Grrl Power #273 – Power… drain?
So a bit of a mixed reaction to the last page. That’s ok, not everyone is going to agree with everything in the comic and I felt that the stakes needed to be upped before we hit the resolution. As always, my pacing could arguably be better, but I’ve written out to the end of the fight and the entirety Vehemence battle is actually less than two comic books worth, (American comics, not 100+ page manga) so take that Dragon Ball Z. Hopefully the bi-weekly posting schedule is what’s making it feel drawn out, but that’s really only something that can be fully judged when it’s possible to read the whole fight in one sitting.
Oh and I just want to say up here in the comments that the solution people are suggesting rather a lot, which is that Sydney put an airtight shield around him probably isn’t a viable solution, because as far as has been revealed in the comic, Sydney doesn’t know how to make the force field around someone else. She has to be in it, and by default it’s centered on her, though that can be adjusted. I only mention it here because I’ve seen it get suggested about 14 times per page for the last several comics. I’ll go ahead and spoil this: she doesn’t know how to do that, it’s not a deus ex I’m holding on to, and it would be super OP if she could anyway.
On this page we see Maxima’s weakness, if it’s fair to call it that. Force her into a high armor state and she’s only able to bring her default strength to bear. It’s not much of a weakness since she’s so strong to begin with, but in the rare case she’s up against someone hugely powerful it can become a problem. Vehemence stumbled onto it but didn’t quite guess its nature. Dabbler did figure it out on her own which is how she was able to fight Max to a standstill. Dabbler forced Max into an armor dump and left neither one of them capable of hurting the other. The real trouble happens if someone forces her into a strength dump – someone with gravity powers or enormously powerful telekenesis or something like that. It would leave her only slightly tougher than a really butch tank, which again, not that much of a weakness, but against right super powers that can still be a problem, as we saw how the tank fared in at the firing range.
Here’s the link to the new comments highlighter for chrome which I can’t live without anymore, and the GitHub link which you can use to install on FireFox via Greasemonkey.
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Is it just me or are his dialogues more and more making him seem like a teacher? He presents a problem and then explains it after you fail.
For example when they first started fighting, he revealed he was a vehemic user only -after- he let Maxima beat the piss out of him. If he really was a truly evil person, he’d skip past the bullshit like that. I’m beginning to think he’s not quite the “villain” as he seems.
He also hinted a congratulations to Sydney after she gave out an additional definition for a word he was making a point with (takes too long to search, forgot the word lol)
Malum.
Apple
Obviously Vehemence’s weakness are apples.
Mine is apple pie.
Unfortunately, Sydney is probably useless now, since her weakness are shirtless guys with great abs. I forgot about that power of Vehemence’s.
Considering that this whole comic is based upon Sydney being the main protagonist AND that the whole story is coming from *her* point of view, I figure that Sydney will be the one who figures out how to put Vehemence down (with or without help from others in the process) & will earn Anvil’s “Big Guns” compliment. Dave has been pretty consistent in the narrative so far so I figure that, when it happens, the solution will fit the situation like hand-and-glove.
…Except gloves (& mittens) are Sydney’s Kryptonite…Which means that Dave is going to have to play around with the tropes some more.
:/
I was making a joke. When Sydney was asked about her weakness, she said ‘shirtless guys with abs’ :)
Also being riddled with bullets and stakes through the heart
His weakness is apples? Quickly! Throw an ipod at him!
Technically. Apple was what she said in response to his comment about Malum. Which I’d forgotten.
Yes. His secret weakness too. Apples.
I’m just going to keep saying that because it’s the only humorous thing about V I can say. :)
It’s easy. Vehemence is a doctor. Apples keep him away.
I am still fond of the “Vehemence is their unannounced secret trainer” theory.
You’re brilliant.
He alternates every lecture between fully suited, and shirtless. Also he is the coolest teacher on campus, but always has pop quizzes.
Ye gods, now I’m imagining V as a kindergarten teacher. Wouldn’t that be adorable?
His advice on dealing with bullies would probably result in property damage, cackling kids, and a principal screaming in a monotone while rocking a teddy bear back and forth
Alice (child): Mr Vehemence! Teacher! Billy’s hitting me!
Vehemence gives Alice a baseball bat to hit Billy back.
Can we please start a petition for this (done as a limited-run spin-off series or something) to be a new stretch goal for the Patreon?
Turns out he IS a kindergarten teacher and that’s how they beat him. They bring some of his students around and he is such a stand up citizen that he won’t fight in front of ‘his kids’.
Which again brings us back to apples.
Because you give the teacher an apple to make them in a good mood. Which is the opposite of violence.
So obviously Vehemence can be defeated by giving him an apple.
Just as long as the apple isn’t called ‘Fiona’ :P
No, but it has to be thrown by Gwyneth Paltrow’s daughter.
If that joke has escaped people, look up what Gwyneth Paltrow’s daughter’s name is.
Why in the seven hells would someone name their child that???
That’s practically asking the bullies to pick on them.
I’m now remembering the G.I.Joe cartoon episode where they had to stop a blob with apples.
Ah yes, the episode where they said apples have a tiny bit of cyanide in the seeds. So eating an entire apple orchard kills the blob by cyanide poisoning.
If he had my kids, he would be uber powerful!
I mean, takinkg Maxima out with his pinky powerful…
He actuallly didn’t need to be my kids teacher, could stand in the other room!!!
Small children would indeed provide a fairly reliable supply of vehemic energy…
Only if Schwarzenegger does his voice and at some point he says “IT’S NOT A TUMAAOOUUURRR!” Start the reactor! Naaaouughhh!!!! Get aauuugghhtt of here! Kaum with me if you want to livvvv!
I think Vegeta has much more comedic potential as a kindergarten teacher, actually.
Team Four Star DBZ Abridged fan, or simple observation?
*trying his best to keep his patience because Bulma and Chichi will kill him if he screws it up. Then he loses it anyways.* “SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP OR I WON’T TELL YOU A STORY!”
Yeah, as soon as you mentioned in the last comic that you wanted the group to always be ‘Oh shit!’ every time they see V, I figured it wouldn’t be another simple Halo solution >.< Then someone pointed out that thing about her having to be in the forcefield (so far as she knows), so that ended my argument for it.
It's making me more and more curious how this is going to end. Here's to hoping it's something truly creative :3
I’m’ curious how this is going to end… But I do have a few ideas.. One is looking more promising then the others.. Yes Sydney.. NO not her shield. Think about a couple of her other ‘orb’ skills…
Psuedopod pressure point massage?
Either that or we get to learn what that orphaned nod she chose for upgrade does.
Oh, now electricity?! Good grief. Just how many powers does this guy have?
Apparently, Vehemence has a significant body of knowledge in magical abilities; He precisely identified the Sleep spell that Dabbler tried to use on him & already recognized her as a succubus, as well as talking about the Aetheon Thrones & such as topics.
Up until now he hasn’t had much energy strong enough to *use* that knowledge; Even at the LA riots he hadn’t gotten such a big charge-up.
So far? Two. The ability to absorb violence and turn it into energy he can use, and the ability to regenerate in a manner that leaves the regenerated tissue significantly stronger.
The electricity, pants, and ground sticking aren’t powers. By all appearances they are magic fueled with stored vehemence energy. If we started calling every single spell any spell caster could cast a “power” then Dabbler would have thousands of powers.
arg mistell… meant that to go to Uhl…
End of level Arch-Villain, who is happy to fight America’s most powerful combat supers, assembled into one team…solo.
I would guess quite a few powers.
Let’s hope he doesn’t try to cast a massive spell and get interrupted by a trope or something, only for the spell to violently misfire.
Actually it would be best if it COMICALLY misfired.
I wouldn’t say that he has powers. He has “Power”, derived from violence, which he can pretty much use in whatever way he wants when he has enough of it. Similar to Dabbler really, – it’s all based around a theme, not an ability.
Two powers.
The power to channel and absorb vehemic energy – the energy of violence
The ability to use that power to do whatever he wants (without limit so far).
Possibly limited to “change the body to do more violence”.
Given that electic eels can also emit electricity perhaps he just changed his muscles to something similar.
Went on an archive binge and noticed the sticker on Syd’s car in panel two of page 4. Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Sydney’s inspection sticker expired in 5-11? That means she’s been breaking the law for over 3 years at this point, and since that scene takes place months after this fight (She’s gotta make Corporal, after all) she’s been in violation for almost half a decade.
