Grrl Power #1151 – Vanta black-ops
I actually have no doubt that if you added a bunch of shit to chess, nearly every chess master would have a crying fit about it. At the time I was working on the page I couldn’t think of a better way to liken spycraft tactics nerds getting paid to think about superpowers being added to the mix. There has to be a few chess masters who would be interested in extending chess to a reasonable degree… well, maybe not chess masters, but chess pretty-gooders. Most chess masters’ entire identities probably revolve around being good at chess and wouldn’t want to risk not being able to adapt to new rules. But there have to be people out there that have come up with extended chess rules that involve replacing one of the pawns at random with a Doctor Octopus action figure and he can 8 different directions at once but then he goes to whatever the Marvel equivalent of Arkham Asylum is for the next 12 rounds. Whatever it is, I know it’s not called Markham Asylum but I really wish it was.
I’m not quite sure why Max is hefting her drink in that last panel. I think I had the planning scene from Shaun of the Dead in my head when I drew it. Weirdly, while the scene influenced my drawing, it took me a solid 5 minutes to remember where I had seen that. I was like, a guy holds up a drink and winks, and… I think… he does it several times… was it… Simon Pegg? Then it still took me several minutes to recall the movie and scene. The way my brain works is like a hard drive that has a lot of inertia and it takes forever to spin up.
BTW, the panel Max is reporting to there has read all the reports that get sent up the chain, and they academically know that Sydney can go to Fracture Station, but sometimes when you need a tiny bit of gold and your friend is planning to break into Fort Knox, you have to elbow him and hold up a shot of Goldschläger. Of course, getting to the station is just one of several hurdles. A humongous hurdle without Sydney and her orbs, but once you’re there, you have to worry about currency, getting mugged by aliens, not betting it all on Flib-Snarb 17, or getting distracted by alien prostitutes/sex-a-roids.
The April vote incentive is up! As promised, it’s a Sydney pinup. Not airplane bathroom selfies, but hopefully her cuteness will satisfy.
Variant outfits and lack thereof over at Patreon, as well as the semi-usual bonus incentive related comic.
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Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. Feel free to contribute as much as you like.
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The problems with normal people (or old farts spending dollars to penny pinch for stupid political reasons) trying to plan around superintelligent people is that they CAN’T.
The only way something like that works is by doing something so completely and stupidly unexpected that NO plan could’ve accounted for it.
The most dangerous opponent for a master fighter is a complete novice.
Sydney… you’re up.
Well, super intelligence is a huge boon, but by itself doesn’t make one all mighty. “Normals” can’t “outwit” super-intelligent in a long game but they still use “brute force” – as is, use advantage in raw (but well applied) powers to beat super-intelligent in a way they can easily see coming but can’t actually stop.
Of course, Deus have already got his hands on a lot of power by now, so applying any existing power advantage there would be more tricky. On the other hand, one superintelligence superpower might still be outclassed by a large collective of normals, paranormals and maybe computers… not sure about full collection of thinkers ARCHON could gather
Trouble is, any superintelligence worth anything will also have advisors and computers that they pay attention to.
Deus isn’t stupid or arrogant, he’s absolutely got advisors, one of which is probaly a 6-year-old child.
Oh, he’s probably got several kids with open hotlines to him. There’s actually a real life thing where scientists have set up ways for kids to ask questions. Not because they want to answer all the kids questions out of the goodness of their hearts, but kids ask questions that can be valuable lines of research that adults don’t even consider (because kids don’t have bias’ built up where as the main thing about being an adult is being a mountain of acquired bais’).
When Illy is mentioning the 6 year old child advisor, it’s because it’s one of the points on the Evil Overlord List.
12) One of my advisors will be an average six-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.
Also:
60) My six-year-old child advisor will also be asked to decipher any code I am thinking of using. If he breaks the code in under 30 seconds, it will not be used. Note: this also applies to passwords.
Pander has taste :*
And Deus has obviously read the evil overlord list, unlike the fools with the underground bunker.
“Pander has taste :*”
Aw thanks. I recognize the finer things in life when it comes to Tropes 101. :)
Illy didn’t say you had good taste :P
It’s implied by my admiration for Deus.
It was implied.
And Deus is very quickly becoming the real hero of this story.
Not to mention Deus has that geode still and might know more than he’s letting on about the source of Maxima’s powers (and might even have an idea of where the other half is). Also given that Deus seems to know how to ‘make’ supers (or he’s heavily implied that), he might also know how to remove superpowers as well.
If he knows how to manipulate the ‘superion field’ or even if he has some sort of inkling about this, he could possibly create things like ‘no-superpowers’ zones or de-superpower rays (like Lex Luthor did in that one episode of Justice League Unlimited to the Justice Lords Superman in the episode ‘A Better World, part 2’
https://youtu.be/FVwHixn-7l4?t=79
I think the implication isn’t that he knows how to manipulate the field but how to manipulate the human genome to act as an access key to activate superpowers. Which yes, if he figures that out next step is gene blockers that turn off powers, or figuring out what combination of genes may activate what powers. Which also seems to be what the Ascenders are doing *only in the blind surgeon kind of way where they do medical tests, get results, but don’t know the why they get those results…
so kind of like a crow pecking at buttons, it knows it if pecks that square shape on the wall then part of the wall will open up and it will get food. It has no clue what the mechanism is only that X action gets Y result.
Deus is kind of doing that but he’s trying to build his own buttons and put them against the wall.
(yeah comparison kind of falls apart there), unless we imagine the wall is a pressure board and Deus-crow figured that out so is using tools to push different parts of that wall to see what it does while the Ascenders are still pushing only the clearly marked buttons as it were…overly simplified and not really a good comparison…but comparing Crow to human and human to god like aliens if you treat them like they actually are that complex and not Star Trek giant guy in a toga isn’t exactly a 1 to 1 comparison only an approximation.
“I think the implication isn’t that he knows how to manipulate the field but how to manipulate the human genome to act as an access key to activate superpowers.”
I’m not sure what the difference is.
Also most of what he said at the meeting that Deus had with Maxima/Dabbler/etc implied that there was a way to manipulate the superion field (which he’s named) once he knew that it existed.
“Star Trek giant guy in a toga isn’t exactly a 1 to 1 comparison only an approximation.”
There are sadly more than one godlike guys in a toga on Star Trek. Which one? Apollo? Plato’s stepchildren? Algeron alien?
To explain it a little better as it may be a semantics issue.
using electromagnetism as an example as its the field humanity has the most complex interactions with. You can’t manipulate the field directly, however you can utilize its existing properties *interact with the field* to generate a force and then manipulate that force’s paths to desired outcomes.
Deeus and the Ascenders for comparison are at the point where they are discovering this field exists *which complicates things as it acts as a theoretical higher dimension *extra fields* that we don’t know how to interact with or whose interactions are indirect or don’t interact with the fields we are familiar with in a way that we can currently detect* (we still don’t know how gravity relates to the other known fields but it makes its presence known very openly).
In perspective what Deus and the Ascenders are doing is in relation to the electromagnetic field and forces is experimenting with building crank generators. They are figuring out which metals, at which densities, and which methods of moving between each other and different magnets at different strengths produce the most efficient or highest electrical output.
Deus does seem one step ahead where contemplating the light bulb may be on the horizon. But they are a long ways off from manipulating the force directions to build computers.
and even then you still technically aren’t manipulating the field its self (to manipulate implies making it do things it wouldn’t naturally do on its own), you are interacting with it, which yes to do so you manipulate physical objects into configurations they don’t normally form into *technology*, but again not the same thing as saying you are directly manipulating the quantum field.
If I may state the obvious, any fantasy description of a pointy eared violet haired violet eyed golden skinned female would almost certainly start with “High Elf Matriarch”.
SF “might” go to alien, but the aliens would be clearly stand ins for elves.
There’s also the ‘you can plan better than any one of us, but you can you plan better than all of us combined?’ Take advice, share best plans, improve them, etc.
Like playing with magnetic load stones and metals around it but not yet knowing how to artificially generate a magnetic field. Just at the point of knowing it exists and how to interact with it.
Which to be fair maybe that is what you meant. In physics it is different to say you can manipulate a quantum field vs intentionally interacting with it.
This posted in tbe the wrong place.
Unless the master fighter has trained against novices.
The old British rules for when someone could be called a “swordmaster” had some unexpected inclusions on the “Has to be able to defeat” list. Like complete untrained persons and drunkards. I guess they were included for good reason.
It was preambled with something like “The man whose claim to fame is that he is able to defeat all of his own students is not a swordmaster.” (Quoted from memory which is not a native English memory.)
