Grrl Power #360 – Chalking up
Sydney leveraging possibly one of the most common tropes in sci-fi and fantasy writing – If the hero doesn’t know who one or more of their parents are, it’s bound to be a plot device. Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, Luke Skywalker, Peter Quill, Raven (of Azarath), Jupiter… Ascending… I could google her last name but I don’t care and you guys know who I’m talking about.
The usual exception to this rule is Disney movies. Not Pixar or Marvel ones, Disney Princess movies. Belle, Ariel, Jasmine, and Pocahontas all have dead mothers, Cinderella and Snow White are orphans (so are the Frozen sisters, but they knew their parents). Tiana (of the Princess and the Frog) has a dead dad, but he lived long enough for her to know him. The rest have both parents living but that’s a weird track record for a company that makes family movies. I know most of those movies are based on fairy tales so you can kind of blame the source material but it’s not like they don’t make changes to the stories and characters, so maybe Walt had a boner for dead moms.
This page was supposed to start with a panel of Sydney and the recruits looking down from the cheap seats at Max, Arianna and Zeph on stage wondering what was taking so long and then Harem tells her that “hurry up and wait” is the real motto of the military, but there wasn’t space so just imagine that exchange happened as a way of subtlety poking fun at my own pacing.
This was an interesting page to draw in that it has nearly every major member of the the team that’s been introduced so far, Arc-SWAT, LIGHT, and SPARQ, and a few that haven’t. The notable exception being the General, who I guess is in DC today.
I tried googling Xtapolapocetl, as well as Ixtapalapacetl, Xtapolapacoatl and some other variants, and I came across one of those situations where google utterly fails, which is I found a jillion twitter, facebook and other social media references to the names, but nearly nothing substantial that wasn’t just a reference to the Simpsons episode where it first entered the public consciousness. One search gave me a spartan reference to a Mayan god, but I couldn’t tell if the article was retrofitting the Simpsons reference into an existing pantheon, so while it may be relatively trivial for someone to dig up some real information about the guy, I’m going with the idea that Varia is in the same boat as me, which is the 10 minutes she spent googling it were inconclusive. (If you’re unfamiliar with the reference, here’s a wiki link. I admit it’s kind of obscure considering it was in the episode for all of 20 seconds, plus a few “hey this thing is still in the basement” cameos in a half dozen other episodes, but for some reason I still remember the name 20 years later.)
Here’s the link to the new comments highlighter for chrome, and the GitHub link which you can use to install on FireFox via Greasemonkey.
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I am surprised that Archon didn’t plan ahead and space the seats to account for significant shoulder width…
Problem with that: that would be forcing supers to seat based on how much room the take up
…I can’t tell if this is racist or not.
In my humble opinion, no – not unless it can be considered racism to go after superhero cliches anyway. That’s what Sydney was talking about here, not Varia’s ethnic heritage, or the color of her skin, or what church she goes to, or whatever.
Like Ignoble & Yorp have said, Sydney’s not being racist, she’s just being her usual Genre-Savvy self, & picking up on these Tropes; (Warning, TV Tropes pages, open at own risk…)
Chekhov’s M.I.A. – A character is rarely mentioned (Varia’s Dad), only to appear later in the story. “In any sufficiently long-running series, if a main character’s initial backstory includes a friend, relative, or beloved who is absent but not dead, then that person will eventually show up.”
Mysterious Parent – the parent returns, revealing their importance to what’s going on. “When the reason for Parental Abandonment of a character is revealed, and the parent is someone important to the world of the story, or at least the events.”
Secret Legacy – It’s revealed the character’s bloodline is in fact part of a legacy of heroics/powered individuals, without them knowing about it. “A ways through the series, they’ll find out that they’re actually heirs to a Secret Legacy of heroism”
FYI, your TVtropes links are broken. They link to a non-existant Grrl Power page.
Not.
Sydney is playing on the story cliché of a fictional hero lacking a parent. That has nothing to do with racial issues. The various suggestions included things that were unrelated to race, such as her father’s profession being that of a wizard or inventor. Other options voiced (such as being an alien) did include race, but that does not make the betting pool racially motivated or aggravated.
