Grrl Power #679 – Spree!
I’ve been trying to figure out what someone from a relatively low tech civilization could offer as currency to a higher tech one. I’m sure whole papers (or at least blog posts) have been written about this topic, but there’s only a few things I can think of, and some are dependent on the tech disparity.
If the high tech civilization has not just 3D printers, but something like matter replicators where you can build crap from the molecule up, the only things of real value I can think of would be information, power, labor and entertainment. The only physical material that would have intrinsic value would be things the replicators can’t recreate, like matter with a half-life shorter than, I don’t know, 40 years or something, like plutonium 241. Or maybe energon chips or zero point modules. Then that stuff would have potential value. Not that you’d want a bunch of loose change in your pocket made out of Californium 252. It would be asinine to use as currency.
If a civ does have matter replicators, information would still be valuable, like the plans to print your own Nintendo Switch, or the high tech civilization equivalent. In fact, if you had a civ with matter replicators and unlimited power, information like that would be nearly the only thing of value, I think.
If an advanced civ didn’t have matter replicators, then just about anything could be barterable. Gold has no intrinsic value. It’s a great conductor of heat and electricity and is nearly chemically inert, so it definitely has its uses. Humans generally go bonkers for it, but there’s every chance that an alien civilization could value some random material like aluminum simply because their planet has less of it, or because the aluminum cartel has told everyone that aluminum is desirable, the same way diamonds are here on Earth. Again, diamonds are useful in tools and other applications, but have no intrinsic value other than that we’ve decided as a race that they’re valuable.
Power is obvious. Any civilization would need power, (and let’s assume that the laws of thermodynamics hold true no matter your tech level) unless they’re at a point where they know how to generate so much that it’s moot. Dyson sphere level civilizations would have to be pretty embarrassed with themselves if they needed more power than 100% of a sun. Or… 99%, depending on the efficiency of their solar panels.
Then there’s labor. If your civilization has matter replicators, they probably have robot labor. I mean, we’re getting to that point. We have machines building cars, and in a few years those cars will be driving themselves. Amazon’s warehouses are full of industrial roomba things that carry stuff to and from shelves. Eventually all uber drivers and DoorDash drivers and UPS drivers will be replaced with robots, and we don’t even have matter replicators. But, if a civ has had a robot uprising like in Dune and their robots are no more advanced than roombas, then labor is something a low tech civ can trade on.
The only other thing of value a lower tech civilization can offer is entertainment. I drew Deus picking up a pack full of bars of something. I was thinking rhodium when I drew it, but honestly, let’s pretend those are fancy boxes full of thumb drives with terrabytes of human on human porn. Maybe some Hollywood movies and Buffy and Cheers and The Bob Newhart Show too.
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Some of the entertainment talks has be reminded of Steven Universe, entertainment might be a double edged sword for some races.
Gems (alien race with gemstone core and hard light projection bodies) don’t need sleep and have indefinite life spans. We’ve two examples on the show so far where they get into a human show and just marathon it over and over again. Amethyst with “Li’l Butler” and Peridot and Lapis with “Camp Pining Hearts”. They will literally just sit there with no need for food, water, or sleep and just binge watch the shows over and over again until something/someone else comes along to distract them from it.
Captain, we managed to render the whole civilization docile with weapon grade soap operas
How Steven will win the co-operation of White Diamond LoL.
Just picturing him wheeling a tv and DVD player into her giant room and turning it on for one episode.
“there’s more?, show us and we’ll help you.”
Plant life, Dirt, Seedlings, Genetic samples, Some form of Renewable life support, Cultural Information and Art.
This is a universe full of life, sure that life will look different on different worlds, but life its self has no monetary value unless its to xenobiologists. Hardly a standard to use for universal exchange.
Let’s say for instance I am an alien from the planet Whim, where we feed exclusively on naturally growing crystals and have indefinite lifespans and treat existence like one big role playing adventure using mana constructs.
So we visit another planet, the local grass, dandelions, and that pile of compost have no value as we have no demand or curiosity regarding it as culturally and biologically we have no drive to be curious about such things.
However the last thing you said would be valuable, new experiences and art to get new ideas for new games from.
However, while there could be a want to purchase these things, they can’t be regarded themselves as the backing of a currency.
This seems to be the big dilemma and disparency I am seeing in the comments. Separating value between (used to back currency/used as currency) vs (I would like to have that but don’t want to barter for it as we have a massive interplanetary commerce to consider here).
none of these are intended as a backing of a currency but for trade to interested parties for a usable common currency, or commodity.
dirt often posses foreign objects, and dirt from a life giving planet could poses value to the right people. Like a space station.
