formula just as this sequence is coming to a close, and then forget everything I’ve learned by the time the next action scene rolls around.
The new vote incentive is up!
It’s Escorpia/Sciona, fresh off her successful… extortion campaign? I’m not sure if extortion is the right word. Addicting someone to superpowered narcotics then withholding to compel directed behavior? Kind of a ransom/extortion/generally being a butt kind of thing. There’s probably a better word for that. Anyway, check out Sciona’s business casual getup at TWC, and Patreon has a bunch of… let’s call them increasingly casual variants.
Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. Feel free to contribute as much as you like.
SuperheroThey're super, thanks for asking!
Meatspace ComicSeriously these are awesome. Check 'em out!
Not UpdatingNo longer updating or only updates sporadically, but definitely worth reading.
SeriouslySeriously you guys. If you like Grrl Power the check these out.
"Mature"Mature subject matter and occasionally something explicit but usually safe. Can't guarantee the ads are safe though.
Dongs Ahoy!Full frontal and backal. Lots of skin, sex on some or all pages, explicit or otherwise.
So is that where that alien guy’s race has their testicles?
No, that is where that alien anatomy puts his ACL and MCL, or equivalent. Math’s attack stretched those ligaments which in humans makes walked quite challenging and painful.
His comment was a callback to a Star Trek episode where Captain Kirk is fighting in an alien tournament of sorts (think it was a prison). He kicks him in the knees and the guy collapses and Kirk comments that he’s glad the guy had knees and the person next to him comments that not everyone keeps their genitals between their legs.
Movie :) Star Trek IV and yes, it was a prison.
6 not 4…
It’s been at least 30 years since I last saw that so I’m just glad I remembered it was star trek and kirk. The rest of the details aren’t as important.
I thought that was MIB and the Ballchinians
And Math shows why you NEVER decide that just because you’re bigger and stronger that you don’t have weak points. There’s a very simple hold that exploits this very thing, if you grab a hand, twist the hand with the fingers pointing up, using your thumb to press in the middle of the back of their hand while bending the wrist over the forearm, you can basically control that person. They are willing to go where ever you want them to go while begging you to let go. Cops do something similar with protestors when they refuse to clear the street. It doesn’t sound like much, but trust me, it HURTS!
Yes, all anatomies do have weak points (assuming joints). I guess an alien whose anatomy is a perfect sphere and uses telekinesis for everything probably still has weak points, just not one you’re likely to find in the middle of a fight.
That comealong hold does assume human (or pretty close to) hand anatomy. Not sure how that would work with e.g. someone with a thumb and three or five fingers. Or two thumbs. Or four digits, each pair opposable.
I’m using “thumb” as “digit that is opposable to the other digits”.
“Mr. Tentacle Hands”? Well, you’d certainly have to research it.
Also, the come-along hold fails against hypermobile people. You can’t get enough pressure to stop them from struggling.
Also, there are two variants. The nicer one you don’t even have to be hypermobile to ignore, it barely hindered me during training when I was in the Coast Guard. The backward worked pretty well, but the instructor had to use slightly higher pressure than normal to reach my threshold during the demo.
And we are talking about 30 years ago, so the way things are taught may have changed since then.
Yeah, sure, in college I did my toe touches on the stairs, palms flat on the next tread down, so I know what you’re talking about. But even I would have cried uncle by the time the back of my hand was flat against my forearm…
I used to be able to touch my thumb to my forearm going backwards. Still can do it going forwards but my hypermobility has decreased a bit so I can’t quite touch going backwards anymore.
I dunno, jellyfish are pretty weak point-less, short of being eaten/ extreme dehydration.
don’t forget tho, they’re rather spineless individuals
Jellyfish are nothing but weak points
Well almost
I’m guessing it was more that’s where a major nerve runs, thus the ‘tingle button’ in the page teaser text.
so the leg equivalent of the funny bone
The long saphenous nerve crosses the knee medially at that point, which is where it is usually blocked as an adjunct to the popliteal block, and yes, it is painful if you accidentaly graze it during anaesthesia.
Save the effort. You can achieve the same result by grabbing their thumb. Its a self-preservation response since it is pretty obvious what will happen if they resist. I’ve met a couple that can ignore it though. Those people scare me.
Based on Dave drawing what appear to be nerves in the ‘X-ray’ panel, and on Altus’ reaction, I assumed it was more akin to the human ‘funny bone’ – which is actually a bundle of nerves, not a bone.
I, too, flashed briefly to ST6: Undiscovered Country’s “Not everyone keeps their generals in the same place”
Much like the ballchinians they have things in unpractical places.
Yups, those are the ones was thinking of :)
Him and his mates that brain-fried Kay dealt to
Funny bone meets funny bone, in a hilarious collision.
No, actually I think he just fractured his elbow.
Math’ martial arts give him superhuman resistance against that kind of thing, after all he didn’t hurt his wrists either when he punted a huge concrete statue through a wall.
When he did that, he was also wearing combat boots that were steel tipped and took the brunt of the impact.
I’m not referring to the kick that initially flipped Concretia, but to the shove/palm strike that punted her through the wall afterwards.
He wasn’t wearing combat boots on his hands.
True, but she was already airborne at the time, which Matt did with one single kick, this alone suggests that despite being made from concrete, she has less mass than Altus, considering it looks like Matt dislocated his elbow with that knee attack.
“it looks like Matt dislocated his elbow with that knee attack.”
Just from his expression in the last panel, or am I missing something.
He’s lightly shaking, and he is actually tearing up in one eye (his right side, our left side). I seriously doubt Matt would tear up over simple pain, considering he just shook it off after hitting a “cinder block” of a face.
That means he either dislocated or shattered his elbow joint. Both of which would be extremely painful.
Tearing up? You’re seeing something I’m not then, both eyes are equally clear to me. I’m pretty sure he didn’t take any damage there, and his pose and wide eyes are combined with his “wooOoOo” sound to do one of those silly kung fu showoff things you see in movies
This was my take as well, Math wouldn’t feel anything from this. This kind of attack isn’t based on strength for most part and we all know that Math likes to joke around.
I don’t really think that’s a tear. I’m not sure what the shaking is supposed to be, but it can just be part of “victory dance”.
DaveB on Twitter calls it posing: https://x.com/grrlpowercomic/status/1819004645567607223
Revisiting this, the shaking is probably “exaggerated tensing of the muscles”.
Apparently concrete is 2.4 times as dense as water. Concretia was fairly tall for a female, so maybe 180 pounds if flesh, which would make concrete version somewhere around 450 pounds.
Assuming Math is normal flesh, would make him somewhere in the 210-250 pound range (muscle is quite dense).
Yeah, in a midair collision with normal physics he’s going backwards quite a bit faster than Concretia is. Punching doesn’t really change overall velocity of the collision, just the velocity of certain parts of the combined system.
Math certainly can violate physics. I suspect part of his power is an SEP field. “No, he doesn’t have powers. Yeah, if you think about it, it might look like it, but it’s not important. You nerd.”
When Concretia formed a new body after Math wrecked one, Peggy blew off part of the head, and it looked like it was a hollow shell. Of course, earlier in the same page, we saw the cross sections of a couple fingers as they broke off, and they were solid. It’s possible Concretia opted to form solid hands and forearms, and possibly feet and shins, in order to maximize strike force, but formed a hollow shell elsewhere. Her golems are almost certainly heavier than her real body, but not by quite that much if they’re mostly hollow.
I’ll also note that the assumption Math would be pushed back faster than Concretia relies on them basically being on a frictionless surface. On a surface with some friction and with a good stance – and being a master martial artist, Math certainly has that – you can push something that is heavier than you, so long as it doesn’t have as good of a grip on the ground. And, being in the air, Concretia certainly didn’t have a good grip on the ground.
I find the visuals of her blown off head difficult to interpret.
However, in https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-901-apparently-you-can-stop-the-rock/, Concretia says a moissanite body would require 800 pounds of material. That would suggest a need or at least a want to be solid.
With moissanite having a density of 3,21 g/cm^3, and humans having a density of close to 1 g/cm^3, that would imply her human body is around 250lbs (~112kg), which seems reasonable given how tall and muscular she is. Then her concrete body would be 600lb/270kg.
I think she’s supposed to be solid, but her “skin” is somewhat separate/special, leading to an appearance of a hollow shell as the skin breaks off.
Yeah, but the basic rule here is that it breaks, or you do. You hit as hard as you can, the target starts absorbing the energy, and if you break it, the energy gets used up breaking the target. The worst thing you can do is not *quite* punch hard enough, because the target springs back, returns the energy, and you get an ouchie. (Well, ok, missing and not having a plan for stopping your fist or foot can be pretty bad, too.)
Nerve strikes don’t actually break stuff, but nerve strikes on humans don’t normally require bone breaking energy levels to be effective. I guess that doing a nerve strike on somebody as hard as Altus is roughly the same as trying to break a board and failing: You get an ouchie.
Math didn’t break Concretia either (her body was cracked but in one piece.) He had to accelerate all her mass, and all that force was on his wrists. That was a much harder hit than anything you’ll see a human martial artist do.
Nah, he’s doing one of them annoying martial arts poses, also making the sound that Bruce Lee often made
I thought it was a pain response from Math at first glance, but a second look makes me think he is doing the stereotypical “woooo” of a martial artist high on adrenaline after a big hit.
I bet these guys are finding out why he’s on the team. Most of tge time Math seems to be easy going but I feel that he’s more than capable of pulling a John Wick moment if he’s given cause. I feel that The Ascenders, that moron villain group, would be stupid enough to push Math to that point.
Math might not be the deadliest member of the team, but when it comes to taking out opponents he’s probably among the top.
Maxima is the only one on the team that has actually beaten math in a standard fight. Even dabbler can’t beat him in hand to hand combat without using magic and she’s got 4 arms! (refer to page 134 in the archives).
Just having him training the heavy hitters should be worth a lot of tax money.
Mid-battle banter. Overconfidence or distraction?
Overconfidence on Altus part., he answered Math’s comment on his jaw, because he was expecting an outcome like that. I feel like Altus is used to being the unstoppable tank. Just take the blow, retaliate back. No need to speed things along, expecially in a “friendly” match.
Math is just overexcited to be fighting someone new.
