Grrl Power #1161 – Succubestie
When I had originally envisioned the comic, I’d sort of planned on trying to go the “Mega Dragon and Tiger” route with the art. That is, do simpler flat art for much of the comic, with the occasional “glamor shot” as needed for dramatic or artistic emphasis. There might be an actual name for that art strategy, but “MD&T” was one of the first I noticed it in. Unfortunately, they don’t sell them on Comixology or anywhere I can find digitally. I’m still trying to stick to the simpler art for a bit, but I thought I’d use the opportunity to experiment with the “glamor shot” tactic. So yeah, Max isn’t literally glowing there in panel 3, it’s just supposed to be like, “She’s so hot she practically has a halo and a gauzy, bokeh background.”
Dabbler would be a bad friend if she didn’t do all she could to help out a friend in need… is how she justifies it. Well, not all she could do. Succubi can go a hell of a lot further than “Feeble Aura of Xanax,” that’s for sure. (Xanax coincidentally being a god from a minor pantheon whose mantle encompasses “Being chill, brah.” But this is one of those areas that falls into “a savage beating” from Maxima if she gets found out.
Max and Dabbler’s definitions of mind control is a Venn Diagram, or I think technically it’s a Euler Diagram, where “Anything at all that effects another person’s mind against their will/knowledge/consent” is Max’s circle, and totally enclosed inside that circle at about 1/3 the size is the stuff that Dabbler considers mind control.
Max admits there are plenty ambiguous cases where, for instance, someone hands you a drink at a party that has way more alcohol in it than it seems (and even excluding the possibility of other additives) isn’t “mind control,” even if they are trying to affect your mental state without your knowledge. Maybe they think you’re a funny drunk and maybe it’s more nefarious than that, but still, calling it “mind control” is a little dramatic. At the same time, she admits there’s no real difference between 8 shots of tequila and ecstasy and an actual mind control potion, as long as the person imbibing knows ahead of time what affect it will have on them. (Like, someone could make a “mind control” potion that just makes you hyper focused, or very comfortable with nudity for when you visit Nudist Risa (also known as regular Risa to some people.)) Alteration is alteration, whether it’s chemical, hypnotic, Inceptic, or whatever.
The May vote incentive is finally up! Digit has some new and exciting tech to show off, as well as some other things, albeit inadvertently.
Variant outfits and lack thereof over at Patreon, as well as the semi-usual bonus incentive related comic.
.
.
Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. Feel free to contribute as much as you like.
SuperheroThey're super, thanks for asking!
Meatspace ComicSeriously these are awesome. Check 'em out!
Not UpdatingNo longer updating or only updates sporadically, but definitely worth reading.
SeriouslySeriously you guys. If you like Grrl Power the check these out.
"Mature"Mature subject matter and occasionally something explicit but usually safe. Can't guarantee the ads are safe though.
Dongs Ahoy!Full frontal and backal. Lots of skin, sex on some or all pages, explicit or otherwise.
I have a feeling Dabler should really watch the consent tea movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ
Oh god, that video is great! Funny AND gets the point across perfectly! Thanks for sharing it.^^
Since comments are turned off on that video (understandable given the bizarrely controversial nature of the topic), I’ll add what I wanted to add to the video here.
It’s also important to note that not everybody likes their tea the same way, just because someone agreed to tea, doesn’t mean they agreed to seven lumps of sugar, or filling half the cup with cream. Ask them how they want their tea, and then prepare it that way so they can enjoy their tea. Don’t just assume everyone’s okay with how you like your tea, especially if the way you like your tea prepared is rather extreme.
Same thing with sex, just because they agreed to have sex with you, doesn’t mean they agreed to do every sex act you are into and if they decide they are uncomfortable with the way things are going, they can decide to revoke their consent at any time and you should stop the sex.
If someone asked you for tea, and you added tons of sugar and milk and cream, and they decide they don’t want their tea like that, you can either prepare them a cup that’s more to their taste, or be okay with them not finishing their tea, don’t pour it down their throat. Similarly, if someone asked you for sex, and when you try to shove stuff up their butt they tell you they aren’t into that, you either do the sex they are comfortable with, or stop having sex, but you definitely don’t shove stuff up their butt anyway.
Just like not everyone likes their tea prepared the same way, not everybody is into the same kinds of sex, and agreeing to one thing is not the same as agreeing to everything or anything.
Well said!
Also, one thing they forgot: if someone says “Yes, I would like tea!” and you make the tea and give it to them and they start drinking the tea and then say “Actually, sorry, I don’t like this tea”…DON’T MAKE THEM DRINK THE REST OF THE TEA! Yeesh.
Also, yeah. Why is consent controversial or hard to understand???
There can be aspects to consent and consential behavior that can be problematic. For instance, post-facto revoking consent if you come to regret the action you previously consented to.
For instance, take a one-night stand you engaged in starting at a good party. Both people involved got a bit tipsy, and you were the one to initiate the make-out that was reprociated and ended up in bed. Next morning, sober, you come to regret said ONS. Maybe because you come to not like the other person in their sober state.
In that situation, should you be able to claim there was no consent between the involved parties? Because some people do claim exactly that when they come to regret their previous actions.
Or, when they learn they can make some money from it, or to ruin the person, specially both
We’re seeing Dabbler from Brooke’s point-of-view, and Heatwave is very, very confused over what Dabbler is talking about. Then again, being blissfully unaware of the fourth wall probably makes it easier to sleep at night.
Dabbler, didn’t you learn anything from the Jaberwoky situation?
She’s learned how to make similar mistakes in all new ways for OTHER people. :)
At least On a semantic level, I’m with dabbler here, especially if you have to legislate magic. You have to get specific with your language and this isn’t mind control. Mind control is when your forcing them to think against his they wasn’t and would do. The old puppeteering trick. This is mental augmentation, which is still something you shouldn’t do without consent.
Dabbler’s “input” to this isn’t a matter of mind-controlling Max…It’s mind-controlling everyone around Max. It still looks like uninformed, non-consensual mind-control to me.
The “mind control” isn’t making them *do* anything. It might be mind *alteration*, but it is not “control”.
More, it is basically “permission to approach, and comfort doing so”. That might be annoying to her, but notice that even as she is blowing guys off, they are not being *destroyed* by it.
I think most people there would consent to that effect (or even like it to be permanent and always-on for all targets.)
This also reframes the officer a few pages back noting that her name is a porn name. He was the only person so far who might NOT have consented to being slipped an “okay to proposition”.
If the spell produces a different output from the same non-spell inputs, it’s mind control, period. it absolutely doesn’t matter what “most people would consent to”, or how small the effect is. Half a roofie is still a roofie. A roofie that makes you feel OK about being roofied is still a roofie. A roofie that makes you feel OK about what you did while roofied is still a roofie. Dabbler done fucked. Uuuuuuuuuup…
I see a scenario where the only thing that can stop Dabbler’s ass being pounded – but not in the good way – is Maxima’s sense of duty regarding the treatment of subordinate officers.
A clarification: By “not in the good way” I don’t mean roleplay, dom/sub, or other sexytime shenanigans; I mean a savage beatdown.
On the other hand, who doesn’t want to see a Maxima/Dabbler bout, in the best comic-book traditions?
“If the spell produces a different output from the same non-spell inputs, it’s mind control, period. ”
So… like a smile. Imagine you’re in a bar and you want to attract people. So you smile at them. That produces a different output from the same non-smile inputs, is it then mind control?
Any standard of “mind control” that, followed to its logical conclusion, defines any and all effective communication as violence, seems too broad to be useful for moral judgements.
There is a difference between mind CONTROL and mind AFFECTING. Both are pretty not-okay (to say the least), but they are not the same thing.
Mind control effects are a sub-category of mind affecting effects, and most definitely the worst sub-category, morally speaking, as it’s just straight up slavery, which as far as I am concerned is the worst act of evil possible. Memory alteration, emotional manipulation, attention/perception alteration, are all also mind affecting effects that can only qualify as mind control if taken to the extreme of basically suborning someone’s volition. If I alter someone’s perception so they can’t see a particular door, that’s not mind control, that’s a perception filter, if I alter someone’s perception so that they see a scene that will provoke the reaction I want from them and not what they’d do if they saw what was really there, like seeing their worst enemy instead of their pregnant wife, for instance, that could be argued to be mind control. If I alter someone’s memory such that they forget the name of the street they grew up on, that’s not mind control, if I alter someone’s memory such that I am their best friend and truest love and their spouse is their most hated enemy so they do what I say and attack their spouse, that’s mind control. If I alter the emotional state of a crowd to be calm in an emergency situation to avoid making things worse, that’s not mind control, if I alter the emotional state of a person to intense love and devotion to me so they’ll do whatever I want, that’s mind control.