Plant life is valuable to many not all true. Its importance is high to a big group however.
biologists, zoologists ect would love to get their hands claws tentacles on seedlings and samples of other life for their own uses. more common traders would see no use for it yes.
Cultural information and art is the more generalized commodity yes but can have all in all a lower potential value but a wider audience than targeted items like the others.
Biological samples could be hugely valuable, though probably not as a currency, for the simple fact that organisms have very useful properties or chemical processes that may be difficult or impossible to duplicate artificially. Biomimicry has resulted in some amazing technological advances based on only Earth specimens; imagine what could be done if scientists (human and alien) could draw from the galactic catalog. Acquiring, cultivating, and copying samples with useful properties can easily transform or even replace global industries.
For example, most food on Earth is fertilized with artificially-produced nitrogen; industrial nitrogen production accounts for an estimated 3% of our entire world’s energy usage. One of the proposed uses of quantum computing is to figure out the complex chemical process wherebynitrogenase, an enzyme produced by a bacteria found in various plant roots (e.g. corn), produces nitrogen with far, far less energy.
Aside from the massive energy savings, what would be the worth of an alien moss (for example) that farmers could just sprinkle on their field and have it re-fertilize the soil indefinitely without interfering with the crop? If it was also pest- and mold-proof, prevented weeds without becoming invasive, etc?
For just about any problem we can think of, nature often has an elegant (and superior) solution.
Sorry, nerd here, and one who got stuck a bit on earth values.
1. St@rTr3k like matter replicators don’t work one molecular, but on quantum level, because they replicate atoms and proceed arranging them into molecular structures = substances and objects.
2. Quantum level replicators have an insane energy requirement, because the energy stored within an atom equals that of a mini nuke. Creating, dissolving and transfering the energies required for such a task for but 100g of matter, could easily wipe out entire cities if something went wrong.
3. Creating stable long term matter using replicator technology, which has the same properties as native matter even if stressed, probably is close to impossible to achive.
4. There is a step-by-step development towards those perfect replicators:
a. 3D Printing
b. Molecule mixing 3D printer; creating basic substances from liquid solutions.
c. Feedstock 3D printer; creating substances from elemental matter feeders.
d. Transformation 3D printer; creating elemental matter through transforming other matter.
e. Transferal 3D printer; dissolving matter ( into quantum stream ) to directly create other matter.
f. Short term replicator; creating temporary matter from energy such as used for holo decks.
g. Basic replicator; permanent yet simple energy to matter conversion.
h. Perfect replicator; permanent indistinguishable energy to matter conversion.
There has be a lot discussion about type b and c object creators, which I believe to be a reasonable assumption; even if that insane level of techology of an “h” Type would exist, anything beyond type d would probably be risky overkill and never be used.
And this would mean that raw elements should have value.
Other than that, everybody who has seen 0rv1lle, should have noticed that the topic of value was touched in the episode about “an advanced civilisation, which wouldn’t even speak to the sentient animals of the galaxy and put them in a zoo instead, because entertainment is the highest goods and sitcoms never got invented”.
So just because we don’t see the value things hold for others, doesn’t mean they are worthless. Even Sydneys couple of bucks could be worth a lot for somebody, such as collectors of items of foreign cultures or simply because the DNA of hundres of people got stuck to the paper.
Dollar bills are made of a cotton-linen blend, they’re not actually paper, they’re cloth.
yep “rag paper” is fun, and a thing armature counterfeiters from other countries forget sometimes.
And some are straight up plastic
1. No, they do not. There are specific plot points related to this. Quantum level resolution data on an object actually specifically breaks the laws of physics. That’s why the Transporters need a ‘Heisenberg compensater.” to compensate for the law of physics it violates.
2. Again, no. Potential energy from a fission reaction is not the same thing here. Because matter or energy can never be destroyed, only transformed. This means I can produce matter by inputting enough energy, because breaking matter releases energy and math always works both ways, but it does not mean my replicator is a nuclear bomb waiting to go off.
3. More no. Physics is fun. If I replicate my self a roll of toilet paper, its going to stay a roll of toilet paper. It’s not going to evaporate magically because it ‘knows’ it was replicated. It’s there, its a roll of toilet paper, it’ll keep being that until some outside force makes it not.
4. You rambled so much nonsensical here there’s not really anything to contradict. You jumped from one bad conclusion to another with no justifications, and little reason, while overlooking major issues.
You seem to be under some serious misconceptions of the science behind this stuff. The difference between the kind of 3D printing we do now, and molecular scale printing of discrete object like a replicator does is so vast it’s barely even worth thinking of them as related processes.