Though it does raise the question. Is it still 2010 in Grrlverse, or will time re-sync after the fight?
This is still day 1 for Sydney .
Exactly. Day 1 and they’ve already met the unbeatable boss with the ‘anything I want to do I can do because of reasons’ power.
Doc,
I know it’s still day one, my question is if day one is still in 2010, meaning that DaveB will have to use past dates from here on out, or if “day one” has traveled forward it time to current with us.
Depends on how GoD(ave) wants to do it
I have a secret to confess.
I was doing a pool to help:
1) Dr Revenge buy new satellite.
2) CaptObvious brand new sign factory.
3) Establish tours to Atlantis (c’mon, you know you would go there).
4) Liver transplants to all that made this a drinking game.
So since Dave bursted the bubble, here goes (please be gentle guys)…
HOWABOUTSYDNEYUSESHERSHIELDTOSURROUNDVHEADANDSUFFOCATEHIM?!!!!!……..
GOD, that was painful!
Well since you warned us. It won’t be included in the drinking game resulting from the same question lol
Dr. Revenge got the money to set up his satellite from me. From my earnings in the Brain Bleach ™ franchise, I paid for the satellite & he kept enough of his ninjas to act as crew. Since those extra ninjas don’t have to pass out signs any more, my own ninja clan got expanded, Dr. Revenge got his satellite & we’re both happy with that deal.
:)
So how are the Itching Powder and DMSO franchises doing? :D
No one seems to have put any on order, so I didn’t bother with those franchises.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh well…
Thank you for the thought. The sign factory actually belongs to Dr.Revenge and the tours of Atlantis will have to be done by sub for now. The trophies at the bottom keeps crumbling and the statement about Sydney and the shield that Dave made has temporarily put a damper on acquiring more of them. But don’t worry, I have faith in humanity and expect that to be forgotten next strip at the latest.
We will find something new to ignore. There’s always something.
THE POOL WILL BE RELAUNCHED!!!
Thank you Cpt. Obvious and bleh for your positive attitude.
If you guys don’t mind I would like to revert any proceeds to MidnightDestroyer lines of business and any liver transplant from future drinking games.
I think he deserves it, many ninjas to feed and who wouldn’t want to have itching powder, I mean we’re talking about Taratula hairs here!!!
I’d suggest sending the proceeds to support the liver transplants. I’m already making enough from the Brain Bleach ™ franchise to have paid for Dr. Revenge’s satellite & the new ninjas are already performing well; just a bit of additional training to integrate them as part of the overall clan & our teamwork strategies. As it is, they’re already accomplishing missions as successfully as I expected.
You heard the man!
Everybody, drink up!
So Maxima’s not invincible… I better start making notes for my evil plan! I need a giant hamster, a colossal spiky wheel, and ten tonnes of molasses!
Don’t forget the red crowbar (blue ones won’t work for this), and the ham sandwich.
I’m sure there’s some pop culture/video game/comic book reference here, but I don’t know what it is.
Destroy the ground under his feet, or make sure he’s standing on ground not attached to the earth. THEN fly off with him into space, so he tries to bind himself to the ground again . . . Only to find the ground is much smaller and easier for Max to lift than before.
I don’t know if maxima is vacuum proof :p (she may still need air herself to keep consciousness)
However, if they manage to lift Vehemence off the ground, maybe they can pull it off like this : Maxima carries sydney, who create her airtight shield around both of them, and sidney use her tentacle orb to grab Vehemence. At this point, Maxima lifts sidney to space, with both of them protected by sidney’s shield, while vehemence is carried outside of it by the tentacle :)
Potential problems are the strength of the Hentacle. V might not be anchoring himself to the ground but to the gravity field. Perhaps Vehemence could climb the Hentacle, does it have friction that would allow that? Some pages back V was shown to drag Sydney along by the Hentacle, so there is some feedback. How strong is this feedback, and does it act on Sydney or on the Hentorb? Would she be able to carry the current weight of V without dropping the orb? Could Maxima help by cradling Sydneys hand in hers? And so on…
Doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea, just that it has to be tested with a bit of care, and be prepared that it may go pear shaped at any moment.
Meh. I’d love the idea that Halo’s shield is just completely and utterly impregnible against anything (which does include air)
I am seriously starting to doubt that he actually has all of these powers he claims to be discovering. Most of them work altogether too well if he is in fact essentially made of vehemic energy. This would mean that any (semi physical) modifications he might make to himself, like the lightning crystals our even the Ka Pants and size growth, are essentially free actions. Both in terms of time and in terms of energy expended. Magical sleep spells don’t work on him not because they are too weak (contrary to what he said) but instead because he cannot sleep (being essentially a force of nature).
Oh darn, looks like I am out of power and the cart decided it is time to sleep on me. I guess that’s all I get this comment…
If you look back on the page where Dabbler tried to Sleep spell on him, he didn’t simply ignore it…He *blocked* it with his arm. The spell itself wasn’t powerful enough to overwhelm his Active Defense.
Waiting for Sydney to pull a dues ex machina with one of the mystery orbs. The anticipation of finding out what they finally do is killing me!
Not sure why she’d suddenly be able to use one of her mystery orbs to win, when she hasnt had any ability to find out what they do until now. Then again that’s the definition of a Deus ex machina anyway.
One of the mystery orbs would have been more practical if Sydney had upgraded one of them though. Don’t really see how an upgraded yellow comm ball would help here though, unless she was able to tie it into the shield one to put a shield around someone else (which is an idea that has been ‘supposed’ by people to death on the comments boards since Vehemence first started being the boss fight).
Also it probably wouldnt work anyway, since Sydney has already used her comm ball in conjunction with the shield ball back when she was questioning V earlier about if he was ‘perpetratin’ evil’ – you could clearly see that the comm version of the shield was letting V through it (since it wasnt REALLY there, just a projection of the shield and Sydney).
I think that could happen if she uses one of her upgrades to link the comm and shield balls.
Doubtful, since DaveB in this very comic’s comments said ‘that is not going to happen and would be too OP if it did.’
Plus it was already shown that when she uses those two orbs in combination, the shield is just an illusion which lets things through.
I mean… it’s CONCEIVABLE that the orphaned node she upgraded could have allowed that, but DaveB has already said that is not the case.
Nono, I mean… go look back at her level-up matrix. There are nodes that connect each of the orbs together. I wonder what happens if you connect the comm and shield orbs.
Again, I personally think it’s a good idea but I just don’t think DaveB is going to do something where Sydney can trap another person in the force field after he said he was never going to do that. It WOULD be cool though :)
Actually, I’d guess it to be an option to make her illusory self tangible (i.e. generating a shield the exact size and shape as her inside the illusion), at the expense of not being able to shield her real self at the same time.
I just realized that Super Resilience and Super Strength annoy be had without being together, if you went super resilience but not super strength your super dense body would be unable to move to the point where your heart would stop beating or tear itself apart trying to.
If you had super strength but not resilience your own muscles would grind your bones to dust you to their sheer strength, so Maxima dumping all power into either of those 2 should actually kill her.
Achilles has super resilience beyond even what Maxima is capable of, but has only the average (or slightly higher, since he doesn’t have to worry about muscle strain) strength of someone with his size/build. He can move just fine. No idea if he’s got a heartbeat or not though.
As for the super strength thing, yeah, the only thing worse than Superman’s world of cardboard is if the person with the strength power is also made of cardboard. “I have to treat the world like I’m made of eggshells, because otherwise I’ll splortch myself against something.”
Achilles’ power isn’t resilience it’s Invincibility, invincibility are BEYOND resilience and probably functions in a different way.
Also the reason you’d have to be dense to be resilient are because the less dense a molecular makeup is the softer and more fragile it is, perfect example are Ice, Water and Vapor, Ice cintains tightly knit crystalline molecules and are dense enough that you can walk on it if there is enough of it, water, which contains the same molecule but at a much MUCH lower density are liquid and have littel to no resilience at all when it comes to being moved about, and vapor… well you should get the point by now, the same goes for flesh and bone as well,
More importantly, however are the fact that the denser something is the heavier it becomes, which is part of the problem with super resilience, a persons muscles can only manage so much before they simply can’t function anymore, in this case it would be because the electrical signal used by our brain to tell our muscles to move would not be able to make the muscles contract the way they are supposed to due to the increased density alters the muscles conductivity, making it so that the body requires a higher electrical charge to actually move the muscle, and that are on top of the added weight from being so dense.