In every sense, a “master” of anything is basically a teacher of any said field, not specifically that they are the only person that can do it. only a group of peers could decide that, and said mastery would be awarded IF they could prove it publicly in some predetermined test. Deus is a good example of that, if he would even bother with it. Students would call their teacher “master” only because to their eyes, that person is and only a group of masters would be able to judge that person otherwise. It’s like someone with a Masters degree, it doesn’t make them a master, it only states they can be a teacher, like when someone with a PhD is called a doctor of “blah blah” they can teach anyone that isn’t.
My teacher of martial arts was called a Master, he was close to Bruce Lee level (in my opinion) of ability, that did not make him a master to his peers unless he proved it to them.
You are right about the term Master in general. Britain had a society of swordmasters, or something like that. They had those rules about who could enter their exclusive club.
Yeah, I’m really good at lightest touch LARP combat, arguably amongst the best at dual wielding, operate at an advanced level with single stick, etc. Total noobs tend to be my kryptonite since my preferred fighting style is highly reactionary, built around blocking, feinting, and countering, it relies heavily on my ability to read my opponent’s stance and techniques to find gaps to exploit and to predict and manipulate their actions and responses. I developed this style because I’m used to fighting people with superior technical skill, it’s a style designed to beat people who are better than me by leveraging some weird quirks in how I move. Noobs don’t *have* a fighting style to read and it’s nearly impossible to predict what they are gonna do next when even *they* don’t know ahead of time. I call it the Musashi principle, since Miyamoto Musashi got started taking out swordmasters at like 7 because he combined the unpredictability of a noob with the dirty fighting of someone who hadn’t trained under the overly-honor bound system that was popular at the time.
The guy that I consider to be the best fighter I know wipes the floor with noobs consistently because he has been a game runner for over a decade and thus has had tons of experience taking on people with basically all skill levels and fighting styles.
As someone who once beat an internationally ranked chess master via the “I have no idea what I’m doing, so neither do you” method: can confirm. Problem is, it only works once.
One of the problems with early chess algorithms is that they didn’t always know how do handle mistakes or random moves with no real strategic purpose, or sometimes picked sub-optimal moves if a ‘best’ option wasn’t found. Most famously in the series between Kasparov and Deep Blue, wherein Kasparov got psyched out by a computer move later discovered to be a bug.
What do you think of Fischer’s Random Chess? – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_random_chess
Or, make a bunch of plans, and roll dice to select 2-3 to execute. Anyone smart enough to know what plans you’d come up with would also be able to predict which you’d choose, and now you have a plan, contingency plan, and backup plan that are not the anticipated plans thanks to randomness.
“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” – Mike Tyson
Looking forward to when the punches start getting thrown.
I’m sure that Deus also employs a six year old on his planning council, as per the Evil Overlord List, to go over his plans so that he won’t be punched in the mouth in the first place. :)
You only need a sufficient advantage, and a solid plan than leverages your advantage.
For example, resources: Any intermediate chess player can beat Stockfish if the engine starts without a queen.
Or knowledge: It doesn’t matter how smart you are, if you’re missing important information, that limits your ability to plan.
To be fair, Deus has both a variety of valuable resources and a hax source of information.
Unexpectedness seems less promising: If you’re intelligent enough, you can predict your opponent might attempt something unorthodox (assuming you know them well enough, again, information helps), then consider their options and prepare countermeasures.
The response to Deus, if they think he might become a threat, could easily be done now.
Send Max to talk to him again.
She grabs both his arms and pulls them off as she crashes him through the ceiling on her way to outer space.
I doubt he could think through the pain even if he momentarily survived. And even if he did, I doubt his responses include not being able to use his hands or arms plus not being able to breathe. Or instantaneous medical care that would replace immediate massive blood loss.
Even that attempt would set off a superhero arms race. Definitely world war 3, but with supers. Which there are treaties being made in comic, BY the US, to try to specifically prevent.
Also, assassinating someone who builds your cool toys not only kills the golden goose, it sets a terrible precedent for your other toy builders. Deus’s premature death is just about the worst possible outcome – he’s far more useful to US / human interests alive, whether he shares his toys and superion research or not.
Not to mention that destroying such a mind is unthinkably barbaric.
I am giving you one Get out of Ninja Assassination Free card for your brilliant post which tells people not to try to kill Deus. Non-Transferable. Use it wisely.
Use it?! That goes in a frame on the lair wall, I’ve been trying to acquire one for years.
Deus has a rather powerful bodyguard for exactly that situation.
Only as long as they see him as too much of a threat to take out themselves
Once he proves himself to be a gibbering egotesticular narcissist, he will be ended faster than Sydney can swear up a storm after stubbing her toe
There’s that irrational hate again.
One might begin to think that “The Lady Doth Protest Too Much.”
I believe in my heart that one day Guesticules will see the light and the way which is Deus.
All praise Deus, amen.
No more irrational than Pander’s die-hard fanaticism
One day she may find a cure that doesn’t involve Kool-Aid (or any other variety of liquid refreshment)
It’s not my fault that Deus has only been wrong once. Twice if you include his problems with updating powerpoint presentations I have to admire the man.
43. If it’s stupid and it works, it’s still stupid and you’re lucky.
I know stuff like that is considered and happens way up the command chain, but it still feels odd to just see someone say/imply ‘F paying him, go steal that shit.’
Agreed. And they’re supposed to be the heroes and they’re all “Yes. Let’s steal it!” Never mind, I’m pretty sure they like to put other super powered thieves in jail.
USA using his military to steal under the guise of being a force for good?
Nah, that never happened.
They’re not heroes, they’re the government
“Heroes?”
Honey, I hate to break into you, but that’s propaganda. ARCHON is a branch of the United States military, which itself has been the enforcement agent of US neoimperialism since the 19th Century.
And I say this as a veteran.
Yes, this is comic, and yes, our protagonists are generally oriented towards beings Good Guys…but never, ever forget that the only reason they’re in that position in the first place, is because Uncle Sugar wants them under control, and available for deployment, specifically for things like this. Ever heard of Major General Smedley Darlington Butler? Here’s a quote:
“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
This meeting is not horrifying because of its unusualness, but because it is absolutely, utterly banal in its mundanity. This is a very good depiction of business as usual in the Imperial Core. The Alari would likely laugh themselves silly over the lengths the participants would go to to justify what is, at its most basic, a naked grab for power.
That’s what the Alari come across as, really. Like so many “aliens” we dream up, they are “us, but different.”
Vulcans? Us, with better self-control. Navi? Us, but literally better interconnected. Daleks? Us, but Oops, All Fascists!
The Alari are Us, but more coffee & _no_ illusions. They would understand exactly what these orders are about.
“Preserving the status quo in which the people on that panel see their interests at the top of the global hierarchy.”
And this, more than anything else, is why several of us are withholding our judgement of Big D. He’s acknowledging that the status quo exists, and that it _must_ change, which is going to put him at odds with everyone & everything that is positioned to preserve it.
“ARCHON is a branch of the United States military, which itself has been the enforcement agent of US neoimperialism since the 19th Century.”
Even without the hero angle, it seems odd to not just pay for it in trade instead of trying to steal it. If he was asking for 2 trillion or something then … okay then I could see ‘steal it.’ But the US tends to spend a lot more for a lot less, and what Deus is asking for in trade is even less costly than straight up cash, plus would be good for manufacturers in the US as well.
“And this, more than anything else, is why several of us are withholding our judgement of Big D. He’s acknowledging that the status quo exists, and that it _must_ change, which is going to put him at odds with everyone & everything that is positioned to preserve it.”
One would honestly think that making nations in Africa richer and having a more educated populace would also wind up being better for first world nations, as it creates an additional trading partner, rather than nations which require aid. It’s odd to want to preserve that status quo of warlords and extreme poverty, which would be breeding ground for disease, terrorism, and resentment, not to mention a massive waste of potential and decrease in peace and stability in the region.
More or less everyone would think uplifting Africa would be beneficial to the world, except for those people who actively work to suppress Africa and are thus the reason it is what it is today.
To be clear, I don’t know enough about the world politics to truly say for certain that Dave has hit the nail precisely on the head here. I just know about the appearance of world politics that we have in this country, and he’s described that to a T.
Because there is a small group of people who are profiting outrageously from the situation as it is, Pander, and they are not going to un even the slightest risk of losing .0001% of that, under any circumstances.
And within that group, is a group that just genuinely believes that they are objectively superior beings, and that it is their right to dominate anyone they can, and the just fate of Africa is to be dominated.
