Grrl Power #1026 – Earl Gray, hot!
There’s a fair amount to talk about on this page, but all I want to do is talk about the benefits of bubble mail. Sure, the AC is bad. Like, if the wind blows, the armor starts to disappear. But it comes with a +5 Comeliness bonus. (Or Charisma. I think Comeliness was only included in one edition of D&D.) Then there’s the penalties to being grappled, the bonuses to seduction rolls, and if you change into bubble mail while you’re trying to avoid being tracked, it erases your scent. It probably changes your scent to lilacs or rose hip or whatever the absolute cheapest shit most guys buy smells like. If you’re running through a field of lilacs or “dude chemicals” then that would definitely help. Also, if you equip bubble mail, then put a shirt on over it, then you seriously risk alienating me.
Can I have a tangent here? It bugs the absolute shit out of me when I see people in movies/TV pull a shirt on over wet shoulders. Not damp-but-basically-toweled-off, like their shoulders have been turtle waxed and they have standing beads of water all over their skin. When I do that, (basically never but it has happened) I might as well have a layer of honey on my skin for how much I have to struggle to pull the shirt into place. I assume actors and actresses undergo special training to do this without ripping a tendon in their elbow or tearing open the seams of the shirt.
I’m amused by the idea that Dabbler has been walking around like that since the shower, including the ride on the… helicopter wing aircraft* from the previous page. I guess Maxima was trying to ignore it, but decided she wasn’t going to change her outfit without getting a rise out of her.
Also, Deus has Mass Fabricators. At least now we know what he was doing on Fracture Station.
* Is there a name for planes with rotors built into the wing for VTOL like a helicopter? You see them in sci-fi a lot, like the gunship in the blue cat native Avatar movie (not the dumb Shyamalan disaster). That was really more of a helicopter though. I had a heck of a time googling them. I don’t think they’re aerodynamically advantageous enough to warrant a lot of R&D at the moment.
Tamer: Enhancer 2 – Progress Update: It’s done!
210K words of weapon building, dinosaur fighting, harem satisfying, lumberjacking, moderate diplomacing, bad guy chopping action. Also some humor.
The new vote incentive is up! Lorlara is attempting to break office harassment rules.
Patreon includes some increasingly aggressive fashion choices. Bonus comic page is posted and she no longer has two left feet. Oops.
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The big moment is if Dabbler can identify if the tech is more advanced than what the Alari normally have to as Deus did buy the latest tech from Fracture station and the Alari are implied to be a few levels below the Xevoarchy. Implied Xevoarchy elite members are probably tier 2 through 2.5 or so and Alari are like tier 1 with a few decimals. Then again we theorized he have pulled a gradual reveal trying to reverse engineer the tech so it doesn’t come across so advanced at first and add the better features over time. At the very least we assure he covered up the manufacturer logos and made at stamps.
Let’s see how Pander spins this…
What needs to be spun here?
That Deus is intelligent enough to know what’s going to help Earth the most from extraterrestrial tech?
I’m confused how anything NEEDS to be spun here at all
The Xevoarchy doesnt control what Deus does. It controls what the people who SOLD to Deus does.
Besides, the Xevoarchy has already broken its own rules as soon as they agreed to give the US a starter FTL spaceship in exchange for the Fel ship. :)
The brass rule: Who makes the rules can break the rules.
What rule are we talking about?
I still don’t understand what even needs spinning.
Also if the rules don’t apply to everyone, I question the validity of the rule and/or the rule maker.
Was talking about how he can claim something that is clearly not from Earth can be called ‘Earth Tech’ simply because it’s now on Earth
But then again, this is the same stain who claimed that any land where his people are must be their land, so therefore, he didn’t invade (and not talking about fucking Mozambique)
“Was talking about how he can claim something that is clearly not from Earth can be called ‘Earth Tech’ simply because it’s now on Earth”
Oh okay um…
1) Semantically, he is able to make that argument. He did not say ‘therefore it is Earth Technology.’ He specifically said “a reasonable semantic argument could be made that it is Earth technology.” It’s a reasonable argument that he can make from a semantic viewpoint. Even if he might be wrong, it’s still a reasonable semantic argument to try to make.
2) Since he only bought two Mass Fabs, and now has dozens, it’s reasonable to assume that he backwards engineered the rest of them, and also learned how to maintain them using Earth (and possibly Alari, who are now residents of Galytn, which is on Earth) technology. So they are now Earth technology, even though they were derived from what was originally non-Earth technology.
“But then again, this is the same stain who claimed that any land where his people are must be their land, so therefore, he didn’t invade”
That’s the UN’s fault for making their legal language too vague and broad. Deus even admitted that excuse wouldnt fly for long, but it would take long enough for the UN to come up with more specific language for him to already do what he needs to do by the time they get around to rewriting the language on its legality/illegality.
Presumably you could use the first two mass fabs to make more mass fabs. Machines that can build more of themselves (and just about anything else) can explode in numbers exponentially. The only limitation is probably power to run them and raw material to convert into stuff. He has those solar power towers and presumably some nuclear power plants to start with, and now he can make fusion reactors by just asking the Alari for the fab patterns for them.
It’s possible. Just doesn’t seem probable to me. Seems more likely he just backwards engineered them.
You could be right though. Especially about the Alari part.
Which is more likely, that the machines that are designed to make stuff can make stuff that is more of themselves? Or that a bunch of (by comparison) primitive people with technology hundreds or perhaps thousands of years behind the Xevoarchy’s managed to figure out how it all works, and produced all the tools to build them, and trained all the necessary workers, and sourced the raw materials, and built a lot of them, all in the span of time that is hard to judge but is somewhere between a few days and a few months?
If you gave cavemen a working laptop, how quickly could they reverse engineer it and build more?
“Which is more likely, that the machines that are designed to make stuff can make stuff that is more of themselves?”
From an economic standpoint? It makes more sense that Deus backwards engineered it after getting two of them himself. And maybe Mass Fabbed spare parts.
Now let me explain why.
Supply and Demand.
If a Mass Fab is able to Mass Fab other Mass Fabs, then they become essentially worthless as far as value and rarity goes. The shopkeeper made it seem like the Mass Fabs were NOT easy to get and were top of the line technology.
Not to mention this doesnt really seem to work with Deus’s thought process. It’s unlikely, given his strategic mindset, that he would have such an obvious single point of failure (ie, destroy the Mass Fabs and suddenly his plans are ruined because he can’t make more).
I also take some issue with some of your descriptions of Earth in general.
“Or that a bunch of (by comparison) primitive people with technology”
You don’t actually have a basis of just how primitive or not primitive Earth is compared to other alien civilizations, but you especially don’t when it comes to Deus, who seems to be way above the norm for Earth Tech even before taking alien tech into consideration. And that also does not take into account the Alari being able to help.
“behind the Xevoarchy’s managed to figure out how it all works,”
Earth has certain geniuses that may be able to figure out how it all works. Like Digit. Or perhaps like Deus.
Take Marvel comics for example. You have alien empires like the Shi’Ar, the Skrull, and the Kree. And who’s pretty much the smartest person in the universe? Reed Richards – a human being. From Earth. Tony Stark is no slouch either, being able to backwards engineer celestial tech.
Or take DC comics for example. You have rare geniuses in this case as well, like Lex Luthor or Hiro Okamura (Toyman 2) or Mr Terrific (Michael Holt). Or even non-superheroes/villains like Professor Hamilton at STAR Labs, who was able to rebuild a Phantom Zone projector, or Dr. Silvana who was able to clone Kryptonian DNA without needing to hybridize with human DNA (Divine, Power Girl’s clone).
“If you gave cavemen a working laptop, how quickly could they reverse engineer it and build more?”
Even if you have a low opinion of humanity’s intelligence in general, you shouldnt underestimate Deus’s intelligence, nor his ability to know how to do things that people assume he can’t do. If only because you’ve been reading the comic and should see that Deus consistently knows things that people think he should not know.
BTW, i’m not saying that it’s not possible that he mass fabbed massfabs. I just don’t think it makes as much sense.
a realistic opinion of humanity’s technological capabilities relative to unfamiliar and advanced technology is one again not a negative view Pander.
hell engineers will admit that if you sent today’s tech back just a few decades they’d have a hard time reverse engineering it due to the incremental changes in both the tech and very important here the manufacturing techniques of the sensitive technology,
they simply wouldn’t have the equipment or the capability to take apart and recreate what they were seeing in modern circuit boards in say the 1960s.
so yeas it is isn’t a negative view of humanity but a realistic one to assume people would have a a very hard time reverse engineering advanced alien technology,
and it is actually fairly simple to assume that the fabricators can fabricate the parts of themselves so you can build more of them. Repeat this a few times, including with the newly built ones and you have an assembly line of them far faster than a room full of engineers trying to work around how to even behind to develop the equipment needed to properly probe the *whatever* structure of the inside of these alien machines.