Sorry bout the science lesson, i tend to start ranting when explaining things.
Your water and ice example is not quite right.
Water is denser than ice. That is why ice floats. So it is in fact Ice that contains the same molecule at a lower density relative to water.
Water expands when it freezes, (that is why soda cans bulge if you put them in the freezer). All of the above taken into consideration, A square foot of ice will weigh less than a square foot of water. In this particular case, it is the rigid formation/arrangement of the water molecules that matters.
Ice is actually one of the few substances on Earth that behaves this way.
Your statements on density are generally true, just not in the example you gave.
The problem with your idea of resiliency equaling density is that Maxima doesn’t get denser, she has cellular level force-fields, which don’t weigh anything. When she’s at maximum defense, she weights exactly the same as she does when she’s at maximum speed and no defense. (Both of which are probably more than when at maximum flight, because cheating.)
Also the ice thing AronIronHead points out – don’t science lesson at people unless you check first, you end up giving the opposite lesson to the one you want. Since V is getting ‘bigger’ as well as ‘tougher’, he may also just be freezing the water inside himself (stealing the molecular motion/violence) to make himself bigger. (Yes, I totally pulled that out of my butt, and will be very upset if it turns out to be right.)
Maxima has base level powers even if she’s not dumping into her pool, as you can see from the pool pictures. There’s a small blue pentagram, then a slightly bigger one around that. the small one is her base power level. the one around it is her base power + her base ‘augmented powers’. Then there are two more larger pentagrams for augmented level 2 and augmented level 3. She can still fly, for example, even when she’s pumping everything into strength or invulnerability or blast. Or she can still make a normal blast (like she did at Halo Light) while having her golden triangle in place (strength/invulnerability/whatever).
Oops, actually upon further review, there are THREE larger pentagrams. So Augmented level 2, augmented level 3, and augmented level 4.
Base powers = light blue
Augmented 1 = dark blue (she could probably have all 5 powers at this level)
Augmented 2 = dark grey (golden triangle level – can have 3 powers at this level)
Augmented 3 = medium grey
Augmented 4 = white
When I say all 5 powers, I mean all 5 powers at Augment level 1 (rather than all five at base level, which she seems to clearly always have, based on how all the comics have shown her, at least at base depending on her configuration)
There could also be ‘mandatory secondary powers’ which most characters in comics have in order to make their primary powers useful without killing themselves.
Like Hulk’s secondary power of violating the conservation of mass.
Like Human Torch’s secondary power of being immune to fire, so he doesnt burn up when he flames on.
Like Cyclops’ secondary power of aiming ability (he’s also excellent at pool because of it)
Like Banshee’s secondary power of aural invulnerability so he doesnt deafen HIMSELF with his banshee scream.
Like Superman’s secondary power of a biomatrix field so when he picks up huge things, they don’t collapse under their own mass.
Like Flash’s secondary power of the Speed Force generating a field around things he carries so they don’t burn up from friction.
Cute scene from last weeks Flash episode, when Barry gave Felicity a lift back to Star Labs, her sweater caught on fire from the air friction, after hurriedly removing it she said “Glad I didn’t go braless today!” Guess even secondary powers take practice.
Admittedly that’s also for TV. :)
In the comics, Flash has done stuff like evacuate an entire city of people, one at a time, within a few seconds. Obviously if he didnt have his secondary powers working there, every single person he grabbed and moved would have burned up from air friction, but the Speed Force has a secondary mandatory power which lets him carry stuff which will also be enveloped partially by the speed force enough so that they don’t burn up. :)
It’s weird and sort of sad that I know this stuff.
All hero powers have the secondary power of plot
Your argument depends on the extra resilience coming from tissue and bone density. Superman’s doesn’t. Only a small portion of the Hulks does. And Anvil is a good example of how energy siphoning can make one super resilient as well.
Actually, everything I stated was word of god from either Stan Lee or Jim Byrne. And I never said Superman’s resilience was from tissue and bone density. While Kryptonians actually do have a higher tissue and bone density than humans, it would not explain their superhuman levels of strength and stamina – that comes from the Kryptonian biomatrix. Its a real thing. Which gives a secondary MANDATORY power of being able to lift things without them breaking under their own mass.
And I also didnt say anything about Hulk’s resilience either – I said Hulk has a secondary MANDATORY power which allows him to defy the laws of conservation of mass – otherwise Hulk would not be able to grow from some scrawny guy to an 8-12 foot (depending on the writer and artist) behemoth with bulging muscles on muscles. Where does all the extra mass come from? Mandatory secondary power of being able to create that mass (then being able to remove that mass into the netherworld of nothingness when he reverts back to Banner).
I should also mention that, from how Dabbler described it in the science corner, and how DaveB explained in some of his comments, Maxima seems to have something very similar to the Kryptonian biomatrix as well.
By all means, take your time and do it as you planed. Don’t listen to the peanut gallery.
Yes, definitely don’t listen to the readers to gauge if the readers have any constructive criticism about particular characters. That would be stupid.
Better to follow in the footsteps of Star Trek TNG’s Wesley Crusher, Scooby Doo’s Scrappy Doo, Heroes’ Sylar, and Flintstone’s Great Gazoo.
No sarcasm here. Noooo. :)
That being said, DaveB has written an excellent webcomic for the past several years and this is the only time I’ve bothered to even comment because how god-damned annoying V has become – it’s the only real problem I’ve had with reading this webcomic, which otherwise is pure gold.
I won’t resort to the sarcasm that Pander used, but I will point out that DaveB does, in fact, have a very compelling reason to listen to the peanut gallery: he is supporting himself on a month-to-month basis through Patreon subscriptions to his webcomic.
Speaking as one of the people who has suspended my subscription, I don’t feel that DaveB has any further need to listen to anything I have to say- unless, of course, he feels that reacquiring my financial support is important to him.
I saved DaveB’s life in ‘nam.
You’re making a lot of unjustified assumptions. Vehemence doesn’t power up that fast, in case you didn’t notice all the people complaining about this taking too much time.
Man, that comment did NOT go in the the right place. But the point stands.
Not making any assumptions at all, actually. Everything’s based entirely on what’s already happened. Not assumptions.
1) He does power up fast – even though this has taken months now, in comic time, this has been a few minutes.
2) People saying this is taking too much time mean because it’s a twice a week update, so these few minutes have taken months and pages upon pages upon pages upon pages upon pages upon pages upon pages. But that’s just the nature of webcomics which are weekly or bi-weekly updates.
Superior defense/resilience must not nessessarily mean higher muscle/bone density. If you have contact telekinesis like Superboy (and Maxima, according to the Q&A), you can create a force field around yourself and anything you touch without hindering you in the slightest.
I agree with you on the strength/resilience thing, though. I had a similar thought: toughness/invulnerability would suck if it wasn’t paired with hightened pain tolerance. Imagine being able to stop bullets or survive being hit by a train but feeling every bit of it.
Please apply this to U.N.Owen’s comment above.
Oh boy. I just noticed that his left eye has grown back with all the power Vehemence is currently packing.
He was already regenerating, so he also healed his eye and restored his teeth.
The new teeth look like steel (like his arm) and the eye is yellow or orange (like his power lines), perhaps this will be important some time.
I don’t know if it’s been pointed out yet, but V’s glowies shifted. Once again they’re an indicator. They started white, grew brighter, and regrew with his arm. (I see that as they’re a part of him rather than a tattoo or something.) On top of that, they moved to be a kind of power grid before/when he sprouted crystals to shock Max. So IF they could remove those (highly unlikely, and probably he’d regenerate INTO them or something…) He’d be powerless or at least be unable to channel the power(I think, may be processing wrong)
Vehemance said that he is “Innate user of vehemic energy”.
I assume tha Vehemance is a “muscle wizard”, who has large amount of personal power, and can use the acts of direct violence as additional source of power.
This could mean that Vehemence absorbs the “aura flares” which happen when a living creature is attacking or suffers damage. The greater amount of damage is being dealt, the higher amount of aura flare is created. Vehemance just needs to be very close to the action in order to absorb the released aura flare.
Being in front lines of boxing match is like having a light snack. Standing among the crowd in riot is like having a meal. Watching a razor-fight to death is lunch. Hitting a normal person or kicking a puppy might give him insignificant amount of power.