As this is not a real battle they don’t mind taking a pause for smack talk. But of course not even real, lethal fights will stop supers from babbling.
Most superhero RPGs (and most RPGs in general) assume talking is a “free action”, i.e., it takes no time. For that matter, most comics do as well. I’ve seen panels where the hero says multiple paragraphs *while throwing a single punch*. Admittedly it’s generally multiple panels, but the timing is still way off.
Order of the Stick has played with that a couple of times.
OTOH Wearing the Cape has generally kept it straight, to the point where one of the chapter-starting quotes has Astra saying there’s not much dialogue and it’s usually on the order of “Give up?” or “Stay down!”
Nothing wrong with the level of speed lines in this comic in my opinion.
I rather liked the speedlines on the previous page but like lot of things, I wouldn’t want a steady diet of it.
The fact that it’s less than earlier when he was fighting all of them makes it seem like he’s deliberately going slower against just this one brick wall, to be careful and better show off his control. I like it.
These speed lines works for me
That’s right Jabber. Nobody doesn’t like back scritchies!
Ok when I assumed that they would barely be able to overpower Math I assumed that they would all attack at once, but if he can fight them one at a time then Math is going to wipe the floor with them. But of course they might still try ganging up on him on the coming pages.
The problem is that Math certainly has enough combat experience to know his way around being outnumbered and enough skill and speed to be able to think about ways to address it. [using allies to block each others’ movement and attacks, pushing/throwing allies into each other, etc] On top of that he’s really good at settling 1v1 engagements in a flash, so the window of ‘I have an opportunity because he’s busy with my ally’ is a really thin one too. Not saying that dogpiling him isn’t an option, just that they’d better get their coordination very perfect or he’s just going to turn them all into one unbroken combo string.
1. Dave said the “ganging up on” topic would be addressed soon(ish?); and
2. Two of the four opponents are currently getting back to their feet after being knocked down.
… How do we know they are getting up yet?
No surprise about the scars there. It seemed even without the Parfait incident that seemed how some of their sparring sessions would end.
As for them not (yet) ganging up on him, he took them by surprise in the opening move. I can also see them considering it not very sporting to do, at least until they’ve realized how out of their league they are one on one.
Yeah as someone already pointed out, Math has launched 200+ kg of concrete some 20-ish meter through the air. So not like he needs to do this. But i guess its a lot more fun this way. And prolongs the fight.
As for why Cora’s boys are talking their time. It seems clear that they are good guys. So they are also taking it easy initially. Going in 1 by 1 to start with to get a feel for the matchup.
FYI: pressure points really do exist. You’ll find them all over the human body. They’re a natural consequence of engineering design – you’ll even find them repeated, the same pressure points around the elbow joints can also be found around the knee joints.
No, you’re not going to inflict the “death touch’ with a single tap of your fingertip. But if you hit someone hard, JUUUST right… they’re going to FEEL it. I still remember the time I took a punch during a sparring session and my heart went into fibrillation for a little bit. Another time I took a shin kick to my elbow, and by the time I got home from the gym the joint had swollen up and was stuck at a permanent 45 degree angle. (fortunately, my sparring partner recommended something called “Stopain.” I kept applying that over night and the next day, and I was hitting the heavy bag the next evening)
Ah yes, I was taught of several such points of the body. like the bridge of the nose, sternum, solar plexus, groin, shins, and instep just to name a few. There’s also a spot in the arm pit that if it’s hit hard enough or enough times it causes the artery to swell up, starving the arm of fresh blood so it goes to sleep and you give that person a numb arm for several minutes.
My personal favorite is that pocket right behind the earlobe. Better when you’re grappling than punching, but, whoo, you won’t forget having that one hit.
THere’s also one in the armpit called the subcapularis trigger point. It causes REALLY bad shoulder pain – it attaches to the inner surface of the shoulder blade and contracts to rotate the arm and stabilize the shoulder joing. Applying pressure to this point through the underarm is supposed to be exceedingly uncomfortable.
And the solar plexus is also really painful but, more importantly, it can stop an attacker from breathing for a few seconds. Batman did that to the Hulk in a crossover, but for a different reason. Doing so caused the Hulk to then instinctively breathe in, which caused him to inhale the knockout/anesthetic gas that Batman had used.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2ba643cefc41b1141608cb2c91015132.webp
In Crisis on Two Earths, Batman had used a similar gas to knock out Superwoman (who I believe is the Earth-3 Crime Syndicate’s version of Mary Marvel, instead of Wonder Woman – who is Olympia on Earth-3).
https://youtu.be/YNEXot0r9-I?t=216
Of course the problem with using those pressure points is that a number of them, if overused, have a risk of killing the person you’re using them on. And “overuse” can be quite difficult to judge.
It’s rather like trying to render someone unconscious instead of killing them; it’s really quite hard, and often results in at least minor brain damage. There have been a few rather famous recent incidents about just that. Some of them weren’t even “render unconscious”, they were “hold this guy down”.
Yeah, people famously do not have ‘sleep mode’ buttons.
I have to wonder if making “kung fu” noises is the equivalent of “everything you ever saw involving guns in the movies.”
The kung fu noises are an outlet for tension to help keep your focus. Like sometimes you just wanna scream and once you do you feel a lot better kind of thing. Clears the head and keeps your focus on the guys you are fighting instead of the rush of blood to the brain that causes berserker moments.
The kung fu noises are an outlet for making you sound super cool like Bruce Lee.
I think the ‘kung-fu’ noise in the last panel is showing off. there are noises that go with strikes and stuff. both giving and receiving.
and noises that go with back scratches.
Thank you. Few people understood that was a showy thing. Bruce Lee did that only to distract or intimate his opponents. I always just made a small “huh” exhale, not a YEHAU, that’s just dumb. Part of martial arts is focus and controlled breathing, so yelling is a waste of energy.
And, once again, it does look very cool :)
And you MUST make the face.
the face is a move all its own
If I understand it correctly, the point is breathing out sharply as you strike, which tenses your core muscles and focuses your power.
I suspect that it is true of martial arts as well as guns, driving, and even sex. The skill lies in knowing why you are doing a thing as opposed to doing just because it looked cool in a movie.
Tinglebone – Scott Pilgrim Reference ?
Also that face in the end :)
Well. Bonus points for Math if he can hit the other knee next time xD
Does sound like the sort of bs that would amuse him.
While I’m not entirely sure how Math got to his position in panel 4… I greatly appreciate the simplified speed lines they are much better done. The punch speed lines are a bit too long and I feel give a misleading impression but I’d much rather too long than the speedlines of previous pages.
As someone with bad knees, that strike makes me cringe.
Same here, I’ve tore a ligament in my knee and a tendon in my arm, NOT fun. In two separate situations, they put a cast on my arm 6 weeks after surgery and I have to wear a brace on my knee full-time.
Some days I really wish we had Archons healers or Frix super space medical technology in real life.
Oh look. Math hit him in a weak spot with a precise strike, despite Altus being stronger and far more durable than Math.
:)
In case that was supposed to be a reference to the debate on the last page: The disagreement was about Stalwart, not Altus.
( somehow this was posted in the wrong place before)
The disagreement was that Math can hit someone far more powerful and durable than him in a weak spot. Stalwart was an example of such a person, since I was saying that Math had beaten everyone (without magic being involved) except Maxima.
Would you agree that Stalwart, as a human (albeit super) who has the ability to feel things by touch, has nerve clusters?
and the correct wording was that Only Maxima had Beaten Math, which implies he tied OR defeated everyone else, not that he beat everyone.
Fair enough.
Math has found Altus’s weak spot?!?
to restart a fun reference thread… not everyone keeps their genitals in the same place. (it kind of looks like the guy from undiscovered country.)
One of many probably.
If steel toes boots are in combat package https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-362-equipmental/
They will be practicing savate kicks because toes strikes are more efficient in this way striking with the shin compromise reach and in this case steel toes became an advantage.
Yeah, no. Depending on what you are kicking, a toe strike can cause you to break your ankle even if you are wearing combat boots with steel toes. At the very least, you will have a sprained ankle. There’s no way to fully reinforce the ankle portion of a boot and still allow for mobility in combat. That’s why shin kicks are better, just put a steel plate over the shin for self protection and to add extra weight to the kick.
The disagreement was that Math can hit someone far more powerful and durable than him in a weak spot. Stalwart was an example of such a person, since I was saying that Math had beaten everyone (without magic being involved) except Maxima.
Would you agree that Stalwart, as a human (albeit super) who has the ability to feel things by touch, has nerve clusters?
“The disagreement was that Math can hit someone far more powerful and durable than him in a weak spot.”
No, it wasn’t, and you should know, because I specifically told you “I said even his weak points are too tough for Math too hurt” when you first exposed that misunderstanding.
The discussion was about whether Math could beat up Stalwart, and we discussed several proposed ways for Math to achieve that. But the core of my disagreement with you was whether the raw power/toughness differential is too great for even martial arts force multipliers to neutralize.
“Would you agree that Stalwart, as a human (albeit super) who has the ability to feel things by touch, has nerve clusters?”
Yes, but I’m not agreeing that Math has enough power to disable Stalwart via such a nerve cluster. (He might just, given previously shown superhuman striking power. But it’s not clear to me.)
When Hiro, much stronger than Math, struck the nerve cluster in Stalwart’s testicles, Stalwart remained standing.
He was under the influence of Vehemence’s agro spell, though, at the time. A number of the combatants just dropped in their tracks the moment it was blocked, so it was clearly able to keep people going through anything that didn’t physically incapacitate them through something more than just pain.
When the aura dropped, he still remained (barely) standing, after repeatedly getting his eggs scrambled by the third strongest Archon member.
That demonstrates that the toughness of his weak points scales to the rest of him, otherwise he would have sustained some rather serious injury.
I’m just saying that, in my experience, getting nailed in the balls only hurts to a crippling extent for a short while. (As my son learned when he tried it a few years ago; I dropped to the floor, sure, but a couple seconds later he was getting the spanking of his life.) If the agro field got him past that, afterwards he could have just played tough guy while hurting like hell.
I actually was wrong entirely: Stalwart was dropped, in https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-277-aura-you-having-chowdah-at-the-cah-pahk/ he can be seen down if you zoom in.
