Grrl Power #1279 – Punchy McPunchface
Math is one of those guys who punches iron bowl full of hot gravel every morning. The skin on his knuckles and the back of his fingers is like the sole of an elephant’s foot. He also does a bunch of other crazy Shaolin monk training, like sitting at a table without using a chair, just by flexing his foot just right, or climbing a rope using just one hand, or whatever. You’ve all seen Kung Fu theater on Sunday afternoons, haven’t you? This assumes you grew up in a world where there were maybe 7 TV channels. One of your local stations that didn’t get a license for whatever seasonal sports game and wasn’t PBS would either be running syndicated sitcoms or some Kung Fu movie.
I mention that because Math is used to hitting things like Altus. It still hurt a little, but at least he didn’t blow out his wrist or dislocate a finger.
The new vote incentive is up!
It’s Escorpia/Sciona, fresh off her successful… extortion campaign? I’m not sure if extortion is the right word. Addicting someone to superpowered narcotics then withholding to compel directed behavior? Kind of a ransom/extortion/generally being a butt kind of thing. There’s probably a better word for that. Anyway, check out Sciona’s business casual getup at TWC, and Patreon has a bunch of… let’s call them increasingly casual variants.
Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. Feel free to contribute as much as you like.
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Ankle angle is off in panel 2. The foot dont bend that way, even for a martial artist.
The motion blur is good though
Trying to twist your foot like that would present the edge of the foot, which is actually a type of kick taught in at least some martial arts.
@tor Are you sure? I had to stare at it for a bit but I think the anatomy is right- imagine if you stood (straight up) on one foot, picked up the other foot, and then crossed it behind the knee of the foot that was still on the ground (so your legs resemble a figure-4). I think that’s kinda the stance Math has, except he’s leaning over so his torso is down and the bent-leg is up in the air behind him.
Also as @Gawain mentioned, some martial arts teach you to kick with the edge of your foot, but its usually the OUTSIDE edge.
So I wouldn’t think you could put a lot of power into a move like that; from Math’s original position, something like a donkey-kick would have seemed a lot more straightforward and stronger. Alternatively, I originally thought maybe the sequence was Math hooking his leg around Frix’s arm and it was more of a grab-and-throw, except the action and sound effects don’t seem to indicate that quite exactly either.
But I guess (1) I don’t have super-powers, and (2) Math looks like he uses the momentum from his raised leg to pull him into a jump-spin to attack Altus there.
Again, I wouldn’t think a flying-punch would be the best solution, however it does make for an impressive visual combo. Maybe Math is holding back from the ACTUAL bone-breaking martial arts moves and he’ll ramp up to that in a minute once he’s calibrated his attacks so he doesn’t accidentally kill someone.
“This alien species has bones that are made of glass, and explode internally at the slightest fracture, inducing near-certain limb-loss from massive trauma and bleeding? How the hell was I supposed to know that?!?!? Wait, actually, how did a species like that ever survive long enough to evolve sentience???
…. … …
Oh, once the necrotic limb falls off they can regrow a new one?!?!? So what’s the problem then?!?
….
Still incredibly painful?!? Yeah I guess I can see- What do you mean ‘why am I shouting’?!? I can barely hear myself over this guy screaming-… ok you know what I’m gonna stop asking questions now.”
as a martial artist, the position of his foot looks like it would put crazy torque on the knee- technically physically possible but a great way to get joint damage and strictly worse than a kick with the heel from that position, which would to my eye essentially involve rotating the ankle 60ish degrees. seems possible to me that that was the kind of kick trying to be conveyed and a simple to make visual mistake occurred when looking at the reference? not a huge deal whatever the case
Yeah, after posting my original comment I thought about it a bit more, and I realize that Math’s attack could be more like a stomp, where he’s hitting Frix’s face with his heal instead of the edge of his foot.
Whatever the actual intent, I’m not criticizing the choice of tactics- I assume that superhero fights in this comic run 90% on rule-of-cool, and 10% on fanservice. 15% if Max is involved ( )( )
50/50 if it’s Dabbler.
My thought for the kick against Frix was that the bend was due to it being a hook kick, which is a good way to hit someone with a fake-out and can generate a surprising amount of force. He wanted a lot of his leg in contact with Frix for pushing him away, but also wanted to get in a good hit, hence a quick bend of the leg. Hitting with the inner edge of the foot is a bit different for a strike (but common for a sweep) but should still work fine, just like a knife-hand works with either side of the hand.
Also, we should all keep in mind that Math is SPARRING; he’s not really trying to beat an enemy into submission, or kill someone, which I have no doubt he’s entirely capable of. If he were involved in a fight for his life and not a contest for fun, he might choose different tactics.