Mind control is overriding volition to produce actions you want and they do not, it is totally possible to have mind affecting effects that do not override volition. That is not a moral distinction, however. I am not saying affecting someone’s mind is okay if it’s not mind control, just that they are not the same thing. I do think there are ethical uses for mind affecting powers, situations where you are operating with direct and explicit informed consent of the person who’s mind you are affecting is a good example, emergencies where you can reduce the amount of danger by making people calm and drawing their attention to the emergency exit or whatever is another good example, using a perception filter to avoid being noticed so people won’t bother you is only unethical if you use this to do unethical things like voyeurism or robbery.
This is mind affecting, but not mind control. As for ethics, I think I would need clarified on if this nudges people to approach her if they otherwise wouldn’t want to, or if it just makes it okay to approach her if they want to in order to really judge. Either way it’s definitely sticky, morally speaking, at the very least, but I feel the latter goes right UP to the line but doesn’t actually cross it, while the former is most definitely well over the line. I could see people getting mad about the latter effect, but I don’t think it really goes any further than “morally ambiguous”. Sketchy? Yes. Evil? No. Unless it actually is causing people to do things they normally wouldn’t want to, like if one of those dudes is spoken for and ordinarily he would never approach a woman since he wouldn’t cheat, that’s not cool, but if it’s just preventing them from getting intimidated or talking themselves out of shooting their shot when they want to and normally would, then I think it’s fine. That’s not a lowering of inhibitions, it’s just removing unnecessary barriers. I don’t think it’s any more wrong than a reverse perception filter that makes you more noticeable, so long as it isn’t drawing so much attention that people are crashing cars and walking into walls, it’s fine. People are gonna notice, they’re gonna look, and then they’re gonna do whatever they’re gonna do.
You do realize that “mind affecting” includes such things as ads, politics, music, *language*…?
Gotta agree with you here, rather than down the thread:
Slipping someone “half a” “no-side-effects” “not a roofie” for the purpose of getting them on board for a hook-up is not meaningfully different from the real deal.
My inhibitions are mine!
Isn’t this like a woman wearing pheromone-laced perfume (assuming human pheromones exist and work in situations like this)? I’d consider Max to be the victim more than anyone else.
The men and women affected would be the biggest victims since they are the ones losing a measure of their agency to make decisions, not Maxima.
I honestly thought the entire deal with the choker was just changing hues and color, not an actual glamour. I’ll have to read up on how she described it at the party when I’m not on my phone
I thought glamor was just the terminus technicus for the illusion magic Succubi use change appearance.
I agree. You can’t define everything that influences the mind as mind control. Alcohol makes you let go of your restraint, but nobody else is controlling you, you’re just losing your own control instead.
If everything gets labeled mind control, then the term loses all meaning, because if nobody draws a line then at some point even holding a speech or just looking at someone else will be labeled that. The rain outside is controlling my mind into not going for a walk.
BUT: Dabbler can’t use “it’s not mind control” as a defense if she does something else that would’ve required consent instead. Remember when Dabbler warmed up Sydney who then jumped on her Edward Dakimakura? Not mind control, but also something that you’re not supposed to do without consent.
Affirmative. Consent.
Slipping someone a Mickey is still violation of consent.
I like Dabbler, but this was not okay.
Its not mind control per se but it is like technological spanish fly. Which is not okay. And like you mentioned… the warming spell. Dabbler might get hit in the ol gazorpazorp again.
This reminds me of the whole “is it mind control” conversation in EGS…starting here and going several pages: https://www.egscomics.com/comic/party-215
Pressure release chopsticks! :D
A magic roofie is still a roofie.
It boils down to informed, affirmative consent.
Dabbler’ doodad violates that, in its current configuration. She needs to correct that.
Feels more like magic spanish fly than a magic roofie but yeah I agree with you.
Whether it makes them horny, or reduces their inhibitions, the point remains that it’s a violation of consent.
Part of the reason I am so very strident about this, is that I’ve built a similar Effect, in a M:tA game. I called the spell, “The Curse of Hellen,” and it was the source of a lot of controversy at the table. Eventually, in spite of its usefulness as a distraction in social scenarios, we ultimately decided as players & characters that it was “bad juju.”
The Curse of Helen (Life 3, Mind 2)
This rote requires at least four successes and makes the social life of most anyone a nightmare of unwanted advances for at least one scene, with additional successes adding to the duration.
First, the Life component manipulates the subject’s pheromones to trigger constant attraction and arousal in literally everyone they come into contact with. Second, it surrounds them with a mental aura of interest and flirtatiousness which causes everything they do and say to become unconscious coquetry and encouragement of more aggressive “pursuit”.
Note that this doesn’t affect the subject’s own actual interest, preferences, or wishes. It just makes them everyone else’s sex-object of desire.
“Whether it makes them horny, or reduces their inhibitions, the point remains that it’s a violation of consent.”
I know. I’m just being nitpicky in the manner in which it does violate their consent. I totally agree with your problem with this.
“it was the source of a lot of controversy at the table. Eventually, in spite of its usefulness as a distraction in social scenarios, we ultimately decided as players & characters that it was “bad juju.””
I’m also assuming this would be a problem if cast by someone who was claiming to be lawful good (or lawful anything really).
Generally not an issue in a Mage: The Ascension game, for many reasons ;)
I tended to either play Sons of Ether or Verbena or Solificati when I played Mage the Ascension and I’m just realizing each of those groups are likely to come up with devices or potions which would do what Dabbler did. :)
Sons of Ether = well… Mad Scientists basically :) I could see them designing something like the collar’s aura thing.
Verbena and Solificati are both likely to be able to make love potions.
I did also occasionally play Syndicate or Progenitors when we’d play Technocracy (tried to get into Iteration X but it was a bit too boring for me – probably would have enjoyed Void Engineers though). I could see Progenitors designing some sort of super-pheremone and I could see the Syndicate marketing it. :)
As much as I utterly loathe the Syndicate, I will admit that I saw something with potential in their Primal Utility Sphere.
…which is why I stole it, and spent the entire campaign recreating as my own Sphere of Primogeniture. Worked out beautifully. Created my own Verbena sub-Tradition, which we named Sol-Aurs. Here’s the exposition dump from my original notes, if you’re interested:
>>Fiction<<
So, what I’m picturing is what amounts to the beginning of a new sect within the Verbena. The idea being that while Kitty is very much about The Old Ways, she has learned to view them through the lens of the modern world. She embraces the idea of staying close to the essential nature of things, but understands that science and technology work, in large part, because they are a part of nature.
(Hit BoS, p. 294 “Mercurial Synergies”)
I’ve been framing up the base concepts, and while I haven’t got a finished product yet, here’s the outlines I’ve put together.
Catherine’s frame for Primal Utility:
Things exist because they are (or are potentially) observed to interact
Quintessential energies arise from the interactions of elements of the Tellurian
Interactions result in Change (Catalysis)
Catalysis reifies something new in the Tellurian (Production)
Therefore, Quintessential energies arise from Production
The act of Observation is an interaction (Catalysis)
Observation leads to assessment (Valuation)
Value is the Product of Observation
Therefore, Quintessential energies arise from Value
Certain continuous cycles of Production exist
Catalyzed Production cycles gain further Quintessential energy through Valuation
Valued Production yields Quintessential surpluses which may be conserved
Therefore, Quintessential surpluses of Valued Catalyzed Production may be conserved
Cycles of Quintessential Production are an element of the Tellurian (Natural)
Quintessential energies are universally useful (Fungible)
Human activities (Enterprise) Catalyze Production of Quintessential energies
Therefore, Enterprise is Fungible
Conclusion:
Productive Enterprises generate surpluses of Quintessential energy as a part of a Natural cycle. By engaging with Naturally occurring Production, Enterprise can add Value, thus increasing available Quintessential energies.