(My previous understanding of the scene was that they kept the position and repeatedly kicked each other in the ribs and balls, respectively.)
“No, it wasn’t, and you should know, because I specifically told you “I said even his weak points are too tough for Math too hurt” when you first exposed that misunderstanding.”
Where exactly are you getting this information that Stalwart’s weak points are too tough for Math to hurt?
Again… this is an assumption you are making, outside of anything that’s been stated in the comic. Think of it like the scientific method. You don’t start with the belief that something is impossible. When lacking empirical evidence, you start with the belief that something is possible, until disproven.
“But the core of my disagreement with you was whether the raw power/toughness differential is too great for even martial arts force multipliers to neutralize.”
I think you might need to read that thread again. I stated, very specifically, that if Math cannot beat someone in a raw strength to strength comparison, he would use his skill, speed, leverage, etc to win instead, by focusing his best attacks where his opponent (in the example given, Stalwart) is weakest. In your argument’s die, you have been gifting Stalwart advantages which have never been shown in the comic.
“When Hiro, much stronger than Math, struck the nerve cluster in Stalwart’s testicles, Stalwart remained standing.”
1) That wasn’t Hiro trying to hit a nerve cluster – it was him just trying to stomp Stalwart’s groin.
2) Hiro was under Vehemence’s aura spell thing, which was SPECIFICALLY making it so they would not go hard enough to incapacitate each other so they can keep fighting, fueling Vehemence’s powers.
“Where exactly are you getting this information that Stalwart’s weak points are too tough for Math to hurt?
Again… this is an assumption you are making, outside of anything that’s been stated in the comic.”
No, it’s not an assumption. It’s something I explicitly derived from the comic, specifically Hiro’s groin attack.
“I stated, very specifically, that if Math cannot beat someone in a raw strength to strength comparison, he would use his skill, speed, leverage, etc to win instead, by focusing his best attacks where his opponent (in the example given, Stalwart) is weakest.”
And my counterargument was that the strength difference was so great that this wouldn’t work, because Math’ strongest attack couldn’t hurt even Stalwart’s weak points. Speed and skill and leverage are force multipliers, they make your strength more effective. They can not replace strength entirely. A strike to a weak point still relies on your striking power. This just isn’t obvious because in real life everyone’s strength is in the same ballpark, and everyone’s soft tissues are equally soft. With superhumanly tough Stalwart, this isn’t the case. And there’s a limit to how much of an effect those force multipliers can have.
“1) That wasn’t Hiro trying to hit a nerve cluster – it was him just trying to stomp Stalwart’s groin.”
The testicles have a lot of nerves too, that’s part of why they’re so vulnerable. The principle is the same. And while Hiro wasn’t precisely targeting, he was making up for it by repeated kicking and grinding. If Stalwart hadn’t been super tough, even relative to Hiro’s strength, he would have sustained serious injury and gone straight down after the aura wore off. Instead, he was in pain, but standing and in control of his senses. https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-279-high-risk-reversal/
“No, it’s not an assumption. It’s something I explicitly derived from the comic, specifically Hiro’s groin attack.”
Groin attacks are not the same as a martial arts ‘hitting a nerve cluster.’ And again, I’m not sure how you determined what amount of strength is necessary to hit a nerve cluster. You are making assumptions on the minimum required force. Not to mention the context of the groin attack is completely different than a martial arts strike to a specific nerve cluster.
“And my counterargument was that the strength difference was so great that this wouldn’t work, because Math’ strongest attack couldn’t hurt even Stalwart’s weak points. ”
Your counterargument has no basis in the comic so far.
“A strike to a weak point still relies on your striking power.”
Spider-Man has been able to beat Juggernaut by jumping out of the way then hitting him in the back while he was running forward. It’s not always about your own striking power – it’s sometimes about redirecting the other person’s own strength, or using their own strength against them.
For example, the reason a wrist lock can work so well, even with a smaller, weaker person against a stronger person, is because you’re getting the other person in a position where the more THEY use strength, the more theyt hurt THEMSELVES. Same principle generally – if you can’t beat a person because they’re too strong, and you’re some sort of supernaturally gifted martial artist, you use your superior martial arts skill against their weakest point. Stalwart is not Achilles. He does have weak spots. I’m not sure where you’ve gotten the idea that he doesn’t just because Hiro kicked him in the groin while they were both being controlled by Vehemence, who wanted the fight to keep going. Remember btw, the Vehemic aura was also nullifying their pain and any toxins in their bodies (probably because of adrenaline).
“The testicles have a lot of nerves too, that’s part of why they’re so vulnerable”
Much as you might think it, kicking the groin is not the same ‘focused pinpoint attack’ as a strike to a nerve cluster. It’s a more broad attack – larger area of the striking object (sole of the food vs edge of the fist/hand/etc). A rock being thrown at you vs a bullet or slingshot pebble being shot at you.
“If Stalwart hadn’t been super tough, even relative to Hiro’s strength, he would have sustained serious injury”
1) Stalwart’s statement seemed more like bravado than fact, given how he was barely able to talk at that point.
2) Maxima literally said after the fight “Seems Vehemence’s aura just made people fight, not kill. HE MAY ACTUALLY BE A BIG REASON FOR THE NULL BODY COUNT TONIGHT.” then Harem said “THE WORST INJURIES WERE MOSTLY DONE BY V.”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-290-after-action-action/
I don’t see anything to show any sort of specific ‘minimum required force’ to Stalwart’s weak points or nerve clusters. And even if we were to say his testicles were powerful too, that doesn’t say anything about any other weak spots or nerve clusters.
“Stalwart is not Achilles. He does have weak spots. I’m not sure where you’ve gotten the idea that he doesn’t”
If you still think that’s my position, I’m running out of ideas for how to explain my actual position to you.
My position is (or was, see below) that Stalwart’s weak spots are still tough enough to resist Math. Nothing about him not having weak spots. Nothing about Math not being able to target them.
“Spider-Man has been able to beat Juggernaut by jumping out of the way then hitting him in the back while he was running forward.”
That could simply be the author of that comic having the same misconception as you. I already told you I don’t consider something happening in a comic good evidence it’s plausible, because things that happen in comics don’t always make sense.
“For example, the reason a wrist lock can work so well, even with a smaller, weaker person against a stronger person, is because you’re getting the other person in a position where the more THEY use strength, the more theyt hurt THEMSELVES.”
A wristlock in reality is applied by a human to another human. Their strength and toughness are in the same ballpark. If a martial artist (or Math, who is only slightly stronger when it doesn’t come to strikes) tried to wristlock Stalwart, Stalwart could just flex out of it and only notice some pressure. Actually, he wouldn’t even be able to apply it even without resistance, because Stalwart’s hand weighs more than he can lift. Wrestling him would feel like wrestling an iron statue.
“Much as you might think it, kicking the groin is not the same ‘focused pinpoint attack’ as a strike to a nerve cluster. It’s a more broad attack – larger area of the striking object (sole of the food vs edge of the fist/hand/etc).”
I don’t think so. The contact area isn’t just about the striking part, but also about the target. Testicles are very small, a solid hit there will have a similar cross section as Math’ elbow tip or fingertips.
And testicles are as soft and sensitive as any part of the human body gets.
“1) Stalwart’s statement seemed more like bravado than fact, given how he was barely able to talk at that point.”
I’ll have to admit I was wrong about that part actually, because we’ve been misinterpreting the scene. If you zoom in on the panorama panel in https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-277-aura-you-having-chowdah-at-the-cah-pahk/, you can see Stalwart curled up on his knees, so it seems Hiro’s attack actually properly disabled him. So Hiro is indeed strong enough to take out Stalwart with a strike to the weak points, so whether Math is strong enough becomes more of an open question. Given Stalwart’s extreme toughness and that Math is pretending to be just a skilled human, I’m still thinking not, but I’m no longer certain.
“2) Maxima literally said after the fight “Seems Vehemence’s aura just made people fight, not kill. HE MAY ACTUALLY BE A BIG REASON FOR THE NULL BODY COUNT TONIGHT.” then Harem said “THE WORST INJURIES WERE MOSTLY DONE BY V.””
So it’s like I said, Stalwart wasn’t injured by a supersonic kick to the balls, showing how tough he is.
Hiro wasn’t trying to kill him, sure, that can be seen by how he didn’t attack after Stalwart went down. That doesn’t mean he pulled his punches, he knew how tough Stalwart is and that he can withstand that kind of attack without dying, or even long-term injury. Goose and Mach the Knife were stabbing each other with knives. The aura didn’t make people pull punches or avoid injuries.
“I don’t see anything to show any sort of specific ‘minimum required force’ to Stalwart’s weak points”
It’s not specific: Everyone has a minimum required force to hurt their weak points. But for most people, this force is achievable for any healthy adult human, so it doesn’t really come up. For Stalwart, due to his generally increased toughness, the minimum force is higher and out of the range for normal people, and whether Math can achieve it isn’t clear.
“And even if we were to say his testicles were powerful too, that doesn’t say anything about any other weak spots or nerve clusters.”
We know Stalwart’s powers, they’re not in any way related to his balls specifically. It’s generally increased density and toughness. That will affect every part of his body equally.
“My position is (or was, see below) that Stalwart’s weak spots are still tough enough to resist Math. Nothing about him not having weak spots. Nothing about Math not being able to target them.”
Yes I understand what you are saying, but the logical result of what you are saying is that any superstrong person’s weak spots are not actually weak spots. Which has no actual basis in the comic for you to think of as a fact. The idea that Stalwart’s weak spots are still far more powerful than Math’s ability to hurt or manipulate is cut from whole cloth – not based on anything we’ve actually seen that’s on point. It’s your assumption. You shouldn’t assume something that hasnt been specifically hinted at in the comic though. You have to make some logical leaps which are not certain in order to get there. The only person we know who’s weak spots ARE too strong for Math to exploit is Maxima.
“That could simply be the author of that comic having the same misconception as you.”
You are making another assumption. I’m basing it on what is actually in a comic. And even what is in the comic is based at least somewhat on logic. Once something has built up some momentum, it’s difficult to make it stop on a time, but it’s very easy to increase the momentum by applying some external force.