“a realistic opinion of humanity’s technological capabilities relative to unfamiliar and advanced technology is one again not a negative view Pander.”
I didnt say it was. But ignoring Deus’s past performances in the grrlpower universe is not a great idea. Deus has already made MANY things which are already far ahead of human technological capability as it is. Why do you think that, with the economy of an entire nation behind him, a multinational corporation behind him, a space-faring race behind him, and a bunch of different technology he already has from the Black Reliquiry behind him, not to mention the employment of MANY supers, some of which might be able to aid in backward engineering, and not to mention Deus’s already impressive intellect, that he would not be able to backwards engineer the Mass Fabs once he has two of them AND (possibly) the techncial schematics for them that he bought from the shopkeeper on Fracture station?
“hell engineers will admit that if you sent today’s tech back just a few decades they’d have a hard time reverse engineering it due to the incremental changes in both the tech and very important here the manufacturing techniques of the sensitive technology,”
How would you know that? Did we come up with time travel when I wasn’t looking to be able to test that theory? :)
“they simply wouldn’t have the equipment or the capability to take apart and recreate what they were seeing in modern circuit boards in say the 1960s.”
1) Alari
2) Mass Fabs might not be able to mass fab mass fabs, but they might be able to mass fab equipment needed in making mass fabs.
3) Nearly unlimited resources
These are three things off the top of my head that makes me think that Deus can backwards engineer the Mass Fabs. And that it’s a lot more likely that he did it that way than he started Mass Fabbing the Mass Fabs (or that it’s even possible to do so as a basic idea of business for the people who SELL them in the first place).
Seriously think about it. That’s a pretty stupid business model to have. Sell one Mass Fab then no one, not the person who bought the first one, and not ANYONE ELSE, ever has to buy another from you again.
“and it is actually fairly simple to assume that the fabricators can fabricate the parts of themselves so you can build more of them. ”
The more you can break down a part into its constituent part, the easier it is to reverse engineer it. If the Mass Fabs can mass fab PARTS for the Mass Fabs, then they can mass fab the stuff which makes those parts. And you can eventually find out how everything works in the first place.
the engineering thing was from a documentary about how circuit boards are made. they stated the way they are made today involves techniques and technologies that simply didn’t exist in the past and even today without the right equipment and working environment would be nearly impossible to reverse engineer to the same degree.
and yes your very last statement is true, which is why he can make more of them and build his own giving him this out, and if he is smart enough have those models on the floor and not the ones that say (made at Fracture station) printed on them.
on the bgusiness model, there is always the option to put in an intentional flaw, a limitation on what materials the fabricator can fabricate *which can also be a legal issue* or just the limits of the components it is made of (see one of the limitations of a 3-D printer), so a key component in the device can’t be replicated by the device *to the same specs*, like I said for all we know the publically available models are lower grade and making the parts and batteries and such for them are inferior quality than the main one, or you have to fabricate the parts and assemble it yourself, so you are paying for pre-assembly as wel.
hell, that’s the back bone of the fast food industry, pre-assembled products. Sure you can fabricate the parts, but can you put those parts together?
this is the type of limitation you build into machines like this if you want to be all ferangi about it.
that or a size limit, it can’t make something as big or bigger than its self, thus it can’t copy its self outright.
and yes the Alari do give him an advantage…at least you admit alien help actually makes it possible instead of going (humanity hell yeah) about it again. and Deus you will admit is not atypical of humanity anyway.
“that simply didn’t exist in the past and even today without the right equipment and working environment would be nearly impossible to reverse engineer to the same degree”
Miles Dyson (Terminator 2): “The chip! You know about the chip?”
Sarah Connor: “What chip?”
Miles Dyson: “They keep it at a vault in Cyberdyne. It came from the other one, like you (looks at T-800).
T-800: “The CPU from the first Terminator.”
Miles Dyson: “They told us not to ask where they got it from. Scary stuff! Radically advanced. I mean, it was smashed, it didnt work…. but it gave us ideas. Took us in new directions. I mean, thinks we would have NEVER THOUGHT OF BEF-….. (sigh) All my work is based on it.”
“on the bgusiness model, there is always the option to put in an intentional flaw, ”
Right now you are assuming things not stated in the story. If there is an intentional flaw in the Mass Fabs, then sure. But what you’re doing is making an assumption to cover what would otherwise be a hole in your theory so that the business model for Mass Fabs isnt completely ridiculous while still allowing a Mass Fab to mass fab Mass Fabs. :)
“like I said for all we know the publically available models are lower grade and making the parts and batteries and such for them are inferior quality than the main one,”
This is a possibility yes. Especially if Deus did backwards engineer the Mass Fabs.
“Sure you can fabricate the parts, but can you put those parts together?”
You are again supporting my idea that Deus could have reverse engineered the Mass Fabs.
“that or a size limit, it can’t make something as big or bigger than its self, thus it can’t copy its self outright.”
That would make sense as well, which again supports my idea that Mass Fabs cannot mass fab Mass Fabs, and Deus was instead able to backwards engineer how to build them from the existing versions he bought.
“and yes the Alari do give him an advantage…at least you admit alien help actually makes it possible”
Well of course I would admit that. Deus has a habit of using every available advantage he can get. The Alari are a definite advantage. It would be very un-Deus-like to not utilize that strength for maximum efficiency in his plans.
” instead of going (humanity hell yeah) about it again.”
I am definitely a big ‘humanity hell yeah’ person. But I’m also going to base that view on context in the story. The majority of humanity is not on Deus’s level, or supers’ levels.
Not every human being is Alfred Pennyworth. Or even merely Batman. :)
“Deus you will admit is not atypical of humanity anyway.”
Deus most definitely IS atypical of humanity actually. Although I think you meant to say that Deus is NOT typical of humanity. Which I’d agree with. It’s why I keep calling him the paragon of humanity. He’s pretty much at the top of the heap and the pinnacle of human excellence from what I’ve seen. I don’t think MANY human beings could backwards engineer the tech. But there are probably a few. Digit possibly, because of her superpower for inventing. And Deus because… he’s Deus and he’s already proven he can do things that people don’t expect him to be able to do. REPEATEDLY.
All praise Deus, amen.
To start with I will remind you i do not argue or hold onto a single idea. To me these are friendly discussions postulating what if scenarios for a comic neither of us is a writer for. So spitting out ideas and maybes. I have no vested interest in any absolute outcome or theory. On that note the reverse engineering thing seems to be an issue of definition . I do not consider using parts spit out and reassembled as reverse engineering. I do not reverse engineer an Ikea chair or Lego set when I get the parts and assemble them. To me reverse engineering requires learning the basics of the technology and being able to properly duplicate them from the ground up. In other words like taking a plane apart learning how it works and then building your own. Getting a recipe for an alchemy pot to spit out the parts to assemble another alchemy pot isn’t really the same thing. And yes neither has been stated in the comic so right now it is a matter of view on which it.might be.
Also yes typing from phone spell check turned not a typical to atypical , probably typed the words too close together.
“To start with I will remind you i do not argue or hold onto a single idea.”
I know. I like your arguments even when I don’t agree with them fully.
“To me these are friendly discussions postulating what if scenarios for a comic neither of us is a writer for.”
Same here.
“So spitting out ideas and maybes.”
Yep!
“I have no vested interest in any absolute outcome or theory.”
Good to hear that you keep an open mind on ideas. :) Makes the arguments enjoyable.
” On that note the reverse engineering thing seems to be an issue of definition .”
I’m an intellectual property lawyer and have a rather precise definition for reverse engineering, since reverse engineering is a big aspect of patent law and why people get patents instead of rely on trade secrets exclusively.
“I do not consider using parts spit out and reassembled as reverse engineering.”
Good, because it’s not.
” I do not reverse engineer an Ikea chair or Lego set when I get the parts and assemble them. ”
Good, because it’s not.
” To me reverse engineering requires learning the basics of the technology and being able to properly duplicate them from the ground up. ”
Not exactly but close enough. I agree with your definition. Reverse engineering is actually anything you can do to reproduce the product from scratch, which does usually include special processes used, not just materials used. Look up how they figured out the reverse engineering process for the trade secret behind making Teflon coating (they never bothered to patent it because the method was so complicated to figure out that they thought it would be impossible to reverse engineer) if you ever want to read a VERY interesting story on the subject. :)
“In other words like taking a plane apart learning how it works and then building your own.”