He’s in “Dog peeing on fire hydrant” pose, but instead of his knee being out, it’s in line with his hip. Certainly a very awkward kick, and not something you could put a lot of force into, but it is at least theoretically possible.
That ankle/leg angle doesn’t look quite right. Especially if Math is kicking Frix with his heal.
“Of course, I smash a dozen cinder blocks every morning before breakfast…”
“Iron bowl full of hot gravel, part of a complete breakfast!”
Now this is a popcorn worthy scenario. Go Math go.
“Three steps ahead, you must think.
To start.”
Anytime I see someone say “a joint doesn’t bend that way” tells me they’ve never watched a slow-mo shot of a pitcher throwing a fast ball. And punching cinder blocks… ouch… try terracotta pots, I have. Once we were able to bust them, Sensei would fill them with sand.
… Your sensei sounds like a bit of a jerk.
How many busted knuckles were there?
He was HARD core. I never did break anything, and we had to wrap our hands first so we didn’t cut ourselves. It’s no different than breaking boards, just harder. The sand was to simulate the mass of a body, requiring more power to break it.
Think of it this way; if I could break a 6 inch terracotta pot with one swing, would you want me to hit you? If you missed it hit you (sometimes he’d start it swinging first), if you didn’t break it, it would swing back and hit you so you had to be ready to duck.
Punches were easier than kicking them, it was hard to get your kick moving fast enough. Breaking a board was easier because it wasn’t mobile, while the pots were hanging by twine. Plus a board just needs power, while the pots took both speed and power to break one. Keep in mind, I was 15 when I stated, that was like 48 years and several serious bodily injuries ago.
I think he is referring to the fact that Math’s foot is perpendicular to the bend of his knee… i.e. his foot is facing 90 degrees to the side. Your ankle isn’t an owl’s neck…
I’d agree but I have seen a few double-jointed people do some freaky stuff, the YouTuber Markiplier can turn his hips to the point it looks like he’s walking backwards while facing forward, not to mention all the circus types folding themselves into small boxes and wrapping themselves around their lower body and walking like that! Hell I was doing a standing split before I was 17. It could be off a bit, but perspectives are hard while showing motion in a still.
Could Math be double-jointed in the ankle? Is that even a thing? (seriously asking, I have no idea)
He punches Big Red whose name I don’t know with his left hand, but his right hand gets all ouched-up? Or am I misinterpreting the angles on his blow-on-it-to-make-it-better in the last panel? There’s no visible thumb, so it’s just down to relative finger sizes, but the wrist angle suggests the right hand.
The motion lines are working great, BTW. Anyone who wants to check another magnificently rendered martial arts fight should look at John Cassaday’s work in Planetary #16. No POW! effects, no motion swooshes – he does it all with the flow of their clothes, and it is beautiful.
https://artbyarion.blogspot.com/2015/08/planetary-16-warren-ellis-john-cassaday.html
Based on what we can see of that hand, it does appear to be his left hand. The digit on the far left is smaller than the rest, like my left hand. So, I am thinking that other Dave got his left hand right.
I think it’s his left hand, the right hand probably would have the thumb showing
” sole of an elephant’s foot|”
That one is surprisingly soft, and full of nerves. The experience of getting trampled by an elephant is wildly different from getting trampled by a zebra. (yes, those white motion lines made me think of a zebra)
Dave should have gone with “tuff as a rhino’s butt!”
Tough as a wombat’s butt…they use them to block their burrows from predators, now THAT’S tough !!!
And also use their butt to smash the brains out of any persistent pests
Twerking Wombat Style!
Nah, see, he meant “the” elephant’s foot, as in the pile of radioactive slag in the basement of what’s left of Reactor 4.
In my time we had only 4 channels, including PBS. It didn’t become 5 until the Fox Network came along.
There were independent stations…which Fox bought out when they started…I miss them.
Only if you lived near a big city. In the mountains where I grew up we barely got Knoxville’s 3 and the KET station 60 miles away.
Waaaaay back . ^_^ Southern California has channels = 2 [CBS], 4 [NBC], 5 = KTLA, local station, 7 [ABC], 9 = KCAL, local, 11 = KTTV, local – but also Fox, 13 = KCOP, also local. The PBS stations were on the UHF separate channel selector.
But all of it was caught by ‘rabbit ears’ [antennae]
Channel 9 had different call letters before it became KCAL, and was part of the old RKO network. I forget what those call letters were all these years later. Likewise, Channel 11 was part of Metromedia before Fox bought Metromedia to begin building their TV network. Metromedia also owned KMPC 710 AM IIRC, home to California Angels broadcasts and the great Gary Owens. Channels 5 and 13 were the only true independents.
