Grrl Power #608 – Twofer
Well, I guess Deus delivers as advertised.
I decided on this page that Sciona can retract her wings down to something that looks like those Chinese spirit light things. Just cause, I don’t know, it’d be more convenient. For her, cause she wouldn’t have to worry about knocking her lamp over every time she got home and turned around to lock the door. Also for me, artistically at least.
So a few clarifying points about the last page, which garnered some, ah, mixed reactions. First off, I’m not defending any of the characters involved. It was definitely shady. Deus is a cad, and he knows what he wants and is good at getting it. But to clarify:
1) Sciona was not tied up at all. Some people seemed to think she was bound. I was originally going to make her nude under her armor, but then I decided to make it like she’s got some kind of liquid bodysuit in between her and the armor. Those are supposed to be gloopy tendrils of it retracting from her as she steps out of it. Drawing a sequence of things happening that would hugely benefit from animation is tough when you only have so much space on a page. I could have maybe done a longer shot once she had cleared the armor, but it didn’t occur to me people might think she was tied up, and also I would have had to put something over her bits, like hair hanging over her nurps, but in reality, hair doesn’t really come to rest there unless it’s taped. (or I guess it could cover stuff if she was slouching a bit) Or I could have put some obnoxious word bubbles in the way I guess.
2) Sciona wasn’t obligated to take a roll in the hay with him. He said he doubted she could meet his price tag, but she was free to leave and go knock over a bank or come back with a couple of Rembrandts under her arm. It was definitely the most expedient route, however. I guess some people thought Vale was there to try and kill her if she didn’t accept the deal or something, but the page doesn’t really make that clear one way or the other.
Again, not defending it.
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I don’t understand people being surprised at bad guys doing bad things, but I do understand people losing some ‘respect’ for Deus and Sciona and Vale. I still think they are cool, just not the specific ‘flavour’ of cool I thought before.
However, keep in mind that Dave has not introduced ANY cool character without giving them at least one ‘uncool’ and usually highly comedic scene. He seems to love playing to the Tropes and then subverting them.
+1
+1
+1
No wonder I fell in love with this comic the first time I read one! Subverting tropes is my favorite! The physically strongest character I ever created was a woman, despite the comics always having the female super almost as strong as the male lead; when playing a Superman type fighting Wild Cards’ Great and Powerful Turtle, I didn’t bother trying to hit the flying battletank, I cut it in half with heat vision (I was being controlled pheremonically, and while I questioned whether it would actually work, I played it full force anyway); and when I created a psychic character, I based him partially off Aquaman and Lori Lemaris as much as other more classic psychics…
If Deus is the embodiment of this trope I think I’m gonna keel over.
Vale: “I’ll rip my ears out if you say that again.”
why did I click that link? I knew where it went and I still clicked it. It cost me half an hour.
Be that as it may, Sciona looks like she needs more recovery time before doing that again.
Nobody has added Grrl Power to the Webcomic category of that page. I’ll be helpful and add it :)
Nevermind. This scene isn’t a metaphor. It’s just a regular (albeit subdued) sex scene.
It isn’t necessarily a metaphor, just “Any speculative fiction element that requires sex to work.”
Of course, there’s other things that don’t explicitly require it. Like, say, memory-reading that has a very short range and needs the other person’s mental def to be down. Would explain a lot.
I think Deus IS a super, and his power is sex.
Wouldn’t that make him an Incubus?
There are a lot of male and female supernatural beings with sex powers aside from the Incubus and Succubus,
some tamer…some far worse.
Remember Vehemence? He had the innate ability to power up from violence. Deus might have an innate superpower where he becomes stronger the more women he bangs.
That could make a lot of sense.
i clickeded it well there goes my night
am i the only one getting the impression sciona is trying to both save face (trying to buy recovery time without being obvious about it) and enjoying the view, not asking for a round 17?
That is how I read it. Although I would hesitate to put a round number on it.
Speaking the number of rounds, I thought Deus would be dressed in some kind of… how would you say it? “Morning gown” ?
I don’t know about supers, but I would not be comfortable in boxers in his moment.
He DOES certainly seem the type to be wearing something more like a “smoking jacket”, or some sort of fancy, wealthy-person bathrobe.
So, it wasn’t only me, after all. Thanks!
Gods damn it Dave XD.
You are making me root for the damn villains at this rate! XD XD XD
Oh, and I am now firmly in the camp of “The above scene is highly important because it subtly establishes Deus’ actual super power.” For serious.
His Super power is… the Retractable Penis? o_O
Pornomancer!