Yes. But you can also rebuild the plane and then see how it works with each step. You don’t have to first know how it works. Again, see Teflon’s trade secret history. I mention Teflon so much because in law school patent law classes, it’s one of the main examples they give on trade secrets and reverse engineering.
“Getting a recipe for an alchemy pot to spit out the parts to assemble another alchemy pot isn’t really the same thing.”
It’s usually a major part of it, although you will still need to usually know the process used to mix or assemble those parts. But it doesnt always require the basic scientific principles. At least not at first. IE, even if you don’t understand the principles of lift, but you know how to create the parts for an airplane and assemble an airplane and maintain an airplane, then you have essentially reverse engineered an airplane. Eventually… at least most of the time… you’ll figure out the principles once you can rebuild something and understand what each part does as part of the whole machine.
“And yes neither has been stated in the comic so right now it is a matter of view on which it.might be.”
I know. But I wouldnt underestimate Deus’s ability to figure out how things work since he ha an uncanny habit of knowing things that people shouldnt know. It’s been a regular thing in the comic.
Btw, heres the specific definition for Reverse engineering from a patent law/trade secrets standpoint.
Reverse engineering – “a method or process of developing or manufacturing a known product was discovered through “working backward”, such as taking apart, of the known product”
It doesnt require fully understanding the science behind how it works, although usually when you take apart a product to its constituent levels and can put them back together again, it’s easier to figure out that science. What usually is harder to do in reverse engineering is figuring the correct order in which to do a process.
“on the business model, there is always the option to put in an intentional flaw, a limitation on what materials the fabricator can fabricate”
Sure, and probably the first fabricators in the galaxy, a billion years earlier, had such limitations. Then, for whatever reason, somebody built one without that limitation, and now, a billion years later, people trade starter fabricators around like sourdough starters; They’re common enough you can find somebody willing to give you one for free, and that guy Deus was dealing with was thinking, “What a sucker, you actually PAID FOR IT!”.
But Deus was paying for it so he didn’t have to spend any time hunting down somebody who’d just give it away for the lutz.
I have a few questions, and many more comments.
I’d still like to know what Deus gave as a means of payment to purchace the Mass Fabbers. It was would probably raw materials of some sort, or some form of entertainment media, but we currently don’t have a means of knowing.
The second question is ‘how did Deus know where to go, to reach The Station?’ He was able to focus a portal enough to reach inside the Dysin Sphere, and be able to walk onto the Station. He had to have the knowledge of the Station existing, AND it’s *exact* location within the universe (which is still expanding/moving, so the information must have been fairly current).
It seems likely that Mass Fabbers can make replacement parts for themselves. Especially with two of them. However, it is also likely that they cannot make *all* the parts for themselves. Especially the power sources. Leave one part out, and you’ve maintained your control against selling advanced alien tech to lessers, while allowing other races to make their own.
Deus almost certainly purchased full technical schematics for his Fabbers, to allow for repairs, which means he can reverse engineer them much more easily.
That can be worked around, by manufacturing the MassFabs to operate on power easily available on earth. Much less efficiently than one with an alien power cell, but he’s already building the infrastructure of an entire country, so building extra power into it both allows room for infrastructure upgrades and to power a MassFabber or ten.
I’m fairly sure the MassFabber cna also build less capable Fabbers. So a MassFabber Mk 7 could build a MassFabber Mk 1, which would be larger and less efficient, but it could still crank out infrastructure parts.
Working theory either Deus knows some alien tourists via the same connections he has with the twilight council to know vampires and such. Or Vale set the coordinates and is herself either an astral planer Eldritch being or an ascended class third tier civilization being ,not that there is much of a difference other than how they got ethereal.
Not to mention that Deus has “… an annoying habit of knowing things he should not.”
Personally, I would not enquire the source of such knowledge :)
“I’d still like to know what Deus gave as a means of payment to purchace the Mass Fabbers.”
Possibility #1) Every episode of Archer.
Possibility #2) A whole lot of Earth porn.
“The second question is ‘how did Deus know where to go, to reach The Station?’ ”
Possibility #1) He paid someone who’s in the Council to get the information.
Possibility #1a) He paid with every episode of Archer.
Possibility #1b) He paid with a lot of Earth porn.
Possibility #1c) He paid with money.
Possibility #2) Time Travel shenanigans.
“Deus almost certainly purchased full technical schematics for his Fabbers, to allow for repairs, which means he can reverse engineer them much more easily.”
Yes my thoughts exactly.
You just described the exact reasoning there are issues with civil unrest in the United States. The rules being made by those with the bigger pockets can also be broken by these exact same people. As Deus stated in the past. He doesn’t love money. He loves power, and money is power. This is why capitalist societies have the issues they do.
“This is why capitalist societies have the issues they do.”
Actually that’s why ALL societies have the issues they do. It’s not about capitalism in particular – it’s about any hierarchical system. You get the same thing in socialist nations, communist nations, theocratic nations, feudal nations, etc. Except even more extreme, unfair, and ultimately destructive, because there’s NO check on it at all, whereas with capitalist systems, there’s at least the check of a profit motive.
But in general if you have a hierarchy, you will have inequality. And we can’t have government, or even civilization in general, WITHOUT a hierarchical system.
Capitalist societies just tend to exploit a flaw in humanity to make greed beneficial to humanity as a whole. You won’t become powerful if you’re not rich, and you won’t become rich if you don’t produce something that others want and are willing to pay for. It’s when capitalism is done in half-measures with socialism (and I don’t mean a welfare system, I mean socialism – I mean burdensome regulations and government stepping in continually) instead of relying on the free market system that things tend to get particularly corrupted. It’s why Denmark does so well. Despite a strong welfare system in place, they have a VERY strong free market system also in place – a lot more free market than the US’s free market system, in fact.
As for different rules for different people, that’s a corruption of a republic. When people do not have the courage to actually back up the ideals that make a republic, or to punish people in charge who refuse to apply the rules equally (usually because of stuff like political tribalism – the rules only apply to the people in charge when its the other side in charge, etc), then you get inequality in the application of rules.
I don’t think there’s anything about civilization or even government that fundamentally requires hierarchy. That we haven’t designed one yet is more likely due to a preference by those benefiting from current hierarchies for those hierarchies to continue.
Capitalism is not the free market. You can have either one without the other. The fundamental trait that defines capitalism, that distinguishes it from other systems, is that it values and rewards ownership over anything else, particularly labor. This almost inevitably leads to wealth being funneled to fewer and fewer people, because the value of a single person’s labor tends to remain relatively flat, while there’s no basically no limit to how much one person can own and profit from. However, because labor is still necessary, this incentivizes the capitalist class to construct barriers to inhibit people from transitioning from the labor class to the capitalist class.
It also easily transitions into valuing ownership over things that do not contribute in any way to actual value, and in some cases are actively harmful to the world. Finance does not contribute anything, does not create real products or services that benefit people. The creation of things like NFTs consumes a ridiculous amount of resources, and have no value beyond their artificial scarcity.
A related ailment is the conflation of wealth with virtue. Because of the belief that capitalism only rewards actions that benefit others, it encourages the belief that if someone is wealthy, they must have contributed greatly to society, even if they gained their wealth through harming others. Money, when not tied to physical goods, transitions from being a token that represents goods, to a token that represents “deserving”. People then create systems that assign them that value of deserving things, without actually contributing to society.
Governments and economic systems both only work until people realize they can use the power gained from those systems to break the systems in their favor.
“I don’t think there’s anything about civilization or even government that fundamentally requires hierarchy.”
You’d be wrong then. Unless we are a hive mind and are all identical, we will always form hierarchies based on levels of competence. You literally will never find an example that does not exist. Even in the animal kingdom over rather simple levels of complexity, hierarchies INEVITABLY form as a basic element of biology, once animals form into groups. It’s literally mapped onto our brain chemistry.
Here are some neurological and psychological studies on it if you’d like some fun reading:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7061955/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234389/
“Capitalism is not the free market.”
The free market is a key element OF capitalism.
Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by owners for profit, rather than the state.
The Free market is an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.
The more state interference there is in a capitalist system (ie, the less of a free market that exists) the less ‘capitalist’ that economic and political system winds up being. For example, mercantilism, which is basically an earlier form of capitalism.