Thus, the typical behaviors of human society exist as a part of, rather than apart from, the other expressions of Natural Reality. Because of this, it is possible to draw Quintessential energies from Enterprise in the same manner that a tree draws them from the light of the sun. This, then, is why Solar symbols (including gold) have long been understood by Sleeper societies to represent vitality and prosperity at the same time.
Our model, then, is a triangulation of Human Enterprise, Natural Production, and Fungibility in the pursuit of adding to the Value of the Tellurian. In this way, we become cultivators of Reality, building a surplus of Quintessential resources to facilitate Awakening and Ascension.
In counterpoint to the modern Syndicate, our watchword must be Production, rather than Consumption. Our measure must be Sustainability, and not merely endless Growth, which has been rightly observed to be the philosophy of a cancer cell. Our goal must be Liberation of the mind and the spirit, as much as of the body, and not Domination of any of these three things.
We must be like the Sun, providing sustaining energies and illuminating the world, yet without issuing dictates or demands.
Outlines for the Solar (Sol-Aur?) Cult of Verbena
(The Children of The Sun, Solars, Golden Child (individually); City-Kitties (pejorative), Icarus (individual; insulting, an “I told you so”), Witchy-Rich (denigrating;fighting words))
A sect within the Verbena which tends towards a Solar tradition rather than a lunar one
Solar Verbena, being products of the modern age of information and cosmopolitanism, actually incorporate multiple Solar deity symbols into their practice, including Apollo, Ré, Huitzilopochtli, and Horus, as well as the female figures of Amaterasu, Mawu, and Doumu, which is of specific interest to the Hippolytoi
The inclusion of solar figures from the traditions of pre-colonial Africa, the pre-Columbian Americas, as well as China and Japan, have attracted the interest of players within the Disparate Alliance, particularly the Bata’a, Ngoma, and the Wu Lung.
Focuses on human beings as a positive natural force
Very concerned with sustainability and ethics
Recognize the cities and farms created by human beings as a part of their nature, and by extension, a Part of Nature
Solars get very good at understanding, influencing and, when necessary, controlling the urban environment, and continue to practice the Life magic that makes any Verbena a force to be reckoned with in rural areas
Work hard to understand and improve the balance between human enterprises and nature, particularly between the needs of cities and the environment they occupy
Very engaged with education, infrastructure and agriculture
Tends towards Social and Mental Attributes
Embraces a Darwinian view of Memetic Adaptation
Adaptation is a Primal Reality
The Old Ways demand change (Evolve or Perish)
Uses Primogeniture, rather than Prime.
Very cool. :) I could totally see someone who likes playing Wu Lung, and makes sense about the Bata’a since a lot of Bata’a wound up joining the Verbena (or the Dreamspeakers) in the lore.
Ever play any other Traditions/Conventions or did you stick mainly to Verbena? Like I said, I mainly played Sons of Ether (had this really fun one who was an artificial creation created by a father which was housing the soul of an SoE, who was his daughter who had been almost killed by a Nephandi (it was fun, the body was an SoE take on the Hitmark VI so it was heavily Matter and Prime sphere based.); the Verbena; and the Solificati (played one which was constantly trying to help out the Arcanum with their lesser magick by giving them the means to true alchemy in hopes that they’re Awaken their sparks). But I also occasionally played a few others. Like I said, Syndicate and Progenitor when we’d have a Technocracy campaign, but I did once play a Void Engineer and I’ve also played an Akashic and a couple of Hermetics from Houses Diedne and Merinita (for a Changeling/Mage campaign). I also once tried to play a Kopa Loei but really couldnt get into it.
Sort of miss playing White Wolf games. I still have almost 130 books from it – takes up 3 shelves on my bookshelves. Mainly Vampire and Mage (almost every Mage one actually – love the concept) but also a bunch of Werewolf, a few Changling, a couple of Wraith, all the ‘Day of the Hunter’ books, and a bunch of other miscellaneous ones (the two Mummy books, etc). Oh and also the Abberant books, which are basically Superhero white wolf books, even though they’re not in the same universe as the other white wolf stuff, but use the same basic system.
I tend to stick with Verbena, but I’ve also run Hermetics and Hollowers. Played as an Etherite focusing on psionics & crystals before, but I leaned heavily into the Soviet side of things, and made a lot of other people cranky, so I let it go.
Pity. I liked playing Sergei.
Is Dabbler addressing the 4th wall here?
Don’t tell Sidney. She’s been trying to do that for ages.
My bet? The chocker has a camera and microphone to check to make sure she is safe… And suddenly the line of people lining up to ask her out probably lead someone to ask Dabbler what her magical charm necklace is doing.
Because while we trust Dabbler the rest of the government is a bit skeptical. Some for good reason. Others for less than good reasons.
“Make sure she’s safe”… “secretly film the next hit reality show / porno”… to-may-to, to-mah-to as far as Dabbler’s concerned apparently.
Yes, and Thanks Dave, I was wondering if Dabs did another no-no. It’s funny as all get-out but Max may figure it out anyway and Dabbler might find herself in a wall again lol.
Switched back to the April vote incentive on this post by accident?
Years later. the small town has become a burgeoning tourist attraction where cosplayers portraying her exactly have a long line of suitors to deny. several debts were paid during those times
Okay that explains so much. Even though Maxima must be very pretty to some people, she can’t be everyone’s type. Under normal circumstances some people should’ve talked to the other three women as well. For me, the other three women are all prettier than Maxima, especially the two dark-haired ones.
I wonder if Dabbler’s help actually had the opposite effect of what she was trying to achieve, i.e. maybe some of these guys would’ve been more composed in their flirting, maybe she would’ve gotten a breather in-between these guys to make up her mind on who (if any) of these guys would be her type, so maybe Dabbler’s…. well, dabbling, actually lowered Maxima’s odds of finding a dude she’d like spend the evening with.
But it’s nice to see Dabbler messing up every once in a while. I didn’t expect her to be unable to find a way to help out anyone when it comes to dating of all things, even when we’re talking about someone like Maxima, but I guess even someone as smart and experienced as Dabbler still has a lot to learn.
Also I’m very curious what kind of punishment Maxima would actually dish out against Dabbler if she found out.
Dabbler: High Int, average Wis.
Just like how she missed the whole ‘toss a rock with a tracking spell through the blood portal.’ :)
Dabbler has the drawback of any super intelligence, over-thinking. Plus, you don’t need super intelligence to make that mistake, when i was a factory mechanic, I’d go overboard with the diagnosis and miss the real problem. More often than not it was a good thing because I found the cause of the breakdown, not just the part that broke.
Oh, that’s right, that happened too. Yeah, Dabbler occasionally being on the receiving end of comic relief is hilarious.
Can’t be a proper mad scientist without occasionally getting into trouble with Libyans chasing you with rocket launchers for their stolen plutonium.
Best to just always wear a bulletproof vest anyways, just in case.
Dabbler’s punishment?
Turtleneck sweater, khaki’s, white socks, sandals and at least two weeks of Mr. Rogers and Bob Ross marathons.
And a hose.
Nah, Just a month of being a tour guide/chaperone on any Earth based tours for Ray Cosmos… https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-870-should-auld-acquaintance-show-up-at-work/
MAXIMA: I hold prospective partners to an impossibly high standard, why can’t I get a date?…
Realistically, she’s got a serious problem, in that she has to find a literal one in a million guy just to relax while getting intimate. It’s the inverse “Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex”. Just her default level of strength risks accidentally killing people unless she maintains a certain reserve.
True, but that’s a physical problem, and she knows at least a dozen such guys thanks to her job, I’m talking about her personality
Yes, “don’t be an egotistical, sexist creep” is such a terribly high bar to clear. How unreasonable of her to expect any adult human man to manage that.
She did once even briefly (no pun intended i promise) assume the worst of Hiro, who is a complete gentleman, who she really likes, after the Vehemence fightvwhen hecwas pantomiming ‘debrief’ and her first assumption was he was hitting on her. :)
So there might be an argument that she has a default setting of ‘men are pigs’ instead of giving the benefit of a doubt.
True. Just because 3 out of 4 men we saw speech bubbles of (including the police officer) were “egotistical, sexist creeps” doesn’t mean that they’re anywhere close to the majority of men hitting on her, because being a creepy man who gets his deserved shut-down is part of the comedy of this comic, and showing a bunch of good men to even that out just wouldn’t be entertaining.