“I already told you I don’t consider something happening in a comic good evidence it’s plausible,”
It’s plausible in the grrlpower universe. Which is also a comic. It’s somewhat meta at times and debunks certain comic tropes, but Sydney still does use comic logic in her strategies, which turn out to work.
Until you can show that there’s something specifically that has been said to refute the internal logic in the comic regarding Math’s super martial arts, you’re not going to be able to convince me that he can’t hurt Stalwart – especially when there are several things in the comic that have implied that he can.
“I don’t think so. The contact area isn’t just about the striking part, but also about the target. Testicles are very small, a solid hit there will have a similar cross section as Math’ elbow tip or fingertips.”
The smaller a point of contact is with the same force as a larger object, the more damage it will do. Or at least the more pain it will cause. That’s pretty much the entire purpose of bulletproof vests, for example. It disperses the amount of force to a broader region, which makes it have less damage on the person wearing the vest. Same principle here- You kick someone in the groin, it’s going to hurt. You shoot someone in the groin, they’re in the hospital or morgue from bleeding out. Taking this and moving to a fight between Math and Stalwart, a more focused attack on, say, the connecting tissue of one of many weak spots, or hitting exactly where the nerve cluster is ‘clustered’ is going to be exponentially more effective than a stomp in that general area which includes the place where the nerves are. One is more dispersed than the other.
“And testicles are as soft and sensitive as any part of the human body gets.”
The throat, the eyes, the back of the knee, and several places where there’s connecting tissue WITHOUT muscle or bone in the way are all other extremely weak points. Your argument keeps being that Stalwart is too tough. What part of Stalwart is too tough? His muscles? His bones? His soft tissue? And why do you think that, based on what’s been shown in the comic? Muscles and bone, yes that’s been shown. Soft tissue? It hasn’t. If anything it’s shown that soft tissue IS vulnerable, and hasnt shown what is the minimum amount of damage necessary to hurt those areas.
“So Hiro is indeed strong enough to take out Stalwart with a strike to the weak points, so whether Math is strong enough becomes more of an open question. ”
1) If it’s an open question, saying he can’t is an assumption not founded on anything that’s been stated in the comic.
2) The more focused a strike is to the EXACT area of the vulnerable part, the more it will hurt. And I’d say Math is likely going to be better at exact strikes than a mind-controlled Hiro, based on what we’ve both seen in the comics and have had said about Math by others.
“Given Stalwart’s extreme toughness and that Math is pretending to be just a skilled human, I’m still thinking not, but I’m no longer certain.”
Thanks :) BTW I’m not saying your assumption might not be true – just that it’s not based on what’s been said in the comic, and I tend to operate by the idea that if I can’t connect it to something that’s been said or happened in the comic, it’s not true. Yet. Or by DaveB if he decides to do a ‘Word of God’ thing to settle the question.
“So it’s like I said, Stalwart wasn’t injured by a supersonic kick to the balls, showing how tough he is.”
Yes he’s tough, but the strike itself was dispersed by being done by the sole of the foot i. nstead of, say, a kick with the tip of the foot to a specific area where the nerves are specifically. Like by the ilioinguinal and genitofemoral nerves, or the perineal branches of the pudendal nerves, rather than by something in the target’s body which then in turn hits those nerves.
“Hiro wasn’t trying to kill him, sure, that can be seen by how he didn’t attack after Stalwart went down. That doesn’t mean he pulled his punches,”
It actually does mean he pulled his punches. Or upwards stomps in this case. Also the direction of how the kick was made was also likely where Hiro’s strength came in rather than skill. Hiro was stomping upward with the sole of his foot while he was on the ground with Stalwart’s foot stomping his chest. That’s going to require more strength than what Math might be doing. Plus, again, there are many other nerve clusters in the body and weak spots that can be exploited which bypass stuff like Stalwart’s muscles and bones and organs, and go directly for the nerve endings themselves. Like what Math just did to Altus from how the nerve was specifically drawn and highlighted as the target of the strike.
“Goose and Mach the Knife were stabbing each other with knives.”
And yet Mach was not moving so fast as to make sure Goose couldnt hit him at all, which means he was not using his full speed. Goose, unlike Math, has never been described as being so good a fighter as to not be able to distinguish whether or not he has powers, even though he’s a tough guy for a human. And the stabs were obviously not in vital areas, which means they WERE avoiding the more severe injuries and ‘pulling’ their punches. Otherwise I can’t really see how Goose could even land a hit on a speedster of Mach the Knife’s shown superspeed. The only ones that seem to be able to in the comic were Harem (who managed to do it by being literally in two places at the same time (Mach is fast but he can only focus on one place at one time) and (possibly) Maxima, since she had been saying that she would handle him if no one else could when she first spotted Mach the Knife and identified him as a speedster. Even with Maxima, I wouldn’t assume she COULD, just that it’s more likely than not since she DOES also have superspeed, and has the ability to maximize it if need be.
“It’s not specific: Everyone has a minimum required force to hurt their weak points.”
And that force has not been shown in the comic yet. The whole point of saying something is a weak point is that… it’s going to be a weak point – an achilles heel of vulnerability. I think, from what we’ve seen and been told about Math, that Math is skilled enough to be able to get past whatever defensive protection Stalwart has to protect those weak points, or Stalwart might not even know those weak points exist (like Altus did not here, or at least underestimated Math’s ability to find and exploit it).
“For Stalwart, due to his generally increased toughness, the minimum force is higher and out of the range for normal people,”
I don’t consider Math to be a normal person, and the comic has gone out of its way several times to say that he either is not a normal person or it’s so difficult to figure out if he is or isn’t makes the question irrelevant, and it’s just going to be assumed (BY THE COMIC ITSELF) that he is not a normal person.
“and whether Math can achieve it isn’t clear.”
And that is why I keep saying that you are making an assumption. Your assumption is that it is clear that he cannot achieve that result. I’m saying he might be able to because it has not been disproven yet, so you should go at it from a basis that he can until proof is shown that he can’t.
“We know Stalwart’s powers, they’re not in any way related to his balls specifically. It’s generally increased density and toughness.”
It’s actually mass, not density. They’re different. Related in formulae, but they’re still different things and you then have to take volume into account as well. Mass refers to the amount of matter contained within an object or substance, regardless of its volume or size. Density, on the other hand, compares the mass of an object or substance to its volume, providing information about how tightly packed the matter is within a given space.
“Yes I understand what you are saying, but the logical result of what you are saying is that any superstrong person’s weak spots are not actually weak spots.”
No, it isn’t. They’re still weak spots, because they’re weaker than the rest of him.
The gate is the weak spot of a wall, because it’s the only part that isn’t massive stonework – but it’s still thick, reinforced wood, and you need a battering ram to get through. The weak spot of a tank is the rear armor – but that’s still steel plate. A pistol won’t punch through, but an autocannon might. That means it’s still a weak spot compared to the front armor which is half a meter thick and needs a 120mm APFSDS penetrator.
And no, this doesn’t apply to any superstrong person, although it should certainly be the default assumption. Someone whose strength comes from a terminator-like reinforced skeleton, for example, won’t necessarily have stronger skin – although that opens questions about him hurting himself using his powers (breaking his skin when punching something hard or similar things), that’s why unless it’s specifically pointed out, one should assume that’s not the case. I read a book once where a character with reinforced muscles and skeleton punches through a wall – and destroys the skin over his titanium knuckles. This book describes it correctly. In some ways, everything being stronger can be considered a required secondary power.
Specifically, it applies to Stalwart. Stalwart’s power is to make his body more massive. Not his muscles or bones, his body. There is no reason his nerves should be exempt from this, and plenty that it isn’t even possible. What would happen if Stalwart increased the mass and durability of everything but his nerves? Nothing good, they’d get crushed under the weight of the surrounding tissue.
We also know that his testicles are stronger, from surviving a supersonic kick. Otherwise they’d have gotten pasted between his pelvis and Hiro’s heel. That’s soft tissue. We also know his skin is stronger, because he doesn’t bleed on his knuckles everytime he throws a punch.
When you say we haven’t seen anything in the comic supporting it, that’s not true, but if it were, I’d still hold the position, because it follows from abstract analysis.
“The only person we know who’s weak spots ARE too strong for Math to exploit is Maxima.”
We can be quite certain, because we know how her toughness works (everything reinforced by a force field, so no “super-weak” weakpoints) and by scaling: Peggy’s .50 rifle hits harder than Math, as it broke Concretia’s head, whereas Math’s kick didn’t, and that same rifle couldn’t take out Vehemence’s weakest spot (his eye) when he wasn’t stronger than Maxima.
But we don’t know it from the outcome of their spar: Maxima can simply win those because she has superspeed and is fast enough to simply slap away any strike at her weak points. That’s also why I think Ren could beat Math.
“You are making another assumption. I’m basing it on what is actually in a comic.”
You still don’t understand what “assumption” means. And if you base your understanding of how things work on comic books, you set yourself up for failure.
“Once something has built up some momentum, it’s difficult to make it stop on a time, but it’s very easy to increase the momentum by applying some external force.”
Not how it works. The bigger the momentum, the bigger a momentum change needs to be to make an appreciable difference. And it’s not much more difficult to stop than it was to accelerate to begin with. The “more difficult to stop than go faster” is, if I understand it correctly, explicitly a facet of the Juggernaut’s power.
“Until you can show that there’s something specifically that has been said to refute the internal logic in the comic regarding Math’s super martial arts, you’re not going to be able to convince me that he can’t hurt Stalwart – especially when there are several things in the comic that have implied that he can.”
We had a long discussion about whether anything in the comic actually implies that he can. You don’t get to just declare that a fact. It’s not “internal logic in the comic”. It’s your logic trying to derive things from the comic. And if your logic is faulty, then nothing else from the comic is needed, only analysis of your logic itself.
“The smaller a point of contact is with the same force as a larger object”
My point is that the point of contact isn’t smaller. If Hiro is hitting the balls, the cross section is no bigger than the balls, which are no bigger than Math’s elbow. The balls are getting hit first, and all the force will be on them. (Stalwart is wearing pants, but at those forces, this won’t make much of a difference.)
“What part of Stalwart is too tough? His muscles? His bones? His soft tissue? And why do you think that, based on what’s been shown in the comic?”
His everything. And I think it because we have seen it in the comic, and because his power implies it. See above, I don’t think I should repeat myself too much.