“This almost inevitably leads to wealth being funneled to fewer and fewer people,”
This is completely incorrect and a common misconception by people who believe that wealth creation is a closed system, instead of the open system that it actually is. It’s the reason that marxism never worked and Marxist beliefs about capitalism were fundamentally flawed.
“because the value of a single person’s labor tends to remain relatively flat,”
This is also incorrect.
“while there’s no basically no limit to how much one person can own and profit from.”
A person is limited to how much they can own and profit from, based on who is willing to buy and how much they are willing to buy. A seller cannot get richer if there are not people both willing and capable of buying those goods and services. One side values the payment more than the goods or the labor put into services, and the other side values the goods and/or labor put into the services more than the currency being made as a payment.
“However, because labor is still necessary, this incentivizes the capitalist class to construct barriers to inhibit people from transitioning from the labor class to the capitalist class.”
I have literally no idea what you’re saying here, Torabi. The second half of this sentence made no sense, sorry. There is no ‘capitalist class.’ Labor is PART of capitalism. I think you’re trying to describe Marxism maybe, but that’s probably why the sentence makes no sense, since Marxism is an inherently flawed economic concept.
“It also easily transitions into valuing ownership over things that do not contribute in any way to actual value,”
Value is based on if the buyer wants the good or service more than they want the money. It depends on what the buyer and the seller want, and it depends on the context. If I have a carving of a little man, and I want to sell it to you for $1 million, and you want to buy it for $1 million, then it has a value of $1 million to you and to me. To someone else, it might be worthless, but that doesnt change that it has a value of whatever SOMEONE is willing to pay for it. You might value a glass of water as almost worthless if you’re in your kitchen in a first world nation. You might value that same glass of water as VERY high if you’re in the middle of the desert or in a life raft in the middle of the ocean where all the other water is going to make you sick.
This is actual value. Value does not need to create real products or services. It just has to create a product or service that the buyer wants. IE, that the buyer VALUES more than the money.
“The creation of things like NFTs consumes a ridiculous amount of resources, and have no value beyond their artificial scarcity.”
While I consider NFTs to basically be a high tech pyramid scam or ponzi scheme, if someone values that NFT more than $100,000 because it can be tied into some block chain assignment that gives it some form of value in their mind, then the value of that NFT is $100,000.
“no value beyond their artificial scarcity.”
Fiat currency in general has no value beyond artificial scarcity. It still works for its purposes. I think you might not understand the concept of ‘value’ possibly. I can probably offer some helpful educational links, if you’d like?
“A related ailment is the conflation of wealth with virtue.”
I have no idea what conflation there is between wealth and virtue, other than that if you have a lot of wealth, you are more likely to be able to do a lot more good for other than if you have little or no wealth.
“Because of the belief that capitalism only rewards actions that benefit others,”
Capiitalism generally does reward actions that benefits others. At the very least, it does so a lot more than actions that harm others, because in a truly free market system, if you offer a product or service that harms people, but they still need the good or service, then someone else will be able to compete with you and offer that good or service WITHOUT that flaw, or with less of that flaw, which harms the user.
“it encourages the belief that if someone is wealthy, they must have contributed greatly to society,”
No it just means they contributed something that others wanted. It doesnt have anything to do with if it helped the society or hurt the society – just that the society wanted what the person was selling more than they wanted the money. But in general, society does prefer things which help the society overall more than harms the society overall.
This is not an aspect of virtue necessarily though. It can be but there’s no conflation. I think Deus is virtuous specifically because he does things to generate wealth which could be done WITHOUT as much good to society, often with more work involved. It takes him a longer time to make the big bucks, because he does things with an end which winds up being more virtuous. That’s not TYPICAL though – that’s just Deus.
” Money, when not tied to physical goods, transitions from being a token that represents goods, to a token that represents “deserving”.”
Again, you’re describing fiat currency, which has had a VERY beneficial result on the entire world. It’s resulted in huge amounts of wealth creation ACROSS THE BOARD – not just in the hands of a few, because it turned a closed system of wealth generation into an open system of wealth generation.
I imagine we both find it amusing to be lectured by people who clearly know less about a topic than we do.
I also imagine discussing this particular topic with you is rather pointless. You’re too invested and immersed in a set of systems to even imagine alternatives, and I don’t have either the proof or the communication skills necessary to convince you. But the problem is that you seem to think your knowledge of one specific example makes you an expert on the theoretical.
You don’t know how or why any of it works, and just accept that it does. You accept what you’ve been told, despite how little it resembles the world we live in. You’re invested in an illusion, and I don’t have the capacity to lift it. Nor do I really have the motivation. Humanity deserves the hell it’s so eagerly pursuing.
“I imagine we both find it amusing to be lectured by people who clearly know less about a topic than we do.”
I did teach political science and law for a year and change (3 semesters, 2 classes per semester) before I went into private practice so I literally get paid to lecture people at one point in the past. :) Didnt actually pay great but it was a stop gap measure between working for the DA and setting up my own office./ doing per diem work for other firms.
So…. I probably do know quite a bit about this subject. Possibly more compared to you, although I don’t know your background on economic, political, and legal systems. But in the past you’ve struck me as having more of a layman perspective on these subjects, even if I think you’re intelligent and generally very polite when posting (which I appreciate and try to act like in kind).
But in general, I don’t lecture about things that I don’t understand very well. Usually if I don’t understand it well enough to teach it, I state that I’m not by any means an expert on the subject, or that I don’t actually know a lot about the subject.
I know a lot about this subject. That being, capitalism, marxism, and different types of economies and currencies (fiat, etc). As well as the strengths and flaws inherent in each of them.
“I also imagine discussing this particular topic with you is rather pointless.”
Not really. You just need to make points which actually make sense and/or are convincing. It helps if there’s historical precedent to support your stance. If you can’t, then yes, discussing this particular topic with me would be somewhat pointless because it wouldn’t be convincing, but hey – if your goal is just to have a little argument, that might be the point in itself. Maybe your point would not be to convince me or to convince third parties who are not yet convinced on one side or the other, and you just want to argue in order to ‘shoot the sh**’ and have fun doing that.
“You’re too invested”
I’m invested in accurate information and good arguments.
“and immersed in a set of systems”
I just know the history behind Marxism in practice AND in theory, and the history behind capitalism in practice and in theory. I know what a free market system is, again in practice and in theory, and how the free market, socialism, and other economic models interact with real world economic and political systems.
If that’s considered ‘immersed’ then I guess I’m immersed.
“to even imagine alternatives,”
I obviously can imagine alternatives. If I could not imagine alternatives, I would not be able to steelman those alternative arguments in order to dispute them well. I never strawman arguments precisely BECAUSE I can imagine the alternatives, both existing and conceivable ones. Including cryptocurrency and NFTs, although I’m admittedly not as knowledgeable about NFTs as other economic models, but I’m already heavily invested in cryptocurrencies, and I don’t invest in things that I’m ignorant about. I havent invested in NFTs because it honestly feels like a ponzi scheme to me, at least at this point in time. But I know A LOT about the history of fiat currency, the free market system, capitalism, mercantilism, marxism and other socialist models, etc. I also have done a lot of independent research on hierarchies, although I am not personally an expert on hierarchies (which is why instead I point to anthropological, psychological and neurological studies ON hierarchies).
“and I don’t have either the proof”
If you don’t have proof that is definitely going to be a point against your argument, admittedly.
“or the communication skills necessary to convince you.”
I don’t know. You generally are pretty good at communicating your thoughts. You shouldnt be so hard on yourself. You might just not be able to convince me because the arguments on which you’re relying are just not convincing, not because of any intellectual limitation on your part in particular. A person who wants to argue that 2+2=5 in base 10 is not going to be convincing, even if they are an excellent communicator, because the basic facts are against them.
“But the problem is that you seem to think your knowledge of one specific example makes you an expert on the theoretical.”
Depends on the theoretical examples. Some stuff I am an expert on. Other stuff I’m not an expert on but I have enough facts that I can make a good argument. And in still other examples, I’m arguing in order to see if you can argue a counterpoint well (and if you can, it might convince me, or at least make me more likely to question my own stance).
However, I don’t automatically assume there are no arguments that can be made against mine. But I also don’t assume I’m wrong if I have a lot of knowledge on a subject. I’m usually fairly confident when I decide to argue a point because I have facts, or at least firm theories based on historical evidence, to rely upon.