Though it does elude me why Max would seek entertainment from a place typically associated with drunken creeps and hook-up culture. Don’t people know how to have fun without alcohol or other drugs anymore? There are usually a ton of clubs (the non-disco ones) around, e.g. for dancing, playing chess, learning a language, Pen&Paper etc. Isn’t that so much more fun than just sitting around and talking/flirting?
Btw: How do native english-speakers distinguish clubs that are discos from non-disco clubs when talking about the latter?
Oh and there was also the time when Hiro was basically sexually harassed by Harem (she stole his shirt off his back because ‘bad news is best delivered topless’). And Hiro genuinely seemed annoyed about it because ‘that gag was getting old.’ And then Maxima was basically checking him out with a leering grin and said ‘Eh. She’s not wrong.’ Then when Hiro said the same thing to Maxima, Maxima responded that HE was skirting an H.R. violation. Moments after he had been the victim of an H.R. violation compounded by Maxima agreeing with the harassment being okay. :)
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-951-superheroes-on-melted-ice/
So again, if Hiro can be viewed by her as acting sexist, no other men on the planet stand a chance of being given a fair shake. :)
Ok, i re-read that page and the HR-violation line was SO obviously a joke between friends. Max sure is quick to jump to conclusions about men wanting things and your example about the “debriefing” gesture was a good one. But this one is a big stretch.
I know and Hiro probably took it as a joke too, since he immediately went on to the next subject to change subjects, but I was surprised that Maxima wasnt annoyed at HAREM and gave her a pass for harassing Hiro, her superior officer. She was also annoyed with Hiro for having an erection when Anvil pressed Maxima and Hiro together after the super mannekiller exploded and destroyed most of their clothes. Although she did defend Hiro when Sydney started going on and on about how big Hiro was. Poor Hiro :)
All the prospective partners she could have are either in her chain of command (Hiro, Achilles), attached (Mr. Amorphous) or not that interesting (Cooter/Wormil). Most others would be accidentally injured or killed during copulation.
Nah, Maxima can drain her strenght and put that energy in the pool during copulation. She doesn’t have the Clark Kent problem of Lois brain hitting the wall after discharging.
She just chooses to be at superhuman levels all the time.
Maxima is able to lowe her strength to its absolute lowest, which I’m guessing even mere mortal men would be able to survive. Probably would have to if for no other reason than as a safety feature and raise something to above max which would not cause a disaster straight out of The Boys instead.
strength, speed, armor, energy blast, what’s number five in the multipower? Flight. I’m thinking she’d have to go full armor, because the other ones have predictable negative effects. If armor doesn’t kill her sense of touch, that is. Flight is a dark horse here. No idea what extra power in flight would do if you’re not actually moving…
Sure, she can lower it, but does it stay lowered if she’s distracted?
I think so, based on what happened when Brut took advantage of her distraction to punch her across downtown Manhattan when most of her setting was put into speed.
Seems like it from the uses we have seen. She voluntaryily usually keeps her default at a ‘magic triangle setting’ of strength/armor/speed but we havent seen anything that said it reverts to that automatically. Maybe there will eventually be a Dabblers Science Corner or explain stuff more directly though.
And this right here is why Dabbler is my least favorite character. Oh, it’s not “mind control”, she’s just exerting an unnatural mental influence on their psyche which they are not aware of and never agreed to, which just so happens to have had an unintended side effect she never accounted for despite supposedly being the smartest being on the planet.
Intelligence isn’t wisdom.
Elon Musk is proof of that.
So is half the posters
You are generous with your praise.
Muskrat doesn’t have Intelligence either.
He just has a big bag of emeralds and got lucky.
That’s envy and ignorance talking.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. You can’t really “luck” your way into a steadily increasing wealth while doing near-impossible things.
Musk started with $100k in student debt, built Zip2 and sold it for $300M, then built x.com which merged to become Paypal.
Separately after that he built SpaceX (which initially to many people was obviously just a crazy personal hobby) and then Tesla.
“There are many myths surrounding Musk’s parents’ financial wealth. One rumor is that his father owned an emerald mine, which Musk denied. He actually worked his way through college and had $100,000 in student debt.”
“Musk belonged to an upper-middle-class family in South Africa. So, while they were wealthy enough to have a comfortable lifestyle, they couldn’t support Musk after he moved to Canada. Musk didn’t get his early money from his parents for startups.”
> Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
No, Luck is getting the oppertunity at all.
> Musk started with $100k in student debt
No, he didn’t.
He inherited an Emerald Mine run by slave labour.
So, you’ve gone the full “internet rumors are truth” way. Enjoy your fantasy universe, Mr Q.
“I didn’t get any opportunities!” is what people who weren’t prepared think…
The claimed emerald mine collapsed in 1989, the year Musk entered college in Canada’s Queen’s University. Two years later, he moved to U Penn to finish his BSc Physics and BA Economics.
He created Zip2 with no help from his father, although the father joined a later round of funding with about $20K to get 10% of that round’s stock… a round which would have sold out anyway.
LIke I said, envy and ignorance.
I’m having trouble understanding why you’re so desperate to believe in the myth of the self-made billionaire.
Musk was born into wealth, which presented him with opportunities & options that very, very few people get.
There’s nothing inherently “wrong” with that, in isolation, but the fact is, he was born on third base, and you’re acting like he hit a homer.
The bit where people question his intelligence comes entirely from his own actions. The debacle with the bird site is just the tip of the iceberg, but it is emblematic.
I think the real problem you’re having here, is that you are one of those people who instinctively trusts hierarchies are just. You need Elon to be Tony Stark because that justifies your own feelings of superiority over others. You need those people who challenge the hierarchy itself to be “envious,” because if it turns out that the hierarchy itself is unjust, then that means your own assumption of superiority is unjust.
In other words, you’re stanning a billionaire as a proxy for yourself. You won’t challenge the hierarchy, because it would require accepting people you feel superior to as _equals_, and that’s scary.
So you agree that Musk came from massive wealth.
Good. Glad you’re all caught up.
Who did he hire to create Zip2?
She’s never laid claim to being the wisest person on the planet. And she has a very warped cultural background from a human perspective.
Her definition of mind-control is different from yours.
Pretty normal given that she comes from an alien culture that dabbles in magic.
Dabs can at a whim, influence ANYONE she wants with her voice, just like DeCollet did during the Tamatha story line. It’s how succubi “hunt” so it was a simple thing for her to do that with Max’s glamor collar. it wasn’t until Max used the collar, that she began to think about it…
I mean, you can also exert a mental influence with similar/equivalent effect on people’s psyche which they are (most likely) not aware of and never agreed to by, say: selecting your clothes carefully, changing your posture, talking with the right tone of voice, wearing the right perfume, etc.
While you could still describe Dabbler’s effect as “unnatural”, at least, that is: A) Not really an argument on its own, something not being natural doesn’t really tell you much about it, and B) also something you could reasonably argue several of the previous options are (clothes aren’t ‘natural’, neither is perfume, or even language).
More, the effect Dabbler is describing is something she just figured out regarding the party choker that was used as a base, so this is like Dabbler putting a relaxing alien pineapple juice in the punch, knowing it will reduce anxiety, and not knowing it would interact with something else in there to make alcohol.
I’m reminded of Breeze’s explanation of Soothing in Mistborn. Soothing is a power in that setting that allows the user to selectively suppress others’ emotions. A lot of people think of it as a form of mind control, but he makes the argument that it’s really not that different from the kind of mundane social manipulations people do all the time (including making some of the same comparisons you did here).
As for Dabbler, don’t forget she’s descended from an engineered race that started out as sapient sex toys, and that she literally has to be a slave and have regular sex with her master to survive. It’s an uphill battle for her to get a more humane idea of things like consent. Personally, I think a Feeble Aura of Xanax would probably be alright from a moral perspective (comparable to wearing an alluring perfume or flattering clothing), the issue here is that a) she didn’t inform Max the collar had such an enchantment on it and b) she failed to account for how said enchantment would interact with Max’s unearthly beauty.
Nope, not valid. You can do all those things and still turn off people who aren’t attracted to you or the particular combination of things you are trying.
The choker works on everyone and everything, and even if you tell them what it is doing, it still works on them. If you tell people you are doing something just to attract them and manipulate them, especially women, it could totally turn them off. The choker might make them decide against it, but the effect is there and there’s nothing they can do to stop it.