It only baffles you, because you’re attempting to apply some sort of logic to what is, foundationally, a purely emotional situation.
I just think that, even for purely selfish reasons though, there’s more profit to be made in dealing with a more advanced and educated people in Africa, because they’d be better trade partners and not be as reliant on aid instead.
“It only baffles you, because you’re attempting to apply some sort of logic to what is, foundationally, a purely emotional situation.”
Yes but I could understand maybe ONE of the people on the panel going along with a completely illogical reaction but ALL of them + Maxima agreeing about it? That just seems weird and counter-intuitive. This isnt even my usual Deus-can-do-no-wrong worship (all praise Deus amen) … it just uses the barest common sense to trade construction equipment for highly advanced alien equipment which could be used for ALL manner of uses, including military and exploratory, without there being ANY chance of negative public reaction if it ever came out that the US instead tried to steal it when a much easier route was available.
So yes it definitely baffles me. I’d think at least SOMEONE there would be applying logic of using the path of LEAST resistance to get their goal.
It feels to me like the ‘slightest risk of losing .0001% of profiting outrageously from the situation in Africa’ (which I don’t really see happening since Mozambique and Galatyn and other areas in sub-saharan Africa did NOT seem to be getting any real use from western nations) seems a lot smaller than the significantly larger risk of losing whatever power/profit there is to be had in that area via a binding trade deal which seemed to be MASSIVELY in the US’s economic favor (like what Deus was offering, almost as a ‘I dare you to do something stupid like steal instead of taking this sweetheart offer in which i’m practically giving you everything you could ever want’). Even if we are only talking about public relations and not the obvious tangible benefits involved, it’s still in the US’s self-interest to take the deal.
Even if people come at it from the idea of ‘the just fate of Africa is to be dominated’ (pretty awful attitude for anyone to have but lets work with it for the sake of argument) – it’s more profitable to ‘dominate’ a people who can provide more for you and are not having to concentrate on basic subsistence than a people who can only provide scraps because they can’t even take care of themselves.
You’re trying to apply logic to demons from hell.
Gay panic, trans panic, rock’n’roll panic…
The list goes on. They just want people to suffer.
“They just want people to suffer.”
Like I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I think that Hobbes was likely more accurate than Rousseau when it comes to human inclinations. I don’t think that people are naturally good, any more than I think any living organism is ‘naturally’ good. I think decisions tend to be based on what is most advantageous for the organism.
I tend to assume people’s natural inclination for greed and/or self-interest overrides an inclination to want to see others suffer. If you make the reward appealing enough, most people will do things even if it’s something for which they have a fundamental dislike. Which is actually also one of Deus’s main philosophies – that greed is the driving factor of… pretty much everything. At least everything involving humans, although I’d also argue that tend to be the case among most living organisms as a matter of just being alive, although that might alter slightly depending on if it’s on a microcosmic or macrocosmic scale. If you can get something with the least amount of obstacles against you, most people will do that option. Most everything in nature, including people, tend to go towards the path of least resistance. What the panel (and to a lesser extent, ARCHON) is doing here is a path of significant and unnecessary (and ultimately self-defeating) resistance.
I defer to Hobbes the Stuffed Tiger on matters of human motivation.
Again, you are attempting to apply logic to a case where it has no purchase.
Humans are not rational decision-makers. We are emotional decision-makers.
And this demonstrates the very hard limits of Big D’s philosophy of greed. It ignores all manner of other motives, for no better reason than economists discounting irrationality, instability, and money-supply from the ‘Neoclassical’ model.
“Again, you are attempting to apply logic to a case where it has no purchase.”
I like being logical. :) Plus it really does have ‘purchase’ in this case, hence my confusion.
“Humans are not rational decision-makers. We are emotional decision-makers.”
I’d argue that we are both. We are emotional decision-makers in the short term when we dont have time for or don’t want to have a lot of debate or discussion, and rational decision-makers in the long term when we do want to discuss all the issues. Long term emotional decision making eventually is going to fail BADLY if you don’t correct for the problems made with logic.
When you argue in front of a jury, for example, you go for an emotional appeal only if you don’t think the facts themselves are completely on your side, as the law describes them. You’re hoping the jury will ignore some of the elements in favor of their gut feeling. You don’t usually do this with a judge unless you know that they are a very emotional judge. When a judge is making a decision based on emotion instead of based on the law, it’s grounds for an appeal. This is not the same case for a jury. ‘Emotional judges’ used to be a lot more rare than it is now though, unfortunately. Often leading to decisions which get overruled or are contradictory.
“And this demonstrates the very hard limits of Big D’s philosophy of greed.”
1) I like that you call him ‘Big D’ – two thumbs up.
2) Actually I think what it shows is that if the US goes with this strategy, Deus will almost certainly win because he’s using the whole ‘Greed is good’/Hobbesian ‘people will do things for self-interested reasons’ logic, while this panel seems to be making a knee-jerk reaction combined with unwarranted hubris, even BEFORE Maxima reminded them about Halo’s ability to go back and forth between Fracture Station.
“for no better reason than economists discounting irrationality, instability, and money-supply from the ‘Neoclassical’ model.”
It’s more long term gain vs short term IMHO. Deus plays the long game. That can account for short term irrationality and instability of other people’s overly emotional choices (although I’m still astounded that this panel WOULD be making a decision like this instead of the logical one). And like Deus explained, most emotional choices tend to still boil down to some element of greed. The trick is being able to channel that greed into a positive outcome. Deus likely has a few dozen plans for any decision that the panel would make, but just going along with the trade deal is actually the best for BOTH sides – the US can be guaranteed a positive outcome for themselves with this deal, with many possibilities for BAD outcomes if they don’t take the deal… whereas Deus can get a positive outcome with or without the US’s help.
So you don’t think people are naturally good, and yet you attempt to attribute the best possible motives you can imagine to explain their behavior.
People generally don’t care about the absolute quality of their life. They just compare the relative quality of their life to others. And they often decide that it’s easier to make the gap wider by making someone else’s life worse than making their own lives better.
“So you don’t think people are naturally good, and yet you attempt to attribute the best possible motives you can imagine to explain their behavior.”
Um… no. I don’t think people are naturally good, but I attribute the best possible motives to people acting in their own or their social group’s own best self interest. That’s Hobbesian philosophy.
“People generally don’t care about the absolute quality of their life.”
Since when? People OFTEN care about the absolute quality of their life. It’s the rare person who is completely altruistic, and even when someone IS altruistic, it’s often because they were brought up with a specific moral framework that was ingrained into them, rather than it being something that occurred naturally.
“They just compare the relative quality of their life to others.”
They do but they also compare their quality of life to their previous quality of life. It’s a combination of the two. In both cases though, it’s about self-interest. What is being done here is NOT something that would be in the US’s best self-interest, and it’s just a bit confusing that they’d be choosing to do something harder which is going to net them less in both the short run and the long run with MUCH more risk involved. The US has a ton of surplus equipment. IF we can use that as trade for new alien tech, that’s just a win-win for everyone involved with no risk whatsoever. In fact, it helps us free up waste on TOP of getting new tech and a valuable new trade partner (getting in on the ground floor so to speak). Plus it’s better than getting in bed with other nations who were are currently beholden to who have far worse track records with human rights violations (Deus seems to have made things MUCH better human rights-wise for the citizens of Galytn and seems like they will be doing the same in Mozambique).
“And they often decide that it’s easier to make the gap wider by making someone else’s life worse than making their own lives better.”
No. That’s what people who do not understand the basics of world economics think. In a global economy (or in any significantly sized national economy) any successful economy is not going to be a zero sum gain. That would be short sighted and ultimately self-destructive. Economies fluorish when both sides get something they want rather than when one side gets what they want and the other side suffers. If I sell you an iphone for $1000, we both get something we want. I get the $1000 because I value $1000 more than I value having an iphone, and you get an iphone because you value the iphone more than you value $1000. IF you didn’t, then you wouldnt bother getting the iphone and you would get some less expensive item which you value more than whatever amount of money you are willing to part with.
The panel SHOULD be valuing alari tech and Deus’s new technology systems which they don’t have but VERY much want…. a lot MORE than they value surplus construction equipment which they already have and do not need. That’s not me thinking they should have the best possible motives as good people. That’s me thinkin they should ahve the best possible self-interest-based motives for getting the best deal for THEMSELVES with the smallest amount of risk expended.
“So you don’t think people are naturally good,”
Just to reiterate, I don’t think people are naturally good OR naturally evil. I think people are naturally self-interested and prone to some level of greed because of that self-interest. That’s not just humanity – that’s nature in general, and the self-interest becomes more pronounced the more one goes towards rationality and away from species-based instincts.