“You don’t know how or why any of it works,”
Actually I very much understand how capitalism and the free market works. I’ve read and studied a lot on this subject from Samuelson Friedman all the way back to Adam Smith and The Wealth of Nations. I also know a lot about the history of capitalism from a historical perspective, as well as mercantilism. And I know a lot about socialism, and Marxism in particular because Marxism is the most often tried and failed form that’s been used in the 20th century, almost always with disastrous results and a LOT of suffering and death.
“and just accept that it does.”
I don’t accept anything on just blanket faith. I accept things based on if they are proven to work.
The sun rises every day. I accept that the sun will probably rise tomorrow. I don’t accept the sun will rise just because the sun should rise – I accept that the sun rises because it’s consistently risen in the past.
(and yes I know the sun does not technically ‘rise’ and it’s the Earth rotating, don’t be semantic about it when people know what I mean by my example).
“You accept what you’ve been told, despite how little it resembles the world we live in. ”
I literally almost never just accept what I’ve been told. That’s what makes me so annoying to people. I am sometimes annoyingly libertarian to others in my mindset. I tend to do my own research whenever possible, and it’s usually annoying when I see others not doing their own research as well and just accepting something as part of tribalism. It’s also why I usually type insanely long responses. I don’t just ‘accept’ things – I explain why I believe certain things, usually in a VERY verbose manner.
“You’re invested in an illusion, and I don’t have the capacity to lift it.”
Capitalism, the Free Market, and Wealth creation are not illusions. They have real world results that are measurable, and have been consistently positive for humanity in general, compared to previous economic and political systems. The main problems have been not more fully investing in those principles.
“Nor do I really have the motivation.”
You seem to type a lot for someone who lacks motivation. Honestly if there’s one thing I can describe of you, it’s that you act motivated.
“Humanity deserves the hell it’s so eagerly pursuing.”
Not sure why you’d think that’s the fault of capitalism, local planning, or the free market, rather than socialism, central planning, political tribalism, and authoritarianism.
While I’m sure it’s fun Deus fan-girling, this sort of tech is likely to be HIGHLY economically disruptive. It will send broke all the manufacturers, thereby buggering up maintenance of existing equipment and infrastructure.
Deus is unlikely to be in a position to take up the slack as fast as conventional manufacturing collapses. So either he relinquishes control to make the new tech ubiquitous (assuming you can use these fabricators to make more fabricators) and evenly distributed geographically, or he faces supply chain problems on a scale hitherto undreampt-of, both for ingress of raw materials and egress of made goods.
Incidentally, Pander, you cannot imagine how much I adore you for giving me a genuine opportunity to use “hitherto undreampt-of”.
“While I’m sure it’s fun Deus fan-girling, this sort of tech is likely to be HIGHLY economically disruptive.”
All new tech is highly economically disruptive. Until the economy becomes used to it.
The automobile was highly economically disruptive to the horse and carriage industry.
The phone was highly disruptive to the telegraph.
VCRs were highly disruptive to the movie industry.
Streaming was also.
The internet was highly disruptive to A LOT of things in the economy.
“It will send broke all the manufacturers,”
I don’t know what this sentence means. I’m assuming you’re trying to say it will bankrupt other manufacturers. I guess other manufacturers will have to figure some other way to compete. Maybe the US could use its new FTL ship to eventually get Mass Fabs as well. Or maybe they’ll just no longer have to rely on places like China or other places that use slave labor/child labor/etc. Since Deus seems to have this production but still seems to hire all of Galytn to do work. Apparently Mass Fabs don’t make EVERYTHING – it just winds up meaning the population gets a higher level of education to learn how to do things like… maintain Mass Fabs, create schematics for Mass Fabs creations, etc.
“thereby buggering up maintenance of existing equipment and infrastructure.”
“Deus is unlikely to be in a position to take up the slack as fast as conventional manufacturing collapses. ”
These two sentences cannot exist at the same time. Either Deus CAN flood the market with cheap, affordable, high tech goods to the point where other manufacturers can no longer stay in business, or Deus is unable to take up this slack as other conventional manufacturing collapses. It can’t be both.
“So either he relinquishes control to make the new tech ubiquitous”
I don’t really understand this sentence or why he would have to relinquish control over a new tech he possesses, especially when he’s using it to sell goods to other nations who WANT TO BUY THOSE GOODS. :) Also using the mass fab to help build Mozambique’s infrastructure for a fraction of what it cost him to build Galytn’s infrastructure.
Remember, he’s also using the new tech to build up the infrastructure not only Galytn and Mozambique, but any future nations that want to petition to join his African economic superpower. Without war even. They just can’t compete with him and it is more advantageous to join him.
However there ARE things like tarriffs, btw. To make it more expensive for Deus to sell to other nations, while still keeping those nations’ manufacturing companies competitive.
“(assuming you can use these fabricators to make more fabricators)”
I somehow doubt you can. Most likely Deus just studied the two he bought and learned how to manufacture them on Earth. So they’re now technically…. Earth technology. :) IF you COULD mass fab MassFabs, then the seller on Fracture Station wouldnt have been able to get all that much for them. Supply and Demand, etc.
“or he faces supply chain problems on a scale hitherto undreampt-of,”
Only in the short term. And Deus thinks long-term. This will show the US that Deus can do exactly what he claims in Operation Cha-Ching. Which will net him $300 billion. Also Deus now has carved a path to the ocean, so he can use that for shipping.
Oh also he has a super who can make portals working for him. Not that he would rely on a single super for a single point of failure like that.
“both for ingress of raw materials and egress of made goods.”
He already carved his path to the ocean for this purpose.
“Incidentally, Pander, you cannot imagine how much I adore you for giving me a genuine opportunity to use “hitherto undreampt-of”.”
I live to serve, Bikkie :) Glad you could cross that one off your bucket list. So few opportunities exist to be able to use certain terms – seize them when you can.
Deus needs an enemy. One with some talent. I, for example, if I got my hands on a fabber, would immediately use it to build a Von Neumann machine. The Death Robots I would send up against the supers would exist primarily to field test, train and refine the machine mind intended to be the soul of the VNM. Eventually I might change my mind and upload myself into it, but only if there were two and one reminded me a lot of Dabbler.
Bikkie…. are you Cave Johnson?
“All new tech is highly economically disruptive.”*
*Useful tech only. Your miles may vary. Usefulness may be discounted due to cost, public relations, inferior competitors, or theft by Thomas Edison.
“*Useful tech only”
That was implied, but yes. :)
“Usefulness may be discounted due to cost, public relations, inferior competitors, or theft by Thomas Edison”
+1 internet for this :)
On second reading of your reply I think our key point of difference is on whether a mass fabber can make a mass fabber. I have interpreted it as a sort of 3d photocopier. If it isn’t that then things play out very differently, as you say.
To prevent infinite duplication, my method would be for each mass fab unit to get the equivalent of a space-blockchain serial number that is checked via a space-net connection to the master list (owned by Space-Apple). Any new copy of an existing machine will have a duplicate serial number of the original unit and will fail activation when it tries to log in and add itself to the registry. Either that, or the activation attempt will trip the ‘unregistered unit’ command in the OS that will ‘brick’ the machine by ordering the fabber to create a brick of C4 with a timer set to zero.
.. okay OB Juan, that’s actually a pretty brilliant workaround idea from a business standpoint.
REALLY GOOD POST!
I thought of another security idea that would be unbreakable when trying to use a fabber to build a copy of itself. And you don’t need to go through third part verification. Each machine when originally created at the factory has a specific security component built from a number of quantum computing Qbit modules. These are encoded with a specific key required to operate the machine. If someone tells the fabber to copy all of its own components, it could create another security module down to the atom. BUT, it could never copy the quantum entanglement and superposition states of the electrons of those atoms. The new security module key code would be blank and the newly assembled fabber would not be able to function.
I can see that being done.
I like this, but it’s nigh-impossible to use software to prevent hardware from working. Even if the quantum key were intricately mixed with the software, sufficiently motivated engineers could just throw away the original firmware/chip entirely and just write their own. Of course, that may require existing quantum-level fabrication capability, in which case they could likely make their own printer in the first place.
But there’s always a sufficient black market for someone with access to provide a cracked version. Getting around that would require keying each machine to the individual fabricator to identify the leak for punishment, but even then you just end up with a drugged/unconscious/terminal patsy taking the fall.
It is sad just how committed the human race is to scarcity. When presented with an opportunity to solve it, you respond with “How can I deny this to others?” and “How can I use it to control others?”
“It is sad just how committed the human race is to scarcity.”
Probably because scarcity is a fundamental element of the universe, while abundance is not.