Maybe Deus is a Satyr or Incubus, and unlike Decollete or Dabbler, prefers to be in his glamour 24/7
The author has specifically stated that there are no incubi in this setting. All succubi are female.
But Satyr is a possibility, if his hairy legs and hooves are indeed concealed by an illusion.
And his comment about ‘illusionists being rare’ would have an additional irony.
I’ve read over the comments from both today and yesterday, and I want to bring up a point. Not a point about the comic per se, but a point about the readers. Most of the readers were fine with the Deus/Sciona scene, but a large portion of the people with feminine usernames found the scene very uncomfortable.
I think it’s important that you understand that from many women’s point of view, this scene was icky and borderline coercive. If that’s what you wanted to do with Deus’s character, then great! You succeeded! If it’s not, then perhaps it would be a good idea to discuss scenes like this with a woman whom you trust before you post in order to make sure you’re communicating what you intend.
That is all!
I don’t think It was nearly as coersive as it might look at a glance. Sciona had choices. It’s not like Deus stuck a gun to her head or anything like that.
For one, she could have left & come back to try stealing it (which would be an option for the villainous-minded).
She could have walked away & tried to find a close alternative to what she was after.
If Sciona had first told Deus what she was after, he wouldn’t have needed to try “renting” a look at his list (Although that also brings to question how much Sciona could trust his word on that).
She didn’t even try to offer him a counter-proposal…That is, she didn’t try bargaining.
Since it was pretty obvious to Sciona that fighting Vale would have been pointless right now & didn’t even consider coming back later & better prepared (after getting a closer look at Vale’s abilities).
There were other alternatives for Sciona, but she chose that one
At the same time though, Dave is the writer. He has full control of what happens and while there’s following the characters’ natures, he still decides what they say and do. So it’s important to know Dave’s thoughts and reasoning behind the scene- which to me, a female reader, felt like a shot from left field since it sort of felt like it made Sciona have less character for accepting the deal. Like the deal seems like something in character to me for Deus to make. But it feels weird that Sciona accepted it the way she did. It felt… off somehow. The dialogue in the scene just made it feel like she dropped everything to have steamy sex instead.
In the end though, I’m not Dave. I’m just the reader who doesn’t know the characters other than what we’re shown, and what I make of it. It probably doesn’t help I’m asexual, so sex stuff for me can be a bit of a foreign language to me at times.
You don’t have to be a woman to find the scene icky. I used that term myself. Dave had a reply, on the previous comic, that it was his intention to show villains doing villainous things. So you will find that anybody, regardless of their gender, will find the actions to be uncomfortable. Assuming that they are moral people.
There are others though who will simply relish the power that Deus has, through his money (and looks/physique) and wish that they could do that too. Which makes the rest of us all that more uncomfortable.
But, bear in mind that prior to this Deus was coming across as an altruistic business man. One who ruthlessly killed a dictator, but ultimately improved the lives of millions in doing that.
Likewise, up until today, there was perfectly reasonable speculation that Deus may have likewise been ruthless in acquiring the artefacts, simply to prevent them falling into the wrong hands.
Meaning that the comic had been showing him to potentially be heroic. Now though we see though that he is interested in using his wealth and power to satisfy his own distasteful cravings* and does not care about doing so in an extremely unsociable way. On top of which he has just offered a mass-murderess** her pick of the most apocalyptic and evil artefacts on the planet. And clearly is going to help her track down her chosen one.
So the author has clearly intended to shift Deus from his ambiguous state clearly into the villain camp. Just a villain who keeps a squeaky clean public image, but is not shy about showing his true self to other villains, behind closed doors.
As for the ‘borderline coercive’, as you have read all the comments you will have seen the oft-repeated counters that ‘there is no coercion as Sciona was free to pay, have sex or leave, at her choice’. Your comment though does reinforce my belief that DaveB should tweak the dialogue, on the previous page, to emphasise that Sciona can leave unimpeded at any time. Precisely to avoid that misconception.
I respect artistic integrity in leaving things as written, but it is a shame to have the scene feeling coercive to so many people, when that is not the intent. Icky yes, but not forced or under duress.
It is worth mentioning that one of the most prolific commentators pointing out that it was not coercion is Pander, who may not have a female name, but is. However she is a highly trained senior lawyer, who is well versed in analysing situations logically, rather than emotively.
So I appreciate the points you are making about how different females in general will read these scenes, to guys. Which is understandable, given that women generally approaching social interactions from a more emotive point of view, than the logic-dominated approach guys tend to. Doubtless with numerous exceptions, on both sides.