For thirty years (or was it forty?), we only had two channels, both government-run
In the area I grew up we have the TV stations from Chicago, Ill. by time I was 10 we had CBS, NBC, ABC, and PBS. then the UHF channels started up, that was Fox, what became UPN, and a couple of local stations that didn’t do well.
Math totally broke his leg during that first spin kick.
My advice for punching someone with flesh like iron is, don’t. If there are two of them, maybe see if you can arrange for one of them to punch the other?
Dave should have gone with “tuff as a rhino’s butt!”
This reminds me of the time during the initial bank robbery when Sydney accidentally punched Maxima and commented that her face is hard. Mind you, Math hit Big Red deliberately and with skill, which should change things a little bit.
Love the Parappa reference in the zinger. That song/intro from Master Onion still pops into my head out of nowhere at least a few times a year.
Cinder blocks don’t fight back
Dead men don’t wear plaid.
Huh, so apparently Altus is tougher than Concretia (or at least in the ballpark).
Considering Math sent her flying – probably.
Although Math did use two hands for her as a push sort of hit towards her center of mass with both of his feet firmly planted on the ground, and one fist for Altus to his face while in mid-air.
There’s a reason boxers wrap, tape, and glove their hands. The bones and tendons of the hand break relatively easily. It’s called “Boxer’s Fracture” for a reason. And that’s just hitting regular human skulls.
And there you have the reason why old school bare knuckle fights looked very different and arguably more boring than modern boxing. They were more conscious about getting a hit that hurts the opponent more than them.
Modern bare knuckle fights apparently have a different rule set. Because again, they look very different from old school bar knuckle fights. The old fighters were not worse or anything, but a ruleset can make a world of difference.
Yep. Bare knuckle boxing used the hammer fist and back fist to the head a lot more. Medical records show gloved fights have more contusions, fewer concussions. Every fist fight I have Bern in – not very many – left my hands feeling like they were slammed in a door. And that’s without a pro boxer’s power
Now we find out that this species has their brain located deep inside their armoured chest and their head is mostly solid bone to protect the sensory systems and muscle to let their powerful jaws crush the molluscs and nuts that form their diet.
Noted for my Traveller game.
Always good to see Sci (probably the only one who will admit that), just not a fan of that particular angle
I thought Math was more a throat punch kind of guy. For most people, punching jaws is a good way to injure your hand. Even given that he does iron had training, I’d expect his skill to let him strike soft, vulnerable targets. punch to the face is showy, but generally not the most effective.
A hit to the chin basically turns the head into a lever to shake the brain in its cage, which can give the target a concussion, disrupting their balance or even causing them to go unconscious. That’s dangerous IRL, but in a cinematic comic like this is typically a safe stun/knock-out technique. But Math telegraphed his attack a bit too much, so Altus had time to prepare for the hit and prevent his head from moving. Or Altus is just that difficult to budge (or, again, some comic book physics – if a hit isn’t strong enough to physically injure the target with the initial blunt trauma, it’s not strong enough to do anything else).
The speed bag move – forehand, backfist – is from the bare knuckle days. Knock the head one way. Hit it the other, locking out the neck. Then finish with a cross with the other hand. Fight ender
He is but Math isn’t in that kind of fight this is a sparring match, strikes to the throat in the manner than Math would prefer are often fatal.
If you have horns, even if they are vestigial, they need something to anchor them. It’s a fair bet that Altus and Frix both have pretty solid skulls.
Oh no, Altus looks a bit miffed.
Only seven channels?? We had three, and one of those was uhf, which required an additional small antenna and was still hard to pick up from thirty miles away. :-) (Luckily we did get Fireball XL-5 though! :-))
I lived in LA metro as a kid, so we had something running on all 12 VHF channels (2-13). I still watched the Kung-Fu Theatre station. Because even there, there was nothing better on.
Jaw like a cinder block, eh? I’ll bet Math has broken those before…
Thank you for the PaRappa the Rapper refference!
“MEDIC!”
“That was the medic!”
—
My area of central Indiana had 5; the Big 3 affiliates, the local station that had all the cool syndicated cartoons and “Sammy Terry” horror hosting, and PBS. Our PBS ran “Masterpiece theater” and “Monty Python” -It really should have been running “Dr Who” but didn’t for some reason…
The only way to stop an unstoppable force is with an unmovable one. :P
I’m assuming that since Math has beaten Stalwart in spars, that he can probably beat Altus as well. He’ll just need to use leverage instead of outright force and speed. Sort of like how he beat Anvil during Sydney’s interview in the comic.
But with less tickling.
Does it say Math has actually beaten Stalwart, and in what way? In https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-134-sobriquet-quest/ it just says no-one except Max (and Dabbler with magic) has ever beaten him, which is not the same.