They don’t even have to SEE her, although the compounding with her beauty does enhance it. She could just walk by behind them and they are going to be turned on by her, they’ve no choice in the matter.
Artificially forcing someone’s thoughts and emotions in a certain direction, passive or otherwise, is mind control by any manner you care to name.
> Artificially forcing someone’s thoughts and emotions in a certain direction, passive or otherwise, is mind control by any manner you care to name.
That covers clothing choice and perfume.
Or hell, even just “choosing to bathe” in some circles.
“Mind control” is obviously a sliding scale, and where you draw the line in the questionable zone is an individual choice.
By Dabbler’s own admission, the effect is comparable to drugging someone without their knowledge, and therefore without their consent.
That is a _big_ difference from “clothing & perfume.”
Not arguing that she should have told Max about this extra effect. And she *really* needs to pick up the phone to her *right now* and open with “I fucked up.”
But some people’s definitions of mind control here are seriously broad, and that’s not helping the discussion.
No.
This Effect (and yes, I’m using the pretentious M:tA language now) exercises the equivalent of a drug on the subjects. It is a _clear_ violation of affirmative consent. If I were have an NPC pull a stunt like this in a Mage game, I’d be obliged to check my player content consent sheets first to make sure nobody was going to be upset by anything even vaguely like a Rohypnol case.
First off, Succubi violate consent all the time. (See Decollete and the twins from the club)
Second, The Veil as a general rule makes consent impossible in a whole heap of situations.
Third: As someone else said, there’s a definite sliding scale of “mind control” from “wears sexy perfume” (current, real-life perfume has actual chemical effects on the brain that change how you respond to things) through to the dark end that I’m not going to give examples of. And situational factors will determine exactly where the line is.
Is this over the line? Probably less than some of the more exotic Twilight Council members would be if they were drinking here. Note that that’s not a “no.” Xuriel should absolutely have told Max about this feature, and included an off switch for it. And we can be pretty sure that Max would keep it turned off.
I’m kinda curious how you feel about a post-op trans person not disclosing that to their sexual partners. Because people make the argument that that’s a violation of consent (I vehemently disagree with that, btw. Pre-op trans people should disclose before clothes come off for a variety of reasons, but consent isn’t one of them).
“Xuriel should absolutely have told Max about this feature”
I read the above as Xuriel not even realizing this might be a possibility until now. Still bad but not necessarily something she could have thought to tell Maxima about at the party.
Ps i dont think there has ever been a consent-based lawsuit on selling perfume laced with strong pheremones (which would be a comparable scenario imho) but I will do some quick research tonight. If there hasnt it would probably be because there is no scientific guarantee on its efficacy.
I just re-read the comic and… now I agree with you actually. The second panel with Dabbler implies that she DID add something to the choker without telling anyone, although she did not expect it to be THIS effective because she did not take into account any side effects of ‘Maxima’s already near-unearthly beauty’ when combined with the collar’s natural glamour and the aura she added to it.
I read it the same, she slipped in a AoE that drugs everyone around Max, not Max herself, and is just now realizing that the result is a lot more powerful than she intended.
Yes, she simply meant to boost the confidence of those Maxi might encounter, just enough so they would overcome Maxi’s Aura of Terror (or whatever Aura she has naturally going on) and talk to her
She never intended what has happened to happen
The one thing you are glossing over here is that things like clothing choice, or perfume are subjective. Some people are going to like your clothes or smell and some won’t. It’s based on what the onlooker/smeller likes. This is a MAJOR difference because it bypasses the onlooker’s thoughts and opinions and just makes them attracted to Max. Clothing and perfume don’t do that.
I am curious as to your logic here. How would you apply that to other situations in which someone’s consent might changed based on information about their partner, such as fertility, disease, species, identity? I would be tempted to say that if someone’s consent is dependent on a false belief, then their consent has been violated. People consent to an idea, and if reality doesn’t match that idea, then they haven’t consented to what’s actually happening.
> I would be tempted to say that if someone’s consent is dependent on a false belief, then their consent has been violated.
That’s an impossible standard to hold anyone to.
Mostly because you can’t know what beliefs they hold about you. Never mind proving any of them.
The way out of that is to get into “your own reasonable belief about their beliefs”, which heads down the “what’s culturally accepted” rabbit-hole. Which justifies chattel slavery.
That’s what makes consent so tricky though! It depends entirely on something happening inside someone else’s head that we don’t have direct access to. We have no way of knowing for sure if someone else is actually consenting, or what they’re consenting to, other than what they communicate to us.
How would you categorize lying to someone that you’re sterile, and clean of any STDs, in order to convince them that it is safe to have unprotected sex with you? Or someone disguising themselves as your partner?
If you can reasonably guess that someone’s consent might depend on certain information, and you withhold that information from them in order to have them consent, what is that? It certainly doesn’t seem moral, whatever you call it.
But what is reasonable depends on social norms.
In some cultures, hugging someone you’ve just met is considered reasonable. In others it’s considered a massive violation of personal boundaries. Hell, in some cultures a kiss is the equivilent of shaking someone’s hand in the USA (Looking at you, Spain)
If you’re at a meeting and someone offers you a drink, what do you expect to be in it? If it’s in a glass tumbler instead of a plastic cup how does that expectation change?
How is a hand on the shoulder different from a hand on the ass?
Advertisements are scientifically designed to trigger specific responses in the brain. Never mind all the stuff religions do.
You can’t depend on culture either, because someone may not conform completely to the culture. So it’s all a big guessing game. Which is why the only respectful, moral thing to do is err on the side of caution and communicate.
My point is that there’s a whole lot of communication and implied consent that we don’t do, because our culture assumes it.
So someone from a different culture wouldn’t have all those cues, and wouldn’t have consented to all the general stuff that we have never thought about consenting to.
I’m guessing it wasn’t clear, but my whole line of questioning here was directed at your statement that a post-op trans person failing to disclose their nature to a sexual partner was not a violation of consent. To me, that’s pretty clearly immoral, and probably a violation of consent, for the reasons I’ve outlined. I’m curious as to your reasoning otherwise.
A post-op trans person has no higher risk than anyone else for anything to do with sex.
Private medical history is private, unless it’s something like having an STI.
Or do you think I need to tell my sexual partners that I have had my appendix out, and that not doing so violates their consent?
You don’t get to decide other people’s preferences for them. That’s what consent is all about. You don’t get to decide what sex acts they participate in, what traits they want or don’t want in a partner. You don’t get to decide what would make them feel sexually violated. If you intentionally withhold information that they would use to make a determination about whether or not to have sex, then you have deceived and manipulated them, and have not actually gotten their consent.
You may think other people shouldn’t care about whether or not someone is a post-op trans person, but you don’t get to decide whether or not they do.
Right, so you think someone who had their appendix out needs to tell their sexual partners that or they have violated their consent. Because they might care about having sex with people without appendixes.
Or women who don’t have wombs anymore. Or men who have had the snip. Or people who visited cuba once, or goes on parades carrying a swastika at weekends, or…
—
Trans people’s genetalia is indestinguishable from cis people’s genetalia without cutting it open and looking inside it. And even then you might not notice. The surgeries have gotten that good *already*, and are only going to get better with time.
Seriosly, for trans women, we’re at Culture-grade apart from fertility. Trans men are a couple of steps behind that. (And, for the record, that’s 90%+ just hormone replacement outside of genetalia. 100% if you get on blockers early enough)
For a post-op trans person, them being trans is not relevent to anything to do with sex (or much of anything at all, really. It will very rarely come up even in medical situations beyond “I can’t have kids” or “I don’t have gonads”, both of which have a whole heap of more common reasons).
So why do you care?
I find it a little funny that you keep bringing up appendectomy as if it were an obviously absurd example, because I actually find surgery extremely distressing, and I don’t know if I could relax or enjoy sex with someone who I knew had significant surgery of any kind. I myself would rather die than experience invasive surgery, because I’d never stop screaming.
But I realize my condition is extremely rare, probably even more rare than trans people. And so the onus would be on me to ask potential sexual partners for that kind of detail. I don’t know what percentage of the population would find sex with a post-op trans person revolting, so maybe we’re culturally already at the point where there’s no obligation to proactively disclose that information. But if someone asked or made their feelings on the matter clear, prior to engaging in sexual intercourse, and you deceive them? That seems pretty clearly immoral and a violation of consent to me.