However, hitting a punching-bag, jumping from a cliff of being caught on avalanche dones not give him any energy, since there is no preson-to-person violence involved. The same applies also to indirect mechanical attacks (arrows, bullets, explosives).
When Vehemance was shot into eye, the pain and injury caused him to emit an aura flare, but he absorbed the flare and turned it to some amount of vehemic energy. Re-growing body parts probably requires more enegry than what was released and absorbed during the injury. Vehemence might be very efficient in re-cyclin the energy, but at some point there are diminishing returns.
It is possible to build this kind of “muscle wizard” character in some RPG systems which allow you to desingn new spells and paranormal powers (BTRC WarpWorld and CORPS). Only things he needs is a vehemic absorption ability, a set of buffing and healing abilities and a mana-storage matrix for the absorbed vehemic energy. This storage matrics could be in form of… pattern of glowing tattoos.
DaveB has confirmed that it is any violence, like an earthquake, but he gets much more out of violence with intent behind it.
Great explanation and a good theory, except that DaveB specifically stated that V could absorb violent energy from natural occurrences, such as thunderstorms and earthquakes, which have nothing to do with human auras, although violence generated through human intent “tastes better”.
Sort of wonder if tectonic plates would give him power also then. I mean… he should live by fault line then, or near an active volcano. That way he’d always start at some really significant power level. Who knows – maybe he does.
Limited absorption range.
Right. What I mean is what if he lives right by a fault line, or by an active volcano. Wouldnt the entire area be brimming with violence then for him to feed on?
Really low-grade violence. It needs intent behind it to give him the kind of oomph he needs to reach this kind of power level– human violence.
Too bad they didnt just do the type of thing Stalwart was doing in the beginning (before he tried the foot stomp) with that martial arts soft technique stuff.
If you find V annoying ( because he has magical spells to overcome every problem , like anchor himself to ground ) you would also have to find Dabbler annoying , for the same reasons .
And in fact i found Dabbler very annoying (especially in her battle with Heavenly Sword ) but that has relented in the following pages, i expect similar with V .
But i do agree that V does not make a good recurring Villian since yes they would have to go for the kill right away .
Similar if Halos 2 unknown Orbs are the solution here , in a secondary meeting they would simply use Halo`s Orb right away , so not much drama nor an interesting fight there .
Which is sad , i like his grin and would love to see more of it :-)
Very facetious argument actually. Dabbler is annoying, but at least it’s spelled out in advance that she’s a jill of all trades, and her abilities come from a VARIETY of areas, not one catch-all ‘I have vehemic energy so I can do whatever I want and not only that I’m able to do it better than anyone.’ Dabbler is quite clearly not the best at everything, judging from how she lost her original eye and arm.
Also there’s the fact that it takes quite a bit more to have an orgy than hit someone in order to get more powerful.
In short, it’s not that Vehemence has magical spells, it’s that it’s stuff that he’s never done before that he just makes up on the fly ‘just because’ he has ‘an abundance of power to burn.’ Like I said, Vehemence = ‘just because’ + ‘abundance of power to burn.’ Use any tactic against him and he’ll use those two non-reason reasons to be able to counter it … plus get stronger until he’s god.
“Stuff he’s never done before”
He is literally displaying the extent of his abilities for the first time. He’s not pulling stuff out of the air, he’s showing what he’s capable of. It’s only ‘pulled out of the air’ if he’s a long established character woth well-understood powers suddenly using additional unknown powers.
Give DaveB some damn credit and stop being such a pessimist. He has revealed two powers and a skill, and they’re very powerful, plusthe advantage of prep time. Can you not just wait until this ends? You’re making a lot of pessimistic assumptions and presenting them as fact to support your pessimism. Chill.
Don’t feed the troll…
Dude, I’m not a troll just because I’m pointing out something that’s very breaky in the webcomic. I’m not saying this stuff to get a response – I’m saying it because Vehemence is a broken character. Grow up.
btw, I’m accurate when I said ‘stuff he’s never done before.’ Even VEHEMENCE keeps saying it’s stuff he’s never done before. Do you even bother to read the dialog before you argue?
And the point you keep ignoring is that since this is his first appearance, he’s never done anything before. You have to have established power/behaviour base before you can declare a character broken. You just seem to not like him just because he’s kicking Maxima’s golden ass for her.
I’m not ignoring anything. He stated himself that THIS IS STUFF HE’S NEVER DONE BEFORE. I said ‘stuff he’s never done before’ and you’re getting all hurt that I’m finding fault with this.
And yes, he’s broken. Even if they beat him, he’s broken as a recurring character because anyone not holding an idiot ball would know to kill him within the first few seconds before he can get powerful and have all THIS happen again.
And of course I don’t like that he’s kicking Maxima’s butt – because so far THREE times where she’s done pretty intelligent stuff to counter him, he pulls a power out of nowhere, that he’s never used before (BY HIS OWN ADMISSION) to undo it. It’s getting repetitive and boring, and once you eliminate all reasonable strategic options to beat a character who’s reaching godlike levels, the only way to beat him becomes deus ex machina, which are HORRIBLE storytelling tools and they signify a broken character (in this case, a broken villain from unbalanced overpowering). All this talk about how it’s Dragonball Z worthy is NOT a compliment. Dragonball Z is awful storytelling, full of power creep and d-e-m and ‘infinite level’ stuff. Which is far below what this webcomic has shown up to this vehemence fight (more specifically, up to the point of the inability to budge him’ thing. Which would have been fine if that was the only thing. But then the regeneration thing. Then the electricity thing. And the idea that you think this is not a broken, overpowered character seems to tell me that you only like him because he’s beating up the superstrong, supposedly most powerful female character. Turning her into the Worf effect.
I’m assuming you probably loved Sylar in Season 2 and 3 of Heroes also
Actually, I dropped Heroes like a hot rock 3 episodes into Season 1. Caught an odd episode here and there in subsequent seasons, saw little to no improvement.
Oh, and no, I like him is because he’s smart, clever (not the same thing), occasionally funny, and prepared, something most villains never are, even the so called geniuses. The fact that Max is getting her shiny, golden butt handed to her is just window dressing. When you step in front of worldwide television and proclaim yourself the strongest, baddest mofo on the planet, don’t complain when someone steps to the plate and knocks your best pitch out of the park. Just getting what you asked for, IMHO.
Vehemence is moving close to Sylar territories. Regardless of how satisfying it might be to hand Peter’s butt to him, it eventually looks just like plot armor instead of a well thought out character the 4th or 5th time he counters an innovative attack idea with the same exact thing for yet another result. Don’t see a similarity between Sylar and V?
Btw, using other comic book characters who are prepared and ‘geniuses’ … Dr. Doom is also prepared but it gets a bit much the 15th time that the decoy’s decoy’s decoy’s decoy’s decoy’s decoy winds up ALSO being a robot because Doom planned for that too.
Aaaww, I explained in detail how he could easily be a recurring villain without being popped and I thought you read it but I guess you just read the person who replied to me. Basically attack the lesser groups (this is the entire team which won’t normally be deployed together) or act through cats paws and opportunities that allow him to simply not show his face. (a great disguise or just hide in a nearby building during a super brawl. As you have already mentioned he could join up with somebody powerful and pull a Sebastian Shaw by letting them power him up in increments. With good writing the potential for the reuse of an intelligent mastermind is endless! Its only THIS exact type of scenario that will never work again.
Wow, you post even more than me! *impressed*
Verbose posts are my superpower.
Except for that one.
And that one too.
But your arguments do rely on the claim that you know more about Vehemence than what Dave has revealed so far. We’re all still guessing, you included.
All info about V that *anyone* has is what Dave has revealed *so far* & the clues are still pretty sketchy & inconclusive. So far, V claims to have set up this fight because he convinced Vekter that this fight was Vekter’s idea; V has also stated that he tries to attend scenes of violence when he can & that Dave has *hinted* that V frequents “underground” fighter’s circuits. Vehemence has shown *what* his power is & that he’s also done his research about what that power can do, even if he’s never before absorbed enough of it to do what he’s doing now.
Everything else is *conjecture* including any guesses that appear in the comments. If you claim to not be a troll, then stop acting like one. Your presumptions of “just because” & “power to burn” are based more on your own ignorance of info that no one but Dave knows so far. At least the others here have been mature enough to know that they’re still guessing & will still be continuing to guess until Dave actually posts the revealing.