They’ve got as much in common as a beacon fire and your cellphone. Sure they are both communication tools, but….
Hi TypoNinja,
thanx for going this deep into the theorie. However:
1. I didn’t know about the Heisenberg compensater, but my whole point is the insane requirement to create atoms.
2. I am not talking nukes, I am talking about the energy levels released in atoms when broken down.
3. Thus far, most attempts of artificially creating atoms ( through particle accelerators ) resulted in instable constructs and elements. Creating matter that does not degrade after some time should prove a challenge, an I never said it would dissolve into nothing. Usually one or both of two things would happen: 1. The transformation into something else, 2. the release of energy in one form or another.
4. You are absolutely right, and again, thats exactly the point; this level of technology, and the steps in between, can’t be compared at all and are insanely far apart.
The reason I chose this formulation was to pick up some of the discussions floating around here, not to provide a do it yourself manual for say, transforming sunlight corpuscles into sandwiches. ;-)
The thing is that, because said technology would be too insane, feedstock type 3D printers should be around for a very long time, and harvesting raw elements therefore should hold value.
1. TypoNinja’s entire point was that Star Trek replicators explicitly don’t create atoms. The show had it as a limitation to preven people copiers from being built and the supplementary materials show they actually have a tank with an optimised blend of common atoms to use for the replicator.
2. Atoms don’t normally spontaneously break down and, even when they do, they split into smaller atoms. The energies involved are minuscule per atom and only an idiot would market a device with a detectable risk of causing a cascade fission reaction in food.
3. Not at all; experimental fusion reactors produce stable helium all the time. You’ve missed the point of most particle accelerators though: they are explicitly trying to make stuff which we already know is unstable, like ultra-heavy elements or, in the case of the large hadron collider, individual subatomic particles to, in a very broad sense, find out what happens next. No-one is bombarding manganese plates with fast xenon atoms to make gold because the energy and material inputs are worth more than the net value of any gold you could extract.
4. What the feth is a “sunlight corpuscle?” And don’t give me the definition of the words, I know what they both mean. I want to know what you think they mean when conjoined like that.
We’ve overlooked something that Deus, at least, is in a position to use as trade material currently.
Artifacts.
‘I understand your church/government/faction has a keen interest in recovering the since it was lost on Earth ago. It so happens I came across it not too long ago, and am willing to let you have it in exchange for certain commodities, trade agreements, and, of course, a suitably large pile of ‘
And apparently, putting things in between ‘these’ things.. > < makes them disappear when you post.. argh.
the *insert artifact name here* since
pile of *currency widely used in the part of the galaxy that covers both Earth and the Fracture*.
presently amused at the scene in my head.
Sydney and Deus just casually walk past each other
“Deus.” *little nod*
“Miss Scoville.” *little nod*
Continue walking as if it’s normal.
Vale: “You do realise who just walked past?”
Deus: “Yes, and I’m not drawing attention to it.”
A few moments later…
Sydney: “Wait… Deus? How the everliving fuckcrumpets did he get here!!!? He must have a wormhole dealy!!! I can get home!!! … Where’d he go?” *insert long string of curses*
i could see that happening.
maybe a small difference of him asking vale to keep track of her for him just in case.
I’m REALLY rooting for “Deus gets stuck there, and Sydney rescues him”. To me that would make the coincidence of them both being there excusable.
I’m not sure it IS a coincidence. Someone else commented that Deus might have hidden a tracker (Technological or magical) in her Rebreather unit, and he may be using THAT to set the coordinates for his Wormhole Can-opener device.
Sydney hasn’t used her rebreather since the Pool Incident that awoke her green ball
But she is supposed to still carry the rebreather, according to Maxima. Still, Deus seemed to know where he was going, given the shopping bag, so he doesn’t seem to have been going by her location alone.
Except Deus is prepped for a shopping trip, not a rescue mission. (And equipping the rebreather with an interstellar ranged tracking beacon would be crazy prepare even for him.)
I run a game in a universe I created. All the worlds that are not yet up to the standards of the ruling power (able to fly to the end of their system and back and survive) are protected. The main items that are traded for from low tech worlds (not yet up to standard) are things like art, entertainment, and raw materials. World has gold on it, gold has value to other worlds out there. New ideas, a movie that was not made on any other world would be sold fairly quickly. While at the same time an actor from several different worlds might meet with another on of his duplicates and team up for a movie.*shrug* many possibilities here.
Just had a mental picture of Arnold Schwarzenegger starring in an alien version of “Alien” or “Predator”
He was in Predator.