I’d expect a fight between Math and Stalwart to be a stalemate, as Stalwart can’t hit Math, but Math can’t hurt Stalwart. This could be considered a win by points for Math, especially in a spar where it’s about learning how to fight, not hurting the other guy, but it’s not the same as actually beating up Stalwart.
Maxima says “For what it’s worth, I’m the only one who’s beaten Math in a straight fight. Not even Dabbler’s done it without using magic.”
This very obviously implies that Math has won in every sparring match except against Maxima (unless you include magic). Maxima would have said a few people stalemated him if what you’re suggesting was a case.
Math does not have to hurt Stalwart in order to beat him. He beat Anvil without hurting her as well, and there’s no way for him to technically hurt her also, because of her kinetic absorption powers.
Eh,no.
It implies that Math has not LOST a fight to anyone but Maxima.
It does not imply that he WON them all. Those are very different things. Fighting to a draw is not a win for either side.
Indeed, Dabbler fought to a draw against Maxima. Since she couldn’t beat Math without magic, it implies she fought him to a draw without it.
No, a draw/stalemate is obviously a third option to Math either winning or losing. Maxima doesn’t need to explicitly add this to make her point, especially if the draws were just the opponent surviving Math’s attacks by raw durability/defeats by points.
Math was able to throw Anvil – he couldn’t do that to Stalwart, who he wouldn’t even be able to move. Like, would you consider https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-1171-accidental-super-soldier-potion/ a loss for Stalwart?
However, against Altus some judo or BJJ could work.
Seneca was not using leverage whatsoever. She was trying brute strength so obviously she couldnt do anything. And not sure why Math couldnt theow Stalwart if hecwas using Stalwarts own momentum against him.
Not like it hasnt happened in other comics btw – Batman vs Superman in Superman TAS. Cassandra Caun vs Superboy in the comics. Daredevil vs Tombstone in the comics, etc
I hate using a phone keyboard. So many typos.
For the same reason he couldn’t throw a space shuttle by using its own momentum against it.
Leverage isn’t magic – body mechanics put hard limits on how much of a force multiplier leverage can give you in martial arts. It’s enough to make up for the common size ranges of real life humans. It’s not enough to make up for Stalwart’s superpower.
For example, the cool judo throws where you flip the opponent over your shoulder or back mostly rely on a simple principle: Bringing your center up mass under the opponent’s and lift them up by straightening out your legs, then throw them as they lose grounding. This works because human legs are fairly strong, strong enough to lift human bodies. But that only works to a certain level. Putting your center of mass under Stalwart’s will achieve nothing, because you can’t leg press a space shuttle.
Everything else works by a similar principle. Using someone’s own momentum against them requires you to be strong enough to significantly redirect their momentum. You can to that to a big human, but you won’t be able to meaningfully shift a space shuttle’s momentum, and a mouse won’t be able to bowl you over by tackling you.
Math is only slightly stronger than a human, aside from his enhanced punches and kicks. I don’t think he’s “leg press a space shuttle” level, so he’s not going to be much more effective than Seneca.
Dumb things happen in superhero comics all the time, that’s not a good argument, especially as a lot of Grrl Power is about interrogating “comic book logic”.
“For the same reason he couldn’t throw a space shuttle by using its own momentum against it.”
If someone is able to take out the wheel of the space shuttle without getting hit by it, are they really having to be able to throw the space shuttle? Or are they just needing to be strong enough to take out the wheel?
Which is still an astounding feat but no longer requiring Math to throw a space shuttle in order to win.
“Dumb things happen in superhero comics all the time, that’s not a good argument, especially as a lot of Grrl Power is about interrogating “comic book logic”.”
Except you’ve already seen Math being able to beat up at least 5 superpowered beings during the Restaurant Rumble, including Concretia. You’ve seen him do thing that REQUIRE comic book logic to make any sense at all with his martial arts.
“Math is only slightly stronger than a human,”
Math is a level 7, while Stalwart is a level 6. Not sure why you’re underestimating his abilities so much. Especially when even Maxima said that trying to determine whether he was a super or not was a losing proposition.
> If someone is able to take out the wheel of the space shuttle without getting hit by it, are they really having to be able to throw the space shuttle? Or are they just needing to be strong enough to take out the wheel?
What does “taking out the wheel” mean here? We’ve already agreed that he can’t hurt Stalwart, and since you appear to accept he can’t throw him either, how else does he win, except by points?
Stalwart is super durable, to the point that he survives the also rather strong Hiro attacking his weakest point. Math can’t get him by attacking weak points. How does he “take out the wheel”?
> You’ve seen him do thing that REQUIRE comic book logic to make any sense at all with his martial arts.
I’ve been consistently holding the position that his “martial arts” are a superhuman ability. That doesn’t imply he can beat Stalwart, which is what we’re debating here.