Which, from that point of view, makes this an interesting scene in its own right. Dave does often choose to create scenes which blur boundaries in social behaviour. In this case doing so in a way that polarises the readership, apparently on gender lines.
I am sure he does talk through scenes with his wife, at the very least. However I am glad that whether he does or does not, that he chooses to write the story from his vision, rather than as the chairman of a committee.
* He knows Sciona to be a murderess, yet is still turned on by her.
** And no I am not going to put ‘attempted’ in front of it every time I type that. If she tries to do the act that is what she is. The fact that there were more competent people to stop her does not improve her character.
Thanks Yorp. I didn’t feel like repeating what coercion means for the umpteenth time :)
(also as a woman I didn’t find the scene ‘icky’ :) )
i am going to be as uncharitable as possible here and just say it. I also read most the comments, and the conclusion I came to wasn’t the people who thought the scene was icky are women. My conclusion was most of them were feminists. Most of them sounded self righteous. Most of them drew conclusions based on evidence that wasn’t there. Many smacked of feminist dogma. And most of them, when given the choice, decided against giving Dave the benefit of the doubt like he deserves and jumped to the most negative (and preposterous) conclusion possible. Drove me nuts. In spite of everything that came before, people still actually thought a rape scene was incoming, because of course they assumed it was going to be a rape scene. “What is this? A scene where a man has the upper hand over a woman? He must be trying to rape her!” It was all disgusting to see, and horrendously unfair to David.
May have used ‘rape’ wrongly, butt to me, it wasn’t so much what happened butt what appeared to be happening
And, if ‘coercion’ does not mean ‘causing someone to do something they do something they did not want to do’ then what is it? Because Sci-fright clearly and nakedly showed she was not interested until Valeur {Vale+Voyeur} threatened her very well-being, and yes, that was a threat (and coercion does not have to use force or even physical threats, just like rape also does not have to use force or violence, and again, not saying rape happened)
Yes, Sci-fright could have left, and spent valuable time (at great risk to herself) openly and publically robbing a bank or museum, butt maybe she figured if she did that, it would give SmugD time to move his stolen items so he could then say, when she came back in several hours or days’ time, “See? It’s not here, butt thank you for the money and making yourself even more wanted by the authorities.” (and yes, that is just as much speculation as her going out and robbing a bank or museum)
Oh, one more thing: what could she possibly have to bargain with? o_O
Coercion is using force or threat of force to make someone do something they don’t want to do.
So no, Sciona was not coerced. Convincing is not coercing.
And yes, you used the word rape wrongly. Glad you’re acknowledging that finally. But it didnt even APPEAR to be rape. Seriously, it DOES water down the word when you act like the act of seduction, even crude seduction, is akin to rape. There’s no force used for it. There’s no threat of doing ANYTHING to her. You can’t even say there’s a threat of not letting her have the item – she can pay money for it instead. There’s no coercion at all, and I don’t know how I can explain it better than the multiple posts that I’ve made detailing what duress and coercion actually mean, which you have constantly seemed to gloss over.
He was not threatening to have her arrested, despite you making RAMPANT speculation that he could have. Yeah well he could have had her shot with automatic machine gun robots hidden i his office also. IT didnt happen, so why are you making that sort of unfounded speculation based on nothing? You do that a lot with Deus, it seems. Saying he robbed her hideouts, when that’s entirely in your fictionalized headcanon, etc. It doesnt help your arguments if your arguments are based very provably on things that simply didnt happen, either in the story or in DaveB’s blurbs.
“Oh, one more thing: what could she possibly have to bargain with? o_O”
1) Money
2) Finding something else that Deus wants as trade.
3) An agreement to work for Deus for some sort of mission that uses her particular talents – it’s known he employs superhumans and extraordinarily gifted people for his side missions and business ventures – why not a ‘whatever Sciona is’ – I’m sure her magical talents and abilities could be worth $80 million.
4) Even if #3 isnt an option, Sciona simply has no right to anything that Deus possesses. I don’t see why you don’t realize that.
I agree with you that there are a few changes Dave could have made that would have made the scene seems less coercive, and more “villains doing villain things.” After reading his explanation, I don’t think the situation Dave was trying to create was necessarily one that had to be avoided.
However, it did appear to me that Sciona was restrained and forcibly undressed, and some dialogue made it seem like Deus was trying to make Sciona have no alternative choices. If that’s what Dave was trying to do, I’m not even really upset at that, I’m only upset that he approached the situation so casually. People do things like that, and it’s something that could be part of a good comic, but it needs to be handled with respect.