Oh.. heck no. I’m not in any way implying I know more about Vehemence than THE PERSON WHO INVENTED THE CHARACTER. DaveB’s decisions on V are word of god. I havent said anything that is inconsistent with what’s been in the comic so far, or inconsistent with anything DaveB has said in his own comments.
Everything I said is based ENTIRELY on what he’s already done, and how he keeps coming up with new powers as he needs them ‘just because’ – based on ‘I have power to burn.’ (which is something -keeps on repeating-). So no, I’m not saying I know his creation better than he does by a long shot. I’m just giving constructive criticism that I feel his creation (Vehemence) is becoming boring to a significant amount of readers (of which I am one, and admittedly a verbose one). And I’ve said, multiple MULTIPLE times now, that I hope he doesnt resolve this with a deus ex machina. I have not said anything like ‘you better do this this way!’ or some moronic kindergartenish statement like that. My ‘presumptions’ of ‘power to burn’ are based not on presumptions at all – they’re based on the fact that Vehemence has now said given that reasoning, IN THE COMIC ITSELF – about 3 times or more, each time he sponteously makes a new power (the only time he hasnt so far was when he made pants, though that power seems a lot about lampshaded humor on the Hulk’s ‘magic pants’
It’s pretty irritating also that you can’t seem to speak to what I’m saying without changing around what you think I’m saying. You’re trying, VERY incorrectly, to re-interpret what I’ve said as my demanding that DaveB change his story. Or that I think DaveB hasnt thought out a way to resolve this in a consistent way. I havent said that ONCE. I’ve continually said that there’s becoming fewer and fewer ways to resolve this WITHOUT a deus ex machina, though a few big ones would involve the yellow comm ball finding an exploitable weakness (that wouldnt be d-e-m since the yellow comm ball’s powers have already been alluded to as having incredibly powerful truesight), or using Death Toll or Anvil somehow in a defensive manner until he does finally start ‘burning’ all this power he has to burn, because so far he hasnt been burning anything – he just keeps growing in power.
Everything I’ve said has been guesses as well – but they’re educated guesses based entirely on what’s already happened in the comic and what DaveB has said in his comments. You’re the one who seems to be ignorant when you resort to namecalling instead of acknowledging that some people might find Vehemence’s power creep to be getting -really- boring (and prohibitive to interesting non-idiot ball-carrying recurrences of V) if it goes on much longer.
Apparently you’re the type of person who sees constructive criticism as ‘trolling.’ I’m just saying that it’s getting VERY likely that this will be resolved with a deus ex machina, which would be disappointing. Also it’s been pretty much turning Maxima into a joke, when it was a nice change of pace to see a woman be the most powerful person in a comic book world and be very assured about it. V is displaying powers that he himself has never used, but suddenly he’s making counters to every conceivable action – it’s irritating to read, and makes him pretty broken as a character. Because even if they beat him WITHOUT relying on a deus ex machina to combat all of his DeM’s, there’s still the fact that he’s not that good as a recurring villain anymore, since the first thing they’d do if he shows up again is an immediate kill or orbit, or both. Not to mention this fight with JUST HIM has been going on for quite a while now, where there have been at least 3 good and well written options to finally beat him. And every time, he just sprouts a new power out of nowhere, always for the same reason ‘I have power to burn!’ – it’s the worst use of magic in comics, where magic has absolutely no downside.
Think of it like this…. if you’ve ever played the game Mage: The Acsension, they limit the nearly omnipotent potential of magic by the threat of Paradox. In DC comics, Dr Fate’s magic can be countered by chaos magic, and Zatanna can be countered by preventing her from being able to talk. Spectre is a broken character because he has no limits, but that’s why he’s almost never in anything. Because it’s no fun to see God-Man come in and twitch his left buttock and win, or undo well thought out plans.
Honestly, almost every single idea people have thought of, Vehemence can, based on what he’s done so far, just say ‘that might have worked before, but now I have power to burn and I can counter it.’
I am pretty sure that DaveB is able to take constructive criticism. It’s not like I’m saying ‘You suck, DaveB’ … if he couldnt take constructive criticism, I doubt there would be a comment section. And I’m not making assumptions. I have yet to make an assumption in fact. I’m just stating things which, based ONLY on what V has done so far, he’d be able to do to most of the ideas people have put forth, and how aside from a couple of ideas remaining, only a deus ex machina may beat V – and deus ex machina are awful resolutions, which would run counter to how well written the rest of the webcomic has been up until Vehemence’s power creep.
So you can chill instead. I’m sure DaveB loves you for standing up against the bully that you think I am for pointing out *gasp* that one character in his entire webcomic is becoming broken SO FAR. Geez, fanboys.
What I’m saying is that at this point you are ASSUMING there’s no downside because we haven’t seen one yet, you’re ASSUMING that the only solution is Deus ex Machina, and you’re yelling about Vehemence displaying powers we didn’t know about as if he’s a long-established character. I don’t love that Maxima’s first onscreen fight is so humbling, but I’m reserving judgment until I see Dave’s resolution, and recommend that you relax and do so as well.
Honestly, what you’re doing sounds less like constructive criticism and more “You should write the story I want to read!”
Again, I havent made -any- assumptions. You really need to read what I say before responding. I said, based on what he’s DONE so far, there are becoming fewer and fewer way to beat him that would NOT require a deus ex machina. Some possible way that wouldnt involve dem would be something involving the yellow comm ball to ferret out a weakness, and using Death Toll to nemesis him.
What I’m doing is constructive criticism. And I like the story. I have started hating the character of Vehemence though because he is becoming a broken (and BORING) character the longer this fight goes on, because every single strategy they have is countered by the same thing, over and over again ‘I have power to burn I have power to burn I have power to burn’
I pointed out a problem with the storyline, specified exactly the problem with and the dwindlign way to resolve it that wouldnt result in d-e-m. I have never said ‘you should write the story I want to read.’ Just hoping Dave doesnt use d-e-m because it would be a sign of lazy story construction, which stuff like silver age storylines used to rely on all the time (which is why silver age stories tended to be awfully done). That IS constructive criticism. Don’t jump on every single person (of which there are quite a few – I’ve just been the most verbose) who point it out. Because you keep doing personal attacks because other people are getting bored with how this fight is progressing with the SAME nebulous, all-encompassing counter.
I disagree with you on everything you say. First of all, it’s great that the team faces off against a character that they can’t simply beat into submission. I don’t mind a deus ex machina at all, I expect it to be a clever and IMO much more satisfying final.
Secondly, a character making good use of the abilities they have is awesome. So far, Vehemence actually only has one confirmed ability – powering up from violence around him. Magic is a skill you learn, and it takes two things – power and training.
Third, he’s not broken given that it takes quite a while until he’s powered up to the point where he can mop the floor with the team. They’ve had plenty of time where he could have been taken down with less violent means, even though they’re also – currently – not well suited for passive takedowns, as Dabbler noted.
Finally, you’re entitled to your opinions, just as I’m entitled to disagree with them. I read your opinion the first time, that’s more than enough by now. If you don’t like magic users, be prepared for more disappoints in the future.
Actually, Vehemence’s power is becoming an omnipotent power – it’s not ‘powering up from violence around him’ just. It’s ‘powering up from violence around him in order to accomplish any task, while at the same time getting stronger every second.’ For all his talk about ‘power to burn’ he doesnt seem to be BURNING off any power. IT just seems to keep growing. Burning should imply his use of power is more than what he’s intaking, but it’s the exact opposite.
Third, he is broken if he’s meant to be a recurring arch-villain, because unless the heroes use an idiot ball the next time he comes around, any rational hero’s first response would be to kill him with a lethal attack/orbital throw + lethal attack before he has a chance to make any sort of gloating threat. Which doesnt make for a good recurring character. ie, he’s broken. Plus for a lot of people (maybe not you, but a lot of people, he’s becoming INCREDIBLY boring to read about, because every single counter he does is ‘this would have worked before, but now it won’t because I’m creating a new counter to your attack because I have power to burn – by the way now I’m even stronger STILL.’ It’s a moot point that they’re not suited for passive takedowns, because at this point, he’s so powerful that there are no passive takedowns which can be used that he can’t just develop another power out of nowhere from his violence pool to counter that as well. Name a passive counter – I’ll give an idea, based on what he’s been saying, that can be used to counter it without it being a big assumption.