“Math is a level 7, while Stalwart is a level 6.”
He’s a level 1 in strength. So is Achilles, who is 1.5x stronger than a human. Harem, at 16x, is a 2. Stalwart is a 4, and at least 1000x stronger.
Math doesn’t have strength to lift a space shuttle.
“What does “taking out the wheel” mean here?”
Kicking the wheel at its weakest point to send the car in a direction that it was not supposed to go.
Think of it like this. Huge planet-killing asteroid heading towards the Earth. You send a missile to stop it. You arent going to send the missile to try to destroy it out right, because the asteroid is too big and too powerful for your missile. Instead, you have the missile hit the asteroid in such a way that it will slightly push it out of the intended trajectory, thus missing the Earth.
“Stalwart is super durable, to the point that he survives the also rather strong Hiro attacking his weakest point.”
Anvil is super durable too. Possibly more durable than Stalwart because of the nature of her powers. And Math beat her as well.
” Math can’t get him by attacking weak points.”
Please show me where, in the comic, it says that Stalwart has no weak points?
“I’ve been consistently holding the position that his “martial arts” are a superhuman ability. That doesn’t imply he can beat Stalwart, which is what we’re debating here.”
There are several examples in comics of people with ‘superhuman martial arts abilities’ defeating others who have superstrength and invulnerability.
Batman vs Superman
Batman vs Hulk
Karate Kid vs…. well anyone. His entire shtick is being able to attack anyone’s weakest point with his karate.
Cassandra Cain vs Wonder Girl
Cassandra Cain vs Supergirl
Cassandra Cain vs Superboy (Kon-El)
Karnak (of the Inhumans in Marvel Comics) – his entire deal is that EVERYTHING has a weak point even if they have superstrength and invulnerability, including powerhouses like Juggernaut or materials like adamantium.
Iron Fist vs Luke Cage
Batman vs Bane (he usually wins by taking out the tubes supplying Venom ™.
“He’s a level 1 in strength.”
Which is why he would not rely on strength to beat Stalwart, and would instead rely on skill, precision, and speed. Like Sun Tzu said, “in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
“Math doesn’t have strength to lift a space shuttle”
And he doesnt need the strength to lift a space shuttle. Math is not going to fight like Vehemence fights.
“Kicking the wheel at its weakest point to send the car in a direction that it was not supposed to go.”
Well, that’s not a thing. If you kick an oncoming car in the tire, you’re just hurting your foot, you’re not meaningfully changing its course. Unless you have super strength, and the bigger the car, the more you need. Like I already wrote: “Using someone’s own momentum against them requires you to be strong enough to significantly redirect their momentum.”
Against the asteroid it works because (1) the asteroid is far out, therefore even a small change of vector will have an impact in the long term (2) the asteroid is free-falling in space, therefore even a small push will result in some change to its vector, and it won’t correct afterwards.
If Math is in a position to push Stalwart, Stalwart will be right in front of him. He’ll just take a step after missing and turn around to face Math again. Also, he’s standing on solid ground. A push needs significant force, or Stalwart just minutely adjusts his leg muscles and barely notices your attempt to push him off-balance. Like I said, you wouldn’t get knocked over being tackled by a mouse even if it’s a martial arts mouse with perfect skill and precision.
“Which is why he would not rely on strength to beat Stalwart, and would instead rely on skill, precision, and speed.”
My point is that you need a certain level of strength to take advantage of skill, precision and speed. If you want to imbalance someone in order to use their own momentum against them, you need to have enough strength to do that. Leverage helps you, but has biomechanical limits. You still need to put out a certain force against the lever, and if you don’t have the strength, no amount skill or precision will help you.
“Anvil is super durable too.”
And he wasn’t able to hurt her either. He was able to throw her, because she’s no heavier than a large human, which means his strength and technique together are enough. This doesn’t work for Stalwart.
“Please show me where, in the comic, it says that Stalwart has no weak points?”
I didn’t say he has no weak points. I said even his weak points are too tough for Math too hurt. https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-279-high-risk-reversal/ This is him remaining standing after Hiro (who is much stronger than Math and should be able to leg press a space shuttle) kicked him in the weak point between his legs.
“There are several examples in comics of people with ‘superhuman martial arts abilities’ defeating others who have superstrength and invulnerability.”
And examples in other comics still are no evidence for anything regarding Grrl Power, especially if they rely on bad physics. If you show me a page of Math judo-throwing Stalwart at his heaviest, I will change my tune (probably to “this scene broke my suspension of disbelief” though), but no such page is in Grrl Power.
“And he doesnt need the strength to lift a space shuttle.”