It is good to question such though. If only to learn how to identify whether there is an issue involved. All too many senior people in our society have failed to educate themselves on such matters. Thereby allowing false political correctness to cloud their judgement.
For instance the child sex-abuse ring in the UK which managed to carry on operating despite numerous complaints being made. Some of the officials involved were found to be fearful of taking action against them in part because the alleged (at that time) perpetrators were of a racial minority.
Everybody in our society should be properly taught how to separate identifying improper (or criminal) behaviour from any racial, religious or ethnic aspects involved. And I applaud anybody who is sensible enough to question it, if they are not sure, in general, or for a particular incident.
I agree. They should also teach basic weapon safety, and a few other life skills that are left to parents who sometimes fail to teach them through ignorance or stupidity.
Yes, I think it is.
That doesn’t mean a bad kind of racism or discrimination, but the only reason to link her father to Quetzalcoatl and so is his ethnic. Why can’t him be Buddha? It’s like to say that an Arab person must be Muslim. As inoffensive as it could be it fell inside the racist conceptions without doubt.
Also it’s disrespectful. If Syd learns that Harem didn’t knew her father, I highly doubt that DaveB would make her start a pool about him being Jesus.
That said DaveB’s writing is often joke driven and this scene in particular is pretty well done and fun. Basically it’s Syd assholery what make it funny, and I have no problem saying that I enjoyed it.
It’s a thin line to walk on anyway.
It is wholly appropriate to debate such points. But the mere presence of race, in a conversation, does not, in itself make something racist. Truthfully stating the ethnic origins of the current president of the U.S. is not racist. Doing so for derogatory purposes is.
People become afraid to discus racial issues because they are afraid of being ladled racist. Which should not happen unless people cross the line. Whilst I agree that it is a thin line, it is fairly clearly defined.
Clearly Sydney is not espousing racial superiority. So we can disregard that aspect of the definition. And your contention clearly hinges on the latter, in any event.
Varia’s mother says that her father is Aztec. Quetzalcoatl is a Mesoamerican deity deity. So can be viewed as being an Aztec. Further this scene partly plays on the many origin stories, in the genre, where super heroes are portrayed as being the offspring of deities. In this case though being the offspring of Buddha is not implied by any fact we know. So it would be even more of a surreal leap than the one he did make.
What DaveB is doing here is parodying the super hero genre. He is not, in doing that, also being racist.
Far from it, he opened up the possibilities to include other races such as aliens, nymphs and forest sprites. But also including androids, inventors and wizards. He was not restricting the options to just the racial (and religious) ones that you are insisting to be the case.
Most importantly Dave (/Sydney) is not being prejudiced against her race (especially as elevating her to the status of potentially being a demi god!). Nor is he discriminating against her on the grounds of her race.
The only possible discrimination is for her being from a one-parent family. Which is wrong, in itself. But that is not racism.
Note that there is no negative tone, or connotation made at any point to Varia being of Aztec decent. There are negatives to the Aztec civilisation which could easily be seized upon (such as bringing in human sacrifice). But nothing even remotely like that was done. Any associations were strictly of a positive nature (such as her being a princess).
If you keep searching the definitions of racism varies. It’s a sore topic and biased use is becoming overwhelming. That is how language evolve actually :)
In fact the mere assumption of a specific trait due ethnic is what racism is. The superior or inferior part have became predominant in recent times but actually it’s not necessary.
And her being Quetzalcoatl offspring isn’t either, is it? :)
Beside that, you left out an important part of my post:
I will stress it: it’s something mostly inoffensive and likely unavoidable. However it’s racism anyway. The same way that to take a pencil from work is to steal :)
I pointed out the links. I will not repeat them. I did concede out that they were tenuous. But yours was completely lacking associations.
Note that tenuous links are very frequently used as justification for super powered origins. So it is most appropriate to parody that fact. Especially as the comic above alludes (albeit generically in some cases) to stories which have actually been written!
As for language, that does evolve. But those are the present dictionary definitions of the word. If you are using the term to apply to contemporary society then that is pertinent aspect to apply, not the historical etymology.