Finally, thank you for at least saying I (And other people who are getting so bored of Vehemence’s copy-cut-paste strategy) am entitled to my opinion. You most certainly are entitled to disagree as long as you don’t resort to ad hominem / personal attacks (like some people have). And I do like magic users. I just like them when they have weaknesses. Achilles heels. I hate ‘perfect people’ with no weaknesses in comics. They are boring as hell. And Vehemence is becoming a ‘perfect person’… he started as someone who had weaknesses and with every second the fight continues, he has no weaknesses left to exploit at all. Zatanna would be a boring, stupid character if she didnt need to speak backwards to cast magic. Because she has a limitation, she’s interesting.
Superman would be VERY boring if he had no weaknesses. No achilles heel hook. He needs a kryptonite factor – multiple ones, actually – magic, psionics, red solar radiation, and of course Kryptonite. Also using his own good nature against him (psychological, using hostages in a way that he can’t just save them all).
Dr. Strange IS a boring, stupid character because he pretty much is a god with no real weaknesses at all. Vehemence is getting to that route of magic – the route of ‘magic can do anything and has no downsides or costs whatsoever.’
Actually, the solution to beat Vehemence is pretty simple in basic concept…He feeds from the power from violent actions, so to defeat him would require rendering him passive, unable to take any actions that would feed him more power. Passivity is the key, but to use it, Vehemence himself must be rendered passive or apathetic, then be contained in an area that doesn’t provide any naturally-induced violence within his range that he can absorb it.
Even so, finding such a place is not going to be a permanent solution, as an unpredicted earthquake or violent thunderstorm in the area could start powering him up again. Even if V himself is still passive, he can still build up the power but would still be a threat if the method to make him passive wears off for any reason. He still qualifies as a re-curring villain *because* there’s no way that Archon has the means to ensure that passive state of mind AND isolation.
You call Dr. Strange boring, but his inherent weakness is that he’s still *human* & has all of the regular human failings…At one point, he destroyed his most powerful talismans to stop an evil threat, only to find that those very same talismans were *needed* to prevent future evil from encroaching. In such a circumstance, Strange had to start relying on evil Powers for his energies & also *turned* evil himself. His own Humanity was not only his weakness, but it’s also a source of strength.
If you find it boring that the struggle to define & understand what humanity *is,* then what kind of self-imposed disconnect from your own humanity are you alluding to? In such a light, perhaps you could search for a short story that addresses the concept of a “willful disconnect” leading to the “unpardonable sin” with the name “Ethan Brand” for your search term.
Going to respond by paragraphs.
1st paragraph) I have no problem with that, if they had some sort of ability to pacify him, especially at the levels of sheer oh my god power he’s now at – which they don’t unfortunately. It feels like if they suddenly came up with a person who could do that, it would be hard to not make it look like a deus ex machina.
2nd paragraph) That’s sort of my point of why I feel Vehemence is broken now – there’s no real way to contain him WITHOUT killing him immediately, assuming they defeat him or turn him back this time. Unless the heroes are handed the idiot ball and run with it (see TV Tropes for definition of idiot ball) – and DaveB does generally seem too trope savvy to do that, so the logical thing for them to do would be to kill him immediately, which breaks him for being a recurring character.
3) Dr Strange is so incredibly boring. He’s no longer just a human. He’s beaten Galactus. He’s beaten gods. He has NO listed weaknesses at all. You’re no longer just ‘human’ once you’re in control of the fundamental forces of reality itself, with the power to shake the cosmos with a few mystic words or gestures from your mighty fingers. You’re basically a god then. And a god without any exploitable flaws, asside from plot-induced or character-induced stupidity that writers might have to force themselves to come up with so that Dr Strange doesnt say abra cadabera on the first page that the trouble starts and fixes everything by the next panel ‘by the hounds of el goranu or whatever mumbo jumbo he says next. He has no ‘kryptonite factor’ – when a person’s only weakness is ‘he risks becoming evil’ – that’s not really a weakness insofar as being an exploitable flaw for the other side (whether hero or villain) to beat him. He still winds up being an unstoppable god – just evil instead of good. And that’s just boring to read. You want a ‘regular human’ who actually has the flaws of a ‘regular human?’ – Batman. Tony Stark. Heck, I’ll even throw in a magic user by throwing in Zatanna (who herself is massively powered, but at least has an exploitable non-ephemeral weakness), who can be stopped by a chop to the throat, or pepper spray, or a gag.
4) I have no idea what you said in the fourth paragraph. I’ve read it three times.
That being said, she is more annoying than the others. But at least she’s not presented as ‘the ultimate everything of everything.’ She’s good at a little (operative words – ‘good’ and ‘a little’) of everything… not THE BEST AT EVERYTHING BECAUSE …. JUST BECAUSE. :)
Can’t wait for the next update. Hopefully soon.
Updates are Mondays and Thursdays. So…. I’m guessing the next update will be Thursday.
**Still yawning**
When you hit me, it makes me stronger!
When I hit you, it makes me stronger!
When I shrug off a spell, it makes me stronger!
When I grow 10′ tall, it makes me stronger!
When I root myself to the Earth, it makes me stronger!
When you blow off my arm, it makes me stronger!
When I regenerate, it makes me stronger!
When I zap you with electricity, it makes me stronger!
When Halo suffocates me in a force field, it makes me stronger!
Did I miss anything?
When I exaggerate, [b]it makes me more annoying![/b]
Wow, attacking someone who’s just pointing out a valid criticism.
Not really. Big V never said that zapping Maxima with electricity made him stronger, he thought it made her weaker. Exaggeration. He’s never been suffocated in Halo’s shield (and can’t be in it’s current skill level at least). Another Exaggeration.
Ok. Valid point, but he wasnt being annoying. Most of what he said was valid.
you hit him – he gets stronger
he hits you – he gets stronger
he shrugs off an attacking spell – he gets stronger
he roots himself to an earth doesnt make him stronger, but Maxima’s attempt to throw him into space does.
you blow off his arm – it makes him a lot stronger.
he regenerates – it makes him stronger (which it does because it regenerates as a metal colossus-esque arm)
he electro-zaps – it makes him stronger (it’s violence. Violence makes him stronger – he doesnt have to SAY it – you can see he’s attacking, and he said when he attacks it makes him stronger)
The only exxagerations he made were:
1) ‘grow 10 feet tall it makes him stronger’ (although I’m pretty sure someone who’s 10 feet tall is stronger than someone who’s 6 feet tall, so maybe it’s not so much of an exxageration
2) Halo suffocates him in a force field, it makes him stronger – ok that’s an exxageration, only because Halo CANT trap him in a force field. And if she could, it might or might not arguably be considered violence. But less so than the other violence that’s been happening. Moot point since she can’t do it
So the two things which are arguably exxagerations arent exactly major exxagerations, and that does NOT make him annoying. What -is- annoying is when people make valid criticisms, and get personally attacked.
…exaggeration is spelled with one x…
…I’m sorry…
No, you were right to correct me. I am shamed and will commit sepuku for my spelling error.
And now I have to commit seppuku for spelling seppuku wrong as well. Double seppuku.
Bah, used the wrong code. Point is I’m really tired of people declaring that an interesting and challenging villain concept is ‘overpowered’ or ‘boring’. And god, how often the same people go ‘I don’t like Max either, she’s too powerful’.
Have you people considered that maybe your issues are with superhero comics as a genre?
It’s the RPG folks that usually cringe when they think about whether one character or another could be built with the same amount of points in the system –aka the 350 pt campaign rule from Champions.
In that, you could weenie out more points for powers by having more disadvantages –the more often applicable, the more points given. Lets see for V … Hunted by everyone 20, Allergic to grammar mistakes 10, Loses Power when not in contact with solid footing (guess) 15…
He started as an interesting and challenging character. He’s BECOME a walking Dragonball Z power creep character. Which is not interesting – it’s irritating and makes the likelihood of needing to pull a deus ex machina all the more likely. Which would suck since DaveB’s been very careful about pointing out tropes via the genre savvy characters so as to AVOID those tropes.
Also, I happen to really like that Max is uber-powerful – mainly because she’s female and it’s a nice change from anything in the comics, where even powerful females invariably become damsels in distress or are weaker than the males if the power is based on PHYSICAL power. In the comics, the powerful women are almost always powerful from non-physical mght. Martial arts skill, psionics, force fields, etc. But have a storyline where it’s spelled out that Supergirl is literally stronger and faster than Superman, and the comic book fanboys and closet chauvanists suddenly start whining, and they bring out tired old cliches about how ‘Superman just was holding back, ignoring internal monologues and situations where it would have made no sense for him to hold back.