As I explained, he does if he wants to shoulder throw Stalwart, and if he tries a different kind of throw, he also needs strength close to it, because he still needs to pull or push Stalwart’s space shuttle mass off balance. And he doesn’t have that strength if the cast page is correct.
“Well, that’s not a thing. If you kick an oncoming car in the tire, you’re just hurting your foot, you’re not meaningfully changing its course. ”
If you or I was to, then yes. Math is not us. He is a martial artist that is so good that differentiating whether he has superpowers or not is impossible to determine. Perhaps he can know the exact spot which would get the tire to blow out with a single strike, even while the car is moving, for that split second of contact. :)
Although that would be such an extreme martial arts feat that it might make you question whether it was the best martial artist in the world or someone with superpowers doing it.
Oh wait. That’s Math. :)
A human martial artist wouldn’t be able to do it either. Because blowing out a tire with a kick isn’t a thing. Math could maybe do it, because his kicks are stronger than a human, but we’re not actually talking about a car, but something rather stronger.
“Perhaps he can know the exact spot which would get the tire to blow out with a single strike, even while the car is moving, for that split second of contact”
Perhaps, or perhaps such a spot doesn’t exist.
We’re talking about Stalwart here. What is Stalwart’s weak point that is weak enough for Math to hurt?
“He is a martial artist that is so good that differentiating whether he has superpowers or not is impossible to determine.”
It’s actually very easy to determine that he does indeed have superhuman powers, specifically super martial arts. It’s easy to see his performances are beyond what a human could achieve even using perfect martial arts.
But that doesn’t mean his powers are enough to beat up Stalwart, who has strong superpowers of his own.
Since Stalwart can use his powers to counter gravity, I seriously doubt using his momentum against him is going to be an effective strategy.
If someone tries to run someone else over with a car, and the martial arts person steps out of the way at the last second so the car hits a wall, or (in the realm of super kung fu) kicks the tire so that the car spins out of control, the martial artist person did not need to be able to lift the car. The car would be working against its OWN momentum.
And Stalwart can presumably cancel his own momentum. I know his power is both odd and not very well explained, but you don’t seem to have the slightest understanding of his capabilities. He can fly. He can presumably stop himself in midair, just like Max did in the fight against Vehemence. He may be even better at that particular defense, even if he’s not a skilled flyer yet. He can effectively choose to become an immovable object on a moment’s notice. Momentum is not something anybody can use against him. You can chosen that absolute worst character for that particular argument.
We don’t know that Math has actually fought everyone.
There’s Ren, who wasn’t part of the team yet when Maxima made the claim, and I’d expect him to be able to beat Math, at least if charged up enough, given that he has super strength and super speed.
Also Jabberwokky, who is established as his peer.
Ren had already been a cadet when Maxima made that claim … we just hadnt yet seen him in the comic. Vance ? Spiders everywhere guy) was the newest cadet until Sydney joined, and now Jabberwokky is the newest member.
A cadet, or a full part of the team? My understanding was that they were getting them started on the basics, which might not include full contact sparring against the strongest team members.
Since Ren, like Max, should have the powers to defeat Math, I’m confident he hadn’t fought Math at the time.
You are making assumptions that go against the ONE bit of information that Maxima has stated. That Dabbler and herself were the ONLY ones who have beaten Math in a fight – and only MAxima has beaten him without magic.
Lets say I agree with the people who say that, based on that one sentence, it does not necessarily mean that Math has BEATEN everyone, but no one has been able to beat him (which I think itself is an assumption since Maxima did not mention any stalemates, so we shouldnt be ASSUMING stalemates). That one sentence still makes the implication that Math has fought EVERYONE in ARC-SWAT in spars. Including the cadets. Especially since Ren, AS A CADET, has sparred against Maxima as well.
> You are making assumptions that go against the ONE bit of information that Maxima has stated.
No, you are making assumptions. Pointing out the limits of what can be derived from a statement is the opposite of an assumption.
> (which I think itself is an assumption since Maxima did not mention any stalemates, so we shouldnt be ASSUMING stalemates)
“There were no stalemates” is an assumption. “It’s possible there were stalemates” is not, it’s the default in the absence of specific knowledge.
“That one sentence still makes the implication that Math has fought EVERYONE in ARC-SWAT in spars. Including the cadets.”
No, not really. Even in general, it’s a rather soft implication (“no one has beaten him, but X and Y never tried because they didn’t see the point” is consistent with what Maxima said. There’s additional information that makes it unlikely, but not the statement itself), and it doesn’t at all imply specifics about who “everyone” would include. It would be perfectly natural for Maxima to not give special mention to the new recruits who may or may not have free-form sparred anyone yet.
> Especially since Ren, AS A CADET, has sparred against Maxima as well.
If you’re referring to https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-825-punch-practice/, that wasn’t a straight fight. It was speed-and-precision training for Ren, with Max as a target.