“If it’s an open question, saying he can’t is an assumption not founded on anything that’s been stated in the comic.”
No, it was a conclusion based on an analysis of the comic. And I retracted it because I found that the analysis was incorrect.
But I still think it’s likely, from what I’ve seen of Math’s striking power. Especially his current performance against Altus, who isn’t moved by Math’s hardest strikes. His performance against Concretia looks stronger, but not strong enough to definitely say he can.
“The more focused a strike is to the EXACT area of the vulnerable part, the more it will hurt. And I’d say Math is likely going to be better at exact strikes than a mind-controlled Hiro, based on what we’ve both seen in the comics and have had said about Math by others.”
A strike to the groin doesn’t need to be extremely focused to to maximum damage. That’s level is reached when you hit the specific target and nothing else, but since the testicles are out from the groin, that’s not hard to achieve. And beyond that, “extra” precision will not gain anything.
“And yet Mach was not moving so fast as to make sure Goose couldnt hit him at all, which means he was not using his full speed. Goose, unlike Math, has never been described as being so good a fighter as to not be able to distinguish whether or not he has powers, even though he’s a tough guy for a human.”
No, we have word of god from the comments on that page that it’s Goose’s reflexes: “Goose may look like Duke Nukem, but he’s essentially the point man from FEAR. He has crazy reflexes. It’s not literally super speed, but it’s close.”
What kind of agression aura did you think would make Mach slow down when that means taking knife wounds he doesn’t have to?
“And the stabs were obviously not in vital areas, which means they WERE avoiding the more severe injuries and ‘pulling’ their punches”
No, it means they got lucky. The way to avoid serious knife wounds is to not stab people with knives. Goose was also shooting at Mach (panorama on #277). He wasn’t going for the kill, but he wasn’t taking pains to avoid it either.
No, there definitely were no punches pulled.
“I don’t consider Math to be a normal person”
Neither do I, which you’d know if you’d finished reading the sentence before responding. :( Please start doing that.
“I’m saying he might be able to because it has not been disproven yet, so you should go at it from a basis that he can until proof is shown that he can’t.”
There is no reason “he can do it” should be preferred as a null hypothesis over “he can’t do it”. If we don’t have evidence, it has to be “we don’t know whether he can do it”.
“It’s actually mass, not density.”
It’s actually both. Since Stalwart isn’t growing, he’s increasing his density along with his mass, and the density is part of what makes him so durable.
“They’re still weak spots, because they’re weaker than the rest of him.”
You have no actual basis for saying that as a factual statement. Also I was reading through stuff and you said in a different post that Math was able to propel Concretia from inside the restaurant, through a window, using just the ball of his palms, and into Death Toll, who had not bothered to move the entire fight btw (Death Toll then swatted her aside all imperiously-like). Math did this after causing Concretia to go off the ground and into the air with a ‘KRAKOOOOM!’ sound… while his hands were still in his pockets. Casually.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-209-dramatic-speed-lines-ensue/
Concretia also has superstrength and super-toughness, evidenced with how, with one punch, she sent Achilles sailng into the air through the roof of the restaurant (part of the roof that had NOT been already destroyed, judging from the last panel), and flung Mr Amorphous through a window with one hand, easily, by his face.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-208-arc-light-earns-their-keep/
As we can see in the last panel of THIS comic, Death Toll was pretty far away from the restaurant itself as well – in the middle of the parking lot, one car parking spot closer than where Vektor and Opal were (who were near the back of the attacking group). This is quite a distance away.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-204-i-guess-everyone-parked-in-the-back/
So I still don’t understand why you don’t think that Math, after doing something like that to someone superstrong and super-durable, could not likewise beat Stalwart if he focused that type of skill on Stalwart’s weak spots or a nerve cluster.
“Specifically, it applies to Stalwart. Stalwart’s power is to make his body more massive.”
Again going to need to be a bit nit-picky. His power is to increase the mass of his body, not make his body more massive. Especially since, upon reflection, I agree that you were correct when you said that since he does not actually grow in size (ie, become more massive) he actually IS increasing his density after all)
“We had a long discussion about whether anything in the comic actually implies that he can. You don’t get to just declare that a fact.”
Literally the core subject of what you’ve been doing has been declaring things a fact. Namely that Stalwart’s weak points are too tough for Math to affect, no matter what he does.
“His [here you are referring to Stalwart] everything. And I think it because we have seen it in the comic, and because his power implies it. See above, I don’t think I should repeat myself too much.”
1) You have not shown that his weakest points can be increased/toughened to a point where Math cannot hurt it. The reason I asked what parts of him toughens is because a bone increasing it’s density (which I do agree upon reflection is what Stalwart’s power is doing) is not the same as increasing soft tissue’s density. The latter may still be possible to hurt with Math’s precision and strength (even if inferior strength to Stalwart). You were acting like Stalwart’s entire body increases in mass to the same hardness everywhere. Like that hitting him in his head would be the same hardness as hitting him in his groin or his armpit or his throat or the back of his knee. At least that’s how it was reading.
2) We have NOT seen it in the comic. (in response to the second sentence in your quote, since you don’t want me breaking your sentence into parts)
“What kind of agression aura did you think would make Mach slow down when that means taking knife wounds he doesn’t have to?”
The type of aggression aura that wants both people to survive, instead of Mach the Knife slicing up Goose 100 times before he can slice him back once. Have you seen the animated movie, Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay? Bronze Tiger (a human expert fighter) had to fight Zoom (a speedster). Zoom proceeded to use a tiny knife to slash Bronze Tiger 1000 or so times (Death of a thousand cuts) to fatally wound Tiger, before Tiger can even manage to hurt Zoom once (he eventually does hurt him by slicing off his fingers, but only because Deadshot was distracting Zoom and figured Tiger was already dead). Mach the Knife would HAVE to be going a lot slower than he can in order for the fight to keep going, which was the entire point of the aggression aura – dead people cannot fight anymore.
Again – Maxima said this outright.
“Goose was also shooting at Mach”
And not hitting him. But when they were trading knife b lows, Mach slowed down so each of them could be inflicting violence on each other. This would no logical sense in a fight, except the aggression aura was prioritizing FIGHTING, not killing. Knives are easier to use if Vehemence wanted both of them to keep living.
“No, it means they got lucky.”
No, it was INTENTIONAL. They were being controlled by Vehemence’s violence aura to do violence, but not to kill. Mach and Goose, and everyone else, was not in control of their actions during the violence aura. If they were, Stalwart and Hiro would not have been fighting EACH OTHER. Plus again, Maxima said outright that’s why there was a zero body count. Harem suggested that too.
“Neither do I, which you’d know if you’d finished reading the sentence before responding.”
Read the very next thing -I- wrote, where I quote THE VERY NEXT PART OF YOUR SENTENCE. And you did NOT say you did not consider Math to be a normal person – you said “and whether Math can achieve it isn’t clear.”
Why are you saying ” if you’d finished reading the sentence before responding. :( ” In this case I DID. I’m not trying to be rude to you – I’m trying to be exact in responding to your arguments – point by point. You don’t need to be rude to me either.
“There is no reason “he can do it” should be preferred as a null hypothesis over “he can’t do it”. If we don’t have evidence, it has to be “we don’t know whether he can do it”.”
If we were in a court of law, I’d completely agree with you because the presumption in a court of law (at least for criminal court) is ‘innocent until proven guilty.’ IE, you start by assuming something did NOT happen, and have to prove that it did. However, this is more of a scientific inquiry we’re having. And in the scientific method, you don’t start with assuming something is not possible. In the scientific method, you start with the premise that something IS possible, and then try to DISPROVE it. Completely different set of presumptions are required. Evidenced by the fact that you even call it a ‘null hypothesis.’ Which is a pretty accurate description of what we are doing.
And that’s why the null hypothesis is that he can do it until you can either show otherwise or show where, in the comic, it’s been shown to be otherwise.
“It’s actually both. Since Stalwart isn’t growing, he’s increasing his density along with his mass, and the density is part of what makes him so durable.”
I’ll give you this because you’re correct here. Since his volume isnt increasing, the formula for density (p=m/V,) means his density would also increase (although it’s not at the same amount – ie, he’s not directly increasing his density – it’s increasing as a side effect of increasing his mass).
“You have no actual basis for saying that as a factual statement.”
What? This is a conceptual, arguably semantic discussion of what “weak point” means. Not “factual”. It needs no basis, it stands for itself.
“Concretia also has superstrength and super-toughness”
Super-strength, yes, but that doesn’t imply super-toughness. While normally it should, Grrl Power explicitly has a concept of “super-strength toughness”, where strength doesn’t imply toughness.
“Still she’s got that ‘super strength toughness’ at the moment like you see in comics, where she’s not particularly bulletproof, but still somehow doesn’t rip all the skin off her hand when punching him hard enough to cause a localized tectonic upheaval.” https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-283-tectonic-uppercut/
Math can also punch harder than his regular strength would imply, and still doesn’t get damaged from it.
Concretia probably has super-toughness, just from her “I’m stronger than concrete” statement, but we can’t derive exactly how tough she is from her strength.
The feat is still blatantly superhuman, but as extremely tough as Stalwart is, it’s unclear whether it’s enough even with weak points.
“So I still don’t understand why you don’t think that Math, after doing something like that to someone superstrong and super-durable, could not likewise beat Stalwart if he focused that type of skill on Stalwart’s weak spots or a nerve cluster.”
Well, previously from the no longer endorsed reading of the groin attack scene, which would have put a very high lower bound on the toughness of Stalwart’s weak points. Now I’m no longer sure.
Also, his current performance against Altus looks significantly weaker than Concretia feat, which always looked outrageous and not really what Math is supposed to be, so I’m unsure whether that feat even represents him or whether DaveB is basically retconning how hard Math strikes.
” You were acting like Stalwart’s entire body increases in mass to the same hardness everywhere. Like that hitting him in his head would be the same hardness as hitting him in his groin or his armpit or his throat or the back of his knee. At least that’s how it was reading.”
That’s not was I was saying at all. For example, in my last post I said “[his weak points] are weaker than the rest of him”
Instead, my position is that there’s an equal durability factor everywhere. His bones are 1000x stronger than normal human bones. His testicles are 1000x stronger than normal testicles. His throat is 1000x stronger than a normal throat etc. That’s because everything should be affected by his power equally.