On this webcomic, they were not doing that. I liked that.
And to counter what you said, I’m tired of people like you who see any criticism, however VALID, and take it as some sort of whining attack because of some ingrained rabid fanboyism. Have you considered that maybe YOUR issues are with an inability to think about thinks critically? Name a comic – I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to tell you everything about the character. But I’m not going to say all comics are well written, or don’t have any flaws, even in characters that ARE well written. Most of Silver Age comics are complete DeM, for example. A lot of Marvel stuff at the cosmic level tends to get like that as well, with powers ‘as needed’ instead of having some sort of consistency. It’s not a ‘problem’ to point that out – and a good author (Which DaveB is) is going to be secure enough to hear them without needing you to be a white knight fanboy in shining armor for him.
I don’t see your criticism as valid, though. Valid criticism focuses on the way he writes a character or scene or plot. Your problem is with the core idea behind Vehemence, so rather than encouraging him to write better, you are encouraging him to write a different story. Perhaps I am overreacting, but webcomic fans do this a lot, with or without realizing it, and it’s a major peeve of mine. All your grievances with Vehemence seem in the end to be with the idea of him being a dangerously unstoppable magical and physical force, which is exactly what Dave wants him to be. You’re asking him to write a different story.
Well, I don’t see your defense as valid. The first villain should not be an unstoppable ubermensch who requires deus ex machina to defeat.
Again, so you can understand my problem with this – if a deus ex machina is required to beat the bad guy, it’s boring for the readers and the solution would feel like a cop out. I’m not asking anyone to write a different story. I’m just hoping he doesnt have all this resolved by deus ex machina, which it seems like it’s leading towards. I’m wondering how much more I have to say the words ‘deus ex machina’ before you understand what my criticism is about.
Your defense comes off very largely like fanboyism, and that’s a major peeve of mine.
I guess there is a large threat of deus ex machina simply because the comic hasn’t been going on long enough for us to know too much the full range of resources and back up personnel ARC can draw on.
But if it does end up being a totally unforeshadowed event (one of the requirements for Deus Ex Machina) it would be odd, almost like Dave wanted it to be that way, for as long as he has those two nicely foreshadowed “Unknown Orbs” floating around he basically can’t write himself into a corner. Those two orbs are “get out of Deus Ex Machina free cards” basically.
If it goes that route I will be walking around totally scratching my head for days. But I think all the hints to Sydney’s out of the box thinking and previous strategic triumph are more likely. (which leads to its own problems with characterization… *sigh* )
I suppose, but it would really seem weird if she suddenly knew how to use those orbs to stop Vehemence after multiple references to how she has no idea what they do, unless there’s some sort of yellow comm ball way to tell her ‘use this orb to beat this guy’
btw my problem isnt the core idea behind Vehemence. It’s how long this is being drawn out with the same counter repeatedly with new powers from the same ‘I have power to burn’ reasoning each time. And the increasing risk of DeM. Though DaveB might just be intentionally ticking off all of the non-DeM methods intentionally until he gets to one of the ones which will work.
A lot of which commenters have mentioned quite a bit
Like Peggy shooting his other eye (so DaveB had drawn that he had already anticipated that idea, and wanted to show that it won’t work)
Then the whole ‘throwing into orbit thing (which I’m pretty sure people had also made a guess at)
Then the ‘law of diminishing returns’ (which I think a few people mentioned as well – unfortunately she didnt go for the head, but I guess that’s a hero thing, though Maxima seems to have a fighting style of being a soldier, not just a ‘hero’ – so it was a little surprising she didn’t go for a kill shot)
And he’s already expressly said, based on not wanting a DeM with Sydney’s shield, that she isnt going to be able to form a shield around him (which I’m actually quite relieved about after all the stuff he said about the limitations on the shield)
Other people have mentioned Death Toll nemesis, or a ‘limit to how much can be absorbed’ or the yellow comm ball discovering a weakness – all of which would NOT be DeM’s. Though there could obviously be more that the readers havent thought of that DaveB has planned.
Actually, I suspect that Sydney making herself scarce and using the illusion version of herself in place to provoke V into attacking it? Possibility of a serious adverse effect on his powers.
Interesting. How would that weaken him though – him attacking stuff just makes him stronger, unless he was lying about that.
Which is a valid idea – he could be lying about violence that he does making him stronger and he just needs outside violence. Unless DaveB says otherwise, it’s a possible weak point. Very tiny weak point which would involve just doing a lot of blocking and using Anvil’s absorption (and Sydney’s lighthook when she gets thrown away) and maybe Death Toll’s unconscious body a lot.
False violence – think about it; not actually attacking anything, but going through the motions. No contact, no injuries, no destruction. No anything to actually absorb from.
Just dropped in to say… great artwork on the metal arm!
1. Dave, can the next pinup be of Vehemence as a university professor? I feel like he would rock the tweed. Or no, you know what, he would be more stylish than that. Anyway, he has all the mannerisms of an awesome prof.
2. Was Vehemence in the Middle East at some point? He mentioned the LA race riots, but a full on war (or “police action,” or whatever the hell my nation’s oh-so-opaque government is calling it these days) seems like it would have more violence than V could ever want. Especially if there were supers involved, as Maxima stated earlier in the press conference. Or maybe Africa? I know the genocide in Sudan was going on a little later than that. Although V seems like he wouldn’t want to be involved with that kind of thing. He likes a fight, but I think he’s too decent to involve himself in atrocities like that. Then again, LA race riots…
As long as Dave continues to write the comic, I’m pretty certain that he’s already worked out plenty of background material for Vehemence that he hasn’t revealed yet…You know, the whole “origin story” & his lifestyle before he met up with Archon.
So far, what Dave *has* revealed is pretty thin…It *has* to be that way for his first appearance, unless Dave was going to wind up scripting the next 2 or 3 *years* posting a whole bunch of talking. This is a super-hero genre & it just doesn’t work that way unless there’s some fighting once in a while.
;)
Have him team up with Professor Badass and those students won’t know what hit them…
I am disappointed he did not sprout a crystal unicorn horn from the symbol on his brow, thats where the other crystals were sprouting from.
If you look, at earlier pages, some of those circular marks *appeared* on the spots where the crystals emerge…There weren’t so many of those “circular” marks *before* he sprouts those spikes. Even when he first replaced his arm, the marks were only 1 on the back of his hand, 1 on his forearm & 1 on his shoulder…Exactly the same as what his *right* arm shows.
Now that he’s sprouted those spikes, there are *more* of those circular marks than there was before.
Also for the record, I’m thinking magic is going to be V’s downfall here. Transmuting new pants from destroyed pants and shoes is one thing, and clearly something he knew he could do, but now Vehemence is recklessly using magic he’s never had the power to use before, and I think that’s gonna backfire on him.
That would be interesting, actually.
Another interesting way could be to find that he actually has a ‘cap’ and if he goes past it, his vehemic energy will leave him and weaken him.
Sort of like how it Sarda in 8-Bit Theater. Or that one comic where the Hulk got so mad, he became Psycho Hulk, then basically passed out from sheer rage. Or where Captain Atom tries to absorb too much radiation and explodes, which leaves him weakened and almost kills him in the process.
how it Sarda = how it happened to Sarda
I was thinking about that, too. It preserves him as a dangerous villain that you want to run away from rather than engage, too, so long as he’s built up enough steam before getting there– fighting him to his cap is not worth the collateral damage and risk to life and limb as opposed to just getting away from him and preventing him from engaging in violence that will actually power him up like this.
A lot of people were suggesting it as a plan, that the team should TRY to get him to his cap. And that’s a terrible plan when you don’t know if he has a cap at all, or what happens when he hits it– there could be just a cap after which he can’t absorb more energy. Assuming he can be overloaded is unwise (since if he can’t, all you’ve done is handed him the keys to the kingdom), and I’m glad the team doesn’t seem to be deliberately seeking that strategy. But if he just hits it and goes “oh fuck” because he didn’t know he had one…
Could be another interesting way to go, getting a mana overload. The problem I see is… I can’t imagine a vehemic energy overload would NOT cause massive damage to a large surrounding area. There’s no way it wouldn’t be incredibly violent.