I specifically cut my reply regarding that one line of yours as it added too much to my already lengthy reply. And I felt it better addressed by letting the definitions speak for themselves. Read through them. Each can only be read as being bad. There is no option for a ‘good racism’. So your quoted sentence makes no sense at all.
If something is racist it is bad. Therefore we must be very careful to apply the word with careful consideration.
I have no issues with saying that racial characteristics or capabilities can be influenced by race. That is true. For instance the fastest runners, in the world, for certain distance races, come from a genetically discreet population in a small area in Africa. But that does not preclude the possibility of somebody lacking those genes being able to beat them. Which happens from time to time.
Note that the dictionary definitions are very precise on the matter. It does not consider the above paragraph to be racist. It is taking that fact and extending it to say that race is the primary determinant, and/or that it justifies classing one race to be inherently superior to another, which is racist.
The genes which make some people good long distance runners, for instance, also leaves them vulnerable to medical problems when living in colder climates. And they can be present in any population, regardless of race. Many genes make trade-offs between things which can help us or harm us, to varying degrees, and in different circumstances.
Further genes are not racist. It is humans who try to pigeon-hole people by their appearance and/or geographic origin. Genes do not care. All humans are one species, who are all sexually compatible with each other. Anyone, capable of breeding, can pass on any gene, to their offspring, if they find a suitable mate who possesses it.
To address the etymology though, ‘race’ is a term coined by those who sought to gain domination or justify precedence over those who do not look like themselves. I only consider it fit for guarding against such behaviour. And have similar reservations about nationhood, for that matter. I dislike mechanisms which create cliques and allow a ‘them versus us’ mindset to dominate our thinking and politics.
However such is totally irrelevant, as that aspect never even entered into the above comic. So it is purely an issue you have raised.
Ok, we are focusing on different points no doubt.
I will remark a couple collateral things anyway.
I didn’t mention the racist bit until another commenter raised the topic. Anyway my bad, I should know better.
Dictionaries are reference tools made for humans and highly dependant on sample. They are meant to help but they can’t reflect the meanings of a concept among different populations, let aside languages. See for example the official Real Academia Española definition.
Hope we can still friendly debate about less sore topics in the future.
See you around.
Oh no sore feelings involved. It is a pleasure to debate such tricky subjects in a civil manner amongst friends!
Even if different opinions are involved (and fairly slight as they were, in this case, hinging on subtleties, rather than substantive differences in ethics) we are collectively enriched by the debate.
‘ladled’ = ‘labelled’
I won’t speak for Dave on that, but I certainly have run with that gag myself today. However I pick my audiences. The Grrl Power readership are a fairly open-minded lot, and willing to take a cheeky joke. On the whole.
I would avoid making the joke to the congregation of a conservative church mind. But did not hesitate to make a similar gag to a Baptist minister, the other week. One whom I knew to have a good sense of humour. Who took it in good faith, as intended. And countered with a witty quip of his own, in a similar vein. He did not take it as being disrespectful.
Especially as it is doctrinally sound. Those of the faith believe that Jesus will return. And could be amongst us today. So it is reasonable to keep an eye on anyone who shows appropriate characteristics.
Mind you, if anyone is blatantly unsuitable to be considered as the messiah, such as Harem, then it is laughable. Which serves well for a joke. And I am sure that Jesus reborn would have a chuckle at such too, especially with insider knowledge on his (or her) side.
As a final note, it would be both arrogant and racist to assume that Jesus would be reborn as a white Christian English-speaking male. Especially as, the first time round, he was a Jew and it is unlikely that he was a Caucasian (but won’t argue the point if anyone feels strongly on the matter, that is their belief, and they can do as they wish).
I’m not sure I understand your point. It seems that you are saying that disrespect depends on reaction. Because I know people that laugh to certain jokes that I think are inappropriate anyway.
Also in your example you were doing a joke but the character, Sydney, isn’t, she is doing it for real.
Disrespect (like racism, sexism and other potential forms of discrimination) relies on both intent and reception. If somebody is clearly intending to cause disrespect then there is no dispute. However people will often try to veil disrespect, by masking it as an innocuous comment.