In the Alien version, he IS the predator
Exactly. Role Reversal FTW.
Just a comment on the question “what someone from a relatively low tech civilization could offer as currency” Raw elements would always work. A 3d printer or matter replicator that can build things from the molecule on up still needs raw atoms to work with. You cant just suck in air and use that to create whatever you want unless you can literally create atoms by deconstructing other atoms for their constituent protons, neutrons and electrons. If you want something made of steel you are going to need some raw iron and carbon atoms. Rare elements will still be rare elements, and therefore valuable. The energy required to smash atoms apart and create new atoms is enormous so even if you CAN do it you probably couldn’t do it economically. Thats essentially the reverse of a nuclear reaction, so the energy input required should be essentially the same as the energy output of a nuclear reactor that consumes the same total mass of plutonium or uranium 235. Nuclear reactors actually put out enormous energy and consume only very tiny quantities of plutonium 239 or U 235. Manufacturing your own atoms on the spot through forced nuclear fission is not likely to be economical for any race that doesn’t have infinite energy. Classical physics tells us perpetual motion is not a thing, so I don’t believe in infinite energy.
as a geologist it also occurred to me there are minerals and gemstones that are rare because of the environment they occur in, minerals that only exist because life changes the environment. also that might be very rare because of the process like opal, fire agate, picture stone jasper. alien worlds might have something similar but not exact. high quality fire and blue opals would be very hard to match.
Pearls are probably unique to Earth too.
Hell, petroleum, coal, and all other fossil fuels may be unique to earth because other planets may not have had the same geological processes that allowed them to form in the first place.
@mike unique for exact chemical composition & appearance, certainly. But the basic methodology for getting rid of irritants isn’t very complicated, I’d be surprised if there were not other creatures that produced pearl-like objects.
I’ve been wondering if Rebecca Sugar is going to use this actually. I want to see a Gem whose gem is crystallized smog.
What I would think of taking from earth: Art, literature, music, biological origin materials such as types of alcohol, pearls, coral.
Something to consider for all talking about biological rarity.
Series Context.
In this series, Earth has been a tourist destination for 5000+ years it seems. Chances are anything of interest to xenobiologists has already been sampled.
Anything rare by this point would have to be modern, so pretty much just entertainment tech and art.
chances are anything biological they liked, they have taken samples back to duplicate by this point. I mean Earth is so common a tourist destination one night club showed up like 2 aliens in it not counting Dabbler and the tourism board has talks with the secret supernatural council of spooky or whatever.
I love the style of this comic.
“To the horror of the international banking association, and most jewelers, the element thulium proved to be the base of the galactic economy, not silver or gold, and for excellent reasons. Steel was stronger, platinum prettier, aluminum lighter, silver a better conductor, and arsenic tastier. In point of fact, there wasn’t a single property that the metal held which another element didn’t do better, faster, or cheaper. The stuff was virtually useless, but extremely rare, which made it the prefect currency.”
-From Illegal Aliens by Nick Pollotta & Phil Foglio
DaveB…Intrinsic value does not mean what you seem to think it means. Its common usage is in finance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance)
The more general definition, the “Intrinsic theory of value”, is based on the costs involved in producing an item:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_theory_of_value
Even by the “common sense” definition, i.e. “Inherent utility”, the materials you listed have intrinsic value because, as you yourself stated, they have useful properties.
A Dyson sphere is kinda… well embarrassing. (Spinning) Black holes are where it’s at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulCdoCfw-bY
I’d really like to see the origin story for Deus’ wealth and perspective. As revealing as his Macroeconomics interview was, it was still a presentation calculated to self-promote, and possibly to bang C.C. YMMV on how well it did the former, but I like to think the latter worked.
Sooo…
I just realized: If Sydney is fifty something days in the future, this whole almost meeting in passing but not quite thing would have never happened.
He’s at the station more than two months before Sydney…
Oh; I figured that his pack was holding some of the items he’d taken from that vault, seeing as extremely complex & powerful “magical” properties are likely something that a replicator can’t just churn out…
Nnnooo…, I don’t think so. Sydneys’ point in space/time is going to have to had been directly related to the space/time coordinates she started from. The same coordinates that Deus and Vale started from. I think.
She needs a plumbus? Is there a relation to lead to that? The chemical symbol for lead is Pb, coming from the Latin plumbum.
It’s a Rick And Morty reference
Yep, still peeved at Deus holding the bag like that without clipping it shut to distribute the weight across multiple connection points.
Hahaha I’m rereading and I never noticed the banner before! xD “Spas Kataz” XD XD I totally get that ATHF reference. ;3
Yep, STILL irked about the bag.