@Pander, you’re essentially repeating yourself at this point.
That facts remain what they are, though, and they will not yield.
All human beings, baring a very specific kind of well-documented brain damage, are emotional decision makers. Some of those humans are sadistic assholes who enjoy demeaning and damaging others, and some of them are so well enamored of the myth of their own superiority that they feel completely justified in doing whatever is convenient/gratifying to elevate their own position or maintain said elevation.
And they will act irrationally in pursuit of these goals, period.
Furthermore, you keep going back to Hobbes.
Hobbes was a toady to the King, and Leviathan was written to justify retaining the monarchy in an age when it seemed as though the entire institution of monarchy in the world, as a whole, was on the verge of extermination. In it, Hobbes has exactly one cogent thing to say, and it is this, “Training and experience are Good Things when running a Nation-State.” And as far as it goes, this is true.
…but it doesn’t actually go all that far.
If you want to talk about “enlightened self-interest,” you should probably be looking to Adam Smith instead, and here’s the thing…Adam Smith understood that self-interest alone isn’t a workable foundation for an economy, let alone a society as a whole. He wrote _two_ books, you see. Before “The Causes of the Wealth of Nations,” he wrote “The Theory of the Moral Sentiment.” They are intended to be read together, paint a much fuller (and more accurate) picture of Smith’s overall theory. The basic thesis is this, however, “Wealth relies on Society to exist, and Society relies on a certain amount of Collective, as opposed to Individual, Interest in order to function and maintain itself.”
But, moving on to your example revolving around the iPhone…I always find it entertaining that the default commodity for this argument is always something is locate in, or on the border of, the ‘luxury good’ category. It’s never about anything near the bottom of Maslow’s Hierarchy. Water. Food. You know, those things that people cannot forego without literally dying. Presumably because when “the literal threat of death for failure to buy something” enters the equation, it suddenly gets _super_ hard to make “voluntary exchange” arguments.
@Bharda:
“you’re essentially repeating yourself at this point.”
Yeah pretty much. :)
“And they will act irrationally in pursuit of these goals, period.”
I don’t think acting irrationally in pursuit of goals works for long term goals though. Emotional decision making is far too flighty to work for long term planning.
“Hobbes was a toady to the King, and Leviathan was written to justify retaining the monarchy in an age when it seemed as though the entire institution of monarchy in the world,”
It doesnt change that the general philosophy that humans (and other animals) act in their own self-interest seems to be a pretty sound principle that’s very readily apparent, both in civilization and in nature. And when they are in a political system they inevitably bring that self-interest into their decision making. And this plan doesnt seem to work for the self-interest of the United States, so it’s a very odd strategy to have.
“you should probably be looking to Adam Smith instead”
I can look at both. :) Adam Smith’s foundation for an economy or society didnt ignore the fact that people are self-interested. Instead he uses that fact to try to guide self-interest into a more stable economic model with the whole Invisible Hand argument – how free markets can incentivize individuals, who are acting in their own self-interest, to produce what is societally necessary. Adam Smith did understand Hobbesian philosophy as well as it related to human inclinations.
“I always find it entertaining that the default commodity for this argument is always something is locate in, or on the border of, the ‘luxury good’ category. It’s never about anything near the bottom of Maslow’s Hierarchy. Water. Food. ”
Fine. Use food instead of an iphone. If I have a loaf of bread, and you want the loaf of bread, but I want the $5. I value the $5 more than I value the loaf of bread, and you value the loaf of bread more than you value the $5. What the product is is irrelevant for the example – it’s a question of what you value more. If you can earn $5 for 20 minutes of your labor, you value the $5 more than you value your time of 20 minutes. Then you value the bread more than you value the $5. Meanwhiel the person who paid you the $5 valued your labor more than they valued the $5.
“You know, those things that people cannot forego without literally dying.”
Unless you’re growing and milling the wheat yourself, or do the work of kneading the dough and baking the bread, then you don’t have a right to another person’s labor without giving something in return. The person baking the bread, or the person who distributed the bread, or the person who grew or made the materials to make the bread are all doing so because they valued the payment more than their time and effort expended. It’s still about voluntary exchange unless slavery or sort sort of ‘forced altruism’ (which… also sounds like slavery since altruism isnt altruism if it’s forced) is involved. Because the person growing the wheat, the person milling the wheat, the person baking the bread, the person distributing the bread, etc…. they are ALL acting in their own self-interest. The person on the other side of every step of that process is also going to act in their self-interest to offer something in trade that the other person wants more than what they are giving up. Yes, they could always steal the bread, but that doesnt seem like a workable solution long term because 1) they may get caught, and every time they steal the bread in the future increases the likelihood of getting caught and punished, and 2) if the person from whom the bread is stolen keeps having it stolen without any thing in return, they have no incentive to keep baking bread in the first place. Incentivizing self-interest is a key aspect of what Adam Smith wrote about in the Wealth of Nations.
“That’s what people who do not understand the basics of world economics think.”
Guess what? That’s most people. Your understanding of normal people and their thought processes seems grossly distorted and disjoint from reality. You operate in a bubble of unusual people.
@Pander:
But how much do you value your life? Necessities distort the value-assigning mechanism of the market, because you will pretty much always value your life more than any amount of money. The market can force people into making decisions they otherwise would not due to the pressure of survival.
What you’re failing to understand here is that they consider Deus accomplishing his goals to ultimately not be in their best self-interest, and thus their goal is to frustrate his plans however possible, even if it means making short-term sacrifices. If you understood Nomic, their strategy would make more sense. Deus’ strategy is to align short-term wins for his opponents with long-term gains for himself, so that the rational choice is to participate in his long-term plan for domination. It’s like paying someone to dig their own grave and build their own coffin. If you know their goal is to kill you, it doesn’t make sense to do the work, even if you would benefit from the pay in the short term.
@Torabi:
“But how much do you value your life?”
More than I value working for 20 minutes to earn the money necessary to buy a loaf of bread.
“Necessities distort the value-assigning mechanism of the market, because you will pretty much always value your life more than any amount of money.”
Why would you ever think you have the RIGHT to someone else’s labor without giving due compensation in return?
“The market can force people into making decisions they otherwise would not due to the pressure of survival.”
the idea that you have two choices, either force someone to work for you for no competition or perish, seems to be a very arbitrary scenario you’re setting up. I’m just explaining how capitalism incentivizes people doing labor in order to get something they value more than their labor, whether it be money or bread or an iphone or whatever. WHY would anyone ever bake bread if they know that it will be taken from them and they will get nothing in return that they want?
” If you know their goal is to kill you, it doesn’t make sense to do the work,”
I have no idea how you got to this scenario from the very simple and basic premise of giving a person something they want in exchange for getting something you want. Outside of a monopolistic scenario, you are not going to be in the scenario of ‘I must take this person’s property from them and not give them anything in return that they want, and there are no other people anywhere that will give me what i need in exchange for something that I have.’
And even in the unlikely scenario that you are, there are still safety nets in place. Charity (forcing someone to do something for you is not charity btw, that would be theft or slavery – there’s a difference). Welfare programs. Sometimes basic self-reliance.
All this is a tangent though. My main point is that win-win scenarios (like what Deus does) from an open trade arrangement are actually far more common and faaaar more intelligent than a ‘closed pie’ scenario, the latter of which is more of a child’s understanding of economics vs how economics actually works in a capitalist society.
IE, real life is not like the board game Monopoly where there’s only a limited amount of money and property/services, and where eventually one person has all the money from the bank and everyone else has nothing. There is more money in circulation now than there was 5 years ago, and more money 5 years ago than there was 20 year prior. The GDP of the United States has gone UP without the GDP of other nations going down because of it. Wealth actually gets created instead of just shifted from one person to another.
Side question for Pander:
How do you feel about Coconut Island?
Yes, but this is a comic and it seemed they were supposed to be heroes. Now, you’re right. They’re not. They’re hired muscle and okay with it. :p
Well they would want to limit his gains since he is a literal threat to their power.
They could try, but I’ll bet that man has plans in place if anyone tries. Deus is very close to being a super-power with Gaylen already, just with the massfab devices he’s able in a short time to construct any weapon or equipment far faster than any superpower on Earth. And keep the quality far better than any other manufacturing process!
I feel like Deus only invited Max to Gatlyn because he feels like he’s ready for this particular event. He is as much of a superpower as he wants to be. He has the team of super mercenaries. He has the super aircraft. Together, they’re probably more potent than the nuclear arsenal that traditionally makes a country a superpower, plus they can actually be deployed which makes them much more effective.