Typically, such a verbal bully, will try to balance the comment such that it causes the desired offence to the target, but remains just respectable enough to retain plausible deniability to other listeners. This is why it is important to seek the opinion of the person being targeted. If the comment was tailored to insult them, they are the ones best able to judge that.
Here of course you get into the issue that is very much in the media spotlight. Where it is possible to take offence where none is intended or plausible. So, where the recipient is claiming offence, a judgement call needs to be made, if the claim is lacking in credibility.
It is worth carefully considering the backgrounds and cultural differences involved, in such circumstances. What plays fine to someone with one upbringing may not sound nice to someone else. Plus what one culture (or religion or whatever) considers to be acceptable may be intolerable to another.
But that is not the case in this situation. If the person at the receiving end of the behaviour deems that it is not a problem, then there is no case to answer. There is no disrespect, nor insult.
As for people who choose to be hypocritical and conceal their true feelings, that is their option. I prefer it if folks are honest. But if they feel that forcing a false laugh will avoid the social inconvenience of confronting someone, who they feel to be insulting, then that is their call to make. But if they behave in a two-faced manner and behave one way at the time, but voice a different opinion, after the fact, then they are contributing to the problem.
However I am fairly good at spotting such. If I see somebody becoming uncomfortable, I would avoid jokes or behaviour which provoked that.
Sydney may or may not be doing it for real. Should we make a bet in these comments, we do not see somebody trying to enforce it. We take it as being a joke. As they might be doing above. Again that comes down to tone. It certainly seems rather jokey. But we do know that the unit does make bets for cash, so it is plausible either way.
But, earnest or not, that is irrelevant when discussing prejudice and discrimination. Bullying can be veiled a lot easier by jokes than said in plain. So waving it off as a joke would not make it ok.
All that matters is “was offence intended” and “was offence taken”. I contend that neither was.
In my opinion disrespect, offence and insult are different things, related but they can occur independently.
I could agree with you about offence and insult, but I think disrespect is an absolute.
If you take believes and cultural heritage to joking around you are being disrespectful, no matter if a particular person feels hurt or not.
Agreed.
This is a cultural point. So talking in too broad generalisations will cause conflicting opinions. One person might have one thing in mind, whilst another something completely different.
One of the most contentious issues is that modern western society is comfortable with parody, and even including (or especially including) individuals in positions of power. Other societies are not necessarily so happy with that.
So this is one of the reasons why I say it is important to judge the audience (and/or those mentioned in the jokes or parody). If dealing with a society which finds parody to be rude, I would not force such comedy on them. And find it rude when others choose to do that.
If however it is simply an individual, in power, who objects, but their society does not have issues against it, then tough. They will just have to learn to have any bad decisions they make mocked. Or lock up and torture the mockers, if they have that capability.
So on probably the most contentious issue, namely the depicting of Allah, I am very firmly against it. Such is culturally and religiously taboo to Muslims. And forcing our relaxed attitude of parody, and freedom of expression, against another culture, who finds that offensive, is simply wrong. We should not do that.
However I would not extend that to also apply to every other religion or prominent person in the world. You judge each situation on it’s own merits. Or lack thereof.
This would not be an instance of applying one rule to one group and a different one to another. You are asking “is this action likely to cause offence to people?” and “if so, how much?”
For instance I know that the well intended gift of crucifix to the wrong Christian can give offence. If they find the depiction of Christ, in that manner, to be idolatrous. So I would not force such on to them, any more than I would participate in, or condone the publishing of a mocking cartoon, where that will cause widespread social or religious offence.
Well, I believe that if I think of an inappropriate joke without telling it to anyone I’m still being disrespectful.
Annnd exit…
i respect you.
…but im gonna call you a bastard. your comment highlighted an internal contradiction on my part. while i agree with the point you made, i also find it ideologically offensive. thats fascinating, and i thank you, sincerely, for that.
but im trying to read a web comic here, and this is awfully distracting. ;p
now, now, if the character who doesn’t know their father had some sort of jesus analogue then they would be named something jesus like (coughcough Shepher cough cough) and then they would be destined to sacrifice themselves at the end to save humanity, right?