> I don’t know if I could relax or enjoy sex with someone who I knew had significant surgery of any kind. I myself would rather die than experience invasive surgery, because I’d never stop screaming.
That’s incredably strange. I assume you’re recieving therapy for it? (I also assume you’ve not been circumsised)
> But if someone asked or made their feelings on the matter clear, prior to engaging in sexual intercourse, and you deceive them?
If they even ask, the overwhelming majority of trans people will leave immediately without answering, so they don’t get murdered.
> I don’t know what percentage of the population would find sex with a post-op trans person revolting,
If they didn’t know they were trans, then whatever the percentage is that finds sex with cis people revolting. If they do know they’re trans, you can add everyone who’s right-wing politically to the pile, along with surgophiles (sp?) like yourself.
Fear of surgery is apparently called ‘tomophobia’, which basically translates to “fear of cutting”, which seems accurately descriptive. As with many other issues, I waver between contemplating seeking therapy and determining it’s either pointless or unnecessary. Some issues that might benefit from therapy themselves make seeking therapy more difficult. All my attempts at therapy have failed at one stage or another.
Regardless, you have once again dodged the questions of morality and consent. We all live in our own cultural contexts that distort our perceptions of what’s normal or common, but as I think you’ve implied, that’s not really relevant to abstract moral questions.
Not dodging anything.
Trans men are men, trans women are women.
I think you are projecting your own issues here.
If you ignore the trans-hate-cult, someone being post-op transgender matters less than having had your appendix out.
Unless you have an ideological opposition to birth control and want every sexual encounter to result in a baby, but then you’re probably in the trans-hate-cult anyway (that euler diagram is basically a circle).
Seriously, trans genital surgeries are so good that medical specialists can’t tell most of the time. So why does it matter?
I am uncomfortable in a human body, but I don’t seem to experience this sense of gender that most people seem to have. So while I can sympathize with trans people, I don’t think I can actually comprehend gender, any more than someone born blind could understand sight. But I assume other people have these experiences, because they claim to. To some people, it matters. I don’t have to understand why, and can’t invalidate their experiences.
So I can’t explain why someone else would be opposed to sex with a post-op trans person — and I don’t have to know the reason myself to respect their right to have a preference, even if it’s something I cannot comprehend. Even if my own experiences suggest to me that they’re just delusional, that what they claim to experience doesn’t exist. It doesn’t matter. Other people have the right to their own delusions, when it comes to their own bodies.
So, simple question: does engaging in sexual intercourse while knowingly deceiving the other person violate their consent?
> I don’t seem to experience this sense of gender that most people seem to have.
So you’re agender? That’s ok.
> So I can’t explain why someone else would be opposed to sex with a post-op trans person
I can, and it’s purely irrational hatred.
> So, simple question: does engaging in sexual intercourse while knowingly deceiving the other person violate their consent?
You keep implying that a post-op trans person is being deceptive by not sharing that specific piece of their private medical history.
So I go back to the appendectomy example. Is someone being deceptive by engaging in sexual intercourse without letting the other people involved know that they’ve had their appendix out?
Or how about we go closer to the act. Does having had a boob job matter?
To elaborate a bit, I see both sides of the gender debate as making the same underlying claim: that gender is an invisible, internal property independent of a person’s current physical body — that hormones and surgery cannot change it.
Where the viewpoints diverge is that the trans side claims that gender may not match their birth sex, while the other side claims that it always does.
The trans side seems more plausible to me for a variety of reasons, including my own body dysphoria. But I cannot fundamentally comprehend or evaluate the claim that both sides have in common, because I do not experience it: that gender fundamentally exists as an inherent property, rather than just a social construction.
Why should I accept one person’s claim to invisible properties but not another’s, particularly when they rely on the same root claim? Both sides insist that ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are important, meaningful categories, that they should have the right to define. Why should I respect one person’s right to their definitions, but not another’s?
I tried to make my question clear with “knowingly deceiving”, but to elaborate: if you know that something matters to the other person, that it will affect their decision whether or not to have sex with you, and you intentionally mislead them, either through omission or an outright lie, is that immoral? Does that violate their consent? It doesn’t matter what the property is, whether it’s surgical history, religion, identity, whatever. I am purely asking whether intentional deception violates consent, or if you believe it is immoral but does not violate consent, or isn’t immoral at all.
> I see both sides of the gender debate as making the same underlying claim: that gender is an invisible, internal property independent of a person’s current physical body
You’ve fallen for some trans-hate talking points here.
Gender is a social construct.
So are money, religion and nations.
> Why should I accept one person’s claim to invisible properties but not another’s,
I dunno, would you accept someone’s claim that they are a Republican?
One of the points I’ve been reading is that this aura could be thought of as similar to perfume or smile or etc. Nobody asks for consent to expose you to perfume or a smile, and those things definitely do have an effect. So why are those not bad, while the auras and drugs clearly are?
It is because you are consciously aware of the perfume/smile/etc; those things are not sneaky at all. For comparison, instead of slipping a xanax into your drink, if somebody at a party offered it to you up front, all the evil suddenly disappears; you choose what you want. It is not the affect that is evil, it is the sneakiness in the delivery.
So, that aura is analogous to slipping something into everyone else’s drinks – it is affecting people without their awareness of it – sneaky and evil. (Of course, Dabs intended it to be only very mildly sneaky and evil.)
The choker itself is more like cosmetics: somewhat deceptive, but everyone is well aware that such things exist and are in common use – not really very sneaky at all. I guess you could argue that the choker goes farther than cosmetics and is not well known, and I’d buy that argument, somewhat. If it affected her appearance more than just coloring, it would be more problematic.
I agree with pretty much every part of this excellent post (and you wrote it out much better than I’ve tried to elsewhere), so I’m just going to give you a +1 internet. :)
As I specifically pointed out in my post, if you can’t see Max, if you are revolted by her coloring choices, and happen to be allergic to the perfume, there’s no ‘mind control’, and the effect can work AGAINST her. “WHAT IS THAT STENCH?” etc, she’s a fashion travesty, etc.
The choker removes all voluntary choice from the matter. That’s CONTROL. You have no choice in the matter.
But the enchantment doesn’t force people to be attracted to Max, it just reduces their social anxiety. Max’s appearance is what’s making people attracted to her; the choker just means they’re less affected by fear of rejection/judgement/whatever. Or at least that’s how it was supposed to work; Dabbler has indicated that it may be having a much stronger (and more-targeted) effect than it was supposed to, which is certainly a problem and something she should have tested for. Also should have talked to Max about it first; Max probably would have required that enchantment be left off, of course, but it should have been something she chose.
Yes, this ^
The choker spell doesn’t make people become attracted to Maxi (they already are, just from her being who she is), it simply increases their confidence greater than the fear of rejection
At no point has any one gotten angry or violent at being shot down, they have calmly accepted the rejection and let the next person have a shot
I am just waiting for tall, dark, and totally-not-a-super-intellegence to show up
That would be a serious problem, and Max would go nuclear. There’s no way that Deux would be in Texas and run into her accidentally at a bar, which would mean he had her bugged, which would mean she needed to literally rip his head off.
I doubt Deus is THAT dumb, if he had any brains at all doing that would wreck any chances he had with her. If it was me, I’d wait in line, when I got there I’d calmly say hi, then turn around and yell at the room “She’s NOT looking to hook up! Get it in you tiny brains and leave her alone!” then I’d smile to her and chase off the line and go sit back down and wait…
Sooner or later she’d come up to thank me and so on… And if she didn’t at least I quieted the place down so I could at least enjoy my evening too.
I wonder what kind of betting pool they have going on in the base. Max getting into a bar fight seems to obvious. Maybe betting on the level of emergency response. Police, Fire fighters, ambulance, sway, national guard, Arkswat.
Huh, I thought it was suggested somewhere Max was bi. Maybe I was thinking of Peggy and her ‘find something to dislike about both genders’ comment.
Dabbler better be able to remove that aura from the choker before Max notices, because if this keeps happening every time she goes out with it the choker will get buried deep down some drawer and never used again in the best of outcomes. Another outcome is Max burning down all the bars, with Dabbler inside.
No no, Peggy is bi, not Maxima. They havent really said all that much about Maxima’s preferences except she does think Deus is handsome and in REALLY good shape
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-837-wheel-of-girlfriend/
and DaveB said the only thing really that she doesnt find attractive about him is the arrogance/bragging thing. And also that he was already sleeping with Harem.