Meanwhile, if you try to nuke Gatlyn, those nukes explode 600 miles from Gatlyn territory because he has Opal on staff, and has almost certainly come up with a mitigation plan for Opal being out of commission.
That said, if he wanted a nuke, he could get a nuke.
Intercepting an ICBM warhead is really hard, this should also be a problem for Opal.
Don’t have to intercept them, just put a portal in between them and their target destination
Except this wouldnt limit his gains. He can go to any number of COMPETING nations for the equipment, since this is sort of a sweetheart deal that he’s offering the US. As for the MassFab devices, they literally have access to the SAME place where Deus got them, as well as a means of getting those devicse through customs as long as they can trade something of value. Given what they mainly have off the top of my head is superpowers for hire and entertainment, according to Cora, that itself is valuable as trade.
They could very well be intending to just pay him. It never hurts to have back up plans, just in case.
This is my personal theory. Just paying him makes plenty of fiscal sense, and eliminates the political risk of betraying an established trading partner / supplier with (presumably) a very good track history. But if he also sells this tech to other countries, the value of the deal goes down dramatically with the US’s loss of exclusive access.
Might also be “How much would it cost us to steal them, compared to just buying them?”
The game you have described actually exists. It’s called Dragonchess, was invented as a game played in the Forgotten Realms. It has three boards played simultaneously representing the earth, sky, and underdark, with special rules for how each can attack the other.
There’s also 4D chess with added time-axis movement
And 5D chess with an added multiverse axis (using the time travel axis creates another board entirely in parallel to the main timeline, and pieces can travel between those parallel timeline boards).
And then there’s Pokemon chess, advertised as “the least competitive competitive game.”
I really ought to play more 5D Chess with Multiverse time travel, but I don’t know any people the right combo of smart and crazy to want to try it with me.
well, I’m already 5 moves ahead, 3 behind, 2 to the side, and 14 towards the sidereal quantumsphere, so,…
I believe that means it’s your move first.
I just called checkmate on our game a week ago, before we started playing.
Good game!
There’s also 3D chess, based off the game in Star Trek, and Fairy Chess, created in the early nineteen hundreds.
Or, Three-dimensional chess, from the late 1800’s. One variant uses an 8x8x8 board.
There are literally thousands of chess variants. Many of them in fact invented by chess masters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chess_variants for a sampling.
Regular chess continues to do fine.
There’s also quantum chess, where you roll a dice to see what the piece you decided to move actually is.
There’s something called fairy chest that exsists too. Uses a bunch of hybrid peaces and the like.
Omega chess is my favorite variant. I am disappointed to see that chess boxing is only a footnote in that list.
The problem with Omega chess is that you can only play with an Alpha, and the loser get’s dry humped.
I’m sure it exists in more than one form. A search on ‘chess’ on Steam gives 852 results, including multiple results involving time-travel and multiple timelines
As well Halo ought to have some pull with the Alari, too, given that she arranged for some of their refugees to be rescued.
Though I’m not sure, given their culture, that that actually gives her very much leverage.
Leverage, with the Alari, probably involves keeping a stick up their butt and using their grandmother’s soulstone as a pivot point.
+1 internet for the excellent combination of in-world callbacks, physics puns, and tropes of evilness.
And while the Alari have so much infighting that I doubt helping a refugee clan buys her any points (and may actually be seen as a negative by competitors), at some point some members of that group will undoubtedly regain resources and power. And their society highly values loyalty and connections.
I suspect they value exploitation more than loyalty, and leverage more than connection.
The Alari strike me as being “Us, but way more caffeinated & with no comfortable self-deceptions.” Cross-fit Bros who make The 48 Rules of Power their entire personality.
It could be a mixture of both. Alari value exploitation of those they consider ‘lessers’ while they value loyalty to those they consider equal or superior to them. It would be consistent with how Lorlana views Deus.
So like I said.
Us, but without the comforting illusions.
Fair enough critique on the human condition.
Are the Alari really as monocultured as all of these comments paint them?
Certainly, their ruling elites were described by the comments here, but I doubt that really describes everyone from the planet. Dave feels like he’s a sufficiently nuanced author with a sufficient awareness of tropes that he’ll in time avert this one.
I’d say the topic has already been brought up within the comic, with the refugees on fracture station. Whether that sees more development, with all the other plotlines competing for pages? We’ll see.
Anyone else hearing the star spangled banner and a bunch of marines trying to take Fracture station for “murica”
While poor Halo is locked up like a star gate..
Max has just given a government body of the military all they need to lock her up as a resource.
Good luck keeping her locked up when she has a stargate in her pocket that they want to use.
glovecuffs
Which would be stupid, she’d be useless and unlikely to co-operate from then on, Sydney would be more likely to go live with Frix in that case! And Max and the rest would (secretly) agree with her. But the USA government would never do anything that stupid, right? (crickets chirping) Right?
*quiet, awkward coughing in the back of the room*
…the uncomfortable truth is, the US government (a wholly-owned subsidiary of the NYSE) is always only one very, very small step away from become the Dark Eldar. “Take what you want, and burn the rest.”
And the second they take one off to make her use the stargate she escapes.
She may also be the only one that can see the bookmarked destination UI, even though others can see the general navigation HUD. She could easily drop an overbearing officer into deep space like she did with Kevin – best to make sure her involvement is entirely optional, and that her good will is secured.
She will likely fight like no other until they do, but we have already seen if the orbs are restrained she is unable to move with them.
Rather simply you keep all of them but the travel orb restrained, she is then bound to her chair.
Max will likely go along with it, as she is military, well up to a point. She is already looking at what the US can gain with Halo offering transport back and forth.
But Loyalty only goes so far, I assume if they treated Halo as nothing more than a machine she will see red.
Someday, Max will remember her conversation with Deus about the status quo, and realise that she rules America as soon as she decides that she wants to.
If she gets ordered into doing something she finds distasteful, then that day will arrive sooner.
Max doesn’t seem interested in political power. Being ruler of the entire world would be a colossal time suck, in addition to mostly incredibly boring. She’s already insanely rich and can do pretty much anything she wants, whenever she wants… so barring a major personality shift, I can’t imagine her doing a face-heel turn to compete or partner with Deus.
I dunno, all it would take is her realising that she’s also responsible for the actiuons that she chooses not to take.
Then again, Deus was surprised when she joked about wanting an invisible jet over fixing women’s health in America.
So who knows, maybe she really doesn’t care about all the feminism she talks?
I think Maxima just said that to Deus because she wanted to make him do a spittake. :)
Or maybe she thinks bribing congressmen is the wrong solution to what’s ultimately a cultural problem.
Most Americans, when polled, agree with every policy the Democratic Party stands on.
Until you tell them that they’re Democrat Party policies..
It’s a politics problem, not a culture problem.
You don’t think that in itself is a cultural problem?
I had a thought recently that politics = culture + power. Or perhaps more accurately, that politics is an explicit mechanism for adjudicating culture, a set of rules, a game, by which we determine how culture is expressed or enforced. And that when people complain about other people “making things political”, what they’re really saying is “don’t try to use a system of logic to invalidate my feelings”. Culture is emotional, law is rational. And while changing the law can help change the culture, people will fight back. Political gains are more fragile, more transient. If you change the culture first, your victories are more likely to stick, rather than remain a constant battle.
Obviously, you have to do both. In many ways we’re losing politically even as we’re winning culturally, because of deeply rooted problems in the mechanisms of our government. And the other side hopes to use their political victories to force change on the culture. I think, ultimately, that they’ll fail, in part because of that strategy. But the Democratic party has some considerable image and messaging issues that they do not seem eager to address, thinking them unimportant. As you say, they’d win handily on policy, if only they could fix the cultural bias against them.
good luck trying to take over the station.
do not think any amount of Murica can do that.
Max is ‘Murica. Max could be powerful enough to do it solo (after Sydney takes her there), and that means this is some amount of ‘Murica that can do that.
Why is this important to you?
I don’t think Maxima could do it. Alien tech is signficantly more difficult to deal with than human tech. Dabbler alone has been able to fight Maxima to a standstill, and the main reason the alien mercs lost is they were WOEFULLY unprepared for what superpowers could do. There is much better tech available that could deal with Maxima.
Right now, Maxima is a big fish in a little pond. The universe is a much bigger body of water, and they likely have access to a lot more that COULD hurt or permanently contain Maxima. It would be dangerous hubris to assume they can’t. Even with something as advanced as aetherium causeways, they have ACCESS to that, even if Sydney’s is able to fit into the palm of her hand.