Also, it was two months after the statement in question, so it doesn’t contradict the possibility at all that Ren wasn’t sparring at that point in his training.
I mean, we haven’t seen Sydney do any free-form sparring as part of her training, either.
(As an aside, a possibility that I didn’t think of is that Ren was unable to beat Math at that point in time, but we know that his power has been getting stronger over time.)
“No, you are making assumptions. Pointing out the limits of what can be derived from a statement is the opposite of an assumption.”
You are pointing out limits from NOTHING that’s been stated in the comic. That, by definition, is an assumption. You’re basically filling out the story from something that hasnt yet been mentioned by the author. It’s something a lot of people tend to do, but it’s a far more major assumption than an inference from a combination of what was said and what words were left out.
” (“no one has beaten him, but X and Y never tried because they didn’t see the point” is consistent with what Maxima said. ”
The second part of your sentence is a complete assumption, based on nothing that Maxima said or even implied. At least from what’s been in the comic so far.
” It would be perfectly natural for Maxima to not give special mention to the new recruits who may or may not have free-form sparred anyone yet.”
This again ANOTHER assumption you are making from nothing that was said in the comics. When Maxima says ‘No one’ you cannot say “No one (except the people who decided there was no point in fighting him since they can’t beat him even if he can’t beat them either)”. “No one” means “no one” until you have further evidence to support your belief.
“If you’re referring to https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-825-punch-practice/, that wasn’t a straight fight. It was speed-and-precision training for Ren, with Max as a target.”
I’m referring to the fact that MAXIMA HERSELF said that Ren has sparred. She didnt say ‘speed-and-precision training. She said he has SPARRED with her.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-969-gravity-assisted-motivation/
Panel 6 – Maxima: “Not to toot my own horn, but I don’t think you understand how impressive it is that you were able to SPAR with me.”
She literally used the exact word that you are denying has ever happened. I try to make my inferences based SPECIFICALLY on what is said in the comic, until something else is said that would refute that inference. And saying someone sparred with someone else because …. someone SAID they sparred with them is a lot more than even just an inference. It’s an outright statement of fact.
“it doesn’t contradict the possibility at all that Ren wasn’t sparring at that point in his training.”
You do understand that what you are saying are assumptions without confirmation of what’s actually been said in the comics right?
For example – you can say that Vance’s powers are the powers like Spider-Man. Because he said something about being full of spiders. That would be a complete assumption though, not based on anything confirmed in the comic. Because all he ever said was that he was ‘full of spiders’ (plus it’s probably a joke to weird out Sydney). If I was to be saying that he’s like Spider-Man because there’s nothing that contradicts that possibility, that would NOT be based on anything factual in the comic. It would be rampant speculation without persuasive evidence to support it.
“a possibility that I didn’t think of is that Ren was unable to beat Math at that point in time, but we know that his power has been getting stronger over time.)”
That’s based a -little- more on the comic, since they did mention that he’s getting better at using his powers.
PS – I apologize if anything I wrote sounded condescending. I wasn’t trying to be.
“You’re basically filling out the story from something that hasnt yet been mentioned by the author.”
No, you are. I’m pointing out you’re doing it. You’re claiming Math had fought Ren, I’m saying this doesn’t follow from the statement in the comic you derive it from. (I did claim that he didn’t at one point, but using an additional argument that I no longer endorse. But it’s still possible he didn’t, and your argument he did is unconvincing.)
I’m filling out the story explicitly as a possibility, to illustrate that your filling out of the story isn’t the only way it could be.
“The second part of your sentence is a complete assumption”
Again, it’s not an assumption. I didn’t say it was the case, I even said it was unlikely. I just said it was a possible way to read Maxima’s statement.
“When Maxima says ‘No one’ you cannot say “No one (except the people who decided there was no point in fighting him since they can’t beat him even if he can’t beat them either)”.”
Then it’s good I’m not saying that. After all, the people who haven’t fought him obviously haven’t beaten him either, so pointing out that someone possibly hasn’t fought him doesn’t contradict Maxima’s statement.
It does contradict your statement that “Math has fought EVERYONE”. Because it’s pointing out that that doesn’t follow from Maxima’s statement.
There are probably about eight billion people, not counting aliens, that Math hasn’t fought. Maxima can say no one has beaten him without including a list of who he hasn’t fought. This doesn’t imply he has fought anyone specific, and it doesn’t imply he’s fought all the recruits.
“She literally used the exact word that you are denying has ever happened.”
Not at all, and when you make a claim about exact words, you should properly read those exact words. I used the word “straight fight”, because that’s the word used in Maxima’s original statement. A spar is not the same as a straight fight, it can include any number of special rules, handicaps or simply not going all out. Specifically, when we saw Max sparring Ren, she wasn’t “properly” fighting, she was just defending to let him train his speed.