That doesn’t mean this throat is as strong as his bones. But still very strong.
“We have NOT seen it in the comic.”
We have seen that his testicles are tougher than normal.
“(in response to the second sentence in your quote, since you don’t want me breaking your sentence into parts)”
You can break my sentences into parts if you want. I just don’t want you to misrepresent those parts, especially not by ignoring the context in the same sentence.
“The type of aggression aura that wants both people to survive”
Absolutely not, because “wanting to survive” generally implies avoiding getting stabbed. Knife wounds are very dangerous, you can’t have a meaningful knife fight without risking hitting an artery or other dangerous parts.
“Mach the Knife would HAVE to be going a lot slower than he can in order for the fight to keep going”
No. I literally already quoted Word of God where DaveB explained why Goose was able to hit Mach – crazy reflexes: https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-290-after-action-action/comment-page-1/#comment-293207
Your model where the violence is measured is measured to keep going doesn’t make sense, especially not with regards to Hiro’s actions. Because after Hiro’s groin strike, the fight between him and Stalwart was indeed over. If he prioritised keeping the fight going to the point of pulling his punches, he’d just have chosen a different counterattack.
Vehemence was making people aggressive, but not murderous. But not anti-murderous either, remember, under the influence Sydney was willing to take his head off with the PPO. https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-280-an-inauspicious-start/. Mach and Goose used weapons because they normally do. This was dangerous, so if they had really wanted to just do a showfight, they’d have dropped their weapons and used bare hands.
Maxima’s judgment is probably simply wrong, especially as Harem said that the worst happened under the influence of the aura.
“I’m not trying to be rude to you – I’m trying to be exact in responding to your arguments – point by point.”
Okay, but that’s not really working. You’re repeatedly misrepresenting my position then ignoring my attempts at clarification to the point I’m starting to wonder why I’m even trying. This becomes rather frustrating at times.
“And you did NOT say you did not consider Math to be a normal person – you said “and whether Math can achieve it isn’t clear.” ”
If I say “normal person can’t do it” and “Math might be able to do it” right next to each other, then it directly follows that I don’t consider Math a normal person. I was contrasting Math with a normal person.
“And in the scientific method, you don’t start with assuming something is not possible. In the scientific method, you start with the premise that something IS possible, and then try to DISPROVE it.”
I think you might be confusing two meanings of “possible”. To be clear, the null hypothesis should be “It’s possible Math is able to do it” which is equivalent to “it’s possible Math is unable to do it”, not “it’s possible for Math to do it”.
(Actually, the null hypothesis in science is more along the lines of “nothing interesting is happening here”, and then you try to prove there’s something interesting. This is just adapting the concept.)
Spiderman being able to push Juggernaut is not that exceptional. Juggernaut’s power is about not being stopped, NOT about not being hurried up awkwardly from behind. IT’s well known as the best means to get him out of an area, although it doesn’t actually harm him.
Go back to the aftermath fight of when the aliens invaded after Sydney returned home. They are doing a scan of Stalwart. “I’m incredibly tough for my biomass, but it’s like you’re surrounded in forcefields and tractor beams.”
Stalwart’s invulnerabilty matches his strength. His ability to control his weight/mass is secondary. He has normal invulnerability, not increased hardness.
The point is that Juggernaut is ridiculously stronger than Spider-Man, so Spider-Man fights him by NOT going strength vs strength – he uses Juggernauts own momentum against him instead.
“I’m incredibly tough for my biomass, but it’s like you’re surrounded in forcefields and tractor beams.””
Altus is larger than Stalwart. and he doesnt ACTUALLY have forcefields and tractor beams – Altus is using the closest comparison he can think of to explain Stalwart’s strength and durability. The only one who actually has anything that might be considered a forcefield is Maxima having an ‘armor’ power, which seems to also cover her clothes mostly. Unlike people like Stalwart or Hiro.
Also, nothing you wrote says that his toughness makes him invulnerable. Everything we know about his power, as Voyager actually has said also, is from his ability to alter his mass (and thus also his density). So yes, it IS increased hardness.
Eh, Pander, he’s literally saying that directly to Stalwart, while right next to them Woof and the other guy are scanning Maxima with doodads. It’s not an allegory.
To be utterly fair, you can’t have superstrength without internal force fields, because ‘dense flesh’ just means you can’t pump your blood through yourself, or it’s at such high pressure that if you bleed it spurts out like a water laser hard enough to kill something.
Stalwart’s ability to manipulate his mass and weight doesn’t need to have anything to do with his invulnerability at all, and by the tech scans, it actually isn’t dependent on it.
So, I’m of the opinion that he’s probably one of the guys Math broke even against, probably because Stalwart couldn’t lay a hand on him, but Math was basically unable to hurt the big fellow at all due to the combination of invulnerability and weight making him impossible to hurt with the force Math could bring to bear and the weight making it impossible for him to move Stalwart. Trying to punch someone weighing twenty tons is just a good way to break your hand, and trying to deflect an arm weighing a thousand pounds or something a good way to break your own arm.
“Eh, Pander, he’s literally saying that directly to Stalwart, while right next to them Woof and the other guy are scanning Maxima with doodads.”
They’re scanning MAXIMA, not Stalwart.
” It’s not an allegory.”
Since you have used exact wording against me elsewhere, let me return the favor. :)
His EXACT wording is “I’m remarkably strong for my biomass. But you… it’s LIKE you’re saturated in force fields and tractor beams… well, repulsor beams. It goes so far beyond biological limitations.”
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-769-incoming-eventually/
(Panel 2)
Also, I did not say allegory. I said that he doesnt ACTUALLY have force fields and tractor beams, and Altus is using the closest COMPARISON he can to think of to explain Stalwart’s strength and durability, since it goes so far above what a normal biological limitation should be. That’s why he uses the word LIKE instead of IS. Because Stalwart is not covered in force fields and tractor beams. But Altus is trying to figure out how Stalwart can do what he can, and the closest technological comparison he can come up with is being saturated in force fields and tractor/repulsor beams. It is NOT a statement of fact that he is saturated in them.
“Stalwart’s ability to manipulate his mass and weight doesn’t need to have anything to do with his invulnerability at all,”
Yes it does. Both according to the Cast page and even according to what Voyager has been saying.
“and by the tech scans, it actually isn’t dependent on it.”
What tech scans? No one did tech scans on him. They did tech scans on MAXIMA. Look at the page. Altus has no doodads. And the only doodads being used are by Frix and Gellen. On Maxima. Not Stalwart.
“So, I’m of the opinion that he’s probably one of the guys Math broke even against,”
Is there anything that even says outright that Math broke even against anyone? You’re making as big an assumption as I was (actually a bigger one since Maxima never uses the idea of ‘breaking even’ or ‘tying’ to describe Math’s sparring sessions) by saying ‘one of the ones who he broke even with.’
“Trying to punch someone weighing twenty tons is just a good way to break your hand,”
Okay now it’s like you ignored most of the other posts. But I’m assuming it migth be because this thread is getting really long. I said that he would NOT attack by hitting with force, but rather using precision, skill and leverage, and using Stalwart’s own strength against him, much like he was able to do with Anvil (until he resorted to tickling to get free of her hold on him).
“trying to deflect an arm weighing a thousand pounds or something a good way to break your own arm.”
1) It’s not like Stalwart’s arm is on the ground and Math has to lift it. Stalwart’s arm would be moving forward, and he just has to redirect it, which is easier when an object is already in motion, as long as he isn’t just trying to stop it outright. Math is a smart enough fighter to know how to deflect or use an opponent’s superior strength against them, and he is likely a lot faster than Stalwart.
One thing I wanted to add:
There’s one weak spot that’s even weaker than the others: The eye. And that I can plausibly see being vulnerable to Math.
But I doubt Math would target Stalwart’s eye in a friendly sparring match.
Sydney licked an eye, and Math will refuse to be outdone by Sydney. :)
And yes I’m just joking and being funny here.
Superman can take a minigun shell to the eye. Invulnerability doesn’t really care about whether the tissue it is protecting is soft or not.
Since Stalwart can weigh as much as a tank and is invulnerable on top of that, getting poked in the eye would be about the same as you thumbing a golf ball sized ball bearing or something made out of osmium.
Stalwart’s eye will be much, much tougher than any real eye, and still tougher than most real materials, but it will not be as strong as the rest of him.
Compare Vehemence getting his eye (but nothing else) damaged by Peggy’s anti-materiel rifle at a point where he was already stronger than Stalwart.
Then consider that Math, for all his claims of “just human”, hits superhumanly hard.
Superman literally DOES have a force field that’s permeating every cell of his body. it’s called the Kryptonian Biomatrix. Stalwart DOES NOT HAVE A FORCE FIELD OR ARMOR like Superman or Maxima do.
And comparing to Vehemence is not a fair comparison at all. Vehemence was a LOT more powerful than Stalwart even before Peggy had shot him in his eye the first time. He was already approaching Maxima levels of power or, as Dabbler said “If this had been an orgy instead of a fight, I could have taken the entire team with two hands behind my back.”
“And while Hiro wasn’t precisely targeting, he was making up for it by repeated kicking and grinding.”
It’s different than a focused attack on a specific point.
Ever watch Star Trek – First Contact? Remember how all the Federation ships were trying to stop the Borg cube and failing, even though they were doing damage to it? Then Picard take command and they focus ALL their attacks on one SPECIFIC, focused spot…. and the Borg cube blows up.
That’s the difference between a scattered attack in a general area and a focused pinpoint strike to a weak spot.
Your claims that Stalwart is too tough for even his weak points to be vulnerable is… doubtful. First of all, Math has beaten Concretia, who can create simulacrum bodies made out of stone and concrete. What makes that even more interesting is that smashing concrete isn’t even THAT impressive. I was doing that as a teenager training in TKD; EVERYONE with a black belt was expected to be capable of breaking boards made from 1/2″ pine, as well as 1″ concrete bricks. Both the boards and the bricks were made of stuff that is most definitely MUCH tougher than our own soft flesh… and yet we would do it. Sometimes we would do it during tests to prove we were ready to be promoted to the next rank; sometimes we would do it because people were pledging to donate money to charities (such as the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, or the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation) for each board or brick we broke.