Plus I don’t think Sydney would cooperate with taking over Fracture station anyway – she’s in this to be a superhero more than to be a soldier. She’s already said in the past there were certain things she would NOT do, even if the US government gave orders to do so, like seizing Cora’s ship. Even under direct orders. I think several other members of Archon would also not follow an order like that – Achilles, Mr. Amorphous, Heatwave and Digit most likely, since they also went into this to be heroes (since they were vigilantes before getting caught and given a choice to work for Archon or stop vigilante-ing).
Ruling a transportation hub is impossible without maintaining the trading relationships, and that requires the inhabitants and merchants to be reasonably okay with the situation. Maybe Archon could stage a change of regime, but by and large the involvement is voluntary. Sure, there’d be some smugglers and low lifes who would still do business regardless of morals, but much of the galaxy (and probably the Xevoarchy) would stop trade and demand surrender. And possibly reparations.
Much more efficient to let the existing machine grind along, and only control the key areas related to getting the things you want.
Plans emphasizing redirection of blame… In other words make it look like someone else stole it. But how many groups are capable of stealing and how many of those have motivation and your list is pretty short.
All that matters, is that someone else is blamed when their plan hits the crapper, not that they are a legitimate possibility
Yes, except that what really matters is they’re going up against a super intelligence that should easily be able to predict this move on their part. So their attempt to blame someone else will fail spectacularly.
I think Deus’ power is more information divining than super intelligence. He and his employees have been shown multiple times having information that can’t be derived by thinking really hard.
Unless the information gatherer is an employee and Deus used intelligence to figure out they had the power and make them a good offer.
You are on to it with the last part: he doesn’t know that shit, his just smells of it because he has his fingers up so many butts connected to smart brains
I think he has a lot of spies in key places around the world. We saw during his
takeoverrestructuring of Galytn that he employed multiple supers with invisibility etc who had collected clandestine blackmail material – 10 years before the current timeline’s public reveal of supers. Maybe he intuits some info ex nihilo, but it’s much more likely that he sits at a throne of spies.My Internet points is Deus employs the spies but also has an information divining super power. He knew information about Sciona that she didn’t expect anyone on earth would have, and had managed to draw her naked, presumably at a time when he wasn’t expected to have any access to see the real her naked even with spy tech, because she was an Alari head grafted onto a troll.
“He knew information about Sciona that she didn’t expect anyone on earth would have, and had managed to draw her naked, presumably at a time when he wasn’t expected to have any access to see the real her naked even with spy tech, because she was an Alari head grafted onto a troll.”
I still have a personal little theory that Deus knows all the stuff he knows because of something dealing with time travel or some other sort of communication with his future self. Sort of like how Layla Rose Miller from X Factor Investigations and X-Men seems to ‘know stuff’ that she definitely should not know about, to the point that even major power players like Dr Strange were completely wrong about her origins and how she has her knowledge of pretty much everything that happens with everyone.
He has plenty of information that spies wouldn’t know.
He knew exactly where to send Vale to retrieve the brane-ripper from under the debris of a collapsed mountain. No one could have told him that. He also figured out how to use it, which involves lots more hard-to-get information.
He had Opal open a portal right where Darude fell through, also not something spies could have told him beforehand.
He knew about Sciona’s vault heist in enough detail to catch her red-handed, which only her handful of accomplices knew about (okay, maybe Cthillia told him, but she says it is because he seems to know things he shouldn’t.)
He figured out the superion field, which neither the aliens nor the magical communities seemed to have any idea about, given how surprised Dabbler was by it, and without having access to their knowledge, given that he asked Dabbler about other things, but she refused to tell him.
He had Thothogoth’s contact information, which Tom was very surprised about. (Kinda possible, but a stretch.)
Finding Maxima’s geode, also a bit suspicious.
An extensive spy network could easily have uncovered the majority of that information.
– Vale could easily have been tailing the Archon team and saw the mountain lair blow up, then just looked around to see if any good loot dropped. We really don’t know what her powers are, but viewing magic and phasing through rock seem in line with her smoke-form abilities shown on-screen. The Brane Ripper has to have a pretty strong magical signal – but given he already had a stargate built to use it, he must have already been planning to acquire it. Probably because:
– He already knew about the Vault and its contents from prior dealings with Council members, or their peers / contractors in the supernatural community. One of Sciona’s co-conspirators may have tipped him off on her timing, or he may have just had a plan ready to go and recognized the Veil outage for what it was (or at least a great opportunity) and been watching Sciona’s movements.
– Opal works in Galytn doing transportation for Deus, so her being present by the end of the fight just outside Team Deus’s HQ is fairly inevitable.
– Tom’s contact info, as a political figure in hell, is likely reasonably well known to high-level demons with some connections, and Deus has already been shown to have connections to the supernatural community. Combine that with the constant public surveillance on Archon at all times, plus probably a surveillance satellite or two under Deus’s control, and he had plenty of time to make the connections. If he has any decent analysts monitoring things – and Archon’s A-team activities definitely rate 24/7 monitoring – someone probably handed him a memo about the fight and a phone with Tom’s number pre-dialed.
The superion field results though are probably all him, or at least his conclusions from pulling together lots of supporting research by various teams he employs or trades with.
And Max’s geode, a decade or more later… yeah you got me there, any theories without more data are just wild speculation. There’s no reason the museum would have kept an already-broken geode “in a box in the basement” instead of tossing it with the other daily debris from the “free geode” exhibit. And even if a security monitoring guard or other employee saw her interact with it, and happened to be drinking buddies with her doctor who broke HIPAA by showing them a picture of Max and her transformation, they a) wouldn’t have known which geode, and b) wouldn’t have left it in a box of junk.
Nightmare Chess 1 & 2 are fun card additions to any chess game. The cards can change the way pieces move to world dynamics.
Pffft.. Deus would be outright disappointed if the US, through any means, did *not* try to steal the tech…
The whole international/spy game is so entirely predictable on that front.
He *might* get interested and do a check-up on some things if they’d buy it outright with the minimum amount of haggling, just to make sure he didn’t miss anything.
The US hearing about Shineys it doesn’t have and not trying to steal it? That’s unprecedented and pretty novel.
Nah, not disappointed: petulant and sulky if they didn’t play his game, which is why he told Maxi his plans
If you want to beat someone who plans shit five moves ahead: stop playing their game with their made-up bullshit rules
They tend to get flustered and confused when you do something they didn’t plan on, like going cross-country instead of following the Interstate
It seems like a LOT more work to steal the tech than to just trade for it. I can’t even see the benefit to stealing it instead of trading, given he’s asking for construction equipment, which we have in abundance and usually give away in aid packages already.
Given what Maxima says in the preceding panel, I would guess that it’s more an attempt to escape whatever trap they believe Deus is laying. Max says she thinks Deus is trying to provoke a specific response, and so they all think about what that response might be for a panel, and then attempt to come up with something different, just to surprise him and throw off his plan.
” I would guess that it’s more an attempt to escape whatever trap they believe Deus is laying.”
She literally said that she suspected that the trap being set might be to ‘keep us second guessing ourselves.’ In which case the best response would be to not second guess themselves and go with taking the deal.
I just don’t see what they gain by not doing so, especially since if Deus REALLY needs the construction equipment, all this is doing is having him go to another competing nation like Russia or China or India or wherever else might be competing with the United States for an economic foothold in the rapidly improving region.
The reaction they’ve chosen to go with just seems… dumb… rather than just different. I mean… they even have seen what Deus seems to value as a lynchpin/single point of failure to his success in the region – the mass fabs – if they really wanted to with the option of screwing with him instead of working with him cooperatively.
Ah yes, U.S. foreign policy. Making new enemies every 4-8 years to capitulate to in the future.
It makes perfect sense when you realize that US foreign policy is dictated by capitalism, and not good governance & positive international relations.
Ooh, the “capitalism” bogeyman, goody. I haven’t seen that one since… *checks watch* …lunch.
In what sense are you invoking “capitalism” here? Arguably, as soon as one uses government coercion or military force, one is no longer engaging in capitalism, as that’s a system based upon private economic action, ownership, and market choices.
If you mean “foreign policy dictated on monetary interests or acquisition of resources”, fine, then say that, but there’s nothing uniquely “capitalistic” about that, socialist and communist systems are driven to all sorts of foreign policy and military escapades by the same pressures and lifelines as well.