She hasnt ever said anything about finding any other women attractive though, and was the only one in the entire room who was NOT attracted to Dabbler when she had her glamour up to 11 (maybe anger bypasses the glamour effect) so it’s …. much less likely that she’s bi, i’d guess.
Oh and Harem is at least bi-curious (or bi, I dont remember where I saw that at the moment but might have been when Dabbler hit on her)
Just tell them, all at once, “I have no interest in ‘ANYTHING’ here except my drinks!”
The fact that she hasn’t suggests it isn’t true.
I think there might also be the fact that Dabbler isn’t with Max tonight adding to the effect. After all, in her own words, Dabbler never dials it any lower than a ’10’ anyway & she just naturally sucks up (heh) most of the attention away from the other gals.
But still, Dabbler hasn’t done any favors for Max because she normally draws too much of the kind of attention she doesn’t want anyway. Let’s face it, even a (self-professed) villain shows some level of extremist reaction to Max even when she’s nowhere near him (back on page #100).
In essence, Dabbler pushed “help” on Max where it wasn’t wanted & not needed, all without Max’s knowledge or consent. I mean, c’mon Dabs, you know how much Max harps on about having consent even though you personally aren’t familiar with anyone who would deny their consent to YOU; just because you’re not used to the idea…
Something either going to hideously backfire or amusingly backfire.
Or both .
Is it me or is Dabbler breaking the 4th Wall or talking to someone?!?
Yes I think she is 4th wall breaking to us, the readers. :)
She really broke the bottom wall to get up into the regular comic.
Lol
Dabbler’s self-serving explanation aside, I still don’t see Max’s endgame to this exercise. Other than the orderly line forming to hit on Maxi, there is pretty much nothing occurring at this bar that is the slightest bit unexpected, even the straight girl coming on to her (booze will do that).
I get the humor part of the story, but what I don’t understand is Max’s motivation for putting herself into an obvious situation that she clearly isn’t enjoying.
She thought that with the choker making her look like a normal, if extremely attractive, person she would be able to enjoy the bar scene like a regular person.
Having people come on to her was expected, having almost everyone in the bar line up to make a pass was outside expectations.
There were also hints she was open to maybe do some flirting, but I can imagine in the current scene, even if there was a guy with a good conversation starter in there, it would be too awkward to actually pick someone.
Again: she wanted to get a drink, amongst ‘normal’ people, and to test out the Disguisachoker
Who says Max is not a normal woman under that gold?
Being a giant golden superheroine just makes it rather hard to have normal, adult relations. Especially without paparazzi following her.
Max is trying something new in order to try getting out of her shell.
That’s her entire motivation: “Go outside and touch grass.”
I don’t think that MAX knew what her end game was here.
I agree with this, though I do think her basic desire was ‘do something normal for a change since my transformation robbed me of that ability.’ She was so focused on and desperate for just that goal that she might have not thought anything through beyond it. She did not consider that cars are so much slower then she us to the point of being interminable for her. She did not consider that a singles bar is for more then just drinking. She just wanted a bit of normalcy for one night.
holy stars, there is a line now… pretty sure Max is going to find out something is off one way or another
The line started last page, which is what prompted Knotted-panties to try and strong-arm Maxi (either out the door or into someone elses pants)
I am so exhuasted with Dabblers lack of respect for consent. It’s not funny, it’s not okay, and the lack of appropriate consequences for her actions makes it worse.
No one is being forced to do anything they wouldn’t normally do
So, the manufacturer’s of perfume (female and male) should be forced to stop production before they are ‘forcing’ people to be attracted to another person because they smell nice? Have you seen the claims made by the ads? That is literally what they are hoping will happen if you use their product
Axe Body Spray! :)
My son uses that, to me it smells like an old wet sock!
You got lucky. When my sons wore that crap in the 90s and 2000s I thought it was an insecticide.
I guess the women in the commercials are really turned on by old wet socks. Rowr!
Heheheheh… You should of seen his face when I asked if any women had stuck to him yet with their vag’s… LOL!!!
He’s a bit socially awkward, so bad advice never helped, and like most kids, Mom and Dad couldn’t possibly understand… yeah, right…
whenever I see Axe body spray, i imagine a dwarf spritzing themselves, then running into battle, the spray doing all the attacking
“You have my sword”
“And my bow!”
“And my Axe!”
*spray*
“Gimli stop spraying the hobbits with that!”
“But their feet smell bad!”
” I’m sure your nose has smelled worse.”
” my nose doesn’t… I see what you did there”
The way the choker is being described DOES sound a little like Maxima has, without even realizing it since she has no idea about what the choker is actually doing, slipped the equivalent of spanish fly into everyone’s drink.
Perfume doesn’t directly interfere with people’s free will, Guest. Dabbler’s gadget violates affirmative consent, period.
I realize that might be a difficult concept to get your head around, but you really need to try.
No one is being forced to approach, they are choosing to do so
All Dabbles’ aura is doing, is giving people around her the confidence to approach her where without it they would just be staring at her all night
I think what Bharda is saying (accurately btw) is that the aura put on the choker ‘tinkers’ with a person’s free will in that it makes them more compliant or wiling to do things they might otherwise NOT do because of what Dabbler considers ‘social anxiety.’ Which is still removing their consent, since they did not AGREE to this ‘messing’ with their social anxiety. It makes any consent they do have less of actual consent, much in the way that if you are given spanish fly or have alcohol slipped into your drink, your behavior might be altered from what it normally is without you agreeing to that change (unlike if you actively order a drink for the express purpose of getting over your inhibitions).
Did you consent to smell the perfume someone is wearing who just walked past? The scent that caused you to be distracted and walk into a post (or into traffic)?
You are focused on the wrong area of consent. Its not about consent to smell sonething or even consent to look at someone. The consent Bharda is referring to is the consent to choose whether or not to approach a person. It is more than just a pleasing scent or enhancing ones attractiveness. Dabbler explained it as giving everyone some side-effects-free xanax. If the perfume was laced with some sort of aerisol based narcotic like xanax which made me do something that I otherwise would not do, then it has interfered with my free will just as if someone had spiked my drink to make me more compliant. Or if it otherwise altered my brain chemistry ARTIFICIALLY (rather than naturally – a pleasing scent, attractive makeup, offering me a drink when I know what I am drinking, etc). So yes it would be interfering with my ability to give consent freely.
I will give more examples tomorrow when I am on my computer instead of my phone (I hate virtual keyboards – so many spelling errors I need to correct on it makes the post take forever).
Okay here’s another good example.
Have you watched The Orville? The reason that Kelly and Ed got divorced was she slept with a Retepsian called Darulio (played by Rob Lowe) Ed caught her in the act of the affair and was justifiably upset because of it, hence the divorce. However, the problem (which neither Ed or Kelly knew about) is Darulio’s species is from a species that exudes POWERFUL pheremones which spark romantic desire on others upon skin-to-skin contact, when they’re in heat. Darulio’s species also looks at sex the way humans might look at handshakes – there’s absolutely no stigma for them – it’s just ‘hey look everyone gets to do something fun that feels good.’
When Ed and Kelly find out about this, Kelly asks if he was in heat when she had the affair with him – to which he just says ‘maybe.’ If he WAS in heat and exuding the pheremone, then it violated her ability to consent to the sex in the first place.
This seems a LOT like the problem with succubi. They have a very casual view of sex without any sort of emotional baggage attached to it. Their glamour is sort of similar to the Retepsian pheremone when their beholder spell is on (which seems very similar to what ths choker does but on a slightly more extreme and immediate scale). And it has the same problem for people who are going to be susceptible to it – it is violating their ability to consent under their own free will. Any consent they have as a result is not because they actually DECIDED it – it’s because they’ve essentially been drugged into offering sex/trying to get sex in the first place without their knowledge of being psysiologically manipulated by artificial means. The ‘without their knowledge’ part is very important. If you offer someone a drink or a xanax or whatever and tell them it will help them ‘loosen up’ then that’s different than doing it without them noticing. Affirmative consent requires being informed of stuff like that.
I get the distinct impression this is Dave doing a retcon to try to explain him flopping on writing this scene.
This would be true if she were human, but she isn’t. She is useful to Archon and generally an entertaining character but she is an alien and in her own fashion, a predator.