Also, as I mentioned yesterday in another comment, I’ve been hit in “pressure points,” and it HURT. I’m not a fragile person. I can take it as well as dish it out… but when you get hit JUUUUST right, you realize that you’ve got your weak spots just like every other machine ever built, organic or inorganic. Hell, the spot on Stalwart’s knee that Math just hurt looks like it might be analogous to the spot on my elbow where I took a shin kick and suddenly I was done using that arm for a day.
So no. Just because Math’s body is softer and squishier than Stalwart’s doesn’t mean Math can’t do damage to Stalwart.
“I’ve been hit in “pressure points,” and it HURT. I’m not a fragile person.”
But presumable you’re a normal human, whose body parts are of regular human size and have regular material properties. This is not the case for Stalwart. His are a thousand times tougher than that.
If someone with a thousandth of the strength of a human hit you, imagine for example a mouse tackled you in the weak spot, would you be in pain?
“His are a thousand times tougher than that.”
Where did you get ‘a thousand times tougher than that’ from?
“If someone with a thousandth of the strength of a human hit you, imagine for example a mouse tackled you in the weak spot, would you be in pain?”
Same question as above – why are you making the assumption that the multiplier for Stalwart is ‘a thousand?’ You said something akin to this in one response to me as well, with the comparison of Math hitting Stalwart being like a fly landing on me. I like the character of Stalwart. But I think you’re assuming a far greater power level than he actually has been shown as possessing.
Btw, when I was six, I accidentally hit my cousin, who was 20 at the time, in the groin with a wiffle bat because I was both a horrible and klutzy child. It hurt. From a six year old girl using a hollow plastic wiffleball bat. He occasionally reminds me of it. I also once broke his guitar accidentally by running into it when I was running around like a little maniac, which he also reminds me about. That last part has nothing to do with the thread but I felt like adding it because for a little girl I was apparently remarkably destructive.
“Where did you get ‘a thousand times tougher than that’ from?”
From him being a thousand times heavier than a normal human. He can increase his mass to that of a space shuttle, which is about 1000x of a human. This would imply he’s equally tough, because there’s a thousand times as much of him any force or damage will be spreach out over. And if that’s not enough for you, we know he can also move and fight without injuring himself while that heavy.
Note that this is a lower bound, it’s quite possible that he’s even tougher (and stronger) than that.
I’ve been assuming we already were on the same page here, since we’ve previously talked about the space shuttle thing, but if we weren’t, that helps explain our disagreement. If you thought Stalwart was weaker that that, it made a lot of sense for you to think Math can hurt him. If he’s only 100x stronger/tougher, then yeah, Math beats up his nerve points.
“From him being a thousand times heavier than a normal human.”
That is extremely circular reasoning. Weighing more than 1000 times that of a human is not the same as being 1000 times tougher than a human being.
“This would imply he’s equally tough,”
It does not. For example – if you have 1000 times the weight of a human being in toilet paper, that does not mean the toilet paper is somehow 1000 times tougher than a human being. We already know that Math is capable of doing things like punching through concrete – I see no reason to assume that he can not hit Stalwart with preciseness at a particular focal weak point to hurt Stalwart.
” If you thought Stalwart was weaker that that, it made a lot of sense for you to think Math can hurt him. ”
Correct – I do think Stalwart is weaker than that, at least where his ‘weak points’ are concerned. I think he’s probably that tough where his muscles and bones are concerned though. Just not where stuff like soft tissue is concerned. At the very least, I think Math would be able to hit his soft tissue into his nerve clusters, if not hitting the nerve cluster weak point directly, or a ‘floating bone’ like the hyoid bone which is only attached by ligaments instead of muscle, and is only attached to the thyroid cartilage, which itself NEEDS to be flexible in order to work on the human body as intended (for the good of the human being himself).
Sort of like how a space shuttle is not entirely composed of titanium (it’s also made of aluminum and ceramics) – you might break your fist against titanium, but ceramics are not meant to be hard – they’re meant to be used for heat dissipation – and you can break ceramics a lot easier than you can break titanium.
In the same way that a space shuttle is not entirely compsed of its hardest part – titanium, I do not think of Stalwart as being entirely composed of HIS hardest parts (bone and muscle and no channelling Dabbler jokes please :) ).
“That is extremely circular reasoning”
That’s not what circular reasoning means.
“It does not. For example – if you have 1000 times the weight of a human being in toilet paper, that does not mean the toilet paper is somehow 1000 times tougher than a human being.”
It does, and I explained why, which I’d like you to adress. And no, toilet paper is not an adequate comparison, because toilet paper doesn’t move and therefore doesn’t withstand higher forces when it masses more. (But if you applied Stalwart’s power on toilet paper, I would expect it would be a thousand times as strong as normal toilet paper.)
“Correct – I do think Stalwart is weaker than that, at least where his ‘weak points’ are concerned.”
Why would his “weak points” be less affected by his power? They’d be equally reinforced, equally more massive, and this stronger to an equal factor.
“only attached by ligaments instead of muscle, and is only attached to the thyroid cartilage, which itself NEEDS to be flexible ”
Ligaments are there to hold a body together against the forces acting on it. The need to be tough enough to support Stalwart’s strength. And flexible doesn’t mean weak, especially not if Stalwart has superstrength to move around.
“I do not think of Stalwart as being entirely composed of HIS hardest parts”
Neither do I, and I’ve clarified that multiple times already.
I don’t mean his soft tissues are as tough as his bones. But tougher than regular soft tissues by a similar factor as his bones are tougher than regular bones.
As I wrote before: “His bones are 1000x stronger than normal human bones. His testicles are 1000x stronger than normal testicles. His throat is 1000x stronger than a normal throat etc.”
I’m thinking you were breaking cement and not concrete. Trying to break concrete would probably have broken your hand. Very different shatter profiles.
Nope they can also break cement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZRuOSadsfE
The question probably is more “Can Math muster the amount of force necessary to compress said nerve clusters into a reaction” and less wondering if Stalwart has nerve clusters.
After all a nerve punch only works if you have the strength to pinch the nerve in the first place. If Stalwart’s durable nature is geared more towards an inability to deform the skin and muscles to cause the desired effect and less the ability to ignore that result- Any battle between Math and Stalwart might be more an aggravating tie than a win or loss.
“After all a nerve punch only works if you have the strength to pinch the nerve in the first place.”
A nerve sends and receives messages between the brain and the body. This is done so that you can feel sensations. Nerve clusters aren’t something hidden deep within your body. If they were, you would not be able to feel any sensations whatsoever. Unless you are saying that Stalwart has no ability to have the sensation of touch or something? Which seems like a big assumption to make.
Think of it, in fiction, like… the Vulcan neck pinch. That doesn’t require a lot of force – but Spock has been able to incapacitate even people stronger and more durable than him. Such as when he nerve pinched Wolverine in the X-Men/Star Trek crossover.
Not to mention, Stalwart does bend his knees when moving. He’s superhuman, but he’s still a human. Which means that hitting him in the space behind the knee would be a natural weak spot anyway for humans who don’t have some sort of armor. Stalwart bends his knee on his own, and a strike behind the knee will just make his already starting motion keep bending, which would then throw him off balance.
Nerves transmit signals from the sensory neurons to the brain, like touch or pain. Strikes to the nerve itself transmitting pain is force effecting a change from the regular operation, so a super tough nerve will be more resistant to it, without impacting its regular operation, the transmission of touch.
“Stalwart bends his knee on his own, and a strike behind the knee will just make his already starting motion keep bending, which would then throw him off balance.”
Only if the strike has enough force behind it. If not, Stalwart’s motion will just shift by a tiny amount and nothing will happen. I’m not gonna be thrown off balance by a fly landing on the back of my knee, and Stalwart is not gonna be thrown off balance by a normal kick, and while Math’ kicks are stronger than human, they’re not that much stronger – Altus, whose strength, toughness and inertia are biological, isn’t getting ragdolled.
“. I’m not gonna be thrown off balance by a fly landing on the back of my knee,”
Math’s kicks are not the equivalent to a fly landing on the back of Stalwart’s knee. Not sure how you have determined that.
“, and Stalwart is not gonna be thrown off balance by a normal kick”
Math’s strikes are not normal strikes.
“, they’re not that much stronger ”
Please show me where you’ve gotten this assumption from. Everything said about Math so far in the comic has been that he is one of, if not the single greatest martial artist in the world. He’s basically the Grrlpower version of Gamora from Guardians of the Galaxy (in the comics, not the movie) or Karnak (from Inhumans) or Karate Kid (from DC).
“Math’s kicks are not the equivalent to a fly landing on the back of Stalwart’s knee.”
That was an example, to illustrate the principle to you.
“Math’s strikes are not normal strikes.”
I literally said that right after the part you quoted. Please stop taking sentence fragments out of context.
“Please show me where you’ve gotten this assumption from.”
I explained that conclusion in the part of the sentence you cut off from your quote: ” – Altus, whose strength, toughness and inertia are biological, isn’t getting ragdolled”. Can you just finish reading a sentence before you respond to it?
“That was an example, to illustrate the principle to you.”
Understood, but it was a pretty bad and inaccurate example.
“I literally said that right after the part you quoted. Please stop taking sentence fragments out of context.”
I tend to write my answers AS I’m reading them. I might have forgotten to erase that part.
“I explained that conclusion in the part of the sentence you cut off from your quote: ” – Altus, whose strength, toughness and inertia are biological, isn’t getting ragdolled”. Can you just finish reading a sentence before you respond to it?”
I wasn’t talking about being ragdolled, which is why I wasn’t quoting that part of your sentence. I was talking about Math’s kicks being strong enough (which came in your sentence before this quote), combined with his skill and focus on specific weak points, to hurt Stalwart, or at least get him off balance.
“Understood, but it was a pretty bad and inaccurate example.”
So do you think a fly landing on the back of your knee could make you stumble, or how else does the example fail to demonstrate the principle?
“I tend to write my answers AS I’m reading them.”
I don’t think that’s a good idea, if you’re not reading the full sentence before responding to parts of it, stuff like this is bound to happen.