Even if some otherwise free-market corporation decides to expand their market or workforce by buying some Congressmen and thereby getting government to take over some small countries (see “banana republic”), that’s not “capitalism” (indeed it’s a gross violation of the tenets of capitalism), and the existence of capitalism isn’t what makes that possible or inevitable, you see the same crap orchestrated by communist oligarchs.
Struggles over resources are as old as the first single-celled organisms, about a billion years before capitalism became a player.
The root problem in the current topic is allowing/demanding government to be deeply involved in business in the first place. As P. J. O’Rourke put it, “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” This is why (actual) Socialism is inevitably a corrupt mess — under capitalism, government meddling in commerce (crony capitalism) is a bug, not a feature, but in Socialism, it’s the entire founding principle, with predictable results (see Venezuela’s collapse).
Another O’Rourke quote fits here as well: “You know, if government were a product, selling it would be illegal. Government is a health hazard. Governments have killed many more people than cigarettes or unbuckled seat belts ever have.”
“Capitalism” is one of those foundational advances, like writing, money, agriculture, that once developed, EVERYBODY adopts, and never gives up. Everybody, except maybe the last few barely discovered tribes on the Amazon, does capitalism. “Capitalism” is taking some of the surplus produced by your work, and using it to increase your productivity, rinse and repeat.
“Communist” countries just do state capitalism, where only the government is allowed to own stuff. They’re still as capitalist as anybody.
Now, just like agriculture got so efficient that only a tiny fraction of the population, instead of 95%, had to do it for a living, the same might happen to capitalism. But we’ll still be dependent on it.
The distinguishing feature of capitalism that separates it from other economic systems that include trade or a market is that it rewards ownership over labor.
Capitalism is a definition of ownership written into law. It is impossible for capitalism to exist without legislation, so the idea that the state is in bed with business isn’t a bug. We might call it a feature but it would be more accurate to say it is the operating system. You cannot have capitalism without first corrupting the government.
Socialism goes bad for the same reason: It cannot exist without government support.
In fact, every single economic model goes tits up the moment the government gets involved.
Of course, without an already existing government every economic model to date has resulted in a power structure that is indistinguishable from a government. If there is a solution for this dark pattern, it is not to be found in economics or politics. Maybe look at the biology and psychology of behaviour, that might have a chance of preventing this pattern. No idea how you’re going to convince the powerful to change though, you might have to use education and wait out the already poisoned generation.
Money has a gravity of its own. Much like mass attracts mass, money attracts money. Once there is a big enough concentration of money and it gains continuity (sometimes heredetary, sometimes it is not the members but the organisation that has continuity), with continuity it becomes a power structure.
Power is understandably feared so it is attacked by those with less power. To defend itself the power starts pretending to be fair and writes down their rules: That’s a government. Occasionally they forget that they’re supposed to be pretending.
I’m going to guess capitalism as in (actual) capitalism, as it functions in practice, rather than fantasy capitalism, which is not the magic, self-sustaining system its advocates purport it to be, but something that rapidly and inevitably degenerates into crony capitalism.
tl;dr: “That’s not Real Capitalism (TM).”
Dude, capitalism is exclusively about privatization of property. That is literally _it_. The use of alienated wealth to buy control of elected officials, in order to push policies & actions that serve the interest of said privatization, is nothing new. Look up Smedley Butler.
I guess the equivalent to Arkham for Marvel, well at least the MCU, is the Raft. Not that it’s a mental institute, but then again, there hasn’t been a lot of mental health care happening at Arkham
Actually, Ravencroft is a better equivalent.
Being part of Spiderman’s comics, it has actual mental care.
That’s the place, for some reason, was thinking it was called ‘The Vault’ (knew it was in the middle of the ocean, and has appeared in places other than the MCU)
I think there’s another superprison in the Marvel comics called The Vault. I’m not super “up” on Marvel, but IIRC there were like 4 major superprisons in the main 616 timeline, The Raft, which is in the ocean, The Vault, which I wanna say was in a pocket dimension?, one on the moon that I don’t recall it’s name, and another one that I’m drawing a complete blank on.
The Icebox
plans emphasizing redirection of blame are to be prioritized. in other words, make it look like somebody else stole their stuff. except when a Super intelligence considers how many outfits are even capable of doing that and have the motivation the list grows woefully short.
The point of blaming someone else is not just to fool Deus. It can also provide Plausible Deniability before the voters and other governments.
Pssst… Which one is the President?
the president is much too busy to attend this committee. besides his movements are semi public. this committee existence’s is top secret let alone any records of it. one of the members will brief the president as part of an otherwise normal classified briefing with appropriate redactions of course.
Obama
Obama is President during the comic’s timeline. None of the four people are the President. Each seems to each represent different military and/or political agencies within the US government.
General Steve Moustachio Thaddeus Ross is a military officer, likely either in the same military branch as Faulk (ARCHON, or perhaps the military branch Faulk and Maxima were in before ARCHON was formed – army? Air force?) but higher up, or possibly part of or attached to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Fat Walter is a Senator who is not happy with the kids who are always on his lawn with their hula hoops and newfangled transistor radios and rap thingamabob music – we know that he’s a Senator for sure because DaveB mentioned it.
Not sure who black glasses uniform lady is, but she’s apparently military as well. Very likely the same rank as General Moustachio or higher. I personally suspect she’s a high up position in the Air Force because of that metal she has over her other medals, but I don’t know military stuff so someone else will probably school me on this if I’m wrong. Maybe affiliated with the President’s cabinet? Department of State maybe? Department of Defense maybe? The only reason I suspect she’s the same rank as Steve is her way of speaking to him without bothering with the pussyfooting around formal niceties (unlike Maxima and Faulk) AND right now they seem to both have two stars on their shoulders (although in the past I’ve seen two stars on Faulk’s shoulders as well), although those werent there in previous pages. Steve seems to also have significantly more medals so I dunno.
Labcoat Earhair McEinsteinHair might be a scientist appointed to the panel as all scientists must wear labcoats in all situations by law. He is most likely from DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), given that he mentioned that DARPA was being pretty successful in backwards engineering the FTL ship that Cora procured for the US in exchange for the Fel ship that ARCHON took down.
Hefting the glass? She was showing them that half empty is also half full.
Also, there is Archon. Chess game for Atari and maybe pc (My forgetter works overtime). Same positions and pieces but as you attack a piece you played out the fight on a field with powers based on the piece. A pawn *could* take a queen attacking it, but unlikely. That said a pawn attacking a queen had its own issues…
Had it for my Amiga. A most excellent game. Unicorn vs Basalisk was always a fun fight.
I’ve played Archon Ultra on PC. To reiterate what was said: players take turns moving pieces on the board, and when opposing pieces meet, players play the fight out in real time 1v1. Look up game play videos.
I have Archon for both my PC, the NES, and for the Commodore 64.
You can also play it online for free.
https://playclassic.games/games/action-dos-games-online/play-archon-ultra-online/play/
Enjoy.
I think the Marvel equivalent of Arkham Asylum (as in a specialized prison for superpowered individuals) is The Raft.
Or eating the alien equivalent of a phaal or vindaloo…
Whatever does Max mean by Fracture Station?!?
Deus got advanced tech from Fracture station via an unscrupulous merchant. The US Government can do the same.
I’m guessing that one of Sydney’s Orb upgrades is a history of prior locations visited? In which case she will be able to go back to several places to get tech. One of which is the station, another would be the Alari world that was destroyed by the Kaiju.
The big space station Sydney visited a while back. Major alien trade hub.
Serious question?
Fracture Station is the alien space station Sydney accidentally warped to.
Seriously means “It’s time to visit the space mall” and this is the space mall with the space spice which makes glowing bottoms happen.
Yeah, the super-espionage angle should be totally unnecessary, even ignoring the likelihood of one or both sides having some manner of high-level extrasensory capabilities. Navigating the interstellar commerce shouldn’t be a problem with the existing allies and connections that have been acquired. When you do get back to Fracture, the game to play is Fizzbin.
Just make sure you aren’t there on a Tuesday.
The fart with the Green uniform and 3 stars is asking a Police Force to spy on a country and possibly steal tech from them?
Sure, they’re a military force, but not directly under the Army. And their charter is for Domestic threats.
If the news of this order ever gets out, they’ll be viewed with suspicion wherever they go, and will find that they’ll have issues getting permission to even fly over other countries.
Their charter isn’t only for Domestic threats, it just allows them to operate Domestically (unlike the regular military)
And it’s not like every country isn’t already doing that shit
Yeah, they are not under the Army, any more than the Army is under the Air Force (except when the planes are flying overhead :P )
Regarding the Marvel equivalent to Arkham Asylum, a couple people have already mentioned the Raft, but Ravencroft Institute is probably a better comparison.