IMO, with those tropes ethnic heritage is only one small point, things like characterization are a lot more important
My money is on that Dabbler’s dad is Jesus. She’s got like super-mixed heritage, and conspiracy theorists hold that Jesus & god was some kind of alien were just some kind of aliens, in hindu culture gods have multiple arms (which may skip generations), new agers hold he’s some kind of ascended thing, biblicaly angels and demons are the same species, just different political parties, so biologically Jesus could be considered a demon, alien, and have a multi-armed kid and could easily have the ire of some big fiery dude which would totally be the type to take it out on family. Dabbler could totally be Jesus’s illegitimate offspring.
Using Harem as an example doesnt make what Sydney is doing racist at all.
Varia frequently talks about how she’s aztec, dresses with aztec stuff in her hair or something, and was in the middle of telling Sydney that her mother swears that her father is pure aztec blood. So having her bring up stuff involving her father being a possible aztec god is not racist
If Harem’s mother swears that she had given birth when a holy spirit entered her or whatever it is that goes on in Christian theology for the immaculate conception, yes- Sydney would probably have odds on Harem’s father being Jehovah or Jesus or an archangel or something.
Actually the only reason to not speculate that a character’s father could be Jesus is because virginity is closely associated with that particular divine figure. It tends to make the idea that he would ever have a child seem sacrilegious. Plenty of fictional characters have been written with “fathered by an angel” or “fathered by the devil” and that doesn’t pose a problem.
Isn’t Star Lord from Marvel’s Guardians of the Galaxy’s father some sort of angelic figure? (a Being of Pure Light at least)? For all we know, he could be Michael.
Oh come now, keep it real! Marvel’s Guardians are fictional.
*rolls eyes heavenward*
;-)
I don’t think racism is the question here. No one in the comic is making negative comments about Varia based on her race, so Sydney’s comments would fall more in the realm of stereotypes than racism.
Yeah! Goose! We need more of this almost-bracking-copyright-character!
I guess Archon doesn’t do “Uniform of the day”, though I guess that makes sense.
Given that some of the male members have long hair makes me think that ARC must have a very lax uniform code…!
‘Relaxed’ rather than ‘lax’. But other than that, yes. I make the distinction because the term you applied implies that it is not being enforced. Whereas it is simply one that is not as restrictive, as in other arms of the military.
For good reason. When you know you will have individuals in the unit who are born with purple hair and golden skin, or who will be gigantically tall, or minutely small, or capable of turning into living lightning, fire or ice, it is blatantly ridiculous to try and impose a uniform look to them. If there are numerous exceptions to the standard, it does not make sense to decide not to try and impose one. Not if doing so will be counter-productive.
As was pointed out recently, to Sydney, supers have very rare capabilities, where the demand for their services far outstrips the numbers available to supply them. So concessions need to be made, to allow the service to be more appealing. Archon have been very wise to recognise that, for some individuals, granting freedom of expression can be as motivating as financial recompense.
Invincible hair doesn’t help :)
I got twenty on Chalchihuihtotolin :D
Meh, if Tezcatlipoca had a velociraptor nagual maybe she might derive from that, but I do not get much of a turkey vibe from Varia!
actually the reason a lot of Disney movies have dead mothers is because Disney’s own mom died due to Carbon-Monoxide poisoning in a house he bought for her after he became rich due to the snow white movie. So while it’s still an unhealthy response it’s more a penance thing than a weird thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_Call_Disney
I find that improbable. After all most of those characters were motherless in the story Disney was using as source material and Snow White was actually one of those characters. Bambi’s about the only exception.
If Xochitl never met her father, maybe he deserted his family? Leaving Xochitl to be labeled a bastard?
Unless her father may have reasons for disappearing???
He don’t necessary leave or disappear. Varia didn’t say anything (she had not the chance :) ). Maybe he just died before Varia was born.
Or was married. Or in jail. Or in stasis. Or… :P
Sh*t, I missed the simplest: maybe he was a semen donor.
all this and I STILL can’t remember how to pronounce Varia’s real name…
Sho-cheel Sho-key-ket-zal
Xochitl = Sho-key-tull
Is that Duke Nukem in the center of the second row?
Nope. Duke Nukem just happens to look like Goose. Who is an established member of the support team.