And it will be that way as long as the universe constantly progresses from order to entropy, with only small pockets of order within a chaotic swirl.
Even if there were (as far as humanity is concerned) unlimited food or goods, there is still a scarcity in the people who are able to perform services. There’s also scarcity in unique goods.
Yes, Deus could Mass Fab the ash tray that the little girl gave him… but doing so – making even a completely accurate and indistinguishable copy of that ashtray – would not have the same value as the ashtray the girl him.
If I am on Ebay and bidding on a guitar used by Elvis Presley in his last show before he died, that guitar has more value to me than just the fact that it’s a guitar, or any specific element of that guitar. That guitar has scarcity. There is only one like it.
If I buy a print of the Mona Lisa, it is not the same as having that actual portrait of the Mona Lisa that’s hanging in the Louvre.
The United Federation of Planets, despite having no money on Earth, still needs to have storehouses of gold-pressed latinum (which cannot be replicated apparently), in order to trade with other species. Remember the episode of DS9 where Jake wants a Willy Mays baseball card to give to his father, and winds up annoying and begging Rom into using his life savings of 5 bars of gold-pressed latinum during the auction? Jake is a sanctimonious piece of work. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSW8WndZcYU
That’s why the human race is committed to scarcity – because it’s realistic to acknowledge that scarcity will always exist in one way or another.
Regardless of whether scarcity is a fundamental property of the universe, we should be trying to move away from it whenever possible, not clutching it tightly just to try to maintain power over others.
Exactly.
I don’t think a Mass Fabber can make a Mass Fabber.
Even if it’s theoretically possible, I don’t think the original designers would have invented something with infinite duplication possibility because it’s simply bad for business.
why not?
you can 3-D print the parts to make a 3-D printer,
and further it is a good business model for a society that is mostly post scarcity and all these machines do is create copies of something programmed into them.
All the seller is selling is the ground work,
of course there is the other factors.
you can make parts to build them, but having the equipment and know how to maintain them, fix them, and put the parts together properly is a whole other set of skills and possibly equipment.
you can sell cars, the parts for cars, and someone could buy the tools and equipment to build cards. That doesn’t mean the manufacturer doesn’t have better equipment.
for all we know Deus has the alien’s version of the at home toy edition and has to use local materials to reassemble, and not the massive exotic matter localizer and reconfiguration models used to mass produce the equipment needed for refined work or specialized materials for star ships or sub-corona plasma scoops or whatever that the aliens’ manufacturer’s have.
but even then its advanced enough to make massive changes to Earth, sort of (with some changes) like giving someone in the 1700s access to a 3-D printer (doesn’t compare to a factory assembly line, but it will give them a leg up if they can get the right materials to make a bunch of pistols and other simple equipment with it).
“why not?
you can 3-D print the parts to make a 3-D printer,”
You’re sort of proving my point that Deus can reverse engineer the Mass Fabs, you realize right?
“and further it is a good business model for a society that is mostly post scarcity and all these machines do is create copies of something programmed into them.”
It is an AWFUL business model to sell a product which can completely reproduce itself without having to learn anything about how it works. Any seller would only ever sell ONE of them. In fact, it’s likely that there would be at least one person who would buy one, then use it to start mass fabbing mass fabs and start GIVING them away.
So instead of actually making anything off of the creation of the Mass Fabs, you sell one then have no further business. That’s a TERRIBLE business model. One sale then you’re out of business?
as stated above, it is unlikely they can spit out something their own size or bigger given their design in the strip above, so parts of them to assemble.
and also, people pay for work.
you can make your own cheese burger, french fries, salads, buy the components at the store and make it at home, so then why are restaurants and fast food joints billion dollar businesses,
same with any product you can buy the parts for and make yourself,
sure you are going to get that guy priding himself on it, but then the ten trillion customers who don’t want to put in the effort, the maintenance on the equipment, the power supply, and just want the thing now.
also the possibility of warranties, franchise agreements, and so forth; Deus may be out of the legal loops on that but like how you can’t repair your own playstation *as BS as that is*, businesses buying these things can have contracts with each other on what they can and can’t do with them. Hell Deus smuggled this stuff to Earth after buying it.
and as my last post on the exact same topic, there also always the possibility of built in limitations, there may be a few specifci components the fabricator can’t make to the right quality, especially if this is a feed in the material type and not the type to make matter from energy or exotic mass.
sorry to make the specific molecular sensors and anchors you need draconium, which isn’t available on Earth and our company has minin rites for a great deal of it.
but hey, maybe Deus knows where there is a stock pile of element X or something close enough for what he needs it for, I mean sure they won’t work at the same speed, or the same precision, or able to make the same hyper tech equipment that needs those stats, but he can still assemble much more basic Earth tech with his bootleg versions.
This is exactly why consumer right-to-repair legislation needs to be passed. Planned obsolescence benefits only the producer, it’s a horrible economic policy in the short term (especially for the lower/middle class) and a worse environmental policy in the long run.
“as stated above, it is unlikely they can spit out something their own size or bigger given their design in the strip above, so parts of them to assemble.”
You’re not disproving my idea that Deus reverse engineered the Mass Fabs.
“and also, people pay for work.”
I’m not sure what this has to do with reverse engineering.
I’m assuming maybe you’re talking about this as in ‘even in a post-scarcity society, people will still pay for work.’ Which isnt really about reverse engineering but about a response to someone else who might have said that Mass Fabs can destroy an economy. Which I don’t think it would.
And also that’s why I find the Star Trek Federation economy to be completely stupid btw. Completely doing away with money. Why would anyone be a waiter in Sisko’s dad’s restaurant if they don’t need money. They’re obviously going to need money. To pay for services if nothing else. Or to pay for unique items. Like an authentic Willy Mays baseball card. :)
The Ferengi literally make more sense in every respect, economy-wise.
It wasn’t about being able to reverse engineer it so much as the whole anyone could buy one and make more of them by replicating rhe parts to make more, so why would anyone buy more than one.
and the original owner keep supply and demand.
others have given ideas on how, I have stated things such as user agreements, voiding warrantees, the replicator has to use material it is given and some parts require specific hard to acquire alloys *like trying to 3-D a high grade circuit board when all you can use is plastic, its not happening*.
but also the idea that the ones who will replicate and assemble their own will just do it for personal use, and the average consumer isn’t going to want to make their own replicator, hell most may not even want to buy one, they will pay for the lack of hassle *hence comparisons to things like fast food or going out to eat, even if you can buy the ingredients and make it yourself*.
hell the user agreement may even cover franchisee options.
Deus clearly would be working outside the usual circles for trade politics.
Also yes federation economy is one the more fantasy like aspects of star trek and was explained once as a merit system…which is just currency with extra steps to be honest.
Everything you’ve mentioned is possible, although not mentioned or alluded to in the comic at all.
Plus considering the person SELLING the Mass Fabs was doing something illegal by selling them to Deus (who was NOT doing anything illegal by buying them), I highly doubt that the seller was invested in covering any franchise options or user agreements.
I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that it was illegal to sell Deus mass fabrication technology. He was on Fracture, and had the means to travel there. He wouldn’t be allowed to take it through a portal on Fracture to some destinations, but it wasn’t illegal for him to own it, purchase it, or for someone to sell it to him.
Remember, there are many humans in the Grrlverse that aren’t Terran. The limitations aren’t based on species, but on cultural development.
Deus is saying that he wants to keep his plans non-threatening to the first world nations and major military powers until he is properly established as an empire that can peacefully absorb them. Displaying non-conventional weapons and supers is one thing, but showing manufacturing methods that they can’t match and will snowball them later on from technology that can be spun as cheating is odd.
wonder if mass-fab has a “my first print” Manuel
probably need the space-net open-fab design bookmark: fab-ulous
LOL nice pun I’m sure they have advanced AI operating system those things are creating the matter as it goes I doubt Win 10 would be up to the task LOL.
(robotic voice)Massfab: “What would you like to create?” Deus: “Here’s the design details and parameters what is the hardest material can this be printed in?” Massfab: “Titanium/duranium alloy sir” yeah not creepy at all if my 3D printer started talking it’d be outside and on fire LOL.
Dont most current 3d printers have a little tugboat as a first print tutorial?
Yes it’s called a “benchie” also a calibration cube to check if it’s printing the same distance in X,Y. and Z axis. Some include a cat, dog, and/or owl. There is a huge library of printable things online you’re only limited by the size of your printer and how willing you are to tinker… a lot…
If you’re a hobbyist type and have a fair amount of free time (who doesn’t since covid) I would recommend buying one there’s a few decent ones out there for under $200USD and the plastic filament is fairly cheap and varied $10-25 USD depending on what you buy.