Yes it’s funny, and this isn’t a lack of respect for consent. Surprisingly, no males were harmed in the making of this train wreck. They each unaccountably got up the courage to take a shot, to do something they might have dreamed about but never expected, went down in flames, and, surprisingly, are okay with it.
Nobody was harmed or did anything they didn’t actually *want* to do.
Yes, this ^
It’s comic relief, not a brutal rape scene. Grow up.
I kind of hope that Max gives Dabbler a thorough spanking for this. Dabbler basicity just committed a act of Terrorism by forcing a psychotropic effect on a bunch of civilians. She should at least be assigned a Arc-Light/Dark prude baby sitter with a anti-succubus spray bottle until she learns what the word consent means.
Sooo … you propose killing her by hunger?
I wonder if no matter where he is Math’s nose didn’t start spontaneously start bleeding when that girl tried hitting on Maxima.
Dang it Dabbler… What exactly did you do?!
Just… have a damn drink with her: you know nothing is gonna happen, and she knows nothing is gonna happen, and it will let Miss Knotted-panties get the attention she craves
Pick up lines are mostly dumbass. Me in my younger daze I did SF heroine tags. Depending on the appearance, I’d say something to the effect of, “Wow, you remind me of Ripley.” She replies “What?” Me, “You know, Ripley from Alien.” Her, “Oh yeah, you think so?” Me, “A bit. You know Weaver was such a badass in that movie.” And the conversation would proceed from there or not. Or, Honor Harrington, Morgaine, Galadriel, etc. That said, I rarely did the meat market bar thing. But, in casual outings with friends and meeting new people I’d occasionally use that as a compliment.
I love pickup lines actually. I think the quality of the pickup line shows if a person is witty or cringy. Plus some are genuinely funny and sense of humor is important in an initial connection with someone – hence why I really wish the ones I ever receive were good ones.
For me, a simple opening was simply picking something about her outfit that looked good and complimenting it. Ie something she chose, not something she “is” or any innate characteristic. Works with guys, too. It’s a great conversation starter with strangers if you don’t mean anything by it.
In this context, I’d go with “hey, that looks like a really dark beer, I like those, which is it and would you recommend that one?”
If it leads to more conversation, great, if not, I’m still happy with the beer review.
I guess dabbler tried to apply a 1.1 multiplier.
But she was accidentally thinking European, where that is written as 1,1 (, is the decimal seperator).
So it accidentally mapped to 1,100 in US format.
And cases like these are why we have strong typisation.
“But this one goes to 11.”
Has anyone started up a betting pool yet?
This comic makes me very uncomfortable.
Wow- it just occurs to me that, arguably, the guys really don’t have a lot of agency here after all.
They never did, and still don’t. The “line” of waiting guys is cartoon-land, though. Most guys would watch from a distance and only approach solo intermittently, occasionally as a pair or trio. Call it the collar’s influence.
Okay, I have my approach for Max.
A wide grin.
“I’ll bet I can beat you at darts.”
She reacts however she reacts. Obviously, she knows different, but at least I’m not blowing my chance on dumb cheese.
Probably not, but let’s say she goes for it. Either the place has a dartboard, or not.
Max “There’s no dartboard.”
Smoother Me: “I know a place that has one. And it gets you out of that line.”
So you go someplace, or let’s say that bar DOES have a dart board.
***I*** go first. I’m average at darts. I get what I get.
Handing over the darts, I murmur, “I’m going to be very disappointed if you don’t get three bullseyes.”
She’s not going to throw the game, so she wins, either by some or by a mile. Probably three bullseyes.
Max “You lose”.
Smoother Me: “Yeah, I’m lousy at darts. But it got you out of that conveyer belt of cheese. Wanna go do something fun?”
Max: “Like what?”
Smoother Me: “Climb a tree? Rob a bookstore? Carve our names under the bleachers at a high school? Or… there’s always dancing. You’re not really dressed for chess or D&D.”
With any luck, I get her to smile, and we have a nice evening doing nothing in particular. I go home without her number, but she remembers my name.
Well sure, it’s possible for magic spells to have memory leaks. Just ask MCU Spider-Man.
This might actually explain why a LOT of people have been acting inappropriately … extreme – the cop fixating on a porn star name after getting a look at Maxima’s cleavage; the line of men who WILL focus only on Maxima and no one else until she picks someone or leaves; Skal Gal deciding to ‘switch teams’ in this particular case much like how Jabberwokky acted with Dabbler after the kiss; the bartender becoming obsessed with thinking Maxima and purple dress lady or Skal Gal will kiss; purple dress lady’s overly forward jealousy and need to get the competition who no other woman has any chance against in attracting a guy to leave or pick someone… theyre all acting like their emotional responses have been dialed up to 11. Someone (almost everyone in that bar) who is wanting to pick up a girl will obsess about picking up Maxima to the exclusion of all others. Someone who thinks maxima is attractive but is hetero will be very bi-curious. Someone who is adversarial and likely to tell give someone a piece of their mind or is insecure will confront her very tactlessly (including tryibg to push her towards the door and cutting her off even at the parts where Maxima is agreeing a bit about her ‘aura of malevolence.’ The bartender who is getting obsessed with the prospect of seeing Maxima kiss another woman…
Couple that with how Maxima did have an entrance guaranteed to get everone’s attention and that she is already insanely hot with a ‘perfect’ fitness model-esque body …
Good call, I’d totally overlooked this affecting the cop.
I don’t think it’s the bartender rooting for the other team though (since he should still be behind the bar), just someone with a similar haircut.
I assumed it’s the bartender MAINLY because of the haircut and beard. :)
Would this count at all as another Dabbler’s science corner btw?
I think Max and Dabbler have both been cornered by science this evening.
Ha ha and ha. :)
Man it really takes maxima by herself to really make me realize she really needs one of the better characters to help her scenes.
Goddamnit Dabbler.
Dabbler made Skal Gal a little bi-curious, but if Maxima finds out she’s going to be a little bi-furious.
sounds like to me, the collar is SUSPOSE to just get people to open up. be less intimidated by her stature, and physique as if they knew Max for a while, or were a bit drunk, BUT as mentioned, it has worked FAR too well due to it being multiplied by another aspect, so what should have been say a 20% higher chance of someone approaching her to try and hit it off has become a 200%, and growing due to a feedback loop within the spells programming
And, of course, if Dabbler wants to prevaricate to avoid trouble, she can suggest that the intent was more of a confusion effect, making people more likely to accept Maxima as completely normal. Kind of like how some Harry Potter fanfiction employs some very interesting uses for the Confundus charm.
If the effect really is compounding due to a memory leak, Max needs to get out of there really fast. She’s been there <5 minutes and already the entire group is acting way outside norms. In another 5 minutes they'll abandon queueing and start brawling.
If I were single I’d try my luck, aura or not. I know I’d have no luck though. I’ve got a face that looks like I lost a fight with a boat propeller. Still nothing to lose and even just interesting conversation would be a gain. I think my opening line would be, “Hi, want to help me piss off every guy in here all at once?” Sone people can’t resist the temptation to cause a little trouble.
Maxima: Sorry, I’m straight. :|
Girl hitting om Maxima: So’s spaghetti until it gets wet. ;)
Excellent comeback.
Spaghetti’s straight until it gets wet too.
Did Drabble go all 4th wall breaking meta on the comic or what ? Ha, now that is a fun way to explore how Maxima handles a night out.
It occurs to me that Dabbler’s the only one who has ever actually initiated a 4th wall break successfully with a few of her Dabbler’s Science Corners and now this. I know Sydney’s tried a couple of times but it didnt succeed. :)
that’s because the 4rth wall is armored against genre savvy. also, because of her magic Dabbler sees the world more fully.
Max is in the same situation my wife had to deal with, jealous girls in high school bulling her just because she developed early, guys hitting on her non-stop, even her step-brother. She fell in love with me because it was easy to understand her problems being beautiful and respecting her enough to NOT try to get her into my bed. At first she thought I was gay (LOL) then later was clued in and we started to write back and forth for the months while I was learning how to walk etc (she was from Kentucky) until I asked her if she wanted to move in with me… Didn’t reply she just hopped on a bus and showed up! I was recovering from my car accident and my dating scene completely dried up, “I might hurt you!” was the excuse. Granted I lost 1/3 of my muscle mass during that time…