One last thing: I know that my read of the situation is very much colored by my past, hence my “Harvey Weinstein” comment yesterday. I’ve *had* a man say, “Oh sure, I’ll help you out with you career”, then only when he had me alone reveal that there was a condition, and it was very much horizontal. It’s not upsetting that Dave went there. It’s upsetting that he went there without seeming to understand that he did, and without treating the situation with any gravitas whatsoever.
I’m not the only reader to have this reaction to this comic. It hit a lot of people this way.
Can you expect an author to take into account every individual’s traumatic past life events, and try not to replicate them in his comic? No, you can’t. But there’s something about being treated like a thing, and having someone using their power over you to try to railroad you into doing something you don’t want to do that’s particularly dehumanizing. Did I have a choice in my situation? Yes. And I left as soon as I could extract myself. Did Sciona have a choice? Yes, and she chose not to. Still, I’ve had people be downright cruel to me both before that incident and since, but I can tell you that nothing in my life has ever been hurtful in quite the same way. If no one’s ever done that to you, you probably can’t quite understand it. I certainly didn’t before my experience.
*Sigh*. I’m not doing this well. We’ve all been bullied, right? If Dave had written a bullying scene, you would expect it to have some weight to it. Dave’s been bullied, we’ve been bullied. We all know what it’s like to be in that situation. Dave probably doesn’t know what it’s like to have someone try to extract sex from them in exchange for something they… don’t need per se, but have been looking for for a long time and need to advance their career.
I think it’s reasonable to expect him to understand that the scene he wrote reflects several of his readers’ really upsetting life experiences, even if he didn’t mean to. I think it’s reasonable to expect him to take this angle into account when he writes similar situations in the future.
In the end, this is Dave’s comic. He can do whatever he wants with it. However, as a reader who really enjoys this comic, It’s also my responsibility to let him know when and how he’s being offensive. It’s his choice what to do with the information. Maybe he changes nothing, maybe he changes something. Either way, I’ve done my job: informing him. And he’s done his job: listening and considering whether what I have to say is worth considering for his creation or not.
Well said
You actually gave me the right words for what felt off for that scene. I just didn’t feel the gravity of the situation at all, it just felt like she accepted the sex and that was it. It didn’t feel like she had her goal in mind when she accepted and she looked a bit uncomfortable in one panel with Deus hanging over her shoulder with how both of them are posed. I think her shoulders are what giving me that feeling especially- with how they make her look like she’s smaller in the same way animals may flatten their ears, fur, stances, etc. to show they’re being submissive.
I appreciate your explanation, Hannah. I think the problem here is irony. Many people complained Dave didn’t edit/proofread his work, while simultaneously NOT EDITING/PROOFREADING/THINKING THROUGH THEIR OWN COMMENTS.
So it’s very refreshing and respectful to all of us here that you didn’t follow this trend.
Having said that, I liked this scene. I enjoyed Deus flaunting his power over Sciona; not because she’s a woman, but because she’s a murderer and a scumbag. Ironically, my reaction appears very misogynistic. It just isn’t though. I would have enjoyed this scene even if Sciona was a man, it simply would have been weirder.
I don’t know which I find more absurd, silly censoring objects or silly censoring poses.
Personally, I think censoring with the border-edge of the panel is the worst. It not only cuts off the view for that one place, but for everything else (that wouldn’t need censoring) in that direction too.
At least that isn’t absurd in-universe, like the above two examples.
The point of “pride” was raised… I think, I’d give you a little perspective…
In Russian, “pride” has at least two meanings: one(“гордость” per se) is skewed towards “honor” in its traditional meaning (there’s a more direct translation for “honor” exists, but we’re talking meaning), while the other(“гордыня”) is more clearly translated as “stupid pride”, literally: refusal to let go of their beliefs, which are not necessarily “wrong”, but greatly inappropriate for the moment.
Given the long-living creature as she is, she knows what’s good for her. And even being overly prideful, she should be able to choose between survival and pride. And choose correctly. Or won’t live long enough to make a difference. If “demands of nature”, so to say, affecting her operational capacity, I can easily imagine her indulging herself on occasion.
And this all assuming the participants were presented honestly. What, if not?
What if Deus really knows a thing or two about Sciona and her goals? What if they are not necessarily malicious, but, given her common behavior, are prone to unnecessary bloodshed? And “unnecessary” in the extreme sense of the word? What if he have his own plan to… defuse her and using his powers as best as he can to that end? And by “defuse” I mean, literally, making her “safe to handle.” Let her reach his goals, while saving the world in process? An artificer and blood mage of her caliber could be an asset in any company.