(wonder if mass-fab has a “my first print” Manuel)
I have a feeling that tutorial would be in the Spanish language version of the document.
And one you have him printed out, would you use him do all of your Manuel labor?
This pun is so bad, I’m naming my 3D printer in its honor.
As it happens, for many decades I thought Manual Labor was a Spanish or Mexican gentleman :P
I still haven’t removed my 3D printer from the box. I’ve had one for 5 months now because I’m planning on setting it up once I move.
Creality Halot Lite Resin 3D Printer with High Precise Integral Light Source with 8.9” 4K Monochrome LCD Screen Dual Cooling & Filtration System.
Bought it for only $230, right before the prices shot up through the roof. I just checked – it now costs over $500. Resin is supposed to be better than Filament from what I’ve researched.
That’s why I’m staying away from resin printers for now way too costly in both the machine and the resin maybe after the shipping issue is cleared up (damn covid hysteria) as it is I’m disabled and I have to care for my 88y/o father I have a lot of home time I had to find something to keep my mind busy! Bad enough he keeps asking me to print out “boobie” statues for him LOL. Resin is better in many respects however the process is very complicated after cleaning off the support pieces the parts have to be rinsed in acetone and then cleaned in alcohol to give them a clean and smooth look and feel where the filament tends to have a ring effect to the surfaces.
The advantage to filament is there are many different materials that can be printed with I’m focused on PLA filament right now because it’s the easiest to print with once I’ve got the bugs worked out I’ll switch to PETG and ABS/ASA once I get the hang of that I’ll revamp my printer to handle TPU, PP(soda bottle plastic) and nylon those require much higher temps and special surface to print on. Plus you can get filament with carbon fiber, steel, brass, copper, fiber glass, and so on mixed in to make it crazy strong or flexible TPU (rubber-ish plastic) you can print your own cell phone cases!
Because Title:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2570:_Captain_Picard_Tea_Order
I’d say Star Trek replicators are several steps ahead of massfab they build the items by layers while the replicator creates the item(s) whole and instantly usable.
If the bubble mail was soap based, wouldn’t that give bonuses to being grappled?
Referee: “Ok you two lets have a good clean fight!”
LOL sorry I couldn’t resist….
Max: “Will you PLEASE change back into your other outfit.”
Don’t listen to her, Dabs, that’s crazy talk!
Dabbler: “OK, if you insist. Of course, I’ll need to get out of this one first…”
Ducted fans have been studied since the 60’s when the US ARMY was thinking about using them for observation platforms. The real problem was that camera/radio technology advanced faster than the flight technology did and as a result it was cheaper to put cameras and radios on the platform rather than people.
The bigest limitation I see for ducted fan is the weight gain vs the operational performance improvement. Ducts are more efficient than open blade designs from a movement of air point of view. ducts also have less of a circulating vortex issue.
They are seeing uses in specific situations such as the Fenstrom ducted tail rotors on EuroCopters.
I’m not certain what I’m seeing in the first few panels. Is something being teleported in or out of the building? The gray-on-black background is confusing me a little.
It’s a bank of “Mass Fab” machines producing something. Going by the name and by common sci-fi ‘fabricator’ analogues, I suspect they’re a comparable concept to the 3D printers that our world has, but able to work far more quickly and precisely in far more materials.
Replicators. Aka molecular assembler tech as Deus did buy the latest stuff from Fracture station.
I’m curious if those Fabs are actually turning energy into matter (and if so, where is the Energy coming from?) or if they’re using precision teleportation to additively manufacture complex objects from existing material stocks.
Most likely teleporting in mass from a storage facility to then reassemble into the desired material and configuration. If it is tier 1 tech, if he got some tier 2 tech it might be converting exotic particles from another dimension into local matter then converting into buildanle materials and assembling them.
Bubble mail bikini doesn’t bother me at all. Unlike chainmail bikini which pretends to be armor, but is just about eye candy. If the outfit is honest about its job and it is being used for that purpose then there isn’t anything wrong with it. Any “armor” that makes the vitals more vulnerable is an offensive joke. Seduction equipment that gives bonuses to seduction is perfectly fine. Plus bubble mail is less likely to cause chaffing in uncomfortable locations than a chainmail bikini.
Amazon has been using ‘bubbles’ to protect items in their mail for years. This technically makes it Earth technology, and I hereby order Dabbler to cease its use immediately. (replacement with other clothing is optional).
So can we expect to have Sidney seeing the manufacturer tags on the machinery and being sent to Fracture station with a picture of Deus asking around if anyone sold him high tech equipment?
Syddles on intel-gathering? Are you KIDDING?
With someone maybe.
she does have truesight and the PPO and a really tough shield and the ability to fly and an innate ability to be distracting; downside is the latter comes with an inbuilt self-debuff
Sydney, of the Columbo school of investigation…
“I’m forever blowing bubbles…” Damn right I’d be blowing Daz’s bubbles and other things in between. . A “No Prize” to whoever gets this reference.
RIP Harpo Marx. <3
;) I’m getting to the age where if “I’m forever blowing bubbles…” it’s time to switch to disposable undies LMBO!
Ah… I changed heart meds I’m a bit loopie tonight LOL
Correction to the box-text commentary: At least now we know SOME OF what he was doing on Fracture Station.
For all we know ALL of those mass fabs came from the station he does still have that stargate setup lol.
“Is there a name for planes with rotors built into the wing for VTOL like a helicopter?”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_XV-5_Vertifan
More recently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilium_Jet
I think he meant the term for the category of rotor-wing aircraft. I’m fairly but not absolutely certain that rotor-wing aircraft does not include toy quadcopters because their rotors are not aerofoils (they rely entirely on deflection and do not exploit the Bernoulli effect for lift).
How about the Banshee from Starcraft?
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/AH/G-24_Banshee
It’s not technically a tilt rotor, but It would probably be classed somewhere in the Helecopter family since it doesn’t have wings as such.
Tiltrotor is the correct term though. The most famous real one is the Osprey, though there have been others throughout the last century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiltrotor
Alveolates — a group of protists — essentially have armor made out of bubbles.
Of course they’re all microscopic.
Are you trolling for nerd rage by asking how to classify that weird-ass holes-in-wings-with-fans thing you drew?
Aircraft with huge lift fan holes cut out of the wings are best described as, “bullshit.” Consider this fanholes cut through wings notion as an aviation counterpart to the way Hollywood mad science laboratory sets have useless Jacob’s Ladder spark gap toys for visual appeal. Holes in the wings means you need to make them bigger to get the same amount of wing surface, which increases drag, and the holes either become vulnerabilities or the builder has to further increase the mass of the vehicle by reinforcing them. It’s a design choice that may make some sense at smaller scales for drone toys, (likely to limit the number and exposure of tiny, breakable, parts) but, it’s a dubious idea which is used in comics and videogames mostly because it’s visually interesting.
If you want VTOL aircraft that are less fragile and high maintenance than helicopters, the options for things that are known to work are jump jets like the Harrier, tilt-rotors like the V-22 Osprey, and blimps. If you’ve noticed how much the F-35A has better range and maneuver capability than the F-35B though, VTOL always has its costs and problems. Perhaps try using a wingless rocket instead if you don’t like those choices? It’s easier to go faster if there’s no wings to make drag, and a big, shiny, flying penis that runs at a supersonic cruising speed sounds right for Deus trying to get from continent A to continent B without showing off that he can teleport.
That said, what we have there is ducted-fan propellers. You wouldn’t actually want them to be wing-penetrating, though, they should be on outriggers.
Those actors are not wet, they are oiled. Shooting any shower scene or swimming scene takes forever like any other scene, and exposure to that much water would make them look pruney and dull. Actors cannot be shown pruney and dull. So they oil them all up and pretend it’s water.
If you see them pull a shirt easily over the oil, this might be intentional, or it could be bad continuity editing. Either way, you bought the illusion.
Dave, actual water isn’t photogenic and doesn’t look well with all the light sources etc for film, so unless they’re literally shown under the shower or drinking, most water and wetness in films is lube, or sometimes oil (lotsa lube though). That will stain clothing, but it won’t make it hard to put it on, so their shoulder muscles are going great.
Oh you think that’s bad? Try to get a soaked men’s t-shirt OFF without help. Every time I try I get stuck halfway.
:>
Off of you? Or him?