Why does the US have options BESIDES giving Deus a bunch of bucks?
SYDNEY EX MACHINA!
Max- Sydney, I think it’s time you went and got a bootie call.
Sydney- What? …Really?
Max – Maybe a date to Fracture Station? Try out exotic foods, do some shopping? (Holds out a huge list of stuff.)
Sydney- Wait, is this work, R&R, or (starts to ramble).
Max- We’ll pay for everything…we’ll Uncle Sam will.
Sydney still rambling.
Max – You can have your boyfriend over more often if you do this.
Sydney- he..here?
Dabbler- I feel a strong tingle in the force. Someone needs my help.
Max- If successful you’ll be pulling one over Deus. Imagine his face when he finds out.
Sydney- Face starts burning red and eyes diallate.
Uh…ummm…
Dabbler- yep, that’s panic horniness. I’m needed.
Sydney- so bootie call and shopping with like my parents credit card? (Starts to grin) I can get the full flight set and those other toys…err tech stuff. Think of all the Grok I can import.
Dabbler stops and eyes go wide. Uhoh.
Several planetary orbits away, next to a small rogue moon.
Space cop assigned to watch sector, sitcoms on 80% of the monitors there.
“Why did I suddenly feel a shiver up all seven of my spines?
And todays winner of the internet has been found
And then she get distracted and end up on Deep Space Nine instead.
ROTFLMAO! so true….
Imagine her buying things from Quark.
He wouldn’t get anything sold because Sydney would be busy motormouthing with Morn. Those two never shut up.
Morn would be to busy getting busy with Dabbler.
She cannot resist his sex appeal
Or he would be busy sparring with heavy weight class supers like Maxima and Vehemence. They may be able to give him a little challenge.
“Markham Asylum”: Not so much the Bedlam that is the DC version, but Marvel does have the RavenCroft which specializes in criminals with mental health issues. In addition there is the Raft, Ryker’s Island, Seagate Prison, and the Vault (as well as Crossmoor Prision in Marvel’s U.K.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Chess_variants has dozens of versions with new pieces, new rules, and new boards.
You *never* bet it all on Flib-Snarb 17. Not unless the dealer is showing a Blurble of 8 shells or higher, and even then you’re risking a Compund Gestation.
i know it’s just reflections.. but ,, it looks as there is a “someone” in the glass,. (the eyes are between her middle finger and thumb,,).
Yeah, that panel just reinforces how much of a simpleton SmugD is: a simpleton who got his grubby hands on legitimate powers and thinks he is in control (he barely has control of his own bowels… )
You really need to hate on Big D, huh?
Just like you and the Government… and everyone else
To add to the Chess variants discussion, I don’t think anyone has mentioned Knightmare Chess, which uses various card to alter the game as they are played.
For example, I seem to recall one that causes one of your bishops to ‘explode’, killing it and any adjacent pieces.
http://www.sjgames.com/knightmare/kc2.html
The problem with super intelligence is it’s not the same thing as being all knowing. You can make plans, very long term plans, but only based on know known variables. Even if you allow for unknowns, unknown unknowns always have the potential to ruin everything. I doubt he’s factored in Krona. He probably doesn’t know much about Sydney’s upgrades either.
Daphne knows about Krona. Which makes it very likely that Deus knows too.
Big D knows about the Black Reliquary.
By extension, he almost certainly knows about the Twilight Council, Semper Vigilantes, and therefore it is only very slightly less likely that he knows about Krona. Not because there is anything intrinsic to the VI’s that would suggest the existence of Krona, but rather because their existence would prompt Big D to form questions, and seek answers.
he surely knows of her existence, not necessarily what she can do, nor does he necessarily know how she’s essentially ARC’s pocket now…
And again, Sydney’s upgrades make her a major wild card here. He cannot anticipate her without the orbs, he certainly can’t anticipate her with them.
“he surely knows of her existence, not necessarily what she can do, nor does he necessarily know how she’s essentially ARC’s pocket now…”
It’s a very safe bet to assume that Deus knows whatever the Council knows, and the Council knows what Krona can do. It’s also a safe bet to assume that he knows that she’s in a relationship with Leon.
‘And again, Sydney’s upgrades make her a major wild card here. He cannot anticipate her without the orbs, he certainly can’t anticipate her with them.”
I do agree with you about this, although if ANYONE can anticipate Sydney, it would be Deus. He seems to be the most genre-savvy person in the comic along with Sydney and, as Maxima described it, ‘they will get on like a house on fire.’
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-407-pseudohistory/
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-408-oranges-golds-and-purples/comment-page-5/
I think it’s a safe bet that Deus knows everything in any earth government’s files, plus TC files, plus any other secret society’s files.
So the only thing that will trip him up is Syd getting a new power mid-scheme, and maybe her ability to teleport.
Though he probably has contingencies for a whole bunch of theoretical powers she could get. Because that’s the sensible thing to do.
I completely agree with every aspect of your post. :) I hereby award you one ‘Get out of Ninja Assassination Free’ card. Non-transferable, no cash value, no expiration date. Use it wisely.
Shameless Pandering, that can’t possibly have any punintended consequences.
See it’s stuff like this that makes it very unlikely that you will ever get a ‘Get out of Ninja Assassination Free’ card, buddy. :)
Ninja Pirate Hit Squad en route.
“I doubt he’s factored in Krona.”
He almost CERTAINLY knows about and has factored in Krona and the rest of the Semper Vigilantis.’ He is very aware of the Council with quite a bit of detail and has already shown that multiple times.
“He probably doesn’t know much about Sydney’s upgrades either.”
He probably does not know about Sydney’s upgrades, unless Maxima wound up making a report on them after Sydney had to tell Maxima. It’s a safe bet to assume, though, that anything ARCHON knows, Deus is going to know or can find out about.
I do agree, though, that the only thing that would probably be difficult for him to counter is Sydney, given that she IS a major wild card which he hadnt seemed to plan for (again, something shown in the comic already).
If you added new pieces to chess, chess masters would be like “huh, interesting variant rules, I’ll play a few games for the novelty of it, but it’s not real chess”.
I thought Sydney was a corporal now?
Eventually, The story line to date has been flashbacks that will presumably lead us to the events of the first page.
How about the may vote incentive? Or should i just ask about the june one?
Big reason I stopped playing Gwent was because they kept not only rebranding the game, but changing the rules on the cards. :(
BTW, had an evil thought. Cooter tries to sneak into the alien spaceship, and gets trapped in the tentacle closet. His bad shapechanging wrecks the safety programming.
I meant rebalancing the game.
You can be certain that Arianna is putting together a shopping list for a “little shopping trip” with Sydney.
“Private Scoville can return to Fracture Station at will.” It is a little more complicated for him, but Deus can do that as well; Archon just does not know it yet.
Yep, and he doesn’t know Sydney can access Fracture either. Eventually one side will detect the other, and the rules of the game will change.
Can Sydney go back at will? It seemed like she was low on “orb gas”, and if that was resolved I fear I missed it.
The training montage seems to imply that sorted it’s self out. We in the comments speculated some reasons. Nothing said on panel though. But she is back to using them after using points which seems to maybe be why they were acting up. A required system update kind of deal dragging system resources till it was taken care of.
In the “3-steps ahead” motif:
What if provoking the US to start getting stuff from Fracture Station is exactly what Deus wants them to do? He’s trying to be a *benign* dictator, right? So what if they all have access to the same technology, and Deus does a better job of 1-upping the US on distribution and use?
I think this is the goal. He wants a ‘fair’ competition with similar tech because it will only make him look better when the US Military tries to be cagey about their super secret tech and Deus is practically handing the stuff out. And he improves QoL for his people more.
The light slowly comes on in those stuffed shirts while they compile their personal shopping lists begin to form in their greedy little minds… the station is aware of Sydney’s visits and no doubt ready for this very idea! Any such attempts would bring the galactic police down on her and Earth very quickly before any of the tech could be mass produced. Sydney would become a wanted criminal on the galactic scale!
Are you SURE galactic powers want to fight against Earth? Giving Earth some toys would sounds like much better idea than provoking a fight with someone who can do this kind of damage. Remember that with Sydney’s gateway, they can attack ANYWHERE.
Private Scoville is going to get a pile of traffic tickets the next time she shows up at Fracture Station.
I’ll be watching for her. Although frankly, given that she’s a known associate of Cora’s, I doubt any charges will stick.
Yeah, nothing a cop hates more, than a civilian doing their job (and a better result than they could ever hope for), and all they can charge them with is… littering