“I wasn’t talking about being ragdolled, which is why I wasn’t quoting that part of your sentence. I was talking about Math’s kicks being strong enough (which came in your sentence before this quote)”
The latter part was the explanation for the former claim. I was judging Math’s strength from his impact on
Altus. What the hell is wrong with your reading comprehension?
“So do you think a fly landing on the back of your knee could make you stumble, or how else does the example fail to demonstrate the principle?”
Now you’re doing a strawman argument. Because:
1) I did NOT say a fly landing on the back of your knee can make you stumble; and
2) Math’s strikes compared to the back of Stalwart’s knee is NOT like a fly landing on a normal person’s knee. I still have no idea how you’ve gotten that comparison, aside from it being taken out of thin air.
“The latter part was the explanation for the former claim. I was judging Math’s strength from his impact on Altus. What the hell is wrong with your reading comprehension?”
My reading comprehension is rather good actually. Perhaps you could argue without devolving into insults? You are judging Altus’s strength from his impact on Altus, yet you’ve seen Math do things which are even better than what he did to Altus. Where does ‘ragdolling’ come into it? Who got ragdolled?
“I did NOT say a fly landing on the back of your knee can make you stumble”
Then you understand the principle that a strike on a weakpoint can have too little force to achieve anything even on the weakpoint? Because that example was supposed to achieve no more and no less.
If you want an example of a similar magnitude as normal kick vs Stalwart, on the last page I offered a martial arts mouse attack on a normal person.
“Math’s strikes compared to the back of Stalwart’s knee is NOT like a fly landing on a normal person’s knee. I still have no idea how you’ve gotten that comparison, aside from it being taken out of thin air.”
1. I haven’t even made that comparison. I compared the fly with a normal kick at Stalwart.
2. It’s a comparison in principle, not in magnitude.
“My reading comprehension is rather good actually.”
Use it then. Because it’s rather frustrating how you keep misunderstanding things.
“yet you’ve seen Math do things which are even better than what he did to Altus.”
Than what he failed to do to Altus. This means we have a contradiction, and the weaker one is both more recent and fits better with Math’ portrayal as just a really good martial artist, hence I tend towards giving it precedence.
“Where does ‘ragdolling’ come into it? Who got ragdolled?”
Altus didn’t, which puts an upper limit on the force of Math’s punches.
““Math’s strikes compared to the back of Stalwart’s knee is NOT like a fly landing on a normal person’s knee. I still have no idea how you’ve gotten that comparison, aside from it being taken out of thin air.”
1. I haven’t even made that comparison. I compared the fly with a normal kick at Stalwart.”
Read what you just wrote here compared to what I just said. I think you might be the one having trouble with reading comprehension. Also you’re being incredibly rude.
“Use it then. Because it’s rather frustrating how you keep misunderstanding things.”
So very rude :/
“Than what he failed to do to Altus.”
He JUST Hit Altus’s nerve cluster and hurt him. WHat are you even TALKING about now? How is this is upper limit according to you?
“Altus didn’t, which puts an upper limit on the force of Math’s punches.”
What does ‘ragdolling’ have to do with any of this,m and how are you determining that this is the upper limit on the force of Math’s punches? You KEEP making unfounded assumptions.
Feel free to again insult my reading comprehension even when your posts are no longer even making sense. This thread is getting very annoying and repetitive (and insulting).
“Read what you just wrote here compared to what I just said.”
I said “normal kick”. You said “Math’s kick”.
“WHat are you even TALKING about now? How is this is upper limit according to you?”
I’m talking about Math delivering a hook on Altus’ chin (on the last page), which barely moved him (and didn’t ragdoll him, unlike Concretia*, and unlike what I expect to be necessary to hurt Stalwart).
And this is upper limit because (1) Math notes Altus’ toughness and nothing that suggests he could just punch harder, he indeed (2) immediately changes his approach to targeting a weak point, as opposed to trying again while hitting harder. This was Math unexpectedly hitting his limit.
Also (3) the author blurb on that explains why Math didn’t break his hand, and there’s nothing about “also he didn’t use his full strength” here.
*I’m starting to have some suspicion that Math’s performance against Concretia might have been in part due to DaveB considering his martial arts attack particularly effective against concrete (the whole “martial artist breaking bricks” thing.)
That was a boneheaded thing to do. It really cracks me up.
Altus is rather unnerved by Math’s skill. He doesn’t get a break.
I think we are straining the topic here.
*shakes fist at all of you!!!!!*
Stop that right this instant you micreants! You reprobates! You scallywags!
I take exception to that. I am not a Scallywag, I am clearly too much of a scuttlebutt for that!
Based entirely on Math’s face. That hurt him as much as Altus. He just has mobility still.
That’s not Math’s “oh no, RECORD PAIN” face. That’s him hamming it up Bruce Lee-style. He’s having fun still.
I’m pretty sure he’s just doing something like what Bruce Lee does because Math is a goofball who likes to show off after a successful strike.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cffdaa4b16daefb7fcf4a475ecbbcf62-c
I can tell you from experience, that sort of hit to the knee gets you four months off work on Worker’s Comp, six months of physiotherapy, two surgeries, a pain that’s always just enough to notice but not enough to be debilitating and a permanent limp.
Cracked a big sliver of bone off the back of the kneecap that went unnoticed on the x-rays and all the physio broke it loose to shred the inside of the knee destroying all the cartilege and almost cutting through some tendons.
On the bright side though, it did come with a small cheque for ‘permanent disability’ (that I used to pay some of the taxes for that year) and I always know when it’s going to rain.
Your job should hire Doc Chevy and get one of Frix’s medical healing thingamabobbers :)
Panel 4, I can’t tell if Math is hitting from the front or back.
From the back, since if he punched from the front he would be dealing with a hard kneecap, instead of soft tissue, which would make it a lot harder to hit the nerve in someone with as much ‘fortitude’ as Altus.
From the front
If it was the back, Altus is holding the wrong leg
He isnt holding the wrong leg. He’s holding the right leg, which was the leg that Math hit. Altus is turned around when he’s holding his leg.
Btw when I say he’s holding the right leg, I literally mean the right leg (which is the correct leg to hold) as opposed to the left leg (which would be the wrong/incorrect leg to hold).
Or possibly the side where there’s another gap between the joint and ligaments?
I only took a year of anatomy (mainly to get the biology major in order to sit for the Patent Bar) so I’m a bit iffy on that.
He is hitting the knee on the side. But did he do it by spinning around to Altus backside, or by simply ducking under his punch and doing some kind of elbow strike? Just can’t picture the movement either way.
If he were behind Altus, we wouldn’t be able to see his face in the frame where he strikes (he’s clearly in front of Altus – the following frames make it clear he was struck on his right leg). Based on the speedlines and the prior frame, I’d say he dodged to the left, then pivoted while ducking (the angle of attack is diagonally downward), striking Altus’ knee on the side. I assume his dodge involved a step forward with his right leg and then he pivoted on that. In the last frame, I’d say Altus has turned around while holding his hurt leg, hence why Math is now behind him (he’s also hopped some distance away).
Yeah, I wondered about the scars on Math. I didn’t think that he had that many before. With the number of them and their pattern, specifically most of them looking like they are 2,3, or 4 nail claw marks, I figured several of those were sexy time claw marks. Math has slept with at least 3 of the team so far, which seemed to escalate quickly since Jabberwocky got added, thus him racking up scars somewhat fast.
Math’s scars seem to be almost all at right angles to major muscles. It makes it look like a surgeon had to sew them back together from some major tears. I’m all for the concept of him earning them with a “partner”, but almost all of them at right angles to his muscles? I’m skeptical, but, maybe?
I’m guessing one of the other two is Cora (since there was a threesome between Cora, Hiro, and Math, of which they will never speak), and Jabberwokky’s the obvious one.
Who’s the third? Let me know, thanks.
Don’t remember that threesome…
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-748-sharing-is-scaring/
Detla wasn’t entirely opposed to the idea.
I guess Jabberwokky would find it more fun to call them scars but it seems more like healing scratches. I’ve seen and had scratches that were visible for longer than an actual cut would be but they still aren’t the same as a full on scar.
To quote the Courier of New Vegas: “Kneecaps are a privilege!”
Ap, extra crit damage,explosive .44 right in the patella.
Alien or not, joints are joints and nerves are nerves.
“And if you’re wondering why Cora’s maliens aren’t ganging up on Math…”
Intergalactic Martial Arts Code 447 stipulates that ganging up on a single opponent is only allowed *after* said opponent has proven that they are better than any of you as individuals.
• Chi No Li, The Great Teacher
And the maliens apparently do not subscribe to the Evil Overlord’s List Rule #75
75. I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.
Or as my Sensei told us as nauseum, “Superior power means nothing against Superior skill”
I’m always thinkin’ ’bout it.
Don’t know what I’d do without it.
I punched, I really punched, your pancreas!
Math struck right with the funnybone! that is definitely gonna be felt in the morning for them both, methinks.
Or maybe Altus’s gazorpozorp is located in the knee.
> I think I’ve been overdoing the speedlines, so I pulled back on this page. Arguably too much? I’ll find the formula just as this sequence is coming to a close, and then forget everything I’ve learned by the time the next action scene rolls around.
.
.
That is pretty much mandatory. If you are gonna learn a new skill, you need to make sure you have time to forget it before you try again.
Guys why are we only second place in the web comic voting? We need more votes.
PICCOLO: You’re not really familiar with our anatomy, are you?
FRIEZA: It doesn’t matter! I’ll hit your glubok somewhere.
Honestly Dave these somewhat more minimal speed-lines looks rather clean and clear to me. If you dial it up in the next scene I hope you do so lightly cause it’s rather good looking right now.
Did Altus attempt a sneaky-sneak attack?
I literally said outloud “Wooooooooooo….. why didnt he put the little head shaking lines around math’s head” and then i leaned in and squinted and discovered that you Had done exactly that and i Howled with laughter
Yeah, way better on the sppedlines front, but there is still abundant space for improvement. You should read much more comics for reference…
I totally get what Altus is saying. That’s me when I wake up with a cramp in my calf. (This may be the same thing that Americans mean when they say “charley horse.” Or not. I’m foreign, what do I know?)
I have missed the margin strip, or chibi, or whatever you call it.