Actually I imagine Goose originally only looked fairly similar, but found matching his look exactly earnt him a lot of look-alike appearance fees. Or possibly he just likes that people he meets casually enjoy making that connection.
It would be easy enough to break the look, by changing his hair-style, for example. But just as Elvis impersonators can find the role addictive, he may well too.
Hail to the king, baby.
Dave B, the reason you couldn’t find Xtapolapocetl is because it was made up by the Simpsons. A quick search on the Olmec pantheon shows that we have only rudimentary names for them like Feathered Serpent, Bird Monster, and Maize Deity. They predate the later ones we have complicated names for like the Aztec and Mayan deities. If the Olmecs gave them such names we have no way to translate the pictographs.
Also if anyone Aztec is her father it would be Tezcatlipoca, Smoking Mirror, who was a shaman and represented omnipotent universal power.
Just a detail, Olmec were prior to Aztec but not to Mayan, however Olmec developed faster and Mayan caught up later mostly learning for them.
My bad. I know a bit about the Mayans and Aztech, but a bit less about the Olmec. (Another google search later) Okay, now I’ve got the timeline straight. At any rate, we don’t have the Olmec names for the Olmec pantheon, only their English equivalents. Also as best we know they didn’t have a war god. There was really no one for them to make war on for most of their history.
Good news. Sydney and I should have long lives! Our diet favours longevity.
That’s good, since the other Superheros probably already have extended lives, along with their fantastic Physiques.
I agree, that extra longevity is helpful for the superheroes that weren’t born into it like Sydney and Yorp.
You know what…
Yorp is a good puppy.
~Leaves puppy treatys in a doggy bowl~
Yay!
Munch munch munch munch munch…
*tail wagging non-stop*
You know what they say – give a dog a cameo in your comic, and he’ll be loyal forever.
From cradle to grave.
D’aww!
Alright the who’s who definitely needs a major fucking update. Seriously that thing should be two pages longer than the comic. Get on it, DAVE.
Have a look above. There are over forty distinct portraits! Each with their own expressions and emotions clearly depicted. Along with having detailed accessories, clothing and body language, as may be appropriate. Some with immensely complicated properties, and environmental effects, such as Halo’s orbs. All set in a detailed immersive world, with realistic-looking environments.
Not to mention the various jokes, parodies and ongoing storyline which has us all deeply immersed in this rich setting. The writing of which is a distinct and separate skill set to the drawing of it.
And all this is turned out so routinely that we take it for granted. Yet DaveB is having to create that level of content twice weekly. With only the occasional help from a colourist.
May I suggest that you head up the DaveB Cloning Research Program, if you want him to be able to increase his productivity?
Either that or put into practice a major publicity campaign, to draw in more Patreons. Enough that Dave can afford to hire staff to handle some of the numerous roles that he has to currently do himself. Such as the technical support, editing, lettering, book publishing, merchandising, publicity, comments moderation and so on.
The who’s who is usually reserved for the characters that spoke on the current page.
$5 on her being the form of the Destructor!
Noo, she cannot be Stay-Puft-The-Marshmallow-Man, reincarnated!
Although I could have a little nibble, just to make sure.
Considering the cast of Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop and a few other original Disney series, I’ll go with he whole “Walt had a boner for dead moms” thing.
But Harry Potter knew who his parents were. O.o
No, I don’t know who you’re talking about when you say “Ascending”, but then, I wouldn’t know who you’re talking about even if you *did* include her last name. XD
Clearly, it can mean more than one thing, because she’s taking bets.
The ‘one thing’ is that Varia’s dad is not a normal person. Rather there is some exotic reason for her family circumstances. As it is unknown, the bets are just on what that happens to be.
And my first thought was that I’ve known US Marines that would totally do exactly that.
Re-reading the page, thanks to that comment, made me crack up laughing, over it, all over again. Thanks.
My money is on Quetzacoatl, but I do expect money if it’s Tezcatlipoca or an alien disguised as Quetzacoatl
I can tell ya that my genetic profile: the biggest single chunk says “Native American,” while the largest *grouping* is southern European.
A splash of Ashkenazi Jew, a little black, a splash of Korean, and 2.2% FuckifIknowian.