Lastly, what, if Vale “behind Deus” in more than one sense of the word?
I’ve long thought Vale is the real threat here, it makes sense for the setting. Pretty sure she’s deliberately hiding her full capabilities. Otherwise, certain people might find them familiar…
In panel 7 the mirror still has part of Vale’s shadow on it. (spooky!)
That’s because she never left
you need to update your copyright template. still says 2017.
I would like to say this is a great web comic, the fact that some people are losing their minds over bad guys being bad guys in a FICTIONAL world is kinda sad. Since she has blue skin I am surprised no one is screaming that a PoC is being used by evil white man. Please for the sake of sanity keep your damn SJW crap out of the comics we enjoy. My grandfather used to say “if you cannot say anything nice do not say anything at all” take that to heart and enjoy this great comic for what it is.
Anyone else had to check what ‘Sildenafil’ was? o_O
Not liking Valeur’s look on this page, a definite ScarJo look to and not a fan of the actress (don’t find her ugly or anything, just don’t find her appealing, either physically or professionally)
If DaveB intended her to look like ScarJo in that panel, well done, captured her look perfectly, if not, well, he did a great job accidentally capturing her look perfectly :D
i’m honestly surprised to now see any comments about “another satisfied customer” yet. sure Deus is still acting like a cad but at least he’s delivering on his end of the deal. (though one could argue that he is over delivering since he only offered to let her look through the inventory, not actually help her get her MacGuffin)
Ahh, but Sciona is craftier than she appears (from her previous anger driven responses). She made a counter proposal specifying that Deus provide the item, in the final panel here. Deus’s response did not refute that, and implied agreement, so should be taken as such.
Meaning that it is Deus’s problem to solve. He assumed, like Sciona, that the item was in his collection. So any additional cost or effort to acquire it are his to bear.
Baah…It’s your webcomic, your characters, your IP. YOU have them do what you intend them to do. If people are that offended, good for them.
The characters are no less menacing or less…..well, character-y than they were on the last page.
So someone gave someone else the bidness, for all people know, Sciona could have implanted a explody seed in Deus’ brain if/when any kissing occurred…or had one of those tiny wiener fish get inside his junk while bidness was being given. Point is, people gonna hate, let em hate. Don’t worry about explaining of feeling you need to defend yourself. You do you.
As a scythe user myself, I feel compelled to point out that if it is indeed the item that Wyrmil took, which seems most likely, then the name does not match its appearance. It was a sickle (being one handed), rather than a two-handed scythe.
Although items can indeed have misleading names. Not to mention that powerful artefacts can have different forms.
i’m sorry but i’m going to point out that deus reminds me of John Marcone from the dresden files
So, if he is a riff on that, would it make Deus one of the X-files?
This is an important point to your add to your perspective of combat operations forces: experiencing life-threatening crises reduces inhibitions. This also goes for accident survivors, and first-responders and ER/ICU personnel get a second order of effect by witnessing in close proximity. A study has shown this to be true in the immediate short term, but my experience and observations is that it’s more true for long term exposure (after you’ve seen the terrible things a body can be subjected to, body modesty and taboo against healthy copulation erode away.) Hell, history shows it’s true for entire populations; every catastrophic loss of population is followed by a baby boom, and the population doubles in another generation.
So prudery does not make sense with any of these people, except for Max (from an operational integrity standpoint, it’s a terribly irresponsible risk to involve intimacy dynamics.) Even if Dabbler weren’t a succubus, her sex drive and lack of inhibitions would be similar due to 1) being enough of a risk-taker to pursue an adventurer’s lifestyle in the first place and 2) experiencing the high risk of an adventurer’s lifestyle.
My point is that I don’t think a sexual exchange between these characters needs to be defended. Their sensibilities toward nudity and sexual expression aren’t as tender as you’d imagine, so this is just another negotiation to them.
Im… incredibly surprised at how many issues people are raising here. I saw literally no problems with how this scene unfolded. He charmed his way into her pants with raw charisma and confidence (and obviously the gadget shes looking for). She (under no kind of coercion O.o) accepted a deal that gets her what she wants and saves her an 8 figure sum of money. She even maintains some control with the subtle threat that he damn well better be as good as he says he is.
My first thought at this strip was damn im jealous. Not many guys can make my knees so weak i cant even stand :D
I hate Deus. The whole plot and setting seems contrived to kiss his arse at all times, despite him being utterly obnoxious.
I’m pretty sure Dave is setting him up to eventually fail spectacularly.
Paying eight figures would probably make my knees do that even if you had a dick. I’m really not sure if Deus is flattering himself as much as he thinks here.