:D
(in response to Maxima’s question in the last panel)
No. No she can’t.
Can a Massfab produce all needed components to make another Massfab?
It depends on how savvy the manufacturer is.
If he is dumb, the machine can make all its own parts and those can be used to build a new working one.
If he is moderately smart, each machine has its own unique activation code that must be verified by a login to the manufacturer database to see if it has already been used. (think Windows activation)
If he is really smart, each machine off the line has the activation code on an internal security module that uses a quantum key set up as an entangled value with the company server. Any attempt to copy the security module will fail because it is not possible to replicate the entangled information into the duplicate module. Also, attempting to read the quantum key will most likely disrupt the original value and render the first fabber useless. “Hello, this is customer support. How’s that? It’s not working? Didn’t you read the label? ‘NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE’. “
May depend on the materials and methods required to make a working Mass Fab. A current-tech 3D printer can produce all the framework parts to replicate itself, but still needs the user to supply certain items – high-temperature nozzles and/or lasers (depending on the printing technology), microscopic circuitry, etc. Assuming, also, that all of the constituent parts can be produced within the print volume for later assembly.
I think that is a variation on the Ducted fan concept of aircraft Dave, I remember reading about them in grade school many years ago.
Dabbler is really pushing it here… Frankly if I were Max, I’d be past the point of NJPing her with this change in wardrobe. This is neither the time nor the place for those kinds of shenanigans. It’s inappropriate precisely because it’s distracting and it makes a mockery of the seriousness of what’s being discussed.
Agreed, keeping up this (questionable) wardrobe joke is pointless. Unless we find out Dabbler (or other Archon member) is also running some stealth recon drones and this outfit is just a psyops distraction, this should definitely result in disciplinary action.
What is with the constant calls for discipline? The setting is America, Land of the Brave, Home of the Free, and yet whenever the characters show any independence, the response in the comments is punish! Mindrape! Throw them out, throw them in jail, turn them over to their enemies, kill them! What is wrong with you people?
Most of the members of Archon are there by choice. If mistreated, they can easily walk away, and find more lucrative offers. Dabbler, in particular, isn’t even military: she’s a civilian consultant.
You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth. Dabbler can do whatever she wants on her own time, including around the base for the most part, and I don’t much care. She already gets a ton of latitude in that regard, even given Archon’s quite lax culture overall. I’m all for her and the rest of the team being themselves and having fun.
But this is an official, critical mission, to the only other nation known to have significant superpowered assets, and a military partner with huge existing and potential contracts. Archon (and the larger US government) will either be partnering closely with or fighting this group, if not both in the long run, and a good relationship is vital. This is not a moment for screwing around.
Dabbler is there in her official capacity as Archon consultant, not as a private citizen, and has a duty to take this mission and its results seriously. But instead she’s goading her commanding officer and waltzing around naked (effectively) in front of a key partner’s entire leadership structure. She’s not only failing to take her job seriously while on the clock, she’s demonstrating an insulting level of disrespect for the whole situation, and actively undermining her own team’s focus. Any other member of the team acting like in the current situation would be disciplined if not fired immediately, and Dabbler doesn’t get a pass for being a succubus.
I’m not just talking about this page in particular, or your comment in particular. There’s just been a disturbing trend in the comments of expecting the characters to be treated like mindless, compliant tools, with no secrets or free will, just because they’re in a military organization. Again, any disciplinary action has to be weighed against their desire to be there. Unless you think Max is going to physically threaten them, they’re each powerful enough to just walk away, rather than accept any discipline the authority structure decides to subject them to.
I don’t think it’s clear whether or not this is an official Archon mission. Even if it is, they may wish to give the impression that it’s not. Maxima was invited to visit Galytn and see Deus’ projects. Dabbler is there because of Tom. I don’t think it’s clear why Kenya and Sydney are there.
It would be impossible to run a military organization without some respect for the chain of command, and a minimum level of operational and individual discipline / compliance. Archon is hugely flexible on these matters, and we’ve seen nearly all of the team get away with things that would get them booted from the more traditional branches. But Dabbler in particular is constantly crossing the line, often very publicly, and it undermines Archon’s public image and therefore effectiveness on the national and international stage.
Sure, Dabbler or any other member could walk, and there are undoubtedly many supers that chose not to join the team. Let ’em. But if they want to stick around and collect their massive paychecks, they have to accept that the flip side of that coin is being a team player who follows the team’s rules. And they’ve all signed contracts to that effect, presumably including Dabbler.
They could make even more massive paychecks in the private sector. They’re here because they want to be heroes.
Or just because they want to use their powers to fight and control others, with the support of the law, rather than against it.
You’re barking up the wrong tree. Nothing I said came anywhere near “expecting the characters to be treated like mindless, compliant tools, with no secrets or free will, just because they’re in a military organization.”
I’m referring to all the complaints about Sydney’s various secrets (undisclosed powers, location where she found the orbs, her glasses), or Xuriel lifting Xhosa straight from someone’s brain. The calls for discipline were ridiculously disproportionate, and I wouldn’t expect anyone to accept such discipline lying down, even if they had done something horribly wrong.
And there’s the basis for your entire argument, “people don’t want to be held accountable for their actions.” Of course not, but maintaining a functioning team / civilization requires it. Everyone on the team voluntarily agreed to be bound by Archon’s rules and chain of command, thereby giving up the right to just ignore them. If someone breaches those rules, the consequences have to follow or Archon’s just a bunch of thugs like all the vigilantes they warned about following the law.
No, the basis of my argument is that mindrape is not an acceptable response to anything, and it’s unreasonable to advocate for it, or expect anyone to accept it as a disciplinary tactic, no matter what they’ve done or agreed to.
I don’t think you understand the nature of what’s going on here. The way Dabbler is behaving here in her job as an Archon Consultant is like if a surgical nurse walked into the surgical room dressed like Lord Humungus from Mad Mad: Road Warrior while encouraging the surgeon to feel up the patient while the patient is under general anesthesia.
At some point in the past Dabbler had a tail prior to her time on Earth. Has it been retconned out of existence, or did it meet the same fate as the originals for her current cybernetic arm and eye? I vaguely remember it being said in the comments that she keeps a prosthetic one around for use on special occasions.
I think we last saw it on page 811. Rhuen claims in the comments that it’s detachable.
which it was in the older comic she was a guest in; Wereworld. don’t remember if DaveB has specified anything in comments in this comic.
She also had two sets of bewbies
Oh hey, would you look at that, Total Annihilation/Supreme Commander/Planetary Annihilation style nano-lathes. Cool.
….Juuuust a thought… Are we suuuure the Xevoarchy does not have an emergency Low-Jack on those things?
If I was someone who didn’t want ANY natives of a jerkwater pre-warp planet using Fabbers, I’d make it a manufacturing law that the schematics for antimatter bombs with 10 second timers are permanently uploaded in a hidden file on the hard drive -Along with an automatic print on recept of secret code.
“Hey officer joe, we suspect planet X has got some illegal Fabbers!” “Roight! beam a bomb code at the planet and see if anything goes off.”
“….Juuuust a thought… Are we suuuure the Xevoarchy does not have an emergency Low-Jack on those things?”
The Xevoarchy’s concern is about the seller violating the law under which they are subject to, not the buyer violating a law under which they are NOT subject to.
Also I think blowing up pre-FTL planets that manage to get their hands on advanced tech would be against the very point of the ban on not selling advanced tech to pre-FTL civilizations, which is presumably for the pre-FTL civilization’s own good (much like the theoretical purpose of the Prime Directive).
The aircraft system you are wondering about is “ducted fan”.
Here’s a link to a small article on it:
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/27416/are-ducted-fans-more-efficient
New and exciting sources of revenue indeed
A small tidbit about the VTOL planes from Avatar the US military requested the layout for those planes from the movie it was announced during one of the many promotions by “third party” commenters after the movie came out with today’s tech with quad-copters AKA “drones” (any remotely controlled vehicle is a drone in my opinion) it is very possible to build such a plane however it would be as stealthy as a hand grenade LOL.
the only production non helo vtol I know of is the v-22 osprey. They’re usually just referred to as VTOL in fiction, Fallout calls them vertibirds.
I suppose the f-35 as well, but it’s different
Hmm, what happened to the comments on the new page?
Can remember making a comment or three, but there is now no longer even a button to view comments…
Never mind, the Comment Counter is not there but the comments themselves are
Oh wow, the comment counter (between the {Prev and Next} buttons) is now gone from here as well
D&D second edition used Comliness.