Yeah. I’m just trying to guess at way to beat him which would let him still be a recurring character who they wouldnt just one-shot because he’s too dangerous with infinite potential power, without relying on three latin words which I would rather not repeat for the 96th time :)
And doing something like making him have a ‘mana overload’ would be a pretty apropos trope to employ for a genre savvy opponent. Plus like you said, it preserves him as a dangerous villain for the future that you want to run away from rather than engage, rather than say ‘no matter what happens he’s just going to get stronger until he reaches infinite strength, we have to kill him RIGHT NOW.’
Leela: It’s not working! He’s gaining strength from our weapons!
Fry: Like a balloon, and… something bad happens!
– Futurama – Episode “Where No Fan has Gone Before”
Sarda: This… this isnt right.
Black Mage: Thanks for the update, spanky.
Sarda: This… will not be…
Thief: Dammit. How was he able —
Sarda: I am Sarda. And I am older than time. I possess a power beyond mortal imagination. My plans will not be undone by such amateur-hour horsesht as absorbing too much power and exploding. I am Sarda. My will be done.
Black Mage: I guess he has given this a few billion years more thought than we have.
Sarda *Boom, explodes* (well at least his head explodes and gets replaced by Chaos – long story)
– 8-Bit Theater, episode 1179
Fry: Usually on Star Trek, they came up with a complicated plan and explained it with a simple analogy.
Leela: Hmm, if we can re-route engine power through the primary weapons and configure them to Melllvar’s frequency, that should overload his electro-quantum structure.
Bender: Like putting too much air into a balloon!
Fry: Of course! It’s all so simple!
Also was used in the first Ghostbusters movie against Gozer.
This is my first time posting, so hi guys :)
First off: the whole “the attention Maxima draws has soured her to the opposite gender” thing first made me think that she’s a lesbian. That’s probably not true, but what the heck, Sydney is a vegetarian/pescetarian.
Secondly: I had a freaking dream about this. I didn’t think I was that obsessed with this comic but what the heck, Dave, you’re doing something right. So Maxima found out Arcswat was secretly evil and killed little unicorn sky bison (and probably other things too) and was leaving in the night but I found out and tagged along and we fought evil Arcswat together. And then they fought back with the other supers who thought WE were evil, and Maxima freaking died. So this page is bringing back all the chummy feelings I had in the dream and it is so. freakishly. weird.
Sorry for the long post.
Wha?
I know right
You’re like… totally zen, man. Totally.
Btw I never heard of the term pescetarian and had to google it.
I learned something!
Wow, I wish I knew dream interpretation :)
Clearly I am psychic, Dave is going to make Arcswat evil and Maxima revolt. Or maybe I just like this comic a liiiiittle bit too much.
Considering the novels that I’ve written in constructive criticism about Vehemence on the comments so far, and the additional novels I’ve written when attacked by some people who say ‘oh noes, someone’s saying this is getting irritating, she’s evil – burn her with fire (or flames)’ – I think I might like this comic a liiiiittle too much to when I’ve spent this much time commenting on it. Especially since this is the first time I’ve commented on here in the 2+ or so years I’ve been reading :)
Yeah, I’m a fan. For me, the whole Vehemence thing is a little annoying, but Dave is right- if we go back in the future it will be perfectly paced. And the main annoying thing is that I CANNOT think of any way to beat him. And Maxima is fine because at least she has to balance out her powers, right? Yeah, I’m a pretty big fan of Maxima too… whoaa who would have guessed.
I only can think of about … 3 so far now that Dave’s shown three of the ones I was thinking of were utterly ineffective (the throwing into orbit and the blinding him and the doing so much damage that he’s a superpowered vegetable)
The other four that I can guess at are:
1) Using Death Toll’s unconscious body, using Lighthook to use him like a marionette, to somehow counter and siphon out the vehemic energy from Vehemence
2) Max switching to full energy blast and blasting his head at the last second – and he can’t reform i (hopefully) – this idea, I don’t personally think is likely given how DaveB wants him to be a recurring villain, he’s said in the comments
3) the Yellow comm ball’s ‘orphaned node’ that she filled might show a person’s achilles heel, which then would mean it’s not a deus ex machina because there’s at least a reason for it that’s been foreshadowed or had a checkov’s gun
4) “Like a balloon that fills with too much air, then pops!” – Vehemence absorbs so much violent energy (beyond what he’s ever taken in before) that it literally explodes in him, and he loses most of it and is weakened enough to be taken down by some non-violent means (like another shot from the mummy shot, or being wrapped up by lighthook, or being knocked out by Maxima) – it’s conceivable, given V keeps saying he’s never had THIS much power.
Those are the four other ideas I can GUESS at at least.
Yeah, or maybe one of her unidentified balls takes away someone’s power? Honestly I think it has something to do with his tattoos, it looks like the source/manifestation of his powers. Also, Sydney is mysteriously absent from this page…
My guess is that I don’t think that DaveB is going to use one of Sydney’s unknown orbs to solve everything. Possible though but if it happened, I’m guessing that DaveB would make some explanation of how she’d figure out something like that given all the build-up about how she has no idea what the other two do because f- them.
oh, and what happened to Vehemence’s arm’s blood on Maxima’s face, and her bloody nose? Seems like a continuity error, because there was too much blood for her to just wipe off between panels.
Sydney is overdue to find out he’s powered by pain, and her new power is to ease pain. Or see into V’s past for clues or something…
But he’s not, he’s powered by violence.
Why is it that when you people hear “he’s powered by violence”, you immediately go “Okay, so he’s powered by something RELATED to violence!”
One reason could be that some of us begin to think he may have been playing the old “I am a liar.” “OK, when I said that I was lying.” game.
I think Sydney should use the orb that reveals the true form of someone. Vs powers are off the chart so maybe they really don’t exist at all, V is able to make them think he has power. Actually, he is standing on a building a couple blocks away just watching the team fight nothing.
Nah, the writer wouldn’t pull something that cheesy.
I am doubling my Patron contribution (not large) after reading some of these comments. The pacing is weirder since the battle started and perhaps better in a book. I still enjoy seeing this twice a week.
Funnily enough, I think that makes sense: he would WANT to see his foes get better. He wants to kick the crap out of them to get more power, not to kill them.
If they get stronger to fight him, he gets stronger when he fights them again.
It’s kind of a win-win so long as he doesn’t kill off his challengers.
And as long as he isn’t killed. After this he won’t be able to pick his battles only in such a way that the odds are stacked in his favor.
Just a word to all those suggesting Anvil to take him out, Max may not be helpless against zapping but she would be.
One question about his regeneration ability: is it always on, or does it require a certain minimum of stored energy? If it’s the former, he totally should start fights by chopping his arms and legs of…
Based on what he said, his regeneration is likely separate from his ability to absorb energy from violence.
There are probably several restrictions on his regeneration.
I’d think that the part regenerated would gain resistance to whatever caused the injury but that the regeneration would not stack.
For example, if someone were to now cut off his regenerated arm by freezing it and shattering it then the arm would regenerate with increased cold resistance but would lose it’s resistance to Maxima’s energy blast attacks.
It’s almost certain that his ability to regen requires him to have acquired a certain amount of energy. How much that is is another unknown. Would he have been able to heal his eye earlier in the fight? Perhaps. When? No idea…
Another interesting question is if the regen is a consciously triggered event or an ability triggered by the amount of damage taken. If it require a conscious effort to regen then it can be neutralized by rendering him unconscious or by preventing him from concentrating. It would also mean that blasting his head off would be sure to kill him, something that has been discussed in the comments before.
It has been suggested that destroying his head might result in him regenerating but not retaining his current personality. Alternatively he regenerates by magic actually retaining all memory and personality traits. A third theory is that V either is in a symbiotic relationship with or has trapped and subdued a demonic creature, and that destroying his head would either set the demon free or leave it in control of his body.
Didn’t read all the comments, but my quick spot check hasn’t seen anyone suggest that Sydney just blindly activate her other two Orbs. We know they do something, but not what. What if one is an energy absorber? Vehemic energy, perhaps tantric energy? Just a thought I’ve been having.
It’s not like the situation can be made that much worse at this point, after all!
or perhaps just energy in general. after all they level up so she can put a point in different types of absorption. perhaps it might absorb light creating a black hole that absorbs mater.
that is not how black holes work at ALL
One thing that hasn’t been used yet is mental powers. those can pretty much ruin anyone’s day.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke
Ignore that comment. Was supposed to be part of one of the exchanges far above.
My Vote:
Use Who the Bell Tolls as a meat shield and Nemeses his ass.
Theme song: what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.