And make no mistake, he probably was free-form sparring other team members at that point. But I had to point out you were making implications that didn’t follow.
“I try to make my inferences based SPECIFICALLY on what is said in the comic, until something else is said that would refute that inference.”
The problem is that such an inference can sometimes be simply wrong by itself – because you misread the statement in question, because of logical errors, because you made assumptions that aren’t in evidence. Then the inference can be refuted without reference to other statements in the comic. Specifically, one way to refute an inference is to point out that other models consistent with the statement exist. This doesn’t require claiming the other model is true, only that it’s possible. That’s what I’ve been doing and what you misidentified as “making assumptions”.
“For example – you can say that Vance’s powers are the powers like Spider-Man. Because he said something about being full of spiders.”
Yes, and then you could say that doesn’t follow, and you could give as an example that his powers could also be like Lolth’s. And if I then said that was an assumption, and there was nothing in the comic saying his powers were like Lolth, then I’d be rather missing your point.
King Fu Theatre was how I survived the Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul between the ages of four and seven.
Otherwise known as Sunday afternoons in a city apartment building, between lunch and dinner, when neither parent would take me to the park.
I see another Douglas Adams / Dirk Gently fan from that shout-out.
Just my 2c, but the crazy shaolin monk exercise that really impressed me is when they wrap themselves around a tree trunk by bending backwards and grabbing their feet over their heads, then tucking their feet under their chins. It seems to be a real thing too – https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6882265/Shaolin-monks-display-amazing-flexibility-wrap-bodies-trees-kung-fu-training.html
In the UK we only had 4 channels for a chunk of my childhood then channel 5 was created and we had 5.
Come on Math. You don’t punch someone with horns in the face. If a species has horns, they more than likely smashed their heads together. For a horned species, you go for the soft tissue.
The way his head and trapezius muscles are formed, I would have gone for stomping his feet.
Frix is going to need some personal post Dr visit attention.
When I was a kid there were ABC, CBS, and NBC. I think PBS arrived later.
Punching hard stuff only hurts when you don’t go through.
For most of my pre-teen years, we had five (non-cable) channels: ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and independent WPTY 24. We got a second independent (WLMT 30) in 1983. Today, the ABC and Fox (24) stations swiched places and 30 is a CW affiliate. Plus all the digital offshoots.
Are there truly independent stations anymore? Even the mighty WGN carries CW content now.
Completely off-topic, what’s missing here that is in a lot of superhero stories are the long-term elements, for example, a competent recurring enemy, an overall plot line, or long-term difficult goals for the main characters. I really don’t count Deus as a recurring enemy because he isn’t a nemesis and his overall goals look generally good (he’s just ruthless about them). So the whole comic is forced into slice-of-life or problem-of-the-week mode because there isn’t anything long-term going on.
But that’s not so much a problem, as it is the style of comic he wanted to write.
There is a competent recurring enemy in Sciona, and there are plenty of open plot hooks that DaveB could visit if he doesn’t know what else to write next.
It’s like Brett said: This comic is not “forced into” slice-of-life, it’s slice-of-life because it’s explicitly what it’s supposed to be: https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/about/
If you read the about page for the comic, “day in the life” is exactly what the author wants it to be.
There’s a whole heap of enemies who could become recurring enemies, and Sciona looks like she’s going to be back as a main part of the action soon (of course with
But the comic is explicitly slice of life with the odd bits of superhero action happening at times
It’s not being forced into it
Is Altus a heavyworlder?
It’s possible but we don’t know. For all we know he was the runt ot the litter.
Much better. Panel 3 is an absurdly hard move to pull off, I’ve only ever seen the arm version, but just the kind of move I’d expect from Math. Given how fluffy was already off balance and falling due to the strike to the jaw, I would have expected this move to spin him around some more though, but that’s a minor quibble.
Still too many lines btw. Simpler is better.
Not sure why Math chose the ‘sock-em in the jaw’ method to the big guy, but you have to start somewhere I guess. Math should be exploiting joints, nerves, balance weaknesses and easy access vital points, imo. He’s not Max after all. Taking the big guy down is gonna be a tough cookie for Math I think. Perhaps exploiting the lower back which tend to have the weaker muscles (you can train them as much as you like but they’re still weaker than any other muscle pretty much) or tendons. Not sure how this guy is constructed biologically speaking!
When we were stationed in Newfoundland there was one station, the Canadian public network and they had some educational content in the afternoon and Bugs Bunny at 1800. And obviously Hockey Night In Canada during the season. That’s where I became a Maple Leafs fan back in 1961-2. A follower of lost causes.